Hitters or swingers…

Would love to hear your pro’s and con’s of both techniques..

I played a few of the world tours a few years back, and might be able to give some
insight into what that all meant on tour.

I was a young Doyle disciple back in the Clampett days, and studied the Mac side too… so I am pretty up on both swinging and hitting, and have come to some pretty useful conclusions
about all things G.O.L.F.

L.P
is there really any pro’s and con’s it’s what ever works for the invidual, to be honest I can floor either, hitting suits some and swinging suits others.
I can do both techniques and depends in what suituation I’m in to which I use,
I’m interested to what it meant on tour ?

Welcome to the forum lag’. Drop me an e-mail to golfguruATiseekgolfDOTcom :)

We’ll, I must say that swinging and the use of longitudinal acceleration
I believe to be the superior method of all things feel. Dumping the power package on the ball with soft hands is just a beautiful thing around the greens for all the chips, flops and around the green wedges.

I would argue that swinging makes a huge assumption that our hinges are always well oiled, free and flexible. The steady even acceleration to the moment of truth depends on exactly these things… steady, even,
and well oiled firm, but flexible hinges.

We of course can debate the pressure gauge software inside the computer. Everyone seems to have a different setting. I am not likely to go into the red on a weekend game with guys at the club, but coming down the final three holes to win the South Australian Open might put me well into the red! lol

It’s natural when we feel pressure to tighten up, and these states of muscle constraint do not do well for the free flexible hinges.

Now if you have the mind of a Nicklaus, and pressure does not bother you, then your computer will keep pumping oil to those hinges right to the award platform on the 72nd green. For me that was not usually the case!

Once I learned how to hit, with a tight grip pressure, and radial acceleration with an angled hinge, I found that to be much better under the gun, and as my computer would cut off the oil and my muscles would tighten, I would typically just rotate a bit faster and I would just have to remember to pull one LESS club down the stretch
and since I would practice with a very tight cohesive body tension,
those moments would really just seem all too familiar…. I found I was able to perform much better under pressure with pure hitting techniques.

Greg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull the club out of orbit with the angled hinge, and the answer was really quite simple. So I could hit it straight consistently!

Is Peter Lonard a Hitter?

Is there a downside to Hitting? Do you have to have forearms like Popeye to make it work…?

lag…dumb it down a bit please mate, I get confused easily at the best of times :)

lag…dumb it down a bit please mate, I get confused easily at the best of times :)

A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.

Yeah me too please lag. You are obviously going to have a bit to offer on the threads, but really don’t need another Jeffman who talks in other world academic speak.

(No offence intended Jeff, just that some of your responses are just soooo hard to comprehend)

I’m trying to make sense of the posts as well. I did however think immediately of this clip on YouTube:

Golf Blooper

Cheers,

Mick

I think he’s trying to talk in layman’s terms actually, but you probably have to have some idea of the TGM concepts in play though

LagPressure

You present an interesting perspective on hitting versus swinging.

Your idea that swinging depends on well-oiled hinges makes sense to me, and I can readily believe that a swinger could therefore have more day-by-day swing inconsistency than a hitter, who powers the swing with a radial thrust (in an pick-axe manner).

You wrote-: “Greg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull the club out of orbit with the angled hinge. Could you please expand on this point about pulling the club out of orbit with angled hinging?

Jeff.

OK,

In simple terms..

Swingers are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth and effortless looking (don’t be fooled though)

Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of thing.

I didn’t mean to sound over the top…
I assumed this was a golf machine thread and that everyone here spoke that G.O.L.F. language..

The heart of what I was saying is that I think pure swingers have a harder time under pressure, and in my years on the tour, I saw the games best using hitting methods. Clampett and I had a long talk about it one year at Q school. He agreed.

The best striker I ever saw was Peter Senior from Australia. I was there when he we waxing everyone from Norman in his prime, Faldo,
no one could touch him. No swinging going on with that fine move.

Swingers pull, hitters push. I believe there are purists on each end of the spectrum, most players do some of both, often not all that effectively.

MUNTZ

I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is much more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a hitter for sure… Swinging can give you tremendous length with the proper application, and minimal overall body strength. If you want to just flat out hit it long… swing.. If you want to rarely miss a fairway, hit.

From a purely ideological standpoint swinging is superior I believe.
But for me hitting proved the better method to win money and tournaments on the world stage.

Yes you are correct, but to maximize the dynamics of law, swingers have things like maximum swing radius, snap loading, and full dual horizontal hinge action to give it that classic long smooth look… and a lot of wallop!

As far as the book, I don’t think it leaves much to interpretation, and the objectiveness of it… is what lands it in truth… and not imagination.

“Complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery!”

No mystery in the golf swing.. I agree…

Lag pressure is the secret of G.O.L.F.

According to a video of Greg McHatton, Greg said when he took part in one of the G.O.L.F. week with Homer, Homer said he don’t like “Swinging”...coz that is too easy…It will be interesting to see Greg with a “Hitting” video.

BTW, lagpressue, please share with us more.

JEFF

Greg McHatton once asked me why I would want to pull the club out of orbit with the angled hinge. Could you please expand on this point about pulling the club out of orbit with angled hinging?

Ok,

If you were to let go of the club at impact the club would of course bounce off the ground move away from you.. say towards 10 or 11 o clock. Aiming the hands at the inside quadrant of the ball.

Now if you go with that momentum you can use a full roll of the wrists and let the arms move away from the body after dumping all the force on the ball and then into the ground. This is the Doyle, McHatton approach, and it works well. I know. I can swing that way and have won tournaments with that kind of swing.

Now if you fight that expanding circle action, you have to use an angle hinge, no wrist roll and the club is released by the rotation of the body. If you stand behind a golfer with this motion, the hands will quickly disappear around the body after impact… kind of like cutting it left. This is more the Mac O Grady motion. Hogan was all about this too. By pulling the club out of it’s natural longitudinal orbit,
you create a massive amount of pressure in your hands, on all three pressure points. This pressure in your hands is FEEL! and this is the feel that you can learn to utilize to control the ball exactly how you want to…. a three yard draw, a five yard fade, low, high, it’s all yours if you can learn to do it. Warning! You have to have strong arms and hands if you are planning on rotating fast and hitting it far!

On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles to the spine or axis. It’s a great move to master though, because if you can do it, you can’t ever get over the top of the shot and pull it.
For those who are still confused, it feels like you are coming right over the top to hit a big pull shot, but instead, that hands move straight down, as if they are going to land in your right hip pocket, but your shoulders are turning as flat a a 15th century spanish globe.

I have seen that move win a lot of money and tournaments.

Lag pressure is the secret of G.O.L.F.

AMEN!!!!!

Thanks for sharing there Lag. It is a great thing to be able to use both hitting and swinging for different circumstances. Just being aware of when they are so that you can make the change is a topic all on its own:)

Swinging is oily fluid motion. Hitting is more power thrusting right arm biff. Now guys go re- read that post and I hope it makes more sense now.

Hitters lose distance, but can make it up with strength. I have always believed that to hold the flex of the shaft all the way to the ball is the most difficult thing ever asked of the human body! The hitters nirvana is to hold the flex of the shaft passed impact. Remember, when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft itself releases, even if the clubhead is well behind the hands. It’s tough to see it even on high speed video. This is why tour pros still hit bad shots. With X shafts we don’t have much room for error here. Hitting the ball with a pre stressed shaft is the meaning of sustaining the lag. Many people get confused between the angle of the shaft and the left arm, the big deep lag look, Hogan, Sergio, etc… and true lag pressure which is the physics of actually stressing the shaft. Tough stuff my friends.

To hit the ball far you only need clubhead speed, but to hit it straight everyday, you need acceleration. My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact, which leads to the 5th accumulator, but I am not ready to start that discussion with die hard golf machine
purists…LOL

The only guy I have ever seen do it all the time is Moe Norman. Moe used to tell me to take bacon strip divots, not pork chops! To each their own I guess but Doyle was all about serving pork chops…

Swingers are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth and effortless looking (don't be fooled though)

Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of thing

I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is much more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a hitter for sure… Swinging can give you tremendous length with the proper application, and minimal overall body strength.

If you want to just flat out hit it long… swing.. If you want to rarely miss a fairway, hit

Hi Lag Pressure,

Welcome to Hell… I mean ISG… hahaha (only joking admin!)

I happen to agree with Serenty, I don’t doubt your knowledge but I think you have over generalised a tad.

Not all hitters have a short quick backswing as I would class myself as primarily a hitter, however I have a long, slow backswing to fully wind up.

Im yet to be convinced that golfers are purely one or the other, primarily yes, but purely no. I think blending sometimes occurs and golfers will exhibit characteristics of both hitting and swinging.

To all that are reading this, I am in no way denegrating TGM as I am extremely interested in it and am in a learning phase.

Let me explain:

I personally have a long backswing wind up – slow and controlled. At the beginning of the downswing I “pull” the club into what I would term a “hitting slot”. From here I hit hard with the right hand snapping the club through impact. For me on the way back is a “swing”, from halfway down point in the downswing I am very aggressive and take advantage of muscular strength to “hit” the ball.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
(I am not trying to be smart, am trying to learn)

As far as swinging being the ultimate in achieving length off the tee, I think you will find that almost every long driver in the world would describe a strong “hitting” sensation through the impact zone with the dominant trailing hand. By the same token It would be rare to find one though that doesn’t exhibit the long flowing backswing of a “swinger”.

Is there ever a hitting sensation in a swinger or a swinging sensation in a hitter? Are there hybrid models in TGM?

You either hit or swing. Reason for this is one is an Angle of Approach and the other an Arc of Approach. They are directed in two different ways. Right arm thrust is a straight line thrust. Swingers are arcs.

How you swing back can see the pattern components mixed. How you swing down has to be one or the other or you have a train wreck in terms of clubhead and face control.

A swinger can feel a straightening right arm via extensor action (right elbow is stretched straight). A hitter feels it through outright use of the right elbow straightening as hard as it can.

My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,

Good luck with that one!

You either hit or swing. Reason for this is one is an Angle of Approach and the other an Arc of Approach. They are directed in two different ways. Right arm thrust is a straight line thrust. Swingers are arcs.

How you swing back can see the pattern components mixed. How you swing down has to be one or the other or you have a train wreck in terms of clubhead and face control.

A swinger can feel a straightening right arm via extensor action (right elbow is stretched straight). A hitter feels it through outright use of the right elbow straightening as hard as it can.

Thanks Guru,

Makes more sense, hopefully when I am a little more TGM saavy I will be able to explain what I am talking about in correct terminology.

Over generalisation on characteristics of hitter (fast, short b’swing) v swinger (long, flowing b’swing) led to my initial confusion. I definitely head straight at the ball from downswing (cutting off my arc, so to speack), which classes me as hitter?

My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,

Good luck with that one!

down and out…did ya get that?

I want all the energy transferred into the ball personally

Is it worth learning to swing and hit?

But not swit.

Sure is worth the effort to see the differences and then use them when its appropriate.

Lag’: Happy to have 5th accumulators thrown into this forum. The forum is about good golf info and I for one am open to the ideas as long as you are happy to educate as there will be questions! Our sort of motto in here is;

“There is on such thing as a silly question. If the question makes no sense then it shows the light bulb is not even close to being wired up and plugged in yet to make it a fathomable question.”

Guru is correct…

Radial acceleration and longitudinal acceleration are mutually exclusive.

try to do both, train wreck..!

Is it worth learning to swing and hit?

But not swit.

Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you are inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing. – BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF

swit…hahahaha

My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,

Good luck with that one!

down and out…did ya get that?

Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with machine testing….

righto, so what are the different situations you would hit rather than swing (or swing rather than hit)? – short irons, drives, punches….what are the best ways to apply each type of swing…and are all people capable of being a swinger and a hitter?

Beautiful, thanks for the understandable explanation Lag and Guru. I have just realised, or more to the point, confirmed in my mind, I am a swinger. Makes life a whole lot easier to put into practice some of the things I have taken from these threads and also knowing what is not for me. As Guru would say, lightbulb has come on and the mist is clearing. I am sure it should have come on earlier, but I was missing the switch.

Swingers are the guys with the long flowing swings, smooth and effortless looking (don't be fooled though)

Hitters look more like short backswing, quick swing, that kind of thing

I believe hitters sometimes lack the touch and finesse, and it is much more based on strength, that is correct, Popeye would be a hitter for sure… Swinging can give you tremendous length with the proper application, and minimal overall body strength.

If you want to just flat out hit it long… swing.. If you want to rarely miss a fairway, hit

Hi Lag Pressure,

Welcome to Hell… I mean ISG… hahaha (only joking admin!)

I happen to agree with Serenty, I don't doubt your knowledge but I think you have over generalised a tad.

Not all hitters have a short quick backswing as I would class myself as primarily a hitter, however I have a long, slow backswing to fully wind up.

Im yet to be convinced that golfers are purely one or the other, primarily yes, but purely no. I think blending sometimes occurs and golfers will exhibit characteristics of both hitting and swinging.

To all that are reading this, I am in no way denegrating TGM as I am extremely interested in it and am in a learning phase.

Let me explain:

I personally have a long backswing wind up ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú slow and controlled. At the beginning of the downswing I ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìpull” the club into what I would term a ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìhitting slot”. From here I hit hard with the right hand snapping the club through impact. For me on the way back is a ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìswing”, from halfway down point in the downswing I am very aggressive and take advantage of muscular strength to ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìhit” the ball.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
(I am not trying to be smart, am trying to learn)

As far as swinging being the ultimate in achieving length off the tee, I think you will find that almost every long driver in the world would describe a strong ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìhitting” sensation through the impact zone with the dominant trailing hand. By the same token It would be rare to find one though that doesn't exhibit the long flowing backswing of a ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìswinger”.

Is there ever a hitting sensation in a swinger or a swinging sensation in a hitter? Are there hybrid models in TGM?

Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance Champ.

hmmm now I am crying in my golf bag, getting my mouldy sangers wet, staining my wet weather gear, I’ve finally worked out that I CAN’T have just one swing, I have to hit my chips, I must hit my punches, it’s why I’ve been struggling from around 100m….. aaahhhhhhhhhhgggggrrrr

I hate this forum, it teaches me stuff, now I gotta practice again…. ahhh an excuse to practice… ohk that’s cool, feeling better now, not so depressed….

