Brad’s take on everything golf. He doesn’t hold back…

scroll down to “Equipment and the State of golf”
http://bradleyhughesgolf.com/

Brad's take on everything golf. He doesn't hold back…

scroll down to “Equipment and the State of golf”
http://bradleyhughesgolf.com/

Thanks for posting the link Danz, it’s pretty interesting reading.

I’m stuck between him sounding like a whinging bitter and twisted golfer (like Lagpressure) and an experienced player that has some very good points.

Look at Luke Donald, a great iron player, not a bomber, he’s No 3 right. The point about hitting over the trouble but then top players not hitting enough FW’s doesn’t equate.

The Bombers are Bubba, Johnson, Woodlands, etc, none in the top 10.

Not sure where I sit really.

Here’s a comparison up your alley stink: how would you feel if you devoted 20 full years to learning the finer nuances of trumpet only to watch electronic giants like Casio and Yamaha takeover and kill the fine brass-makers to dominate with digital product because it can be mass produced easier and allow substantially higher margins?

And then watch teenage IT geeks take over the music scene with their fully digital outfits, including sequencing trumpets loaded with samples from the finest trumpets ever made played in world’s best auditoriums. Sure, a tonne of expressiveness disappears, but 90% of the audience don’t realise or even care anyway, these things still sound great and can do stuff no maestro ever could.

You still love to take out your shiny piece when you’re at home, it’s your lifelong passion and it takes you to your special place, but you know that you’re only going to get gigs if you go digital.

I'm stuck between him sounding like a whinging bitter and twisted golfer (like Lagpressure) and an experienced player that has some very good points.

Agreed. Just surprised at the length of the ranting. I’m sure RTL would be on his side as would most of the 80’s & 90’s era players.

I agree with his sentiments because of the great courses of the world being “lengthened” to cater for technology. I don’t mind that people buy a new set every year to keep abreast of this technology though.
I especially agree with reducing the 460cc, but hey, none of his thoughts will ever happen, its a multi billion dollar industry…unfortunately.

Took me 5 minutes to scroll past Mrs Hughes…talk about batting above your average.

Here's a comparison up your alley stink: how would you feel if you devoted 20 full years to learning the finer nuances of trumpet only to watch electronic giants like Casio and Yamaha takeover and kill the fine brass-makers to dominate with digital product because it can be mass produced easier and allow substantially higher margins?

And then watch teenage IT geeks take over the music scene with their fully digital outfits, including sequencing trumpets loaded with samples from the finest trumpets ever made played in world's best auditoriums. Sure, a tonne of expressiveness disappears, but 90% of the audience don't realise or even care anyway, these things still sound great and can do stuff no maestro ever could.

You still love to take out your shiny piece when you're at home, it's your lifelong passion and it takes you to your special place, but you know that you're only going to get gigs if you go digital.

not exactly the best comparison. Good but has a few flaws. Golf equipment has been evolving since they started playing one form or another over 200 years ago. Sure Brad mastered his clubs and may feel duped as others come along with newer technology clubs. If he was SO good with the old clubs, he should be good enough to switch with evolving equipment.

The music comparison has more to do with the listening publics tastes and trends- nothing to do with someone being able to play a trumpet over a someone pressing buttons on a sampler.

I never heard John McEnroe or other tennis players complain about racquets going from wood to graphite etc. They adapted.

The comparison was for the master craftsmen who deeply loves his craft—no-one else. Those who play for money or ego or love the excitement of buying new toys in the hope they will score lower will welcome change and easily adapt. I’m not quite sure exactly what satisfaction people get out of buying game apart from money well spent, but each to their own.

Personally I’ve stopped playing a lot of competition golf because I don’t enjoy playing with titanium yet can’t compete with persimmon. So I play practice rounds now with the older clubs out and the course comes alive. No more repetitive wedge approaches, fairway bunkers are in play, greens suddenly don’t hold anymore and true strategy comes in because you’re now battling the architect’s brilliance rather than spitting on his blueprints.

Do you still ride in a horse and cart and watch black and white tv too?

Steb, your analogy was very close to happening in music, you have no idea how close. Truth is though in music we’re dealing with Art, sure there is pop music (commerce) and that world is dominated by electronics. I’m not bitter at all, I exist in a different world. Now maybe if BH and Lagg could accept they exist in a different world they would be far less bitter about it.

I for one will not go around bagging pop music saying ‘no one can play their bloody instruments’ which by the way is mostly true : )
You either have to play that game and be involved, or play your own game and forget the bitter tirades.

BH also says now it’s just a putting comp? But surely if Hogan in his day was hitting 16 green along with his competition, it would still come down to putting? Every stroke counts right?

I do see that older courses are the ones that suffer, new courses are designed for the new game, old ones are sacrificed to an extent.

RTL calls a hybrid a cheat stick, yet still uses the new drivers, it’s all relative.

I myself Love using mainly irons now, I just get more satisfaction hitting a blade than some GI mass thing, but if I was doing it for money I’d move on.

Took me 5 minutes to scroll past Mrs Hughes…talk about batting above your average.

There's many a slip 'tween a cup and a lip.

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Think Brad deserves some good luck in the marriage department after what he went through

It’s all a case of “closing the gate after the horse has bolted”

This SHOULD of been dealt with 20 years ago when the metal wood age began, but wasn’t and probably never will. So live with it i say.

Those who say Hybrids are cheat sticks, come on seriously!! Maybe you should go back to your mashies and balata balls to please your egos. Is Y.E Yang a cheat for hitting that amazing shot with a hybrid on the 18th in the 2009 PGA championship?

There’s no problem with slow change, it’s the explosive change has just left courses defenseless in it’s wake. Some beauties just aren’t played anymore, others lose their character by being lengthened and then only struggle financially to maintain the extra 20-30 acres and end up closing.

What’s the point if everyone’s hitting it 30-50 yards longer? It’s like allowing some new tyre with twice the grip on racing cars. Everyone’s knocking 20 seconds off their best times, past records are obliterated and the world’s great tracks are obsolete—just drive flat-out through the esses. But everyone’s still finishing in the same order.

But it’s worse in golf because the balance of the game changes. You see the winner of some PGA event’s stats, 12 under, 50% of fairways hit, he’s -16 on the par 5s, +1 on the par 4’s and +3 on the par 3’s. Something’s just not right there.

I believe Brad used persimmon woods at Coolum, would be interested if anyone could confirm that.

Have any of you naysayers felt the weight of a persimmon, or heard the “click” noise they make ? I would not attempt to put into words the noise some of the titanium monstrositys make.
Anyway must go, horse needs feeding.

I never heard John McEnroe or other tennis players complain about racquets going from wood to graphite etc. They adapted.

But they never made the court smaller or the net higher.

I played a few weeks ago with a good mate who uses persimmon. Had another mate there, a longish hitter, tad more than me. I hit a good drive with my big TM driver, then he used the persimmon 1W and it was next to my ball. He would add 10mts with the new club. The ball probably has more to do with it?

There has always been long hitters, do these clubs really make that much difference for the long guys? Or they they just level out the playing field? Though not everyone using them can drive 300 anyhow. Norman was hitting all the par 5’s in 2 in the early days with his persimmon.

I’m no naysayer by the way, love the sound and feel of persimmon, love the look too actually.

Tennis is a good example of the tech changing the way players hit the ball. Top spin, and back court ralleying ala Raffa, Jokovic, etc. Fed just used his natural talent to slice them up, but with age he can’t anymore. Connors, Bjorn, McEnroe, all hit the ball hard, just with more variety of play-serve volley, hang back and wait for the opportunity to move into the net.
Tennis I think did change the ball, reduced the compression to make it bounce less?

Should the USPGA alter the rules for the ball? Should Pro V’s bee banned? That is up to them. I believe there will always be over paid sportsmen lamenting times past, and venting just an honest opinon on their beloved game. Have HCP’s come down? Don’t know why this is valid.

Players of different era’s will play a different style of game, it is the nature of sport, and golf is a sport. Tech will change the way players hit the ball, but interestingly, putting is still key. Yes broomsticks don’t look good, but this is where the sport is won or lost-on the dance floor-that has not changed.

If you read the latter pages of Hughes’ site you will get a better understanding for why the equipment is detrimental to the golf swing also not just how the game and great courses have been forgotten.
It’s not really coming across as a bitter whinging rant, it is more of a one thing leads to another process about the golf swing and equipment being related. Too many people believe they can just go buy new equipment to improve when in fact the real heart of the problem with their game (talking amateur players mainly here) is the equipment to begin with in many regards. His Don Bradman comparison near the end of the final page is spot on the mark but everyone is brainwashed into thinking just because something is new it is actually better. Golf IMO is not just about 300 meter drives which is what club companies all want us to believe and what they really try to cater for. You shouldn’t be trying to mask your bad shots you should be striving for better solid controlled strikes. His thoughts all sound very logical to me.

It reads like a well intentioned whinge to me.

Basically I agree with the general premise of the rant and I believe that BH, Lag et al have the best interests of the game in their hearts. Unfortunately however the horse has bolted so for me it just comes across as a fruitless whinge.

I agree with you Stink that Greg Norman hit lots of Par 5s in two in his day. The thing is, he was one of the few. Now every man and his dog does it.

My take on it is that Norman was the world number 1 for so long because he drove the ball and struck his irons better than most of his competitors, and he was a good enough putter to capitilise.

That isn’t true of the recent No1 golfers, it really is more down to putting now.

Enjoyed his web site….finally somebody who I can relate to about the golf swing and equipment. My grandmother was a Hughes, I wonder if there is a link.

Have any of you taken the time and effort to read pages 5-8 of Hughes site. There are some interesting thoughts there re swing, swing plan extra.

Some of the stuff is typical stirring by the man but throughout the whole site there are some very interesting thoughts

Have any of you taken the time and effort to read pages 5-8 of Hughes site. There are some interesting thoughts there re swing, swing plan extra.

Some of the stuff is typical stirring by the man but throughout the whole site there are some very interesting thoughts

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Peg has Bear_Vision

I only read the first few paragraphs. yawnnnnnn…...

The funny thing is that all the people who used to wake up in the middle of the night with erections to get up and read Lag’s thread and the Showme thread here on iseek are the ones now who dismiss it all. Those two threads alone are the most wealth of information on this entire forum by about 100 miles. I have read through them and all the other stuff on here is pretty lame compared to those.Looks like admin locked their threads and sent people back to golf oblivion by hiding them way back in the archives

I think the Lets Talk lag Golf Machine and the Showmethamoney thread are buried about 50 pages in now right there between the very informative “How high should I tee the ball” and “Will my hat backwards help me see the ball better”
Don’t miss the fantastic info to help your game on those beauties also HaHa

I just read with interest Mr Hughes’ view on the world of golf technology and golf course design.

It smacks to me of a reformed smoker …..... he was quite happy to chase the latest and greatest when we was out there, but now that he’s been superceded, he’s turned all bitter and twisted.

Interesting to note too how he quotes the greats, Nicklaus, Trevino, Player and Watson’s views to add weight to his own particular barrow he’s pushing.

While some of the greats might know of Mrs Hughes (Is she the Pippa Middleton of golf?) ....... I doubt that they could pick Mr Hughes out of a line-up.

Perhaps history will consign him alongside that other bitter and twisted guy Peter Thomson ….... but minus all those British Open successes of course.

without knowing that about the lie angles, my clubs a 2* flat and swing weight is D0.
Im in the process of altering my hybrids, as they feel way too light.

Firstly I miss “Shome” round here, to be able to ask a question of a player of his calibre was fantastic, as is being able to do the same with RTL. Sure beats having another discussion about how far a series of choppers can hit a 7 iron.

To the points he is making on his site, can anyone disagree?

I would like to see the winding back some of the “innovations” the equipment companies (and their overly cosy relationship with the USGA and PGA Tour) have introduced over the years. Firstly for the pros (as with the grooves) and then amateurs.

Rather than coming off as bitter it is more a plea for the game he loves, perhaps he and Lag have become a little evangelical but that hardly negates the points they are making.

I don’t get how stating facts is bitter and twisted…

http://www.leaderboard.com/...

GPJ
I believe you are looking at everything with the wrong perception. What Hughes talks about the likes of Watson,Player, Nicklaus have talked about for years.He is using them for an example of the ignorance of the people that have been entrusted with making the rules relating to this wonderful game we all love.I don’t think he really cares he has been ‘super ceded’ as you suggest. I think you will find circumstance and life happenings are more related to Hughes’ stepping back from the game far more than ability.He is stating the very obvious about what technology and the golf courses have done to affect the game he loves and has made his life. It is far more passion than whining as you suggest.
You only have to backtrack and read his old responses on this site to see his intensity and love for the game and his willingness to project the correct knowledge to golfers of any variety and standard such as he did for those on iseek for so many months for the masses to read and consider and use for improvement. I myself would much rather listen and learn from someone who has at least been there and done it. I would listen to Shane Warne tell me how to spin bowl more so than I would listen to John Smith who took 2 for 24 at Echuca one weekend in a one day match against Rich River. All that being true I would certainly turn a blind ear to golf instruction or thoughts from people who haven’t experienced golf at the highest level and who have not been through the changes golf has undertaken over the past 25 years to be able to determine the differences and share them. I have seen and heard enough BS about the swing and clubs and such on TV and in golf magazines and on golf internet forums to last me a lifetime yet when someone stands up and says the truth based on his belief from living and playing through it all he gets cried foul at and labeled a whinger.
The only reason I ever joined this site in the first place was because I read his Showme thread and Lag’s thread. Their knowledge and desire to wade through the crap that gets pushed on golfers and deliver some sort of truth got me inspired about the game again after not playing for many years Most of the other stuff here is rather petty discussion when compared

Yeah the changing lofts is a weird one, but that is just a number, it’s different to the big clubs. A 20* club, whether it’s called a 2i or a 3i is hard to hit if it’s a blade, it’s not so much the lofts as the make up, ie hybrid or new fangled driver, or even those serious GI irons.

I still see validity in many of the points he makes about true ball striking and the bang and gouge or whatever it’s called. But it’s hard not to sound bitter and twisted when making the point.

If I go out without my driver, and a bag full of blades and then say to someone who beats me with Hybrids and GI irons with a Big Boy titanium beast that they didn’t really win, it was the clubs, I’ll sound bitter and twisted.

We have HC’s so we play against ourselves, we can use whatever we like and the HC adjusts for us, problem is in the pro world you play for money, they use what they can and that’s it.

The horse has bolted and that’s just it. BH and Lag should just make their own torneys with the old gear (well as old as they see fit) and just get on with their lives and have fun playing golf.

Tell me Lag doesn’t sound somewhat bitter here

stinkler
I am not sure you understand it. Hughes never says you have to play the older equipment. he clearly states you will learn more about your swing and fine tuning it and keeping it at a better standard by practicing with the old equipment set up in the correct manner. He realizes the horse has bolted because the equipment has been allowed to run free far too much and he himself would not be able to use the old equipment in tournaments and keep up. See the Don Bradman message on his site. The Don used a stump or a stick to make practice harder to get his eye and his feel in and then when he used the real bat the game became much easier. Too many people think things can be given to them on a platter. You earn your way. the equipment may make you feel good for a few weeks but as he says it isn’t designed to allow continual improvement. It’s quick fix equipment designed around length and making mishits acceptable. So people blame their clubs and not their swing most of the time when their game goes sour again in a matter of weeks and go spend $500 on another club in the search. Make your practice harder so the game becomes easier when it really matters

GN, fair enough, I do agree with all of that. I decided to change to blades (basically, 63’s) for that exact reason. I want to know that if I make a good shot it’s me, I also want to be punished for a crap one, I want to learn.

I also leave the driver out, not only because it can cost me shots when wayward, but I’d rather hit more irons off the tee and then longer irons into the green. That feels like golf to me.

Like I said he makes heaps of good points and I see the effect that he talks about in the fact that average HC’s are still up there. People want quick fixes and that’s not good, they wont do the hard work.

Maybe I’ll read it more carefully trying to be more impartial about the whinge factor.

The horse has bolted and that's just it. BH and Lag should just make their own torneys with the old gear (well as old as they see fit) and just get on with their lives and have fun playing golf.

They do make their own torneys, they do get on with their lives and they do have fun playing golf. In fact it sounds like they enjoy golf a tonne more now that they’ve removed commercialism from the equation.

And the horse hasn’t bolted at all. We’ll never see persimmon come back in, but a ball roll back is not out of this world (trial tournaments have already been played with reduced distance balls), nor are tighter driver restrictions. It’s just an extremely hard thing to specify when you’ve got many factors involved, not the least of which being the manufacturers’ attorneys on standby.

Lag and BH are just another two voices amongst many, including (but defintely not limited to) Nicklaus, Norman, Watson, Shackleford, Huggan and a tonne of respected architects.

Having read the initial link I was of a particular view. Then I read some of the posts and got a tad confused. Soooo, I have now read the link 3 times and have decided for myself that Sir Hughes makes some very valid points when read in the context I now believe he has meant them. In saying that, GN has expressed some of those thoughts quite well also.

I do not feel that Brad is saying that advancements in golf have been all bad, just that they are so frequent and do they really have a purpose other than making the manufacturers a shit load of money each time and giving us new toys that we believe we simply must have or our game will go to shit.

In many ways I agree it has made golfers less adept at the game and if you read all number of threads on here, it is the shaft that makes the difference, not the 460cc bulk at the end of it. I think we are all probably guilty of buying clubs that are marketed at being the only way to assist us in supposedly making better scores, rather than improving what has been wrong with our game. I know I have..

With the amount of golf that I play (not much at all these days) I suppose I am not one that can really make a valid statement on what is and what is not good for the game. Some 30 yrs ago, I was playing off 12 with Persimmon woods and blades. I hope to be able to do that again in the future, but I believe a lot of it will be due to finding some of the old technique that I had and not just all technology.

Persimmon was running out, around the world, couldn`t have kept up with demand, Think they made a big mistake taking out the skill for a better player, not many guys could drive it a long way with small heads..Have seen a group of young trainee pros trying to hit persimmons, no chance with 3 wood off the deck.There was a young Korean guy who could get the wooden 3 off the grass, he had a very upright swing, like 1980`s players had.The other guys were amazed we played with them, after hitting them.Were Mizuno persimmons, and a Cleveland persimmon Driver.

Took me 5 minutes to scroll past Mrs Hughes…talk about batting above your average.

There's many a slip 'tween a cup and a lip.

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

haha love your work, my thoughts exactly

Persimmon was running out, around the world, couldn`t have kept up with demand, Think they made a big mistake taking out the skill for a better player, not many guys could drive it a long way with small heads..Have seen a group of young trainee pros trying to hit persimmons, no chance with 3 wood off the deck.There was a young Korean guy who could get the wooden 3 off the grass, he had a very upright swing, like 1980`s players had.The other guys were amazed we played with them, after hitting them.Were Mizuno persimmons, and a Cleveland persimmon Driver.

Qld, six in a row origin.

In Ben Hogan’s autobiography, Dodson makes mention of Hogan’s driver. quote
“His persimmon-headed driver was 45 inches long with the stiffest custom flex available, its face turned slightly open at address, its oversized cord grips cranked slightly counterclockwise to promote the delayed release he favoured.”
He goes on to say that the present owner of one of Hogan’s drivers takes great pleasure in allowing PGA tour players an opportunity to try and hook the ball with it. None had been able to at the time the book was published (2004).

They will need the new equipment playing the US Open this year!
7500yard par 71.

Only a 523yard par 4 finishing hole!

That would be yards surly, still that’s 470 mtrs, a decent strike or 2 needed.

I read through Brads site again, top to tail. I still get a bit bipolar views. He makes many good points and obviously can really strike a ball. Had a great life in golf and certainly knows his stuff.

I think he talks like there is no great ball strikers on tour today, apart from some older guys. Guys like Ogilvy, Donald Westwood etc all have pretty bloody good iron games don’t they?

Anyhow, lots of good info and interesting reading. I’d be interested to actually read some of his instructional material too, the site is more full of him promoting his teaching without any insight into the actual basics of what it is he teaches. Sure he has loads of swing comparisons there, but I would be keen to see a video or book.

Thats certainly long for hacks like us. For many of the pro’s I am not sure it is that long relative to what we have to play.

That is 6858m long. My home track is just over 6000m. So roughly an extra 15% in length give or take. These guys hit it at least 1 club and many more like 2 or 3 clubs longer than me.

Its the rough and speed of greens on top that really hurt with these types of course.

i wonder if brad knows that there are people out here in the real world who don’t have 40 hours a week to practise with blades

some people can only get out once a week for 9 holes and having some game improvement irons helps them get back to the clubhouse with a degree of sanity and dignity left

never ceases to amaze me how many sets of old blades i see at garage sales and the like that look like they’ve never been used. without a bit of forgiveness, the once a week golfers would quit, as thousands have over the years, being that it’s simply “too hard”

remember “enjoyment” should be a major part of golf, not everyone has ambitions of ever being anything more than a social golfer so every little bit helps

one of the reasons all this “helpful” stuff came in was to encourage more people to play the game, pro’s may be another story, but they are outnumbered a million to one by social hacks

i wonder if brad knows that there are people out here in the real world who don't have 40 hours a week to practise with blades

some people can only get out once a week for 9 holes and having some game improvement irons helps them get back to the clubhouse with a degree of sanity and dignity left

never ceases to amaze me how many sets of old blades i see at garage sales and the like that look like they've never been used. without a bit of forgiveness, the once a week golfers would quit, as thousands have over the years, being that it's simply “too hard”

remember “enjoyment” should be a major part of golf, not everyone has ambitions of ever being anything more than a social golfer so every little bit helps

one of the reasons all this “helpful” stuff came in was to encourage more people to play the game, pro's may be another story, but they are outnumbered a million to one by social hacks

very wise words..

Ingy, you make a very good point indeed. Whilst it doesn’t negate the truths in some of BH’s rave, it does go a long way to pointing out that the game is just fun for some, simply a way to spend time with some mates and get away from lifes other shit.

Why not make it easier for them to enjoy? Makes sense. That’s why I think that their (as in BH and Lag) intensity of “must be done this way” falls over. It makes sense for someone as obsessed as me to consider, but not many very casual golfers.

Many will not even touch a stick between games, so the idea of practice with blades is just ridiculous to them.

I must say though for the serious obsessed golfer he makes a lot of sense. Would still like to know what his ‘teaching principles’ are and what sort of drills he uses to build a swing.

I like Brad but why blame technology for your own failures, sorry it’s how I see it, his game went sad for a while so what balme technology, well the others seem to have made adjustments to it.
I play persimmon in my day to be honest you also hit more fairways with them becuase the ball doesn’t go as far, so you do hit more faiways. But with modern gear you need to be more accurate with your driver to hit faiways, alot of holes you have to play irons more often so it balances out either way.
The old gear or new gear I still hit 14 greens in regulation quite regularly.
Golf has been and will always boil down to putting and short game. You can’t putt you can’t shoot lower scores regular to win on tour these days.
I applaued modern gear it gives the average bear the ability to enjoy the game more, it’s tough enought without making life harder using blades.
I like Brad and Lag although this is my point of view, if they are such great ball strikers why can’t they mix it with the best and Number 1 and 2 out there. They can’t putt for starters, they aren’t finishing it off. I don’t care if you hit 18 greens if you still don’t hole putts you won’t go low. The difference today is players are smarter they know it’s a putting game, so they focus on short game and putting.
Today;s players are more athletic and stronger they work out and extremley fit is another reason they bomb it further, also they have 3D technology to train their engine to produce more power as well.
Tiger Woods said it himself, that he is getting to the point where the young boys are in another league to him because them being fitter, stronger etc.

All good points Zen. I was just reading Lags site and your posts there, they don’t seem to like listening to you though : ) Their loss.

I saw that start up a while back. Perception and Reality have more fights over the P word than the R word.

I love old clubs. Modern clubs make life easier for all. Most cannot play withe old clubs which mean they are not great tools to have fun with for most.

Everyone is entitled to their point of view I guess.

I only read it briefly and he noted that the new equipment takes a lot of the art out of golf and the craft of ball striking and shaping is gone.

A lot of things are gone from days gone by…. its called progress.

And well sorry Mr Hughes get with the times and move on or find another sport….

To quote Darryl Kerrigan:

“Jousting Sticks, what’s he want for’em?”

Yep Mr Hughes, Jousting is your calling my friend, giddy up!!!

Everyone is entitled to their point of view I guess.

I only read it briefly and he noted that the new equipment takes a lot of the art out of golf and the craft of ball striking and shaping is gone.

A lot of things are gone from days gone by…. its called progress.

And well sorry Mr Hughes get with the times and move on or find another sport….

To quote Darryl Kerrigan:

“Jousting Sticks, what’s he want for’em?”

Yep Mr Hughes, Jousting is your calling my friend, giddy up!!!

So letting kids use calculators in classrooms instead of their brains – makes them smarter?
Do cars that park themselves make you a better driver?
Music bands that have 4 singers and none of them can play a note on an instrument- Good?
The whole world is lazy. Everyone e-mails or texts instead of making calls because it’s the easy way out.
Noone knows directions how to get anywhere they just follow an image of their car moving across a navigation screen
If golf was such fun and enjoyment and it all doesn’t matter as many suggest and Hughes’ thoughts are called BS then why does everyone come to this site or take lessons in a quest to improve? Not all technology is beneficial it is just a lazy I want it now attitude and thinking along with much of the way society rolls

The difference today is players are smarter they know it's a putting game, so they focus on short game and putting.

I wonder how they learnt that. They must have been real dumb back in those days of Einstein, Curie, Bohr,...

I decided today to go out to my local course with 14 sticks I found lying around. I carefully selected sticks with different lofts. Anyway, it was a long round but I felt good about ‘keeping it real’ like back in the 1700’s. I turned my nose up at all the other cheats on course using materials that NASA helped design. Anyway, I look forward to my h’cap blowing out a bit but I will definitely be able to sleep soundly in my ‘smug’ bed.

i wonder if brad knows that there are people out here in the real world who don't have 40 hours a week to practise with blades

some people can only get out once a week for 9 holes and having some game improvement irons helps them get back to the clubhouse with a degree of sanity and dignity left

never ceases to amaze me how many sets of old blades i see at garage sales and the like that look like they've never been used. without a bit of forgiveness, the once a week golfers would quit, as thousands have over the years, being that it's simply “too hard”

remember “enjoyment” should be a major part of golf, not everyone has ambitions of ever being anything more than a social golfer so every little bit helps

one of the reasons all this “helpful” stuff came in was to encourage more people to play the game, pro's may be another story, but they are outnumbered a million to one by social hacks

very wise words..

Nike VR tour 9.5deg drvr S flex voodoo
Cobra Baffler TWS 2, 3h Aldila NVS Stiff (or 3w sub)
Titleist AP2 4-pw DG S300
Adams PVD 52,56,60*
Odyssey WHXG#9
B330S/Vision X3w

All good points but again irrelevant. He is saying that despite the equipment improvements the average punter is not improving.

No problem about enjoyment, that is what we are all there for. If you never learn correctly, you are never going to get far, and then do you quit?

The Pros are rendering classic courses redundant with the technology.

I decided today to go out to my local course with 14 sticks I found lying around. I carefully selected sticks with different lofts. Anyway, it was a long round but I felt good about ‘keeping it real' like back in the 1700's. I turned my nose up at all the other cheats on course using materials that NASA helped design. Anyway, I look forward to my h'cap blowing out a bit but I will definitely be able to sleep soundly in my ‘smug' bed.

Something about you rankles with me.

I realise you are trying to be “amusing”, I am not there.

you are rankling me…..come to bed now, I want to take a stick to you:)

seriously who gives a fuck. It is nice to read differing opinions but ultimately who cares. I can’t believe that golf is still played outdoors with varying tee times. How fair is that? Some players get an advantage of less wind than others. That’s for you Malven :) :)

Firstly I miss “Shome” round here, to be able to ask a question of a player of his calibre was fantastic, as is being able to do the same with RTL. Sure beats having another discussion about how far a series of choppers can hit a 7 iron.

To the points he is making on his site, can anyone disagree?

I would like to see the winding back some of the “innovations” the equipment companies (and their overly cosy relationship with the USGA and PGA Tour) have introduced over the years. Firstly for the pros (as with the grooves) and then amateurs.

Rather than coming off as bitter it is more a plea for the game he loves, perhaps he and Lag have become a little evangelical but that hardly negates the points they are making.

“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who haven't got it.” George Bernard Shaw

I agree with you Mal…. I remember when they introduced grips to the clubs and then they decided we could wear gloves as well. These “innovations” are against the spirit of the game.

The old “round and round we go” argument. I think the biggest problem the people who are against the latest improvements have is that they have artificially drawn a line on a continuum and said “This point is where change should have stopped”. But there is no fundamental logic to say persimmon was the right point, or that balata was the right point, or blades, or pitching wedges at 50 degrees.

At one point in time there was no such thing as a sand wedge. So if you want to get traditional leave that one at home. And of course there was no graphite – so change all your woods back to st …

Oh yeah, once upon a time the only metal was in the head, so go out and whittle some new shafts because innovation is the problem.

Of course, we could also complain about this foolish standardisation of courses at 18 holes. Used to be much more interesting in the old days when you could turn up to a course and have anything from 8 to 30.

But of course the ball is the real problem. So watch out chickens – time to bring back the feathery! Or whittle some wood again.

After all, why is it ok to use steel shafts but not rubber core balls? To use sand wedges but not 460cc drivers? Plenty of the members of this forum have decided to take the driver out of the bag because they can’t hit it consistently where they want. So it’s not as big an advantage as people think. Jack Nicklaus and Greg Norman regularly exceeded 300 yard drives.

And of course improvements in physical ability shouldn’t be ruled out. Human beings run faster now than ever before. Why isn’t it reasonable to think they can hit the ball further? And why not more of them, given the great increase in the technology available to teach! Holy Cow! Maybe more pros can consistently hit the ball further than 30 years ago because people have studied how to hit the ball further and have taught the pros how! Radical thought? Gary Player was considered a pioneer for physical fitness. Now everyone has access to good training facilities … and video analysis and monitors and fitting systems.

The only true negative that I can see is that some great courses don’t work very well as pro venues anymore. But otherwise, complaining that technology is improving is like complaining that about GPS for your car. For a start nobody makes you use it. But if efficiency is important then it is hard to beat.

Tigerpimp you sound like are 23 years old who holds an 18 handicap and assume they will let you write down 290 metre drive on your scorecard instead of a par 4

Ingy- one 9 holes or one practice session per week with blades (set up correctly) will be more beneficial and hold your game in better shape than going out and swinging a fly swatter around each and every day. Plus you can get a full set of old clubs to train your swing with on ebay for less than just ONE of today’s modern clubs.

Zen you summed it up perfectly that Hughes and Lag would still be great players if their putting was up to scratch. Does that mean you agree they are great ball strikers? If that is the case maybe they do know something and their thoughts may be worthwhile. I don’t really see them talking about putting, they are just offering ball striking logic to aid improvement. Hughes did win the masters with 24 under one year and won the TPC by 12 strokes another year- both with convential putting so he can/could putt. Like you say—If you can’t putt you can’t play PGA golf- so I think you missed the mark there.

Malvern gets it. if you make something easier and provide no feedback to your system then the odds are you will never know the difference between good and bad and have no margin for improvement.

Technology is great. Just like my washing machine that breaks down. Instead of putting a new fuse for $2.99 in it to make it work again I now have to buy an entire new front piece of electronic craftsmanship that costs me $300 and will more than likely break down again in another 6 months.
Even car repairs today- they just plug a cord in and the computer tells them what the problem may be. Not much taxing work involved there.

Hughes doesn’t play golf anymore. Not through lack of ability or failure to adjust to any of this ‘fandangled’ equipment. He stopped because of 20 years of travel wearing him out and wanting his own bed for once and because of problems far removed from the golf aspect of things that took away his desire to go and play anymore. Add the fact he almost had his eye taken out when he was 13 years old and has eyesight alignment problems that make objects seem much closer visually than they really are- which probably hurt his putting. Not to mention the disasters bestowed upon him in his personal life by people he trusted.

Hughes now teaches his beliefs based on his 25 years of travel and experience and exposure to all facets of the game and all the great players of the game. He isn’t guessing or telling anyone what they should or shouldn’t do. he makes his best suggestion based on all he has learned via his own game, tuition seen and received, , from playing with the greats of the game up close and discussing ideas with them and from equipment used and also how his own students react and improve to his beliefs. When you have one 35 year old student drop from a best score of 120 to a 75 in only 18 months how can you deny that the way he teaches people doesn’t work?

Oh by the way for all the idiots who love to hide behind their computer screens and make sharp off color remarks thinking they are smart or clever and have no real clue about how to physically handle a golf club and a golf ball and play golf….thanks to admin banning my original username because of ??? and not letting me post under my original SMTM name…....I am Bradley Hughes

I knew that would becoming soon… Hope your well Hugo

hahahahaha…good stuff…luv your work BH.

I am confused with iseek?

One minute you can’t say a bad word about Ewan Porter or Mike Claytons course designs and we all bow down to someone who says they are Steve Bowditch?

Next a guy with a wealth of knowledge and imput that i would much rather hear from like Brad Hughes aka ‘Showme’ is banned and we can tee off on people like Adam Scott and call him a faggot etc and everything is sweet on here.

Tigerpimp you sound like are 23 years old who holds an 18 handicap and assume they will let you write down 290 metre drive on your scorecard instead of a par 4

Ingy- one 9 holes or one practice session per week with blades (set up correctly) will be more beneficial and hold your game in better shape than going out and swinging a fly swatter around each and every day. Plus you can get a full set of old clubs to train your swing with on ebay for less than just ONE of today's modern clubs.

Zen you summed it up perfectly that Hughes and Lag would still be great players if their putting was up to scratch. Does that mean you agree they are great ball strikers? If that is the case maybe they do know something and their thoughts may be worthwhile. I don't really see them talking about putting, they are just offering ball striking logic to aid improvement. Hughes did win the masters with 24 under one year and won the TPC by 12 strokes another year- both with convential putting so he can/could putt. Like you say’€”If you can't putt you can't play PGA golf- so I think you missed the mark there.

Malvern gets it. if you make something easier and provide no feedback to your system then the odds are you will never know the difference between good and bad and have no margin for improvement.

Technology is great. Just like my washing machine that breaks down. Instead of putting a new fuse for $2.99 in it to make it work again I now have to buy an entire new front piece of electronic craftsmanship that costs me $300 and will more than likely break down again in another 6 months.
Even car repairs today- they just plug a cord in and the computer tells them what the problem may be. Not much taxing work involved there.

Hughes doesn't play golf anymore. Not through lack of ability or failure to adjust to any of this ‘fandangled' equipment. He stopped because of 20 years of travel wearing him out and wanting his own bed for once and because of problems far removed from the golf aspect of things that took away his desire to go and play anymore. Add the fact he almost had his eye taken out when he was 13 years old and has eyesight alignment problems that make objects seem much closer visually than they really are- which probably hurt his putting. Not to mention the disasters bestowed upon him in his personal life by people he trusted.

Hughes now teaches his beliefs based on his 25 years of travel and experience and exposure to all facets of the game and all the great players of the game. He isn't guessing or telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do. he makes his best suggestion based on all he has learned via his own game, tuition seen and received, , from playing with the greats of the game up close and discussing ideas with them and from equipment used and also how his own students react and improve to his beliefs. When you have one 35 year old student drop from a best score of 120 to a 75 in only 18 months how can you deny that the way he teaches people doesn't work?

Oh by the way for all the idiots who love to hide behind their computer screens and make sharp off color remarks thinking they are smart or clever and have no real clue about how to physically handle a golf club and a golf ball and play golf….thanks to admin banning my original username because of ??? and not letting me post under my original SMTM name…….I am Bradley Hughes

Sitting reading the posts of GN1965 I thought to myself the language and the terms used indicated that there was more to this person than meets the eye and for once I was right and picked that the person was SMTM.

Nice to see ya still stirring the natives

His thoughts all sound very logical to me.

Love it Mr Hughes, love it :)

welcome back

Well it’s excellent that you are BH and I hope you stay around. Thought you knew a little about the subject!

It’s a very interesting subject indeed.

Can I ask a couple of questions, I’m into a lot of what you say.

Is it really fair to assume that going flat, as in lies, is a good thing? I understand the ‘blade’ argument over GI irons, but what is you have a very upright impact, like Norman? Wasn’t he plus 2?

I see your argument pertaining to the new drivers, big heads etc, and to GI irons. What’s your view on the ‘modern’ blade or players iron?

Surely the important thing to change in practice would be the ball too? Isn’t this what Norman said too, that with the new balls he had to use the new equipment?

Keen to hear your thoughts and hope you have the patients with us to stick around. I’ll just add I’m a beginner and may have said stuff that really is me trying to learn, that is why I’m here.

2 years ago I’d never have thought of changing from my GI shovels, now I’d never want to play them. So thoughts change.

I knew that would becoming soon… Hope your well Hugo

Bowdo

Any thoughts on pages 5-8 on Hugo’s site. Found a lot of the thoughts there quite interesting especially given what we are taught now???

Despite all the technology and the advances in both ball and club, the fact is handicaps have not changed much in the last thirty years.

I credit that more to the fact that …....... that big ball in the sky does not hang around any longer than it used to.

Like a lot of people, I have a life and tend to fit my golfing in when I can.

I’ll get out on the range perhaps once every two weeks, and hit a big bucket of balls and I’m done.

I’ll play in the local comp every Saturday, and occasionally have a Sunday hit with the beloved ….. and that’s about it.

I wouldn’t devote any more time to playing golf now, than I would have back as a teenager when I enjoyed having a hit, and my scoring is pretty much on a par with then.

Argueing over technology is spurious at best, if you’re not going to put in the hours it takes to truly become proficient at the game.

Take any learner pilot for example …....... Pick them up out of their small Cesna …........ and drop them straight into a space shuttle and tell them to fly it.

It’s stacked full of technology isn’t it, so it should be easier for them to control …......???

I don’t think you can compare the technology of an adjustable head/shaft to the technology of an space rocket, but other than that I think you are on the right direction in relation to time and handicaps.

But, if I understand GN1965 correctly, the handicaps may be comparable, but are we as good a golfers??

BnR …....... another issue is …........ Are golf courses that you’re joe average golfer, (not the pro’s) any longer and harder than they were 30 years ago.

A lot of courses around the place these days are fairly new …...... so one would presume that they have been designed with today’s lengths in mind.

That being the case …....... if those newer courses are in fact keeping up with the golf technology of today …....... then that would also explain why handicaps may not have moved much.

This thread is now up there with enjoyment of when Mike Clayton(Mac) was talking to some rude budding course design experts about his crap designs etc and they didn’t know it was him they were slagging off and he outed them!

Enjoy all your stuff GN1965 please stay around and keep it coming! This is exactly why I’m on this site!

You know I had another thought. Using gear that is harder or hardest to hit could possibly enhance your ball striking, but could also create bad habits or promote poor movement patterns due to the difficulty of getting desired results. Using this kind of gear to help your game by added feedback will only help if you can actually assess that feedback in an appropriate way.

Kind of like a warning sticker “use only under strict supervision”

I know it’s like that in my world of brass, the best gear (read equivalent of larger gear that requires excellent technique to control) wont help a student that hasn’t got proper guidance, and can destroy a player if misunderstood.

If people were generally better ball strikers through the use of this tougher gear then why isn’t the average HC much worse now? Maybe the HC thing is due to the accessibility of golf now to the GP. So many more casual golfers just having fun, not really concerned with getting to single figures? It’s probably irrelevant to the argument here anyhow?

Does RTL practice with persimmon and old blades 4* flat? I know he’s a great ball striker, did he learn on them? He doesn’t use them, and if he wants to compete of course he can’t.

An interesting subject anyhow.

I think weetbix has nailed it. great thought out repsonse. I know we should bow to your view GN because you can obviously play the game at a high level- but no one is right in this circular debate as it is obviously one person’s preference over another’s.

As far as I can tell, no one is forced to use the technology at your disposal. By all means keep enjoying the ‘classic’ courses with your balata.

Remember the three most feared things to us humans: Death, public speaking and CHANGE.

You know I had another thought. Using gear that is harder or hardest to hit could possibly enhance your ball striking, but could also create bad habits or promote poor movement patterns due to the difficulty of getting desired results. Using this kind of gear to help your game by added feedback will only help if you can actually assess that feedback in an appropriate way.

Kind of like a warning sticker “use only under strict supervision”

This is 1000% spot on.

The best point I have seen made on the subject.

Well done.

The golf shaft sits at an angle on the ground at address. The more upright the angle, the more the person swinging it will want to deliver that club down the line and increase that lie angle even more at impact by raising their hands and quitting their body and flipping the club over off path. That’s why that action encourages left, right, pull, pushes and maybe straight shots depending on how well you can time the slap of the clubface into impact.
If you have flatter clubs and deliver the club more around your body to impact it helps eliminate the disaster of a thrusting straightening right arm and engages the body to turn the club back into impact without stopping and using independent hand action.
It’s not that difficult to understand but the masses are taught an entirely different swing belief these days …..why?... because the teachers of today aren’t /weren’t decent successful golfers like your Tommy Armours, Jackie Burke’s and such over the years that passed on first hand knowledge. Todays guys have a camera and a computer and play a bit and get a golf degree online or in a classroom and don’t really know what to look for in a swing and have no or limited experience of what the real cause and affect and inner body sensations are.
They ‘PGA Gurus have success with one tour pro (who was good anyhow) and then everyone believes what they say, even though much of it is guesswork and misunderstanding…....
and of course the equipment design is partly/ largely/ hugely to blame.

Clubs started to be made more upright to help a hacker (mainly a slicer) hit the heel on the ground at impact and therefore close the face down a little thru the strike (without even really knowing it)...voila slice fixed. They think…Holy Shit…these clubs are awesome…they buy them and 4 weeks later their entire game is back to crap again.
Over time the swing deteriorates rapidly because the lighter club with the upright lie forces muscle memory to soften and the slight down the line move becomes even more of an across the line arm and hand slap and the body quits even more to make room for this slap to happen so instead of just having a slice to begin with, now they have a whole host of shot patterns that can creep in at any time…pulls, hooks, duffs
You get worse and worse and blame the clubs. So you go buy another $1000 set of 2,0 advanced perimeter tungsten lightweight graphite feathers and the fitters watch you hit some balls and plop you on a machine that is all about distance and they fit you and now they say you need 4 degrees upright clubs instead of the 2 degrees upright tin cans you just bought a few months earlier…..of course it is to counter balance that over the top down the line pull not to make you swing better…but to try band aid your ever crappier swing… so you get worse again in no time because now your swing is working even less functional because you are now trying to swing the club up and down like a pendulum instead of around and around in a semi circle arc
Obviously it is not all about equipment , you need to understand the correct sequence of events in the swing to allow face control and power simultaneously, but no-one is doing themselves any favours by having their clubs light and upright. I have a persimmon driver I practice with because it is heavy and it is flat..48 degree lie angle and it came built like that as standard back 50 years ago. Today’s drivers are what lie angle?.....60? It keeps my swing in tune because if I don’t swing it correctly mishits are multiplied. Luckily for me I understand how to solve the problem with my next shot, but if I can’t feel the mishit and the clubs are designed to keep the ball straighter and still somehow similar distance wise even with crap off center strikes—how do I really know?...all shots feel decent. I get complacent and my swing turns to crap in no time at all.
So even if you have a good idea how to swing the club you won’t do as well because the clubs are designed to fix crap swings not enhance good ones….and they don’t provide mishit feedback
If you have heavier flatter clubs to practice with your chances of retaining a better circular rotating motion that delivers the hands reasonably close to the impact position similar as they were at address and you are also able to feel off centre shots allows the brain a chance of distinguishing what is going on and you stand some chance
....anyone understand it now?

Yes, I grasp the concept. I still maintain it needs to be under supervision, as you seem to say too. Using this gear wont automatically improve your swing.

Can I ask how do you explain Norman using 2* upright and being one of the best ball strikers?

Also, do you have a module system like Lag? Or what do you base your teaching on as far as movement patterns to utilise or enhance this flatter swing.

What swing weight for irons do you think is a good place to start?

Cheers,

Norman used slightly upright (remember his old 2 up lies would be entirely different and much flatter than what TM or Titleist will say 2 up is today, because of companies changing their specs and lofts) had some of the greatest ground pressures going on in his swing ever so he was able to keep the club under control because of that and his fight against the centrifugal forces of the downswing and thruswing…so he could do it….you will remember however he wasn;’t that great wedge player/chipper until later in his career…just like Nicklaus…poor to average wedge player and chipper because of the lie angles…upright are designed to make a hacker hit the ball straight instead of right….a good golfer will normally hit an upright club left and on most courses long and left are the absolute worst place to be because the green slopes away
but both Shark & Bear it it so good they could neglect that part a little although they could have been even better? if they altered that who knows…a good player can make anything happen most of the time even with a stick and a tin can until the pressure is on and body tingles alter the feel.
Why do you think Trevino would always beat Nicklaus in playoffs etc… flat shallow entry with his entire game. he kept his ball in play and would hit first into every green and then he outwedged Nicklaus to death in those events because of this shallower path in and thru and came out the victor…

I teach very much the same as Lag as it is magic that works and gets results….I share my thoughts on his website and help with the students there as well as doing my own stuff

I have my long irons D3.. mid irons D5…short irons D8…wedges E0

progressive weighting because when the shaft gets shorter you need to be able to still get some weight in there to feel it and especially with the shorter shots you need to feel weight for touch and not swing a feather for touch shots or greenside roughs or bunkers.. you can utilize the weight to your advantage

Why they make an entire set all the way thru at D1 from 3 iron to Sand Iron..I will never know..again it isn’t what used to be done and isn’t based on the art of playing good golf…just production ease and scientific negligence because they are designed by average ability golfers.

One of the other real problems is the club reps can BS real well…”Well this is our latest macro gigan mega turnsta material that allows blah,blah,blah”..... Problem is you only have to watch EVERY golf commercial or golf advert in a magazine…..all they ever say is
“LONGEST”...”12 YARDS FARTHER”...”AERODYNAMIC”... “LIGHTER MEANS LONGER”....they appeal to the ignorance of the golfer who wants to drag is nuts along the ground and say how long he is…”Hey Jim, I hit one 315 today on number 12”...”That’s great, what did you hit in?”....”Oh I couldn’t go at the green I was in a tree two fairways over, but the f%$C&er went 315 so I was stoked”...

none of the designers realize that mass is very important to a club ….the more mass the more control. The more mass the more body action to help move the club…the more mass hitting the ball squarely the more distance you can actually impart on the ball….when the clubs too light you get slap happy and you better bring a dozen balls

Thanks for answering mate, appreciate it.

This is very similar to what was happening in surfboard design technology about 10 years ago. Everyone was riding skinny, thin high performance boards because Kelly Slater and AI was riding them. Then, slowly, surfers (including KS and AI) started to rediscover older designs and began playing with them and having fun from the response they got from using the diferent equipment.

Nowdays you see guys having a ball on a whole range of boards, and they are discovering what’s right for them and the standard of surfing from the average Joe is improving noticeably.

I suppose the difference with Golf is that alot of us only play in comps and the short-term goal of shooting the lowest score possible takes priority.

ps. welcome back showme I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

Thanks for the insight GN. Ben Hogan’s forged irons (according to his autobiography) were believed to be the heaviest ever used in competition, bent anywhere from 3 to 6 degrees flat depending on the club. They were scarred beyond belief from constant use, lead taped and guaranteed never to hook.

Brad,
I disagree with you about club fitting, I have seen flat swings with upright lie angles and their lie has changes in years either. SWING PLANE has no effect on where the club lie angle is dynamically at impact. This is proven by physics and measure data as well.
Also the heavier the club the more it adds an external force to the system, This effects your arms speed and club release, I have measured data to prove this. Also basic physicals proves this as well.
Why have the same swing weight simple, to generate the same swing pattern every time. If you have different swing weight then it effects your dynamics and different externals forces to your swing patterns, this causes biomechanical and mechanical breakdowns.

Now if you have a good kinetic link like Greg Norman, the lighter the better the less external force or weight applied to the system and doesn’t effect his movement patterns.