Now where’s that driving range, oh yeah, just where I left it….

Gotta love learning:) This place may shake a mind or two. We hope in the long run to a better understanding of swing (or hit) so that you can do it better more often.

Where is the Dart? Sir…You must say something on this matter. You preferred Hitting over Swinging when I first knew your name, but lately you said that you changed the ship captain.

Why?

My goal is to have the clubhead moving faster AFTER impact,

Good luck with that one!

down and out…did ya get that?

Johnny Miller claimed that he is the only one to do that with machine testing….

And Brian Manzella has basically clamed it is impossible.

And Brain sometime said himself…. “I was dead wrong”....

I will find the clip Johnny said at TGC. Of course, Johnny might be dead wrong…

Sorry…no offence to great player and great teacher.

Dart must be out for the day…..maybe even 9 holes? ?

Dart teaches you how to hit first, then swing. I would suggest that there is no preferred pattern as such, just what the individual is more physically capable of doing better one way than the other.

Stick man me can hit but without much strength, swinging for distance is a must. I can hit pretty straight over shorter distances though. Just got to make my mind up before I hit the ball what I am going to do.

(Note to self: the brain needs to be engaged in that decision making process before walking up to the ball)

Well as far as the 5th accumulator goes, if anyone has ever actually built a plane to swing on, you find out quickly that the club does not ride on a perfect flat plane like in Hogan’s book. It would be pretty flat… and if you believe as I do that the true objective of the swing is to have the clubhead traveling faster after impact than before, (true pre stressed shaft flex to the ball and beyond) you are going to have to be applying some serious forces upon that shaft long after impact..

This is where that final plane shift from elbow plane to shoulder plane
takes place. I believe the secret lies here…

I have one word.. Peter Senior… I saw it.. I was there, in the late 80’s in Australia, no one hit it better than Peter Senior..not Norman, not Faldo, not O Grady….. and I believe Hogan did the same.

So after Accumulator #4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip cleared, the right arm is extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent, what is left to keep accelerating?

Think on these things..

I have heard Johnny Miller speak about that…

The Iron Byron machine does it..

Mac O claims to do it..

I would say from my personal experience, and the use of high speed cameras, it is possible to hold the flex to the ball and beyond without a pork chop divot.

the secret 5th accumulator..

I think it parallels golf itself.. the closer you get to it, the better you will be..

Finish swivel?

lag’: Playing the devils advocate here, the high speed shots of late are said to show the shaft does not stay stressed through impact.
I had discussions with Mr Wishon have these photos showing the shafts ‘spent’ even with a snap release. If you have some stressed ones please throw them down the e-mail pipe. You can wear a mask if you wish:)

Homer threw everyone a clue with the Flat LEVEL and Vertical (ie not uncocked) to keep the acceleration through impact. But you have said your 5th is post that point anyway.

“Four Barrel??? That might be a great choice for Long Distance Champ.”

What is four barrel? (In simple terms and how is it performed?)

Snap release – Is this accompanied by a “roll release”? Is snap release and roll release the same?

I had a bit of a play at the range today and found that I was “block” releasing have been getting pain on the Ulna side of my wrist. I implemented a “roll” release (from baseball days – Sorry Bio forgotten correct TGM terminolgy) and started hitting the hardest flying draw. My swing speed climbed into the 140’s a couple of times and bottomed out in the mid 130’s. I also had more penetration on my ball flight through the air. Control was much easier as I could am down the right and snap as hard as I could, ending down the left at worst.

Is this a product of “roll” releasing?

Would this from a mechanical viewpoint:
1. Increase clubhead speed?
2. Decrease backspin rate (due to clubhead rolling and imparting right to left spin) and produce a “hotter” flight

I feel as Guru says: Today felt like a light bulb moment…

I do believe what we are talking here is the holy grail of golf.
Difficult and as ever elusive as the game itself.. From my own swing lab, using 10K shutter camera film I do have some shots of it somewhere. I remember having seen the Iron Byron Machine do it.

When I was in top form back in the late 80’s I felt I could do it hitting but not swinging and I have some video somewhere to demonstrate it.
I’ll have to dig it up, but I did put it to the test, and was able to take home a win on the Canadian Tour, blades, persimmon, four rounds in the 60’s and 17 under, back when that actually meant something! lol… right around that time I had a round at Madera CC where I hit the pin 4 times in a round from fairways. That was telling me I was on the right track.

Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft will release. Pictures of a swing might appear to have a delayed shaft angle or what most call lag, but the shaft itself may be telling a different story.

I for one am a lover of over acceleration from the top! lol.. never throwing the club, but if my torso moves too fast from the top, and I put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it makes holding the flex impossible. X shafts did wonders for me on days like this, as I would still be able to hit greens and keep the ball in play, but not knocking down pins.

Mac was big on firing #1 first, but really to just get the club back down from shoulder plane to elbow plane. I personally like that move a lot, and I used to practice starting down with zero hip turn
and zero shoulder turn then once the club was at the 3rd parallel,
just rip it around with the body as fast as I could with a frozen right arm till the 4rth parallel. It’s a great way to swing if you can master it and your goal is to hit it dead straight all day. You have to really feel and develop what I called a cohesive body tension, where every muscle in the body is like one solid fiber. I used and applied that concept on tour, and it was really pressure proof as far as direction. Controlling distance was more of a challenge under the gun. Like Clampett, I hated the feeling of tension in the body when I was trying to swing with well oiled hinges… that’s why he left Doyle… and also why I eventually did too.. but I never left the golfing machine.. Doyle at least through the late 80’s only taught swinging. Mac was on the other side of the fence (hitting)

Swinging for me took a lot of practice, stretching, and all in all my body just had to feel really loose free and oily..
I couldn’t just step off the plane after a long flight, bad food, and go to the course and start flushing shots right away. Each week was like having to re lube the machine and get it all oiled up for Thursday. It really wore me out over time.. the road is a whole other thing. I saw a lot of compact short swing hitters just step off the plane at shoot 65 in a Tuesday round.. I was always quite envious of that until I learned how to do it myself.

That duel horizontal hinge is just way too much timing for me if I am on the road trying to make a living playing golf.

As a swinger, I could pure it…but if I was off, it was ugly, I could just spray it all over the course. When I switched over, I lost some distance but became a much better striker, and even to this day, I never hit it all over the course. I can take a year off golf and go out and shoot par or even better … I have done it..
I could never have done that the old way (swinging) I’m not that talented.

Physics tells us that when acceleration reaches zero, the shaft will release.

No – it’s quite a bit more complicated than that.

Lag Pressure,
weclome to the forum, great post, I’m enjoying our stories and information, drop me a line bome77@ bigppond dot com,
would like to talk further

I put a quick flex on the shaft at the change of direction, it makes holding the flex impossible

Holding the flex IS practically impossible. I don’t mean practically in the sense that it is almost impossible. I mean that the only conditions allowing the flex to be maintained are impractical. For example, you could “hold the flex” if the hands always moved at a higher speed than the clubhead. But that wouldn’t be particularly useful for hitting a golf shot, hence impractical.

Matt,
You are right, in this sense, but the hands are moving faster than the club head, up until release,
did some research on this we had a sensor on the hands and a sensor on the club head.
mass x velocity, hips 300 fps, upper bdoy doulbe in speed 600fps,hands doubled again, hands were 1200 fps club before impact 1200frps when released 2400fps fps=frames per second.

in regards to physics and zero acceleration, lagpressure is correct, we measured this and has been proven, just before impact, hips, upper body,arms and hands decelerate and mearly completley stop, wasn’t for centrifugal force of the clubhead you would, it’s momentum of the clubhead that keeps you powering on

I’m curious about the sensations of swinging vs hitting. I have a suspicion I actually started my golfing life as a (clumsy) hitter and have been trying to transition into a swinger in the last 6 months after learning about flat left wrists and hinges and swivels.

I recall a session I had on the range with my old driver a few years ago, where I was taking a shorter than normal backswing and striking the ball with a hard, compact swing – and getting very long, straight results. Didn’t really understand what I was doing so I couldn’t pull it out very often. Also remember a few older golfers say “you hit your irons a long way considering you only swing with your arms.”

I think I unconsciously revert to a stiffer, hitting “biff” type of action, rather than the “oily fluid motion” of a swinger, when I’m on the course especially when I am trying to hit the ball hard. Which sabotages the rolling / hinging / swivelling action I’ve been working on.

I guess to me the “swinging” swing feels weaker, like it can’t generate the power I want i.e. I just instinctively want to “biff” the club at the ball. But if I’m reading this topic right, if the “swing” is coordinated correctly you can generate more power than a hitter with a relatively “lazy”, effortless feel. (?)

So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from? Is it a sort of fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the passive arms down until the club is released at the last moment with educated wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of some of the power?

Swinging only looks graceful, lazy or easy..
Doyle used to describe it to me as like a duck on the water..
it appears to be moving effortlessly across the lake, but underwater
it is paddling really hard, you don’t see that..

You don’t get something for nothing in this game! lol

From a standpoint of feel and what swinging would feel like in my body
(remember the Golfing Machine says to learn feel from Mechanics, not the other way around) I would strive for maximum swing radius so I would float load or drag load the club back to the top, so that my wrist would not cock until the very end of my backswing, then I would flex my knees into a big “sitdown” bowlegged thing, this would start the change in direction, and I would hold 90 degree club shaft angle to the third parallel with a big gutty upper body rotation into this sit down leg squat.
Once there the left leg would straighten violently and the hips would clear fast and you just dump all that inertia onto the ball and into the ground with loosey goosey free flexible wrist and arms. The thing that was amazing about this, and so different is that after impact the upper arms would NOT stay packed and in tight to the body but would just move out away from the body with a full roll of the wrists, so free and spent feeling. You just have to trust that the forces that be will release the club into perfect alignment, and amazingly they do! ... but with this one disclosure … FREE FLEXIBLE HINGES WITH
A STEADY AND EVEN ACCELERATION on the way down.

So my argument as a practical player and tester of this is that yes it does work, as long as the brain sends oil to the joints! .. meaning you don’t tighten up, get nervous or feel any pressure out on the course. Confidence can go a long way for sure, but that ended for me in the Australian Open at Royal Melbourne in 1989 when I played some very fine golf on the toughest windiest fastest greens,
and the longest course I had ever played, a pair of 74’s made the cut easily and I was 16 back of Greg Norman’s 66-66 opening.
I just couldn’t wrap my brain around that… and in the years I was down there playing against the worlds greats at that time, Faldo, Woosnam, Colin Montgomery, and various American pros, this other guy Peter Senior whom no one over here knew of, but let me say that this guy would shoot a 64 every week at some point, and I don’t care how hard it blew or how fast the greens were, or how long it was, or tight or anything, and he was just drumming everyone then.
People bagged on him because of his swing, but let me tell you the truth, I have him on high speed camera, and no one ever looked more like Hogan from the top down past impact, and I have never seen a golfer hit the ball with such pressure before of since. And what I believe to be the 5th accumulator, he did it more than anyone ever..

So to end my rant here… I knew my little swinging thing was not going to cut it in this league of crafty players, that were all hitters and dynamics was the name of the game..

I went home, and after talking to Mac when he was down under, I changed over to hitting, and gladly so.. within two years I was hitting the ball with much more force and control, and found myself in the top 300 in the world after a win in Canada and some other good finishes.

That was as good as golf got for me, and the rest of my saga is a whole other story.. lol

OK, I start my backswing with my shoulders, turning until my wrists have no choice but to break. This is done totally without thought now, I’ve been doing it for a few years. Sometimes I will consciously shorten my backswing that is the only variation here, I use this with all my clubs including my putter.

If I have been playing regularly and practicing I then start the down motion with my hips, driving around, up and left, letting my arms follow when they have to, as my arms begin to follow I release from the top like a big coil spring. This results in one of two things with my driver, either I hit it straight and 300m + or if I don’t release quite all the way through then I will push right. Is this swinging or hitting, it sounds like swinging to me.

However, if I haven’t been playing much I leave the hip drive until much later in the swing, I am not sure if I start the swing with my hips here, I don’t feel like I do, it seems to just be a turn where everything sort of stays together and there is a much later release. I still feel that I drive left and up with my hips. This means I still hit the ball around 280-300m but I can work the ball easier, left or right at will. This sounds like I am hitting?

The two swings aren’t a lot different, just the release point isn’t as early in swing two.

Circumstances have kept me away from competitive golf for about 8 months so my game hasn’t really been tested, but I shoot in the mid 70s most days without any real practice. Tension doesn’t enter the equation at the moment due to this lack of competition, but that will change i am sure. Mentally I feel stronger than I ever have, my capacity to relax is without question, and I do Pilates twice a day so the spring is oiled no doubt about that….

Lagpressure,
You mentioned sit down, I’m very happy to hear this,for years I never understood why doyle would say sit down,until I became a biomechanist,hence I’m a T.G.M man all the way. BY sitting creates down force down through your feet, creates axis tilt and hip tilt, allows you to load hard and then fire your body as you have mentioned, a misconception alot of people have is rotate hips first, and doesn’t allow time for loading correctly, instead of tilting first
a tilt of hips or axis tilt or downward motion of the hands and arms can’t keep up with any type of rotation, This is why some many people OTT, if they learnt to sit first, there hips tilt and they get axis tilt and they can load properly. sitting on the down swing is the beginning of the kinectic chain, creates down force from the feet, hips tilts, axis tilts, hips rotate, then upper body rotates, arms and hand fires into impact. every thing double mass x times velocity.
hips 300frp,upper body 600frps,arms and hands 1200frps and club head 2400frps fps=frames per second,
Lagpressure would like to talk more with you and learn some more
I’m a T.G.M boy use biomechanics to teach T.G.M , helps me give students the feeling of the correct mechanics.
my email is bome77@bigpond dot com

Lag’: the bowlegged thing I only ever heard the term specifically used by Bill Skelley who used to work with Lynn Blake before he headed off into the finance world. Did you ever run into him in your travels? Bill was a fellow who never did his TGM paperwork yet was a man who could describe in lay terms all the gear. I learned a heap from him.

Enjoying the threat. Thanks for sharing as the golfing world loves hearing this sort of stuff and encourages them to keep searching.

Cliffmanley

Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting or swinging,

Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower position?

Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?

One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to be one of the first and most important elements of educated hands…

Hi Lagpressure,

Thank you for your phenomenal posts!!! It is great to have a G.O.L.F. thread to allow us a deeper look into precision and power. I can see you and the Dart having a couple of whiskeys and B.S.-ing into the wee hours! I was lucky enough to do that and left with more knowledge my brain could handle….still incubating :)

Your insights into Peter Senior’s skill should be heard World Wide. I loved watching him on T.V. and would have bent over backwards to see him live.One of the things that was interesting to me was how he stood up into his finish with his right side. His move looked to be very “body friendly”.

I too have switched to a hitting pattern and have thoughly enjoyed its accuracy and reliability. Drive Loading against the backswing has eliminated my concerns for good geometry that I relied on during swinging. The forces just want to seek out their own alignments. Is this your experience too?

Also, I am by no means an expert in TGM but absolutely believe in its principles. You mentioned a 5th Accumulator. Are you alluding to the bent right wrist?

Thanks,
spike

Hi Guru,

I too never took the TGM exam, as I have never been an official teacher, but I did spend a lot of time on tour working with some of the guys that seemed interested in what I was doing. I think I was more of an early test subject for TGM. Grant Waite and I used to spend a lot time sharing ideas, Carlos Espinosa, and Vic Wilk who were all fine players and tour winners and we spent a lot of time together shedding concepts late into the night over a beer or two. I agree with most of what Mac says too, but I don’t agree with everything he says. Mainly I am not a fan of his abrupt plane shift from hands plane to shoulder plane, and then back down. It is certainly covered in TGM components, but in reality Mac’s hands come in higher at impact than where he starts them. Now he would argue that this is merely a result of the outward forces from the tremendous rotational speed he generates, but I will tell you that Hogan turned very fast and Peter Senior even faster, and their hands came in lower through impact.
Depending on shaft flex we know too that the shaft flattens the lie of the club some, maybe half a degree and maybe more with looser shafts, so all the more reason to keep those hands in close and low if you are using radial acceleration and hitting. I am 6 ft tall and have my irons set at 1 degree flat. Even my old stuff.. I have 10 sets of vintage irons that I rotate between rounds. I just love all the different feels of some of those timeless blades. I am still all persimmon too, but don’t get me started on all that! lol

The closest thing to a flat plane I ever saw was Moe Norman. I talked a lot with Moe, played with Moe, and I probably have some of the best video footage of him from 1987 when he still ripped it pretty good. Red Deer CC in Alberta, all kinds of shots and angles all at 10K shutter frames..

Lynn Blake

Sounds all to familiar … Was he good friends with Bruce Summerhayes? I am sure we crossed paths if he was in the Doyle camp back in the early 80’s

Muntz

You wrote-: “So where should a swinger feel the power is coming from? Is it a sort of fly wheel effect with the torso / shoulders spinning the passive arms down until the club is released at the last moment with educated wrist / hand action? Or is the R arm pushing still a source of some of the power?”

I think that Homer Kelley adequately answered this question in TGM. He stated that a swinger uses a triple barrel swing (involving the loading and release of 3 power accumulators – numbers 4, 2 and 3 which have to be released in that specific order). Power accumulator number 4 (angle between the left arm and upper torso) is the source of most of the swing power in a swinger’s swing – as a flywheel effect. Homer Kelley stated that the downswing pivot action (flywheel effect) is primarily responsible for powering power accumulator number 4, and the faster the downswing pivot action the greater the swing power (eg.Tiger Woods swing). Power accumulator number 2 (angle between the left arm and clubshaft) is the second power accumulator to be released in a swinging action and its power is increased with a delayed snap release (where the hands turn around a small pulley in the late downswing – one really needs to understand Homer Kelley’s “endless belt” effect to really understand the pulley action). Power accumulator release 3 is actually a transfer power action, and it provides the least amount of power in a swinging action.

Power accumulator number 1 (straightening of the angle between the right forearm and right arm at the right elbow joint) provides no active swing power in a swinging action. The reason is that the centrifugal action due to release of power accumulator number 2 is so dominant that the right forearm cannot produce additional swing power in the late downswing. The right triceps muscle contracts and straightens the right arm in the late downswing in a swinger, but that muscle action doesn’t cause the clubshaft to travel faster because the clubshaft is already traveling at maximum speed due to the super-efficient release of power accumulator number 2. If a swinger can actively use power accumulator number 1 in a late hit action (thereby becoming a switter), then it suggests that his centrifugal action is too slow/weak.

By contrast, in a hitter, power accumulator number 1 is the major source of swing power and it overrides any centrifugal action due to release of power accumulator number 2. In fact. the sequence of power release in a hitter is 1, 2, 3 – and the release force of power accumulator number 1 actively drives the release action of power accumulators number 2/3 as an unitary action (rather than the sequential release of power accumulator number 2 and then 3). A hitter can use power accumulator number 4 to a certain degree, but there is a limit to the use of power accumulator number 4 in a hitter’s action because the hitter needs the right shoulder as a backstop to hit from – the hitter primarily uses the right shoulder as a launching pad for the right arm’s muscular throw-out action.

Jeff.

LB was in Homers second bunch of guys and works over East. Not sure Skelley ever worked with Ben though. GW worked with my original TGM mentor Chuck Evans a few years back.

Spike,

I love hitting too.. the best thing is I don’t have to practice at all to keep the ball on the course, and there have been times since my retirement where I went over a year without touching a club. One year I went out with my father, having not played in over a year, and I shot 68 at Oak Creek CC in Sedona which is a decent test RT Jones track. Now I am not saying this to toot my horn here, but to make a point… there is absolutely no way I could have done that swinging with rusty hinges!

Now getting back to the 5th accumulator, what you were saying about Peter Senior and his finish.. that is it .. you nailed it.. it may not look conventional, but the dynamics of him just ripping the shaft back up the plane, from the lowest position to the highest did nothing but keep the forces on the shaft well after impact making every humanly possible effort the have the hands moving faster than the clubhead, and in doing so seeking the impossible holy grail of holding the flex to the ball, past or beyond.

Now whomever has been taking these High speed photos of shaft flex and saying it is not possible, do we have any of Peter from the late 80’s?

Show me that and I’ll be a believer..

But even if it is not possible to do as some have claimed, the concept of it is what I believe we all should be striving to do.
The closer you get to it, the better you will hit it.. I really believe this…
assuming you are hitting of course…

It would be cool to have the same sort of shots for Trevino, Palmer and maybe there are some around of Kenny Perry. It is a line of thought banned about with Tom W and I do not think he had any top class hitters to take snaps of.

Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger to hitter and why the choice?

Peter Senior and his finish.. Greg Norman…5th accumulator….

I am thinking Mr. Homer Kelly mentioned that even a well-accomplished double barrel ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú utilize two accumulators can play great golf.

And as far as I remember (don’t have the book in hand), Power accumulator is simply out-of line and in-line condition of power package, it should also relate with pressure point.

When you mentioned about the 5th one, you said: so after Accumulator #4 is spent, the body rotation, the left hip cleared, the right arm is extended, wrist rotation and uncocking spent, what is left to keep accelerating?

Do we have the 5th pressuer point? what is the 5th one that can be out-of line and in-line afterward?

Are you talking about the spine? Hip thrust?

p.s. The 1989 Australia Open Champ was Peter Senior and the venue was Kingston Heath GC not
Royal Melbourne GC

Cliffmanley

Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting or swinging,

Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower position?

Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?

One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to be one of the first and most important elements of educated hands…

No my arms don’t feel like noodles, but they do finish high, and hard, usually they pull back in front of my face from almost behind my head. I remember days when I have almost hit my self in the right ear with my club.

My arms do stay in tight to my body but no I don’t fight wrist roll, not usually anyway, there are times at the range when that happens but only very rarely.

No my finish is usually very high, my back swing is fairly high as well, and I do have a lot of shoulder turn, especially for a 48 year old, at least that’s what my kids tell me…. ;-)

I have a firm grip, I have never used a glove so it essential for me to have a firm grip, and my wrists are NEVER firm, they are always loose. I am a feel player always have been.

What is the 5th one?

Cliff,

Sounds like you are swinging… without seeing the motion or pics..
Does Guru have an opinion here?

KOC,
your are a hitter…
I’d love to see some back shots… to see how your right arm is
behaving on the way down..

Cliff sounds like a swinger.

KOCs photos there are of a hitter to my eye but its not KOC:)

Sumerhayes never met LB nor did LB actually meet BD until 2006.

They should put a sticky on this topic. lagpressure has started off a fantastic exchange of ideas, and I also started searching for other accumulator topics in the back catalogue.

Still interested in Guru’s Q:

Which finish swivel option did you take when moving from swinger to hitter and why the choice?

It’s Peter Senior.

Lagpressure,

Great stuff. I really enjoyed the 5th accumulator. Trust a Chinaman like KOC to spoil a good story.

What you describe I have been calling rhythm and teach it by saying keep your shirt buttons up with the club. The opposite to quitting which the golf swing is a “natural” for.

Thanks for expanding our worlds.

The hit/swing stuff is good. Most of us are doing these things and don’t know it. It sounds obvious but if we know what we are doing life gets easier.

I started with McHatton and Ben and was not happy till I found Kykendal and Norman and saw Drive Loading (stiff wristed push).

Swinging is using a rope, hitting, like using a stick with stiff wrists, it depends on what your girlfriend likes the best. Sometimes a clear picture can help. You can do either hard or soft.

Isn’t Senior Edwinized now?

Finish swivel…

I don’t remember the specific component name of my finish swivel.
Haven’t pick up my book in years.. but I do know what I do and why.

I do everything to save as much of my hip rotation until after impact, so I have a lot of #4 to get the club over to the 4rth parallel. Keeping my upper arms packed hard against my body, I have spent #1, #2, and #3..so 4 really has to fire hard. To do this I use the ground, by wrenching my feet together, (squeezing them together hard) firing the left knee into a straight position, and keeping the left wrist partially cocked still. I turn my torso as flat as I can so that the left shoulder is moving away from the ball as far as possible. The hands are firm and stiff. Once I am at the 4rth parallel.. I then fight the direction of the true impact plane (elbow plane) and then use the rotator cuff muscles in the shoulders to raise the upper arms off the body again pulling the club and shaft off of it’s very flat plane and use the #3 pressure point, but this time it is slightly a bit more underneath and I just pull the hole thing up as hard as I can to do everything to keep the club and shaft moving and I like to feel that I am reaching maximum hand speed just past the 4rth parallel. Now this is a feel thing in my attempt or futile attempt to maintain the acceleration of my hands beyond the ball. I actually leaned this technique in a martial arts class. In other words, if you are going to chop through a pile of bricks, you must concentrate on moving your hand past and beyond the point of impact. So whether or not I can hold the flex to the ball or not, it is truly my intent to do so with every swing of the club, from driver to putter.

Now at arriving at my finish, I like to get my torso rotated to it’s maximum angle, I would guess about 30 degree beyond perpendicular. My spine becomes a bit more upright, arms are slightly bent but really I try to finish with them as straight as possible.
The clubface should be at right angles to my shoulders, and I try not to cock my wrists, and with a short iron, my clubshaft might be about 45 degrees down from skyward. Of course with a driver the momentum of the club, will bring it down to below parallel, probably through the ears looking from behind, but I an resisting all of this.

The reason I do so much resistance is to put as much pressure on my pressure points right to the end… PRESSURE IS FEEL!

I do realize that by pulling the clubhead out of orbit, as compared to a swingers dump and full roll hinge release, I lose clubhead speed,
but the amount of feel this puts in my hands gives me the ball control I need to position the golf ball around a course, so I am playing a game of strategy, rather than a game of “rip and find”

By becoming a better athlete, and using things like an impact bag, and a fan club, I got a lot of my power back, but this time I had a swing that didn’t need much oil, and hits consistent golf shots under pressure when you need it most.. and when you are going up against the best in the game, you better be able to repeat it… if you want to have any chance…

To be honest, I wouldn’t be afraid to play anyone on an old style course that requires precise shot making… at least for one round..
anything can happen. Of course assuming we are both using persimmon and blades.. but that is another topic..!

lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? – or maybe you have said and I am too slow to pick it up???

“Parallels” Can you give us a “visual” as to what these refer too to build a clearer picture.

In your finish swivel motion do you keep a Flat Left Wrist or allow it to Bend? For hitters these are both options.

Pressure is indeed feel.
Feel allows us to be aware.
Awaress allows us to control the machine.

lagpressure..is it is not too rude, who are you? ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú or maybe you have said and I am too slow to pick it up???

A bad day at golf is better than a good day at work.

It is for Lagpressure to decide himself, but I believe we have the pleasure of getting years of knowledge from a professional who won a bit more than the Canadian Open. That may have been a little insight, but If i’m on track, there were a further 7 PGA wins you can add to the list.

As they would say in ‘Waynes World’ ” We are not worthy” but shit, a real pleasure to have you on board and the learning curve will only continue with your valued input.

4rthˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìParallels”I guess lag is talking about the release point….Matin Hall used to use 5 times parallels to describe the club parallel to base plane line.

KOC now you just have to have a vid link to that MHall reference:)

Oh, who am I? here is a clue…

http://www.sunbowl.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124

click that link… look for the guy who shot the same score TIger Woods shot 10 years later when he took the title.

that would be me…

Welcom John. Boy was I way off line, from your earlier post indicating a Canadian Open win at -17, I had you pegged for Steve Jones. Never mind, you’ll do:) LOL.

See from your bio you are write into The Golf Machine and your passion for Persimmon. Luvin the info you are putting out and looking forward to you joining the rest of the ‘Brains Trust’ in providing us mugs and the better golfers that head to this forum, your thoughts, incite and instruction.

Few Oaklahoma boys on that list that you would have ‘machine’ chatted too as well.

KOC now you just have to have a vid link to that MHall reference:)

Correction:

The forth time parallel as described by Martin Hall is not release point. I do not have the video put on my utube channel but 1-L-6 stated clearly enough.

Puuurrrfect KOC. Great teamwork.