Brad join the circle of life everyone has had their ups and downs in life, that’s life. I had an accident and ended my playing career, who cares no one, but I don’t lay around saying poor little me either, I got up off the ground dusted my hat off and go on with it. Didn’t blame anyone for it. I dug down deep and search for answers and found them, I got my game back as well and shot 2 under and 4 under recently.
What I disagree with is you bagging coaches and equipment then brain washing other people, it old gear and your swing ideas work for you great but doesn’t mean modern technology for clubs or today’s teaching doesn’t benefit others, that’s not fair to the consumer either. I have seen guys do lags modules and stuff them up like styles, he went on another path and is going great guns. There are a few other guys as well, do we bag lag no, his teach methods just didn’t work for them.
I don’t really give a dam to be honest, what ever works and gets results so be it.
But you and lag need to realise you don’t have all the answers like you believe you do.

Zen,
You are entirely entitled to your opinion. You obviously have your product to sell and believe it helps. I have stated many times in other threads etc that the pga players you always state that had improved their kinetic numbers don’t improve their ball striking and I have shown you stats to back that up based on their ball striking .
All the great functional golf swings who had consistent ball striking with not only power but control were built around heavier flatter equipment than what we see today. There is absolutely no denying that and that’s why we don’t see outstanding statistics from pga players and why the amateur golfer ditches his clubs every few months in the search for a new miracle club that can cover up his flaws.
I don’t remember bagging any coaches by name. Up above you’ve just bagged my thoughts. You’ve bagged Lag’s thoughts and in the golfguru thread you’ve stated a guy by the name of Martin Ayers as not knowing what he is talking about. Just as you say your data is king but no-one else can read it or understand it.. I say my beliefs are king because of my experiences of going through the spectrum of equipment changes, playing with great, good, average and bad players and seeing what happens. It honestly works that way. The more experience someone has in a field the more desirable they will be as a choice for you to select and use to assist you with a problem. I was a golfer that’s my field since I was 10 years old.
Styles—he did module 1 of our program….and that was it. Stopped right there…There is much more to the swing than that one area that he worked on ,so saying he was off the map by doing our training is way off the mark… and now he is cured by doing PST training?. I read his thread and whilst his numbers are good on a machine as you say..is it reflecting on course? No offense Styles….but you were brought up here in the discussion. I see no handicap alteration and no score improvement. I read his thread with interest because I like Styles and want to see him reach his goal and I am convinced if he had of stuck with our program and been well down the course now he would have reached his goal of getting to scratch.
Zen just called the kettle black by bagging me saying I am full of sh%t and don’t know what I am talking about.
I think the companies are the ones brain washing the players not me Scott. They design drivers with heads so large and sweetspots so high up on the face they tell you to hit up on the ball and change your swing entirely. Then they have them upright in lie angle and light in weight which makes people swing steeper down into the ball with hands and arms mainly…yet now they want you to hit up on the ball… how do you swing down sharply because of the design and then hit up steeply to utilize the clubs sweetspot? ...nigh impossible….
Talking about your other points…
Clubhead speed is only one factor. I can swing as hard as I want with my hands and arms to get speed but I won’t get the club onto the ball to be able to control it. I need to swing the club with my body and bring the club along with my hands and arms all working together. If I do this and have more mass behind the ball (heavier club) when I strike the ball it will still go just as far…that’s the physics Zen….F=M x A force = mass x acceleration… whilst you may not swing them quite as quickly as you suggest you will have more mass behind the strike and the weight of the club will allow you to keep it on a truer path for better striking. If I stand there with my feet apart and balanced and someone weighing 100 pounds runs into me at 25mph I may fall down slightly. If someone weighing 200 pounds runs into me at 20 mph I will more than certainly be knocked over hard. Mass wins over speed. Same as the golf ball. A heavier club even with slightly less speed will propel the ball farther…and the extra weight will allow me to swing the club more around me for the correct body sequencing to take place. Very very simple.
The lighter clubs cause even worse mechanical breakdowns.
Swing plane only counts in a certain area of the swing. If you don’t understand it and don’t know how it really works then you’ll never get it….obviously the case
Computers, monitors, facts and figures don’t make you hit the ball properly. You are a very combative person each and every time someone says something that you don’t believe in . You believe in your cube and science. I believe in swinging the club based on the truly great ball strikers. I am not interested in numbers only results. Been there done it and it doesn’t work.
When a student drops his personal best from 120 down to 75 in 18 months am I wrong?... because I’ll guarantee he’d be floundering back around the 90-100 mark by sticking to the regular one plane beliefs and lighter upright equipment.
Seems every time I surface on a forum you want to start a fight. Don’t bad mouth my thoughts when they are proven in real life circumstances.
Not going to go round and round with this…..like you always seem to want to do on every forum. You don’t get it because you don’t want to get it. ... that’s the way of life but don’t go saying I don’t know what I am talking about. Golf is an art not just a science as so many want to believe.

Game, Set, Match

Then they have them upright in lie angle and light in weight which makes people swing steeper down into the ball with hands and arms mainly…yet now they want you to hit up on the ball… how do you swing down sharply because of the design and then hit up steeply to utilize the clubs sweetspot? ...nigh impossible….

I probably misquoted myself a little there by not finishing the end of that remark….so to clarify…...to hit down steep and then up steep is very possible…in fact it it very easy.. but the only way to do it is by stopping your body and quitting your shoulder rotation which brings about steep/vertical shoulders at impact and then the hands flip the club upwards to try hit the ball. Exactly what I show on my website pics. It is not co-incidence. It is club design that makes this more or less have to happen for the majority of players if they try get the numbers on screen that these crazed club fitters and people are trying to tell them to aim for and some large misinformation about the true swing plane and where it really means something that all contribute to people swinging too up down and stalling and slapping.
Wanted to clarify that as it is certainly not nigh impossible but certainly not desirable….when we are considering the consistency of the strike and clubface alignment at impact to control your ball with any significance.
All launch monitors, and such are basically based on one premise …distance. I know myself that when I would play 18 holes of golf I may only go flat out on possibly 2 of 14 drives I would hit… the rest are a collection of placement and shaping for position to approach from. So to base a club fitting just on launch angle, distance, spin rate etc is bogus because it is only telling me (for e.g) what I may want to do for 2 of my 14 drives all just to achieve optimal distance. It forgets the playing of the game of golf factor…which is more like a game of chess where I am positioning my ball to eliminate mistakes and give myself the best option for my next shot.
So if I get a driver that only really takes care of 14% of my drives what do I do about the other 86% of them? People have been gob smacked into believing distance is everything when in fact distance CONTROL is everything. It’s no good hitting my 7 iron 165 yards one time or 180 yards or 110 yards the next time… I want to be able to hit it 165 yards each and every time with solid contact and control… which is much harder to do with improper equipment setup based on all the reasoning I have put forward.

Just for fun…Zen said people swing flat but the upright lie angle makes no difference
Lets look at Matt Kuchar because he has really flattened his swing out the past few years and has played exceedingly well…. but has he actually flattened his swing plane?
Sure his backswing is flat- but then he has to pull the club back down on a steep line to the ball (because he uses upright equipment) ...he comes in down the line and steeply into impact…so what happens… his pivot stalls so his shoulders stop and stay vertical and steep and his arms and hands straighten into impact and beyond….and his club closes considerably when re- appearing up above his shoulder on the way thru to the finish because his hands and arms are swishing the club thru and not his body turn..Then his body gets going again and he makes his finish
So don’t be fooled by a flat backswing as it doesn’t necessarily mean a flat shallow entry into the ball.
What Kuchar does takes tremendous timing on a daily basis to slap, stall and square everything up in an attempt to hit the ball straight. He can do it because it is his job and he practices many hours a day every day to time that move…. unfortunately like I said your regular joe doesn’t have that luxury, so the timing of the dump into the ball with a stalling pivot (largely due to upright clubs that need to be bottomed out at impact) is much harder for your average golfer to do and total inconsistent ball striking and flight patterns appear day to day or even hole to hole.

If you swing the club more around and around by getting an assist from flatter lie angles the tightness of impact is easier for control and you still keep power by using a rotating body sequence instead of quitting the body to let your hands catch up.

Hugo on your advice I put my first set of blades in.. Wedge is d5 slowing going less weight to my 2 iron which is at d2 1/2
Let’s see how it goes
Cheers bodo

Good Luck Bowdo…..doing the right things will only stack the deck in your favour to play well and more consistently because we have different feelings every day. Better to have some weight in there to help you feel the head for the off days and give you even better feel for the days you are really on.
Hit them well.

I’m glad you are back and frankly have no knowledge of why you ever left. The site was definitely the poorer for your continued absence.
Just one question if I could please.
Even back in the days when I could still play ( a bit) , using a taped iron and an impact board , my contact would invariably show mostly towards the toe of the club. This was the Henry Griffits system as I recall and the belief was that using a more upright club would ensure that the contact would subsequently become more centred. Are you saying that altering the lie angle to suit the swing just helps ingrain faults, and that if I forced myself to use clubs that were (say) 3 flat rather than ( as now ) 2 upright I may in time learn to swing more effectively.

simonsez…let’s have a little think about it.
What we have to realize is that club lie angle at address is basically unimportant. Lie angle setup really represents our impact position.
Even though people use upright clubs they very rarely set up with the club soled properly, so the toe will sit up at address. If you use clubs that are upright just visually seeing that will alter you idea into impact. Instinctively you will raise your hands up to try and get the sole of that club to even out with the turf- whether you know it or not—your brain is smarter than you and the visual look of the club makes your instinct do that even if it is subconsciously.
So say you used club 2 degrees upright and did a measurement of your hands in relation to the ground and your body at address. For eg, we could say your hands are 27 inches above the ground and 5 inches from your belt or girth.
Now what happens when you swing and try and return that visually looking upright club into the ground with the sole bottoming out even with the turf?
1) You will raise your hands up to try match the lie angle correctly
2) The distance between your hands and belt/girth starting point will elongate and become larger in distance

So I would say because of the hands raising into impact you are now actually bringing the club across the ball and hitting the ball towards the toe of the club…
Hard to explain 100% in words….but grab a club and a ball and start off normal at address then take a slowish or mini swing and raise your hands up through impact and stop at the ball (to try match a more upright lie angled club) and see that you are essentially pulling the clubface inward toward you as your hands raise up… no surprise really that a toe hit would result.
It is all based on timing but clubs too upright will make the body quit, the hands raise and then it all depends on how much you slap and roll as to the quality of the strike…and if you can somehow square the face up while all that is going on
Flatter clubs make you instinctively want to bring the hands in lower through impact (remember the brain picks this stuff up) and you come closer to imitating your address position at impact… so nothing much changes as drastically throughout the strike….so over time things become easier to manage because you are rotating the club through on a truer plane instead of quitting, stalling, slapping and raising all at once and relying on pot luck for a decent shot.

GN 1965:Thanks so much for taking the time to provide such a comprehensive answer.It will take me a while to actually absorb it all and even longer to “experiment” with.
Have to say that when I brought a set of Ping Eye 2+ irons( back in the day) my hcp dropped from 10 down to 5 .Considering my almost total lack of ability, it seemed to me that technology was king and that I should take advantage of any “help” it could give me .Recently bought some (2nd hand) Ping Rapture V2’s btw which probably epitomise the sort of club you’d most despise and they are 2* upright as well.At the very least I’ll have to try to get an extended trial with some flatter lies to see if my brain can make the adjustment you describe.
Do you think that there are actually people ( like myself) who are so lacking in physical ability that technology is the only thing that can save them ; or can we all improve in time using the methods you describe?

Was talking to my old man about this yesterday – and he’s dug up a dozen or so hickory shafted clubs from under his house (that he had re-gripped!) and also my old Country Style 5’11” swallow-tail twinne (with flyers and channels).

Goin surfin at Bendy this weekend (yeeeooow)!!!

I’ll hit a bag of balls later…

Anybody can reach a decent level based on their desire- their understanding- and importantly their ability to do the right things to work towards improvement.
The difficulty with what we have today- Golf Channel- magazines galore- DVD’s- Videos- Internet—Swing programs- launch monitors- there is way too much information out there from far too many inconsistent sources. Too much based on theory and sticks & lines on a computer screen and not from first hand under the gun experience.
It honestly doesn’t take much understanding to learn nearly all you need to know by watching your ball flight and your divot and your contact point on the club…unfortunately the over load of info can see 2000 people telling you 2000 different things about the same idea.
The hardest thing in today’s golf world is to make your own mind up based on trial and error or your own experiences—because God knows anyone will try and tell you anything to make money or to fill up air space or magazine space…lots of fill in stuff that holds little relevance to striking a ball properly ….but once you hear it…it’s in your system and you fiddle with it, think about it and wander off into 25 different trains of thought about that one area that really only needs one logical feel or thought. Overload. We don’t give ourselves enough credit…you probably aren’t un-coordinated (as you think you are)....you just have never been dealt the correct information to process and put into process or if you were you didn’t know it at the time, so you fleeted by it and onto the next new thought someone spoke of with regards to the setup or backswing or whathaveyou.
.that has actually become of a huge part of why I now enjoy teaching and passing on my knowledge- because I trust and hope my students realize I lived through it all and am man enough to not bullshit them into doing something that has no bearing on them improving. I only tell them truths and what to do and importantly how to feel it for themselves so they can become their own teacher and make me extinct from their golf future…..all for their own benefit. I don’t want to just stick my hand out every 2 weeks to a student and collect. i want them to truly get it, find it and keep it so I give them all the correct info to work towards for a long term future of better golf. As soon as they understand I am long term and not just a quick fix teacher they start to get it and learn better as they slow down the urgency to get too much all at once.
So given the correct info anyone can do just about anything in this game, but give them a needless mess of nothing then they may as well tie themselves up in knots.
In other words I will never stick a band aid on people..because that’s waste of my time having to watch them come back in 2 weeks time and hit balls with the same problem and a waste of their time and money.
I haven’t spoken too much about the swing and faults and hows and whys because that is my student information but until people fully grasp that one of the reasons they struggle is because of the equipment they are using then their window of improvement won’t get much larger… It’s a fight because not many people want to believe ‘out of bounds’ talk about equipment because they think it’s new it got to be the best and because they think the club companies have their interests at heart…bottom line is $$$... companies thoughts are to build a club that brings distance and fixes a slice so they can make a killing as that is your poor to average golfer’s major problem…they want to hit farther and not slice so they give you lighter longer clubs with upright lies that hood the face at impact and have lower lofts to cover your insecurities….the companies don’t care if it ruins the golfer down the road because they’ll just produce a newer version next year and flog that as even better and the suckers will come and buy it again.

I know this a golf forum but here is a beautiful short film that epitomises the openess that surfers have to design that I think golfers could learn from:
dane reynolds board swap

The point being how experimenting has improved their surfing and stoke levels = GN’s idea of hitting old clubs occasionally to improve golfing and stoke levels

ok no more segways from me I promise

There are these golden periods in society/culture where things tend to thrive for various reasons (economics, marketing, industrialisation, technology, etc). I think Lag and BH are saying there was a definite golden period of golfing between (say) 1940-1995 (probably becuase of the reasons above). We only know about this period arbitrarily, becuase of media and video footage that available, etc . . . i guess it’s safe to assume that there has been amazing golf played since day one, but this is how history works for us, we only know of what was documented.

It seems perfectly reasonable for Lag, etc to look at the equipment used during this period and to draw some conclusions about what the equipment was, how was it set up and used, etc. This is what any student of history would do. Marshal McLuhen said many years ago that the medium is the message (ie. that the tools that we use shape the outcomes more than any other factor).

I don’t use flat and heavy, but I have been playing older style clubs for about 12 months and love them. Personal choice. I hit them heaps better than the modern gear I have . . . just a personal observation . . . could be many factors like fit, etc. But I just feel more connected to them as tools.

I’m a shithouse hacker, and very new to the game, so it’s not like I’m pushing some sort of elite level or anything. But I just really enjoy using the older stuff, and I love that there are people like Lag and BH talking about this gear with passion. Name another art/profession where there isn’t this level of differing views? The diversity is what it makes it all interesting.

Good to see a healthy discussion going on. lol. Apologies to Brad for dragging you into this. Didn’t realise the thread would go nutso.

Can someone tell me who Zen is? I wish other pro’s would come out, so we know who’s saying what.

That’s a much more understandable and enjoyable post their GN.

You talk of everyone elses theories, but state your views as if they are fact, not theory? Isn’t that what most others do too? Simply saying it’s true doesn’t make it so.

If the stats on the PGS are poor because of this, then why doesn’t someone who is smart, someone with the knowledge you have in regards to swing weight and plane, take the tour by storm? If they have a great strong accurate swing surely they could still use the new driver to get the distance advantage, then clean up hitting greens?

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not disagreeing with your views, just asking this as it doesn’t add up. Even with the latest gear, the most accurate golfer should win? Back ‘in the day’ players still had to make putts, it’s not just that is it? Or are you saying it’s not ‘fair’ that players with exceptional short game and putting skills should win?

So what do you think of the ball striking of Westwood, Kaymer, Donald and Mickelson, the top 4 players now? Are they really that bad with irons compared to 40 years ago? They do have great short games I guess.

I still don’t think it’s as cut and dry as you make out, but yes I’m way out of my depth, happy to admit that, as I said, I’m a student here to learn.

Your last point about The hardest thing in today's golf world is to make your own mind up based on trial and error or your own experiences’€”because God knows anyone will try and tell you anything to make money or to fill up air space or magazine space is exactly why I decided to build a swing using what I see as the most efficient and accurate information I could find, the PST program Zen uses. It has saved me countless hours of messing around and also helped me deal with an aging body with a bad back!

I have more to think about than just hitting the ball well. I have to think about doing that whilst looking after a body that is approaching 50 and taken it’s fair share of abuse : )

Great hearing your views here I must say, I do respect your opinion as you certainly have a proven record of performance, cheers.

Thanks for your posts GN.

Are you saying that if you have clubs of today (myself I have forged irons that are 2 degrees upright) and have lie angles that are upright you should have them adjusted to 2 degrees flat or standard?

What is the remedy.

Appreciate your posts

what’s your thoughts on shafts BH if you don’t mind?

game improvement irons have heavy heads, whereas blades are super lightweight comparitively (heads i’m talking about), so to get the swing weight up in our lightweight blades, do we need super thick and heavy stiff steel shafts?

i play 105 gram reg’s in mine, that’s enough flex to get a decent ball flight, just wondering what the trade off is here in what you’re talking about with needing more weight but using blades

stiffer shafts for me, even with my relatively high swing speed tends to give me a lower ball flight and less distance by about a club or so, also makes getting long irons to stop on the dance floor a little harder

Stinkler,
What you will find is a crappier less consistent swing can get away with a little more today in the pro ranks. Pros can somehow time the slap because of constant grinding. Your average Joe doesn’t have that luxury so the new equipment is really hurting them more than aiding them because their swing is never getting improved upon and the basics are getting crushed more and more over time as they practice less and aren’t forced to swing the club in the proper motion.
Most pga players are basically the same from tee to green these days…a few better than others and a few worse than others, as the actual art of having to hit the ball flush in the middle is lost as the clubs and the ball not curving make mishits not as severe. So your true ballstriker is lost, the whole playing field is leveled out and pro golf is a putting contest now more than ever. Especially when you can smash it as hard as they want and hit 9 irons into par 5 holes from the rough. Driving the golf ball is a joke as Woods and Mickelson have proven the past 5 years. Up until 1998-2000 driving the ball was still an important integral part of the game as shown by Faldo, Norman, Price, Pavin, Sutton, Montgomerie…great drivers of the ball relentlessly hitting into the fairway and winning consistently. they all got overtaken by smashers with no control….then it became a pure bomb it and putt the eyes out game.
Look I won’t go in depth here much because I feel I will have to just rehash everything over and over like the Lag thread and my SMTM and I will probably end up butting heads with someone and saying something I will regret.
The differences between what I teach and what some of that other stuff teaches is this:
Computer screens, monitors, data printout…whatever…never ever seem to allow you to be perfect ….there is always something they want you to strive for based on data. Data is taken in sub normal golfing conditions also. Normally on a driving range from a flat lie with a computer readable golf swing being the obsession. So for starters right there people are trying to do things differently than they would when on a real golf course in a real situation.
On a golf course we have varying lies, different slopes to contend with, different trajectories of ball flight we are after, draws, fades, low, high, soft, hard, position and power….that shows you golf is more art than science. You need to be able to feel all that stuff and not try plop a number up on a screen that impresses the judges….. I teach the game as a multi dimensional game and an artistry of feel and motion based on THAT person’s abilities… not everyone can bend as much, or rotate as much, some have short fingers, weak wrists, skinny legs, fat guts….you can’t model everyone after a model. That’s why my teaching works because it becomes that person’s natural instincts and capabilities based around the proven ideas- and me not trying to make someone they can’t really ever be….and if you look at all the great ballstrikers- NONE of them swung alike…they all had their own flair and swing personality

---

but they all did it correctly in the right part of the swing to be as good as they were
when you become swing position and printout number oriented you whole game gets disorientated.

Thanks mate, all makes sense.

I might add that the 9i that they are hitting into the par 5 is probably the same loft as a 7i from some years ago with a low CGI that gets the ball up quicker and a ball that spins and holds the green! : )

ingy
Shafts….from my experience the stiffer the shaft the better not just for the pros but also for most people who can get some sort of speed with their swing.
What’s the biggest thing we see with average golfers?... throw away… they release the club early to try and create speed ..(the wrong way mind you) because you should not be putting much stress on the shaft until close to impact and then beyond the strike…but it’s the old hands arm swing rearing it’s head again
So…if you release the shaft early you are releasing the energy stored up…. the shaft will bend and timing of impact with regards to face angle and such becomes even more critical to time. A stiffer shaft can possibly lessen the chances of hitting one crazily off line when doing this….but no real guarantee … A weaker shaft really needs to be swung effortlessly in the hope that you can time the release you are putting on the club and ball. Swing a weak shaft with any force and your chances of success dwindle.
Pre release also gets the clubhead past the hands early so the swing becomes a scoop, a fat, a thin a lotto powerball lucky moment for a solid strike depending on where you body feels like going at the moment of truth to compensate for your screw up.
When the club beats the hands to the ball you aren;t compressing it up the grooves…so you’ll get a lower, thinner, less flighted shot. It’s all relevant really and again gets back to the same upright/flat argument.
:Let’s forget the backswing….....If you swing down upright/steep down the target line too much into the ball for impact the odds are your body will stop and your hands will play catch up.. so the clubhead is again passing your hands early
If you swing flatter and around, your body turns better and rotates and brings your hands into impact ahead of the club…there’s no two ways about that.

Out of curiosity GN, if you were to play, or when you do play 18 holes, what driver/woods do you put in the bag and what specs do they have? (Loft, lie, weight)

Stink again…
I can see how data input and the like can help someone like AB Long Driver because he is training with one purpose in mind… distance and power.
He has 6 balls ?? to hit in his comps and really only one of them has to be the knockout shot….the other 5 could go down the Grand Canyon for all intent and purposes
He gets to tee his ball the same height each time from a flat lie and has one club to swing…..So he can base his work and revolve it entirely around data and evidence to help him gain as much speed as he can for his long drive stuff
Golf on a golf course- is not played that way…so you can’t play predictions and make everything the same and try and reduce it to a science….. In reality on a course I could hit 6 different clubs the same distance to the same pin if I felt like it depending on my feel for the shot, if there is a tier in the green, the obstructions/hazards short or long, the weather conditions, the risk reward for such a shot or the standing of the event….how can a machine teach you that?
And without over stating things so you all think I’m a wanker… that’s the sort of stuff I can teach people and do teach people based on my thoughts about the swing….I just don’t hear many/any people out there trying to teach this stuff that way…it’s all flat out 140 wedges and 220 5 irons and that’s it.. do this, do that and whack away…. that’s a poor mentality to play by and a poor mentality to teach by…I don’t just say, I do and if I can’t do something I work it out….because there is absolutely no use me telling a student to do something if I can’t do it myself and show them in person with great results… how could I teach a student a low hook and then they ask me to hit one and show them and I couldn’t do it?...I’d look like an ass…...so anyhow that’s a little more about why I strongly believe in what I teach ( a question which you asked before about what makes me different from the next guy who thinks what he teaches is correct)...

GN1965, I’ve enjoyed reading this. I’ve recently had my clubs flattened and have started hitting the ball much better -however this probably has alot to do with the fact that i’m 5’4”. (disregard my scores in the link below – i only played 7 holes for those 10 stableford points :)). But i do agree with your example above about the mind seeing the toe pointing upwards and making subconcious adjustments during the swing to correct it. I wanted to ask a few questions if i could, because from all i have read, i don’t see any solutions offered:

Firstly, what do you recommend people use. If the current batch of equipment encourages and ingrains bad technique, where does that leave us? I understand your point about higher sweet spots and light vs heavy heads, but what do we look for? We can’t all get our hands on persimmon drivers and 15 year old blades.

Second, I imagine that you still have some sponsorship/association with a manufacturer. I could be wrong here, but if so, have you raised your thoughts with them and what was the response.

Third, just out of interest who of the current crop do you consider a good ball striker, and who is the best ball striker you have played with/seen?

great reading…. Im on the lounge with a box of twisties…not the orange type ;)

My club pro would love this discussion, he is all for one plane/flatter swing, with flat lie angles and heavier S/W, ...for better players with a stronger core.

Ah, I don’t think GN is talking one plane though? Could be wrong?

If someone likes the look of a club then by all means use it. If they are confident standing over a taylor made R9 or a Ping G10 use it…but it would be real important to have it set up correctly to utilize the playing characteristics of it. Alas they even design clubs now in a cheaper cast fashion that can hardly be bent more than 2 degrees for fear of snapping the heads off.
My big point is….PRACTICE with older irons …because the hosels are longer which give the club more head weight and they are normally setup in an ‘underslung’ fashion where the sweetspot is closer to the heel instead of the middle of the face or toe. they are normally shorter in length also which equates to easier to control
I have no hesitation in saying that if you make time to practice with the older stuff you will begin to feel better about your swing because you are igniting your neurons in your head to react and decipher. You get a better feel for what is going on. You feel a mishit and have something to work toward improving on. You will never look at your ‘real clubs’ in the same light again because really they are rubber and steel with grooves on them and a number on the bottom. That’s all they are.
Your brain will gather the info in no time. I kept an old set of my irons set up to how my coach and equipment company way back when said i should have them set up just for a chuckle every now and then..I pull them out and they are brutal.. I have no idea how I could hit them or did hit them. They are 4 degrees upright.
I now play with 5 degrees flat!! I hear gasps.. but…It is not that difficult…you just work in segments…go down by 2 degrees to start and see what happens from there. I would never say whats best for everyone. It all depends on the rotation capabilities of your forearms and your chest and your footwork or ground pressure giving you something to platform from and work off as to just how far one can go.
Every poor player’s nemesis is an over the top move coming down steep….by having your clubs look flat, your brain gets it and the over the top move becomes less and less as you know you need to now bottom that club out on the ground by approaching flatter and not from steeper.
You get to the point where the processing of it all makes the necessary adjustments for you. In fact I practiced the other day with an old old Tony lema set of irons and they were flatter than mine…or felt it anyhow….and I was flushing them because I had to come in shallower and flatter and tighter to hit them well with their small heads…..I grabbed my regular playing set (Scratch Irons) out and set up to the ball and hated the sight of them as they then looked too upright. I had to go bend them down a degree straight away to make them match the Lemas visually that I had been practicing with…and this was all in the space of an hour…I then went back and hit the Scratch irons newly bent down another degree and whizzed about 50 6 irons in a row straight at the sign on the range…a great session of hitting and more importantly learning

If you see my website and see I actually like Furyk’s swing and Garcia’s swing and the intentions of what they are doing( which puts me in the minority!!!)...then you will see I am not for the one plane logic…. only looking for true plane where it really matters most- coming into impact from waist high and existing impact through to waist high
The backswing … is just a motion and movement of the club to set you up for the real task…
plane doesn’t really hold much court in that area of the swing as proven by the greats…if you think it does, then you have your swing priorities in the wrong order

Thanks for that.
Wouldn’t there be side effects in practicing how to flush an older iron with the sweet spot near the heel, then going back to my normal clubs which have a sweet spot more toward the toe?

Also, as i mentioned, i’m incredibly short. Think Mini-Me from Austin Powers, but not as handsome as him. For as long as i can remember, the toe of my various drivers have pointed upwards at address. Should i get my driver bent flat too?? I actually thought about this when i had my irons bent, but thought it might be a stupid question and left it alone.

Can someone tell me who Zen is?

Not 100% but sounds and delivers very much in the mould of ‘Bio’ from around 2009. Left to follow a dream and make his mark in the world of Biomechanics and using same to improve the art form of golf. Would appear that Zenolink may have been that dream. But as I said, not 100% it is in fact him. If not, then apologies to Zen. If it is, then ? answered.

Thanks for that.
Wouldn't there be side effects in practicing how to flush an older iron with the sweet spot near the heel, then going back to my normal clubs which have a sweet spot more toward the toe?

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Yes….that’s what I mean about design of clubs. They are designed to cover flaws not enhance good golf swings. I myself wouldn’t go back to the ‘normal’ ..(abnormal really) after using something else that I can actually get a better feel for and use for enhancements. When I get my students to hit some of my old stuff that’s set up properly and they hit them better it finally triggers their way of thinking. Before that they were only believers they couldn’t swing those clubs because society said they couldn’t…. they had no real confirmation…most of them end up practicing with older stuff…(at least one club) and they all leave their real clubs for me to bend down flatter. Because again if you don’t know..you don’t know. They had been told something entirely different for years by club companies, club fitters and pros who were selling equipment… not building golf swings. So I have no qualms about them still using their ‘techno’ stuff so long as they realize unless we can alter it some, it isn’t going to be a long term ideal. ..I don’t want them spending more and more money on clubs so they can still use their stuff…but altered….and then you have ebay or op shops or garage sales….you can find some real good stuff on there for next to nothing…full sets of good conditioned old clubs practically given away because no-one understands or realizes just how useful those things really are or can be. I’ve bought full sets of almost perfect conditioned irons for $40…on ebay….you can’t even get a dozen balls for that price

heel sweetspot…...this is what all good players looked for in an iron. Again to find the sweetspot there you had to come in from a flatter angle rotating the club into impact with your hands coming through lower

It’s teaching and training and feeling…you don’t even have to understand half of it…

Whilst what you are advocating is certainly very different to the “company line”, I for one am certainly on no position to say you are wrong.Probably best to just get one of my older irons and have it bent 3* flat and see how it goes with practice.
Really hope you can stick around here.
Why” GN 1965” btw? Any significance?

For as long as i can remember, the toe of my various drivers have pointed upwards at address. Should i get my driver bent flat too??

If you are short (Mini-Me) then the added length of the drivers today is going to make the toe appear that way…so of course you are going to try and raise your hands and try bottom that club out when you strike the ball.
Today’s drivers you really can’t bend.. they now have adjustments you can make with settings you can alter but it is only marginal. So most are s.o.l with regards to that unfortunately. Older clubs were all flatter in lie by nature…again no surprise because most of them were designed by Hogan, or Tony Pena or Tommy Armour…real golfers who understood the logic of making the swing build around the club…not to build a club that masks flaws.
The sad thing about all these adjustable heads for loft, lie, weight, cog etc is that again…they are hiding a flaw in your swing….so you enhance your problems because the club may allow you to get away with making a poor swing and get a decent result on occasion. However your swing progressively deteriorates even more because you aren’t getting the feedback the brain needs to make adjustments.
Give your brain and body some credit….it can and will do what is necessary to adjust and head towards the right swing adjustments ….just like we instinctively raise our hands and stop our body and flip our hands to make the light upright clubs be hittable… our body can on the flip side adjust and swing the better set up flatter heavier equipment in a comparable way to make them work with more controllable mechanics and swing guidelines for better control and similar distance. We all just think we can’t as we have been talked out of it.
Wouldn’t you much rather hit it 250 in the fairway or to a hittable position than 270 in the trees or a fairway over…distance from the tee is irrelevant if you can’t utilize it effectively and set yourself up for your next shot.

No significance to GN1965…I picked a friends initials and the year he was born

I know it’s a different line of thinking….but my job is to make people better golfers… not sell them equipment and make $$$
The ball doesn’t have a clue who is standing above it….it does what it is told to do…..if the swing is done correctly it will do what it is meant to do…
that’s why I try and put the power to do that in my students hands on a more regular basis by giving them the most opportunity to achieve that goal.

Dear Mr Hughes,

I could not be bothered searching through the dewey system in my local library (or be bothered to google) so I have no idea if you have covered this subject so here goes:

Could you tell me what your thoughts are on broomstick or belly putters?

Should the belly putter and broomstick be banished or do you pity their souls as the the long stick is a rampant advertisement that states in flashing lights “I CANNOT PUTT!”

What is your view on putters? Should we be persisting with Blade putters like a Wilson 8802 or Bullseye or even a more modern Anser style or can we plead guilty and resort to those whacky space station mallets and long sticks?

Long putters in my opinion aren’t a golf stroke and should be banned. probably too late now as they have been around so long but they should have jumped on it early but missed the boat again… some say they didn’t ban them because the original GW Bush used one around that period and his family have been involved in golf for years.. you can do a search on this subject to find out exactly how involved they were..many may not know it….so they couldn’t say no to the Prez so they were there to stay
I used a long putter back in 1993 Aust Masters when I won….I have been labelled as a user of the long putter but in reality I used a long putter for 10 events in 1993…for my Masters defence in 1994 and at Coolum in the Aust PGA last year….12 tournaments out of my entire life but I have been forever labelled as a proponent of the long putter because of that one win with it..
They aren’t a golf stroke because you are pinning the club to your body and making a shove with one hand. The golf rules prohibit pushing the ball, scraping the ball, or using equipment that may give you an unreasonable advantage….case closed there… they word the rules as if the long putter should be on the ban list but then they don’t do it….
The main thing about putting is to try and putt similar to how you swing a club…so that way you don’t lose feel by having to do an entirely different motion.
The main other drama with putters themselves is that our clubs get shorter and heavier as we get to the green and then you get on the green they give you something even shorter than your wedge yet as light as your driver…very easy to lose feel and I think that is a huge part of why we see many golfers who are good ball strikers look average at putting and also vice versa…good putters be average ballstrikers…. this is a theory myself and Lag are working on with regards to putting….not entirely proven as yet so I won’t guarantee it 100% but it seems to be a good step in the right direction…..having a putter set up with similar characteristics to my wedges so when I get to the green it’s not as if I have a foreign object in my hands.

OK, back to our main discussion here.
The rules basically are this:

You can use UPRIGHT clubs if you want to swing upright into impact and want to slap your hands at the ball with minimal body usage.

You can use FLAT clubs if you want to swing more around and around on a semi circle type arc and want to use not only your hands but your body to turn the club into impact and beyond.

You CAN’T or SHOULD’NT use flat clubs with an upright swing
You CAN’T or SHOULDN’T use upright clubs with a flat swing
Doing these options doesn’t get the club on the ground properly for consistency of strike

You can have a flat backswing and an upright downswing and approach (not advisable)
You can have an upright backswing and a flat downswing and approach (much better option)

Now let me tell why the options of a flatter swing REALLY outweigh the options of an upright swing

The best way to test this yourself is to tee a driver up and drop to your knees and address the ball….so you are pretty much half your normal height.
NOW…in slow motion go back with a shoulder turn and then bring the club back to the ball somewhere along or near the target line like we are told to do or are prone to do (example 1)
and watch what happens with your club

NOW…..in slow motion go back with a shoulder turn and then bring the club back to the ball on a flat path from way behind your back (example 2) and again watch what happens with your club

the differences are HUGE….

if you come down as suggested in the 1st example (near the target line or down the line or on plane as some even suggest)... you will notice the club approaches the ball from a steep angle. And as you progress towards the ball the club has every intention of bottoming out behind the ball into the ground…so what do you do?...you stop you body and have to flick your hands to get that club onto the ball for contact and the clubface will roll around and square contact will be difficult to come by

If you come down as suggested in the 2nd example (from around your body/behind your back) you will notice the clubhead gets down much lower to the ground sooner, so it will approach on a shallow angle. As you progress towards the ball with the club it does not have to be manipulated at all as you will instinctively start to turn your shoulders and torso to get the club back to ball. This always keeps the hands leading, low point is established out ahead of ball contact and the clubface never rolls around because the body is rotating it through

There’s your flatter V upright logic…. the greats of the past knew it and their swings were built around equipment that allowed it.

If you feel lucky try hit the ball from your knees also..(teed up drivers only.. because you need the ball in the air as we can’t ever get our clubs flat enough to hit an iron off the turf from this position)...
..If you come down steep you will 8 times out of 10 hit behind the ball into the ground and you club will flick upwards .. coming down steep and then existing steep… the 2 of the 10 you may actually make contact with will go all over the place anyhow because the precision of timing that face squarely with a steep, stall and slap action is a very difficult proposition.
If you repeat the exercise and hit a ball from this around the body flat shallow approach….not only will you hit ball first…you will surprise the crap out of yourself as to how straight you can actually hit the ball…why?.... because the shallow flat path helps eliminate independent hand action and body stalling

I do this to show my students the why and the how and the benefits and am approx 249 out of 250 balls hit flush and straight. Not because I can play golf…but because technically it is easier because less bad things can happen and more good things can happen.

If you then also understand that a bit if head weight also makes us feel the head and helps keep that club behind us when we swing, instead of throwing a lightweight feather out on the steep path…. then you get it and can start to build towards some better golf shots..
the clubs won’t do it all for you, but they will help set you up to achieve this action into and through the ball

This is a long winded post but it is VERY important to understand the reasoning and the why and how and hopefully shows ome of the non believers that I am not trying to blow smoke up anyone’s rear by being so adamant about it.
Again.. if you can forget what you are told by club makers, club fitters and many teachers who don’t get this stuff…you will be well on your way to getting some improvement and stack all the aces, kings, queens and a few jacks in your hand…whilst you leave the other guys holding the crappy 2’s and 3’s and 4’s in their hand.

GN, I’m really enjoying your in depth posts. Hope there’s more where they came from.
Can you expand on the follow thru section on your website. You’ve got photos of the great ball strikers with their high and vertical shafts. I have a mental picture of Hogan’s finish – looks like he has just thrown a large fishing net; or being pulled high by the club. Is this something that the Average Joe should be working towards? I am asking this because my finish finishes about shoulder high.

GN I went through your website, a stellar effort.

If you have an upright swing with upright lie angles, are you advocating changing your lie angles to flat angles which will make your swing flatter and better in the long run?

Both times i have had my lie angles checked i am told i am upright. And my lie angles changed accordingly.

Is that becase they are checking lie angles with current equipment?

Would I be better off having my angles checked with old clubs?

The issue of lie angles confuses me, chicken and egg, if someone gave me a club 5 degrees flat, naturally, my hands would be lower and flatter promoting a flatter swing?

i am confused!!

Thanks in advance

thanks to this thread i’ve just pulled the trigger on another set of clubs, pure titleist 695 MB blades (zero offset and a sweet spot the size of a pin head, oh, and extra stiff shafts)

can’t go hiding my faults anywhere in those babies

thanks brad, my gear ho’ing ways will no doubt upset the little lady, but i’m just too curious about which way the swing and handicap is going to go with these things in my backpack

i’ll give it 3 months of solid practice before i make the call and will report back, so you better be sticking around…

:)

Can you expand on the follow thru section on your website. You've got photos of the great ball strikers with their high and vertical shafts. I have a mental picture of Hogan's finish – looks like he has just thrown a large fishing net; or being pulled high by the club. Is this something that the Average Joe should be working towards? I am asking this because my finish finishes about shoulder high.

This is a result…not an effort. You don’t just reach for this point.. it happens because of all the wonderful dynamics and swing intentions in place beforehand.
If you swing down hard or steep and your hands dump at the ball then what are you going to look like on the way through and up to this point?....certainly not that
you’ve down your dash early in the swing and folded up your tents with overkill of acceleration in the wrong area of the swing.
It all ties in to what I have mentioned previously in my posts…
that position is a happening not a reach for look…..a true sign that things have held up pretty well in the swing to this point… from there just give it your best Seve, Arnold, Jack or Shark finish or however you want to do it

This swing of myself from 1989 shows a lot of what we have been discussing…. last frame is the look you asked about numbers

thanks to this thread i've just pulled the trigger on another set of clubs, pure titleist 695 MB blades (zero offset and a sweet spot the size of a pin head, oh, and extra stiff shafts)

can't go hiding my faults anywhere in those babies

thanks brad, my gear ho'ing ways will no doubt upset the little lady, but i'm just too curious about which way the swing and handicap is going to go with these things in my backpack

i'll give it 3 months of solid practice before i make the call and will report back, so you better be sticking around…

:)

step on the shaft and bend them down too….or get someone with a loft lie machine to do it for you!!!..... for all the reasons stated above
slowly but surely,
that’s why I tell students to buy old stuff on ebay for 30 bucks and do whatever you want to it…bend it, put lead tape on it,...the old forged clubs bend much easier so you can play around a bit more with them and bending etc to find what suits you to begin with visually and feel wise…and if you screw them up somehow by overbending and snapping the head or if u don’t want to put lead tape on nice shiny clubs…..you’ve only dropped $30 and not $800

You may as well set everything up in your favour for an assist… the swing is still important but now you are giving yourself an opportunity to start feeling YOUR swing based on the correct logic, so you won’t go outside the city limits as much when you get the feel for it and begin using better swing promoting tools

Was checking http://www.youtube.com/watc... (4.51) out and found it very interesting.

I note you say you can’t take too much head in what a swing looks like, it’s really about the dynamics and intention that’s happening underneath the surface. How do you work those dynamics out?

I can’t get a timeline to show up on the vid Stinkler….I waited and watched and around the 4.51 mark I think I saw a commercial for BBQ sauce….went through about 9 mins and never saw anyone hit a shot the last 8 mins and 30 secs…just bunker shots, putting, Haas interview, commercials and a scoreboard

And they wonder why golf on tv gets poor ratings!!!

My bad, was watching golf on veetle, I’m obsessed, I’ll fix it, sorry.

GN, I asked Bowdo on his thread if he took your advice and changed a few things with clubs etc and he confirmed he did and shot a great score today! Proof is there!

Now he wants some putting help!!

I think you should come back to Aus for a weeks clinic paid for by ISG for all the members…..

went through about 9 mins and never saw anyone hit a shot the last 8 mins and 30 secs…just bunker shots, putting.

And they wonder why golf on tv gets poor ratings!!!

But everyone loves watching putting. Well they must if they love modern equipment which is making the short game too relatively important.

I can't get a timeline to show up on the vid Stinkler….I waited and watched and around the 4.51 mark I think I saw a commercial for BBQ sauce….went through about 9 mins and never saw anyone hit a shot the last 8 mins and 30 secs…just bunker shots, putting, Haas interview, commercials and a scoreboard

And they wonder why golf on tv gets poor ratings!!!

Certainly know the rankings of the f*cking fedex cup though!!

Certainly know the rankings of the f*cking fedex cup though!!

I certainly don’t jump on my computer with lust or watch the scores on screen roll by so I can check out the Fed Ex Cup rankings!!

Great free money for the players but I don’t believe it makes one iota of difference to a golf fan and I certainly don’t hear people scrapping their US Open or Masters betting pools to do a Fed Ex Cup standing pool instead

Certainly know the rankings of the f*cking fedex cup though!!

I certainly don't jump on my computer with lust or watch the scores on screen roll by so I can check out the Fed Ex Cup rankings!!

Great free money for the players but I don't believe it makes one iota of difference to a golf fan and I certainly don't hear people scrapping their US Open or Masters betting pools to do a Fed Ex Cup standing pool instead

Totally agree. Seems like a shameless attempt by the PGA to promote their own tour.

Early season rankings mean nothing anyway as the events near the end of the season count for so many points.

Would be a novel idea to show some more golf outside their featured pairings rather than all the bloody fedex and presidents cup rankings….

Brad,
I don’t diagree with flat swings, I have a flat swing and will never change it either, Although your missing my point, you can still have a flat swing and still need standard of a few degrees up right.
Can’t you have your hands at chess high and still swing flat? keeping the arms chest high, lay the club off and keep the club on a flat plane, just like a baseball swing. So at impact the hands will be higher, but still a flat lane swing.
Lie Angle is about the face been square at impact, it’s to upright at impact the ball starts straight and then hooks. Wedges you hit big pulls, To flat lie angle square at impact the ball starts straight and then cuts right, wedges straight push right and you lose yardage.
Having the right lie angle is critical and it’s not based on swing plane, it’s to do with get the right lie angle dyanically so the face is square at impact. Any good fitter worth their salt will fit dynamically.
I do agree fitting indoors isn’t the way to fit and I’d never get fitted indoors either with a ball flight monitor.
Brad that’s where you have to look at this a tad differently, it’s not about fitting everyone to flat clubs, it’s about finding the right lie angle for the golfers being square at impact. A lie angle board doesn’t lie it shows up what you need and the ball flight tells the story. You can still have standard lie and still have a flat swing.

In regards to Styles he’s just not scoring but is hitting more greens in reg than he ever has. The reason he stopped doing Lag’s modules it didn’t suit him and started striking the ball real bad. But Styles is swinger that’s how he’s played all his lfe, so why change that, it’s how he plays so all he’s doing is fine tuning his engine now.
End day, all i want is athlete get better, you can bag me if you like, But these people we have tested won’t Faldo, price, Els, Norman, Floyd, Gay and may other US tour player and LPGA players have worked with us, so we must be doing something right. We continue to have more and more players coming to us so what we do must work.

We have to remember however that post impact activity really has a huge purpose in the swing…especially because what we see after impact is in direct correlation with what happened coming down into impact… impact is the object…but the before and after dictate it.

If we look at the pic below… Ben Hogan V Brian Gay…...

• Shaft angle at impact- Hogan’s points into his belly center… Gay has raised into impact and sent his shaft line upwards towards his pec area
• On the way through Hogan has rotated his shoulders nicely around bringing the club with it with no independent hand action….Gay has stopped his shoulders (much more vertical compared to Hogans) so his hands throw off the body and we see the clubface rolled over
• Hogan is also exhibiting better ground forces by keeping knee flex and building a grip to be able to rotate off on the way through. Gay is stiff legged to make room for the arm throw

In no way saying it can’t be done…..but you have to be able to practice day in and day out to time that slap…and the pros have the luxury of doing that…and even if they can get away with it…do we actually see many of them piping it down every fairway and every green on a consistent basis?... No…because it is timing issue
My advice helps anyone to gain more because the club stays more in tune with the center of the body which is your rotation point so instead of having your hands roll the club around your body turns the club … so the face just doesn’t veer of it’s course or close or open anywhere near as much.
This is why this is a much better option for people that do not have the opportunity to practice much and have kids jumping on them at night, and work issues that are stressing them out. The more your club turns in tune with your body the easier it is to repeat and outside variances such as job, kids, limited practice don’t throw that ‘timing’ move off anywhere near as much. People whose career isn’t golf just don’t have the hours in the day to time the slap….
A flatter club matching a flatter plane will turn in and stay more in line with the ‘chi’ the center of the body… and not get thrown upwards and outwards like upright clubs and steep downswings make people want to do

I’m not trying to bag anyone…I’m just giving out real information that for some reason no one seems to understand or talk about any more and I think it’s got a lot to do with too many computer screens and data and not enough real life understanding of the engine room that really makes the swing tick and function correctly

I would love to use Greg Norman as an example on a number of things…because 1) we have the same birthday..he’s 12 years older and 2) Norman has been affected by this equipment mess up more than just about any other golfer I can think of.