Trust a Chinaman like KOC to spoil a good story

Sorry…I don’t have this intention.

Dart is having a giggle KOC:)

By the way looking forward to that beer at the end of Sept KOC. Make sure the San Mig is cold.

Yeah, Steve is a great player..
Most of my pro career was in Australia and Canada,
I didn’t go the PGA Q school often but did make the finals
one year, I think 89?

It was a tough call back then because to go through the US Tour school I would have to give up my card in Australia, and if I didn’t make it, I would not have anywhere to play until May.. but really I just loved
golf down in Australia, the courses were much more my style, the old MacKenzie tracks, lots or wind, tough conditions, really gamey ball strikers kind of courses. I really wasn’t big on the stadium golf stuff that was happing over here, I love tough tracks, but fair too. Too many times I would play PGA THIS or TPC THAT and found myself often hitting a fine shot and making double…I don’t mind making bogey or double if I hit a poor shot, but I just couldn’t get into the Pete Dye designs, and everyone over here thought he was god..
The courses seemed silly to me, all the moguls off the fairway, too many flat lies in the fairway, I just couldn’t get a feel for what he was trying to do. I preferred the courses that followed the lay of the land, had a hazard or two around the green that you could work a shot into, but all those railroad ties and ladders down into bunkers.
I think what I am trying to say is that I wasn’t in love with that stuff, but I was in love with Royal Adelaide, or Kingston Heath.

In Australia,
Everyone walked, there were no golf carts anywhere back then… purses were good if you spent your money there.. and I just really liked the world tour-player flavor to the whole thing…I got to play head to head with the games best, Norman, Faldo, and you find out how good your are real fast..(not very!) I never played golf for the money, never a factor for me at all.
I just loved golf and found the pro option as a great vehicle to improve my game. I liked Canada a lot too. I did win the Windsor Charity Classic in 1991 (17 under 68 67 67 69) with persimmon and blades which I still play. Hitting all the way… I liked making birdies down the stretch to win rather than leaking joint oil all over the course and trying to hold on and trust my swinging hinges that were being cut off by the pressure valves in my brain! lol

Hit to win baby!

Is this lag?

Yeah the OSU Boys…

Holder wanted me bad, at that time I was Doyle’s top junior protege and a lot of people were looking at me to be the next Clampett. Tway was leaving the year I was to come in and Holder offered me Tway’s scholarship. It’s a great program, and I was impressed on my recruiting trip there, but when it came down to it, I just was a California kid, and spending 5 years of my life in Stillwater OK just seemed a bit too drastic for me at the time.. I don’t think it was a mistake, I passed on BYU, a bit too straight, and USC I loved but too close to home, (Palos Verdes) so Fresno worked perfect, and I was closer to Doyle and all those great tracks in Monterey too.. Fresno had great support from the community, 5 super courses and we were also hosting the NCAA Championships in 1983. Our team was good too..
My senior year we had Tim Loustalot, Kevin and David Sutherland, Doug Harper who was a two time all American and myself. 5 all Americans going to the NCAA’s in 1986.. pretty strong stuff.

Geeze, that was so long ago, it’s hard to believe that much time has passed.. lol great times a memories…

Sometime I’ll tell you the Kevin Sutherland story…

I had to smile a while back talking to Bobby C. We are the same age and there was him saying he is back in training for the Seniors Tour…....a few comments were passed over the table about “gee thanks for reminding me where the grey hairs are coming from”.

You run across Rich Zohol too?

I watched Bob Estes trying driver out one day in TX. Must have had 20 from the rep and slowly worked out “yeah this one will do.”

Just interested how did you come across ISG? Its a long way from the USAs normal golfing channels.

yes, that is Lag!

A friend of mine from the college days has been putting up some wiki links and got a hold of me so I helped him out with some of the stuff for the page.. it would be nice if a lot of the guys from the past had stuff up there and linked in.. I’m trying to make a list of all the All Americans that went though FSU but the NCAA doesn’t keep a complete list, nor does FSU.. Coach Watney is still there after all these years so he would know, might just have to ask him, or have him do it..

It would be great to see more wiki on G.O.L.F.

and a list of players who have been disciples at one time or another,
and what they have done..

Not sure how that would work and many guys just tinkered with it really.

Ben used to claim Bernhard Langer was one of his students but he only took one lesson..

It really was a cult… lol

still is?

Zokol played a lot when I was up in Canada in the late 80’s…

I was always kind of a controversial guy wherever I went, swinging mops on the range or any # of crazy drills I would do..

Often I used to like to just take divots without a ball.. If I could take a dozen divots that all looked the same it was a good indicator I was swinging well… so one day on the range I hacked out a square about
3×5 feet, and Dick Zokol comes walking up while I was talking to Grant Waite, and he looks at this bare patch on the range and says
“I didn’t know Mark Mc Cumber was playing this week! Grant and I looked at each other, and we weren’t sure if we should laugh, or run..!
he looked kind of pissed off… lol

It was just one of those funny moments…

Less of a “cult” these days as the net has exposed G.O.L.F. to a bigger audience. Still not many teachers of it though growing.

Spike throw your list up here for us.

...thought you might have been Peter Senior…..talking yourself up :) (this post was intended to be 100% humourous)

ISG,

I think I came across this while I was trying to find Greg’s e mail address.. somehow I found a link to this and saw some G.O.L.F. posts and thought it might be fun to learn a few things, share a few things, and maybe even play some golf with some machines if any are around the SF area…

I am finding myself playing a lot more golf lately, maybe because I found a wonderful old school course that is nearby, that not many know about, or maybe just are not interested in anymore, and I go out in the afternoon and play in a stiff wind coming off the SF Bay, and most days I am the only one on the course.. it’s so beautiful, silent,
very zen really, I really don’t like to play with people in carts, and not big on hearing that high pitched driver sound, I find it really disturbing,
like finger nails down a chalkboard is the best way to describe it.

Kris Moe and I are playing soon and we are going out will all old stuff.
This course I play is perfect for persimmon, but if I hit new stuff 300
it just makes a joke of the course, and I really like using all my irons during a round.

MacKenzie said three long irons, four mid irons and three short irons test the golfer well.

Dear Lagpressure,

Nice to have you here. My uploaded photos are indeed Peter Senior. I can see his finish style is similar to Greg Norman…haha…and me :}

Lagpressure,
Thanks for your knowledge and stories keep them coming : )

I’m off to edmington, in canada, in August (pardon spelling)
do have a nice tough track in mind to play there?
Will be heading to the USA but not sure where yet.

I’m interested in how you built your swing? you started with educated hands? the process you went through? How long did it take?

L.P. Have you written a book , bout your days on tour, being a machine boy, ?

Its certainly great to have a new, informative and knowledgeable member in the brains trust.

Hi Lag, I am in N Ireland and am getting coached in the TGM principles by Guru. We’re having big success, you can see shots taken at the 17th at The Old Course which are the closest I can get to ‘before’ and ‘after’.

I’m pretty sure I’m a swinger (I was when I took the wife down to a neighbours party recently haha [joke!]) but can hit with the best of them if a punch shot is called for.

You can see my swings here:

March 2008

January 2008

Road Hole March 2006

bi0mechanic

when you get to Edmonton, go south down to Ponoka and play
Wolf Creek…

It is one of my favorite courses on earth.. a real classic old style track
with lots of natural beauty, a very fair but terrorizing challenge.
The tee shot off the fourth from the left tee is the tightest driving hole I have ever played… I used to wonder if could hit the fairway with a 5 iron.

Great to hear from you lagpressure.
Stillwater’s my home town. Was taught basics by Labron Harris, Sr. as a kid. Played 12 and under with Labron, Jr. and his brother. Not in their league.
I live in Oakland, CA now. I’m interested in the “old school course nearby” that you mention.
I didn’t get serious about the game until ‘86 and picked up Ballard’s book. Joined the Sunnyvale club, a traveling club tournament schedule comprising reasonably priced public courses within 250 mile radius, 58 tournaments a year.
Been a “machiner” for about 3 years now. Retired, I play practice rounds at Monarch Bay, close to home. I study TGM night and day it seems. Totally occupied with it.
There’s a GSE at The Bridges, I understand.

Sorry if this got too personal.

Hi Lag,

My name is Jim and I live in San Jose. I notice that you play with Kris Moe who is a heck-of-a stick. From my understanding, Kris is now teaching Gary Edwin’s right-sided swing. I know that Kris has spent a lot of time with my teacher in Burlingame who is Gary’s right-hand man in the states.

Very interesting posts, welcome aboard!

Jim

Hi Loren,

Let’s go play some golf soon,

I play during the week, free most days with a day two notice..

I have a great old track we can play and golf it around..

send me a contact…

John

Kris is a wonderful teacher, he can make it a fun experience,
and he is no stranger to G.O.L.F. concepts.. We go way back to college days and toured together in Australia and other places..

We are teeing it up soon with persimmon, and I can’t wait to take his money! lol

Great to have a player of your calibre on board.

Can’t say I agree with you on the equipment front, but each to their own.

Thanks Toolish,

It’s nice to be here,

I have always felt that the best way to improve the game is to improve the stroke of the golfer. The equipment is really just fitting to your size, body type and lie, loft all that.

The Golfing Machine offers an incredible opportunity to improve the dynamics of one’s motion. I believe this is where a golfer is best to put their energy, not at the local pro shop with the latest gimmick.

I too agree that the latest isn’t absolutely the greatest. People trying to buy their game are wasting their time unless they work on swing dynamics for sure.

But a larger headed titanium driver with a graphite shaft that is well fitted is a lot easier to hit well and get good distance and forgiveness from than a smaller headed persimmon driver. And perimeter weighted irons with a nice wide sole and some offset are soooo much easier to hit than the butter knife blades!

Gimmicks, sheesh there are a few thrown out there to suck in those bucks. I got into this business via club making and then TGM. Together its a great combo.

I remember a day on the range in PHX with Chuck Evans hitting his old wooden wood out into the back lots. Another chap had a go with it and then his own super duper blooper 400cc effort and it was almost a dead heat. Almost over 300 yards being about +/-10 yards. Fair enough the new club went a little further but it rather proved the point that if you can hit the sweet spot, life is good.

Homer I believe was a fan of blades to know when you were missing the sweet spot. I practice with muscle backs but do not play with them.

Guru I am glad you brought this up about blades…
I have had a few discussions with people about the pros and cons of perimeter weighting and so forth.

The Golfing Machine speaks very loud and clear.

GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT!

The computer can only respond to the information it receives, RELIABLE FEEDBACK is everything. PERFECT feedback comes to your computer (brain) from the sweet spot, through the shaft, through the grip, through your hands and sends a vibration to every cell in your body whether you like it or not.

If you hit the ball 1/2 inch off the sweet spot with a blade iron, you get great NEGATIVE feedback… we know that we must have educated hands, where do you think this education is coming from? From both hitting the sweet spot and NOT hitting the sweet spot. Trial and error over and over…...

Now if you think you are getting ahead of the game by diluting the purity of the sweet spot, I can assure, you are doing yourself no favors by not giving your hands the proper education through reliable feedback. Hopefully you are here to improve in the most efficient manner possible.. and personal mastery of your own golfing potential is on your compass in this great quest.

Now if you insist on slowing your progress down to better G.O.L.F.
keep using those PWI’s… !

If you apply the right physics and geometry with properly educated hands, you can master the art of fine ball striking, I have no doubt…
and you don’t have to hit 500 balls a day to do it. The proper drills and body training can be done (a lot of it at home)... But let me warn you, do not think you can cheat the “sweet spot/ computer interface” that supplies the brain with what it needs to give you PRECISION!

You are kidding aren’t you? If you are ready to listen even a perimeter weighted iron will tell you that you have missed the sweetspot, the technology is not good enough to fully cover your misses. If you can’t feel the miss then you are not allowing yourself to feel it.

Isn’t the general idea of golf to shoot the best score you can? It is not about having the most perfect swing with the most perfect impact. While on course the help of a perimeter weighted club will make your misses less of a problem therefore allowing you to score better, which in the end is the aim of the game.

As for practicing with a blade then playing with perimeter weighted clubs I would think you are tempting fate a bit there too. Learn the feel through mechanics while practicing with one club then grab a different club to play with. I guess you can MOI and weight match the clubs, bend to ensure loft and lie are the same, freq check and spine the shafts to get as close a match as possible, but even then the COG of the heads will be different and the look will be different….that said, I have never tried practicing with a blade, maybe I might learn something.

Isn't Senior Edwinized now?

down and out…did ya get that?

Toolish,

I think it’s like when someone gets TGMed they don’t look different to other golfers they just look better.

Toolish: I guess my take on this is that its fine to beat your educated hands to learn something with the MBack where learning is the key. It is silly if you are not perfect to try to score without as much help as you can find.

I think you will remember my blades I play with are heel and toe weighted rather than pure muscle backs. Still get a good sting from an iffy swing without losing quite as much with the MB.

Just know that each club will fly a different distance unless you have the specs pretty darn close. ie know how far your scoring clubs will go.

Unfortunately I am not kidding…

FEEDBACK IS PARAMOUNT

If you want to improve the precision of your swing, you need to be getting true feedback to educate your hands… it’s all they have..

garbage in garbage out..

The good news is, the better you get, the less this is really an issue..

Cold winter mornings hitting balls sure wakes you up in the learning process. Those rabbit skulled balls give as much feedback as a hammer.

Small story was watching a well known club maker chap called Bill Totten talking to pro from the Harvey Penick golf school. Pro was leaning on a vice at the time. Bill slapped the back of his hand. Pro was not too happy with a “bleep that hurt”. Bill knowing said pro was not the sharpest pencil in the case grabbed a hammer and said “hey put your hand back there”...bugger me he did. Mind you he did remove the hand pretty fast when he realised there was a hammer in play. The point was hand or hammer you get feedback. I think they were talking about sensicore shafts at the time rather than iron head types.

The more feedback you get the faster you could well learn.

I may be missing the point here but I can only take it as I read it. So prior to making a statement on this topic, I will err on cautious side (I have learnt from my past mistakes! haha) and seek further clarification…

Lag Pressure:

Are you recommending that even rank beginners and average joe hacker, who struggles to break 100, ditch PWI’s for blades in the name of improving their game? Or are you aiming this statement at the more intermediate/advanced golfer who wants to go as far as they can in golf?