See pic below:
Norman in 1984 (left)....Norman in 2003 I believe (on the right)

Now we can say sure he’s older or sure he didn’t play as much then but the fact remains his swing lost it’s true beautiful basis and dynamics when the equipment became longer, lighter and more upright.
If you look at the left photo it is beautiful..hands stay lower keeping the shaft of the club in line with his belly button region (the center of the swing)
On the right his his hands have raised dramatically more into the strike and now in line up near is pec muscles…a higher steeper angle.
You can also note in the photo on the right that his shoulders have stalled slightly and not opened up as much so as to allow this straightening up at impact…it’s only a minute difference but more will be revealed about just how big a difference it is in the next photos I post.
So….who’s to blame?.... his coach?...his age?...or the clubs he used?.... obviously it can be seen that he had a flatter lie angle club on the left photo because he is finding that angle at impact and keeping the club in the correct lines of his body that will move the club through for him with greater control

Now if you think it’s all over at impact you are wrong…keeping the dynamic lines continuing on with the correct intentions and movement allow greater control… the swing is not over when the ball is hit…because there are many x-rays we can look at along the way to help us decipher what happened during the swing.

Stalling shoulders…means more hand action…..steeper hands mean stalling shoulders…upright lie angles mean steeper hands… more hand action means clubface roll…..clubface roll affects the balls initial start point and subsequent curvature…..probably more things than that if I really wanted to spell it all out
take a look at the same swing continuation of pics and see what has happened to the clubface….if you are the 3 out of every 1 million golfers that can time this motion and hit it well, then go for it… if you aren’t you are always going to have trouble.If not you need to do something like I am suggesting to try give yourself a greater opportunity to perform better.

their US Open or Masters betting pools to do a Fed Ex Cup standing pool instead

And I really doubt whether Jim Furyk’s win last year did much to promote FedEx stocks. If ever there was a player who would make a young person turn away from the game, he’s your man.
I don’t care about his swing – he’s perfect at impact, which is what counts – but his slow play drives me nuts and he’s the least exciting player on tour. I’ll happily have his bank account though.

On the main topic –
I saw Norman play many times in the 80s, was present when he won his first Australian Open in 1980. I saw Ballesteros in 1977 and saw Nicklaus several times in Sydney as well.
As far as the game goes now from a spectator’s point of view, and I have said tis several times, unless you were around to actually see him in the flesh, you truly have no idea how good Norman was. Not so much how “good”, but how much better than everyone else he was. The difference was night and day.
The worst thing about the new equipment (metal/ carbon fibre shafted drivers in particular) is that they closed the gap between players of Norman’s class and guys who would have been also rans against the best ball strikers. You still have to hit the ball, but there was more opportunity for the truly gifted players to shine. NOrman was known as the best driver of the golf ball ever, and seemingly overnight, that advantage was lost. His persimmon driver would have looked like a modern three wood in size.
GO and watch a PGA Tour event now, and with the exception of, say an Ishikawa or McIlroy, you may as well watch any group at all because they all have pretty similar styles and games. Robotic, with exception of, say the Mickelsons and Woods. Villegas’ and Bubba Watson’s swings won’t last.
Look at Tom Watson’s swing if you are a young player wanting to play well for a long time. His shoulder turn is what has kept him competitive, not his hand speed.
At least Fowler and McIlroy are doing it their own way without a posse of swing gurus hanging around.

GN, what if Norman has rotated his forearms more during the backswing as he has got older? If so he will need to rotate them more post impact which will give the same result.

razaar
much better option is to rotate the forearms into impact, then outrace those hands and arms with pivot speed, especially for someone of his calibre….which is exactly what he used to do when he could come through with lower hands (as shown in my pics) and not have to stall his pivot slightly and play the lifting handsy catch up game
If your body rotates properly thru at a constant speed increase and never slower than the hands especially near the hit and after then the arms come for the ride and whilst they look like they are rolling over and rotating on the other side, technically they aren’t…as they are being pulled along at a rate of knots by the turning… not just doing their own thing.
as shown by the difference in the clubface look up at the top of follow through region there in those pics…the left one is still showing a neutral clubface having been rotated around and thru more aggressively with the pivot…the other one on the right shows the clubface is closed because the arms/hands overtook the workload and some point and the sequence was lost
All very much related to steep having to stall…. to make way and room for the club to catch up and speed up again…that’s independent hand action which isn’t noticeable at full speed by most…but the ball notices it at some at in-opportune times and reacts accordingly.
Norman’s footwork which I will touch on at another time was the premise to really help him be as good as he was and leap years ahead of everyone with sound of compression, consistency of strike and driving prowess…Once Butch tried to eliminate that footwork he was never the same in my opinion…what he did was pure gold.
People laugh at Furyk’s swing but he maintains clubface control all the way throughout his swing better than anyone out there, and about as good as anyone has ever done…hence his very consistent past 15 years even in the age of bombers and gouges.

Greg was out surfing all day before gyms were invented, pretty handy for strength one would imagine…

Which reminds me.
He swings like Norman.
Greg ?
No, Gunston.

Was checking http://www.youtube.com/watc… (4.51) out and found it very interesting.

I note you say you can't take too much head in what a swing looks like, it's really about the dynamics and intention that's happening underneath the surface. How do you work those dynamics out?

2011 will be the best golfing year of my life.

SOP ASC. Boring to the state of serenity

WINNER of ISG Invitational Golf Classic, Rosebud, July 18, 2010

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Brad, would still like you to let us know how you address this? You talk of stalling shoulders and a continual pivot thrust but how do you know this, by feel, still photos? Dynamics and intention underneath the surface? How do you measure that?

In regards to this statement, could you clarify what you mean?

Now if you think it's all over at impact you are wrong…keeping the dynamic lines continuing on with the correct intentions and movement allow greater control… the swing is not over when the ball is hit…

I think I understand, but to say that anything that happens after the ball leaves the club face can in any way influence ball flight is somewhat, well, wrong. If in fact you are talking about the result of previous swing intention showing up in post impact, I get you. I think wording is very important in this aspect, sorry if being pedantic. I guess this would correlate to the ball ‘getting in the way’ of the swing, rather than the swing stopping at the ball?

The idea of post impact pivot thrust has always been confusing to me, why thrust again, to what gain? I see no sense in it, yet.

GN…I do remember Norman’s swing in 1983 when he visited Mt Isa with his new bride. I was fortunate enough to be on hand to watch him hit balls below the first tee, in fact I was the only one there. He mentioned that he hadn’t hit a ball for three weeks. Still all but a few of his shots were pure. The occasional ball would be the smothered lefty, so he must have been working on a release. He definitely had the right foot pedistal, where the right heel moves towards the target through impact.

I dont think GN says it will influence the ball dose he?? i think its a pretty well known fact amongst teachers that the swing is not finished at impact, I think ive read it in nearly every golf instruction book….......... Next time on the course when ya mate hits a crap shot check out his backswing, rather thatn the ball flight, alot of answers there for someone who onows what to look for.

GN keep up the great posts im loving it!! about the only good forum topic on this whole website for some time!!

But the back swing can be done successfully many ways, that’s what GN says, and I totally agree. Do you mean down swing? Of course the swing is not finished after impact, but it’s influence on the ball is. He says it allows for greater control, could only relate to the ball. I’ve seen people hit great shots with terrible swings, even quite consistently, so I don’t know what to look for, which is why I’m asking.

If you know of Lags stuff he promotes a post pivot thrust from what I remember, just wondering if GN does too? Also wondering if so, why, what does it do?

I’m loving reading his views too and I’m simply asking for some clarification of some things so I can see them clearly.

Because most people speed up from the top….they put all their effort into the downswing by pulling the club down with force and too steeply and the speed can’t be retained all the way, so a slow down briefly appears and the stall and dump happens around impact …so then they try speed the club up again to get to their finish and do that with mainly hand action and limited control.
If transition is smoother, and passive and not forced then you have more energy to compress into the ball AND beyond….
the beyond part is continued acceleration or moving the club from 50mph to 55 to 60 to 65 -and so on down the line depending on your strength and capabilities…..not a slow down from 65mph to 55 and then back up to 75 by a re-acceleration based mainly on hand action
There is a BIG difference
There is a time delay in reaction time and actual time throughout the swing also… that’s why I always talk about things forward in the swing that has been caused by things that happened previously…you can’t look at a still shot and study it and expect to get things right based just on that one pic…many previous aspects of the swing to that point lead to that position and that’s also where people comparing their swings to Tiger Woods or Geoff Ogilvy on a split screen is bogus…. lots of different swing intentions, lots of different feels going on, different strength, different body capabilities, lots of internal pressures such as grip pressure, arm pit pressure, feet pressure , rotations of arms, wrists, feet, weight down, knee flex, etc etc going on that are hard to fathom or gauge unless you understand and know by your own feels and intentions what’s really going on underneath that motion.
Do we fight centrifugal force or do we use it. If so where and how?...lots of stuff to take into consideration that I honestly am entrenched in believing that if you can’t do these things yourself your material is limited that you can teach people with.
Most people try force the club down and use centrifugal force for contact and that’s where we see the club flailing away from the body and club faces turning all over the place. You can swing that way but it has to be rhythmical and slower paced to time that dump of the CF onto the ball…and then what happens when the pressure builds up in a match and your heatbeat increases and you speed everything up….?? You’ve lost your entire swing… most of the best strikers of the ball did it an entirely different way and it is no surprise why.

You see the dynamics at work by exactly what I have discussed…. I see arms and club busting off plane and a rolled clubface as it reappears above the shoulder-... others see that as a full release and good extension and don’t know that it is a timing recipe for disaster on a day to day basis… That’s your generic teaching showing it’s head because they are just rehashing something a golf book said or they heard someone say…they don’t get it because they can’t do it any other way and know no other way. Like I said the greats almost to a man did it in a very different manner to what we all seem to hear and read about because most things that make it into our heads it’s all based on observation and guessed at .
Just like your golf channel guys who get on there and tell people the best way to stop a slice is to do a full right hand roll after impact like you are hitting a topspin tennis shot….
In one of my previous posts to Razaar I gave an explanation of a similar look (rotated on way thru) and it is an entirely different feel and thought and intention process and that’s where people get screwed up because they hear topspin lob style and they do it by hands only..and go from bad to worse because of mis information

Thanks GN, got that.

You know, that sounds pretty much like a conversation I would have with Zen, you guys have far more similar than not I’d say. In fact every thing you say makes me feel better about what I’m doing, which is great!

You say you can’t tell by looking at stills, but you use lots of stills yourself. I’m sure if you had an afternoon with Zen checking out what and how they do it you could see the relevance and similarity to your ideas? Not saying you need to of course.

I’m certainly enjoying your posts and learning, thanks. Stink

Dear Mr Hughes,

Your answers and points are very in depth and plenty o respect for you. I have not come across too many other touring pros prepared to go on record with so much technical info!

Good on you and I hope you change golfing habits and attitudes.

Judging by your long responses, I am guessing you are not on the 140 character twitter world. I would love to follow you if you were.

I mean I can tell by looking at stills…. most people may not know what to look for in stills or motion shots because of the generic language and thoughts they are accustomed to and looking at that still as an instant…. instead of an entity of before and after
Plus most people are looking at the golf swing void of the correct equipment weight, length and lie angle to utilize video or still pics to the fullest…so even though me and Zen may sound alike to you the ideas are varied because of these such things and my training and teaching will be different….which we can see by the Brian Gay pics I posted earlier… I know Zen doesn’t coach him but that’s not positions and dynamics I would be striving for if I was his coach or his conditioner. This is all no offence to Brian Gay as he is probably doing what he is told to do and can no doubt play well but he is leaving stuff on the table that could make him even better than he is especially with how great a putter he can be at times.

the great ball strikers of yesteryear built their swings void of computers, video cameras, most didn’t even have instructors.......so how did they do it?

They built their swing with equipment properly designed for the task...here’s a couple of pics of my swing when I was 14 and 15 years old….

heavy clubs…2 degrees flat (prob 4 by today’s standards)...all with zero tuition
How else could I learn to do that stuff??? I didn’t fall out of a golfer’s womb. My first handicap was 29 and I really hardly played until I was 12 years old and could join a club….aussie rules was all I did until golf hit me hard…yet by my 15th birthday with zero lessons I was playing in The Victorian Open , had won my Club Championship had a PB of 9 under 64 and had a 3 handicap….

I read golf magazines and watched golf on tv whenever we could get it on one of the four channels we had growing up. Sure I could try copy other golfers, but don’t people do that today also…. how else could I do just about everything I talk about with regards to the golf swing (shaft pointing to center, right arm bent, shoulders opening, knees flexed, rotated forearms, lag held, and so on)...without having any real idea about what was truly correct or what the great ball strikers all did or what I was doing or how I was really swinging the club?.... I had no video and these are the only photographs I have of myself growing up playing golf at this age… as a friend took them one day because he was testing out a new camera with a zoom and shutter speed.
So I had no reference to visually see and check and dissect and retool…..all I could do is feel the swing and watch the ball and check my divots…and the equipment aided me in doing it all correctly.

I had the proper tools for the job in my hand to guide me along and find how it was done by receiving instant feedback from correctly setup equipment…. and a little bit of hard work too obviously

sidman
Thanks…I have a twitter @bhughesgolf but as you can see find it hard to explain much in less than 140 words!! not because I couldn’t but because you can’t just give half a story…go deep or don’t go at all

I mainly just post golf quotes on there but a bit of fun…. just like my old golf trivia days here on iseek….

Brad, i haven’t read all your posts but who is your greatest influence on the golf swing. Who do you get this info from or is this years of experience? Love your openness, as these websites contain plenty of nobs.

Brad,
How can you comment on how their engines are generating power or what sequence they are moving by 2 Video, you can’t. How can you tell if they are creating the right ground forces as well, you can’t it has to be measured using force plates as well.
To identify how the body is generating power firstly you need to measure the rotational speed of each body segment and the sequence they fire in. In addition you also need to be able to measure the muscular loading which is what creates the acceleration in each body segment.
Gay had great ground forces they were measured, Norman produced the best ground forces in the 90’s compared to the late 80’s this was measured. Greg Norman had a bad hip slide in the 80”s he had to change due to injuries. Because of Normans hip slide in the early days, he now needs a hip replacement. The sliding of his lower body put shear force on his hip joint centres and wore them out. If you look at the pictures you presented. The photo of the 80”s you can see separation between his hips and upper body,they are square to each other, this put rotational talk on his lower body, Also means he didn’t deliver all his upper body speed to the ball. Also you can see to much right lateral bending of the spine, causing compression on his right side of his spine and hyper extension on his left side, causing lower back problems.
In the 90’s you see he has a lot less right lateral bending, his hips and shoulders are more square, so there’s no rotational force asserted to his lower spine, also less right lateral bending, less compression on the right side of his back and less hyper extension on the left.
You pointed out his club face in the 90”s the club face is pointing more face down, he has better hand rotation through impact, which is a better club release, in the 80’s is wasn’t rotated as well, he use to quit and steer a bit dues to the break downs of his lower body. I should know our boys improved Greg’s engine and reduced his poor movement patterns of the 80’s. Greg will tell you himself he was a better ball striking in the 90’s and had less injuries.
Brian Gay, well his kinetic link is pretty good and has great ground forces. He looks like he has stiff legs. It’s called supper stiffening, Norman, Price, Faldo most of these guys do this when measured.
See to generate hip speed is from how you push and pull against the ground, It’s not how much hip turn to generate hip speed.
By pushing and pulling against the ground is how hips speed is produced, The hips turn and accelerate, the upper body lags and the muscles from the hips to the upper body are stretched. Very IMPORTANT, the hips decelerate and supper stiffen. This must happen so the muscles can fire and the upper body accelerates. This can not happens if the hips don’t slow down like Brian Gay does.
This will blow your mind, Norman Gay etc, only turn there hips 5 degrees on the downswing then hips slam on the breaks. Then the upper body catches up, but time the upper body and hips reach impact they are both open between 20 to 40 degrees open left of the target square to each other.
How do these guys do it, creating the right ground forces create acceleration and deceleration of the lower body, Ground forces are what generate low body acceleration.
With all theses like Norman, Gay etc they may have different looking mechanics although I can assure you their engines generated the same power generation process from the ground up, which is called the kinetic link. As long as the have an engine they can use what mechanics they like, flat etc what ever floats their boat.
Greg Norman moved better in the 90’s as biomechanical stand point reducing injuries and put less force and pressure on his body that’s why he changed.
There’s one thing Brad is you need to learn how the human body is designed to move anatomically and how the human body wants to naturally generate speed. The kinetic link is how the body wants to move to generate speed and is the most efficient way the body moves with minimal forces on the body to reduce injuries. The kinetic link in physics is proven the most optimal way to generation motion, power and speed as well. Not only does this apply for golf it applies for tennis, baseball, throwing a ball etc.
We know this cause we’ve been researching this for over 20 years. Greg Norman and Pete Sampras both have a kinetic link, that’s why Greg is quite a good tennis player and Sampras can flush a golf ball. Sampras was a client of ours for years.
You may not like technology but you need biomechanics to measure what the engine is doing and then be able to create an individual training program to train person engine. Every athlete has different biomechanical break downs and needs specific program for them to build and train their engine. Once they have an engine then you can give them the right mechanics.

The majority of my thoughts are from my own experiences.

I had no tuition until I was about 26 years old. Then when I moved to US I decided to take the plunge for another set of eyes seeing I was moving away and my whole world was turning upside down.

Then I got some coaching but it suddenly became a battle because I was being pointed towards things that felt very un natural for me.

It has only been since I stopped playing about 2 years ago that I have been able to look over everything with a fine tooth comb and see what I did originally, what I did with instruction, what gave me the best feel, what messed with my head, what clubs were put in my hands, compared all that past and present stuff with what the greats of the past did and then compared it to today.
Plus I have been fortunate to play with just about all the greatest players of the past 25 years so watching them up close and asking them things helped . Been around the gurus of coaching and had lessons and dinners and listened to their stuff….my biggest break had had to be meeting up again with Lagpressure who knows his stuff and helped me get an even better grasp on things … as he saw me play at my best years ago when we knew each other on the Aust and Canadian Tour…...threw it all in a mixer and got what came out….but with a much clearer head.
Previously I was doing what these coaches wanted me to do but had no real understanding why and it just didn’t feel right to swing in a method style and shut down some of my own individual style in the process.
I look at my young swing and think – crap how did I do that- it looks great
Then I look at my latter swing and think – crap- why did I do that- it looks awful
I soon came to realize where I went wrong as my game gradually dropped and it seemed I was always working on something and could never get it right according to what they were telling me to do…...although I’d have a few good weeks here or there, why wasn’t it that I could play well all the time like I did when I was younger when I had no idea what I was doing but could feel the swing to a tee….

I also thought about equipment changes and really took a long hard look at why I went from one of the longest straightest drivers out there with persimmon and even the first era of metal drivers to just middle of the road within the space of about 2 years….
I then realized tuition seemed based on things that aren’t critical to the true swing…. they concentrate on the slow areas of the swing such as address and backswing because they can see them but forget about the blurr of impact and how post impact dynamics give us a view of the impact and approach….I realized swing plane wasn’t really swing plane as suggested by most gurus
I always had a wide late setting backswing… that was my feel for transition and approach… but next minute I was setting it like Faldo and that eventually took away all the great feel and dynamics I had in my younger swing….I got so worried about the backswing i forgot the rest…..My younger swing which was actually a closer ideal to what I then began to see in the better ball strikers throughout golf history than what I had been toiling away at for 15 years with coaching.

Took a lot of work and thinking and practicing and testing and remembering and feelings …but I feel very confident what I tell me students is correct and importantly I can prove to them it’s correct by hitting balls with them in a variety of ways and methods to show them which helps more and which stands up better long term and also day to day…and back it up by showing them fantastic photos for reference that I have collected over the years proving what I show them was the same intentions as these great hitters of the ball of years gone by.

So overall…this has been a life long trial of doing just about everything possible with a golf swing in practice, in mini tours, in PGA events, and in Majors under the heat of battle…so i am confident I can decipher what was best and what works best, what is easiest to learn and repeat and the best ways to go about it because it’s all my work, not guesswork.

....I’ll tell you right now Norman had better ground pressures in the 80’s and early 90’s based on his right foot slipping out from under him and dragging backwards. His right foot would not give out unless he was gripping the ground like crazy with that foot… Hogan did it, Player, De Vicenzo, Casper too…I did it to a huge extent….all the correct intentions….and that’s how I can see stuff without plates and bells and whistles… because i know what they are trying to do because i know why they did it because I know how to do it based on my own experience and testing and abilities. I see them do this stuff on course, real time under real golf conditions. Your tests are in controlled conditions where they know they are trying to work on something you suggest…not real golf…just like launch monitors aren’t real golf. People go into all that stuff with a specific number in mind to try and reach and don’t swing anything like they would in tournament circumstances.

Please enlighten me about these pics below and how Faldo and Price ‘supper stiffen’ their hips or legs as you suggest…their right legs are bent… Gays was straighter than a honeymooner’s d…
absolutely nowhere near the same…whos stiffening and who isn’t

.....the readers finally have something decent to read on the forum – (their words…not mine) and you want to blow in and try and disprove what I say based on a computer data readout that no-one else can decipher except you….. one of my ISG engineer friends called you out on the data printout you threw out in the open on lag’s site in another time and place because you were reading it wrong and manipulating it to suit.
You’ve got your thread…..go wail away over there in the mystery of zenolink that no-one can be told anything about or know anything about like it’s a secret society. I’ve read your posts for 3 years and all I have ever found out is kinetic link means a movement from the ground up… and Brian Gay and Anthony Kim (both way down the ball striking stats mind you) have improved their ‘kinetic link’ and that Greg Norman has a better ‘kinetic link’ now than when he won 2 Majors and almost 10 others and was Number 1 in the world for 8015 weeks in a row…

Sorry guys…but this really shits me because it’s f’n deja vu all over again

Welcome back Brad, great to see you here again, as you point out, lets hope other “experts” have the grace to stop shitting you so us punters can enjoy your posts.
PS. If you like cricket too, ya missed a pretty good trivia question :)

I thought that’s what these threads were for, to discuss, obviously not, they’re to tell.

Oh well, I’ll spend more time working on stuff I know I need to do rather than discussing ideas.

BTW, I did notice a heap of posts by a GN on the zenolink thread? Must be another GN?

Sorry, please continue.

Brad,
They both super stiffen, super stiffening you have knee flexion.
But these are after impact photo’s, not prior or at impact to point out so people can see.
You have your opinion and beliefs, I stick to measured science, I know how these guys move in thier golfswing and how they generate ground forces.
Greg didn’t have very good ground forces in the 80’s, he had a hip slide, a hip slide is caused from a lack of ground forces and the ability to push and pull against the ground.
And if you knew the phsyics on ground forces you wouldn’t argue.
Tennis, Baseball, golf, create the exact same ground forces patterns to create hips acceleration and deceleration. It’s the same movement for each sport. What physics and Newtons law are wrong as well. It’s how ground forces workis by physicswhen measured with forces plates.
They don’t create a kinetic link during tournaments you just presented pictures of the guys doing creating a kinetic link during a tournament.
Brad this is what I’m bloody sick of peoples beliefs and opinions, oh my opinion counts and listen to me because I’m such and such and I say so.
I’m presenting the truth how these guys bodies move and create speed and power in their golfswings. Not my say so cause I’m such and such and this is my opinion and belief. You don’t like it go back to lag’s forum, I will question you when all your theories are based on your opinion and beliefs not facts and truth about these guys.

With the greatest respect Zen/Bio how many golf tournaments have you won ? Majors, Australian tournaments ? Chook runs ? Anything ?

Stink
I have been discussing…..I have been giving all my thoughts based on my own feelings and comparisons. What I talk about is 100 years old and proven over time. It is nothing new, just been pushed aside by scientific minds who never played golf at a high level, thinking golf is more science than artistry and feel and logic and trying to pin their golf mishaps to something
Zen is the one telling me I am wrong….Apparently I am wrong about lie angles… I am wrong about swing plane … I am wrong about bent knees because supper stiffening actually happens…. I don’t know anything about Greg Norman and he assumes I don’t know anything about kinetic links and I apparently I can’t see this mystical link through my own eyes because of my experiences and understandings by looking at someones motion, I can only do it with plates for readouts.
Very uninteresting stuff because it’s a secret society. At least I come on here and wade thru all the belief and understandings I have and try put it into words for you guys to make it readable for use.
The zenolink is right up there with the Rivers of Babylon ….. like we need secret codes and get shuffled into a room with hoods on so we don’t know where we are and shhhhh we can’t say that or let anyone see the data….. I could tell you anyone and everyone did my cube test and I have their numbers and yep they are getting better
My evidence I am putting forward is ME- what I did- went through- and ended up

I don’t want to hear how Anthony Kim and Brian Gay have great numbers when their stats prove otherwsie.
In driving accuracy Kim has gone from 134th (07) to 159th (08) to 175th in (09) to 190th in 2010… his greens in reg were 73rd in (07) to 71st (08) to 164th (09) to 176th in 2010
Gay’s stats are always try hit fairways because he isn’t long at all and have to putt well to keep up. If his kinetic link was so good wouldn’t he have mustered up another 10 yards with all this theory and training to help him maybe hit some more greens in reg with shorter approaches.

I saw Norman through the whole era. I based my game on his. I played with him a bunch of times. The ground shook when he hit a shot in the 1980’s…. In the 90’s he became a more structured looking robotic swing which ended up with him smashing his club on his neck at the finish…. different swing… different sound….different ball flight…. totally different swing intentions ….different equipment setup and nowhere near the golfer he was.
But I’m wrong…because the data ( you know that data that none of us have ever seen or can even decipher) told me so….

How did Norman’s hip need a replacement?.......because of his swing?....he fell of his wallet?...too much rooting?......having to squat down to get in his ferrari?.... flying everywhere to build golf courses?....you can’t just assume it was a lateral move and pin it on that one thing and say his swing was all messed up and that’s why he needed his hip replaced..
My brother in law just had his hip replaced and he’s an anesthesiologist…... sometimes you just need stuff like that done.

Well…fun while it lasted… talk to you later Bowdo… Pat J knows my number if you ever want to play or catch up in the area

Hope some of you learned something. and I opened your eyes up to the possibilities that are out there if you get away from most of the scams and BS thrown around by all and sundry.

go spend your $$$$ on PST’s…you’ll have a great kinetic link but the ball won’t care much as you’ll still come steeply in and slap at it with a lightweight upright too long club

back to my students now…

PS…Normans right foot slide didn’t come from going laterally… it was from still exerting ground pressure downward into that right foot constantly and rotating so fast thru the ball with his torso on a flat turning level motion, his foot eventually gave out on the grip and slid
Again- If you can’t do it an don’t know…...then you just don’t know

Cheers Hugo all great stuff mate.. Hope the clan is doing well
Where you based these days?
Thanks for all the advice have taken alot in and I will continue to reread it..
How come you leaving? Admin banned you again
Stay healthy mate

Oh yeah I forgot.. My back slips all the time!! Drives me mad!!

Brad,
Hang on dude, you carry on about the club fitting etc,and sorry you talking shite, you can get heavier equipment, you can get fitted flat, I’m 2 degrees flat.
My irons are D8, my driver is D6 slightly lighter so weight is the same dynamically. Blades are still blades, doesn’t matter how big the head is, if your don’t hit the centre of the face, you still get a bad out come. Same with the drivers, you can tell if you hit it off centre, the ball doesn’t go as far if it’s not hit out of the sweet spot.
But if your a decent ball striker you should hit the centre every time any way.
As a player you give a fitter feedback, when i was fitted I said to my fitter feels club feels to light, we kept trying shafts etc until I found a shaft and weight I liked and my ball flight was at the trajectory I wanted.
Just because you need flat lie angles doesn’t mean the rest of the golfing world does. Maybe you had the wrong lie angles, so go shoot the guy who fitted, but don’t go and tell everyone else they need flat lie angle because you did and it’s destroyed every one else on tours swing and the average bear’s
A good fitter will fit you to BALL FLIGHT, not swing plane, swing plane does not dictate your lie angle.
Greg Norman remember he always missed right that because his lie angles were to flat for him, he then got fitted he found he was 2 degrees upright and resolved his issue. Greg Norman than had Cobra make all their clubs 2 upright on the production line, so go and ring up Greg and abuse him while your at it for destroying golf swings as well.
By the way it’s called client confidentiality being a clinical company you can’t release people’s data to the public

P.S,I can’t bull sh#t people they are getting better, it’s in black and white and they see the improvements through their ball striking improving which backs the data.
People come to us because we get results and they will continue to comes to us because we keep on getting results. Not only because the data indicates they are getting better, they see their improvement with their ball striking out on the golf course.

Regards Greg, considering the only hip and back pain he suffered from was when he was striking to golf ball in the 80’s should be enough evidence is why he needed hip replacement. But then data shows the forces exerted on these joint back this as well.
Greg changed his swing because of the injuries he was getting.
If you had any clue about the human body and how it’s designed to move and function you can see his body moves better in the 90”s anatomically the way it’s designed to move reduce his injuries and being pain free.
You have alot to learn bout the human body dude.

Bowdo- In Greenville SC…about an hour and half south of where you are right now in Charlotte

Zen- You have always been an internet forum bully…I have no desire to carry on arguing with you. This was a good thread until you stenched it
It was honest from the heart based on personal experience..
If my thoughts are wrong then I guess Hogan, Snead, Trevino, Nelson, Player and those guys were wrong too.
But you know best because you have a machine that prints out data and those guys only won about 40 majors between themselves basing the swings on the same principles I suggest..

I think you are fairly unreasonable about this kinetic link stuff.
I won gold medals at State track and field.
I was signed to play AFL football when i was 15 years old.
I never played cricket but my mates that did could never get me out when we would play around at school or in the back yard.
I can play tennis, ping pong….whatever…..at well above average standard…..
so I would assume I have advanced ‘kinetic link’ ideals in place and more than that know how it all feels to be able to perform all those various sports at a high level.
To assume I don’t know anything is ignorance and poor taste on your part.with an I know better attitude because a computer told me so.

tell me how Anthony Kim is improving, his stats are off the charts poorer every year…He is happy that he has dropped over 100 places in driving accuracy and greens in reg the past 4 years?

The only time Greg Norman missed shots to the right was when he tried fancy half shots and his body had to stall it’s speed to try and hit these softer shots. His hands and body wanted to fire the club through but his body stopping and slowing wouldn’t allow him. So he stalled, slowed down and raised his hands and left the face open…it’s that simple
This happened when he was trying to protect leads and playing safe. When he was his swash buckling natural self and allow his normal swing to shine through and not be fancy and went all out he would shoot 62 the last day and come from behind and win.
His problem was choice of shot selection and not going by his normal natural instincts….not his golf swing.
Of course we can blame his lie angles and move them upright so the ball will go left more instead of right…again I state my case…. he was never the same golfer after that

I’ll throw it back at you.You have a lot to learn about the swing dude

Oh for F#@ks sake, is it just me but every time somebody who joins this forum, knows what they are talking about but has a view opposed to that held by some here they get attacked.

I have my golf swing, it ain’t pretty, but its mine. It is not TGM, it is not based on Zenolink, but it something that I am working on improving. As to how I do that is up to me. I read through stuff here and go and try it out. That info is for me to best judge how it works for me. As can be seen from various golf swings, set-ups, club selections etc what works for one will not work for another.

As to who is correct here it is up to the punters to make up their own minds. Zenstb you have your views and Hugo/SMTM has his. Let us make up our minds before you drive him away. I for one have enjoyed reading his thoughts and I will take away some stuff from it. There are a couple of topics devoted to your thoughts here and it is a case of each to its own.

As can be seen I proudly use Vision Balls as my choice of balls, I will not go into a topic on Titleist Balls and knock there balls, I will defend my choice of ball in a positive manner but that is it.

So let GN1965 provide his thoughts free of crossfire, some of us enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GN..a quick question about flatter lies…this allows for a higher hand level through impact because the body is furher away from the ball position than as at address?

I for one have enjoyed reading his thoughts and I will take away some stuff from it. There are a couple of topics devoted to your thoughts here and it is a case of each to its own.

I could not imagine any non-trolling golfer not enjoying reading Brad’s thoughts, because they’re sincere. He teaches in the States, he can’t make any money from the audience on ISG, he doesn’t sell books, online tuition or persimmon drivers. This is just his pure passion speaking.

I’ve never seen any pro’s site as giving and honest as Brad’s yet someone yawned at it and a few concluded that his wife is too hot for him? Well one thing I’ve noticed is men who aren’t loaded but have real substance always have hot wives.

And you’re not even seeing 1% of what he gives here. Elsewhere he tirelessly entertains a crowd that would respect him even if they didn’t know who he was, just from what he says and the contributions he makes with well articulated posts and endless articles from past greats scanned in. I wouldn’t be surprised to discover Ben Crenshaw secretly follows him.

I really have no idea why he bothers here, he must wish to give something back to the Australian public or something.

He does online tuition, not that it matters.

Edit, I too like reading his thoughts, and have read all his website.

There you go, I’ve been following him nearly daily for two years online and even around the course a few times and didn’t even know.

Haven’t you checked out his website? : )

A good year ago I did. Maybe he wasn’t doing them then or I simply forgot. Because he definitely doesn’t plug it.

Oh for F#@ks sake, is it just me but every time somebody who joins this forum, knows what they are talking about but has a view opposed to that held by some here they get attacked.

I have my golf swing, it ain't pretty, but its mine. It is not TGM, it is not based on Zenolink, but it something that I am working on improving. As to how I do that is up to me. I read through stuff here and go and try it out. That info is for me to best judge how it works for me. As can be seen from various golf swings, set-ups, club selections etc what works for one will not work for another.

As to who is correct here it is up to the punters to make up their own minds. Zenstb you have your views and Hugo/SMTM has his. Let us make up our minds before you drive him away. I for one have enjoyed reading his thoughts and I will take away some stuff from it. There are a couple of topics devoted to your thoughts here and it is a case of each to its own.

As can be seen I proudly use Vision Balls as my choice of balls, I will not go into a topic on Titleist Balls and knock there balls, I will defend my choice of ball in a positive manner but that is it.

So let GN1965 provide his thoughts free of crossfire, some of us enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Peg has Bear_Vision

SPOT ON

I do agree with brad about upright golfswings, I don’t like upright golfswings either, the club moves around the axis of your spine not up and down, the flatter the plane the straighter you will hit the ball.
Get a dinner plate stand and use this as a representation of a swing plane. The bottom of the plate is impact zone, if you stand the plate upright you will see the impact zone has a small window for the face to be square. If you lay the plate over at least 45 degrees you can see you have a lot larger area for the face to stay squarer for longer.
I have no arguments about flat swings, but to say we all need flat lie angles to accomplish a flat swing in untrue is my point.
What I didn’t like either is bagging technology or what I do. I don’t agree with being fitted with ball flight monitors, totally agree with brad on that, I advise people to get fitted out doors.
I’m being tarred with the same brush and that I don’t like.
Brad has always bagged what I have done and I will stand up and say something and defend what we do.
He can bags us if we didn’t help athlete’s improved, but we do help athlete’s get results. So it’s not right he bags my technology and what I do.
I know how these guys swings function dynamically, it’s not our opinion or belief it’s what the data indicated. We trained their engines, we built their engines, their coach worked on their swing planes.
Brad may not like our technology but doesn’t give him the right to bag it to others. But then again how can he bag something he’s never seen or know what we do.
Respect goes both ways may be if he showed some respect to my work and what I do maybe he would receive the same gratitude.

Zenstb, you are looking like a fool with every post. You are bagging a player who has 25 years experience at the coal face. I come across salespeople like you everyday, pharmaceutical reps, trying to sell me shit that has no relevance except the bottom dollar, all based on facts and figures paid for and doctored by the drug companies themselves. Your opinions are entirely based on someone else’s research and hard work. You describe “my work”, you wouldn’t know how to research two ants screwing let alone know professional courtesy where its due. Reading your other posts about Martin Ayers was a disgrace, and only degrades the people you represent by your immature, amateurish defamatory remarks. I am only a novice loving the comments from these guys and learning, but history will tell you that guys like Brad and Martin will be around for a very long time in the golf industry, and you will be like a fart in the wind, smell and annoy everyone for a couple of seconds and fade away never to be seen again. Brad keep up the great work. Cheers Mutant

swing plane does not dictate your lie angle…...

This opposes all the logic that I’ve been able to muster.

Can someone please elaborate?

I used to have an upright, 2 plane swing, standard lie angle were fine. I’ve since developed/been taught a flatter 1 plane swing and have recently had to have my clubs bent 2* flat.

Does the lie board, lie?

Ahh Mutant, zen has worked with Chris Welch in the development and testing of PST drills so he has actual experience of the research and how the drills actually affect your physical movements.

He is also an advocate because years ago he was aspiring to become a tour pro but had a very bad car accident that completely prevented golf for years. And when he eventually healed up enough he found that his swing caused enormous pain.

He found zenolink looking for a way to play without pain, and is now back to playing in single figures.

My personal experience has been that my first round of PST exercises totally changed how golf affected my back and hips. From pain after every range session I went to totally pain free. Zen was able to show me through the test reports exactly what I was doing to my spine with my old movement patterns. Doing the drills has changed them.

When I am ready to get back into move golf and training consistently again I will get screened again and get new PST. Other priorities have meant that I have dropped them for a while now. But my friends noticed huge changes in my swing while I was doing them. And there is no doubt my shots were longer.

Zenolink does not fix your golf swing. It doesn’t claim to fix your golf swing. What it does is change the basic way your body creates speed. The reason they generally work through a coach is because you still need to learn good mechanics/physics. You still need a decent grip, a decent stance, and so on.

GN..a quick question about flatter lies…this allows for a higher hand level through impact because the body is furher away from the ball position than as at address?

It ain't over till it's over.

A flatter lie angle is needed when the hands are lower – or the heel will hit the ground at impact.

When the hands are high and further from the body a more upright lie angle is needed or the toe of the club will hit the ground at impact.

The main factor determining lie angle is hand position…others things also contribute but hand position is the main factor.

super… In earlier posts Brad mentions the shaft pointing to the belly button or centre of the body. With some people this will be an upright lie. I am assuming that Brad means returning the shaft to impact with the butt aimed at/or close to the belly button. I am a bit confused on this point in the context of flat.

yes fair point I guess….if the shaft is pointing at the belly button depending on the height of the person it could be flatter than standard or more upright than standard.

I see how your getting confused…I am too.

I think if you go from standard you can only think about the clubhead. If the toe is in the air at impact the clubhead needs to be flatter – I think that would mean the hands would be lower?

Because the ball is away from the body and we look at it from an inclined plane
If everyone here could swing a golf club at waist high (just like baseball) no one would come over the top or get steep into the ball…you would swing the bat around the body on a very level rotating axis

In golf – you WANT the same logic- but because the ball is on the ground- everybody wants to get out along that target line with their club- hence the steep move downward and the over the top move-

history proves this is not how it should be down- yet designers are making equipment upright trying to make you all come down the line and steep and clubfitters are telling you you need upright clubs and also lighter tempting you to throw the club out down the line way too early causing drama for the rest of impact and follow through.

The more around your body you swing the lower your hands come through and the shallower the approach….Fact
The lower your hands come through the less clubface rotation… Fact
The lower your hands come through the more turning of the body occurs… Fact
The lower you stay the more in tune you are with the ground and your grip on that ground….Fact
The better my grip with the ground the more I can rotate through…. Fact
The flatter my clubs are the less chance i will visually want to come over the top….Fact

Of course we still need to know how to swing correctly but the flatter setup is 100% giving you a chance as opposed to what you are hitting and buying

super… In earlier posts Brad mentions the shaft pointing to the belly button or centre of the body. With some people this will be an upright lie. I am assuming that Brad means returning the shaft to impact with the butt aimed at/or close to the belly button. I am a bit confused on this point in the context of flat.

It ain't over till it's over.

Not necessarily
We have knees and we can actually use them and have some flex and support.
Anyone ranging from 5 foot 6 to 6 foot 6 could logically play the same club set up…but it depends on what other swing parts they have in place to determine this.
I know who will try call bullshit on that but go watch George Archer swing the club on youtube…beautiful stuff….6 foot 5 and still swung flat and existed level and around with body rotation by using knee flex… Won the Masters in 67 was never injured ever by playing off flat lies and knee flex and played for ever on the Champions Tour.

Because the ball is away from the body and we look at it from an inclined plane
If everyone here could swing a golf club at waist high (just like baseball) no one would come over the top or get steep into the ball…you would swing the bat around the body on a very level rotating axis

In golf – you WANT the same logic- but because the ball is on the ground- everybody wants to get out along that target line with their club- hence the steep move downward and the over the top move-

history proves this is not how it should be down- yet designers are making equipment upright trying to make you all come down the line and steep and clubfitters are telling you you need upright clubs and also lighter tempting you to throw the club out down the line way too early causing drama for the rest of impact and follow through.

The more around your body you swing the lower your hands come through and the shallower the approach….Fact
The lower your hands come through the less clubface rotation… Fact
The lower your hands come through the more turning of the body occurs… Fact
The lower you stay the more in tune you are with the ground and your grip on that ground….Fact
The better my grip with the ground the more I can rotate through…. Fact
The flatter my clubs are the less chance i will visually want to come over the top….Fact

Of course we still need to know how to swing correctly but the flatter setup is 100% giving you a chance as opposed to what you are hitting and buying

That is history…times have changed, coaches have changed, clubs and club-fitters have changed. Over the top and steep isn’t a good move but it’s how many club golfers swing. 99% of them aren’t going to spend $1000+ on lessons and put the time in to get in better swing positions.

For those that think I do this stuff for rounding up business.. totally wrong

If you look back at when I was on here previously with Lag Golf Machine and my own threads… I was not teaching… I was still playing… I gave over 1500 posts out then because i wanted people to learn something that I was really beginning to understand again about the game and the swing
Up until that point I too had been hood winked by swing coaches and equipment companies. I was given way too much mis information because my body and mind was telling me something entirely different to what the ‘experts’ were trying to tell me to do with my swing or with my equipment.
Like everyone else I assumed it was correct because it was ‘technology’ and the ‘new thing’....well I learned that it was based on bullshit when I sat back and stopped playing and tried to work out what went wrong on the course.
Zen gets all upset…I am not bagging him individually. I am stating that computerized data and launch monitors and all this other stuff are not real time golf. We hit with their data goals in mind and the number we try get a print out becomes more important than playing the shot.

When we play on course we have different lies, different winds, different grasses, doglegs, hard pan, soft ground, wet ground, different intensity levels, one day our body feels weak, one day we feel strong, our hands are sweaty, our heart is beating fast one day, the next day I feel calm….you can’t teach that stuff on a computer with a data printout
That’s why I say I believe in what I say and what I do… because I went through all that stuff at Major Championship level golf and realize the instances and differences and what affects things.
THAT’S why I say if you don’t know, you don’t know…. but people will say anything to have you believe they do know… but it’s an entirely different ball game.
And that’s what annoys me for people to try dismiss my calls as crap and say I don’t know anything. I have more real golf experience to draw on than anyone I can see out of this entire forum ( unless Tiger Woods or someone is lurking behind a hidden avatar we don’t know about)
And it isn’t money motivated like you know who….mine is genuinely trying to pass on my info to the Aussie golf public because I miss Australia and want to stay in touch there somehow.
I never lead anyone to my site… Danz (who I don’t know) posted the topic….. I never mentioned online lessons and no-one has bought one, I don’t care about that….all I have been trying to do is give something back…... and I got blown out the water here almost 2 years for asking very obvious questions…which we won’t go into and receiving very piss poor answers.
I never looked at this site for well over a year. Came back and saw self promotion of Zenolink going on, which I thought was illegal at iseek, I asked a few questions in that thread and that’s all I’ve ever done until the past week.
If you like my stuff buy Danz a beer for getting me back here… if you don’t.. well don’t read it…. it’s free info from a tour winner so if you don’t want to learn something you must have better options out there.

I don’t want to argue with Zen but everytime I post something he cries foul and brings up Greg Norman Pete Sampras and we ‘must know what we are talking about’ because we’ve been in the business for 20 years…. I was in the business for 25 years myself.. in the real thick of it…. so just go to your thread and chill over there and let me do my thing instead of trying to shove it up me at every mention of something you base your data on and you want to prove me wrong.

are you Bradley Hughes?

Good to see you playing again if it is.

That is history…times have changed, coaches have changed, clubs and club-fitters have changed. Over the top and steep isn't a good move but it's how many club golfers swing. 99% of them aren't going to spend $1000+ on lessons and put the time in to get in better swing positions.

Times haven’t changed… the physics of hitting a golf ball hasn’t changed
Coaching has changed yes…for the worse in many regards because you don’t even have to be a real golfer to teach.
Club fitters have changed because they build clubs to mask a flaw and then drag everyone’s swing into a bigger state of dis repute.
I believe growing up at my club where I spent every breathing minute of every day and played with everyone and saw hundreds of people swing a club every day, even the hackers and such….over the top and steep wasn’t anywhere as severe as we see today…. WHY?
The equipment

The more you cover something an neglect it, the worse it becomes.

Not the best example by here goes:
I used to know everyone’s phone number right off the top of my head. Now with cell phones and everyone programmed in I can’t even remember my own number.
Dumbing things down, dumbs you down….

You dumb your swing dumb by trying to mask it’s flaws, you dumb it down even more…

People won’t spend $1000 on lessons, but they’ll happily spend over $1000 for clubs???

That is history…times have changed, coaches have changed, clubs and club-fitters have changed. Over the top and steep isn't a good move but it's how many club golfers swing. 99% of them aren't going to spend $1000+ on lessons and put the time in to get in better swing positions.

Times haven't changed… the physics of hitting a golf ball hasn't changed
Coaching has changed yes…for the worse in many regards because you don't even have to be a real golfer to teach.
Club fitters have changed because they build clubs to mask a flaw and then drag everyone's swing into a bigger state of dis repute.
I believe growing up at my club where I spent every breathing minute of every day and played with everyone and saw hundreds of people swing a club every day, even the hackers and such….over the top and steep wasn't anywhere as severe as we see today…. WHY?
The equipment

The more you cover something an neglect it, the worse it becomes.

Not the best example by here goes:
I used to know everyone's phone number right off the top of my head. Now with cell phones and everyone programmed in I can't even remember my own number.
Dumbing things down, dumbs you down….

You dumb your swing dumb by trying to mask it's flaws, you dumb it down even more…

People won't spend $1000 on lessons, but they'll happily spend over $1000 for clubs???

Yes without a doubt they will happily spend over $1000 on clubs and $000000 on lessons don’t ask me why.

There is talk between club-fitters about whether to fit the clubs to the players current swing or fit the clubs to how you want them to swing. If they aren’t getting lessons then obviously a club-fitter is going to fit them to their current swing or they won’t be happy with the $1000 to $3000 they spent on a new set of clubs.

History is history (gone, done, in the past)...it still might be the best way to swing but its not going to happen. Just like being able to remember everyone’s phone number – it’s not going to happen, its how the world is. You sound extremely bitter. You aren’t going to change the world, or golf. Especially on this forum where you just seem to get crankier and crankier.

People won't spend $1000 on lessons, but they'll happily spend over $1000 for clubs???

That’s a really good point. I was looking at new irons at the same time I ended up with some credit with my club pro. One lesson, some basic changes to setup (torso more upright,hands lower and more relaxed) and some practise and I’m striking the ball (and scoring) better than ever. I think I’m a bit flatter through the ball now, but higher ball flight and more consistent shape. Enjoying my golf more and saved $800. All the fancy equipment,science and jargon may be of some use, but probably isn’t going to help much if you set up wrong and don’t practice the right things. Had my lesson alongside my ten yo daughter, great to see it was kept simple, all about balance and swinging down through the ball.

Thanks for your input and passion GN, just try to keep happy with it!

Brad,
I call a truce with you and leave you be, and I totally agree about flat swings, The flatter the better, I do get what you mean with equipment in ways and I get annoyed when people use equipment to fix swing faults. But if you want to make a change in the game and an impact do what I do is find fitters who believe in flat swings and will work on the golfers swing and then fit them correctly.
The Club manufacturers have to much power we can’t beat them. But what we can do is start finding great fitters and point people in their direction. They will help you find the right shafts and swing weight the true lie angle for your swing once it’s grooved right.

I totally agree with ball flight monitors to be used for fitting and in a net. For starters ball flight monitors aren’t as accurate as well believe. They use a simple equation distance over time equals speed. That’s how there work out club head speed. The only down side is they can’t factor in ball compression which is critical to what shaft someone needs. They may have high club head speed but don’t have good ball compression to get the ball air born and travel at a nice trajectory, The other downside is they then can’t work the ball. They don’t have good enough ball compression or spin rate to move the ball or shape it.
I use stiff for this reason, so I have higher spin rate and can work my driver and shape my irons. I may loss distance but I will sacrifice this to so i can work the ball around the course.

Brad I have to work with PGA members all the time and it’s tough, When we train some one’s engine their swings flatten out naturally, I get accused of flatten their swing etc, I don’t it’s what happens when the body moves efficiently the arms and club moves around the axis of the spine not up or down. When coaches start using our product, I have to be gentle and lead them to water to realise the swing are flat and circular not up and down.

not cranky super dooper….just trying to point out that listening to the wrong sources giving people the wrong information isn’t doing anyone any favours.
there’s a tonne of of wrongs being sent out into the golfing world especially since internet forums and golf channel and things came along.
Just trying to give out correct info based on my experiences at top level golf , coaching seen, my own feels, the equipment changes and what I have seen also from playing pro-ams and the like with all standards of golfers. I even spent time doing a few indoor lessons at a golf store before I got my club job and watched the club fitting episode and it really opened my eyes to what was going on.
You’re entitled to your opinion. if you don’t want to even consider my thoughts it’s no skin off my back.

Just recently one of my students wanted a new set of clubs. I told him to go to a store and choose ones he liked the look and feel of. He chose a Callaway model. I myself don’t care for them but it’s his money so all I asked of him was when it came the time to order them to hand them a piece of paper with the specs I wanted them to be set up at. Because we have a swing in mind down the road…... so if he was going to improve and not fall back into bad habits we had to get his clubs in order to fit the future and not how he was swinging exactly at that time….. of course the fitter called me and wanted to know why this guy needed standard length instead of 1/2 inch over, and set at 2 flat instead of 2 degree up and 6.0 shafts instead of 5.0 and at least D3 swingweight…...
I told them he has knees he can use to get lower at impact and that the flatter lies we need to stop him from swinging too much down the target line and a stiffer shaft to help keep the shaft more in tune for the throwaway he was pressuring into the shaft.
needless to say he is happy with the clubs, they are helping him swing better and he is hitting the ball quite nicely, even though he still has some work to do…. they are not blades and wouldn’t have been my first choice, but so long as they are set up correctly to help him swing closer to the ideals I can live with that

My job as a teacher is to give my students the best information possible to head towards improvement. I have to base it on what I have seen and what I have found out to be true and what I can do. If I can’t do it to show and prove my point then my effort is pointless. I will never just say something without a purpose or to provide a quick fix for a week. Improvement is all about long term possibilities.
So I believe what we use to swing is just as important as what we are trying to do with the swing.
When we see people constantly searching and tinkering and changing clubs and not getting any better, then maybe it;s time they thought outside the box a little instead of following the trodden path of what they have been hearing the past 10 years.
Again what I am saying is nothing new. The best ever did it, but somehow it’s been lost in the mix because of too much information overload.

there was a great quote about Seve, who unfortunately passed away a few days ago, in a tribute to him….it sort of summed up some of my thoughts.
“Sadly for all who love golf as the art form it is meant to be and not the science it has become, we may never see the likes of a Seve ever again”
Instead of the word Seve, you called insert Trevino, Hogan, Norman, Ball striker in that spot ….

not cranky super dooper….just trying to point out that listening to the wrong sources giving people the wrong information isn't doing anyone any favours.
there's a tonne of of wrongs being sent out into the golfing world especially since internet forums and golf channel and things came along.
Just trying to give out correct info based on my experiences at top level golf , coaching seen, my own feels, the equipment changes and what I have seen also from playing pro-ams and the like with all standards of golfers. I even spent time doing a few indoor lessons at a golf store before I got my club job and watched the club fitting episode and it really opened my eyes to what was going on.
You're entitled to your opinion. if you don't want to even consider my thoughts it's no skin off my back.

Just recently one of my students wanted a new set of clubs. I told him to go to a store and choose ones he liked the look and feel of. He chose a Callaway model. I myself don't care for them but it's his money so all I asked of him was when it came the time to order them to hand them a piece of paper with the specs I wanted them to be set up at. Because we have a swing in mind down the road…… so if he was going to improve and not fall back into bad habits we had to get his clubs in order to fit the future and not how he was swinging exactly at that time….. of course the fitter called me and wanted to know why this guy needed standard length instead of 1/2 inch over, and set at 2 flat instead of 2 degree up and 6.0 shafts instead of 5.0 and at least D3 swingweight……
I told them he has knees he can use to get lower at impact and that the flatter lies we need to stop him from swinging too much down the target line and a stiffer shaft to help keep the shaft more in tune for the throwaway he was pressuring into the shaft.
needless to say he is happy with the clubs, they are helping him swing better and he is hitting the ball quite nicely, even though he still has some work to do…. they are not blades and wouldn't have been my first choice, but so long as they are set up correctly to help him swing closer to the ideals I can live with that

I understand your advice and believe it is correct. I just don’t think its worth going on about as it won’t change…manufacturers are going to keep going in the direction they want.

As I said above some club-fitters believe that clubs should be fit to how a player should be swinging as you have said above. But many fit to their current swing as it will help improve their game immediately. One thing that really pisses me off is how strong iron lofts are getting. Since when should a wedge be 45 degrees?

As I said I understand where your coming and believe you are correct. I don’t think its going to change anytime soon – and as Zenstb said manufacturers have alot of control whether we like it or not.

So we can then take this as some friendly advice and remember we are ultimately in charge of how are clubs are set up…not someone who meets us for 5 mins and watches us hit a few shots and think they know exactly what we need to play with based on a few hits with a bit of tape on the sole and a board
All things go in cycles…. when the word finally makes it into the right person’s hands with the right voice to voice it… things will alter again back to a better/closer standard
It only takes a Tiger Woods or high profile guy to preach this stuff and the sheep will stand in line and go baaahhhh like society tends to do.

baaahhhh

;)

OK, just gave up an hour of my life to read the thread and benefitted. I skipped the naysayer rubbish. Have a pretty steep swing plane, so think I am pretty f**ked. What’s the next step, get the lie angles on my clubs fitted to my swing or fit my swing to the lie angles?

If your a Carlton supporter like I am then you should know the answer

Any tips for my swing Hughesy?

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

If you wear those boots at Longreef you will get bashed up.

Please Luftwaffle – as you know, eagles soar and sheep follow, and if anyone does any bashing it’ll be me, and it’ll be the entire linksy golf course at Long Reef who’ll be on the receiving end.

I shall just watch.

Brad,
Really like this thread and believe that you are spot on.
Went and hit a bucket of balls today and remembered what you said about shafts being too long these days, so I gripped down on my irons and really began to flush them, also really thinking about getting my AP2’s bent 2 degrees flatter.

If your a Carlton supporter like I am then you should know the answer

Okay fair call. As you know we are going to win 2 of the next 5. Get the clubs changed is my guess?

Still frame pics of an iseeker who put his swing on instruction forum
he said he used pretty standard clubs and hit hooks or pushes with the driver

Very good swing.. lots of good stuff going on…had a nice transition with some vertical weight drop for support…kept club behind him quite nicely and then at impact everything straightened up lifted and flew away from his body making timing a huge issue for an otherwise decent swing

If your brain and body are smart enough to go and raise everything at impact then they are smart enough to come in lower tighter and more packed and preserve more consistent alignments by using flatter equipment

If your a Carlton supporter like I am then you should know the answer

Okay fair call. As you know we are going to win 2 of the next 5. Get the clubs changed is my guess?

Easily the most overrated golfer on this forum.

I can sell you a lovely set of flat Mizuno MP 67 blades PG for 3 times the price?

There has been talk of this uplifting at impact and straightening of the arms as a mechanical breakdown of the lower body…let’s think about this in another way.

If I had a pair of shoes and both were left footed shoes and I put them on.. one on my left foot and one on my right foot and walked around for a week… would my body have a mechanical breakdown?....yes… because i am adjusting my whole movement to suit the equipment I am wearing on my feet….so is it my body that screwed up or was it the fact that I had a left shoe on my right foot that made my body adjust to the circumstances?

OR

I had 3 items…all measured 40 inches in length…all measured 4 inches in circumference…and for all intent and purposes had a club head attached to the end at the same lie of 58 degrees shaft angle.
I made a regular golf swing with each item.

Item 1 was made of dowel or balsawood
Item 2 was made of pine wood
Item 3 was made of stainless steel

Which item would I be so inclined to use more bodywork to move.?
Which would I use more hands and arms to slap with?
Which would come down steeper?
Which would throw my hands and arms off my body or lift up?
Which item would I be so inclined to use more ground force to move?
Which item would fall behind me easier and have to be rotated thru the swing on more of an arc radius with the entire bodily functions trying to tandem together to help?
easy answer…...
So was my iseek golf lesson example poor body movement or kinetic issues or poor equipment that lead to this happening?

If I break my arm and don’t use it it deteriorates.
If I tied one arm behind my back and totally used the other arm for every activity the tied arms ability to function would negate.

Do we see boxers punch balloons or speed balls?
Do we see weightlifters lift dumb bells or feathers?

If you are using inapt equipment for the purpose of playing proper golf and swinging along the correct protocols your swing will deteriorate and your body function capabilities will deteriorate.

The old Chicken or egg theory…..remember just because it’s new and hailed as the best doesn’t necessarily mean it is doing you any favours. It may help for the first month but swing a light upright club for too long the muscular deterioration will set in and your game will go south because your body will deteriorate to meet the equipment in your hands
This is what club manufacturers do. They prey on the ego of the player and ‘distance’.... so they make stuff much stronger in loft, longer in length and lighter in weight in an effort to gain distance and give the golfer the WOW factor…this however deteriorates your swing because something light and long becomes much easier to swing back at the ball with the hands and arms and not the correct body sequence.
Then because you get to chopping down the line and raising your hands up they give you upright clubs… that helps for about 5 mins before the entire cycle is a mess and people get lost and lose all faith in their swing and their game… they look for any tip or any club that provides a fix….that lasts a short time and the cycle gets repeated again and again and off they go to golf oblivion blaming everything except the real poison they drank in the first place.

Thanks Brad, very informative. How does one get around this with driver then?

thoroughly enjoying this thread

another question here, particularly on the driver issue

what is your thought on hitting “up” on the driver GN? in my mind (from personal experience!), what he’s doing in those pics you put up is (aside from what you’ve mentioned) lifting in order to hit the ball which is teed some 3 inches off the deck

i have had a lot of success lately teeing the ball right down low and using my normal swing to hit it, and being that it’s further forward, i hit it flush, not “upwards”

not only does this eliminate sky balls but stops me getting all out of sorts trying to change the predominant “hit down on the ball” to a whacky “hit UP on the ball”. i’ve been driving superbly since doing this, and i notice a lot of the pros also seem to have the ball lower as well, even our resident pga pro likes it low and regularly even takes driver off the deck

interested to hear your thoughts on this stuff

If we talk about low point being out in front of the ball and ideally we want to collect ball and then divot after initial contact…..then WHY…. would they make a club with the sweetspot up high and tell us to tee the ball high and swing upwards on it so we can actually hit the sweetspot?

Talk about making things more difficult…so we have 10-13 clubs we want to hit down on but then the most important club in the bag we are told to hit up on!!!! ????
Chalk another one up to the scientific minds who design equipment in the wrong manner with distance orientated minds totally disregarding shot workability, accuracy , consistency of strike and similarity of swing

Thanks Brad, very informative. How does one get around this with driver then?

see ingy response below…. tee it lower….that’s about the best option we have to try and keep our swing consistent thru the bag unless you use a lower profile head which would be older models.
Older models aren’t quite as hot off the clubface with the ‘new plastic ’ balls they make, so that option is a trade off if you still want to hit the ball as far as you do now.

In the same way light, upright equipment shouldn’t be used by everyone with a handicap; godaddy ‘website tonight’ should not be used by anyone with an opinion

Why Not? seems a good choice to me

2 birds with the one stone ;)

thought that may have been the case, most guys i play with have worked out that fable as well. i had a coach tell me once, “we hit up by lifting the left shoulder”.... logical, but ruins the rest of my swing

my titleist driver is relatively thin compared to those old “super deep” style TM ones anyway, perhaps the manufacturing is heading back in the other direction now? who knows

Talk about making things more difficult…so we have 10-13 clubs we want to hit down on but then the most important club in the bag we are told to hit up on!!!! ????

Couldn’t agree more, never could figure out this one or the whole sweep and hit down, i thought every swing should be the same….

Why Not? seems a good choice to me

You’re leveraging a tool that makes the complex apparently simpler and makes the particular task more accessible to a wider audience while actually cheapening the craft and somewhat masking a lack of technique. Can’t see the irony at all?

danica patrick has never registered a domain in her life! However i don’t think that would stop anyone having a good time with her…

You obviously must do websites for a living and think mine sucks. I am proud of it. I did it all by myself. I am not about using the best or latest, I am about the info I provide. That was my goal not how good or bad it looked to people such as yourself or if I hurt their feelings by using GoDaddy and website tonight. Like how dare he use MacGregor clubs when Mizuno are so much better… opinions are like a..holes…everyone has one.
It’s not about the website domain name or bandwidth supplier it’s about the info I provide on there.
I honestly don’t know what you are getting at otherwise unless next up you will hit me to retool my website under your guidance and I have to pay you handsomely for it.
Your posts makes zero sense to discussing the golf swing which is what we are doing here
As for Danica Patrick….Do you think Arnold Palmer ever used half the products he advertised for? ..it’s inconsequential to product marketing whether people use a product or not, they only have to convince people they do and then get paid for doing so… that’s how all that sponsor/endorsement/marketing works

Look if you are going to sit there and knock out your diatribes against companies that market technology/products that make a particular activity ‘dumbed down’ and more accessible to the masses on a platform marketed to do just that then that’s fine; i’m probably the only person that’s going to even come close to pointing out the irony in that so you’ll be hassle free in a second. You’re website is great, lots of nice videos and stuff and it must have taken ages to highlight every second word in a different color.

I’m pretty sure the OP referenced your site and the equipment section so i feel i’m on topic here, if not on a bit of a tangent. and fwiw i have nothing to do with websites but i’m sure you’d like to charge me to learn how to hit some heavy, small headed clubs properly?

Thanks for the marketing 101. I used to avoid purchasing mcdonalds in fear of losing pigment, my hair turning bright red and developing elephantiasis of the feet.

I made my website in stages:
First off I did some personal stuff because most websites I had seen where very basic and had little personal information. They mainly consisted of advertising for their sponsors and their upcoming schedule of events. Not much substance.
So I set about trying to make mine a bit more personal so if someone did find me on the internet they would actually find out about me as a person.
Then I added the swing thought pages an entire year later. I thought well why not highlight my main concerns with teaching, equipment or anything I saw fit to that had something to do with the evolution of a golf swing. I based it on my knowledge and experiences as a player going through the past 25 years and from my own teaching of people for a year and the results and insights that also brought to me.
I highlighted certain phrases in color to show these were important pieces to the puzzle. If you read those and look at the pictures and don’t disregard the equipment talk then dissect it all….it pretty much explains everything you need to physically know about the swing. It’s not in codes nor have I left anything out. It is all there.

So for 3000 to say I will charge him to give him the secrets on how to hit heavy small headed clubs isn’t true. If he wants the tuition then he can pay for it. If he doesn’t he doesn’t. I don’t see myself holding a gun to anyone’s head to come have a lesson. Again I never even started this thread and no-one knew I was even on iseek again.
Last time I looked people were paying money to try and learn how to hit the large headed lightweight frying pans and perimeter weighted shovels…so that’s a mute point
The difference is .
If I had 2 students both on 18 handicap and both came for lessons at the same time. And I started teaching them the swing thoughts from go to wo…..but one used flatter, heavier equipment and the other used the regular light and upright gear…. there would be no comparison in the improvement range even though I taught them the same stuff. The first guy with the flatter heavier clubs would improve far greater and hold himself in good stead for more improvement long term also because the true swing protocols would be easier to reach and keep than the other guy.

I have already outlaid the secrets and the paths to improvement by showing what the great strikers did compared to what the poorer ones tend to do. The great ball strikers worked it out based on the equipment they used, all void of video cameras and coaching and laser machines.
If you know what to look for you can do it much easily than you assume you can…but you will have a hard time doing it with the wrong setup of your gear.

There was an interesting moment for me today. One of my new students (has had only one lesson so far) bought a new set of clubs.
Company brand is unimportant but he ordered them as standard lies and lofts.
He brought them into me to look at for approval still wrapped in their plastic in the box. He asked if I could check them out to see how would suit his swing.
I could immediately see what was going on when I looked at them, so I went out back and put them on my loft lie machine to show him what was going on.

Lie angles were: PW 63.. 9i 63..8i 63.. 7i 63.. 6i 63.. 5i 63.. 4i 62.. 3i 62

Lie angles are meant to progressively alter to flatter the longer the club because of length, normally by one degree per club so your PW could be 63 and your 3 iron would be set at 56…or thereabouts….but here we are with my guy receiving an entire set of 3-PW all set up at almost the same lie angles so his 3 iron is 6 degrees more upright than it technically should be. he wasn’t fitted for the clubs he just ordered a standard set.
So for him to get his 3 iron to bottom out for a correct strike he has to raise his hands at impact- messing his swing up in the process

This is exactly the kind of stuff I am talking about….having a set of clubs made by a high end company that come thru at totally useless specs to hit because of poor product control or just plain ignorance…. with scant regard for the poor guy who buys them and hopes to improve his game

You obviously must do websites for a living and think mine sucks. I am proud of it. I did it all by myself. I am not about using the best or latest, I am about the info I provide.

How would you feel if a hacker off 28 said to you…. “You obviously think my swing sucks. But I am proud of it. I learned it all myself and I don’t need lessons” ?

Some might think Furyk’s swing sucks cause it doesn’t look pretty, but because everything that needs to there doing the right things at the right times, how is it wrong??
Same as the website, the information is important and it is all there in the right spots, how is that wrong?

If the 28 doesn’t want to imporve they won’t take lessons
If a website doesn’t want any bells or whistles, why should it?

Thumbs up bumpunrun…just like your avatar

My website has no morals or brain or want for improvement .. It’s an 18 handicap and happy to be there…I could do flash intros and the like but it’s the scratch handicap information not the layout that is the ingredient.
I still really don’t know the ‘irony’ of my website unless it was being knocked for not being as techy as a R11 ..
I came back here to talk and discuss my golf thoughts…not explain myself about why my website is plain or too colourful in the eyes of some…..

dude is on here giving us free advice and people are taking the piss out of his website? FFS

Agreed ingy, I don’t understand people on this website, someone volunteers some info and they get chastised…if you’re not interested don’t read the post or have the decency to politely disagree and move on.

P.s webiste is fine, if you take the time to read the content (which is that matters) it is very original and insightful, much more so than some of the butthead posts on here by some

Agreed ingy, I don’t understand people on this website, someone volunteers some info and they get chastised…if you’re not interested don’t read the post or have the decency to politely disagree and move on.

P.s webiste is fine, if you take the time to read the content (which is that matters) it is very original and insightful, much more so than some of the posts on here by some

Im not having a go at the website per se! (i’ve actually burned my retinas with most of it’s 90’s webmasterish styled content and much admire BH’s career). I’m having a go at the tools used to produce the website; in the same way the equipment rant has a crack at the tools most people are using to hit adequate golf shots these days.

What i’m saying is that similar issues to those brad talks about regarding golf equipment are happening in at least 1 other industry, and i found it ever so slightly amusing that while extremely sensitive to the usability issues in his own turf, remains blissfully unaware of any potential negative usability issues (for example the site is inaccessible to a visitor who might require the assistance of a screen reader) in leveraging a ‘dumbed down’ tool to get his job done.

Just a light-hearted observation is all. no need for anyone to take offence… but jesus how hard is it do drag an abstract thought out of people’s brains on this site. danz had a crack though!

FWIW I got you 3000, people get too sensitive, you’re not having a go, just drawing a comparison, the irony is clear, doesn’t effect BH’s beliefs.

danz asked a little question. That is all. Let’s not get carried away here.

Brad,
What’s important to you belief, or helping people and providing the truth.
Even if someone has their hands lows or your model golfer you believe in, If example they are 2 flat and you give them 3 or 4 they will still slice the ball regardless. Do you think you are leading people up a garden path?
People should get fitted to their true lie, a good fitter or coach will fix the persons swing first and then fit them accordingly or they slowly adjust their lie as the players mechanics improve.
If people buy off the shelf well they have to expect to not get the right gear. But the serious golfer or club golfer they realise and are aware you need to be fitted properly.
A fitter/coach can order what ever components needs to get the clubs built best for that golfer. Not every one needs heavy and not everyone needs super flat either.
The stock standard is 56* for a 3 iron, but every one knows the clubs off the rack lies are out etc ask any local pro he is aware and that’s why they don’t like golf stores selling production sets.

Another question you want some to have low hands etc so they need flat, but what’s if so one is really long in the legs there true lie angle is going to be a bit more up right than a short guy or short legs. What’s if someone has short arms how are they suppose to get their arms down low below the navel or around their knees.Would it be better to fit them to a true lie angle than super flat?
Also would it be best to find the right swing weight which is right for the player which works best for them, You can’t say everyone needs heavy, that’s untrue not every one needs heavy either.

If the club is too heavy it adds an external force to the system, what this means is the club is to heavy dynamically they can’t accelerate their arms and release the club properly,the arms slow down and then the club being to heavy accelerates past their arms and hands, causing break downs or a scoop. Heavy can destroy a good swing as well.
So the right weight would be best for the golfer?
I’m not being a prick hear brad, it’s about the truth and helping people based on the truth no what our beliefs other wise we are just as bad as golf channel or manufacturers, selling people on our beliefs and not the truth.

Yes he is leveraging dumbed down tools, 3000, but I’m sure if you asked Brad if he’d rather see someone who’s never played golf before hire clubs to have a hit in his company golf day, or not play at all unless they’re heavy and flattened, he’s going to say, “have a great day out there!”

I doubt his site would have existed if he didn’t do it himself.

He gets his message across, with personality. His visitors who need a screen reader probably can’t see the ball well enough to hit it anyway.

Zen
This is what nobody seems to get.
I don’t care how my students are swinging the club now…. I look at them long term. I see how far they have to go and then set clubs up accordingly for the future to give them the greatest improvement along the true golf swing principles…it’s not about the now.
That’s what clubfitters don’t get. And rightly so. They don’t care about a long term goal for the person… they care about selling them clubs right there on the spot.
I have better intentions than that and you’d be very surprised. You say people will still slice…. doesn’t happen with how I teach.
If you don’t understand the golf swing is all about OPPOSING FORCES…and setting people up to utilize those forces.then you don’t understand the benefits or the true swing protocols..
That’s why I believe in what I show people and what I teach…and my results with my students speak for themselves,
It’s about the vision for the future not the current state of events.
I wouldn’t just be barking on about this if I didn’t know or have evidence to back it up.

There was an article I read once and kept because it showed some great insight. It wasn’t about golf. It was about tennis, but right up there along the same lines.

ATP players who had never even held a wooden tennis racquet were given one to try and out and compare the differences between their large light racquets they use now.
Here are some of the quotes.

“If I played with a racquet like this I would definitely have more touch. I couldn’t rely on sheer power. I would have more feel and would have to rely more on spin and feel”

“I tried a drop shot and it was unbelievable. I knew exactly where the ball was going to go. You could feel the hit all the way through to your hand from the wooden head”

“You would have to have much better technique to use this wooden racquet. The technology of today really shows you have flaws in your game”

This is all in tune with practicing with golf clubs that are going to give you this same kind of feedback because you can then go back to your ‘techno’ stuff and be even better because you are enhancing your capabilities by bringing feel and touch and true technique back into play
Nowhere have I said people have to not use today’s clubs… all I have ever stated is they would need them set up correctly to make them worthwhile and that practicing with harder equipment to hit gets your brain and body better feel related intentions and leads you closer to the correct swing principles and keeps up muscle tone and brain feedback

your PW could be 63 and your 3 iron would be set at 56…or thereabouts….but here we are with my guy receiving an entire set of 3-PW all set up at almost the same lie angles so his 3 iron is 6 degrees more upright than it technically should be.

Ok so i have PW at 60 so my 9 iron should be 59 and so on??

From when and where do “standard” lies come from Hugo?

When did standardisation occur and what were standard lies based on originally?

Also, what is the weight difference between a 5 iron from 1975 and a 5 iron from 2011?

Thanks, as ever your thoughts are interesting.

your PW could be 63 and your 3 iron would be set at 56…or thereabouts….but here we are with my guy receiving an entire set of 3-PW all set up at almost the same lie angles so his 3 iron is 6 degrees more upright than it technically should be.

Ok so i have PW at 60 so my 9 iron should be 59 and so on??

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

I have my clubs 1 degree flatter throughout so what you say is correct
You could however keep your wedges and 9 iron the same lie angle IF they are the same length..once a club gets longer in length it should get flatter

From when and where do “standard” lies come from Hugo?

When did standardisation occur and what were standard lies based on originally?

Also, what is the weight difference between a 5 iron from 1975 and a 5 iron from 2011?

Thanks, as ever your thoughts are interesting.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Standard lies have changed over the years. I base MY standard off when I was growing up. That’s the standard I knew which would work along the lines I mention 62PW 61 9i 60 8i
The ‘industry standard’ has increased over the years to where most PW would be closer to 64 and so on down. So today’s standard is 2 more upright than what I knew or base mine off.
I like to keep my own known lies in mind and not what they try and tell me is standard…I think that’s a good logic…so today’s standard is say 60 with a 6 iron….. so that is 2 up from ‘my standard’ belief from growing up…yet the shafts are about one inch longer today also so that makes the club even more upright and in real lie because the longer the club the more we have to raise to bottom it out… so today’s 6 iron is in affect 3-4 degrees more upright than what I believe it should be based on the extended length and the new lie mentality to allow the club to be swung on a shallow path and help eliminate face roll by using too much hand action.

Overall weight is important in a club not just the swingweight reading we hear about…. Older clubs had longer hosels which gave them more headweight to feel and swing… They had more mass right behind the ball and not spread around the outside of the club. So solid shots felt really solid.. mishits on the toe were recognized and not hidden behind perimeter weighting, so we were getting feedback of our off center shots and also our flushers.
Today’s clubs have less weight behind the ball and more to the sides…today’s clubs have shorter hosels for overall less head weight and cavities in the back for even less weight…so while the swingweight balance numbers of D2 or D3 or whatever we can measure them at may come close to representing the older equipment, the overall weight of the club is down, so it really affects the way you swing, because even a few ounces whilst not sounding much, really make the club feel lighter and they become easier to throw with the arms and hands and not with the body included in the process.

I have my irons set up at 2 degrees flat from ‘my standard’ which would in reality be 5 or 6 flatter than what the industry tells us standard is
If you have seen the photo of Hogan’s 1 iron on my website you will see it is 51 degrees… the loft of his 1 iron would be equivalent to today’s 3 iron loft and length….so he pretty much has a 3 iron set at 51 degrees lie angle. Yet todays’s 3 irons are set at what?... 59??
So he was using 8 degrees flatter than what they put in our hands today… there was a reason he did this,, flatter, shallower approach so he could rotate and not slap

your PW could be 63 and your 3 iron would be set at 56…or thereabouts….but here we are with my guy receiving an entire set of 3-PW all set up at almost the same lie angles so his 3 iron is 6 degrees more upright than it technically should be.

Ok so i have PW at 60 so my 9 iron should be 59 and so on??

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

I have my clubs 1 degree flatter throughout so what you say is correct
You could however keep your wedges and 9 iron the same lie angle IF they are the same length..once a club gets longer in length it should get flatter

Ok sweet, Loft and lie machine here i come!!

The major reason people slice the ball is because they bring the club steeply on the downswing on a steep downswing plane and they come into the ball with an open face and hold on through the shot.

Golf channel and other avenues tell them their fix is to roll their hands over at impact to compensate….bbbzzzz…..wrong answer
Now they are coming in with a slicer’s route and a hookers release, so the ball goes all over the place.
Equipment companies and club fitters tell them they are steep and across the line so they thrust more upright clubs into their hands to try match a club to their swing and this only makes matters worse because now they are going to come down even more steeply into impact and try compensate for the hit with their hands to the nth degree. to visually match that upright club to the strike

Slicers bring the club down with their hands and arms void of any forearm rotation...so they have to hold on through the shot to try hit it.

Slicers do their damage on the way down and into impact
Hookers do their damage mainly post impact

If you understand the logic of forearm rotation into the strike right into the back of the ball and why flatter lies help achieve this and then how flatter entry helps produce better torso rotation on the other side of impact then welcome to better golf.
Like I said it’s all about opposing forces and it ain’t over when the ball is hit.

quick update, my blades arrived yesterday so i snuck off early from work and hit a large bucket

the smaller heads really force you to concentrate, found myself taking twice as long as normal between shots which in itself seemed to improve the ball striking

the lack of offset on the blades felt way different, had to move the ball back in my stance a ball width or so for every iron compared to my GI set, and it still seemed to give a strong draw in that position

lost a little distance but not as much as i thought i would, but looking down on the super thin top line is worth it, they look unreal at address

could most DEFINATELY feel when one didn’t come off properly, you can feel every single thing with blades, whether it was towards the toe or heel etc

overall, very positive, can see how hitting these things on the regular will improve ball striking with the appropriate swing mechanics, the sweet spot and head is so much smaller and requires way more concentration on making a good swing etc, keen to see how things go after another couple of months, almost want to game them straight away, don’t think i’ll be able to look down on my other shovels again…

must confess, there was a single shank in there towards the end when i got to the 3 iron, haha, pretty intimidating looking down at the thing, looked like a postage stamp

GN great insights, what is your interpretation of the grip.. be it stronger or weaker in this equation.?
My coach has me working toward a weaker grip. but I feel my strong grip helps me remove my hands from having too much influence and I tend to hit it better with a consistent draw with a stronger grip .. hard to explain but I feel like it helps me rotate through the ball better .. thanks again for contributing im loving reading it.

GN great insights, what is your interpretation of the grip.. be it stronger or weaker in this equation.?
My coach has me working toward a weaker grip. but I feel my strong grip helps me remove my hands from having too much influence and I tend to hit it better with a consistent draw with a stronger grip .. hard to explain but I feel like it helps me rotate through the ball better .. thanks again for contributing im loving reading it.

“the woods are full of long drivers”

^ Same.

Mines not a massively strong grip but certainly not as neutral as what my coach would like (probably two and half to three kncukles). When I try to go neutral I tend to not hit the ball as crisp or as far.

I’d be interested to hear what GN has to say about this.

I have seen far too many weird and wonderful grips make money to really say there is one set way you should abide by to grip the club.
the grip has a lot to do with how your arms just hang naturally from your body…if your forearms hang a certain way you need to grip the club in a manner that matches…
I look more at someone’s forearm’s and make sure they aren’t twisted away from their neutral natural position…. if your forearms are all twisted at address when you swing they will return to how they naturally are made to hang from your body so the clubface will move and rotate around with this twisting.
Grip is also determined by a person’s strength, hand size, a person’s amount of forearm rotation or body rotation and swing path
I teach people what they are meant to do into and thru impact and they almost to a man automatically alter their grip to suit the feel…not by me telling them how to do it or saying give me one knuckle or three knuckles on the hand.
If someone tries to change your grip in the first lesson or even the second lesson …run…..I have changed only 4 people’s grips in 2 years of teaching because it was an absolute must as they weren’t altering it themselves to suit the manner in which we were trying to get them to swing so it became a hinderance. But I had their swing protocols in place before i did it, so they didn’t feel like they were in unchartered waters by doing so..
I believe we need to really monitor a person’s path, rotation and speed before you can mess with the grip much at all

thanks for that. This was certainly not attempted in the first or second lesson. appreciate the input.

GN would you care to share what was in your bag the last time you played Coolum ?

GN would you care to share what was in your bag the last time you played Coolum ?

the greatest game ever played

I used a newer Taylor Made tri metal driver with a heavy shaft
12 year old 200 series Taylor Made 13 & 17 loft woods that sat flatter
Scratch irons I designed myself with heavy gradual swing weights from D3 up to E0 in the wedges and flat lie angles.. approx 5 flat
I used a 1948 Hogan MacGregor persimmon for practice…. heavy and very flat to keep my swing in tune

Hey Hugo, I know both you and JOhn Erickson like to promote the “heavy” and “flat” clubs.

What do you think of the idea that OEMs should sell clubs that clearly state:

1) Swing Weight and club dead weight
2) Lie Angle
3) Loft

I’m staying at a nice hotel here in Scotland this weekend and I picked up one of the golf magazines they had lying around. I’ll post more on it when I’ve had a good read at it but the thing that caught my attention was the cover story about how the tour players set their clubs up.

For example, Lee Westwood’s driver says 9 degrees of loft but it actually has ten and a half. Westwood also plays his ping’s 2 degrees upright, as does Gary Woodland.

I will have a good read of the article and post other interesting info but do you not agree that if the world number 1 isn’t ‘flat’ that the term horses for courses really does apply?

If the 3 best ever ball strikers by public opinion Hogan, Trevino and Moe Norman all used flat to very flat clubs….were they good because they were good, and practiced OR did their equipment setup help them gain an edge.
We won’t see another truly great ball striker ever again because of everything I have talked about in this thread….clubs too light, clubs too upright, heads with too little mass, mishits hidden for no feedback and balls that are too hard for your average player to compress and the ball doesn’t move around much to allow shaping and control.

Today’s guy have little option but to play more upright clubs because that’s what the manufacturers have been putting in their hands for years now. The term upright and industry standard has altered also by numbers. Standard has been altered 2 degrees more upright…so 2 degrees upright today is 4 degrees upright of the old reading from the 80’s.
Westwood plays upright irons because he is stiff legged and straight right armed at impact….he can time that move most of the time, others can’t…but everyone does that today also because of instruction based on guys trying to guess what the greats did and totally missing the mark and the equipment….. stiff legged, straight right arm thrust, steep vertical shoulders….the pros can get away with making such a crazy move because they can practice all day long and have worked out a way to time the move, but very few time that move consistently, hence we don’t see flush ball striking very often… we see some good scoring but it’s like yesterday’s TPC… there was something ridiculous going on with almost 30 holed pitches, chips, bunker shots. They do it with magic and get to putt on perfect billiard table greens every week, so they can make everything with a good stroke and confidence…
David Toms is in front after 36 holes with a technically sound swing bringing his shaft plane at address back the same at impact with knee flex, right arm bend, shoulders opening up through the hit for rotation and no hand roll….1st in fairways hit and 3rd in Greens In reg…. that’s how golf should be played. That’s how you lead or win, not by having to have 24 putts every day.

Going by the fact the magazine says Westwood and Woodland use 2 up….what’s 2 degrees upright? ....2 degrees upright of what?...and what’s the true lie angle reading number…that’s the important number
If I said my putt missed by 2 inches….is that 2 inches, 6 inches or a foot? Based on what my eyes perceive it as, so lie angles are the same…depends on what they call standard.

Should we believe everything we hear on TV or read in a magazine or newspaper? .... I know I don’t

The good players today are leaving a lot on the table by being told what they should do or should use…..they have adjusted to it but we don’t really hold any one in ball striking reverence today…...there are untold benefits to what I have discussed….one day someone will understand it….this person will be just as athletic, just as strong etc as today/s golfers… he will putt and chip as well, but he will use the correct equipment setup , maybe because of someone like myself and Lag talking about the pitfalls, and he will blow everyone away… because he will be long, straight, have distance control and timing EVERY day….and he won’t need swing guru’s conditioning coaches, shrinks …an entourage….. he can just do it and be put all together because he trained himself properly from the word go…

well that was kind of my point hugo, if the lie angles and loft were stated on irons then no one would be talking about flat or upright, people would just have a certain lie angle.

You talk about everything changing by 2 degrees since the 80s, is this something you suspect or is there evidence of this?

When you spoke of people’s grips. You said that they are individual, i still don’t understand then why you would advise the same set up lie wise for a 5 foot 2 man and a 6 foot 4 man, surely it is arm length and the distance from wrist to floor that dictates what the correct lie angle should be, no?

I don’t see why you would think the world’s number one player has incorrect equipment, its not like he has no say at all in what he plays.

Also the players you mentioned earlier are renowned for their work ethics. Moe would practice till his hands bled, hogan practically invented practice. You give the impression that until metal woods came along no one ever ground their game on the practice fairway.

I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with people having flat lies, i just think that people should experiment and see what works for them.

Are you convinced that ‘the next hogan’ will emerge if all juniors had their lies flattened? I think there have been some pretty special talents even with the growth of frying pan drivers as you like to call them. Rory, manny, ryo just to name 3 under 25s!

Brad,
This is a fact Tiger Woods would not use Nike club until they built him the clubs he wanted. It took the Nike club maker 2 and bit years to build clubs tiger was happy with before he would switch to Nike. He took tiger 3 drivers and tiger said I like this driver 2 grams heavier, he said Tiger they weight the same, Tiger said your scales must be out. The guy weight them again and Tiger was right. I’ll see if I can dig up the article the club maker telling the story about it. Westwood and others get the clubs built to what they want and their Specs. This is the truth and fact.

I can’t believe your bagging these tour players, sorry but the truth is they’d smoke you on any given week.
You go on about about old and new gear, but when you used old gear you never won on US tour and with new gear you never won either, bit of a stale mate really.
Your making out as if you and lag have all the answers and ever one else is a crap coach, you both haven’t produced no one yet. I’ve seen some of lag students and after 2 years they still can’t bust eggs.
Some of them came to me because they were hitting big hooks, their patterns horrified me, There going well now, I sorted them out and they are striking the ball pure.
I played with Lag and he beat me by 1 shot, both of use using the old gear, I hadn’t played in months, was tired travelling the US working with tour players, I use clubs I never used before, since I was a kid. Lag’s ball striking was OK, but I wouldn’t rate it to be US tour level that’s for sure.
I have data on Lag’s golf swing and I can assure you it’s no where as good as the players you are bagging. I can show you why Lag never made it to play in a major or on the US tour.
Sorry Brad, I can not stand the fact you are bagging coaches and you think you have the answers, you bag players which you could never beat. Golf is about scoring that’s it. You put a number on the board and no one cares how you did it.
Norman and many others went through the era of clubs changing and still stayed on top. All the Senior tour players are coping just fine as well.

Possibly the rudest most aggressive post I have seen aimed at a Golf Proffessional. You should screen yourself for Respect Zen, see if there’s any there.

This thread has officially jumped the shark.

Zen it’s you’re not your. Get it right.

GN
These players (close to the lead) all have clubs with flat lies and swing around rather than upright – McDowell, Stricker, Glover, Dufner, Quiros.
Johnatan Bird is another that stands out. They all play the ball close to the body…much closer than ordinary golfers.

The internet and golf forums…..
I gave my advice….if you don’t like it , it;’s no skin off my nose…if you want to try it try it…if you don’t believe it then don’t believe it…. razaar knows a bit about it but like I said the equipment will never allow a Hogan or Trevino ball striker to come along again….fact…not fiction
I have bagged no-one….all I say is these guys are leaving a LOT of golfing ability on the table…. because of mis information and a load of science beliefs not based on what the best strikers did…..the greats left their roadmap to success, but no-one follows it…. I hope to change that.

Scott….you love to come down on everyone like a tonne of bricks because you have a digital printout…(that no-one else can read)... I know the facts surrounding Lag’s numbers at his test… he had no warm up, straight out of bed …..for a reason ….to see how his movements were with no warm up early in the morning when his body would be at it’s worst…...
you originally told me his numbers were pretty good (should I dig out the e-mail??) and now you say his numbers suck
You are all over the place like a mad woman;s shit with things you say and quote and it gets under everyone’s skin.
At least i am consistent with my views. You have zero idea how i teach and what I teach and limited idea about equipment if you think upright lie angles are more advisable than flat lie angles (you use flat yourself…why?)....
this is the most tiresome golf forum ever trying to give thoughts and then try please you with rebuttals all the time.

Have fun boys…..do your PST’s and learn how your body is meant to move….it won;t make an iota of difference because you will still all be stiff legged, straight right arm throwers with clubface roll…. for every reason I have stated on this thread.

Styles go watch George Archer….he is 6 foot 5…he has knees with movable joints…he can actually bend.them and use his pressures to advantage….one of the truly greats swings for a tall man.

I don’t suspect the lie angles…I know as shown below

Hogan Apex 2 irons specs from early 80’s (my starting era at high level golf) compared to Taylor made Burner irons of today
All specs shown as standard company lofts as per documentation resources I have;

Hogan 3 iron 23 loft 57.5 lie TM Burner 3 iron 19 loft 60.75 lie
Hogan 4 iron 26.5 loft 58.5 lie Burner 4 iron 21 loft 61.5 lie
Hogan 5 iron 30 loft 59.5 lie Burner 5 iron 24 loft 62 lie
Hogan 6 iron 33.5 loft 60.5 lie Burner 6 iron 27 loft 62.5 lie

There it is for all to see….. Taylor Made or clubfitter says well Sir you need two degrees upright so now your 5 iron is 64 lie and 4 1/2 degrees more upright than 25 years ago … I don’t make this stuff up.

They also deloft clubs to make people think they are better than they are (as shown above)..... they make the 3 iron strong to obsolete 2 irons and 1 irons and then sell hybrids….$$$...and make the short irons and wedges so strong you now have to buy a gap wedge to fit in between your sand wedge and screw it, why not get a lob wedge too….and chunk and skull all those around also because you now have 4 wedges to pick from and don’t know how any of them really work or the bounce factor and the weight is too light because they are now designed as full swing clubs instead of trouble clubs for sand and chipping…........ most people can’t hit one wedge what on earth do they want 4 of them for?

How many people have ever been to a club fitter and been told .. “Well Mr Johnson your swing is far too flat for these clubs I suggest you use clubs 3 degrees flatter than what we are using here”.... let’s get that 5 iron lie angle down to around 58 degrees…...
lets see a show of hands…..
I will say maybe 1 out of every 100….if that…....the other 99 are all told standard or upright….today’s industry standard is technically upright and today’s industry upright is really xtra upright especially when you consider also that the shafts are now all one full inch longer than the 1980’s also making clubs even more upright than the lie reading because of their length.

The defense rests….

Brad, please stick around. Your perspective on the swing and the modern game is a breath of fresh air, which is really appreciated.

Brad,
This is a fact Tiger Woods would not use Nike club until they built him the clubs he wanted. It took the Nike club maker 2 and bit years to build clubs tiger was happy with before he would switch to Nike. He took tiger 3 drivers and tiger said I like this driver 2 grams heavier, he said Tiger they weight the same, Tiger said your scales must be out. The guy weight them again and Tiger was right. I'll see if I can dig up the article the club maker telling the story about it. Westwood and others get the clubs built to what they want and their Specs. This is the truth and fact.

I can't believe your bagging these tour players, sorry but the truth is they'd smoke you on any given week.
You go on about about old and new gear, but when you used old gear you never won on US tour and with new gear you never won either, bit of a stale mate really.
Your making out as if you and lag have all the answers and ever one else is a crap coach, you both haven't produced no one yet. I've seen some of lag students and after 2 years they still can't bust eggs.
Some of them came to me because they were hitting big hooks, their patterns horrified me, There going well now, I sorted them out and they are striking the ball pure.
I played with Lag and he beat me by 1 shot, both of use using the old gear, I hadn't played in months, was tired travelling the US working with tour players, I use clubs I never used before, since I was a kid. Lag's ball striking was OK, but I wouldn't rate it to be US tour level that's for sure.
I have data on Lag's golf swing and I can assure you it's no where as good as the players you are bagging. I can show you why Lag never made it to play in a major or on the US tour.
Sorry Brad, I can not stand the fact you are bagging coaches and you think you have the answers, you bag players which you could never beat. Golf is about scoring that's it. You put a number on the board and no one cares how you did it.
Norman and many others went through the era of clubs changing and still stayed on top. All the Senior tour players are coping just fine as well.

Good and correct post…I agree with you 100%

Brad,
This is a fact Tiger Woods would not use Nike club until they built him the clubs he wanted. It took the Nike club maker 2 and bit years to build clubs tiger was happy with before he would switch to Nike. He took tiger 3 drivers and tiger said I like this driver 2 grams heavier, he said Tiger they weight the same, Tiger said your scales must be out. The guy weight them again and Tiger was right. I'll see if I can dig up the article the club maker telling the story about it. Westwood and others get the clubs built to what they want and their Specs. This is the truth and fact.

I can't believe your bagging these tour players, sorry but the truth is they'd smoke you on any given week.
You go on about about old and new gear, but when you used old gear you never won on US tour and with new gear you never won either, bit of a stale mate really.
Your making out as if you and lag have all the answers and ever one else is a crap coach, you both haven't produced no one yet. I've seen some of lag students and after 2 years they still can't bust eggs.
Some of them came to me because they were hitting big hooks, their patterns horrified me, There going well now, I sorted them out and they are striking the ball pure.
I played with Lag and he beat me by 1 shot, both of use using the old gear, I hadn't played in months, was tired travelling the US working with tour players, I use clubs I never used before, since I was a kid. Lag's ball striking was OK, but I wouldn't rate it to be US tour level that's for sure.
I have data on Lag's golf swing and I can assure you it's no where as good as the players you are bagging. I can show you why Lag never made it to play in a major or on the US tour.
Sorry Brad, I can not stand the fact you are bagging coaches and you think you have the answers, you bag players which you could never beat. Golf is about scoring that's it. You put a number on the board and no one cares how you did it.
Norman and many others went through the era of clubs changing and still stayed on top. All the Senior tour players are coping just fine as well.

Zen
Shame on you,if you was any sort of man,you should appoligise to Brad.He was everything you wished you could be.

You go on about about old and new gear, but when you used old gear you never won on US tour and with new gear you never won either, bit of a stale mate really.

Never used old equipment on the PGA Tour….Would love to see all your gold jackets in your trophy case

Your making out as if you and lag have all the answers and ever one else is a crap coach, you both haven't produced no one yet. I've seen some of lag students and after 2 years they still can't bust eggs.

We have some good ideas… we haven’t produced anyone yet, but we will…..the training program we have to allow students to feel the swing and also use their own personal flair without tying them in knots is the best I have ever witnessed and I have seen it all Scott…. from Top 10 coaches, to Top 50 coaches, to club fitters and bio men and everything in between…. Do you honestly believe I walked around with my eyes shut for 25 years playing PGA golf?......at least we don’t hang our hat on a measurement we did of Nick Price back in 1995 and claim him to be one of our own when he was measured once and did none of zenolink work or if he did he already had won 3 Majors… you taught him nothing… I would love to get a tour player who struggles and build him into a beast of a player….but I get just as much enjoyment out of making a hack start to feel the swing and point his game in the right direction… I don’t need to name drop every person like you want to do as your clientele even if they stepped on your plate once…. they were already world class…what your did for them is debatable as they were good anyhow

Some of them came to me because they were hitting big hooks, their patterns horrified me, There going well now, I sorted them out and they are striking the ball pure.

One of them went to you …Styles…...after he did Module 1 of training….ONE part…. if you don’t know opposing forces and what we try to achieve then you just don’t know….of course coming in from a flatter shallower plane he would hook the ball… because he had no clue what to do on the other side of impact….. you fixed nothing….you stale mated him back into being a down the line thrower who will still always now have misses in both directions

I played with Lag and he beat me by 1 shot,

I played with Tiger Woods in the 4th round of The Deustche Bank in 2005 and he beat me by 1 shot….lucky day for him I guess!!!! That one putt on the last pipped me… thought I had him…..as if you can rate yourself on one round….gimme a break

Lag's ball striking was OK, but I wouldn't rate it to be US tour level that's for sure.

Lag didn’t play golf for 15 years and plays about once a month or twice a month…. different priorities and desires…. no coat tails to ride, just good honest stuff

I have data on Lag's golf swing and I can assure you it's no where as good as the players you are bagging. I can show you why Lag never made it to play in a major or on the US tour.