I think it is important to understand that everyone has different reasons for playing golf. For some, it’s an excuse to walk in the park with good comrades. On the other end of the spectrum, there are those who seek a greater spiritual discipline, much like a mystical martial art, where one learns from a guru and walks the hot ember path on their way to a bed of nails that just might give a glimpse of enlightenment.

If I were to play a 7600 yard course, I don’t think persimmon would be the best option to shoot a fine round. I would play the gear that the course was set up for. To take a modern atom smasher out to Cypress Point, for me, that would make no sense either. Holes like 17 would be so out of context it would really be silly. Vic Wilk gave me a driver that I hit 50 yards further than my favorite Eye O Matic persimmon. Who am I kidding? Only me really.

Again, this is just speaking for myself, but my goal each round is to make good golf swings… to feel the correct sensations that make my motion one that I believe will lead to good golf shots.. All I can do is commit my variable energy to making good solid impact from tee to green. My score is a reflection of the collective motions I have made that day. Scoring is only the by product of my activities.

Aussie_Bomber

Your question is only one that you can answer..
What are your motivations and reasons for playing golf?

For me, it was all about the pristine pursuit of highest excellence.

Here is a quick story,

I was in College when the Ping Eye 2 came out. Our coach ordered a set for everyone on the team and believed we would have an advantage on the competition if we used them. This sounded good to all of us… so I played and practiced with them for a month. I wasn’t really sure I was hitting them better, so I went back to my blades. When I did, I couldn’t hit them at all! It was shocking, and I thought, what the hell did I do? The pings were not telling me where dead center was, my swing therefore got somewhat sloppy, and I didn’t feel this was the right direction for me to go. Other’s felt the same way, and a few of the guys stayed with the pings.. the one’s that stayed with the pings were not the best strikers I can tell you that.. I would say with some certainty that cavity backs hurt the pure strikers, and help the not so pure strikers. So from the tour perspective, I would again guess that it didn’t change the winning score each week, but it brought a lot more guys into the battle to make the cut on Friday.

For me, the choice was easy…

If you were my student, and you said, “John, I want to be a fantastic ball striker within two years and I am ready to do the work, drills, and give it my all” we would be in my garage fitting you with a nice set of blades, adjusting the lofts and lies, blow torch and all…!

Lag Pressure:

Even though you didn’t directly answer my question you indirectly clarified it for me with your post previous to mine and with the final paragraph in reference to me.

My point was unless your goal is to be the very best ball striker around switching to blades for improvement would not be an absolute. For the average hacker that wants to enjoy their game, ease some of the frustrations the game offers, not devote serious time to practice and improve their scores as much as possible, I believe they should take advantage of every piece of modern golfing technology they can… PWI’s, 460cc Titanium drivers, etc..

I understand you are a purist, I consider myself a modernist – 400-460cc’s of Titanium all the way.. ; )

As far as my goals…

I am now purely a Long Driver, my goals are to hit the ball as far as is humanly possible! I am driven and motivated to maximise every potential I possess. Without sounding arrogant to the rest of ISG or to any of my Long Driving friends that read my posts, I want to be the longest driver in Australia and possibly become Australia’s first World Long Drive Champion! I only say this because I believe in aiming high – you are only bounded by the limitations you place on yourself. The rest is about working harder and smarter then your competition, seeking the best advice you can get and having an unwaivering determination to succeed.

great minds think alike Lag :)

On Wednesday after golf, I lifted an old persimmon 3 wood (Wilson Staff Tour) out of my locker and put it in the boot to use next time I’m out. I’ll fire the 5,7 and 9 irons from my Ram Tour Grind set in as well.

Lets see what my striking is like after a year of using Cally X-20s!!!!!

i agree that if you want the feedback you have to play blades plus they have come along way since i started with my Maxfli dp-30

I still bring my old Apex 1 iron to the range to practice with, I always felt that it helped. My current set is KZG ZO blades but I do carry a hybrid now. I learned to play with blades and when I bought new irons a few years back on the launch monitor and on the range I hit the blades better than the cavity backs. Maybe it is mental for me.

Aussie_Bomber

Good luck with the long drive competitions..
Maximum swing radius, four barrel power package, full roll duel horizontal hinges, drag or float loading too…!

Maximize your swinging techniques I would think to achieve your goals..

The endless belt effect….....................................................

Seve grew up as a kid having only a blade 1 iron..
learned to hit flop and even bunker shots with it….

talk about feedback..

Certainly there are two schools of thought on golf and technology.

When you make radical changes to a game that is steep in tradition, you are bound to have a lot of controversy..

From my viewpoint I see golf in three ages..

The hickory age

The steel/ persimmon age

The Titanium age

The wonderful thing about TGM is that you can apply the technological concepts put forth by Homer and they would be applicable to any age, or style of play.

The hickory age, your average expert would drive about 200-220
Steel shafts put that same player out 240-260
Now 280 plus.

I wonder if baseball went to grapefruit over-sized titanium bats, and a hotter ball… how would that effect the game? They could make bigger ball parks I suppose, and of course pitchers would be wearing protective gear too…

I see chess and golf as games of strategy and skill.. the different pieces are like different clubs in the bag, in that they have different powers… would chess be more exciting and enjoyable if the pawns were given new powers? could move two spaces instead of one and also have full diagonal domain? Maybe the king could move like a queen?

If these changes were made in these sports or games, would that give more enjoyment to the player and or the fans as well?

Lagpressure, a belated response.
Here’s a contact, a surrogate short-lived e-mail address:

majors68667@mypacks.net

Lag pressure:

Thanks for the advice, really appreciate. I don’t understand any of it, as I have only started reading TGM a couple of days ago but once I develop an understanding I will put it into play.

Now I have to comment in regards to your comments with regards to progress in technology.

With regards to baseball, aluminium, titanium and composite bats have been in play since the 1970’s. They were initially developed in the 1920’s. They are utilised in every form of baseball up to Major League level. Their non use in Major League level has nothing to do with a traditionalist point of view, it is a safety issue! The infielders and pitchers would be in lethal danger if MLB power hitters were in possession of metal bats! Fans would have no drama seeing more home runs. As a former baseball player who played at a national level, I can say that metal bats are in full usuage in International competition such as the Olympics – Did it destroy baseball? Hell no! Scores at the Olympic level between the top nations have not blown out to 20 run contests!

With regards to chess, do they not have stop clocks in play at most international competitions to speed up the pace of play? Chess discovered a long time ago that people would not watch 8 hour matches – hence they progressed to attract fans back.

In regards to golf, is putting a halt on technology hurting anybody but the average Joe Hacker? The US Open last year saw a score of +5 win the tournament, with all modern technology in play! Courses can grow deeper rough and narrower fairways and reduce lower scoring, this is evident in the US Open. The US Open record for the lowest tournament score is -12, prior to Tiger the lowest score was -8 which has been achieved 6 times, the first being in 1948 with Ben Hogan. Is technology on this stage really hurting the game?

What do fans want to see? Low scoring, big drives, excitement. Why are players like Tiger and John Daly so popular? They possess an exciting power game that puts bums in seats! Would fans turn off the TV or not show up to tournaments if guys started to regularly shoot in the 50’s? If guys started to hit booming drives? I think you would find you would attract more fans!

With the advent of Gen-Y instant gratification and adreneline charged excitement is craved in sports. Home Runs, 300+ metre drives, birdie fests are what the fans are wanting to see. Does breaking records hurt the viewing capacity of sports? No way, it enhances it. Majority of sports fans watch the Olympic games in the hope that someone will run faster, jump higher or further than has ever been humanly possible before. The athletes know this, they also know financial rewards for such achievements are high – hence the drugs in sport epidemic. If fans accepted and embraced mediocre performance would anybody hit the steriod road?

I believe Golf is in a crisis period. I have been speaking to people high up in Golf’s organisational bodies in recent times whilst planing my own tournament. Sponsorship dollars are drying up, participation rates are falling, TV audiences are dropping. There will always be a place for golf’s traditional aspect. However more needs to be done to add an excitement value back to golf. How I don’t know? I do know other sports are realising this and are looking at ways to “hype” up their contests.

Cricket here is a game steeped in tradition. Did World Series Cricket lift the profile of the sport bring new fans back to the game? Has the advent of Twenty-20 taken cricket to a new revival? Yes. What do fans crave? Excitement. Short duration, Instant gratification.

There will always be a place for traditional golf. However with the advent of the sports marketing revolution, new forms of the game must be developed to satisfy what is a new adreneline hungry sports public. (IMHO) Traditionalist may frown upon the advent of Long Drive contests but I truly believe that golf should embrace the concept to give adreneline hungry fans an outlet. Matchplay golf is a successful format in this respect – head to head battles, rivalries.. sell tickets!

Progress will never be halted, I think for the sake of golf’s growth it should be embraced! Golf’s tradition will never die, let’s not let its marketability as a great sport die either.

I am ready to be spanked on the forum now! But I am happy put the cards on the table. My goal is to see golf flourish, not stagnate

Less of a ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìcult” these days as the net has exposed G.O.L.F. to a bigger audience. Still not many teachers of it though growing.

Spike throw your list up here for us.

For some reason the upload is not working. I’ll keep trying.

These are great points, and certainly relevant arguments..

There have always been long drive contests, and I agree that they do make a hit with fans, when I was playing the Canadian Tour in the late 80’s a fellow named Kelly Murray used to have long drive clinics each week, and he would be doing all kinds of things like hitting balls off the top of the CN Tower in Toronto or over some gorge or river… people loved it.. but they would still come out to watch the tournament too.
even when Kelly would miss the cut…

I don’t see a problem with putting a clock on golfers or chess players..
speed of play has been a problem for decades.. If I were king I would make a few rules changes to the game for sure, with regard to lost balls, and provisionals..

Question?

Are they still using wooden Cricket bats? is the ball hotter now?
how has that effected things?

If baseball went the high tech route in MLB, would fans really like to see shortstops hitting 100 homers a year?

If they made the bat 3 times as thick, easier to hit…? would that be good?

We could eliminate 3 putts in golf by making the hole 5 times a big.
We’d see a lot more golfer’s in the 70’s for sure, and tour pros would routinely be in the 50’s … Is that good for the game? it’s traditions?
maybe, why not?

I’m just putting these questions out there…

I think most believed golf was a game of tradition once everyone got used to steel shafts and the 250 yard drive in the 1930’s.. it really didn’t change much for the next 50 years.. nothing major really..

Golf is a different game now, and the cat is too far out of the bag for things to go back..

Is Tiger the best ever? I have no idea… not even a clue..
If he was playing persimmon with similar gear and shooting 20 under at Augusta with blade irons similar to those of golfs past… If Augusta was still only 6800 as it used to be with no rough .. we could draw some safer conclusions…

The Augusta of the past was a completely different game than it is now. It looks more like a US Open.. target golf and you are seeing more winners that look like US Open type winners. Andy North, Scott Simpson were not the top players of their time.. good golfers no doubt, but the Masters always seemed to champion the world’s top players. Mike Weir is a fine player, but Masters champion? Zach Johnson? I used to beat Mike Weir.. I never used to beat Nick Faldo. With all due respect for Mike and Zach, my point is I think the insane rough at US Opens makes it more of a crap shoot. It saddens me a bit to see Augusta have to take such measures to try to keep the scores from getting to low… I really don’t think today’s players are much better, the equipment is for sure better.

If you have time, watch THIS regarding golf club technology….

Tom Wishon “Past, Present, and Future of Golf Club Technology”

Lag Pressure:

I am pleased with your supportive comments re Long Drive, you are one of few traditionalists that have that view point. We as Long Drivers are not trying to become “Golf” but we believe that we could enhance the image of golf with the Gen-Y crowd and adreneline junky sports fans and possibly attract more people to be involved with what is a great game. Long Drive’s growth in the US is phenomenal, Australia is in its infancy. However recent talks I have had with some “power brokers” in Australian Golf indicate that they are starting to recognise our value in total Golf sport promotion. Talk of adding Long Drive events to major golf tournaments/pro-ams/junior events as spectacle to provide total golfing entertainment value for all who attend is definitely on the horizon. Hell we would invite any tour pro or PGA pro into a Long Drive event to promote the game of Golf. It saddens me that we lost the promotion skills of Paul McNamee to AFL football as Long Drive exhibitions were not far away at major golf tournaments.

With Regards to other issues:

Would MLB fans reject such a development to see more homeruns? How big was the obsession with Barry Bonds getting to the record? How big was the race between McGuire and Sosa? Why do funs love the All Star Homerun derby? It is giving them what they want to see, massive displays of excitement! I can tell you on a international level “new fad hi tech bats” have made no difference to home run infested games and high scoring encounters. Games are still strategic and 1-0 affairs between top class nations!

Your argument about making bigger, wider bats goes to the extreme but I can see your point.

Cricket bat development over the years has certainly changed. Bats are thicker, edges have been streamlined and wood has been redistributed to provide more power. Has it hurt the game? No, the human element is still in play. Bowlers have improved. The cricket ball has improved and changed with balls swinging more now then in the past.

As athletic conditioning improves so too does performance. Golf is only starting to display this with Tiger possessing a more athletic phase of development. It will continue to evolve.

Not all change is bad, the world around us is constantly evolving, peoples values are changing. If we stand still as a sport, we get over taken by others that provide for the public’s desire for instant gratification and craving of high levels of excitement/entertainment. I can understand your frustration on a purists level and also agree with your beliefs as far as not all change is positive. But sadly it is inevitable in today’s modern society and unfortunately golf cannot remain untouched by it.

I have never been concerned about golf as a popularity contest…between other sports.

In high school, golf was for nerds and geeks.. the cool guys played football or baseball… even cooler was to drop out and surf…

I didn’t like being so uncool, but somehow I found myself dating a future Playboy centerfold anyway.. go figure.. she thought golf was cool.. go figure! lol

I have always loved long drive contests… I think the last one I was in was in 1986 NCAA Championships at Wake Forest. Hit it 297 and finished 7th with persimmon.. I always considered myself pretty average in length so that was fun to finish that high..

I hear people hit it like 400 yards plus now in the contests.. I have really been out of that loop.

Looks like we’ve hi jacked this thread..

Lets get back to G.O.L.F.

Im not attacking this from a coolness perspective, I am interested in golf being more marketable, getting back lost sponsorship dollars and reversing the current participation and TV audience decline… but its not going to be solved in a forum thread. I enjoyed the chat though…

You are quite correct with players hitting 400 plus yards in competition. Big Mike Dobbyn recently set the longest drive record with a 551 yard bomb at a charity event!!

Back to G.O.L.F

KOC

Thank you for the Tom Wishon Lecture… I
Tom may know a lot about technology in golf equipment,
but Tom does not know G.O.L.F or he would not have said
what he believes to be true about the future of golf equipment
and custom fitting to a players personal swing. It’s amazing he
can stand so close to the forest and not see it.

Congrats to all of you that are here, Tom is looking in the wrong direction..

On another note,
I have a nice set of 1952 Tommy Armour Silver Scott Irons
and a set of 50’s persimmon MacGregors.

Ok gentleman, place your bets,
He can take any technology to the course and I’ll go out with crappy old antiquities and a lot of lag pressure,

I know where I’ll have my wager..

Lagpressure,
I can see your point as well, In fact when I fit people, I get the irons made to old standard lofts, modern equipment the lofts are lower and golfers can’t hit them and this is why the only use up to 5irons, a 5iron loft and length of today is equivalent to a tradtional loft of a 3iron, so imagine the loft of what a three iron of today is equal to.
We aren’t hitting the ball any further, but it’s big companies marketing to sell longer hitting clubs, delofting irons, has destroyed alot of peoples golf and have alot to answer for.
I am with you technology hasn’t really improved all they have done is changed lofts and added headaches to my students.
Since I have taken this approach and gone back to traditional lofts my students games have improved out of sight, then can at least get the ball in the air.

Wishon goes on and on and never addresses the most absolutely important fundamental in golf…PROPER IMPACT ALIGNMENTS.

YOU MUST SHOW THE GOLFER WHERE THEY SHOULD BE, SET THEIR CLUBS TO THAT IDEAL AND FORCE THAT SOFTWARE INTO THEIR COMPUTER! usually much flatter than where they are now..

Lie angle is SO important.. most golfers hands come in way too high, they go in for a fitting, then are doomed to when they are fitted with irons that are too upright.. (not for their current swing, but for their proper impact alignments where they should be)

HOW LOUD CAN I SCREAM THIS!!!

The flatter they can swing the straighter they will hit it. Tall people may have an advantage with certain G.O.L.F. dynamics but..

Have you ever tried to come over the top and hit a big pull shot or push one way right…. hitting a teed ball off your knees?

When you come over the top from a knee shot you hit it lower…
and lower is usually IN PLAY!

Ok,

A secret is coming to you all…

Has anyone ever studied a martial arts form that addressed the Chi center of the body?

Anyone know where this is?

I took a Ta’i Chi course from a master instructor, myself knowing nothing, I took him to the golf course and he watched me hit shots
and afterward he bowed to me and called ME his master! lol

As golfers we have the potential to master the true Chi energy center of the body.

KOC

Thank you for the Tom Wishon Lecture… I
Tom may know a lot about technology in golf equipment,
but Tom does not know G.O.L.F or he would not have said
what he believes to be true about the future of golf equipment
and custom fitting to a players personal swing. It's amazing he
can stand so close to the forest and not see it.

Congrats to all of you that are here, Tom is looking in the wrong direction..

On another note,
I have a nice set of 1952 Tommy Armour Silver Scott Irons
and a set of 50's persimmon MacGregors.

Ok gentleman, place your bets,
He can take any technology to the course and I'll go out with crappy old antiquities and a lot of lag pressure,

I know where I'll have my wager..

Do you want to take a long drive wager??? hahaha… ;)

Sure, but you only get one swing and it has to land in a 17 yard fairway..!

No worries, what’s the wager??

Just because you are long doesn’t mean you are not accurate! ;)

Wishon goes on and on and never addresses the most absolutely important fundamental in golf…PROPER IMPACT ALIGNMENTS.

YOU MUST SHOW THE GOLFER WHERE THEY SHOULD BE, SET THEIR CLUBS TO THAT IDEAL AND FORCE THAT SOFTWARE INTO THEIR COMPUTER! usually much flatter than where they are now..

Lie angle is SO important.. most golfers hands come in way too high, they go in for a fitting, then are doomed to when they are fitted with irons that are too upright.. (not for their current swing, but for their proper impact alignments where they should be)

HOW LOUD CAN I SCREAM THIS!!!

The flatter they can swing the straighter they will hit it. Tall people may have an advantage with certain G.O.L.F. dynamics but..

Have you ever tried to come over the top and hit a big pull shot or push one way right…. hitting a teed ball off your knees?

When you come over the top from a knee shot you hit it lower…
and lower is usually IN PLAY!

That one should go in the meditation file. It is should be the first thought after you hit a pull hook.

Ok,

A secret is coming to you all…

Has anyone ever studied a martial arts form that addressed the Chi center of the body?

Anyone know where this is?

I took a Ta'i Chi course from a master instructor, myself knowing nothing, I took him to the golf course and he watched me hit shots
and afterward he bowed to me and called ME his master! lol

As golfers we have the potential to master the true Chi energy center of the body.

The secret is to keep the center working past impact (sustain the Lag ). Usually softer and slower than you think.

Lagpressure,
I’m not part of Tom Wishom camp
I agree with you and I believe alot of clubfitters, need a good boot in the arse for not fitting correctly, I was introduced to T.G.M from day one of my golfing days and taught to fit by Another T.G.M guy who is my coach, who taught me to fit to Proper Impact Alignments, I dislike this hand measurement fitting and in static position, not in dynamic with Proper Impact Alignments, I wish the clubfitting world would take on board what you have said. And thankyou I’m glad to hear there is someone out there who can speak these words loud and clear.
Thankyou lagpressure for your contribution and this has helped me now clarify what I have been doing as a coach and a fitter to be the right way of do things.
Thankyou for sharing your information so far I have learnt a wealth of knowledge off you, your information has helped me becoming a better T.G.M coach, thankyou

The secret is to keep the center working past impact (sustain the Lag ). Usually softer and slower than you think.

BIO,

Oh, such truth there…! The other day I was playing an old Miles Davis record, and watching the record spin around on the player… I had the same thoughts, how slow it seems to turn right around the core, but the outer edge, you can’t even keep your eye it, as it moves so fast,
only 33 1/2 rpm.

Of course the difference being that in golf we are accelerating the center. Something must be accelerating it. What is this?

I am always amazed at how “in the dark” people are about the importance of acceleration in golf. Most people don’t know what acceleration is.. they equate acceleration to speed. If I have one thing to tell a golfer of any level, it is usually a quick lesson in the law of acceleration, and then to move their perceived point of maximum speed much further ahead in the swing than they think. Most golfers believe they are trying to reach maximum speed at the ball. The problem is… that to do this…your perception must be that maximum speed is be reached after the ball.. long after the ball really.

Martial arts teaches that a strike must be focused beyond the point of impact… why? sounds all too familiar.

The golf swing is not a conglomeration of static positions. It is a motion, constantly moving and flowing within the discipline of a cohesive body tension. If a golfer is striving for a particular position in their swing, or look, they must work on a position that is past their intended adjustment. All positions, once the swing starts it’s journey, are a product of motions and dynamics.

If I want better impact alignments, I will work feverishly on what is happening at the 4rth parallel, I can swing or hit into that position. Even better yet, nothing will effect my 4rth parallel alignments than what is happening at my finish. Nobody understood this better than Moe Norman. Moe held his impact alignments right to his finish on every shot, every time. It may have looked strange, but the ball never thought so!!!

Does anyone know where this “Chi” center is?

DART,

Your quote there…!

The secret is to keep the center working past impact (sustain the Lag ). Usually softer and slower than you think.

YES YES YES!!!!

Lagpressure,
Would this be the hip pivot, which is driven by your lower inner core stomach muscles?

Seve grew up as a kid having only a blade 1 iron..
learned to hit flop and even bunker shots with it….

talk about feedback..

I believe it was a 5-iron but hey, you probably played with him.

I still bring my old Apex 1 iron to the range to practice with, I always felt that it helped. My current set is KZG ZO blades but I do carry a hybrid now. I learned to play with blades and when I bought new irons a few years back on the launch monitor and on the range I hit the blades better than the cavity backs. Maybe it is mental for me.

I’ve had a apex 1 iron that belonged to MrHogan in Bag it was great!! He had ground the top edge so it looked like a Knife unfortunalty dad has it now.

The Chi core

Dantian ˆÝ¬½’Ä¢ˆÝ¬½¬±ˆÝ¬½’Ñ¢ˆÝ¬¼’ǨˆÝ¬½–ˆÝ¬½¬µˆÝ¬½¬¢ˆÝ¬½’Ñ¢) Or “elixir field”. The focal point for internal meditative techniques, specifically the physical center of gravity located in the abdomen three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel.

Now, knowing this ancient understanding, when my Ta'i Chi master, watched me rapid fire a line of golf balls alternating each one with a 5 yard draw then fade in succession, the role of student – teacher was immediately switched or polarized. He realized that, as I was hitting these shots, my club shaft was dissecting the ancient ˆÝ¬½’Ä¢ˆÝ¬½¬±ˆÝ¬½’Ñ¢ˆÝ¬¼’ǨˆÝ¬½–ˆÝ¬½¬µˆÝ¬½¬¢ˆÝ¬½’Ñ¢ through the impact area. He saw it right away and had never played golf in his life, then simply bowed to HIS new master…!

I never took another Ta’i Chi class again, and he never took up golf…
the only thing that changed was the placement of the master’s crown from his head to mine.

My point here is to share that we as golfers have an incredible opportunity to not only understand some of the greatest secrets of humanity, but to actually apply some of the highest forms of metaphysical expression known in the universe…

In other words, this can be extremely powerful stuff, that can extend far beyond the golf course.

I don’t want to sound too cosmic here, but there is a great saying by
Paramahansa Yogananda

“The seach for perfection is constant and clear”

Homer unlocked that door for Ben, Ben unlocked it for me, given that opportunity, all any of us can do is turn the knob and enter, but only by our own free will, what we do with that knowledge and experience can only be guided by us.. one subject at a time.

I still bring my old Apex 1 iron to the range to practice with, I always felt that it helped. My current set is KZG ZO blades but I do carry a hybrid now. I learned to play with blades and when I bought new irons a few years back on the launch monitor and on the range I hit the blades better than the cavity backs. Maybe it is mental for me.

I've had a apex 1 iron that belonged to MrHogan in Bag it was great!! He had ground the top edge so it looked like a Knife unfortunalty dad has it now.

betting is illegal at Bushwood Sir

Nick,

Did you get my number?

Paul H.

Cliffmanley

Without seeing your swing I would ask you this as far as hitting or swinging,

Do your arms and wrists feel like wet noodles through the hitting area?
Is your finish kind of high and then maybe falls to a lower position?

Or do you feel like your arms stay in tight to your body through impact
and you are fighting any kind of roll of the wrists?
Does your finish feel around the body and then up?

One of the great things I learned from Doyle was the concept of the hands being very firm on the club (grip) but the wrists totally free and flexible. Most people associate a firm grip with stiff wrists, and a light grip with loose wrist. Doyle really taught me how to have a very firm grip with very loose wrists. I believe this to be one of the first and most important elements of educated hands…

Well Lagpressure, I have video taped my swing, it has told me something I wasn’t aware of, I’m taking it back inside so there is some work for me to do with that. However if you fill like a looksee, then go here…
Cliffs swing from behind, driver

Cliff,
Go back to basic Alignments, your aiming so far right, This is a key factor to half your swing problems, Work on getting right your alignments, Put a shaft down when practicing, Read thread on why golfers aim right, Use the preshot mentioned, Aiming right contributes to OTT. you’ll be amazed how much your game will improve when you correct this first.And all alignments

Yeah thanks paul i’ll give you call this week to tee something up
Nick

Hi Cliff,

I wouldn’t worry so much about your backswing inside motion, I have seen many fine golfers pull it inside and shoot 66. Bobby Jones?

I agree that Bio has diagnosed a faulty alignment situation, I believe the problem has to do with the arms and hands not being properly guided by the motion of the body.

In most simple terms it looks very handsy… disconnected. It’s a really common problem. Golf just doesn’t work that way with much success.

Try this first,

If we think of the address position as having the shoulders at
(left 3 o clock) (right 9 o clock) then turn them back to 6 and 12 respectively. Place the hands no farther than 9. On your finish your right shoulder is to be at 6 and even better 5 o clock. Of course the left will be at 12 and better yet 11. Finish your hands at 3 and no more than 2 o clock. This will get your body doing most of the work.

Take 100 swings a day, until you feel you have it down. It should hurt a bit, and put you out of breathe. You should feel some new muscles being used in the lower back area. Make sure you straighten you right leg on the backswing, and the left on the follow through with a nice sitting position in the middle.

Once you feel you have it down, take some divots without a ball,
and make sure they all look the same more or less. If you can’t take consistent looking divots, you have little chance of hitting consistent looking golf shots. Remember, the ball is just in the way of your motion. When you get to the point that the divots look good, line up 10 balls in a line and then just strike them one after another.. Don’t try to hit them far, just try to hit them solid. Notice where they go..
Are they going somewhere they usually don’t? If you are lining up to the right, your brain is just doing what it needs to do, because your motion is of such a nature to pull or hook shots. Thank your brain for doing it’s job, Once you get your body doing the work and not your arms and hands, your swing plane alignments will improve, your divots will be straight, and now the ball has a chance to take it’s directions from your new impact alignments, meaining good golf shots.

Garbage in garbage out… precision in precision out…

Lagpressure:

Your martial arts analogy makes perfect sense. I have trained in a number of disciplines and when you stated striking beyond the target the alarm bells went off.

In baseball it is the same the power point is beyond the ball (target). The ball powers through the ball.

The same thing should occur in golf should it not? We become so ball focussed many of us tend to hit at the ball rather then through it.

Is this what Homer referred to as feeling like the clubhead throws the ball? (2-M-1)

Can you have a look at the SWING FAST or HIT HARD thread? Would love your input…

AB,

I have never owned a swing speed meter, but I think it would be imperative for you to have one if your goal is to launch into the record books for all things Long Drive..