He never made it to US Tour because he never ever went to US Tour school…. he played in Australia and Canada… played for the travel and the fun , not the money…entirely different train of thought and logic behind his golf.

Sorry Brad, I can not stand the fact you are bagging coaches and you think you have the answers, you bag players which you could never beat.

I haven’t bagged anyone. I say they are ALL leaving things on the table with their players because of weird swing ideas today like staying centered and S&T and the poor design of equipment. Nearly everyone comes in steep and straightens and rolls the club over…FACT… by all means try time it day in and day out but again I say…. we won’t see a ball striking machine again the way things are going.

Let’s see who I couldn’t beat….1993 Aust Masters I beat Norman, Senior, Price, Grady, baker Finch, Allenby
1998 Masters I beat OMeara, Wetswood, Karlsson, Allenby, Senior, Mark Brooks etc
1997 US Open I beat Nick price, Tiger Woods, Payne Stewart, Elkington, Singh, Nicklaus, Janzen, Greg Norman, etc etc
Looked for your name couldn’t find it there, so I probably beat you too.

Norman and many others went through the era of clubs changing and still stayed on top.

If you never saw him play with persimmon and the likes you don’t know what you are talking about. the Shark was a shadow of his former self when graphite and especially large lighter heads came into play in the mid to late 90’s

40 love

So Brad are you still playing any tournaments? Still remember that shot you hit into 18 at Huntingdale the second time you won. 3 iron I think.
Anyway what’s your take on adjustable drivers like the R11 or Titleist 910’s?

The internet and golf forums…..
I gave my advice….if you don't like it , it;'s no skin off my nose…if you want to try it try it…if you don't believe it then don't believe it…. razaar knows a bit about it but like I said the equipment will never allow a Hogan or Trevino ball striker to come along again….fact…not fiction
I have bagged no-one….all I say is these guys are leaving a LOT of golfing ability on the table…. because of mis information and a load of science beliefs not based on what the best strikers did…..the greats left their roadmap to success, but no-one follows it…. I hope to change that.

Scott….you love to come down on everyone like a tonne of bricks because you have a digital printout…(that no-one else can read)... I know the facts surrounding Lag's numbers at his test… he had no warm up, straight out of bed …..for a reason ….to see how his movements were with no warm up early in the morning when his body would be at it's worst……
you originally told me his numbers were pretty good (should I dig out the e-mail??) and now you say his numbers suck
You are all over the place like a mad woman;s shit with things you say and quote and it gets under everyone's skin.
At least i am consistent with my views. You have zero idea how i teach and what I teach and limited idea about equipment if you think upright lie angles are more advisable than flat lie angles (you use flat yourself…why?)....
this is the most tiresome golf forum ever trying to give thoughts and then try please you with rebuttals all the time.

Have fun boys…..do your PST's and learn how your body is meant to move….it won;t make an iota of difference because you will still all be stiff legged, straight right arm throwers with clubface roll…. for every reason I have stated on this thread.

Styles go watch George Archer….he is 6 foot 5…he has knees with movable joints…he can actually bend.them and use his pressures to advantage….one of the truly greats swings for a tall man.

I don't suspect the lie angles…I know as shown below

Hogan Apex 2 irons specs from early 80's (my starting era at high level golf) compared to Taylor made Burner irons of today
All specs shown as standard company lofts as per documentation resources I have;

Hogan 3 iron 23 loft 57.5 lie TM Burner 3 iron 19 loft 60.75 lie
Hogan 4 iron 26.5 loft 58.5 lie Burner 4 iron 21 loft 61.5 lie
Hogan 5 iron 30 loft 59.5 lie Burner 5 iron 24 loft 62 lie
Hogan 6 iron 33.5 loft 60.5 lie Burner 6 iron 27 loft 62.5 lie

There it is for all to see….. Taylor Made or clubfitter says well Sir you need two degrees upright so now your 5 iron is 64 lie and 4 1/2 degrees more upright than 25 years ago … I don't make this stuff up.

They also deloft clubs to make people think they are better than they are (as shown above)..... they make the 3 iron strong to obsolete 2 irons and 1 irons and then sell hybrids….$$$...and make the short irons and wedges so strong you now have to buy a gap wedge to fit in between your sand wedge and screw it, why not get a lob wedge too….and chunk and skull all those around also because you now have 4 wedges to pick from and don't know how any of them really work or the bounce factor and the weight is too light because they are now designed as full swing clubs instead of trouble clubs for sand and chipping……..... most people can't hit one wedge what on earth do they want 4 of them for?

How many people have ever been to a club fitter and been told .. “Well Mr Johnson your swing is far too flat for these clubs I suggest you use clubs 3 degrees flatter than what we are using here”…. let's get that 5 iron lie angle down to around 58 degrees……
lets see a show of hands…..
I will say maybe 1 out of every 100….if that…….the other 99 are all told standard or upright….today's industry standard is technically upright and today's industry upright is really xtra upright especially when you consider also that the shafts are now all one full inch longer than the 1980's also making clubs even more upright than the lie reading because of their length.

The defense rests….

Hugo,

I’ve asked a few questions that you have not answered yet so could you do that, rather than making statements about me to Zen and other people viewing this thread that really you have no business doing.

1) Why are grips individual but lie angles not?
2) If all juniors from now on used flatter lie clubs will the ‘next hogan’ emerge?
3) Do you value ball striking over scoring?
4) Do you think Rory McIlroy, Lee Westwood, Martin Kaymer and Ryo Ishikawa are poor ball strikers that use inferior equipment?

GN1965 you are clearly an angry and frustrated man. You won’t change the golfing world back to how it was in Hogan days, or whenever you think everyone suddenly changed for the worse.

There is no point going on and on and on about how everyone is wrong and you are right.

how about this, those of us who appreciate a successful touring pro sitting here giving us information and opinions for free, stay and communicate

all you wannabe’s pushing you’re own agenda’s who just want to argue go and get fucked

zen, start your own thread and keep your bullshit out of here, some of us like different opinions and can interact without being little bitches about it

hugo, stay around dude, appreciate your time and opinions

/\ Yeah, what he said.

couple more questions:

1) Should all players (in your opinion) use stock length shafts regardless of height?
2) Who (in your opinion) was the last ‘great’ ball striker?

One of them went to you …Styles……after he did Module 1 of training….ONE part…. if you don't know opposing forces and what we try to achieve then you just don't know….of course coming in from a flatter shallower plane he would hook the ball… because he had no clue what to do on the other side of impact….. you fixed nothing….you stale mated him back into being a down the line thrower who will still always now have misses in both directions

I really don’t appreciate this comment Bradley.

I have stayed silent about my experience working with Lag, I’d prefer if you stopped referencing me like this.

how about this, those of us who appreciate a successful touring pro sitting here giving us information and opinions for free, stay and communicate

all you wannabe's pushing you're own agenda's who just want to argue go and get fucked

zen, start your own thread and keep your bullshit out of here, some of us like different opinions and can interact without being little bitches about it

hugo, stay around dude, appreciate your time and opinions

I’ve got no problems listening to advice – like from RTL…but Brad goes over the top and gets angry at anyone who doesn’t think he’s beliefs are all mighty in the golf world.

how about this, those of us who appreciate a successful touring pro sitting here giving us information and opinions for free, stay and communicate

all you wannabe's pushing you're own agenda's who just want to argue go and get fucked

zen, start your own thread and keep your bullshit out of here, some of us like different opinions and can interact without being little bitches about it

hugo, stay around dude, appreciate your time and opinions

Well put

Can somebody please explain why on this forum as soon as somebody expresses a view that is different from those that are spun out here on a daily basis, some of which I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, people throw mud and large quantities at that.

One would of thought this was about on Brad Hughes views on golf as he sees it, not as others see it. Surely to god we are grown up enough by now to work out what will work for us as individuals and not be force feed the same old views every day.

Interesting case in point is this http://forums.iseekgolf.com... in the Ask Golf Guru section, reminded me of the debacle with Mike Clayton a while back.

We on this forum are lucky to have a few people who have been there and done what we all dream about being able to do. There views, their knowledge are something that we can all learn from. Each of us can ask questions and take away what we want to from the writings.

Zenstb you have a your own topic how about you fornicate and leave this one and let Hugo express his views. We can decide if what he states is true and correct, we are big peoples now and some of us might actually enjoy reading what Hugo has posted without the constant interruptions from yourself.

One of them went to you …Styles……after he did Module 1 of training….ONE part…. if you don't know opposing forces and what we try to achieve then you just don't know….of course coming in from a flatter shallower plane he would hook the ball… because he had no clue what to do on the other side of impact….. you fixed nothing….you stale mated him back into being a down the line thrower who will still always now have misses in both directions

I really don't appreciate this comment Bradley.

I have stayed silent about my experience working with Lag, I'd prefer if you stopped referencing me like this.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

I suppose the other question is though Styles. Is what is posted correct of fallacy???

The flat lie concept is new to me, but I can see a wealth of merit in it. One of the things about a simple, uncomplicated swing (where there is little deviation in plane on both sides of the ball) is the plane of the left forearm at the top of the backswing and the plane of the right forearm at the top of the follow-through is parallel to the club shaft at address. If anybody has doubts about this, I would ask them to use a ruler on any swing sequence of any player who has a classical swing…before jumping down my throat.
The question for me is – does the shaft angle set the forearm angle or is it the other way around. Brad may have an answer to this?????

One of them went to you …Styles……after he did Module 1 of training….ONE part…. if you don't know opposing forces and what we try to achieve then you just don't know….of course coming in from a flatter shallower plane he would hook the ball… because he had no clue what to do on the other side of impact….. you fixed nothing….you stale mated him back into being a down the line thrower who will still always now have misses in both directions

I really don't appreciate this comment Bradley.

I have stayed silent about my experience working with Lag, I'd prefer if you stopped referencing me like this.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

None of my business Styles and I understand your point entirely however just to stop any miss-understanding; your name was first mentioned on Page 4 of this thread by Zen.

Subsequently your case has been hinted at and used as exibit A by both sides of this arguement.

Like I said, none of my business but for the sake of fair play and clarity …......

And in the red corner..

One of them went to you …Styles……after he did Module 1 of training….ONE part…. if you don't know opposing forces and what we try to achieve then you just don't know….of course coming in from a flatter shallower plane he would hook the ball… because he had no clue what to do on the other side of impact….. you fixed nothing….you stale mated him back into being a down the line thrower who will still always now have misses in both directions

I really don't appreciate this comment Bradley.

I have stayed silent about my experience working with Lag, I'd prefer if you stopped referencing me like this.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

I suppose the other question is though Styles. Is what is posted correct of fallacy???

The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it right every time. Oh I wish…..

The current and TRUE WBT Champion. (Not.)

You can find that out if you read my blog.
This is Hugo’s thread, I am interested in his views on club lies and swing theory. I see no need to criticise me or my swing or who I choose to work with.

And in the red corner..

with fancy smancy techno stuff,

and in the blue corner with flat lies and heavy clubs,

each to their own, whatever works for whoever,

life, and golf is easier that way……....

The flat lie concept is new to me, but I can see a wealth of merit in it. One of the things about a simple, uncomplicated swing (where there is little deviation in plane on both sides of the ball) is the plane of the left forearm at the top of the backswing and the plane of the right forearm at the top of the follow-through is parallel to the club shaft at address. If anybody has doubts about this, I would ask them to use a ruler on any swing sequence of any player who has a classical swing…before jumping down my throat.
The question for me is – does the shaft angle set the forearm angle or is it the other way around. Brad may have an answer to this?????

It ain't over till it's over.

Great question Razaar. Exactly what I have been wondering.

2putts, I had noticed that but let it fly because I joined the discussion late.

I would prefer if neither of them used me as part of their arguments.

Cheers Styles, sounds like a fair request : )

The flat lie concept is new to me, but I can see a wealth of merit in it. One of the things about a simple, uncomplicated swing (where there is little deviation in plane on both sides of the ball) is the plane of the left forearm at the top of the backswing and the plane of the right forearm at the top of the follow-through is parallel to the club shaft at address. If anybody has doubts about this, I would ask them to use a ruler on any swing sequence of any player who has a classical swing…before jumping down my throat.
The question for me is – does the shaft angle set the forearm angle or is it the other way around. Brad may have an answer to this?????

It ain't over till it's over.

Great question Razaar. Exactly what I have been wondering.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Shoulder plane line has the most impact on where your left forearm plane will be if you just let your arms naturally follow your shoulder plane they should make two straight parallel lines IMO hogans good example

its part of TGM thinking, the flying wedges concept.

2putts, I had noticed that but let it fly because I joined the discussion late.

I would prefer if neither of them used me as part of their arguments.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

I think that is very fair. Problem is, it is generally sir Zen, or Bio or Scott whichever you choose to call him is first up in placing names on the board. A fair bit of chest beating going on between both sides. It would be nice if both sides could work out how their respective techniques can help each other rather than arguing that one is right and one is wrong.

I’m a mug as far as golf technique goes, I just love playing the game. (Badly mind you) But if Zenolink can help me find an inground swing pattern, then why can that not assist me with what Brad has to offer in what he is saying and vicky verka.

As for reading your blog. I have been an avid reader and sometime poster since you began it in 2007. Hope you get where you want to be and maybe, just maybe a combined use of what has been made available to you from Dart, Guru, Zen, Brad and others that you have used in the colder parts of the world will make it happen. As I have asked before (not of you of course) but why is it that a combination of thoughts, views, teachings etc can’t work together.. Why does it have to be one against the other???

Anyway end of rant and I am still enjoying your journey.

Any chance of a link to the blog?

Dear Mr Hughes,

I hear you loud and clear on most of your thoughts about hte golf swing and technology.

Can you list your top 10 “Worst swings saved by Technology on tour”

Who in your mind would not be able to play blades and have only won on tour because they are using a 460cc driver and game improvement irons? Anyone that you know that is only on tour because of technology and otherwise would never have made it?

Gold Aus has moved to a watered down slope system with adaptation of a best 10 of your last 20 and the proof is there that this system has meant more high handicappers winning more often. These high handicappers benefit most from technology. Mr Hughes, do you think these high handicappers are “cheating” the system or cheating themselves and their potential as players?

I don’t know of a personal blog, I was referring to the thread ‘Styles journey to scratch and beyond’ in Ask Golf Guru.

I’ve said my piece….I have told everyone what to look for…. how the best way to go about it is.

Read the thread again…..

Superduperman- angry?....I have to keep answering your question too for about the 3rd time…. how can giving my honest opinion be angry….. read it, use it or dismiss it… you don’t know me and have never met me. I don’t call you out on my assumptions about you but understand your type….

Zen- you called a truce and then can’t help yourself and come back on and say I can’t play golf, never could beat anyone, can’t teach and don’t know what I talk about…pretty big call that just makes you look ridiculous in the eyes of people who read this thread.

I never answered your Tiger Woods scenario about the weight of his clubs etc….Tiger was one of the longest drivers with steel shafts and a smaller head..and was remarkably straight at the same time…he used a King Cobra and then a Titleist 975…. when he switched to Nike he started to use a graphite shaft…the club is overall much lighter than what he previously used… it is also slightly longer and it has a bigger head….. he has never driven the ball remotely close to how he used to ever since… he stalls his shoulder into a vertical steep position at impact and throws his hands off his body to the right, and of course can rarely hit his driver on the course these days.

Sryles….Grips…. weak Hogan, weak Bill Rogers,
Strong…. Langer…...strong Couples
Lots more weak….much more strong….many neautral

I never brought you up…zen did….apparently he fixed you, even though he wasn’t the one that screened you and you have Alex as your coach

Razaar, flat lies promote a open forearm rotation in the downswing on a flatter plane. Upright lies promote a closing of the forearms on a steep shaft plane down . Flat lies allow your shoulders to be closed coming down and you then use your body to rotate the club through impact and beyond with minimal roll. Upright square the shoulders up early to the target line…so you have to stall your body (steep shoulders) and the flip your hands to try recreate the speed and turn again.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

Clayts got run off here… I have honestly had enough of this place too. like I mentioned early on…good luck Bowdo (RTL)

Once again we seem to have lost someone that could offer so much to those that wished to listen and learn. When are ego’s (nopun intended) going to take a back seat. I don’t give a flying fig who offers the information or how good or bad it is. It is up to me to decide whether I want to use it or not, not someone with an alternate view telling me what I should or should not listen to or adopt. Personally, if someone with the playing experience of Brad comes on here and offers up his thoughts, then that should be where it stays. If Uncle Zen has alternate view that is good, read about it in his thread. Keep the two separate and let the punters decide what they want to use and keep for future reference.

Zen, when you were on here as Bio, the same thing happened to you. You spat the dummy and moved on to follow what you have found. You chose to come back and bestow upon us what you had found. All good and some of it I can read and understand, a lot of it I can’t. What Brad had to say, I could understand and relate to and put it into practice as I did the other day with good results (for me anyway), now thanks to big heads and little penises, I like many others may not get the oppportunity to have his thoughts and ideas passed on.

Not trying to suggest that one is right or wrong. I liked what Brad was saying, guess I just won’t hear it anymore. But I’ll still get to hear about Zenolink. If I choose to read of course.

Hope you read this GN1965, take a deep breath and decide to stick around. There is value in what you have to offer, maybe to only a few, (I’d suggest not) but that is better than none.

its in the askgolfguru part of this site soups, “Styles Journey to scratch”, a long read if you are just starting now haha!

Davego, I agree with you completely, too often I find people take up a position of opposition and argue till they’re blue in the face, meantime the other person is doing the same.

I remember reading somewhere how everyone you meet has a lesson to teach you and if you do not learn the lesson it will just get repeated over and over again.

I have said to Scott that I don’t think that he and Hugo are miles apart in their thinking. Scott has said he uses flat lies himself. However because Scott believes (as I do) that all of us are put together differently and we should get fitted appropriately he and Hugo can’t find common ground.

I’m not sure but I think that because Hugo has this “everything new is bad” mantra or seems to give that impression, that regardless of whether zenolink works or not, because it involves computers it automatically goes into the “bad” pile.

I like to think that I am open minded and will listen to what I hear, try it and if it doesn’t fit in with my way of thinking then I’ll discard it. Sometimes I’ll go back to it again after it has had time in what Homer called ‘the incubator’. Other times I know its not for me. Richie3jack has a great attitude to this type of thing as well I think.

Can somebody please explain why on this forum as soon as somebody expresses a view that is different from those that are spun out here on a daily basis, some of which I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about, people throw mud and large quantities at that.

One would of thought this was about on Brad Hughes views on golf as he sees it, not as others see it. Surely to god we are grown up enough by now to work out what will work for us as individuals and not be force feed the same old views every day.

Interesting case in point is this http://forums.iseekgolf.com… in the Ask Golf Guru section, reminded me of the debacle with Mike Clayton a while back.

We on this forum are lucky to have a few people who have been there and done what we all dream about being able to do. There views, their knowledge are something that we can all learn from. Each of us can ask questions and take away what we want to from the writings.

Zenstb you have a your own topic how about you fornicate and leave this one and let Hugo express his views. We can decide if what he states is true and correct, we are big peoples now and some of us might actually enjoy reading what Hugo has posted without the constant interruptions from yourself.

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Peg has Bear_Vision

Great point.

What a shame. :/

What a shame. :/

Not to worry, he was on for a while and will be back, Ok boys back to attacking the beanbag with a broom.

I would love to hear his views on those questions I asked.

Hugo thanks for all your insight.. It’s been great!! Hope to see you around someday.. Janssen sends his regards and hurry up and mould some superstars would ya!!

Most important part of the golf swing.. The two feet past the strike.. Spot on!!! Stay well Hugo

Ps sounds like I’m breaking records on how long I have stayed on ISG!! Haha

You have to post a swing video at 1000 posts RTL, hope that won’t be awkward..

I would love to hear his views on those questions I asked.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

i answered them …but no one bothers to read anything

Ever play Longreef Brad ?

Hugo,

I've asked a few questions that you have not answered yet

1) Why are grips individual but lie angles not?
2) If all juniors from now on used flatter lie clubs will the ‘next hogan' emerge?
3) Do you value ball striking over scoring?
4) Do you think Rory McIlroy, Lee Westwood, Martin Kaymer and Ryo Ishikawa are poor ball strikers that use inferior equipment?

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

couple more questions:

1) Should all players (in your opinion) use stock length shafts regardless of height?
2) Who (in your opinion) was the last ‘great' ball striker?

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

These were the questions I was referring to.

Pick me pick me…. Can I have a crack at answering them..:)

Go for it.

Ok now I’m probably gonna be wrong so I’m just gonna stay away with this one and plus this Hugo thread

Soft : )

I have my own q&a stink :)))

Bowdo, I’d love to hear your answers, here or in your own thread.

Not sure if Hugo has quit for good or not.

Ok now I'm probably gonna be wrong so I'm just gonna stay away with this one and plus this Hugo thread

Come back here in your mid 40’s and make a long ranted post about how the game has gone to hell. Then the thread will be all yours. lol.

My big concern about where all this has lead is that Zen comes across as very presumptuous and arrogant by insisting that myself or Hogan or Player or Norman or Trevino had no idea what their body movements were doing. How would he know? How could he presume I don’t know what a kinetic link is or how to utilize it in the golf swing…... because I have no initials after my name such as a BSM or BSC or whatever he has?
I will post a pic sequence of myself from 1989….. it shows fundamental kinetic movements according to Zen’s and Chris Welch’s biomechanic postings and explanations on their website when talking of the ‘link’ and using lower body force sequencing to then create acceleration of the upper body unit later in the swing.

The sequence below shows ground pressures built up from the top of the swing….lowering and loading with minimal hip rotation keeping the club up until the acceleration process really kicks in near impact….. the big difference in my swing here that they and most don’t discuss and I do… is that I continue on with the process way up to finish by still having pivot acceleration that throws my hands up and club way up high to the finish…. this is where we see swing and clubface alignments being kept to the finish instead of just punching all our energy into impact only and then forgetting the rest…
by forgetting post impact swing and club alignments it all goes perfectly along with the dump and roll that most seem to believe is fine in today’s world, but I see this as a contributing factor to why we see some off the map shots at times even from the world’s best players… hence why I say these players are leaving a LOT on the table by swinging the way they do and using what they use.

Am I wrong?.... pics of Hogan & Norman in the same position near the finish who both went through the same downloading and body sequence of events and intentions of their swings..
If I can do it does that mean I don’t know what I am doing or how to do it?...of course not but I am lead to believe I don’t and being ridiculed as wrong because I never learned it in a classroom or a book or have a bachelor degree in something
that’s what rubs me the wrong way and gets frustrating….
I have never been injured playing golf so I must have been doing something correct if the entire thing is about injury prevention and getting the engine to function as preached.

My big concern about where all this has lead is that Zen comes across as very presumptuous and arrogant by insisting that myself or Hogan or Player or Norman or Trevino had no idea what their body movements were doing. How would he know? How could he presume I don't know what a kinetic link is or how to utilize it in the golf swing…… because I have no initials after my name such as a BSM or BSC or whatever he has?
I will post a pic sequence of myself from 1989….. it shows fundamental kinetic movements according to Zen's and Chris Welch's biomechanic postings and explanations on their website when talking of the ‘link' and using lower body force sequencing to then create acceleration of the upper body unit later in the swing.

The sequence below shows ground pressures built up from the top of the swing….lowering and loading with minimal hip rotation keeping the club up until the acceleration process really kicks in near impact….. the big difference in my swing here that they and most don't discuss and I do… is that I continue on with the process way up to finish by still having pivot acceleration that throws my hands up and club way up high to the finish…. this is where we see swing and clubface alignments being kept to the finish instead of just punching all our energy into impact only and then forgetting the rest…
by forgetting post impact swing and club alignments it all goes perfectly along with the dump and roll that most seem to believe is fine in today's world, but I see this as a contributing factor to why we see some off the map shots at times even from the world's best players… hence why I say these players are leaving a LOT on the table by swinging the way they do and using what they use.

Am I wrong?.... pics of Hogan & Norman in the same position near the finish who both went through the same downloading and body sequence of events and intentions of their swings..
If I can do it does that mean I don't know what I am doing or how to do it?...of course not but I am lead to believe I don't and being ridiculed as wrong because I never learned it in a classroom or a book or have a bachelor degree in something
that's what rubs me the wrong way and gets frustrating….
I have never been injured playing golf so I must have been doing something correct if the entire thing is about injury prevention and getting the engine to function as preached.

GN
WOW nice read, ty for your contribution.

To all the young guns that put videos on here with the hips rotating as much as the shoulders on the backswing, take a very good long hard look at Brads pic No. 2.

And what really pisses me off is people suggesting my game went to hell and I am living in the past…..
My life took on entirely different propositions that no one needs to know or care about that needed my full attention and I couldn’t do it by travelling and putting all my energy into golf 24/7… i phased myself out of playing because I had to and wanted to, not because I lost my ability
I had a career.. I did fine…i won tournaments traveled the world and lived a good life…. there is more to life than golf so all the naysayers can take a hike from the cheap seats
I have no desire to do the grind any more after 25 years.. I have an entirely different desire now in golf and if no-one wants to listen or wants to throw stones do it on your own time. Not when I am here giving free advice that will only assist people. You are all here to learn I would believe, so learn and use or don’t… but the BS is unwarranted

I will not be dragged into unwarranted discussions.
I see a good player and ask why aren’t they great…. I see a great player and wonder why they can hit a drive 50 yards off line. I understand it because I went through it via instruction and equipment.
If you don’t believe it don’t….but don’t say i am full of shit and a has been and living back in the prehistoric ages….it all has relevance today because the laws of hitting a golf ball haven’t changed since the day dot, but instruction and equipment has and it has an affect on things whether you want to believe it or not.

And what really pisses me off is people suggesting my game went to hell and I am living in the past…..
My life took on entirely different propositions that no one needs to know or care about that needed my full attention and I couldn't do it by travelling and putting all my energy into golf 24/7… i phased myself out of playing because I had to and wanted to, not because I lost my ability
I had a career.. I did fine…i won tournaments traveled the world and lived a good life…. there is more to life than golf so all the naysayers can take a hike from the cheap seats
I have no desire to do the grind any more after 25 years.. I have an entirely different desire now in golf and if no-one wants to listen or wants to throw stones do it on your own time. Not when I am here giving free advice that will only assist people. You are all here to learn I would believe, so learn and use or don't… but the BS is unwarranted

I will not be dragged into unwarranted discussions.
I see a good player and ask why aren't they great…. I see a great player and wonder why they can hit a drive 50 yards off line. I understand it because I went through it via instruction and equipment.
If you don't believe it don't….but don't say i am full of shit and a has been and living back in the prehistoric ages….it all has relevance today because the laws of hitting a golf ball haven't changed since the day dot, but instruction and equipment has and it has an affect on things whether you want to believe it or not.

Hence for those that wish to follow the progressions of Zenolink, remain in that thread and unless something constructive to add here rather than alternate views and criticism stay in that thread. For those that are interested in what Brad has to say, ditto… stay out of the Zenolink thread unless you have something constructive to say as well. We should all be able to then gain from the words of those in both rather than questioning others abilities. Pretty simple really.

Now Mr Hughes, continue if you would please.

And what really pisses me off is people suggesting my game went to hell and I am living in the past…..
My life took on entirely different propositions that no one needs to know or care about that needed my full attention and I couldn't do it by travelling and putting all my energy into golf 24/7… i phased myself out of playing because I had to and wanted to, not because I lost my ability
I had a career.. I did fine…i won tournaments traveled the world and lived a good life…. there is more to life than golf so all the naysayers can take a hike from the cheap seats
I have no desire to do the grind any more after 25 years.. I have an entirely different desire now in golf and if no-one wants to listen or wants to throw stones do it on your own time. Not when I am here giving free advice that will only assist people. You are all here to learn I would believe, so learn and use or don't… but the BS is unwarranted

I will not be dragged into unwarranted discussions.
I see a good player and ask why aren't they great…. I see a great player and wonder why they can hit a drive 50 yards off line. I understand it because I went through it via instruction and equipment.
If you don't believe it don't….but don't say i am full of shit and a has been and living back in the prehistoric ages….it all has relevance today because the laws of hitting a golf ball haven't changed since the day dot, but instruction and equipment has and it has an affect on things whether you want to believe it or not.

Hence for those that wish to follow the progressions of Zenolink, remain in that thread and unless something constructive to add here rather than alternate views and criticism stay in that thread. For those that are interested in what Brad has to say, ditto… stay out of the Zenolink thread unless you have something constructive to say as well. We should all be able to then gain from the words of those in both rather than questioning others abilities. Pretty simple really.

Now Mr Hughes, continue if you would please.

The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it right every time. Oh I wish…..

The current and TRUE WBT Champion. (Not.)

HERE,HERE I’ll 2nd that

What’s the difference between a smaller blade club with a smaller thinner sole and the mass directly behind the ball..and… a larger perimeter weighted club with the majority of the mass around the outside of the face and a huge sole?

the blade says “You can do this…there’s a sweetspot there.. swing me in shallow ….go ahead and find it, I’ll give you the necessary feedback and you can reap the rewards long term”

The perimeter weighted large head says. “You’re a hack, just swing away.. hit me anywhere on the face and fat me and let my big sole chunk something forward for you. Yes I may give you a half decent result for now but over time I will be your downfall”

That is passion, please hang around mate.
I go into golf stores occasionally and see these $600 Drivers with the huge heads that weigh nothing and think, this is bullshit.

What's the difference between a smaller blade club with a smaller thinner sole and the mass directly behind the ball..and… a larger perimeter weighted club with the majority of the mass around the outside of the face and a huge sole?

the blade says “You can do this…there's a sweetspot there.. swing me in shallow ….go ahead and find it, I'll give you the necessary feedback and you can reap the rewards long term”

The perimeter weighted large head says. “You're a hack, just swing away.. hit me anywhere on the face and fat me and let my big sole chunk something forward for you. Yes I may give you a half decent result for now but over time I will be your downfall”

So, are you saying in the long run it is better to use a club that is geared towards good mechanics rather than a GI club that is designed to mask them?

I’ve had this discussion with a mate and I think we came to the same conclusion, as long as it doesn’t drive you away from the game :)

i fully agree with brad’s sentiment now, makes sense to me ^

i was intending to practise with the blades and play my shovels, but i’ve ended up ditching my shovels altogether now. played comp with the blades on sunday having only hit them twice and loved it, was actually a lot of fun. actually found myself getting pretty aggressive with the ball striking on the home stretch and hitting a lot of great shots

a big plus which i hadn’t anticipated also was using them for the “touch” shots around the green and bump and runs etc. the ball is so much more predictable, it doesn’t explode of the face with blades, it just does what you tell it, and the accuracy and distance control is great

Hey Brad, without getting too much into your teaching protocol, are you into the idea of building a swing from the smaller shots, chip/pitch to teach impact alinements? Especially as you use the “harder” to hit sticks, would that help find the smaller sweet spot?

Also, it seems to me looking at most my hacker mates, myself included, that over swinging is a huge issue. Finding when that building swing need go back no further would seem important? How do you approach that? I know you say the back swing itself can be done many ways, and to many spots to I guess? Just interested about finding your individual top or finish of back swing.

Hope I make sense.

and then you buy them Waffle …...........

What's the difference between a smaller blade club with a smaller thinner sole and the mass directly behind the ball..and… a larger perimeter weighted club with the majority of the mass around the outside of the face and a huge sole?

the blade says “You can do this…there's a sweetspot there.. swing me in shallow ….go ahead and find it, I'll give you the necessary feedback and you can reap the rewards long term”

The perimeter weighted large head says. “You're a hack, just swing away.. hit me anywhere on the face and fat me and let my big sole chunk something forward for you. Yes I may give you a half decent result for now but over time I will be your downfall”

Brad
Am i right in saying that the perimiter weighted club forgives you for your bad swing, and a blade will punish you.
Therefor the blade will reward you for your good swing,and encourage you to swing well.
What i would like to know is how on earth a club fitter can fit a person to a set of sticks in an hour, i would think it should take a week at least,3 or 4 sessions

i fully agree with brad's sentiment now, makes sense to me ^

i was intending to practise with the blades and play my shovels, but i've ended up ditching my shovels altogether now. played comp with the blades on sunday having only hit them twice and loved it, was actually a lot of fun. actually found myself getting pretty aggressive with the ball striking on the home stretch and hitting a lot of great shots

a big plus which i hadn't anticipated also was using them for the “touch” shots around the green and bump and runs etc. the ball is so much more predictable, it doesn't explode of the face with blades, it just does what you tell it, and the accuracy and distance control is great

This is a great insightful post…
You learn to find the sweet spot more often. So you learn to swing better. You get better distance control because you are striking the ball better and more solid and can then alter your distances by the length of backswing or the speed of your rotation through the shot. Not by hitting it all over the face and hope you mishit it correctly enough to end up in the right vicinity.
Big difference in short ‘touch’ shots. You get predictability. Predictability leads to better precision…. you stack the cards in your favour and continually learn along the way and add much more repertoire to your game

Hey Brad, without getting too much into your teaching protocol, are you into the idea of building a swing from the smaller shots, chip/pitch to teach impact alinements? Especially as you use the “harder” to hit sticks, would that help find the smaller sweet spot?

Also, it seems to me looking at most my hacker mates, myself included, that over swinging is a huge issue. Finding when that building swing need go back no further would seem important? How do you approach that? I know you say the back swing itself can be done many ways, and to many spots to I guess? Just interested about finding your individual top or finish of back swing.

Hope I make sense.

2011 will be the best golfing year of my life.

SOP ASC. Boring to the state of serenity

WINNER of ISG Invitational Golf Classic, Rosebud, July 18, 2010

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

I normally start out students with a 6 iron. It is a club situated in the middle of the deck…. if we can get you swinging that well then the shorter shots with a shorter club should feel easy. If they have trouble getting it with the 6 iron then by all means I will head back to shorter clubs to gain some control. Longer clubs are tougher because as stated…long, light and mostly upright… they just beg people to create power with the hands because they can’t feel the head and use it to effect.So the longer clubs still take some work for most…. but everything I teach them gently points them in the direction that will help them later on with these longer clubs without forcing it down there throat immediately.

The shorter hand swing you have the less distance travelled so quite frankly less can go wrong. Hogan had a long backswing if you look at his clubhead (with his woods) BUT he had a short hand length on his backswing… you can still create torque and power with shorter hands going back so long as you have a shoulder turn. If your hands outdo your shoulder turn then you have thrown an extra factor in that you have to try salvage to get back in position, especially when your timing is off.
I would much rather a swing that is shorter as opposed to a long one (specifically talking hands here).... a shorter swing will also just about insist you get that club moving back down at transition by some lower half ground work to create the power and not by throwing the clubhead with your hands.

Hey Brad, without getting too much into your teaching protocol, are you into the idea of building a swing from the smaller shots, chip/pitch to teach impact alinements? Especially as you use the “harder” to hit sticks, would that help find the smaller sweet spot?

Also, it seems to me looking at most my hacker mates, myself included, that over swinging is a huge issue. Finding when that building swing need go back no further would seem important? How do you approach that? I know you say the back swing itself can be done many ways, and to many spots to I guess? Just interested about finding your individual top or finish of back swing.

Hope I make sense.

2011 will be the best golfing year of my life.

SOP ASC. Boring to the state of serenity

WINNER of ISG Invitational Golf Classic, Rosebud, July 18, 2010

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Stink
The sweet spot is the same size on all clubs, its the centre of gravity,the distribution of wieght on a perimter clubs helps for off centered shots,it acts like a shock absorber a counter balance.

So, are you saying in the long run it is better to use a club that is geared towards good mechanics rather than a GI club that is designed to mask them?

I've had this discussion with a mate and I think we came to the same conclusion, as long as it doesn't drive you away from the game :)

Game Improvement irons is a short term deal… hence all the stockpile of clubs that get sold a few months after being bought because the game improvement clubs cease to improve the game

Much rather SI…Swing Improvement clubs built around the fact of mass in the middle of the club behind the ball where we actually WANT to strike it

I believe the cost of golf now is more a contributing factor to people dropping from the game rather than their inability to improve.. it’s an expensive past time these days but there are ways around that and hopefully people can see I am offering a different avenue to improvement rather than just buying something that someone said may make you better. It’s great to hit the ball a long way with these light big headed clubs but if you can’t find it after you’ve hit…what have you gained?

There is lots of good equipment out there that people believe is no good, at a fraction of the cost that will do you more good than a $1000 set or irons and a $600 driver

Brad,
You can throw stones at me that’s fine, although don’t put words in my mouth about things I never said either. You show me where I said Hogan or Norman didn’t know how to move their body?
I never said you couldn’t play golf either.
You are going on about equipment, your never won on US tour with old gear or new gear is what I said. Valid point isn’t it ? about old verses new gear.
I tell you why I got furious, misleading people with false information for your own agenda. Westwood he dictates to club manufacturers what he wants and they build the clubs to his specs.
Your implying that he doesn’t get a choice is so untrue.
Anyone can get clubs built these days to what they want, Heavy light, what ever.
Answer me this Westwood very talented, he had clubs flatter so why couldn’t he get his swing flatter etc, why did he need 2 upright.?
The average person they originally start with standard lie so why don’t their swings flatten out and they get fitted and they then need 2 upright or what ever?
So is it really the equipment? Wouldn’t this be a swing mechanics fault or biomechanical break downs in their swing pattern?

Why not make it easier for someone learning the game or is average player have clubs easier to hit to learn the game a bit first and then step them into a blade later. If you give them a blade first up they can’t hit the ball and they will quit.

Brad what I didn’t like is your bagging club fitters and coaches who are mates and also clients, to say they don’t know what they are doing and can’t teach annoys me and you have all the answers.
A decent club fitter works on some one’s mechanics before they fit someone out and if they don’t find someone who does.
The other day, I was at a range and the club fitter said to the guy look in order to fit you right we need to work on your mechanics first, practice with club I made up for you and let’s book you in for lessons, with me or either another golf pro you are comfortable with.
Then lets get you fitted properly so the clubs work with your swing.

P.S The kinetic link how it works is called neuromechanics. It’s not something you can achieve consciously this is how your body creates speed automatically. Just like walking we walk with out thinking. To train someones engine you have to train their neuromechanics and this has absolutely nothing to do with swing plane mechanics which your confused between the difference biomechanics VS mechanics. I have never said I train swing mechanics, I only train engines and it’s up to the coach what mechanics they give the student. Fact is brad you can’t tell what any one’s engine is doing with out measuring it. Video or eye can’t measure body rotational speed, what the muscles are doing or ground forces. This is fact and any honest coach will confess to this.

Just to let you know….

GN1965, Zen – no matter what either of you say, and how well constructed your arguements are, you will NEVER convince the other that you are correct.

Hence for those that wish to follow the progressions of Zenolink, remain in that thread and unless something constructive to add here rather than alternate views and criticism stay in that thread. For those that are interested in what Brad has to say, ditto… stay out of the Zenolink thread unless you have something constructive to say as well. We should all be able to then gain from the words of those in both rather than questioning others abilities. Pretty simple really.

Zen,
I gather you didn’t read the above, so with all due respect return from whence you came so that those that wish to read Brad’s thoughts and not yours can do so without future petulance getting in the way.

can’t the mods ban this tool from commenting in and ruining this thread?

can't the mods ban this tool from commenting in and ruining this thread?

ditto,it seems some can do as they please,the rest of us have to toe the line.
think i will read more golf school articles,what is happening here is non productive thanks to zen

So, are you saying in the long run it is better to use a club that is geared towards good mechanics rather than a GI club that is designed to mask them?

I've had this discussion with a mate and I think we came to the same conclusion, as long as it doesn't drive you away from the game :)

Game Improvement irons is a short term deal… hence all the stockpile of clubs that get sold a few months after being bought because the game improvement clubs cease to improve the game

Much rather SI…Swing Improvement clubs built around the fact of mass in the middle of the club behind the ball where we actually WANT to strike it

I believe the cost of golf now is more a contributing factor to people dropping from the game rather than their inability to improve.. it's an expensive past time these days but there are ways around that and hopefully people can see I am offering a different avenue to improvement rather than just buying something that someone said may make you better. It's great to hit the ball a long way with these light big headed clubs but if you can't find it after you've hit…what have you gained?

There is lots of good equipment out there that people believe is no good, at a fraction of the cost that will do you more good than a $1000 set or irons and a $600 driver

So what clubs would be considered swing improvement clubs??

Just to let you know….

GN1965, Zen – no matter what either of you say, and how well constructed your arguements are, you will NEVER convince the other that you are correct.

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Old Swahili saying : When two elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.

Scott..you don’t get it

For everyone else surveying MY thread that are interested in why Westwood has to use upright clubs here’s your answer

He is an awesome player…I have never knocked him… just said he goes along with today’s instruction and equipment setup..which is making him leave a lot of potential on the table… he stiff legs it with steep shoulders and rolls the clubface over right after impact with his hands not his body turn… He can get away with this move because he is co-ordinated and can time that flip and has good pivot rotation to the finish… MOST DON’T

I use examples to show the pros can do this stuff…not always, which is why there are not many consistent ball strikers today…. but the pros like him get to practice all day every day to try time this move… your average Joe can’t time it and doesn’t have that luxury of day long practice sessions.

Scott you go off of a rant all the time typing and writing and never reading what I post…read the f’ing thing before you fly off your handle each time and then do what the guys above this post have written and asked

I tell you why I got furious, misleading people with false information for your own agenda.

this quote above might be your best effort yet….the three best ball strikers EVER (voted by public opinion) ALL based there games on the same information I mention here.

1) I don’t sell a product on here…we aren’t allowed to but you get free reign here for some reason

2)I teach my thoughts… i don’t have send my videos to a nerve center in New York to get a response of what my students need to work on…

3)I use my own experiences to come to my conclusions. I am not the middle man using another man’s company name and thoughts

4)I have come to the conclusion you have every desire to continue to fuck this thread up even when the forum members tell you to go away and stick to your own zeno thread…... so that brands you in a category that I don’t want to spell out

5) Waffle …I love you!!!

6) I will not ever give a lesson to any person on this site … I posted here for reasons of trying to help out some Aussies because I miss Australia. I will not accept one cent from anyone and do not drum up business like you do and will reject anyone here that contacts me for any advice. I have no agenda other than trying to give something back right here online with no ulterior motives.

7) most people can smell bullshit a mile away…. the more you have to butt in and interrupt and keep trying to say I am giving out poor information…the less credibility you enhance in your own product

8) Going to bed now….with a bit of luck I won’t wake up to anymore of your posts on this thread

So what clubs would be considered swing improvement clubs??

I’m guessin Blades or something pre 90’s due to having to find the sweet spot consistently to get the best out of your golf swing. All mishits will give you the desired feed back to tell you where you went wrong toward the toe or heel and allow you to make the desired corrections with practice, so hitting the sweet spot becomes a natural thing, not hit and miss.

If I got that wrong Brad, then I’m going to have to read this whole bloody thread again. (bypassing certain posts along the way though)

So what clubs would be considered swing improvement clubs??

I'm guessin Blades or something pre 90's due to having to find the sweet spot consistently to get the best out of your golf swing. All mishits will give you the desired feed back to tell you where you went wrong toward the toe or heel and allow you to make the desired corrections with practice, so hitting the sweet spot becomes a natural thing, not hit and miss.

If I got that wrong Brad, then I'm going to have to read this whole bloody thread again. (bypassing certain posts along the way though)

The key to success is to learn to do something right, then do it right every time. Oh I wish…..

The current and TRUE WBT Champion. (Not.)

Dave
His had enough i think i believe you have it correct.
Brad please stay on this site, dont take any notice of beaumont, he was selling peter crockers theories for years and we all know what radical rubbish he taught.
flavour of the month stuff anything for a dollar.

5) Waffle …I love you

GN, off to the AFL thread if that’s your go !!

Definitely would agree with the theory that the best “game improvement” irons are blades. My own experience was that after years of playing (infrequently) with approx 30yo blades I bought a set of 2nd hand Mizuno Intage GI irons from a workmate. They were great for a while but then the handicap started sliding backwards (from 20 out to 25). One of the worst problems – as ingy said above – was the lack of any clue how hot the ball was going to come off the face when close into the green.

After buying a set of Hogan Apex Plus’s on this site (ok not true blades but much closer than the Mizuno’s) I feel much more confident knowing what’s going to happen particularly with the short game. The h’cap has only come into 23 so far but the scores are usually within a few either side of it – I don’t seem to have as may of the blow out holes/rounds as before.

The most surprising thing for me was how they are not really that hard to hit – and they are easier to recover from when you get it wrong. If you stuff it up, the ball rolls 80m along the ground – it doesn’t (usually) fly 150m in a banana slice over the fence or 2 fairways across.

Thanks for your time and advice on here Brad I’m enjoying reading your thoughts on the game.

If you stuff it up, the ball rolls 80m along the ground – it doesn't (usually) fly 150m in a banana slice over the fence or 2 fairways across.

Ed Zachary. This is what I have found with the set of Titleist 735’s I am trying to get used to. Also not a true blade set like I used to use when I played a lot more often, but they do make me concentrate on the swing and staying down over the ball, coming in flat I presume. The set of RAC’s or Powerbilt MB’s that I have been using are a lot more forgiving of course, but my golf was not improving.

Admittedly I don’t play all that often at present, but that will change and when it does, I’d like to be hitting the ball a lot cleaner than I am at present. I believe what Brad has been administering here has helped me to put things into perspective of how I should be coming into the ball and I’m liking the results so far. Good shots feel tremendous coming of the face, bad are just plain ugly, but I am feeling the mishit and can work out, too close, too steep coming in etc, something I was guessing with using the RAC’s and Powerbilts.

To all the young guns that put videos on here with the hips rotating as much as the shoulders on the backswing, take a very good long hard look at Brads pic No. 2.

the greatest game ever played

zens got the screenings i have the cement lets bury the hatchet.
zen you were better selling peter crockers rubbish give us a break.
You swore by Crockers methods, ruined many a player, now your preaching the opposite of what you taught 6 years ago,make up your mind.
You ask for qualifications from people Brad has them.
All you are is a pga member, he was a player.
Somewhere you have never been.

Hugo, I realise you are passionate about your beliefs, I like that, I think Scott is just as passionate, as people have said, both of you should stick to your own threads and stop butting heads.

Anyway, I’m still waiting for answers on the questions I asked a couple of pages ago.

To all the young guns that put videos on here with the hips rotating as much as the shoulders on the backswing, take a very good long hard look at Brads pic No. 2.

the greatest game ever played

zens got the screenings i have the cement lets bury the hatchet.
zen you were better selling peter crockers rubbish give us a break.
You swore by Crockers methods, ruined many a player, now your preaching the opposite of what you taught 6 years ago,make up your mind.
You ask for qualifications from people Brad has them.
All you are is a pga member, he was a player.
Somewhere you have never been.

Bendoon,
You have me mixed up with the wrong person 8 years ago I was in and out of hospital fighting for my life from my accident. I spent the next 4 years in out of hospital learning to walk, talk etc and rebuilding my life. I was in no condition to be teaching, I never taught Peter Croker system and never have either.

To all the young guns that put videos on here with the hips rotating as much as the shoulders on the backswing, take a very good long hard look at Brads pic No. 2.

the greatest game ever played

zens got the screenings i have the cement lets bury the hatchet.
zen you were better selling peter crockers rubbish give us a break.
You swore by Crockers methods, ruined many a player, now your preaching the opposite of what you taught 6 years ago,make up your mind.
You ask for qualifications from people Brad has them.
All you are is a pga member, he was a player.
Somewhere you have never been.

Bendoon,
You have me mixed up with the wrong person 8 years ago I was in and out of hospital fighting for my life from my accident. I spent the next 4 years in out of hospital learning to walk, talk etc and rebuilding my life. I was in no condition to be teaching, I never taught Peter Croker system and never have either.

zen do u deny u have had no association with crocker and his teachings

To all the young guns that put videos on here with the hips rotating as much as the shoulders on the backswing, take a very good long hard look at Brads pic No. 2.

the greatest game ever played

zens got the screenings i have the cement lets bury the hatchet.
zen you were better selling peter crockers rubbish give us a break.
You swore by Crockers methods, ruined many a player, now your preaching the opposite of what you taught 6 years ago,make up your mind.
You ask for qualifications from people Brad has them.
All you are is a pga member, he was a player.
Somewhere you have never been.