Homer is correct in that separation speed is not only effected by club head speed prior to impact but also speed after impact. It is not hard to understand that the greater the clubhead speed after impact the more energy is being transfered into the ball… sustaining lag pressure and holding the line of compression, and maintaining a pre stressed shaft through the impact area. Whether or not high speed cameras, radar or other means of scientific monitoring applications prove or disprove what is actually happening with regard to torque, shaft flex, material density compression, and on and on… educated hands with the help of the computer will make the necessary fine tuning adjustments for you. The bottom line is that your INTENT is to maximize acceleration through the hitting area. For this to happen, you must feel, or perceive that maximum hand speed is happening well past impact. Your ability to actually approach this “Holy Grail” will have to do with many things, and there are all kinds of drills and exercises you can do to move things in this direction.

Acceleration translates into lag pressure which translates into feel, which for me translates into my ability to feel the club head in my hands though the 1 – 2 and 3 pressure points. If I can feel the club the ball is my oyster, and I can draw, fade, adjust trajectory and allow for the magic to flow from my educated hands into golf shots that do exactly what I have envisioned in my minds eye, hitting the green, spinning the right way towards the flag and maybe even dropping into the cup from anywhere within my range of distance possibilities. It’s the most wonderful thing when all the science that we study becomes nothing more than a look, intent, a motion, and a result that is the product of our fine tuned intuition.

Is this what Homer referred to as feeling like the clubhead throws the ball? (2-M-1)

This is a very good analogy as to what masterful golf feels like..
The fact that Homer could extrapolate such a feeling into words is stunningly beautiful..

This is a classic example of “Learning Feel From Mechanics”

LP:

I actually purchased a swing speed radar awhile back to make my training a little more analytical. The back fence of my practice facility is a 270 m (300 yard carry). I had been hitting it over the back for awhile when I decided to incorporate a radar into my practice as I could not tell if equipment or technique changes were producing quality results. By having a radar on my practice sessions I was able to see any changes by the changes I produced in speed.

However this only measures approach speed. I have had a top approach speed of 143 mph, however I felt some of my best drives (as far as the ball accelerating faster – reaching the back fence quicker) have come from drives in the 132-135 mph zone. Which made me ask was there something else involved?

I have only just started to read TGM. Homer’s statements with regards to the ball inheriting 70% of approach speed but 100% of the separation speed made sense to me.

Homer’s further statement of the Clubhead feeling like it throws the ball also struck a chord with me. When I feel I hit my longest drives it feels like the ball/clubface impact occurs over a longer time frame. The ball seems to “stick” to the face!

I have been ridiculed by some for this statement who believe impact physics remain stagnant and clubhead approach speed is the only influencing factor on ball speed. There is something else almost “magical” that I feel at times occurring during contact – and this definitely feels like a longer contact interval and therefore a better energy transfer.

I wish that I could put into more technical terms to create understanding but this is the best I can do.

I sense Homer eluding to the fact that something else is possible in impact physics through his statements in 2-E, 2-C-0 and 2-M-1

I apologise for my explanations as I have been a feel player due to the fact that there were no long drive coaches available and most “traditional” coaches couldn’t understand that maximising power is my ultimate goal over accuracy. I therefore had to teach my self to produce higher swing speed and harder contact via taking mechanics, translating them into baseball terms and feeling my way into them. I now have TGM and guys like Bio, Guru, Dart etc who can explain optimal mechanics to me. So I am endeavouring to improve my descriptions.

You stated:

“Your ability to actually approach this ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìHoly Grail” will have to do with many things, and there are all kinds of drills and exercises you can do to move things in this direction.”

Can you please elaborate on the types of drills and exercises I can be doing to achieve this?

Many thanks for your response.

AB

Anyone saying that ball speed is only a result of pre impact clubhead speed does not fully understand the properties of inertia, acceleration, compression and so forth. Just smile and continue your pursuits.

As far as drills, do you have any video of your swing I could view?
Drills are like prescriptions really… I would like to have some kind of concept of what component selections you have working, power package assembly points and so forth…

Even a series of high speed photos would be quite helpful..

Anyone saying that ball speed is only a result of pre impact clubhead speed does not fully understand the properties of inertia, acceleration, compression and so forth. Just smile and continue your pursuits.

As far as drills, do you have any video of your swing I could view?
Drills are like prescriptions really… I would like to have some kind of concept of what component selections you have working, power package assembly points and so forth…

Even a series of high speed photos would be quite helpful..

Not as yet LP, I don’t have access to video camera at the present time. But I will see if I can find someone who could do it for me and then I will post it on a thread – so that everyone can pull me to pieces! hahaha…

Thanks though LP

I’ll try to put up some swings as well, I don’t think I have taped my swing for at least 10 years, but I can’t imagine it would look too much different than it did then.

It’s nice to be playing again, this time truly on my own terms, and I think for the first time since high school, I have the proper motivation.

I love playing GREAT tracks, l love wind, lots of side hill lies, and I need to be tested well with all twelve clubs in my bag. The course I am playing now is just such a find… if I play late around 4pm, I usually can walk a round in less than 3 hours, and usually don’t see anyone on the course at all. Peaceful, solitude, beautiful views of the SF bay, and a great challenge. I am still trying to find the right shots for me to play it properly. Persimmon and blades put me in the right places on the course, as the architect would have intended. I think a 65 or 66 is within my grasp, as I have shot 70 my last two rounds there. It reminds me a lot of The New South Wales Golf Club. Windy, trouble everywhere… bad swings equal bogeys or worse. The third hole is a 190 yard three par into a stiff right to left wind to a postage stamp green from an elevated tee. The left side of the green is bush. If you miss the green right the ball rolls down a hill into a hazard. You just simply have to hit the green or you make double! It is such an important hole because it just sets the tone of the round early. If you make double you are playing catch up all day.
If you survive or better yet, make a two, you really have a great chance for a super round. I am very excited to be playing a course that interests me… it’s been a long time..

A.B,
when I fly down tomorrow, I’ll bring my video camera, do some footage to show L.P ,May even have to pull out the grease gun and grease up my hinges and do some footage of myself and show people educated hands applied with G.O.L.F with a busted back.
I’m very keen to measure your kinetic chain.

L.P that awesome, I admire your passion and the desire to play.
Thanks for the information and A.B’s questions, you filled a few grey areas I always questioned myself. And what A’B was speaking about isn’t an uncommon occurance,and see this with students often. I was shot down in flames cause I stated according to several different L.M’s , I had a swing speed of 85mph on average the od 90 max. At 13th beach there is a hole 285 metres and iflew it on the green, I was told I was bull dust this isn’t possible, 10 guys seen me do it, I could never Answer how or why it happened, but now I have answer why thankyou

Hi Cliff,

I wouldn't worry so much about your backswing inside motion, I have seen many fine golfers pull it inside and shoot 66. Bobby Jones?

I agree that Bio has diagnosed a faulty alignment situation, I believe the problem has to do with the arms and hands not being properly guided by the motion of the body.

In most simple terms it looks very handsy… disconnected. It's a really common problem. Golf just doesn't work that way with much success.

Try this first,

If we think of the address position as having the shoulders at
(left 3 o clock) (right 9 o clock) then turn them back to 6 and 12 respectively. Place the hands no farther than 9. On your finish your right shoulder is to be at 6 and even better 5 o clock. Of course the left will be at 12 and better yet 11. Finish your hands at 3 and no more than 2 o clock. This will get your body doing most of the work.

Take 100 swings a day, until you feel you have it down. It should hurt a bit, and put you out of breathe. You should feel some new muscles being used in the lower back area. Make sure you straighten you right leg on the backswing, and the left on the follow through with a nice sitting position in the middle.

Once you feel you have it down, take some divots without a ball,
and make sure they all look the same more or less. If you can't take consistent looking divots, you have little chance of hitting consistent looking golf shots. Remember, the ball is just in the way of your motion. When you get to the point that the divots look good, line up 10 balls in a line and then just strike them one after another.. Don't try to hit them far, just try to hit them solid. Notice where they go..
Are they going somewhere they usually don't? If you are lining up to the right, your brain is just doing what it needs to do, because your motion is of such a nature to pull or hook shots. Thank your brain for doing it's job, Once you get your body doing the work and not your arms and hands, your swing plane alignments will improve, your divots will be straight, and now the ball has a chance to take it's directions from your new impact alignments, meaining good golf shots.

Garbage in garbage out… precision in precision out…

Thanks Lag, I’ll try this, it makes a lot of sense, and will be easy to do because you make it easy to visualise…

I have had times in the last couple of years where my divots were all the same, very straight and consistent, but I was able to practice every day, that isn’t possible right now unfortunately…

A.B,
when I fly down tomorrow, I'll bring my video camera, do some footage to show L.P ,May even have to pull out the grease gun and grease up my hinges and do some footage of myself and show people educated hands applied with G.O.L.F with a busted back.
I'm very keen to measure your kinetic chain.

L.P that awesome, I admire your passion and the desire to play.
Thanks for the information and A.B's questions, you filled a few grey areas I always questioned myself. And what A'B was speaking about isn't an uncommon occurance,and see this with students often. I was shot down in flames cause I stated according to several different L.M's , I had a swing speed of 85mph on average the od 90 max. At 13th beach there is a hole 285 metres and iflew it on the green, I was told I was bull dust this isn't possible, 10 guys seen me do it, I could never Answer how or why it happened, but now I have answer why thankyou

No dramas Bio, can’t wait!! I can’t wait to get onto the program and take every advantage of your expertise. Looking forward to k vest and placing video on here!

As far as the knockers mate, we’ll just smile from now and keep doing our thing! They may just read about it one day!!

Thanks for the great advice LP, look forward to hearing your views when we can post some vision!

AB

TGM? You are wasting your time guys. Homer is not alive, god bless him. Do not think mechanical or too technical. If you do, you will be very confused and will keep on shooting 85+ and this goes for the boys on here who claim to play of 2.9 or something? For the life of me, how can a person off 2.9 have 85 is beyond me? They must of hit some pure shots in that score? If you want to get better with your game no matter what your level is at, it takes time but good time spent at certain things. It just amazes me after reading a few posts that so many people here are on the shitter with their game. Why is this?.....Go out and hit the ball and think about the hole, your best options on a hole and if any idiot says that a persimmon head and butter heads will be good for your game is a good thing as that is what is doing it for them is having a lend of you… NO MATTER WHO THEY MAY BE OR CLAIM TO BE. If you use a wood, wood..you are a relic from the stone age. I guess I am having a go at Lag Pressure here….Bless the good old Tony Penna’s….

TGM? You are wasting your time guys. Homer is not alive, god bless him. Do not think mechanical or too technical. If you do, you will be very confused and will keep on shooting 85+ and this goes for the boys on here who claim to play of 2.9 or something? For the life of me, how can a person off 2.9 have 85 is beyond me? They must of hit some pure shots in that score? If you want to get better with your game no matter what your level is at, it takes time but good time spent at certain things. It just amazes me after reading a few posts that so many people here are on the shitter with their game. Why is this?.....Go out and hit the ball and think about the hole, your best options on a hole and if any idiot says that a persimmon head and butter heads will be good for your game is a good thing as that is what is doing it for them is having a lend of you… NO MATTER WHO THEY MAY BE OR CLAIM TO BE. If you use a wood, wood..you are a relic from the stone age. I guess I am having a go at Lag Pressure here….Bless the good old Tony Penna's….

Ahhhhh, yet additional proof why we need an “ignore” button around here!

@905R

wow, to think you took the time to come on here and spout off at people you don’t even know!

You wouldn’t know a guy by the name of pranginka would you?

yair, this is someone with an axe to grind…

905R:

I actually feel really sorry for you…

Being able to survive on such little brain power must be a daily challenge for you. I guess Charles Darwin’s theory of natural selection is BS after all.

To all the kids out there please take this as a warning and…

USE PROTECTION!

Mistakes like this are definitely possible!

905r

Thanks for the post, I am one who welcomes controversy and alternative opinions. I was actually throw off a board a couple weeks ago for spouting my opinions about how corporate America has bullied the USGA and R and A and now makes the rules for the game regarding legal equipment. I am American and enjoy exercising my first Amendment rights regarding freedom of speech. I felt my arguments about the corporate take over of golf that has taken place were very legitimate, well articulated, and thought out. I also question why three of the worlds majors are on U.S. soil, and personally I view the Australian Open to be the 4rth major of the world.
If you look at the the list of champions through the 50’s – 80’s it certainly looks viable for such consideration, great tradition also.
The U.S. PGA Championship, being a major makes no sense to me.
My argument would be that The Open, The U.S. Open are viable,
the Australian Open, and since The Masters is regarded as such a hallowed venue, great tradition, and at one time, possibly greatest test of golf, makes sense, and I think most world tour players love the idea of playing in the Masters. I missed an invite by one shot in 1983 and still haunts me to this day!

Getting back to 905r, for most, golf is a mystery, and as TGM says,
“complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.

905r brings up a great point too…
The difference between playing and practicing…
I would agree that trying to think about swing moves while attempting to execute golf shots is at best, a questionable approach.

Personally, I am extremely disciplined in regard to practice, flight testing, and playing.

For me, all practice regarding swing adjustments, or changes is done using drills and exercises. Once I believe the body is doing what is should, I flight test.

Flight testing I line up ten balls and rapid fire them, therefore not allowing my computer any additional time to be jamming up the hard drive. If the balls are struck solidly, with favorable flight patterns, I will then proceed to playing.

Playing is anytime I am attempting to shape, customize or design a shot, whether this be on a range or on the course. Makes no difference.