Well you got the wrong guy…...

Players vs coaches has been done to death over years in here too. Best post was a photo of Renaldo and Fergusson.

Consider that over the years we have had supposed ‘players’ post in here only to be found that they were snotty nosed kids. Those with better stuff to offer have been around here for years having weathered plenty of storms.

Zen – please refrain from entries into this thread now that you have cleared up the who’s not who question.

To all the young guns that put videos on here with the hips rotating as much as the shoulders on the backswing, take a very good long hard look at Brads pic No. 2.

the greatest game ever played

zens got the screenings i have the cement lets bury the hatchet.
zen you were better selling peter crockers rubbish give us a break.
You swore by Crockers methods, ruined many a player, now your preaching the opposite of what you taught 6 years ago,make up your mind.
You ask for qualifications from people Brad has them.
All you are is a pga member, he was a player.
Somewhere you have never been.

Well you got the wrong guy……

Players vs coaches has been done to death over years in here too. Best post was a photo of Renaldo and Fergusson.

Consider that over the years we have had supposed ‘players' post in here only to be found that they were snotty nosed kids. Those with better stuff to offer have been around here for years having weathered plenty of storms.

Zen – please refrain from entries into this thread now that you have cleared up the who's not who question.

paul
I have been on this scene longer that you, i have known, these guys from the time they were kids, please dont tell me i am mistaken, chriss was a crocker deciple till he met paul hart who converted him to TGM now he has zenolink.

Forgive me I can not help it, coming over to Sydney anytime soon Guru ?

What's the difference between a smaller blade club with a smaller thinner sole and the mass directly behind the ball..and… a larger perimeter weighted club with the majority of the mass around the outside of the face and a huge sole?

the blade says “You can do this…there's a sweetspot there.. swing me in shallow ….go ahead and find it, I'll give you the necessary feedback and you can reap the rewards long term”

The perimeter weighted large head says. “You're a hack, just swing away.. hit me anywhere on the face and fat me and let my big sole chunk something forward for you. Yes I may give you a half decent result for now but over time I will be your downfall”

im digging this post, brad, so so true…...

I have played blades my whole life, and yes i have tried others also, but blades MAKE you work the ball, make you hit the shots and make you work for ball striking ability and results….

love it.

Guru,
No problems will stay out of here, although GN should stay out my thread which is fair call. One quick response and out of here.

Ben,
My name is not Chris, you have the wrong dude. I’m not a Croker man. I Know most of the golf machine guys and know dart for many years, I introduced Dart to ZenoLink, which he intergrades with his teachings along with many other coaches who use ZenoLink and do the same and Guru.

paul
I have been on this scene longer that you, i have known, these guys from the time they were kids, please dont tell me i am mistaken, chriss was a crocker deciple till he met paul hart who converted him to TGM now he has zenolink.

Bendoon:
It sure is not Zenb. I’d suggest this post belongs in the Zeno thread if you wish to discuss who is who.

Waffle: nothing planned right now for Sydney.

Brad, don’t leave, you are talking my language.

There are some that can and they play and there are some that can’t and they coach. Seems to me you have bridged the gap between player and coach very well.

Also seems to me there are plenty of critics who could never play to your standard so they coached. Ignore them!

Brad intersted in your start in golf, did you learn from extensive coaching or did you learn from practice and feel ie natural?

Who shaped your philosphies which I happen to fully agree with?

Lets hope the scientists stay in their thred from now on.

Styles,
Lie angles have to be considered…we can get some variance but going 4 and 5 degrees upright is crazy…
If you actually envision the golf swing in a different light what I say only makes sense. Try pretending your a baseball player and swing a golf club at waist high… where is the path.? it’s around and around. The club will deliver way from around your body and you will turn your body through the strike. Ever see a good baseball player swing out along the target line?...no because they won’t hit the ball or time it properly…. Golf swing is no different except the ball is on the ground which makes everyone want to go swinging it too much down thee line thinking that will hit the ball straight for them. A golf swing is similar to a baseball swing’s path but it’s on an inclined plane with us looking downwards at the ball instead of level with the ball.

Lie angles are only one part of the equation…the mass behind the ball is another…..the weight another….a few other things to determine about whether we will see a truly great ball striker again…. plus the ball today is too hard and harder to compress….it’s all about distance and trying to straighten the shot out. The best ball strikers had a ball that they could move around the golf course not just one designed for length

Ball striking is great…...I avoid the trouble easier and don’t have to rely on having a hot putter to be able to compete or make a score

I have answered this a million times in this thread… McIlroy, Kaymer, Westwood, Ishikawa….are not poor ball strikers. They are great golfers..they can be a treat on any given day…but they are leaving some of their ability on the table by not following the guidelines that the absolute best ball strikers of history adhered to and aren’t as consistent as they could be for the very same reasons..

PS I didn’t say anything in Zen’s thread except about a week ago I asked the question “Can ground forces be seen”
(In fact it may have even been the Martin Ayers thread??)
I think they can if you understand the opposing forces scheme…he thinks they have to be measured with a machine. Nothing more than that.. I didn’t even elaborate on it or go farther. Just a question and have never touched the thread since

Brad, I have been around the traps a bit, during the time when you carved it up here in Aus. Back in those days, I was hitting the maxfly DP-30’s as was parry and allenby (australian blade), i must say the best ball striker I ever saw through those years was robert. Im curious as to your opinion on that point? would you consider him (regardless of this sucess) as one of the great ball strikers?

Robert always has been a great ball striker…. no surprises there when you see the intentions of his swing. When the hole opens up for him with the putter he contends….but he doesn’t have to live by that sword to make a great living and feature in events
DP30’s were great clubs. I used the Japanese version of it for a few years until i wore them out and couldn’t get my hands on any more.

Allenby at impact and post impact…this is why he has been a consistent striker for so long

Arms in tight with the body turning the club through…not by extending and rolling the club with hands and arms only

Robert always has been a great ball striker…. no surprises there when you see the intentions of his swing. When the hole opens up for him with the putter he contends….but he doesn't have to live by that sword to make a great living and feature in events
DP30's were great clubs. I used the Japanese version of it for a few years until i wore them out and couldn't get my hands on any more.

yeah agreed, I bought 2 sets, but hitting 300 balls a day 6 days a week, and the wear was unstoppable…..they were soft irons, with amazing feel, back then hitting 90 comp balata’s, forged blades, you really needed to know how to back yourself and work the ball for the desired results.

mate keep on crackin’ your a ripper, I meet you a few times, around KH and huntingdale when I was caddying during that time,

I just followed you on twitter, look forward to your updates there mate,

Robert always has been a great ball striker…. no surprises there when you see the intentions of his swing. When the hole opens up for him with the putter he contends….but he doesn't have to live by that sword to make a great living and feature in events
DP30's were great clubs. I used the Japanese version of it for a few years until i wore them out and couldn't get my hands on any more.

yeah agreed, I bought 2 sets, but hitting 300 balls a day 6 days a week, and the wear was unstoppable…..they were soft irons, with amazing feel, back then hitting 90 comp balata’s, forged blades, you really needed to know how to back yourself and work the ball for the desired results.

mate keep on crackin’ your a ripper, I meet you a few times, around KH and huntingdale when I was caddying during that time,

I just followed you on twitter, look forward to your updates there mate,

bendoon

I appreciate that you may wish not to answer this but from reading your posts you seem to have a fair insight into the game, maybe more than some around here.

I am guessing, purely guessing that you have a lot of knowledge about the game that could be really useful to some of the punters here.

Care to enlighten us

Hi Brad, I’ve just read through most of the thread and have to defend myself as one of the club fitters/builders that are going around.
I’m from your old stomping ground in Melbourne.
Personally I dynamically fit every player for lie angles to each individual club. Firstly we start with the traditional 5,7,9 iron fit and then tune the full set of irons as required.
We look at the best fit for a player in clubhead design for ball flight, then lie and loft. These are only afew of the parts of a great fit for the client. Shaft weight, length, flex, kickpoint, torque, grip size and swingweight are some of the normal areas to look at when making an assessment.
Making a demo club is not unusual to get the best feedback if suggesting a change in gear.
I must totally agree with you on the old style specs of clubs for the average player, most would benefit from pre 1980 specs.
Modern GI irons all do much the same and just launch the ball with spin.
Regardless of the match between you and Bio, let me say that he definately has a place in the industry as a helper, not a hindrance.
To not use the technology that has been developed since the early 1970s for the golfers of today is a backward step in helping all golfers reach their best potential.

Jon…

This is a question for everyone in this thread. Do you believe that today’s blades are easier to hit than blades from yesteryear? Let’s say pre 1995.

This is a question for everyone in this thread. Do you believe that today's blades are easier to hit than blades from yesteryear? Let's say pre 1995.

It's easy to grin / When your ship comes in / And you've got the stock market beat. / But the man worthwhile, / Is the man who can smile, / When his shorts are too tight in the seat.

Considering the technology in fitting with regards to the variables in shafts alone, you could definately consider todays forged clubs, if setup correctly to be superior.
Jon…

Jon – Taking the shaft out of the equation, how do the heads compare?

Brad, I’m going to stop being an idiot.

Does Matt Kuchar’s swing appearing flatter resemble what you believe? I understand his impact position may be different but he seems to be a quality ballstriker.

A great 30/10 carbon forging will always be the very best, whether it’s from Maxfli ( 80s ) or Miura ( 2011 )
If it’s set up for you correctly it will be a weapon that you have total confidence in.
Jon…

Hi Brad, I've just read through most of the thread and have to defend myself as one of the club fitters/builders that are going around.
I'm from your old stomping ground in Melbourne.
Personally I dynamically fit every player for lie angles to each individual club. Firstly we start with the traditional 5,7,9 iron fit and then tune the full set of irons as required.
We look at the best fit for a player in clubhead design for ball flight, then lie and loft. These are only afew of the parts of a great fit for the client. Shaft weight, length, flex, kickpoint, torque, grip size and swingweight are some of the normal areas to look at when making an assessment.
Making a demo club is not unusual to get the best feedback if suggesting a change in gear.
I must totally agree with you on the old style specs of clubs for the average player, most would benefit from pre 1980 specs.
Modern GI irons all do much the same and just launch the ball with spin.
Regardless of the match between you and Bio, let me say that he definately has a place in the industry as a helper, not a hindrance.
To not use the technology that has been developed since the early 1970s for the golfers of today is a backward step in helping all golfers reach their best potential.

Jon…

Great introduction Jon, welcome to this thread, this is exactly, EXACTLY, what I believe, I do feel like the reverends wife in the Simpsons wondering “Why can’t we all just get along?”

If you actually envision the golf swing in a different light what I say only makes sense. Try pretending your a baseball player and swing a golf club at waist high… where is the path.? it's around and around. The club will deliver way from around your body and you will turn your body through the strike. Ever see a good baseball player swing out along the target line?...no because they won't hit the ball or time it properly…. Golf swing is no different except the ball is on the ground which makes everyone want to go swinging it too much down thee line thinking that will hit the ball straight for them. A golf swing is similar to a baseball swing's path but it's on an inclined plane with us looking downwards at the ball instead of level with the ball.

I agree, you’d be surprised who else agrees with you as well!

Check out this article:

Inside Golf – Golf and Baseball

bendoon

I appreciate that you may wish not to answer this but from reading your posts you seem to have a fair insight into the game, maybe more than some around here.

I am guessing, purely guessing that you have a lot of knowledge about the game that could be really useful to some of the punters here.

Care to enlighten us

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

Peg has Bear_Vision

Pegasus
I would be delighted to participate and answer any questions the forum members may ask to the best of my ability, unfortuately it has been them against us forum the last couple of days,and it seems the field that is played here is not level.

Styles not surprised because it is a an obvious body pattern.
One of my friends is pitching coach for the San Diego Padres and he comes and visits each January before they head off for training and we talk all this stuff and play some golf and shoot the wind…I know I said he is a pitching coach….but…he also understands batting as he has to look for flaws in the batter’s swings so he can work out the best way to pitch to them. He was floored that i understood this stuff and actually picked up a few hints along the way as he had never really picked up the real similarities (if you move the position of the ball)....
the only thing that article doesn’t mention is what i said about the round and round shallow entry which again is obviously easier from a flatter lie angle

Hey Brad

Thanks for your insights, I’ve dug out an old hogan apex blade and will be devoting some time next time I’m on the range..

I’ve tried a number of other training aids and found the hinged 5 iron to be one of the best for helping me feel the correct plane. Do you have an opinion on this aid?

We have to remember we ARE the dynamic part of the swing… not the club itself….which is exactly what clubmakers (look at any golf advertisement anywhere anytime…10 yards longer, 6 mph faster).try to prove otherwise.. ..... the club doesn’t move itself…it will move based on how we want to move it
So if I want to swing fast I can use as much hands as I want….BUT…. it won’t allow me to square the face at impact for directional control.
You swing fast by increasing your range of motion with your torso rotation…..

so again….a flatter swing matched to a flatter lie angle brings the club shallower into the ball with hands leading and body turning…. so go ahead create your speed with your torso rotation and in doing so you enhance your efforts at keeping the club face square

an upright swing with upright equipment will be all about the hands and arms….slapping from the top, losing lag power, pre releasing the club, wanting to dump the club into the ground behind the ball so you stall the body and flick your hands to get it to the ball at impact and the clubface can be pointing anywhere….left ..right and maybe straight

A flat swing with upright equipment doesn’t help because you still have to stall the shoulders near impact to allow those hands to lift and raise away from the body….then everyone carries on the club speed by hand roll and clubface roll..not by torso rotation because the body has stopped and the hands are motoring the club on their own accord.
They end up with a stylish looking finish but the damage was done before that at the moment of truth.

I can use Kuchar and Furyk to show the differences…... even though Kuchar has a flat backswing and Furyk has a steep backswing.. coming on the downswing Furyk is hands down flatter… hence the red line pointing outside the ball.
Kuchar has already altered his flat backswing to steep downswing as the shaft line indicates by pointing at the ball.
Kuchar is straightening his legs to begin to make room for his body to quit and his arms straighten and raise to try and ensure a solid strike., Furyk is keeping knee flex and ground connection and coming from a flatter shallower approach.
The big difference is impact and this is why flat swing (on approach) wins hands down over steeper swing into impact.

Kuchar has to stop his shoulders in a vertical steep position and raise his hands up which will match his upright lie angles he uses. The blue shoulder line and the red shaft line are in opposite directions which means clubface control and ball control will be much more difficult…. Kuchar can do it as shown by his consistent past year or so as he has good rhythum and practices it daily to keep his feel. 99% of the golfing population can’t….and even some of thePGA guys can’t time it when it gets to Sunday of a Major or a PGA eventand the pressure is on and your body receives different signals.

Furyk at impact is coming in with lower hands which will also match a shallower flatter downswing and a flatter lie angle…. his shoulders and torso can rotate through the hit as he is keeping his hands/arms in tight to his body as a unit….. his shoulders (blue line) match perfectly with his shaft (red line).....he can create as much speed as he wants by using torso rotation not by flipping his hands

If you know what to look for hopefully many will see Furyk’s swing in an entirely different light and understand the reasoning behind his consistent play of the past 15 years even in the bomb and gouge era.

Both great players….based on what I see here however I would pick Furyk on my team before Kuchar if my life depended on it.

I don’t have a Kuchar shot from out in front to show the difference from that view but will put Stewart Cink in his place as he has very similar impact positions to Kuchar and will again compare it to Furyk.

The stall and flip from a steep angle into impact closes the clubface rapidly making timing a huge issue on a day to day basis.
Furyk rotates the clubface through with his body and not just his hands so he therefore keeps the face much squarer and in line with his body center ( chi) ......therefore he is a much more consistent player day in and day out.

This is why i say what we see post impact has a huge bearing on what happens into impact…it’s like a little x-ray to use….but again for some reason today’s instruction and club fitting somehow believe it permissible to do these other things such as stalling the body and rolling the hands and clubface… the affects are huge and this is exactly the point I have been trying to impress so you guys can improve….

this is something we all should aim for if we want to get better. It will improve the quality of our good shots and certainly help eradicate the recklessness of our bad shots….and it will be easier to repeat because it cuts out the issue of stalling, slapping and flicking by keeping more constant motion of the body hands and arms as a unit

Brad
That is a great example of what u are saying, may i add that looking at those frames, the right forarm coming into impact is in line with the shaft.
Any player who would start their swing as per frame1, would definately end up as per frame4, even though furyk does the loop de loop, i can see how a lot of power can be generated from hip height.

I don't have a Kuchar shot from out in front to show the difference from that view but will put Stewart Cink in his place as he has very similar impact positions to Kuchar and will again compare it to Furyk.

The stall and flip from a steep angle into impact closes the clubface rapidly making timing a huge issue on a day to day basis.
Furyk rotates the clubface through with his body and not just his hands so he therefore keeps the face much squarer and in line with his body center ( chi) ......therefore he is a much more consistent player day in and day out.

This is why i say what we see post impact has a huge bearing on what happens into impact…it's like a little x-ray to use….but again for some reason today's instruction and club fitting somehow believe it permissible to do these things… the affects are huge and this is exactly the point I have been trying to impress so you guys can improve….

this is something we all should aim for if we want to get better. It will improve the quality of our good shots and certainly help eradicate the recklessness of our bad shots….and it will be easier to repeat because it cuts out the issue of stalling, slapping and flicking by keeping more constant motion of the body hands and arms as a unit

Brad
What would be the ideal set up at address to acheive this shallower attack at impact.

Brad
May i also ask your views on these robotic set ups that are been taught to players, straight back bum out and dont look at all athletic or comfortable.

Really enjoying your posts and info Brad – Thanks for taking the time to post on here. 99.9% of us appreciate it!

Hope you can hang around for a bit longer.

By the way, Rossdale’s a bit wet at the moment!

bendoon…setup is not a direct correlation to impact …in some ways it doesn’t hurt however..
I would aim for the end of grip/ butt of club to bepointing somewhere near the body’s center (belly button or belt) or chi at address ….with the same similar butt of club /chi relationship the ideal for impact with a bit of body clearance

Lie angle at address is irrelevant so toe can be up down or level

Don’t like robopro looking setups…..you can be natural and athletic without having bum out straight back etc etc… that just seems an injury waiting to happen by trying to stay too much in one place and then pressuring and torquing the body around a stiff (not oily or fluid) setup or movement away

but still with the “reverse K” sort of slight tilt toward the back foot?

Brad thx
Thats the answer i was hopeing for.
You have a vast amount of knowledge,i am sure this forum will benifate from your input.
Dart guru and zen also have a vast amount to offer.

Brad
That is a great example of what u are saying, may i add that looking at those frames, the right forarm coming into impact is in line with the shaft.
Any player who would start their swing as per frame1, would definately end up as per frame4, even though furyk does the loop de loop, i can see how a lot of power can be generated from hip height.

The right arm reeks havoc to a golf swing… Hogan worked this out. Just about all the best ball strikers used a bent right arm at impact for supporting the club and then used their pivot rotation to get the club through from there.
Like I said….the true principles of hitting a ball with power and control was left by the greats for all to see, but not many abide by those principles…golf instruction neglects the blue print and the equipment points people farther in the wrong direction

No surprises below when we look at Hogan, Byron Nelson, Johnny Miller, lee Trevino and Nick faldo… they all match the Furyk model and were all renowned as some of the best (if not the best) strikers ever

but still with the “reverse K” sort of slight tilt toward the back foot?

If your ball is closer to your left foot than your right foot….and…..your right hand is lower on the club (this promotes a lowering of the right shoulder and a softening of the right arm) then your weight will be tilted to the right… especially when the club gets longer and your stance gets wider.

If we want the club to be delivered from around our body on a shallow plane …why would you want weight on your left side?...like so many instructors today seem to want to suggest….that just sets you up for the body stall and hand roll

Pressuring the right foot is a huge key….the feel of driving the weight left isn’t as real as people will have you believe….The Shark never went lateral as shown by the pic below where the scales show over 65% of his weight still on his right foot with the club approx 10 inches from impact…. the man was awesome and the ground shook when he hit… he most certainly knew what he was doing.

Off topic here…
Just wanted to run this by you BH. In another thread i notice that RTL uses a 43.5 inch shaft in the driver in order to hit it straighter and more consistently.
By my way of thinking, the shorter the shaft, the more upright it will be. Likewise, a longer shaft would encourage a flatter swing.

How does this fit in with your notion that a flatter swing is beneficial for improved accuracy.

a longer shaft should encourage a flatter swing ….BUT …if it is light in weight and upright in angle …you are going to lose the flat path and come in steep to the ball….
plus too much length in a shaft although fine for a backswing will tempt you to come back along the target line for fear of hitting the ground well before impact when coming back into the ball….
envision swinging a telegraph pole or even 50 inch driver shaft… all can be well going back…but we don’t hit the ball going back, we hit it coming down and through…so we have to give ourselves every advantage.
Long and especially long and light won’t get it done except if your’e a long driver competitor and you only need one money ball out of 6 hits. Playing real golf on a real golf course doesn’t afford you the luxury of only hitting one good drive out of every six.

Hey Brad,

It’s interesting to note that even the specs on current blades are different than years gone by with stronger lofts, longer lengths and upright lie angles, Could this have somthing to do with modern teachings, and the build of current pro’s. They used to say years ago the perfect height for golfers was 5 foot 9. Now they say 6 feet +

Also, are you going to be playing any Australian events this year and if so will Snelly be on the bag? He is a mate of mine also:)

Cheers

Brad you always mention Hogan, Trevino as great ball strikers, as they rightly were, however, why do so many people not mention Nicklaus as a great ball striker?

GN
What are some of the pitfalls to avoid when flattening your swing i.e. ball position too far away from the body, hands too low, level shoulders etc.?

GN
What are some of the pitfalls to avoid when flattening your swing i.e. ball position too far away from the body, hands too low, level shoulders etc.?

It ain't over till it's over.

Raz
Thats a loaded question,can u point out the pit falls of an upright swing.?
Dont start shit ok

Raz
You want the answer to that,when done correctly there both efficient ok.
A pitfall is an incorrect movement of either swing including ball placement, shoulder turn and anything else you wish to throw in.
And dam well stop baiting him his been around to long.
You keep this up and he will leave,its good to listen to other peoples interpretions and ideas, eat it all up, shit out the crap, and retain the vitamins.
Just to add to that, swing flat with an upright golf club your gone unless you make a hand action adjustment,swing upright with a flat golf club same applies.
What governs the lie angle of a golf club.
1st plane line.
2nd hand action at impact.
3rd shaft flex.

No baiting from me, just interested. There will be many readers of this thread who may decide to swing flatter based on what Brad has said. This is not for me because I swing flat. I know some of the issues but it is Brad’s thread so he should be the one to post on this.

No baiting from me, just interested. There will be many readers of this thread who may decide to swing flatter based on what Brad has said. This is not for me because I swing flat. I know some of the issues but it is Brad's thread so he should be the one to post on this.

It ain't over till it's over.

Raz
Fine i thought you was stirring, i will shut up.
cheers

Brad id be interested to know your thoughts on the scourge of astroturf mats at driving ranges and the impact on feedback from your strike. I believe your divot pattern tells you many things about whats going on at impact and just beforehand. I.e too steep/shallow, across the line, too far from the inside etc. That feedback is what helps you sort out many a ballstriking issue.

But with mats you dont have any feedback and a valuable part of the process during practice goes missing. None of the greats practiced on anything but grass so curious to hear your thoughts on it all. Finding a grass driving range, especially in Sydney is a rarity and i belive makes it harder to be as solid a ballstriker as 10-15 years ago before they came in. One now has to get creative in finding other ways to practice of grass.

Brad id be interested to know your thoughts on the scourge of astroturf mats at driving ranges and the impact on feedback from your strike. I believe your divot pattern tells you many things about whats going on at impact and just beforehand. I.e too steep/shallow, across the line, too far from the inside etc. That feedback is what helps you sort out many a ballstriking issue.

But with mats you dont have any feedback and a valuable part of the process during practice goes missing. None of the greats practiced on anything but grass so curious to hear your thoughts on it all. Finding a grass driving range, especially in Sydney is a rarity and i belive makes it harder to be as solid a ballstriker as 10-15 years ago before they came in. One now has to get creative in finding other ways to practice of grass.

elk groupie

i have a strong opinion on this,

i have been hitting from grass for 20 od years. Mats are bad news IMHO. I was also lead to believe many years ago that forged clubs can suffer lie angle and loft issues with constant matt practice.

Also regarding divots, I also dont entirely agree with it being the be all and end all. divot takers who compress the ball, will take big divots always, even with long irons. Although they can give you some indication, I dont always believe them to be accurate and true. I have hit many a pure shot stiff, aligned tracked, and stingers where divots showed otherwise.

Sure matts are better than not hitting at all, but nothing beats grass

Well this thread prompted me to pull out my 1976 Wilson Staff blades and compare them side by side to my Mizuno MP-52 irons (had never done that before).

First, the WS 3 irons is around 23deg wheres the Mizzy 3 iron is 21deg and 4 iron is 3deg….so there is approx 1 club difference in loft.

Second, the length of the Staff’s are exactly 2 clubs different to the Mizzy’s. ie, the WS 3 iron is the same length as the Mizzy 5 iron, WS 4 iron is the same length as the Mizzy 6 iron, etc…I must say though that the Mizzy’s were ordered +0.25”.

Next, the Staff’s are much heavier than the Mizzy’s (not a bad thing by any means).

As far as difference in lies are concerned I cant say what the differences are as I haven’t has them measured. However side by side they feel more or less the same, the Staff’s are probably a tad flatter, but it’s so hard to tell the difference of a couple of degrees.

Normally I try and play 9 holes with the blades at least once a month and I never, ever take anything but the blades with me to my weekly range session. However I have hit only the Mizzies in the past 3-4 weeks (have not touched the blades at all) and right now I’m not hitting the best, coincidence? Maybe not. I’m now planning 9 holes with the Staff’s before this week is out.

Now for some context.

a. I don’t have a handicap but usually get around in +20 to +25
b. I only play 9 holes per week
c. With perhaps 1 or 2 range sessions per week

I just thought I’d post this up to help further the discussion….I don’t expect anyone to put any stock in what a hacker like me has to say.

Hi Brad, I've just read through most of the thread and have to defend myself as one of the club fitters/builders that are going around.
I'm from your old stomping ground in Melbourne.
Personally I dynamically fit every player for lie angles to each individual club. Firstly we start with the traditional 5,7,9 iron fit and then tune the full set of irons as required.
We look at the best fit for a player in clubhead design for ball flight, then lie and loft. These are only afew of the parts of a great fit for the client. Shaft weight, length, flex, kickpoint, torque, grip size and swingweight are some of the normal areas to look at when making an assessment.
Making a demo club is not unusual to get the best feedback if suggesting a change in gear.
I must totally agree with you on the old style specs of clubs for the average player, most would benefit from pre 1980 specs.
Modern GI irons all do much the same and just launch the ball with spin.
Regardless of the match between you and Bio, let me say that he definately has a place in the industry as a helper, not a hindrance.
To not use the technology that has been developed since the early 1970s for the golfers of today is a backward step in helping all golfers reach their best potential.

Jon…

Golfguy33
Hi can i give you a senario,what would you do if you come across a tall golfer low marker, that has standard or flat lie angle,or a short player low marker, who has an upright lie angle.
How would you go about fitting them to clubs.
would you send them to spend time with their respective coaches, to get the tall player more upright and the short player more flatter or would you fit them to there swing.
You are a fitter so your the best man to ask this question.
but i would like members thought on it as well.
cheers going to bed and i’m looking forward to the answers.

Styles not surprised because it is a an obvious body pattern.
One of my friends is pitching coach for the San Diego Padres and he comes and visits each January before they head off for training and we talk all this stuff and play some golf and shoot the wind…I know I said he is a pitching coach….but…he also understands batting as he has to look for flaws in the batter's swings so he can work out the best way to pitch to them. He was floored that i understood this stuff and actually picked up a few hints along the way as he had never really picked up the real similarities (if you move the position of the ball)....
the only thing that article doesn't mention is what i said about the round and round shallow entry which again is obviously easier from a flatter lie angle

Brad,
I wrote the article Styles posted he dug up, The reason we don’t talk about shallow entry etc is were are purely looking at the body generating power,movement and speed. Swing planes is a golf coaches field, he teaches the plane all we do is train the athlete’s engine. In baseball the batter is also changing swing planes to stike the ball. When Chris did research on baseball intially they place the ball on a tee ball stand once movement etc was established they then test basballers in real time on the field.
No difference in patterns, even baseballers hips decelerate and supper stiffen at impact, Crazy and hard to believe but this happens.

but still with the “reverse K” sort of slight tilt toward the back foot?

If your ball is closer to your left foot than your right foot….and…..your right hand is lower on the club (this promotes a lowering of the right shoulder and a softening of the right arm) then your weight will be tilted to the right… especially when the club gets longer and your stance gets wider.

If we want the club to be delivered from around our body on a shallow plane …why would you want weight on your left side?...like so many instructors today seem to want to suggest….that just sets you up for the body stall and hand roll

Pressuring the right foot is a huge key….the feel of driving the weight left isn’t as real as people will have you believe….The Shark never went lateral as shown by the pic below where the scales show over 65% of his weight still on his right foot with the club approx 10 inches from impact…. the man was awesome and the ground shook when he hit… he most certainly knew what he was doing.

Brad this research was done and put in a golf magazine in 1986 from memory. They tested 30 top tours player. This was measuring downward pressure what we call normal force. Although this doesn’t quantify shear forces or the friction which is used to generate hip acceleration or deceleration and the lower body stabilisation. The did their research again in late 89 and then early 90’s. They tested the players using pressure plates which measure both Normal and Shear forces.
In their findings they proved that these old scales were to slow to accurately measure Normal forces and give a true reading they were very delayed in measurement. The other reason they found them to be inaccurate is when you press from the right foot into your left foot on the downswing the scales under the right foot would increase due to pressing off your right foot to move and shift weight into left foot and left side. They found your Centre of mass and Centre of pressure was 70% on your left side (the Normal forces an shear forces) This research found that in order to generate shear forces which generate hip rotation or torque and hip deceleration, the centre of mass and pressure had to move to the left side. They proved that Greg Norman at impact 70% of his weight was on his left side, his centre of pressure and centre of mass was on his left side of the centre of impact.
The pressure plates used in this research was 1/100th of a second.

I will put the club idea in a different way:

How do we explain the fact that the Hogan’s Nelson’s Player’s Nicklaus’ Normans’ Trevino’s Irwins’ Lema’s etc etc… (I will even throw myself in there just for fun)......learn to be able to swing the club with dynamic power all with different looking backswings and yet with control with a bent right arm for support of the club, with loaded ground pressures and the club pointing at the center of the body core at impact and the body turning the club through and not by hand flicking?

They all had no access to videos or trackmans or bio outfitting or club fitting… they all had limited instruction and never relied on a guru to tell them what to do…..(Nicklaus saw his coach once a year when he was pro).. yet they all did it beautifully and along the correct protocols

Was it pot luck?.......or did the equipment help them achieve it by giving them the necessary feedback, weight of club to allow these swings, correct lie angles and length of shaft to make their swing evolve….etc etc? Was the equipment inferior or superior?

Can you clarify what you are saying there Hugo?

It seems that you are saying that all of the players from yesteryear played well solely because of their equipment and players of today are playing worse or leaving something on the table because of their equipment.

Where did all the crap swings from people aged 30+ come from then? Going by what you are saying they had all the advantages in equipment but the truth of it is, that there are a HELL of a lot of crap golfers aged 30+ who would have had the same equipment “advantage” growing up.

Lets rephrase your question:

How do we explain the fact that there are countless golfers who played the same equipment as the Hogan's Nelson's Player's Nicklaus' Normans' Trevino's Irwins' Lema's etc etc… (I will even throw myself in there just for fun)...... and yet THEY DIDN’T learn to be able to swing the club with dynamic power all with different looking backswings and yet with control with a bent right arm for support of the club, with loaded ground pressures and the club pointing at the center of the body core at impact and the body turning the club through and not by hand flicking?

Why isn’t everyone who learned to play golf at that time a magnificent ball striker?

three impacts of Hogan, Trevino and Norman with a line drawn up from the ball
If the majority of their body is actually behind the ball then the majority of their weight would be over that side.
I am talking reality of what needs to be felt ….trying to let a person see it from a feel and visual perspective not a scientific method.
We can’t feel science but we can feel reality and motion and this is why S&T and theories don’t work because they are trying to keep people left but it negates the reality.
Too much weight left too early means you can’t get the club from around you so you come down steep….steep means body stall… body stall means hand flip

what about the oft repeated statement “feel isn’t real”?

Not trying to provoke you Bradley, just wondering that if the greats were around today, could we learn even more about what they are doing by utilising the equipment available to truly see what was going on?

I suspect that if Hogan were playing today he would definitely want to know what he was doing. Haven’t I read on various forums that what Hogan said he did was not what he actually did?

Styles….. Growing up I saw much better golf swings from the pros, your good amateurs, your average amateurs and your totally crap amateurs…..nowadays the swing pattern has deteriorated because you don’t have to be precise. You just slap away and hope to make contact..
If all this technology was so superior why wouldn’t everyone be better?
They aren’t…...they have technology that is meant to drive the wheel for them, but the handicaps and play level is still well below par even with ‘superior’ training tools and scientific thoughts because their fundamentals get worse and are now based on swing logic that isn’t as beneficial to improvement and reaching higher levels of standard..

Mate I went through all this stuff….I can look at it from a totally different perspective because I was a good player at a young age and then golf society changed….. I walked in and joined the herd in the hope of using all these advancements to improve to a higher standard and never improved. My swing actually deteriorated and I base my belief on this ‘real life’ experiment.

If I couldn’t improve and actually ended up with a worse swing and worse ball control later on down the road… as a professional golfer who made a living from the game…. what hope has your average Joe got of keeping above the curve…..

Hogan did exactly what he said he was doing…depends on how you read his words and if you understand exactly what he is saying and are able to apply his thoughts to true fundamentals.

He didn’t hide anything…....people have always tried to swing like Hogan and can’t do it…..why…. because everyone overlooks the fact that Hogan had very flat clubs with sharp leading edges to enable precision of his body to strike them and heavy weights to help his free ride down and his post impact acceleration free of hand action

three impacts of Hogan, Trevino and Norman with a line drawn up from the ball
If the majority of their body is actually behind the ball then the majority of their weight would be over that side.
I am talking reality of what needs to be felt ….trying to let a person see it from a feel and visual perspective not a scientific method.
We can't feel science but we can feel reality and motion and this is why S&T and theories don't work because they are trying to keep people left but it negates the reality.
Too much weight left too early means you can't get the club from around you so you come down steep….steep means body stall… body stall means hand flip

Brad,
I understand what your saying, In the other post was it pot luck with the old greats. Have you ever considered these guys woke and had it. Norman started at 15 a player by 17. An anthropologist contacted Chris and said that they believe from research the kinetic link was part of our DNA dating back to cave man days to club or spear an animal. He went on to say that they believe why this pattern as been lost is we no longer throw spears etc,

Brad what I don’t understand is what is wrong with measuring and understanding how all the greats moved, how they created motion ,speed and power. That’s what Chris did, So we can pass this information onto the the next generation? Once we figured this out, it was OK, so how on earth do you train these patterns. The research began testing drills etc to train these patterns like the greats.The hard part was developing individual training programs specific to each athletes to train the break downs in their patterns. This took many years of research to achieve and now we can train people the right patterns which drives the golf swing. Once these patterns are trained and developed the player develops their own feels in their swing.
We are only training the engine though we still need guys like your self to train their swing planes and mechanics etc to produce a flat swing and all the good stuff.
What is wrong with what were are doing? isn’t this a positive stuff what we are doing ? Players still develop their own feelings which they own.

It’s human nature to try and utilize whatever you can to improve.. BUT when the info is coming from sources that are guessing by not being able to do what they are trying to explain then things can go haywire.
Anyone watch the Haney Project on Golf Channel with Charles Barkley….....all he tried to teach him was the backswing trying to say that would take care of his downswing hitch by getting ‘on plane’ all throughout…..it was a total disaster and now Barkley is even worse.
Haney needed to teach him proper impact and then let Barkley feel the backswing to suit and match up to the true impact and post impact ideals. It was a waste of 10 weeks and brain cells.

No one has to agree or do what I have to say. I know it works because of my own experiences. I think it is logical and easy to do because what I am suggesting does half the work for without having to try and hit positions or do such and such.
I can’t force you to do it or feel it…. but what I am talking about is giving you every opportunity to head towards improvement, because I am not worrying 100% where my hips have to be and when I have to stall them so I can straighten them…..
or making you try to swing on one plane when the perfect feel is to actually feel like you are never on plane to be able to truly pressure the club onto plane where it really matters…at impact and beyond…. it’s all madness… no use trying to keep the club ‘on plane’ (as they call it) on the backswing and downswing if you are going to throw it off plane through the strike and post impact… why not go the other route…feel off plane except when it matters

Lots to consider and ponder. My suggestions will help you head down that trodden path that the flushers used to affect…..if you think about it from a golfer’s perspective and not what society seems to want to tell us, then you’ll begin to understand it all. If not we can talk around in circles forever and a day…

Styles….. Growing up I saw much better golf swings from the pros, your good amateurs, your average amateurs and your totally crap amateurs…..nowadays the swing pattern has deteriorated because you don't have to be precise. You just slap away and hope to make contact..
If all this technology was so superior why wouldn't everyone be better?
They aren't……they have technology that is meant to drive the wheel for them, but the handicaps and play level is still well below par even with ‘superior' training tools and scientific thoughts because their fundamentals get worse and are now based on swing logic that isn't as beneficial to improvement and reaching higher levels of standard..

Mate I went through all this stuff….I can look at it from a totally different perspective because I was a good player at a young age and then golf society changed….. I walked in and joined the herd in the hope of using all these advancements to improve to a higher standard and never improved. My swing actually deteriorated and I base my belief on this ‘real life' experiment.

If I couldn't improve and actually ended up with a worse swing and worse ball control later on down the road… as a professional golfer who made a living from the game…. what hope has your average Joe got of keeping above the curve…..

Hugo, I don’t disagree with what you are saying, in that there are a HELL of a lot of crap swings on the go today, a lot of choppers and hackers up and down the planet. Where I struggle to fully embrace what you say is that as a 38 year old who has been playing golf for around 28 years I have seen crappy swings on people who have been playing golf for years, crappy swings that have always been crappy. It goes back to what I asked earlier that you didn’t really answer, that is, If every junior on the planet had modern clubs taken off them and were handed flat lie clubs from the 5os, would it guarantee “the next Hogan” would emerge?

I don’t think for one second it would guarantee it, just as I don’t think if every junior in the land was screened by Zen and given PSTs would it guarantee the next Hogan would appear. I DO think that they would all improve their sequencing, but that is not at all the same as the absolute magical chemistry of things coming together to produce a Hogan. There has only been one of them in almost 500 years of the game, perhaps the reason for that doesn’t lie solely in the equipment – note, I’m not saying it might not have a part in the reason, just that it is not at all the only reason.

I hope these points will at the very least broaden your mind ever so much to think that the “old is good, new is bad” mantra can maybe in certain circumstances be allowed some leeway.

Zen
i applaud you for trying to get the science fasts and give that to people…some people want that as they think knowing will make them better….. but they are the same people who get tied up in knots when swinging because they are trying to do something correctly based on models alone.
there is no model. You can’t just stick a club somewhere in the swing and make it work… there is a multitude of factors working underneath the surface.
Hogan, Trevino and other guys were never tested so how do we know what they we doing bio mechanically?
We can guess or we can utilize the same tools and intentions that they used in their swings to better ourselves. that’s what I am doing. Not playing by positions… like computer screens and such love to do. I could stick the club exactly where Tiger Woods has it… will it make me better?....probably not ..definitely not…because there is more to it
I know what these players intentions and feels are because I can hit the ball well with a variety of different motions and can pinpoint the feels associated with each different motion and the how leads to the why and the do’s to the don’ts.
The great players all had different looking motions going back but were almost to a man moulded into impact and beyond with the same look… even by going an entirely different route to get there. that’s why I say what I do.

backswing doesn’t matter…but that’s what everyone wants to teach.

right arm straightening and thrusting reeks havoc on the strike and control but no-one seems to care as they teach it as ok and build equipment to encourage the right arm straightening

on plane isn’t really on plane as we are told because trying to keep the club on plane throughout doesn’t allow the club to be on plane in the correct area because it gives out near impact and then we see a slowing down and straightening and a throw of the club off plane going through impact

spine angle constant isn’t necessary because the greats never did it that way….they increased their spine angle away from the ball and with very good reason to keep the club behind them and from a shallow route

Just like you are trying to pin things down to a science, I am trying to pinpoint things down to the reality of what the best did and felt … something that has been forgotten by all and sundry who talk one plane swings and stacking over the ball and other such theories and try base it on science rather than actuality

What I talk about is nothing new….but has been forgotten in the industry’s search to give people a better game by giving them less beneficial equipment and poorer equipment setup and poorer swing ideals based around the ‘power logic’

Getting successfully around a golf course is still about precision and ball control…. not just power….something that has entirely been lost and forgotten

Styles….. there is more to being a good golfer than just a swing. obviously you know that

Making the correct decisions on shot selection, club selection, trajectory of flight comes into play, judgement of the wind, the roll, the contours
The mental side of the game and blocking distractions is crucial and of course the entire landscape changes all the time because of different courses and conditions and firmness of greens or softness of fairways

It’s a friggin hard game with all that other stuff going on…..but again…. what I say is trying to stack the aces and kings in people’s hands more consistently on a daily basis

We can stand there all day and try time the slap of the hands by practicing and then wake up the very next day or even the back nine holes without that timing feel and our game is back to crap in an instant
or
we can swing shallower and flatter and let our body bring the club through and eliminate the slap and time of the clubface

Lag made a great comparison about this along these lines.

What I am setting people up for is like they are just getting back on a bicycle each day and riding it…....

the other way that people have trended towards is like getting back on a bicycle each day and riding it….but with amnesia....

meaning they have to find that timing of the slap and flick and roll feel each and every day to stay consistent…. so they get the 4’s and 5’s in their deck….instead of holding the picture cards like I am pointing people towards

Zen
i applaud you for trying to get the science fasts and give that to people…some people want that as they think knowing will make them better….. but they are the same people who get tied up in knots when swinging because they are trying to do something correctly based on models alone.
there is no model. You can't just stick a club somewhere in the swing and make it work… there is a multitude of factors working underneath the surface.
Hogan, Trevino and other guys were never tested so how do we know what they we doing bio mechanically?
We can guess or we can utilize the same tools and intentions that they used in their swings to better ourselves. that's what I am doing. Not playing by positions… like computer screens and such love to do. I could stick the club exactly where Tiger Woods has it… will it make me better?....probably not ..definitely not…because there is more to it
I know what these players intentions and feels are because I can hit the ball well with a variety of different motions and can pinpoint the feels associated with each different motion and the how leads to the why and the do's to the don'ts.
The great players all had different looking motions going back but were almost to a man moulded into impact and beyond with the same look… even by going an entirely different route to get there. that's why I say what I do.

backswing doesn't matter…but that's what everyone wants to teach.

right arm straightening and thrusting reeks havoc on the strike and control but no-one seems to care as they teach it as ok and build equipment to encourage the right arm straightening

on plane isn't really on plane as we are told because trying to keep the club on plane throughout doesn't allow the club to be on plane in the correct area because it gives out near impact and then we see a slowing down and straightening and a throw of the club off plane going through impact

spine angle constant isn't necessary because the greats never did it that way….they increased their spine angle away from the ball and with very good reason to keep the club behind them and from a shallow route

Just like you are trying to pin things down to a science, I am trying to pinpoint things down to the reality of what the best did and felt … something that has been forgotten by all and sundry who talk one plane swings and stacking over the ball and other such theories and try base it on science rather than actuality

What I talk about is nothing new….but has been forgotten in the industry's search to give people a better game by giving them less beneficial equipment and poorer equipment setup and poorer swing ideals based around the ‘power logic'

Getting successfully around a golf course is still about precision and ball control…. not just power….something that has entirely been lost and forgotten

Brad, I’m enjoying this discussion and very interesting.
I 100% agree about position and numbers, you can’t teach someone with number or positions. An example the hips open left 30 degrees at impact. That number is an end result created by a dynamic and fluid motion. You have to train the motion to achieve this number. I jump up and down when I see articles in golf magazine in the US a certain guy talking about X factors the the shoulders turn this amount on the back swing, hip amount blah blah. The back swing who cares. The back swing is to initiate motion so you can get in a position to generate the downswing. It all happens from transition and downswing where you generate power and speed. Baseball a great example, no back swing they step forward.
Brad we don’t have a swing model to teach to a swing model. We look at the most efficient way the body moves and generates power and speed. When they researched the top 100 players and Senior players in the early 90’s they found they had different swing mechanics. Although what they are had in common is how their body created speed power and motion, the kinetic link.
Our primary focus is to train dynamics fluid motion and as an end result the athletes produce a kinetic link, After that it’s up to the coach to get the mechanic and planes right.
I do get what you mean about numbers and with some coaches start working with us they get bogged down in numbers. it’s like dude look at the graphs they are telling the story, you can see the fluid motion of the golfer, the numbers don’t tell the story. Once they get it they realise dynamics, fluid motion.
Spine angles this stuff is only if there is to much bending going and compressing your spine, like a hoses if you kink a hose you cut of water flow, if the spine bends to much you can’t rotate around your spine to accelerate your upper body. But again this is causes from other break down in motion which cause this. You fix these through dynamics and spine angle is taken care of.

I know there is people out there talking numbers and they are on the wrong track most definitely, golf is a fluid dynamic motion and this is how it should be trained, The number they speak of is the end result from producing dynamics motions.

I have never mentioned Moe Norman as his swing is a little bit more mysterious to me and I will not make comment on something unless I 100% understand what he was doing or trying to do….but the ball didn’t lie and he has always been recognized as one of the finest ball strikers the game has ever known

Two quotes of his that I recently read really stand out to me:

“I like my clubs very very heavy E3 swingweight or greater- I believe in mass just as much as I believe in speed”

“Hitting the ball pure and accurate is more rewarding than hitting the ball far- don’t ever forget that”

Moe used a different setup more with the shaft and right arm in a line…..but he had flat lie angles….. used knee flex to get in touch with the ground for rotation purposes later in his swing….and realized the importance of a shallow flat entry into impact as shown by the photo below where he is demonstrating what he is trying to feel

three ticks for flat, heavy clubs from Hogan, Trevino and Moe… considered by many polls as the 3 greatest ball strikers ever

Slow day today with rain…....... that’s why I am posting so many different things all at once for people to ponder.

Most people on here if they ever saw me play don’t remember my true young swing…...I will post a video link below from 1992… this was my swing I grew up with and had better results with and much more power and control day in and day out…. i was very long and accurate…....this swing is very far from the swing people remember me by and you will notice very much the Greg Norman influence in my original swing…. I never made my right foot do that… in fact i didn’t even know I did it…..there is a reason to it.. which I now know and it was full of great swing intentions.

http://vimeo.com/23863297

I started getting coaching in mid 1993 and the entire thing altered….I got put into the early set and lost my transition and ground pressures and had to slow my tempo down to try and square the face up to the ball from the steep downswing.
next minute I was told to use clubs 3 degrees upright instead of the 2 degrees flat I was using….from then on it was a constant battle because my downswing became steeper and my body had to stall to catch the hands up to get the club square on the turf and a big right arm/hand roll crept in..as shown below

This is my very real life experience of why I talk about the things I do… I didn’t understand it all whatsoever at first because I was doing what I was told to do with my swing and thought I was being given the correct information…..
This is why I say it is rather important for a teacher to not only be able to tell you things about the swing but be able to do the moves themselves so they have first hand knowledge of the ins and outs…which is why I won’t touch on Moe Norman’s swing because I can’t do it well enough to be able to teach it to people.
.I saw first hand what happens when the wrong ideas are instilled and can see many of the same things it in my students and others that I watch…that’s why I believe 100% in what I suggest whether you are Tiger Woods or John Woods because I am not guessing.. it’s real life experiences that brought me to these conclusions.

Lee Trevino

” I use a gravity drop, that’s what I call it….putting the club right into the slot, then I fire into and through the ball by rotating my torso”

Same stuff straight from the horse’s mouth and why he chose heavier flatter clubs as his weapon of choice

Styles when asking about today’s players…

McIlroy does a great job into the ball … beautifully keeping the club behind him coming in…. and when in rhythm he is as good as anyone out there.
Where he gets into trouble, as evidenced at The Masters on the final day is that from this great entry slot he stiff legs it and thrusts the club away from his body on the way through…..when the pressure hit him the hardest and his entire body pace quickened his swing quickened also…. and he started shutting the face down quicker because he lost his tempo. Hence the snappers came in and plagued him. he either has to train a better release to stop this or he needs to really monitor his entire body tempo…. needs to slow things down and keep the rhythm better to resist this…. you could see him walking quicker, running between shots, thinking quicker… and he couldn’t keep it going unfortunately because I was hoping he could win.

Now Manessero is an entirely different proposition from what I have seen so far. this picture below shows he does all the right moves….flat shallow entry, right elbow supporting the club….. I give credit to his coach Alberto Binaghi, who I used to play with in Europe, for impressing these correct swing tools into this kid and making him resist the temptation of the long ball and thus losing these beautiful alignments he displays. Two wins in Europe before he turned 18 years old…. if he keeps this motion he will still be winning when he has a walking cane in his hand

Brad, don't leave, you are talking my language.

There are some that can and they play and there are some that can't and they coach. Seems to me you have bridged the gap between player and coach very well.

Also seems to me there are plenty of critics who could never play to your standard so they coached. Ignore them!

Brad intersted in your start in golf, did you learn from extensive coaching or did you learn from practice and feel ie natural?

Who shaped your philosphies which I happen to fully agree with?

Lets hope the scientists stay in their thred from now on.

shanks,
I was a very intent watcher…maybe a good student…maybe I went beyond the look also and watched for the similarities in all these players I was watching and the intentions.
Growing up with persimmon clubs helped too because I had to get more precise.
I watched The Shark …the way he addressed the ball…watched his waggle…how he set the club inside the ball on the toe of his club with arms connected, then how he slid it out to the ball and behind it as a sign he was about to get his swing ready to start….watched how he seemed to lower himself into address.. noticed his weight was on his heels more than the balls of his feet (which he backs up in a video I have of him talking about this years later) ... I understood what he was doing with his wide takeaway and realized he was letting the club drop to get transition started without exerting too much pressure on it….watched how he bent down into transition with his knees for support (which the weight on his heels seemed to support also) ...watched how he launched an all out attack on the ball close to impact (not before) and then noticed it was his body that whipped that club up skyward at the end not his hands flicking
I guess somehow I could see that and get inside his thoughts somehow and mimic it pretty well and make it work. We do have the same birthday so maybe I got to feed off the vibe…. I don’t know.
I got to see him up close in practice rounds when you could walk the fairways right next to the players without ropes…. I got to listen to him talk to him and his caddie and what was discussed….just osmosis stuff really. Somehow I got it and was able to put it into my own game.
I wouldn’t recommend all these thoughts for your average guy because to have a big wide late loading backswing you really need to transition smoothly with a gravity drop motion and then have tremendous horsepower at the bottom and beyond to make it work.. It can be done and is a great way to play golf… although I had no video to work with I trained those feels and worked it out in a way I could make it work nicely, not knowing what my swing really looked like, but knew what it felt like…. by knowing that, it was easier to repeat because I only had the feel to go find and not concern myself with computer lines and stick figures on a screen trying to find positions that seemed to match what he was doing.
I wasn’t a true golf natural. In fact I sucked but I was only 12 years old when I got my first handicap, and it was 29…..however I worked very hard when I was young and really got the bug. I would have a bag with 100 balls in it and I would hit a full bag of wedges, then 8 irons, then 6 irons, then 4 irons and then drivers/3 woods….so there’s 500 balls in a day right there….I would hit them and make sure I had 100 balls back in my bag at the end of each session….and then I’d go do the same with chipping and putting and throw 9 or 18 holes also.
So I worked hard and managed to tune that swing to a good standard.

Really enjoying your posts and info Brad – Thanks for taking the time to post on here. 99.9% of us appreciate it!

Hope you can hang around for a bit longer.

By the way, Rossdale's a bit wet at the moment!

'The only way of finding out a man's character is to play golf with him.'

I saw pics of Rossdale on their website totally under water….looked like one big hazard. Has been some tough weather in Aust

Simply awesome mate, really appreciate all of your work and insight.

Brad, don't leave, you are talking my language.

There are some that can and they play and there are some that can't and they coach. Seems to me you have bridged the gap between player and coach very well.

Also seems to me there are plenty of critics who could never play to your standard so they coached. Ignore them!

Brad intersted in your start in golf, did you learn from extensive coaching or did you learn from practice and feel ie natural?

Who shaped your philosphies which I happen to fully agree with?

Lets hope the scientists stay in their thred from now on.

shanks,
I was a very intent watcher…maybe a good student…maybe I went beyond the look also and watched for the similarities in all these players I was watching and the intentions.
Growing up with persimmon clubs helped too because I had to get more precise.
I watched The Shark …the way he addressed the ball…watched his waggle…how he set the club inside the ball on the toe of his club with arms connected, then how he slid it out to the ball and behind it as a sign he was about to get his swing ready to start….watched how he seemed to lower himself into address.. noticed his weight was on his heels more than the balls of his feet (which he backs up in a video I have of him talking about this years later) ... I understood what he was doing with his wide takeaway and realized he was letting the club drop to get transition started without exerting too much pressure on it….watched how he bent down into transition with his knees for support (which the weight on his heels seemed to support also) ...watched how he launched an all out attack on the ball close to impact (not before) and then noticed it was his body that whipped that club up skyward at the end not his hands flicking
I guess somehow I could see that and get inside his thoughts somehow and mimic it pretty well and make it work. We do have the same birthday so maybe I got to feed off the vibe…. I don't know.
I got to see him up close in practice rounds when you could walk the fairways right next to the players without ropes…. I got to listen to him talk to him and his caddie and what was discussed….just osmosis stuff really. Somehow I got it and was able to put it into my own game.
I wouldn't recommend all these thoughts for your average guy because to have a big wide late loading backswing you really need to transition smoothly with a gravity drop motion and then have tremendous horsepower at the bottom and beyond to make it work.. It can be done and is a great way to play golf… although I had no video to work with I trained those feels and worked it out in a way I could make it work nicely, not knowing what my swing really looked like, but knew what it felt like…. by knowing that, it was easier to repeat because I only had the feel to go find and not concern myself with computer lines and stick figures on a screen trying to find positions that seemed to match what he was doing.
I wasn't a true golf natural. In fact I sucked but I was only 12 years old when I got my first handicap, and it was 29…..however I worked very hard when I was young and really got the bug. I would have a bag with 100 balls in it and I would hit a full bag of wedges, then 8 irons, then 6 irons, then 4 irons and then drivers/3 woods….so there's 500 balls in a day right there….I would hit them and make sure I had 100 balls back in my bag at the end of each session….and then I'd go do the same with chipping and putting and throw 9 or 18 holes also.
So I worked hard and managed to tune that swing to a good standard.

Brad
By my memory was Rohan Dummet coaching you at one stage, if so, what did he work on?

hugo, you say you used to grind 500 balls a day at the range, followed by chipping, putting and then 9/18 holes.

Do you think this has a bearing on the fact that your swing was as good as it was in your prime?

Interesting what you thought about Rory. Personally i thought he made two bad swings on the sunday on ten and thirteen. I also thought he made terrible decisions on his third and fourth shots on ten. Apart from that i thought his tee to green play was magnificent that week and what beat him more than anything was what i truly consider his achilles heel, his putting, specifically his green reading and trust in the lines he picks. I’ve no idea what his set up is but can find out very easily. I believe that if rory could putt like tiger then he could win more majors than lack and eldrick combined!

damn, using predictive text on my phone. I mean’t to say jack and eldrick!

Brad

Thanks for the reply, thought as much, did the same as you and modelled my swing on a very good amateur with same size/build at my club when I started at 16 yrs old and via a very similar process got to a 1 handicap in 6 years.

Only have read 2 golf books, Nicklaus and Hogans and they only confused me because Nicklaus broke Hogans pane of glass on his backswing. Went straight back to feel then, no thoughts on backswing other than slow turn till I felt tight, drop club to inside and then rotate body through till I finished on right toe with belt at target produced a consistent draw.

Saw Norman win his first tournament at the West Lakes Classic and you knew something special was happening, the most fearless golf I have ever seen played.

Attended Aussie Masters many times, the best ball striker I have ever seen was Bernhard Langer in a 2 hrs range session. Man could he shape and flight a ball. It was at that point even though playing off 1 I realised I needed to get a real job, I would have been a very poor pro.

Your thoughts on his swing pattern?

Hi Brad …....... hitting 500 balls a day is never going to happen for just about everyone on here ….... so what hope do us mere mortals have, who hit a bucket of balls at the range once a fortnight, and fit in 18 holes a week in our local comp?

I’m not being cyncial here ….......... just wanting to know, to improve our games on such a limited practice / playing basis …........ what are we to do in order to take a few shots off our score, and hit a few more balls out of the middle.

Your suggestions are most welcome ….......

“Hogan's Nelson's Player's Nicklaus' Normans' Trevino's Irwins' Lema's etc etc… (I will even throw myself in there just for fun)......”

Hi hugo,

i reckon this makes sense . . . however, could it not be a ‘style’ thing . . . ie. someone turns up with flat clubs and swings well on a flat angle, then other people copy that . . . for no better reason than that guy was hitting it well, so lets copy that. We talked abit about this in the ‘scenious’ thread at ABS. A collection of people working on ideas, etc together.

Not disputing you at all, just thinking about the trends and tendencies of different eras. We see this type of group think or meme stuff in culture all the time. Gladwell writes about it in the tipping point.

Loving the thread, BTW.

Hi Brad …….... hitting 500 balls a day is never going to happen for just about everyone on here ……. so what hope do us mere mortals have, who hit a bucket of balls at the range once a fortnight, and fit in 18 holes a week in our local comp?

I'm not being cyncial here ……....... just wanting to know, to improve our games on such a limited practice / playing basis ……..... what are we to do in order to take a few shots off our score, and hit a few more balls out of the middle.

Your suggestions are most welcome ……....

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

The meek may inherit the earth ……..
but they'll never reach the par 5 green in two.

That was when I was 12-15 years old…..with no instruction, no golf channel, no internet and no video cameras or golf programs for reference,so I had to work it out myself and put a lot of work in….I know not many have that opportunity that’s why I came to this thread and started talking , to put forward ideas to make the task easier. Sticking to the guidelines on a straighter narrower zone of vision instead of switching and changing to every new fad that comes along and promises the world but is short on delivering.
That’s why I talk about wanting feedback of the strike… our brain and body really needs this… if we hit 100 balls a week and don’t know if we hit many off center we can’t get the necessary response to realize this and have no way of heading towards getting better… If you are going to practice, make the practice harder and worthwhile….get some fine tuning in because of it… then go bust whatever you want on the course for your round…but I am tipping over time you will actually enjoy receiving the feedback of your misses and start leaning to doing that more often because you get to understand your swing a little better each and every time

reading that quote from lee trevino, sergio garcia springs straight to mind, that “drop” he does at the start of the downswing is very pronounced, and then generates a ridiculous amount of lag with the club low and getting dragged around the body to the ball with a pretty shallow approach angle

saw him in melbourne, his ball striking is ridiculous, the sound it makes up close is something else

his is definately his “own” swing, quite different to a lot of other guys on tour

To give the look a name, he Float Loads. Sergio adds wrist cock on the initial move down. It compacts the time to get things done from the mega late load to a late release. Super cool to watch and hear for sure. You can learn to do it. It’s just not one of the easier things in life for most players to control.

“Hogan's Nelson's Player's Nicklaus' Normans' Trevino's Irwins' Lema's etc etc… (I will even throw myself in there just for fun)......”

Hi hugo,

i reckon this makes sense . . . however, could it not be a ‘style' thing . . . ie. someone turns up with flat clubs and swings well on a flat angle, then other people copy that . . . for no better reason than that guy was hitting it well, so lets copy that. We talked abit about this in the ‘scenious' thread at ABS. A collection of people working on ideas, etc together.

Not disputing you at all, just thinking about the trends and tendencies of different eras. We see this type of group think or meme stuff in culture all the time. Gladwell writes about it in the tipping point.

Loving the thread, BTW.

Nelson, Nicklaus and Irwin just from that group were considered ‘upright ’ swingers of the club…..but that’s only looking at the backswing.
If I haven’t convinced people that a flatter shallower entry is the best approach then I don’t know what else I can do to get the point across.

Nicklaus pic below from overhead: ... do we see the club being delivered exactly in tune with how I discuss the motion needs to be focused on.. YES….Nicklaus may have had an upright backswing but the ideals were far from that coming down… he dropped the club WELL behind him and kept the arms and club behind him, got the right arm tucked and approached from an inside path and created speed with his body rotation going from closed to open through the strike

One of the most obscene things I continually hear on golf channel and such (I heard it today on there from 3 different people throughout the day)...is the idea of getting the arms out in front on the downswing.. keeping them out and away and in front of the body…. why?..history doesn’t show this…so why do such a thing and then chop down the target line too soon and stall and flip…...
again that just shows second hand talk about something Leadbetter or Butch may have said once being misconstrued and taking on a form of it’s own .
If you look at Leadbetter’s two most famous students… Nick Price and Nick Faldo…neither of them do this…they both keep the club behind them on a shallow plane of attack and rotate through …and this is where people get confused because we hear one thing and in reality it isn’t done as such at all

To give the look a name, he Float Loads. Sergio adds wrist cock on the initial move down. It compacts the time to get things done from the mega late load to a late release. Super cool to watch and hear for sure. You can learn to do it. It's just not one of the easier things in life for most players to control.

yeah…I believe I mentioned that Guru….it worked for me but like I said you need to have all guns blazing near the strike and especially beyond… but the compression and sound and quality and feel of strike is probably as good as it gets if you are able to achieve this motion
You can only load up enough angle that you are able to handle at the strike and beyond … some of the longest & straightest drivers of the ball ever did it this way

“That was when I was 12-15 years old…..with no instruction, no golf channel, no internet and no video cameras or golf programs for reference,so I had to work it out myself and put a lot of work in….”

I think this is a pretty common thing . . . I did similar things with music . . . derro kid sitting in bedroom practicing 10-12 hours a day, sleeping with the instrument next to the bed, getting up and practicing . . . it’s pretty common.

I now teach at tertiary and post grad level, and whilst I think you can’t stop the really keen people from practicing like this, I now don’t think it’s that necessary, infact, your lucky if it works out well, so i don’t recommend it . You can concentrate it down into 2 hours, or even 20 mins if you really need to.

All sport science is pointed at efficient training . . . most players of american football work primarily upon the vertical leap and the 40 yard sprint. These two disciplines tend to be the best indicators of overall strength and fitness.

hugo, you say you used to grind 500 balls a day at the range, followed by chipping, putting and then 9/18 holes.

Do you think this has a bearing on the fact that your swing was as good as it was in your prime?<

hugo, you say you used to grind 500 balls a day at the range, followed by chipping, putting and then 9/18 holes.

Do you think this has a bearing on the fact that your swing was as good as it was in your prime?<

Sure that helped…. but like anything you only get back what you put in. The beauty of what I did was my swing got to a point where I didn't have to practice much. It was my swing based on my feelings with no outside influence so I never really had to work hard to maintain it. If my striking fell off one day I knew exactly why and could fix it immediately.
I still practiced because I liked to practice, but my sessions then become more about trajectory control…hitting the ball under branches, around branches, over trees, off pine needles.or playing holes…it wasn't about trying to find a swing. It was already there and I could work on that stuff and chipping and putting.
When I got to changing my swing I had to practice more because i had absolutely no feel for whatever it was I was doing. It was like I would wake up in an alien body each day and would have to start from scratch again. In the end I hated practicing because it was always a try to find a swing mission instead of a fun session of playing golf shots…. my chipping and putting became neglected because i was now always trying to find my swing also and the same early set and flip that crept into my swing reared it's head in my chipping and pitching and I was wasting countless shots in that area also because of it…..
I base a lot of my views from this experience and trust people will at least entertain my thoughts because of that .. I am certainly not saying swing like me… I am just saying there are a few real principles of the swing to work towards and the rest can really just fall into place by intuition and a little bit of work and understanding and patience….

Great post Brad
So Brad the rotation of the body in rhythm would square your club face as well as increace your mass at impact.?
Brad
What part do your hands play? apart from just holding the club and would u focus on where their at,and what their doing at practice and play.

The hands should get active from approx waist high coming down right into the ball and beyond….BUT…. the pivot needs to then over rule the hands from right after impact until the rest of the way.
We do this by coming in flatter/shallower keeping the shoulders in a more closed position coming down and into the ball…. then we can peel them out of the way, increasing our bodies range of motion through the strike and beyond which of course gives the pivot an opportunity to outrace the hands.
Coming down steeply gets the shoulders square to the target line too soon…the shoulders stop (which we see today in the steep or vertical shoulders at impact position) and the hands have to move the club through independently.
We can then try play catch up with the body and pivot but the damage is done. We can finish in a pretty looking follow through because of this but the ball could go in several different directions because of the stall and slap

The hands hold the club…..my hands are connected to my arms which are connected to my shoulders….so if my shoulders turn sufficiently my arms/hands should come along for the journey….. I never instinctively tried to use my hands much….pretty much cut them out of most of the swing….but knew how to use them to save a shot that didn’t quite feel right coming into the ball…. that’s educated hands.. not using them all the time but being able to use them to make a recovery for a swing that feels slightly off the mark.

The hands should get active from approx waist high coming down right into the ball and beyond….BUT…. the pivot needs to then over rule the hands from right after impact until the rest of the way.
We do this by coming in flatter/shallower keeping the shoulders in a more closed position coming down and into the ball…. then we can peel them out of the way, increasing our bodies range of motion through the strike and beyond which of course gives the pivot an opportunity to outrace the hands.
Coming down steeply gets the shoulders square to the target line too soon…the shoulders stop (which we see today in the steep or vertical shoulders at impact position) and the hands have to move the club through independently.
We can then try play catch up with the body and pivot but the damage is done. We can finish in a pretty looking follow through because of this but the ball could go in several different directions because of the stall and slap

Thx for your answer.
Brad when your shoulders are in that closed position is your intension to hit out to right field as well as to hit down.
If not,what is it?sry i read that again and you have answered my queastion.

Opposing forces again…the sensation is you will be aiming for right field but your pivot rotation and hand speed brings the club squarely into the back of the ball and you rotate out post impact on the same semi circle arc you approached on.
The club normally throws off to right field when you stall and flip…(sometimes flips around way left too depending on the amount of stall and flip and independent hand action occurring)
pic below
Gay Brewer (turning nicely)...unknown PGA player (flipping like crazy)

“educated hands” are those who are doing what GB shows in the pic. They are part and parcel of the entire body’s motion.

The unknown PGA player has “uneducated hands” that are Quitting and Steering as victims of what came before impact to keep the ball on the fairway. Some call that ‘feel’ others would call that luck. Some high level players have created swings with a lot of luck – which deserts them when the pressure gets heaped on. The more pressure the likely flip happens through impact and the ball is not where you want it.

Brad, great posts and thanks for all the insight so far.

With your students when you are trying to teach lag do you think they should consciously try and create lag in their swing or should it come about naturally from doing everything else right?

hugo, the reason i ask about the 500 balls is because it resonates with my own experience.

As a junior i got picked for a team about ten days before the match. For the week ahead of the match i practiced every day, in my case with just an 8 iron, hitting a shag bag with 20 balls in it up and down our practice fairway (which was only big enough to hit an 8 iron on!). Like you, it was a matter of pride to have 20 balls in the bag at the end. I would normally do 5 sets of 20, take a bite then do the same again or go play a few.

I was playing off 7 at that stage and was a real average golfer. The night of the match (late 80s/Early 90s) i didn’t miss a shot, everything was perfect. I should have been nervous but i totally trusted my swing and won 6&5 and for the 13 holes i was 2 under par. Now that was better than my previous best by around 5 shots.

So what is the lesson from all of this? For me it is that, all of the greats ground balls right up to and including the best modern players. Perhaps it is that which is most important because what becomes clearer and clearer to me is that there are no short cuts in this beautiful game we love to play.

Ironically the one pro i know who hates to practice is monty and he is as upright as they come!

Brad, what do you think of say the HG doctrine with regards to their clubfit and clubs. Longer shafts, more upright lie angles because of the length and very heavy swingweights ? Would this be a better fit for a flatter swingplane ?
Jon…

Golfguy33
Hi can i give you a senario,what would you do if you come across a tall golfer low marker, that has standard or flat lie angle,or a short player low marker, who has an upright lie angle.
How would you go about fitting them to clubs.
would you send them to spend time with their respective coaches, to get the tall player more upright and the short player more flatter or would you fit them to there swing.
You are a fitter so your the best man to ask this question.
but i would like members thought on it as well.
cheers going to bed and i'm looking forward to the answers.

Question, does the tall player have long, short or normal arm lengths for his/her body proportion and vice versa for the shorter player ?
Because of the individuality that is found in the swinging a golfclub, every player should be treated independantly.
Dynamically fitting any person is the only way to look at getting the best results.
The fundamentals never change but the way they are adapted by each person is the main difference in how they get from A to B.
If I were to set up a 5 iron for you that was 6/7 degrees more upright than your usual spec, what do you think the result would be ?
Conversely with a 6/7 degree flatter lie than your normal, do you think in either senario that your eyes and brain could get your muscles to accommodate those radical changes ?
Jon…

I have never seen anyone get a fitting with HG…. I do however have a friend of mine who played on tour and used HG clubs at one point and was set up for them etc….. he was using clubs that were 6 upright?? Not sure why because he wasn’t that tall and never had an over the top move

What I prefer to do is watch a student hit balls during a lesson. Then we can gauge what we deem is necessary to improve. 99 times out of 100 these students swing too steep and down the line and lift and raise and hit the ball left or right or left to farther left or left to peeling right..right to snapping left and right to farther right…with a few straight ones thrown in…..... so their shot dispersion is horrendous because they don’t have any clue where the ball will go if it doesn’t go straight, so they have no go to shot to play with
It is obvious that by toning down the action of the right arm and keeping it closer to the body when coming into impact and thru impact we can hit the ball straighter because it helps prevent the club from moving around and throwing off the correct path and helps eliminates clubface closure or opening. This goes along with having a flatter club angle to help assist this.
So I ask them to get at least one club set up properly along my guidelines to practice with that is flattened down a little and a little heavier and more along a blade style with the mass behind the ball …maybe 2 or 3 degrees flatter than what they are currently using to start with… this is to allow them to learn more…. visually you will start to swing a club set up that way more around yourself and you start working towards a better path for all the reasons stated.
After a few weeks they come back and are surprised at how their striking has actually improved and their ball dispersion isn’t as severely off the charts in all directions because they are keeping the club more under control and not having to throw their arms at impact to get the upright angle to flatten out..
So they realize what is happening and they ask me themselves to set up their entire set of clubs similar to that…...we then adjust their practice club a little more and the same thing happens…that gets better and they want to then adjust their set down again to match…the shots start to stay closer to their target and they learn to like the flatter setup and continually adjust towards even greater improvement.
Cast clubs can hardly be bent without snapping the head off so what you buy you are pretty much stuck with
This is also another reason why I ask people to buy old stuff… it’s cheap.. because no-one thinks it is any good so they just dump it off… so now we have cheap clubs that are normally forged and not cast and can easily be bent on a loft lie machine.
We groom and work and understand what is going on and receive feedback…. and we eventually get to a club setting that is more predictable and easier to keep under control We can monitor and alter and everyone of them end up with flatter clubs than they ever imagined because they gradually work into it and aren’t stuck with a set that is fitted to their ungainly action that isn’t giving them improvement or control.
Some may be a lot flat, some a little flat and some closer to normal or standard…but they realize by the results that upright is not helping them because it was used to hide a flaw and not head them down a better path.

I set up a club to how we want them to swing in the future….NOT…how they are swinging right now at the fitting.. HUGE difference

Brad, great posts and thanks for all the insight so far.

With your students when you are trying to teach lag do you think they should consciously try and create lag in their swing or should it come about naturally from doing everything else right?

I see lag being created by not forcing the club down but by feeling a passive transition (a la the gavity drop)... where the club stays up and is not being pulled down…. pulling reduces the lag angle between your left arm and the shaft that you create… this is why I suggest a heavier club so you can feel where the head is and it also promotes bottom half/footwork to initiate the drop down instead of using your hands
You can only create as much lag as you can handle at impact so don’t go overboard on it…. Sergio, Hogan create a lot of lag but know how to get rid of it later in the swing and transition with a slightly different feel and process to achieve this…. and that’s why feelings can be different and the look of a swing can be different because of different intentions based on that person’s capabilities and why we should never really try match a picture of someone’s swing to our own… we all have different capabilities based on our leg, wrist and hand strength, forearm rotation skills and such. We can always strive for more but can’t rush these things….

Golfguy33
Hi can i give you a senario,what would you do if you come across a tall golfer low marker, that has standard or flat lie angle,or a short player low marker, who has an upright lie angle.
How would you go about fitting them to clubs.
would you send them to spend time with their respective coaches, to get the tall player more upright and the short player more flatter or would you fit them to there swing.
You are a fitter so your the best man to ask this question.
but i would like members thought on it as well.
cheers going to bed and i'm looking forward to the answers.

Question, does the tall player have long, short or normal arm lengths for his/her body proportion and vice versa for the shorter player ?
Because of the individuality that is found in the swinging a golfclub, every player should be treated independantly.
Dynamically fitting any person is the only way to look at getting the best results.
The fundamentals never change but the way they are adapted by each person is the main difference in how they get from A to B.
If I were to set up a 5 iron for you that was 6/7 degrees more upright than your usual spec, what do you think the result would be ?
Conversely with a 6/7 degree flatter lie than your normal, do you think in either senario that your eyes and brain could get your muscles to accommodate those radical changes ?
Jon…

golfguy

Measuring the length of the players arms was used by ping not sure if it is still used now,thats where HG came on the scene the introduced heads that could be bent up to 6 degrees upright or flat,they also were one of the first to fit people dynamically.
I cant see that the arm length is signifcant when your dynamic fitting, and have achieved his lie angle on a lie board, the mark on the sole will give you his reading,unless he torqes the club through impact.
Can you answer my original question please.?
I read in one of the threads, that a good fitter will fit you for your swing in the future,i think may have been zen who said it.
Do you fit according to what zen said?
If so how do you? What swing do you think a 20 hcp going to have, or build in the future.
what are your guideline,if you give him a club thats to upright he will have to swing it upright to get a result.
if you give him a club thats to flat, same applies.
What im getting at here is you a building a club that will dictate to him how he should swing it.
As i see it your a very important guy in the golf industrie,your fit can make or break a player.
and i suggest, and mind you its only my opinion most of you are breaking players,especially the get them through the gates one after the other fitters.
i pose u another question as well can you please answer.
eg your fitting a player who consistantly is marking the leading edge of his club which is a false reading, comon to players that roll and throw their hands through impact commonly know as torqing the club,do you know the reason they do this.?

If most fitters could gather enough educated golfers to have them going through the gates, life would be interesting.

We appear to have established that OEM standard specs don’t suit most people. This thread proports players would be better off with older style flatter lies. Most fitters will fit ball flight and or dynamic fits being done on OEM fixes.

Devils advocate here. Most higher handicappers are so all over the shop that a lie angle thats say 1 degree out will be overpowered by a 5 degree face differential shot to shot. It would appear only when the 5 degrees is down to a couple that the more consistent miss could be “lied” out in conjunction with training. So the fitter and pro are still both part of helping rather than hindering the player, via swing changes that require lie maintenance.

If most fitters could gather enough educated golfers to have them going through the gates, life would be interesting.

We appear to have established that OEM standard specs don't suit most people. This thread proports players would be better off with older style flatter lies. Most fitters will fit ball flight and or dynamic fits being done on OEM fixes.

Devils advocate here. Most higher handicappers are so all over the shop that a lie angle thats say 1 degree out will be overpowered by a 5 degree face differential shot to shot. It would appear only when the 5 degrees is down to a couple that the more consistent miss could be “lied” out in conjunction with training. So the fitter and pro are still both part of helping rather than hindering the player, via swing changes that require lie maintenance.

Guru
I have seen golfers getting fitted in a one hour session, one after the other,with no coach present, my advice to any one wanting to be fitted is this.
Make sure your coach is their,or forget about it till he can be their,their are lots of money hungry fitters out their that can ruin you and you pocket.

true guru ^

the guy i use says to me that he has to send people away all the time. they come for a club fitting and he just says straight out that he can’t fit them until they come back with a swing that is a little better or at least repeatable

i still think that fitting them to the swing they “want” should be more a focus than fitting them to whatever it is they are doing now

It would be hard also when fitting guys (or ladies) that only play once a week and are happy to do so. They don’t have the time or aren’t interested in improving their swing, therefore trying to fit clubs to their current swing might help? Or making their lies flatter than what they need may make them naturally get in better positions?

It is a hard one to work out, with some pros fitting them anyway to make some money and as Ingy said some just won’t fit them at all.

Exactly. It’s a joint operation of present and future goals of the player.

If golfers want to give themselves every opportunity then consider all options and not just be pointed into a corner and be told what is best for you.. you should now understand a bit more about options available such as mass behind the ball, heavier heads, shorter shafts, flatter lies and getting feedback from the club and how these choices can help your swing long term .....or you can go with lighter upright perimeter weighted shovels with soles the size of Texas and take your chances…. you can make the call but make it your decision… don’t be a sheep getting herded into the cattle yard.

If the golfer wants to just play a social round here and there and not care about his game or getting better then use a stick with a tin can on the end of it….because it will be pointless getting fitted for a club anyhow, just buy any old thing you want and don’t waste the $$$

Brad
You said that you wont teach something you cant do your self.
You have just come off the tour,so your in reasonable nik.
Are you saying that if a coach can’t do or demonstrate to his pupil what he wants him to do, should not be coaching.
If you cant see your self,how do you know you are doing it,unless you have someone else watching you,and does that mean he also has to be able to do it.
I learnt verbaly, i cant learn a thing from demonstration, all that teaches me that the pro can do it.
i would rather i guy tell me what i need to do, even though he cant do it, and its correct information,than to sit there and watch a guy who can do it.
Mind you i gree with a hell of alot of things you have said. i can explane to you what i want you to do, i can watch that you do it,and i can tell you where your going wrong,but if you only want a demo go look at videos.
I think i give teaching away because i could never do what i teach lol.

No…. a coach in anything needs to put things to the test in real life and not just take things as gospel. If you can do it then you have a better understanding of it.
We would never have a freestyle swimming lesson from someone who can only do the butterfly.
We wouldn’t get a suit fitted and made by a shoe shinerr who has seen many suits up close but never tailored one
Would you employ the guy that has only built homes 25 square and under to build a 40 storey building for you
Would the Melbourne Tigers basketball team select a coach who read basketball for dummies or watched the playoffs for a few years running

brad
what are you going to do when your 75 and can no longer do it. i guess the fact that you once could do makes you a great coach.
So what your examples mean that unless you have been run over by a truck, you cant teach some one how to look left then right befor they cross the road.
Going to weed my vegie patch be back latter.

Bendoon…. all you are doing now is shit stirring and trying to start an argument. I guess this is what the term “troll” means. Take it somewhere else unless you have something constructive to say.

OK…I’ve done enough question answering for awhile… how about someone else answer a few questions

Do you believe just about everything I have mentioned is true and factual when looking in with an open mind and no pre conceived ideas based on what you’ve been told…only what you know from your own experiences?

Would you be willing to test out anything I have said that you are up in the air about?

Would you change your view of that belief if it worked for you?

Do you believe we need feel in our hands and body?

Do you believe you would have greater feel with a heavier club or a lighter club?

Do you believe better results would come from pressuring the club onto plane through impact and beyond or pressuring it down on plane from the top of the backswing and letting it go all over the place into impact and beyond?

Do you believe in opposing forces and that one action leads to another and another and at some point we can’t just keep using created forces and we have to fight a force to bring about the correct feel and motion in the correct areas for power and control?

Can anyone tell me where all the straight lines are in golf that we all hear about so often? The swing is an oval, the ball is a circle and the flight is an arc…where’s the straight?

Why do teachers worry so much about the grip or alignment when the student doesn’t have an impact in place to be able to use these tools to affect?

Why so much fuss about the backswing when we see players such as Furyk, Garcia, Moe Norman, Doug Sanders, Ray Floyd, Hubert Green, Johnny Miller go basically anywhere they want going back?

Why would our wedge weigh for eg 16 oz and 8 iron 15.75oz and 6 iron 15.5oz and a 4 iron 15.25oz and the a modern driver would weigh 11 or 12 oz?... doesn’t that eliminate the feel of the swing throughout the bag by having our longest club so much lighter overall?

Why should we hit up on a driver when every other club we are told to hit down and thru on?

If we need ground pressures and lower body support for the motion to rotate around why do people straight leg at impact nowadays and lose support with the turf in the process?

If the right arm straightening into impact definitely throws the club off course and away from our body and causes face closure, why is it permissible in today’s instruction?

Do you believe the steeper the club comes into impact the more opportunity there is for the face to not be square striking the ball and the more hand action would have to take place for corrections?

Do you believe that the longer the shaft is the harder it is to control and get back squarely on the ball?

Do you believe swinging from around your body into the ball instinctively gives the body the OK to turn around through the ball to a finish and the hands do less manipulation?

can we argue when the 3 premier recognized ball strikers of history Hogan, Trevino and Moe Norman all used flat equipment?

Do you believe mass provides just as much benefit as speed for distance but much more control for accuracy?

Can we say with conviction that a club fitter can guess what;s correct for us based on about 20 swings with a few clubs with tape on the bottom?

Why do we get fitted for drivers based on launch monitors that only consider distance and launch and spin rate when in reality we probably only try hit a drive for optimal launch and spin and distance once or twice a round?

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

When I show pics of Hogan, Trevino, Player, Nelson, etc etc with bent right arms at impact and limited or no clubface roll post impact and the club staying on a true plane through that area… then I show Mickelson, Tiger, Els and other with straight right arms at impact and full clubface closure post impact… who will hit the ball with more precision and control?

Who would say I learned all this from a book?

Who would say I learned it from my own experience and testing these ideas under the heat of battle to conclude which ideas are more efficient?

OK…I've done enough question answering for awhile… how about someone else answer a few questions

Do you believe just about everything I have mentioned is true and factual when looking in with an open mind and no pre conceived ideas based on what you've been told…only what you know from your own experiences?

Would you be willing to test out anything I have said that you are up in the air about?

Would you change your view of that belief if it worked for you?

Do you believe we need feel in our hands and body?

Do you believe you would have greater feel with a heavier club or a lighter club?

Do you believe better results would come from pressuring the club onto plane through impact and beyond or pressuring it down on plane from the top of the backswing and letting it go all over the place into impact and beyond?

Do you believe in opposing forces and that one action leads to another and another and at some point we can't just keep using created forces and we have to fight a force to bring about the correct feel and motion in the correct areas for power and control?

Can anyone tell me where all the straight lines are in golf that we all hear about so often? The swing is an oval, the ball is a circle and the flight is an arc…where's the straight?

Why do teachers worry so much about the grip or alignment when the student doesn't have an impact in place to be able to use these tools to affect?

Why so much fuss about the backswing when we see players such as Furyk, Garcia, Moe Norman, Doug Sanders, Ray Floyd, Hubert Green, Johnny Miller go basically anywhere they want going back?

Why would our wedge weigh for eg 16 oz and 8 iron 15.75oz and 6 iron 15.5oz and a 4 iron 15.25oz and the a modern driver would weigh 11 or 12 oz?... doesn't that eliminate the feel of the swing throughout the bag by having our longest club so much lighter overall?

Why should we hit up on a driver when every other club we are told to hit down and thru on?

If we need ground pressures and lower body support for the motion to rotate around why do people straight leg at impact nowadays and lose support with the turf in the process?

If the right arm straightening into impact definitely throws the club off course and away from our body and causes face closure, why is it permissible in today's instruction?

Do you believe the steeper the club comes into impact the more opportunity there is for the face to not be square striking the ball and the more hand action would have to take place for corrections?

Do you believe that the longer the shaft is the harder it is to control and get back squarely on the ball?

Do you believe swinging from around into the ball instinctively gives the body the OK to turn around through the ball to a finish and the hands do less manipulation?

Do you believe mass provides just as much benefit as speed for distance but much more control for accuracy?

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

When I show pics of Hogan, Trevino, Player, Nelson, etc etc with bent right arms at impact and limited or no clubface roll post impact and the club staying on a true plane through that area… then I show Mickelson, Tiger, Els and other with straight right arms at impact and full clubface closure post impact… who will hit the ball with more precision and control?

Who would say I learned all this from a book?

Who would say I learned it from my own experience and testing these ideas under the heat of battle to conclude which ideas are more efficient?

Brad
as i said befor i say yes to just about all of it. eqiuptment wise especially,the heavier the club the greater the feel
but there are many ways.

I am believing what you say Brad, going to get my Titleist 690 cb’s checked next week.

Wish you were back at Rossdale so I could come and see you!

HTK
brad gave exaples so did i not shit stirring at all,now i am are you his lawyer

I teach many ways…. I don’t teach one way

I teach the important stuff from hip high into impact to hip high post impact and give the individual a lot of freedom in many areas of the swing to do what they like or feel best doing to get to into and through that hip high area correctly….isn’t that many ways as you would say?

My main point is all the BS we hear about so many swing fads basing their belief and findings on Hogan’s swing or Moe Norman’s swing and then they teach something entirely different to what these guys did because they focus on the wrong parts of the action and people buy into it….

Hugo was there any stats kept on these guys??? I hear all great things about these men but I don’t think I have seen any numbers

Brad

Impact is everthing, as long as you get there and hit that little ball in the sweet spot with acceleration (via lag) along the intended line you have a golf swing. I happen to get to the happy spot via feeling, not all the time mind you.

Stands to reason heavier swingweights are better provided you can acheive the above. eg a Sledge hammer will knock a nail in quicker than a hammer and quicker tha s tack hammer (modern clubs) Just a matter of control.

From a previous post to you -

Attended Aussie Masters many times, the best ball striker I have ever seen was Bernhard Langer in a 2 hrs range session. Man could he shape and flight a ball. It was at that point even though playing off 1 I realised I needed to get a real job, I would have been a very poor pro.

Care to comment on his action?

I teach many ways…. I don't teach one way

I teach the important stuff from hip high into impact to hip high post impact and give the individual a lot of freedom in many areas of the swing to do what they like or feel best doing to get to into and through that hip high area correctly….isn't that many ways as you would say?

My main point is all the BS we hear about so many swing fads basing their belief and findings on Hogan's swing or Moe Norman's swing and then they teach something entirely different to what these guys did because they focus on the wrong parts of the action and people buy into it….

I dont buy it and never did,a lot that you have said is correct in my view,and theres a lot of good intruction in TGM but the problem with TGM is its not negotiable. i love TGM, a lot of it i have taught over the years, it has been usefull but i have my own ideas as well.
that conflict with its teachings.
Do i care? “no” i do what i think is right for the pupil and i wont hesitate to use my methods.

I know this is a TGM forum, your introduction really is great,it would be very boring to log on and get answers staight out of the book word for word.
The people on this site should say what they really think and not what they think guru or dart or anyone else expects them to say

Brad

Impact is everthing, as long as you get there and hit that little ball in the sweet spot with acceleration (via lag) along the intended line you have a golf swing. I happen to get to the happy spot via feeling, not all the time mind you.

Stands to reason heavier swingweights are better provided you can acheive the above. eg a Sledge hammer will knock a nail in quicker than a hammer and quicker tha s tack hammer (modern clubs) Just a matter of control.

From a previous post to you -

Attended Aussie Masters many times, the best ball striker I have ever seen was Bernhard Langer in a 2 hrs range session. Man could he shape and flight a ball. It was at that point even though playing off 1 I realised I needed to get a real job, I would have been a very poor pro.

Care to comment on his action?

Shanks
Give me mass anyday you can only swing so fast,but u can learn to add lots of mass in your swing.
eg i was at a tourny once and a pupil said to his coach i have lost a hell of distance with wat we have been woorking on.
his coach said you get it back as u learn to swing it faster.
ty gary edwin

OK…I've done enough question answering for awhile… how about someone else answer a few questions

Do you believe just about everything I have mentioned is true and factual when looking in with an open mind and no pre conceived ideas based on what you've been told…only what you know from your own experiences?

Would you be willing to test out anything I have said that you are up in the air about?

Would you change your view of that belief if it worked for you?

Do you believe we need feel in our hands and body?

Do you believe you would have greater feel with a heavier club or a lighter club?

Do you believe better results would come from pressuring the club onto plane through impact and beyond or pressuring it down on plane from the top of the backswing and letting it go all over the place into impact and beyond?

Do you believe in opposing forces and that one action leads to another and another and at some point we can't just keep using created forces and we have to fight a force to bring about the correct feel and motion in the correct areas for power and control?

Can anyone tell me where all the straight lines are in golf that we all hear about so often? The swing is an oval, the ball is a circle and the flight is an arc…where's the straight?

Why do teachers worry so much about the grip or alignment when the student doesn't have an impact in place to be able to use these tools to affect?

Why so much fuss about the backswing when we see players such as Furyk, Garcia, Moe Norman, Doug Sanders, Ray Floyd, Hubert Green, Johnny Miller go basically anywhere they want going back?

Why would our wedge weigh for eg 16 oz and 8 iron 15.75oz and 6 iron 15.5oz and a 4 iron 15.25oz and the a modern driver would weigh 11 or 12 oz?... doesn't that eliminate the feel of the swing throughout the bag by having our longest club so much lighter overall?

Why should we hit up on a driver when every other club we are told to hit down and thru on?

If we need ground pressures and lower body support for the motion to rotate around why do people straight leg at impact nowadays and lose support with the turf in the process?

If the right arm straightening into impact definitely throws the club off course and away from our body and causes face closure, why is it permissible in today's instruction?

Do you believe the steeper the club comes into impact the more opportunity there is for the face to not be square striking the ball and the more hand action would have to take place for corrections?

Do you believe that the longer the shaft is the harder it is to control and get back squarely on the ball?

Do you believe swinging from around your body into the ball instinctively gives the body the OK to turn around through the ball to a finish and the hands do less manipulation?

can we argue when the 3 premier recognized ball strikers of history Hogan, Trevino and Moe Norman all used flat equipment?

Do you believe mass provides just as much benefit as speed for distance but much more control for accuracy?

Can we say with conviction that a club fitter can guess what;s correct for us based on about 20 swings with a few clubs with tape on the bottom?

Why do we get fitted for drivers based on launch monitors that only consider distance and launch and spin rate when in reality we probably only try hit a drive for optimal launch and spin and distance once or twice a round?

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

When I show pics of Hogan, Trevino, Player, Nelson, etc etc with bent right arms at impact and limited or no clubface roll post impact and the club staying on a true plane through that area… then I show Mickelson, Tiger, Els and other with straight right arms at impact and full clubface closure post impact… who will hit the ball with more precision and control?

Who would say I learned all this from a book?

Who would say I learned it from my own experience and testing these ideas under the heat of battle to conclude which ideas are more efficient?

Brad
You have answered heaps of questions for the forum members.
I just hope that they have the courtesy to answer your question one way or the other.

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

I would trade 10% of accuracy for 25-50 metres of extra distance.

brad
what are you going to do when your 75 and can no longer do it. i guess the fact that you once could do makes you a great coach.
So what your examples mean that unless you have been run over by a truck, you cant teach some one how to look left then right befor they cross the road.
Going to weed my vegie patch be back latter.

Bendoon sorry mate, shouldn’t of attacked you like that. It w3as this post I was referring too. I saw a thread similar to this onhere a while ago about the merits of teaching pro’s. Some are of the opinion that you had to be able to play at a high level to be any good at teaching while others believe playing ability has nothing to do with it, knowledge of swing mechanics is more important.
I read your post and thought you were trying to stir up the debate. I pobably sit somewhere in between. I know some former players who teach and are not too succesful where as some of the most succesful coaches have no playing record at all. One of the best lessons I ever had was from a guy about 5 or 6 years ago in Melton from a guy named Andrew ?.. He had no playing background and had never been through the PGA sytem. Just teaches and does it well.
Sorry for having a crack at you mate, I’ll make sure I think before I post again.

OK…

Who would say I learned all this from a book?

Much like the way I learned to ride a bike…NOT!

Do you believe you would have greater feel with a heavier club or a lighter club?

Do you believe better results would come from pressuring the club onto plane through impact and beyond or pressuring it down on plane from the top of the backswing and letting it go all over the place into impact and beyond??

Do you believe mass provides just as much benefit as speed for distance but much more control for accuracy?

I am a massive convert to this, it is something I hadn’t given much thought to before but it makes 100% sense.

Do you believe just about everything I have mentioned is true and factual when looking in with an open mind and no pre conceived ideas based on what you've been told…only what you know from your own experiences?

Much of it makes sense to me, though I still question the lie angles for everyone, especially if you based your swing on G Norman and he is 2* upright?

Would you be willing to test out anything I have said that you are up in the air about?

Absolutely

Would you change your view of that belief if it worked for you?

Yes

Do you believe we need feel in our hands and body?

Yes

Do you believe you would have greater feel with a heavier club or a lighter club?

This is relative, would be reliant on the strength and feel of the individual, I would er on the side of heavier that that may be ever so slight. Too heavy is as bad as too light IMHO

Do you believe better results would come from pressuring the club onto plane through impact and beyond or pressuring it down on plane from the top of the backswing and letting it go all over the place into impact and beyond?

Beyond my knowledge at the mo,

Do you believe in opposing forces and that one action leads to another and another and at some point we can't just keep using created forces and we have to fight a force to bring about the correct feel and motion in the correct areas for power and control?

That’s many Q’s in one,

Can anyone tell me where all the straight lines are in golf that we all hear about so often? The swing is an oval, the ball is a circle and the flight is an arc…where's the straight?

I know of no straight. What straight lines are you talking of? I see some draw lines on pictures, even you do that, is that what you mean?

Why do teachers worry so much about the grip or alignment when the student doesn't have an impact in place to be able to use these tools to affect?

I don’t go to those teachers.

Why so much fuss about the backswing when we see players such as Furyk, Garcia, Moe Norman, Doug Sanders, Ray Floyd, Hubert Green, Johnny Miller go basically anywhere they want going back?

Take the club back how you like I say.

Why would our wedge weigh for eg 16 oz and 8 iron 15.75oz and 6 iron 15.5oz and a 4 iron 15.25oz and the a modern driver would weigh 11 or 12 oz?... doesn't that eliminate the feel of the swing throughout the bag by having our longest club so much lighter overall?

Beyond me.

Why should we hit up on a driver when every other club we are told to hit down and thru on?

Don’t know

If we need ground pressures and lower body support for the motion to rotate around why do people straight leg at impact nowadays and lose support with the turf in the process?

Bad movement patterns?

If the right arm straightening into impact definitely throws the club off course and away from our body and causes face closure, why is it permissible in today's instruction?

That’s a rhetorical question isn’t it?

Do you believe the steeper the club comes into impact the more opportunity there is for the face to not be square striking the ball and the more hand action would have to take place for corrections?

Have to think on that.

Do you believe that the longer the shaft is the harder it is to control and get back squarely on the ball?

Yes

Do you believe swinging from around your body into the ball instinctively gives the body the OK to turn around through the ball to a finish and the hands do less manipulation?

Yes

can we argue when the 3 premier recognized ball strikers of history Hogan, Trevino and Moe Norman all used flat equipment?

Yes, why not? I’m different, for a start I’m 6’2”

Do you believe mass provides just as much benefit as speed for distance but much more control for accuracy?

Jury out on that for me. There must be a balance?

Can we say with conviction that a club fitter can guess what;s correct for us based on about 20 swings with a few clubs with tape on the bottom?

Depends on how good they are. Can I trust you knowing my swing after 20 goes?

Why do we get fitted for drivers based on launch monitors that only consider distance and launch and spin rate when in reality we probably only try hit a drive for optimal launch and spin and distance once or twice a round?

This is silly.

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

Me

When I show pics of Hogan, Trevino, Player, Nelson, etc etc with bent right arms at impact and limited or no clubface roll post impact and the club staying on a true plane through that area… then I show Mickelson, Tiger, Els and other with straight right arms at impact and full clubface closure post impact… who will hit the ball with more precision and control?

The oldies.

Who would say I learned all this from a book?

Is it in a book?

Who would say I learned it from my own experience and testing these ideas under the heat of battle to conclude which ideas are more efficient?

You discovered these ideas to be true for you through experience I guess.

Hope someone who knows more answers them all too, I’m a beginner.

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

I would trade 10% of accuracy for 25-50 metres of extra distance.

Danz
you have turned yards into percentages lol
Answer the question he said 10 yards of a distance not 10%accuracy comon man. lol

brad
what are you going to do when your 75 and can no longer do it. i guess the fact that you once could do makes you a great coach.
So what your examples mean that unless you have been run over by a truck, you cant teach some one how to look left then right befor they cross the road.
Going to weed my vegie patch be back latter.

Bendoon sorry mate, shouldn't of attacked you like that. It w3as this post I was referring too. I saw a thread similar to this onhere a while ago about the merits of teaching pro's. Some are of the opinion that you had to be able to play at a high level to be any good at teaching while others believe playing ability has nothing to do with it, knowledge of swing mechanics is more important.
I read your post and thought you were trying to stir up the debate. I pobably sit somewhere in between. I know some former players who teach and are not too succesful where as some of the most succesful coaches have no playing record at all. One of the best lessons I ever had was from a guy about 5 or 6 years ago in Melton from a guy named Andrew ?.. He had no playing background and had never been through the PGA sytem. Just teaches and does it well.
Sorry for having a crack at you mate, I'll make sure I think before I post again.

It's easy to grin / When your ship comes in / And you've got the stock market beat. / But the man worthwhile, / Is the man who can smile, / When his shorts are too tight in the seat.

Htk
Dont worry about it i do same thing some times on here then look and say to myself wtf i say that for lol

Who would trade 10 yards of distance for 25-50% more accuracy?

I would trade 10% of accuracy for 25-50 metres of extra distance.

Danz
you have turned yards into percentages lol
Answer the question he said 10 yards of a distance not 10%accuracy comon man. lol

Methinks Danz did that on purpose : ) and I agree. Well maybe 5% of accuracy for 30 metres of distance would be good.

As for all the questions, shit too many of them, but yes agree with most of what you say Brad hence I use a 20yo set of blades, set flat and I accept the odd clunk and stinging fingers in the winter : )

The bit I really like is the “less club face rotation through impact”. I suffer from the hooks sometimes due to the stiff leg roll over you describe. I now have some hope I can get rid of the “fore left” : )

All of this reminds me of an interesting little situation that happened a couple of months ago. There were a couple of us in the proshop before Pennants one day and one bloke was behind me watching me hit balls into the net.
He mentioned that at address the toe of my club was poking right up, I said I don’t I ever catch the heel of the club in my swing. My sticks are 7 years old (Maxfli A10 Tours – standard lie and length) and I’d never had them fitted.

I am off 7 and have been for the last 5 or so years and only play in the Saturday comp, at the moment I haven’t the time to practice so I reckon this is where I will stay for a while unless something changes, I no longer have visions of grandure just to win the occasional Div 1 Pennants match.

Back to the story, the Pro in the shop said most people lift their hands at impact, at the time I didn’t give it any thought if it was good, bad or indifferent. We taped up my club and hit the board and my impact was through the correct spot on the sole of the club. So thinking more about it now, my swing is based on my clubs being what they are and I wonder if I were to have them flattened, would I be able to get my swing to work better with that??

All of this reminds me of an interesting little situation that happened a couple of months ago. There were a couple of us in the proshop before Pennants one day and one bloke was behind me watching me hit balls into the net.
He mentioned that at address the toe of my club was poking right up, I said I don't I ever catch the heel of the club in my swing. My sticks are 7 years old (Maxfli A10 Tours – standard lie and length) and I'd never had them fitted.

I am off 7 and have been for the last 5 or so years and only play in the Saturday comp, at the moment I haven't the time to practice so I reckon this is where I will stay for a while unless something changes, I no longer have visions of grandure just to win the occasional Div 1 Pennants match.

Back to the story, the Pro in the shop said most people lift their hands at impact, at the time I didn't give it any thought if it was good, bad or indifferent. We taped up my club and hit the board and my impact was through the correct spot on the sole of the club. So thinking more about it now, my swing is based on my clubs being what they are and I wonder if I were to have them flattened, would I be able to get my swing to work better with that??

Bump

You have swung to suit your clubs and done a good job of it, if u flatten your lie angles now, you wont hit it as well for awhile,but as you adjusted to the upright lie angles, you will adjust to the flatter lies, are you prepared to go through all that again, it will mean swing changes. its up to you

Methinks Danz did that on purpose : ) and I agree.

Spot on 2putts.

Brad’s questions were more rhetorical anyway.

I think I had sort of answered my question when I went back and typed the part about my handicap….

Thank you for your input too mate, all the different minds really make some interesting things to think about, especially with the calibire of golfers we have commenting

Methinks Danz did that on purpose : ) and I agree.

Spot on 2putts.

Brad's questions were more rhetorical anyway.

Definitely were, thanks for finding the word, rhetorical, it had escaped me, that’s what I meant to use, not hypothetical, bugger it I’ll edit it : )

brad
what are you going to do when your 75 and can no longer do it. i guess the fact that you once could do makes you a great coach.
So what your examples mean that unless you have been run over by a truck, you cant teach some one how to look left then right befor they cross the road.
Going to weed my vegie patch be back latter.

Bendoon sorry mate, shouldn't of attacked you like that. It w3as this post I was referring too. I saw a thread similar to this onhere a while ago about the merits of teaching pro's. Some are of the opinion that you had to be able to play at a high level to be any good at teaching while others believe playing ability has nothing to do with it, knowledge of swing mechanics is more important.
I read your post and thought you were trying to stir up the debate. I pobably sit somewhere in between. I know some former players who teach and are not too succesful where as some of the most succesful coaches have no playing record at all. One of the best lessons I ever had was from a guy about 5 or 6 years ago in Melton from a guy named Andrew ?.. He had no playing background and had never been through the PGA sytem. Just teaches and does it well.
Sorry for having a crack at you mate, I'll make sure I think before I post again.

It's easy to grin / When your ship comes in / And you've got the stock market beat. / But the man worthwhile, / Is the man who can smile, / When his shorts are too tight in the seat.

Htkmw
Andrew Cartledge, he’s an ATGF coach he has his masters degree with them in coaching. Andrew was one of the best amateurs around and won quite a lot of events up against some of the Australian greats on tour now. Brad may even know of Andrew around the same era. Andrew had the best short game I’ve seen.

He’s an awesome coach and now coaching in Inner city golf at Ballarat golf range. He’s all about dynamics with his coaching, he’d be up there as one of the best in Australia. Amazing with juniors produced alot of states players which got poached from him.

Brad, great posts and thanks for all the insight so far.

With your students when you are trying to teach lag do you think they should consciously try and create lag in their swing or should it come about naturally from doing everything else right?

I see lag being created by not forcing the club down but by feeling a passive transition (a la the gavity drop)... where the club stays up and is not being pulled down…. pulling reduces the lag angle between your left arm and the shaft that you create… this is why I suggest a heavier club so you can feel where the head is and it also promotes bottom half/footwork to initiate the drop down instead of using your hands
You can only create as much lag as you can handle at impact so don't go overboard on it…. Sergio, Hogan create a lot of lag but know how to get rid of it later in the swing and transition with a slightly different feel and process to achieve this…. and that's why feelings can be different and the look of a swing can be different because of different intentions based on that person's capabilities and why we should never really try match a picture of someone's swing to our own… we all have different capabilities based on our leg, wrist and hand strength, forearm rotation skills and such. We can always strive for more but can't rush these things….

Thanks mate, that gives me a pretty good idea. I will keep plugging away at it. Thanks for the help!

All of this reminds me of an interesting little situation that happened a couple of months ago. There were a couple of us in the proshop before Pennants one day and one bloke was behind me watching me hit balls into the net.
He mentioned that at address the toe of my club was poking right up, I said I don't I ever catch the heel of the club in my swing. My sticks are 7 years old (Maxfli A10 Tours – standard lie and length) and I'd never had them fitted.

I am off 7 and have been for the last 5 or so years and only play in the Saturday comp, at the moment I haven't the time to practice so I reckon this is where I will stay for a while unless something changes, I no longer have visions of grandure just to win the occasional Div 1 Pennants match.

Back to the story, the Pro in the shop said most people lift their hands at impact, at the time I didn't give it any thought if it was good, bad or indifferent. We taped up my club and hit the board and my impact was through the correct spot on the sole of the club. So thinking more about it now, my swing is based on my clubs being what they are and I wonder if I were to have them flattened, would I be able to get my swing to work better with that??

Bumper, if you only play once a week and haven’t time to practice etc I’d leave your lies be, you know where the ball is going in general and you can grove your swing with them each week. This is your natural swing why mess with it. Your clubs are the older standard lie so they are flat enough. Not everyone need flat lies to have a flat swing, great example Jack Nicklaus had 10 upright and he had a flat downswing.

I think you’ll find Nicklaus had his clubs 1 degree upright not 10 degrees upright

Bendoon, in trying to answer your question we have to look at afew other matters.
Firstly, unless the player is trying to make a swing change then the fitting will always be geared towards their current stable swing.
Golfers fit into three basic catagories, those that have a swing, those that don’t and those that want one.
As a fitter we “don’t try to change someones swing” ( answer to question #1 ), that’s up to the coach or individual. It’s our job to assess the player and help them with their equipment.
Lots of golfers have had a fitting for their existing or new clubs and then gone away and with the help of a coach made changes to their swings. Either in consultation with their coach or the player we can then make lie/loft alterations to anticipate the direction that the player wishes to head, with regards to a new swing.
We can and often dynamically fit a player for the optimum club length by using a basic taped clubface assessment. This test using several different club lengths, gives us the best ball striking patterns for the individual ( Callaway use this method for their lie angle estimation )
Your second question was about, what you referred to as ” torqing the club ” and getting a false reading with regards to marking the toe of the sole during a lie board test.
You have half answered your own question, they “roll and throw their hands” through impact. We call this toe droop and it can also be a problem when a player is to strong for the shaft. This lets the shaft bend accessively to much on a second plane, toe down which gives the false reading of needing the lie angle to be adjusted more upright. I have seen a player tested at a local driving range, where the lie board was 1/2” below the players feet and the fitter is supposed to be the best onsite.

I’m not sure how to qualify the comment you have made about clubfitters ” most of you are breaking players especially the get them through the gates ones after the other fitters”

Bendoon, how many clubfitters do you know ???

I’m enjoying the interaction and candid comments by Brad :)

Jon…

I can’t remember who asked me about Langer?....but he was a flusher…pure strike…pure control….. he knew the beauty of not over accelerating too soon in the swing and having intentions of providing force post impact. Had lead tape all over his clubs to keep them evenly matched throughout with regards to overall weight and swingweight properties.

http://vimeo.com/18180400

see video….drop the club onto a shallower path and rotate it through with the body.. no surprises

Let’s talk about the footwork of the swing…you can see it in the first swing of the Langer video above.

Watch Greg Norman, Ben Hogan, Gary Player, DeVicenzo, Lanny Wadkins, Billy Casper, Byron Nelson just as a few examples if you want to dig up footage of them.
Of today’s players Furyk does it to some extent and Villegas does it in a very noticeable manner. All these guys show fantastic ground pressure intentions and did it whether they knew the logic or science of it or not.

See my video below from 1992 for another example.
http://vimeo.com/23863297

What is happening with the right foot?

This is ground pressures being able to be visually noticed. It is certainly very apparent in the examples… I know what I was doing because I did it and understand why it was occurring…..i did not know I was doing it at the time….but when I started delving into swings I noticed it was a common denominator to many top shelf players..

anyone want to take a guess why this happens and why the intentions of it are so useful to the swing.

Brad,
Can you ground forces, expalin the phsyics and what physics are applied to generate these forces ?

Zen
I will in a while….just wanted a few people to have a crack at it first to see who understands what is going on and how it happens

well for ground forces info all you need to do is go check out Zen’s posts ;-)

I know that they are not taught by anyone I have had one to one training with, most of them see the ground as something you stand on.

Thanks to Zenolink though not only do I know what ground forces are, I know how to use them to my advantage.

Brad Hughes could dominate Australian Tournaments in his day, with the old equipment, not many guys could hit the Persimmons long at straight.Norman, Hughes, Ogle the handful who could.Then metal woods came along.The bigger they get, the bigger the percentage of guys who can win on tour.Very little skill in hitting these 250m down a fairway.It gets harder when you need 270m to 280m as the modern pro does.Accuracy goes out the window.Heard a fourteen year old Korean girl shot 66 around a mens course the other day near our house.,Mens tees, rating for men 72.With the old equipment 73 or 74 was about the best score I heard from womans amateurs on a mens layout..This shows me how a player lacking power, has been brought into the game.Ashame for Hughes Norman etc, but will never go back now.

well for ground forces info all you need to do is go check out Zen's posts ;-)

I know that they are not taught by anyone I have had one to one training with, most of them see the ground as something you stand on.

Thanks to Zenolink though not only do I know what ground forces are, I know how to use them to my advantage.

Styles what do you see in my video or the Langer video…or Hogan, Norman, Casper, Wadkins etc….why does the right foot hitch and swivel and slide like that in swing motion? It is visible ground pressure in function…how does it happen?

bin laden,

a guy at work brought in an old driver miust have 30 years old with small face to trade in for a new one, I had not seen one up close like that and I was shocked at how small the face was, I mean the ball could hard fit on the face!! the players pre the modern era of big drivers are so much better ball strikers than today given the difficultly of the equipment, certainly lends weight to brad’s argument.

But on the flipside….modeern equipment is here to stay… should we not mould our swings to modern equipment and the modeern swing prototype, it would seem slly to build a swing around obselete equipment?

bin laden,

a guy at work brought in an old driver miust have 30 years old with small face to trade in for a new one, I had not seen one up close like that and I was shocked at how small the face was, I mean the ball could hard fit on the face!! the players pre the modern era of big drivers are so much better ball strikers than today given the difficultly of the equipment, certainly lends weight to brad's argument.

But on the flipside….modeern equipment is here to stay… should we not mould our swings to modern equipment and the modeern swing prototype, it would seem slly to build a swing around obselete equipment?

That pretty much cuts to the chase.

I can't remember who asked me about Langer?....but he was a flusher…pure strike…pure control….. he knew the beauty of not over accelerating too soon in the swing and having intentions of providing force post impact. Had lead tape all over his clubs to keep them evenly matched throughout with regards to overall weight and swingweight properties.

http://vimeo.com/18180400

see video….drop the club onto a shallower path and rotate it through with the body.. no surprises

I did Brad, watched at the aussie masters on the range, purest ball striker I have ever seen with irons. I was playing off 1 at the time and realised I was not good enough and better get a day job.

But on the flipside….modeern equipment is here to stay… should we not mould our swings to modern equipment and the modeern swing prototype, it would seem slly to build a swing around obselete equipment?

I totally get this…that equipment is too far gone to alter much…however we can always utilize things to our benefit to improve our skill level.
I always go back to Don Bradman practicing with a cricket stump and hitting a golf ball against a wall back and forth…. get good at that and improve your contact and strike and you can play with anything. Because he did that the cricket ball with a regular bat looked like a watermelon to him.
You can then go ahead and use more modern gear when you play if you like…but using it all the time will be detrimental long term because it isn’t giving your brain the necessary feedback to advance and stay ahead of the curve because it masks mishits and tries to hide swing flaws.

What is happening with the right foot?

The foot seems to slide forward then stops and balances. Like it’s replicating what the rest of the body is doing in a full swing.

well for ground forces info all you need to do is go check out Zen's posts ;-)

I know that they are not taught by anyone I have had one to one training with, most of them see the ground as something you stand on.

Thanks to Zenolink though not only do I know what ground forces are, I know how to use them to my advantage.

Styles what do you see in my video or the Langer video…or Hogan, Norman, Casper, Wadkins etc….why does the right foot hitch and swivel and slide like that in swing motion? It is visible ground pressure in function…how does it happen?

Brad,
There is physics involved to how ground forces are applied, You can not ignore these laws. When you do create the correct and true ground forces the golfer generates the same ground force patterns on force plates, these generated through research we have found, the patterns are similar in tennis, baseball, throwing etc. In order to create hip rotation, acceleration, deceleration or stabilisation of the lower body you must generate true ground forces patterns. If you don’t you will not generate the above patterns.
Greg Norman I know for a fact in the 80’s didn’t create good ground forces, in the 90’s he developed and created true ground forces. This was measured by Chris and worked with Greg on his ground forces.
From poor ground forces in the 80’s caused Greg to have hip problems and back problems and he had to make changes. These injuries occurred due to poor ground forces, once he improve and created true ground forces patterns his injuries subsided.

In all honesty you can’t tell whether or not if people are truly creating the true ground forces with out measuring them. I do this stuff for a living training coaches about ground forces and how to train them also trained many athletes, in golf and many other sports. You may visual see lower body position on video which may indicate they could have good ground forces. Although in all honesty you don’t know for sure we are guessing. Reason I say this is you can’t tell or know when the hips accelerating and decelerating or even if this is occurring, what there centre of mass is doing which plays a huge role in ground forces.

.

well for ground forces info all you need to do is go check out Zen's posts ;-)

I know that they are not taught by anyone I have had one to one training with, most of them see the ground as something you stand on.

Thanks to Zenolink though not only do I know what ground forces are, I know how to use them to my advantage.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Styles my coach has been teaching me ground forces for a year now. I asked him a while ago about this Zenolink stuff, he had never heard of it, so their not the first to find out about this. Alex Mercer preached this to him 25 years ago.

Mutant,
Alex is a great coach although and he was also involved with the state set up where they had access to biomechanics so where do you think his knowledge came from?

Chris was involved in integrating clinical software and data to measure ground forces at Motion Analysis Corporation prior to that at the American Sports Medical Institute. The software and data the Universities etc use the data and software written to measure ground forces. Sure Alex never heard of ZenoLink was started many years later after Chris working in clinical labs.
Being the first to ever do articles on force plate patterns many years for US golf magazines and world wide I’m sure Alex would have read the articles many years ago.
It’s physics the same force applies and in this area there’s no debates in research in ground forces.

Mutant care to share how your coach is teaching to to create ground forces?

zen
I didn’t ask what science is trying to pin ground forces to..
Greg Norman had no ground forces in the 80’s?...I don’t believe that because I watched him in person 2 feet away and the ball didn’t lie.
I made the same move with my right foot… I had huge ground force pressure because that pretty much was the main part of my feel and swing.
What I am saying would measure up on your screen or your tests you do as wonderful forces and application.
I can measure the extent and see ground forces on myself and my students with an everyday household item.
Hogan….Player…Norman….DeVicenzo…Larry Nelson…Byron Nelson…Lanny Wadkins… Billy Casper…Palmer….Knudson….Langer…
Faldo…Peter Senior…all to large or varying degrees. Some it was very noticeable, some you have to watch a bit closer.
ALL of them made this right foot move.
Some of the greatest ever as far as striking and longevity…...None of these golfers mentioned were ever injured…..even though you say it was Norman’s pattern that injured him…....
I’ll bet my house they knew about ground pressures and utilized it in their swing because this right foot thing I am talking about proves it… they can’t all be wrong?

I would like to get some responses about why this happened not an answer about physics and studies by Zenolink
The question ….why does the right foot do this?

kudos to danz for putting an answer in

The right foot will do this when there is a push off the big toe and the pad just beneath it.

Brad, do you believe that an amateur golfer can get to tour standard without hitting hundreds if not thousands of golf balls every week?

Brad, do you believe that an amateur golfer can get to tour standard without hitting hundreds if not thousands of golf balls every week?

<

thats pretty much what I believe too, unless one elects to find/make the time to hit balls, work on putting, work on short game, work on fitness, then the best you can hope for is low single figures.

Here is my understanding of ground forces and what happens with the right foot. (I have not been Zeno tested)

I stand on the ground at address , 45% weight on left foot, 55% on right foot. I turn body back (seems top – bottom sequencing – torso, hips, legs, feet) and aim to have 80% – 90% of weight on inside of right foot at the top.

I push off my right foot to start downswing, this happens just before my backswing finishes, my arms drop via gravity automatically, I actively rotate through the ball as a result of that push off (seems bottom – top sequencing – foot, legs, hips, torso) with the aim to have 80 – 90% of my weight on the inside of my left foot before the strike.

At follow through finish my right foot is on the toe, checkpoint for me is it not at an angle. This tells me I rotated properly.

The drag of right foot tends to occur with the driver and longer clubs when I hit it hard. It just happens to me naturally because of a fast rotation and weight shift.

The only thing I think about is turn slowly until I am tight and push off the right foot, everything else just happens.

Is this a good explantion of the right foot slide and are my ground forces any good? I have never had a golf injury.

I thought the left hip was the initiator ?

To me that is not natural and goes against how the body works. I think I learnt this from one of only two instruction books I ever read, Jack Nicklaus, My Way.

Power hitters at baseball also have the right foot slide, seems to me a golf swing is just a tilted version of a baseball swing.

Intersted in Zen and Brads observations of my 2 posts and whether my explanation and ground forces are correct.

A stab at the right foot action . . . your screwing the foot into the ground CW, and as the weight moves from the right to the left, the foot slides out (because you’ve maintained the pressure throughout the duration). The screwing right foot also controls the forward motion of the rest of the swing. Sevam1 calls this right foot eversion and has posted clips of hogan,e tc, i think. Releasing the right foot heel towards the target from the screwing action.

Mutant,
Alex is a great coach although and he was also involved with the state set up where they had access to biomechanics so where do you think his knowledge came from?

Chris was involved in integrating clinical software and data to measure ground forces at Motion Analysis Corporation prior to that at the American Sports Medical Institute. The software and data the Universities etc use the data and software written to measure ground forces. Sure Alex never heard of ZenoLink was started many years later after Chris working in clinical labs.
Being the first to ever do articles on force plate patterns many years for US golf magazines and world wide I'm sure Alex would have read the articles many years ago.
It's physics the same force applies and in this area there's no debates in research in ground forces.

Mutant care to share how your coach is teaching to to create ground forces?

Zenst, Are you stating that Alex Mercer learned bio-mechanics from Chris?

Give wabi_sabi about 7 out of 10…got some of it right there

Mutant,
Alex is a great coach although and he was also involved with the state set up where they had access to biomechanics so where do you think his knowledge came from?

Chris was involved in integrating clinical software and data to measure ground forces at Motion Analysis Corporation prior to that at the American Sports Medical Institute. The software and data the Universities etc use the data and software written to measure ground forces. Sure Alex never heard of ZenoLink was started many years later after Chris working in clinical labs.
Being the first to ever do articles on force plate patterns many years for US golf magazines and world wide I'm sure Alex would have read the articles many years ago.
It's physics the same force applies and in this area there's no debates in research in ground forces.

Mutant care to share how your coach is teaching to to create ground forces?

Zenst, Are you stating that Alex Mercer learned bio-mechanics from Chris?

No I’m not saying that, they are using the measurement systems he was involved in designing for clinical application, which they use to measure ground forces, motion. He also involved designing software to measure muscular loading.
When you get forces plates you are taught the physics and how they measure, his research. The American Sports Medical Institute was the first to put golf research on the map. This research is taught in universities how the human body moves and functions.
At Bio motion he continued research golf and baseball and developing Motion, Force and EMG data for clinical application with Motion Analysis Corporation. To supply technology to Uni’s etc to be able to measure human motion, ground forces and EMG technology.

Here is my understanding of ground forces and what happens with the right foot. (I have not been Zeno tested)

I stand on the ground at address , 45% weight on left foot, 55% on right foot. I turn body back (seems top – bottom sequencing – torso, hips, legs, feet) and aim to have 80% – 90% of weight on inside of right foot at the top.

I push off my right foot to start downswing, this happens just before my back swing finishes, my arms drop via gravity automatically, I actively rotate through the ball as a result of that push off (seems bottom – top sequencing – foot, legs, hips, torso) with the aim to have 80 – 90% of my weight on the inside of my left foot before the strike.

At follow through finish my right foot is on the toe, checkpoint for me is it not at an angle. This tells me I rotated properly.

The drag of right foot tends to occur with the driver and longer clubs when I hit it hard. It just happens to me naturally because of a fast rotation and weight shift.

The only thing I think about is turn slowly until I am tight and push off the right foot, everything else just happens.

Is this a good explanation of the right foot slide and are my ground forces any good? I have never had a golf injury.

Shanks,
When trying to explain ground forces is very complex, there are two ground forces patterns, Acceleration ground force patterns and deceleration patterns. This would be getting real deep and very complex to explain. Something to complex to explain in written format.
Ground forces aren’t something we can apply by physically or consciously try to apply in our golf swing.
The ground forces play a role to a chain of events which power the golf swing.
We do speak of pressing from your left to the right foot to make it easier for people to grasp the concepts although there is nuances to this.
You have shear forces which run parallel to the ground. They are extremely important. When you create shear forces you generate hip torque of rotational speed. What is more important is the opposite force reactions produce which creates hip deceleration patterns. Deceleration of the hips is very important, the opposite forces applied causing the lower body to slow and this transfer the speed produce from the hips to the upper body.
When you create true ground forces and push and pull against the ground with your feet the hips begin to accelerate, the upper body lags (keep this simple) the muscles stretch form the hip to the upper body when the hips begin to turn and accelerate on the downswing. When you create shear forces and creates opposite forces reactions the lower body slows down. This here allows the muscles stretch to begin from the lower body to the upper body, once the muscles contract the upper body accelerates. The speed transferred from the upper from the hips and the speed produced for the muscles accelerating the upper body, combine to double the acceleration speed of the upper body.

This is even deeper although when you do create the right ground forces when your press from your right side into your left side pushing and pulling against the ground, you create so much force that the opposite force reaction causes the hips to decelerate and actually counter torque away from the target prior to impact, the hips slam on the brakes and actually turn a few degrees counter clockwise. When the upper body, arms and club releases, the hips rotate left again with the upper body. This is hard to believe unless you see force plate data and your measuring the rotational speed of the hips. Mind blowing stuff but happens.
This pattern not only occurs in golf also in baseball.

Many people believe they can apply ground forces by physically trying to apply them although after reading above there is a tons more chain events occurring and all this stuff needs to be trained.
It’s like walking we don’t think about it, same as the above how this occurs is called neuromechanics and we have to train our neuromechanics so it can time when to pushes and pull against the ground and then when to load and fire our muscles.
The time a message gets from our brain to our feet is around the 2 second mark.
Modern cars break faster and harder they still tell us to stay 2 seconds behind a car because our reaction time for the message from our brain to apply pressure to the break is just under 2 seconds. Same applies for golf.
Norman, Faldo as examples they pick up the club and swing it and all the above happens for them, they trained thier nueromechanics to create these patterns. Although when Chris first meet them did moved half decent and need fine tuning to move more efficiently.

The old boys in the old days, It’s like Harry Belford said about Pharlap any won could have trained that bloody horse. What I’m saying is even before they picked up a club they had half decent nueromechanics and their body new how to move half decent to generate speed motion and power.
If we could apply these moves by consciously applying them we would all be awesome ball strikers and on tour.

Zen

Thanks, whilst your explanation is appreciated, I have read it 6 times in an attempt to undertand it, I think my explanation without the technical talk is virtually the same as yours.

These forces, ground or shear occur naturally in a good swing action don’t they?

I would assume so given you say you can not create them physically trying to.

I therefore assume my explanation of the sequencing of my swing are good forces which have created an effective swing. Please don’t tell me I need to be screened for you to agree or disagree.

I have no doubt if you have a poor action Zenolink may help you to point out poor force patterns and provide some drills (PST in your lingo) to create a better action.

Seems to me in summary, the action creates the good forces not the forces creating a good action based on your statements.

hugo, any chance of you letting us know how to get the other 3 marks?

Mutant,
Alex is a great coach although and he was also involved with the state set up where they had access to biomechanics so where do you think his knowledge came from?

Chris was involved in integrating clinical software and data to measure ground forces at Motion Analysis Corporation prior to that at the American Sports Medical Institute. The software and data the Universities etc use the data and software written to measure ground forces. Sure Alex never heard of ZenoLink was started many years later after Chris working in clinical labs.
Being the first to ever do articles on force plate patterns many years for US golf magazines and world wide I'm sure Alex would have read the articles many years ago.
It's physics the same force applies and in this area there's no debates in research in ground forces.

Mutant care to share how your coach is teaching to to create ground forces?

Zenst, Are you stating that Alex Mercer learned bio-mechanics from Chris?

No I'm not saying that, they are using the measurement systems he was involved in designing for clinical application, which they use to measure ground forces, motion. He also involved designing software to measure muscular loading.
When you get forces plates you are taught the physics and how they measure, his research. The American Sports Medical Institute was the first to put golf research on the map. This research is taught in universities how the human body moves and functions.
At Bio motion he continued research golf and baseball and developing Motion, Force and EMG data for clinical application with Motion Analysis Corporation. To supply technology to Uni's etc to be able to measure human motion, ground forces and EMG technology.

Zenst, you have to understand where I’m coming from with all these questions( I don’t want to sound critical). If you reread all your statements from an outsiders view, for which I am, all the name dropping and claims seem a little far fetched. I see a salesman working hard to push a product. Your comments and tone sound like zenolink made these players great. You can talk all research you like but their talent, and ability got them to where they are. You talk about Greg Norman, he was the best driver of the ball and world number 1 with sliding hips and so called “bad ground forces”. I am sure Charlie Earp didn’t have motion plates when teaching Norman, Grady, Baker-finch and the gaggle of talented players he had on tour.

hugo, any chance of you letting us know how to get the other 3 marks?

It’s got a bit to do with what you mentioned.
It’s got a bit to do with what Zen mentioned
It’s got a bit to do with what no-one has mentioned

If Bowdo finishes in the top 10, I will post the greatest Ad in the history of Australian television.

I dont particularly care about the technical physics behind what you’d call “ground forces” as such …... as I haven’t got time to consider any of that in my golfswing.

I have though filmed my swing a couple of times, and when I’m hitting them well, this is what I see.

This is what happens to my back foot during my golf swing. (I’m a leftie, so for once, you right handers can translate for yourselves.)

As the backswing occurs, the heel of left foot tends to lift and my foot pivots on the ball and toes, to follow the clubhead path back …... until it feel like the front half of my left foot is screwing itself counter clockwise into the ground.

At transition my heel then lifts even higher, and then as the downswing starts …..... my heel begins to spin out leftward to “unscrew” and keep my toes pointing towards the club head as it comes down and thru. Also at this point, it pushes on the ground, transferring weight over to my right foot (front foot) .............The closer the clubhead gets to the ball, the more my heel has turned in the air to keep my foot pointed towards the ball, and the weight transferring forward.

Post impact, my weight is almost all on my right foot which has also turned outward slightly, while I am up on the toes of my left (back) foot.

While my feet aren’t quite quite up in the Laura Davies driving category, (Where she almost knocks herself off her feet) ....... they do have a life of their own when I’m striking the ball well, and appear to move a lot more than most other people’s that I’ve noticed.

. . . I’ve noticed alot of japanese martial artists, in particular kendo, like to slide the back foot on strikes. Others do so when throwing punches . . . hmm . . . weight of the arms, post impact stability . . .?

Weight of the arms? That does get me thinking that heavier clubs really will make very little difference in the mass debate. Rather than put a small weight of 100 grams on our club, we would be better off putting on a kilo to our arms or 10 to our body. Surely all that counts for mass in the swing?

10 kilos of body mass is 100 times that of 100grams on a club, that gives us some mass behind the ball!

Time to beef up fellas. : )

As far as the rear foot goes Wabi seems to have it close? Keen to hear Brads 3 other points.

Mass debate ?

The right foot slides like that because these golfers are still pressuring down into the ground with their RIGHT foot…not driving all their weight across to their left side with no right side support.
The foot whilst still trying to solidly grip the ground eventually gives out due to pivot and torso rotation….the body turns whilst the foot is still gripping….it eventually gives out due to thrust and turn and can’t grip any more so it slides and gets that movement…a la Norman, Hogan, Casper, Wadkins, Player, Nelson Larry & Byron and many others and the video I showed of myself.
The level rotation of the torso post impact whilst gripping like crazy and pressuring the right foot makes this happen…it is a by product of the correct swing movements.
These guys knew the importance of ground forces in the swing.

We don’t see it much today because players are steeper into the ball, straight legged and using arm thrust to create their power instead of staying well grounded and using pivot rotational speed of a level nature….using soft spikes gives them even less traction to the turf….and they are not using ground forces to the extent that these players mentioned above did or aggressive pivot rotation to the finish.

they stop slap and flick…it’s an entirely different process

Weight of the arms? That does get me thinking that heavier clubs really will make very little difference in the mass debate. Rather than put a small weight of 100 grams on our club, we would be better off putting on a kilo to our arms or 10 to our body.

The heavier the body mass the lighter the club becomes…. you have to remember we AREN’T trying to create speed by body mass and arm/hand speed… we are trying to create it by body, forearm rotation with a solid foundation down below to use as resistance…. if you swing correctly based on what I have been trying to discuss and use opposing forces of a rotational desire….the more mass the better..
If you want to use lighter clubs and go try create all your speed with arm throw then you may hit it far on occasion but you’ll also be yelling FORE all day long and I hope you have good personal injury insurance because you’ll be clocking people 2 fairways over

Mass debate ?

the greatest game ever played

Don’t you read the thread Waffle?

Thank Brad for your reply on that, I’ll mull that over, it’s a big concept for me.

So Brad, after some thought I have some questions.

If the clubs weight is relative to the golfers, % wise I guess, then should the club weight be adjusted on some sort of ratio to the individual golfer?

If more mass the better why not swing clubs that are even heavier than you have now? I ask this as there must be some point where the added weight benefit is lost? How do you find that ideal weight?

I think most people can get the sensation of knowing when something is too heavy….unfortunately most people don’t understand when something is too light
Clubs in C swingweights and low D swingweights are too light unless you are 70 years old and can hardly move at all
I have my long irons at D3…my mid irons at D6…my short irons at D8 and my wedges at E0 swingweight.
Overall club weight is pretty constant… all dead weighting similar in weight on a scale…. so nothing feels out of the ordinary when i pick it up and swing it…. I have also been experimenting with this in the putter because why not match the bag thru….no use using a sledge hammer to hit with and then putting with a screwdriver…putters are generally the lightest clubs in the bag…why?...... normally the closer we get to the green the shorter the shaft gets and the more weight the club seems to have….so why stick a feather in your hand to putt with and throw away all the feel you have?
If I was to swing a medicus club (weighted) and then a regular club i would notice a difference….so why swing something that is drastically lighter in swingweight and deadweight? You will notice the difference even though it really doesn’t sound that much in general oz or grams weight but the lighter the club the more you will throw it because you won’t feel the headweight as well thru the swing…. that is my point with todays drivers especially…. they are trending on being 3-4 oz of deadweight lighter than your other clubs so you will never have a feel throughout your bag….
A golfer needs feel in his hands and body….if you can’t really feel what you are swinging…what feel are you going to have?

GN

Appreciate the thread and the time you have dedicated to it…very informative stuff that rings true for many of us. I remember following you around in the early days during the Riversdale Cup and I remember watching you cruise around RM with a 68 in the first round the of the Bicentennial (1988??)

Just a query – i was a single figures marker in my late teens but only played social golf to my now late 30’s due to work, study, family commitments, etc I just joined up at a sandbelt course and my first handicap back will be 12. I want to dedicate a bit more time to my golf. Im just over 6’1 and was set up 10 yrs ago with Titleist forged cavities 1 degree upright and 1 inch over – I have never been a consistent striker with my irons and have felt that the heel is hitting the ground first.

I appreciate your website and the principles – however, as you are now based in the US who in Melbourne practices your principles – should i get a set of blades 2 degrees flat to the new standard and standard length and try it out? Or which coach in Melbourne can I go see for an assessment???

cheers – many thanks for the input

I think most people can get the sensation of knowing when something is too heavy….unfortunately most people don't understand when something is too light
Clubs in C swingweights and low D swingweights are too light unless you are 70 years old and can hardly move at all
I have my long irons at D3…my mid irons at D6…my short irons at D8 and my wedges at E0 swingweight.
Overall club weight is pretty constant… all dead weighting similar in weight on a scale…. so nothing feels out of the ordinary when i pick it up and swing it…. I have also been experimenting with this in the putter because why not match the bag thru….no use using a sledge hammer to hit with and then putting with a screwdriver…putters are generally the lightest clubs in the bag…why?...... normally the closer we get to the green the shorter the shaft gets and the more weight the club seems to have….so why stick a feather in your hand to putt with and throw away all the feel you have?
If I was to swing a medicus club (weighted) and then a regular club i would notice a difference….so why swing something that is drastically lighter in swingweight and deadweight? You will notice the difference even though it really doesn't sound that much in general oz or grams weight but the lighter the club the more you will throw it because you won't feel the headweight as well thru the swing…. that is my point with todays drivers especially…. they are trending on being 3-4 oz of deadweight lighter than your other clubs so you will never have a feel throughout your bag….
A golfer needs feel in his hands and body….if you can't really feel what you are swinging…what feel are you going to have?

GN, could this be a reason for the great ball-strikers, those who are always mentioned such as Hogan, “Wild” Bill Melhorn, Snead, Trevino; being average (when compared to their ball striking) putters?
On the other hand, from the books I’ve read, I believe Bobby Locke, Billy Casper,Bob Charles, Ben Crenshaw and Loren Roberts are always mentioned as being great putters. But nothing really on their ball striking.

Clubs in C swingweights and low D swingweights are too light unless you are 70 years old and can hardly move at all

From the article on “Pro Gear Secrets”

When it comes to club set up Sergio Garcia likes them to feel very light with the main weight centred in the butt end rather than the head. To counter his clubs being shorter than standard, he gets weight plugs put under the grips bringing the overall weight up but the swingweight stays light. His swing weights are D1 in his irons, D2 in his wedges

To counter his clubs being shorter than standard, he gets weight plugs put under the grips bringing the overall weight up but the swingweight stays light.

This more the key line to the statement…OVERALL WEIGHT

I don’t think Sergio was ever the same after G Normans daughter dropped him.

I read somewhere he told one of the journo’s that she genuinely was the love of his life and it broke his heart when they split.

His ball striking has always been great he has struggled on the greens though, seems to be rolling the pill better now he is on the claw grip. He’s not managed a spot in the US Open yet but fingers crossed he will. I like his chances of winning a major better than Eldrick’s!

I see a bunch of talk about the Flat Left Wrist/ Bent Right Wrist on this forum…..is that something to strive for with the swing….. or is it a by product and more readily attainable if you produce a flatter shallower entry into the ball like I have been talking about?

Throwing myself to the wolves here because of TGM thoughts of people…....but want people to have a good hard think about this

Let me hear your thoughts handicap players…. go think outside the box for a minute..
Such a shame to watch people just throw at the ball to try create those wrist angles

I was always told it was a by product. Something that was produced from good movement patterns and impact alignments. Don’t see myself why it’s easier with a flat swing?

Could you explain or show why it is?

Stinkler,
Good….it’s a by product…unfortunately you see far too many people trying to make it happen and forgetting all the other swing dynamics because they get told it’s the true essential to striking a ball.
do a quick test….we will use a baseball style swing again at waist or hip high….nice and slow for example purposes as it’s very similar to a golf ideal except with the swing being produced higher at waist level instead of ground level we can get a better visual and understanding of what target line is and what actual path should be..

If you swing at waist high…the bat/club will deliver from around your body. Your right arm will stay closer to your side immediately as you uncoil from the top (because you are coming more around your body). Your right wrist will stay bent longer and into impact as your elbow is pressuring your right side and hands are leading. Your hands from this approach will always lead the bat/club to ball impact creating a flat left wrist/bent right wrist for you
Ever see a good baseball player go slash his arms to a straight position early and deliver the bat coming from down the target line? The only time that occurs is for curve ball chasers who then roll it along the dirt most of the time and get run out at first base.

So why do golfers want to go out so much near the target line when they swing down? All that does is lose pressure on your left arm pressure point under your arm pit….it also straightens the right arm and gets it away and off the body….and it makes the clubhead have a greater chance of pre releasing and passing the hands instead of the hands leading the club…BLW and FRW appears instead.

A steeper swing more target line orientated gives people more opportunity to screw things up… unless you can save yourself on occasion by timing this mess….this all ties in to my previous posts

Thanks for your time and input Brad.
A few months ago as a challenge to hit the unhittable, I bought myself an old set of 1980’s blades.
The heads were heavier, the lies definitly flatter.
Until reading this thread I couldn’t understand why I knocked 3 shots off my handicap in the first month. I was hitting these old irons (including 1 iron) so much better than my new-uns.

The old blades are in the bag now. People are still shaking their heads, asking why I’m playing these old clubs. Easy answer, I shoot lower scores with them.

After reading this thread I no longer feel I have to explain myself. I’ll just tell them to speak to BH.

Keep up the good work.

Brad has left the building, deja vu

Brad has left the building, deja vu

Lets hope he returns.

Brad,

In defence of Stinklers earlier question regarding mass, I need to pick you up on a point that you stated on page 4. This is not a criticism or an attack on you. Just a statement to clear up the confusion on the mass argument so then you can explain it again to develop a clearer understanding for all.

On page 4 you are discussing the advantage of a heavier club and you state that F=MA and that more mass (heavier club) will give more force at impact. The formula does indeed use mass in terms of kg, so even adding 100g to a clubhead will only alter in the equation by a factor of 0.1

When the weight becomes dynamic (ie in motion) this effect may be slightly more pronounced.

Now stinkler then went on to say that a higher mass in the golfer will add to the force delivery and I believe this to be relatively true. The force delivered in the impact will not be solely the clubhead but of the system itself (golfer and club). Now technique and mechanics come into it as some golfers have a higher effective mass at impact. A large bloke who effectively uses their mass as a effeciently as a small bloke will hit the golf ball with higher force.

Also to increase the club’s speed at impact (the other side of the equation) will take higher amounts of work (ie strength) to move the clubhead mass. For example it will take 3 times the work to swing a club of the same mass at 140mph as it will at 80mph.

So I can see where the questions and confusion comes from.

Now before everyone jumps on me, and you get defensive with me, let me say I agree with you that clubhead/shaft combinations are getting ridiculously light. Club manufacturers are focussing way too much on the speed and are as a result throwing the baby out with the bath water. There has to be a balance between mass and speed.

When I was competing in LD, yes I was personally all about speed, however I have since seen my personal error about creating mass at impact also. I am personally back playing golf again and I now realise that I can swing at 80% of the speed I used to and can still hit the ball almost as far with a better effective mass and a greater impact force. You can throw away and create speed but you must maintain pressure to create force is the biggest lesson I have learnt since coming back to golf.

Perhaps you can explain the subject of effective mass in terms of heavier clubs and more efficient mechanics to clear up any confusion…

(By the way mate, all my drives count now as I have to play each one hahaha)

Thanks for your input though mate, it is interesting and much appreciated on the site. I have other questions regarding the baseball swing to golf swing but I will save them for later as this post is already taking up enough room…

Thanks AB

You may not get a reply to this one, AB.

AB1

You wont get a reply here from Brad, trust me, if you want to expand further on your thoughts go for it as he can look but cant post. He has your email address and reckons that you have calmed down a shade from the days he knew you as “Junior”.

was he banned?

FFS

Did i miss something?
Why ban one of the most helpful contributors?

no idea either

but hey, why let someone with 25 years of tour experience on all 5 major tours on here to give us real world thoughts and opinions? that might have been helpful

this was probably the most insightful thread on the entire site having a tour pro share some thoughts, i swear that if lee westwood or sergio garcia came on here in person they would also be bagged and then banned as well cause they only bring real info instead of theories and random quotes from books

banned for what?

What’s the update admin?

Apparently (and allegedly) this town aint big enough for too many swing coaches.

Kinda sad really….. but it was good while it lasted.

Personally I like Brad Hughes/hugo/Showmethamoney he tried to explain what his beliefs were in relation to equipment and how the golf swing has changed over the years.

As to if he was right or wrong that is for somebody else to decide but I now have the opportunity to take away some new thoughts in relation to all things golf. His input here was free of charge and done for our benefit and not his.

This thread here might give some indication as to why he was shown the door http://forums.iseekgolf.com...

And I would recommend that here http://forums.iseekgolf.com... is the place to echo your concerns shown here!!

classic

they’ve got all manner of random people giving advice like that dude “loren” who speaks in random riddles, quotes and other utter bullshit, (good luck to anyone who can understand ANYTHING he says?), who is he? is he a PGA approved coach? is he a golf pro? was he EVER a golf pro? is he a swing coach in the states? what level is he, what’s his handicap? or is he just some random dude who gets onto a forum in another country to give his “professional” advice?

no one knows, yet when an ACTUAL aussie veteran professional golfer gets on here, he is ridiculed by these nobody’s? haha, the internet rules!!!

the sense of power must be intoxicating, this is giving me visions of grandeur, i’m thinking of starting my own site where i can ban EVERYONE if i feel so inclined, haha ;)

You got it wrong Ingy, Loren was nothing but courteous to Brad, in fact Loren is one of the most patient and well spoken people I’ve seen on a forum and doesn’t deserve the sort of absolute unfounded crap that is in your post. Does it matter who Loren is if the information he gives is good? He is quite open about who he is and what he does.

Yes Brad had some problems with people here, not the least that he was very opinionated and stubborn, and I’m not judging his theories which were great to hear.

If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the fire. This is a golf forum, golf is discussed, different views are put forward, harden up.

Also, be realistic. This place is owned and run by those who teach a certain way, that is their privilege, it’s their place. Brad has his place with Lag and they teach their views there, very adamantly I might add with much examination/criticism of any outsider to a greater level than you will see here too.

Bowdo is good example of how to handle a forum. Brad could have taken some points from how he conducts himself, as I guess we all could.

you missed the whole point stink, i don’t know loren, he lives on the other side of the world from what i can gather, my point was that he is on every thread in their giving advice on every topic and from what i can tell, he’s not a golf coach or a golf pro, nor has he ever been but that’s cool apparently?

then you have an actual veteran touring pro on here, he gets told by everyone that he’s wrong!

this is easy-:
if you wanted to learn how to surf, would you rather hear from me or kelly slater? and should i be lecturing kelly slater on how to surf?

unfortunately, as GPJ said somewhere in another thread, golf is the sport that has the MOST amount of theorists, guru’s, ideologies, experts and whatever else, it’s chronic, even when i’m down the range i get random strangers stopping to give me advice!

textbook theory is great, but i tell you what, hearing from someone who has actually been there and DONE what the others are all talking about is very refreshing

Stinkler,
Brad’s posts were insightful, understandable and valuable to many.

Lorens posts are confusing for 99%. A good coach or instructor, whatever the sport, must be able to communicate effectively with their audience.

More importantly, in a sport so difficult to master, the many that benefited from Brad’s posts are now poorer for him being shown the door.

This episode has exposed the owners of the site as dictators. Brads popularity was threatening to their sense of security.

Brad,
Going on holidays for a few weeks, but looking forward to purchasing one of your online lessons when I return.