Playing a shot requires that I assess the situation, I must artfully make a choice of what kind of shot I am going to hit, what club I am going to use, how I will shape the shot. Once these decisions are made, I must let my mind construct the motion that the body must make, I have to feel this in every cell of my body before I execute..
a quick little practice swing or two, and once I cull the feeling I waste no time and just do it…

Now are far a equipment, I use the gear that is appropriate for the golf course I will be playing. If I am playing an old style course that has 10 four pars, then I would like 3 of them to test my long irons, four of them for the mid irons, and 3 for the short irons. If the course is 6800 yards then persimmon will do fine. For me to go out with modern gear that I can bomb out there 300 plus, it does nothing for me. I mean can a player of my caliber really get off on shooting 65 on some classic old track? Does this mean I am now better than Ben Hogan was? I mean who am I kidding. Now if I go out and shoot a pair of 68’s on such a classic old track, with gear that the course was designed for, then believe me, I will feel much better about it.. and will certainly sleep good that night…

Also, I like the feel of persimmon, and blade irons just as a guitarist might like the feel of their favorite Les Paul or Martin. No difference.

I do realize that my intention to play is for much different reasons than most people. At this point I have no desire to compete against other people. I don’t have a burning desire to “beat you”. I love hitting shots in the wind, making great swings, hitting pro shots, and I don’t mind posting a fine score that I am content with when the cumulation of my efforts for the days round are tallied on the scorecard at the end of the round. I am never ashamed of my score if it is higher than I think it should be.. that is really quite a subjective view that I would be imposing on it. It is the experience that I crave, the beauty of fine tuning my craft and flowing my game across the lay of the land and the forces of nature. Regardless of what my opinions are about the USGA or how I believe the game has been sold out to profit in the mainstream, when I go out tomorrow afternoon in a stiff wind and play a course that was crafted over 100 years ago, all that goes away in blink.

Now, what was your question again?

LP:

Very nice response! ;-)

905r

Thanks for the post, I am one who welcomes controversy and alternative opinions. I was actually throw off a board a couple weeks ago for spouting my opinions about how corporate America has bullied the USGA and R and A and now makes the rules for the game regarding legal equipment. I am American and enjoy exercising my first Amendment rights regarding freedom of speech. I felt my arguments about the corporate take over of golf that has taken place were very legitimate, well articulated, and thought out. I also question why three of the worlds majors are on U.S. soil, and personally I view the Australian Open to be the 4rth major of the world.
If you look at the the list of champions through the 50's ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú 80's it certainly looks viable for such consideration, great tradition also.
The U.S. PGA Championship, being a major makes no sense to me.
My argument would be that The Open, The U.S. Open are viable,
the Australian Open, and since The Masters is regarded as such a hallowed venue, great tradition, and at one time, possibly greatest test of golf, makes sense, and I think most world tour players love the idea of playing in the Masters. I missed an invite by one shot in 1983 and still haunts me to this day!

Getting back to 905r, for most, golf is a mystery, and as TGM says,
ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìcomplexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.

905r brings up a great point too…
The difference between playing and practicing…
I would agree that trying to think about swing moves while attempting to execute golf shots is at best, a questionable approach.

Personally, I am extremely disciplined in regard to practice, flight testing, and playing.

For me, all practice regarding swing adjustments, or changes is done using drills and exercises. Once I believe the body is doing what is should, I flight test.

Flight testing I line up ten balls and rapid fire them, therefore not allowing my computer any additional time to be jamming up the hard drive. If the balls are struck solidly, with favorable flight patterns, I will then proceed to playing.

Playing is anytime I am attempting to shape, customize or design a shot, whether this be on a range or on the course. Makes no difference.

Playing a shot requires that I assess the situation, I must artfully make a choice of what kind of shot I am going to hit, what club I am going to use, how I will shape the shot. Once these decisions are made, I must let my mind construct the motion that the body must make, I have to feel this in every cell of my body before I execute..
a quick little practice swing or two, and once I cull the feeling I waste no time and just do it…

Now are far a equipment, I use the gear that is appropriate for the golf course I will be playing. If I am playing an old style course that has 10 four pars, then I would like 3 of them to test my long irons, four of them for the mid irons, and 3 for the short irons. If the course is 6800 yards then persimmon will do fine. For me to go out with modern gear that I can bomb out there 300 plus, it does nothing for me. I mean can a player of my caliber really get off on shooting 65 on some classic old track? Does this mean I am now better than Ben Hogan was? I mean who am I kidding. Now if I go out and shoot a pair of 68's on such a classic old track, with gear that the course was designed for, then believe me, I will feel much better about it.. and will certainly sleep good that night…

Also, I like the feel of persimmon, and blade irons just as a guitarist might like the feel of their favorite Les Paul or Martin. No difference.

I do realize that my intention to play is for much different reasons than most people. At this point I have no desire to compete against other people. I don't have a burning desire to ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìbeat you”. I love hitting shots in the wind, making great swings, hitting pro shots, and I don't mind posting a fine score that I am content with when the cumulation of my efforts for the days round are tallied on the scorecard at the end of the round. I am never ashamed of my score if it is higher than I think it should be.. that is really quite a subjective view that I would be imposing on it. It is the experience that I crave, the beauty of fine tuning my craft and flowing my game across the lay of the land and the forces of nature. Regardless of what my opinions are about the USGA or how I believe the game has been sold out to profit in the mainstream, when I go out tomorrow afternoon in a stiff wind and play a course that was crafted over 100 years ago, all that goes away in blink.

Now, what was your question again?

Lagpressure i read the wrx and the members are somewhat like a church but honestly i enjoyed reading your posts and ruffling their feathers and s..t i laugh all the time when people knock tgm stack &tilt on that forum their are so many parrots on that site and most those guys giving advice over there would not break 100 in a us open .
Anyway i must admit this is one of the most interesting discussions i have ever read regarding the 5th accumulator etc hogan stuff is always fascinating and would like to hear a lot more.
The angle of approach v arc of approach and the swing types that they match up and can a player combine the two?

Sort of like rebuilding a vintage car and driving it to a rally! Why do people do that? Because they enjoy the challenge and they can!

While I’m here – I have been silently following this thread and enjoying all of your (LP) input so please accept my apology for 905r’s burst of ignorance and arrogance – I don’t know this yobo but I’m all for the wearing of protection to avoid such mistakes!!

905: Anyone can drive a car. Better drivers learn to be much more aware of what is going on around them and how to control that car via that increased knowledge. They can plan and react better than an unskilled driver when needs be.

Those who pot shot at ANY golf lessons are those who do not see the need for more skills, or are the tiny minority who just can do it without much schooling at all.

Using knowledge is the key. Thinking about too many things when standing over a ball is not what TGM is all about at all. It is about fundamentals that all of us could or do use to hit the ball better…and from that possibly score with a bit more consistency.

As LP put, “complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.

905: Anyone can drive a car. Better drivers learn to be much more aware of what is going on around them and how to control that car via that increased knowledge. They can plan and react better than an unskilled driver when needs be.

Those who pot shot at ANY golf lessons are those who do not see the need for more skills, or are the tiny minority who just can do it without much schooling at all.

Using knowledge is the key. Thinking about too many things when standing over a ball is not what TGM is all about at all. It is about fundamentals that all of us could or do use to hit the ball better…and from that possibly score with a bit more consistency.

As LP put, ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìcomplexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.

I think you may have missed my meaning and I don’t believe anyone can drive a car because there is too much death on the roads by those that can’t…. believe me I see too much of it!!!

How sadly true that is and close to home in the last fortnight. 2 kids from the Cricket/Footie club no longer with us. They were not as lucky as Bio.

Very Sad Guru, my condolences!

Hey Ditty, you in the job? (emergency serivices?) Am a Melbourne Firey so can understand what you are saying, gets a bit much at times eh?

AB – I knew we had something in common when I saw your icon – my dad signed me up with Essendon (as a member) the day I was born – used to live at 29 Kalimna street Essendon – still get down there for a game occassionally – my cuz still lives in Essendon with her family and my bro lives at Geelong – annnnd as for being a Firie, yes I am – joined Melbourne in 69 and did training at number 10 station Richmond before they moved to the skipping girl site – posted to the old Eastern Hill and then North Melbourne, was a Z man for a while and did a few stints on the crash machine on north side then joined Queensland in 81. Nice to meet you!

Just getting off topic a bit,
I remember first landing in Sydney in 1987, I flew down from the states a week early all alone, no room mate or traveling partner. I rented a car downtown in Kings Cross, and I get in and I’m in the passengers seat, looking to my right and seeing the steering wheel in the wrong seat! It was the first time I ever drove on the left (wrong) lol… side of the road. The clerk hands me the keys and I look at him like, are you kidding me? I’m just supposed to get this? It was really crazy and quite dangerous the first week or two. I can’t tell you how many times I wound up driving into oncoming traffic after a pint or two at the local rugby union league with a couple friends. Making those right hand turns from the left lane, looking at the oncoming traffic moving past me on my right, and then turning into the far left lane was just a total mind bender.. I might as well have teed it up at The Lakes in the APGA with a left handed set of blades.. It really felt that strange..

This kinda makes me want to get out my diary of my first trip down there in 87.. I kept a daily… and haven’t read it in years.. A lot of my most interesting times in OZ were not on the golf course..!

PS, I realized one of my posts about the Australian Open I was off by two years lol… 87 not 89… has it really been that long?

Does anyone remember when they canceled the final round at Royal Melbourne because of the wind? I think it was the Australian Open, can’t remember which year, but I remember Norman just picking up his ball and walking off the course.. with the lead mind you… was that 87? anyway, I was there that day, I do know it was the final round Sunday, and I was keeping Mike Ferguson’s card, and we posted our scores as we had finished early. He shot 90 something, and I don’t think I have ever seen a player so pissed off about course conditions.. It was totally insane, balls were literally being blown off the greens.. I remember finding it almost dreamy or surreal.. Eventually we had a players meeting in the clubhouse with the officials and we voted to cancel the round.

I can’t remember the year, but I can remember that day! and I will never forget the toughest round of golf I have every played in my life. I think I shot 84 and was low man in my group..!

Somethings money can’t buy…

I remember that day, it was amazing, I was watching on TV, we laughed and laughed and admitted it was one game of golf that didn’t interest me in the least….

It’s come close to being that bad since a few times, but the club has managed to avoid the problem by soaking the greens over night.

Cliff,

Do you remember what year that was?

Homer is not alive? YES…but, IMHO, Physic and Geometry of circle will be with us…and as well as the complete teaching and learning TGM system. It is all up to YOU. The principle of playing golf can’t be charged unless you play the game on the moon….

Lagpressure,
The sunday of 87’ was cancelled due to wind and they came back monday – Norman won by 10.
Have enjoyed this thread and the insights into, and descriptions of, G.O.L.F. so far Lagpressure. Your writing contains, and encourages, passion and feeling for the game and has been an enjoyable and educational read. Looking forward to reading more about hitting in particular – A TGM video by Tom Tomasello displayed a more one dimensional result with hitting – a slight delofting of the clubface (lower ball flight) and a faded ball flight – but there are more options with educated hands?

Thanks for your input, Chill.

lag
what is difference between the 2nd and third power accumulator? when i read tgm it sound like homer is talking about the same thing?

2nd is the wrist cock action
3rd is the rolling action #3 Accumulator

Thanks Guru

CHILLBILL,

Educated hands will allow you to do all kinds of fun things, when I was on tour and playing well, all I really had to do was just think it, and it would happen, 5 yard draw, 3 yard fade, whatever… the relationship between the computer and the hands is wonderful especially when they decide to be on the same team! lol

Beginners usually try to draw the ball with club head throwaway..
throwing the club at the ball, breaking down the left wrist and just really putting up a prayer for a miracle.

When I was a swinger I used to rotate my plane line, or move the ball back in my stance, then establish a new arc of approach which might appear to be more inside out, I could close the face of the club and then just swing and release as I normally would, or close and actually re grip the club in this new postion if I really had to hook one.

During my hitting years, a draw was a manipulation of the shaft after impact, kind of like ….hmmm this is hard to explain…

Say you are standing behind me, and after impact you would see my hands and arms quickly disappear left behind my body.. now to draw the ball I would cut my hands left, but feel as if the clubhead is staying down the line much longer, so in a sense it is a feeling of pulling the shaft out of plane… as if at the 4rth parallel, where the shaft would be typically parallel to the plane line, in this case I would feel that my hands would be hip high over my left ankle, but the clubhead would be more fanned out to the right, almost pointing right of the target, and not rolled at all. I came across this one day in practice, it was not consistent with anything I had ever been taught, but to do this, it would just put tremendous pressure in my hands, which of course is lag pressure, and club head feel.. so if I needed to draw it 5 yards I learned how much that felt like, and 10 yard would be much more pressure and difficult.. the great thing about this is that it starts becoming difficult to move the ball..

Wouldn’t golf be great if you felt you had to make huge efforts to work the ball 5 yards either way? This is what it feels like to be a great ball striker.. for the master striker, it’s not luck, it’s easy.

I love hitting because when done properly it gives me such better ball control, I don’t have to feel relaxed and rubbery, I can feel tight, tense, and hit great shots.. and this is what elevated my game to being able to win tournaments under pressure. It was a great feeling to not have to rely on zen breathing techniques to keep calm and relaxed, but just have a golf swing that easily repeats on it’s own merits regardless of my heart rate, thoughts of fear or whatever.

Things got to a point where it became difficult to hit bad shots..
I was fortunate to experience this for some time, and I believe that golfs greatest players really live in this reality all the time…
They win consistently because it just becomes really hard to hit bad shots.

It’s really worth it to master your hitting methods.. and to understand what you are doing..

Be the artist and the mechanic…

Lag Pressure,

I like the word “think” in relation to being on a golf course. To think on a golf course is danger and i do not mean shot to shot. Any decent player has the thoughts in their mind of how to play the course before they do it. As for your hacker, they do not give 2 hoots but want to improve.
Yes, aim at a bunker and draw/fade the ball down the fairway. The key is managing the course? How many golfers can aim at a bunker and fade/draw off it? How many golfers can hit a certain shot to a green below the hole or to a place on the green that is “in play”. NOT MANY.

Not Lag Pressure but,

What would it take for them to learn. NOT MUCH.

But it has to be mechanically sound. The smallest mistake in the foundation tumbles the entire structure, and takes all the cleverness out of it.

Swedeas

One of the beautiful things about golf is that as you become a better player, the face of the game changes from one of simply trying to hit the ball around the course and keep it in play… to a game much more intellectually stimulating…like a chess match of position, forward looking strategy, and as dart says, cleverness.

I do believe that even the average golfer could do a great deal to help their scores if they could realistically assess their own abilities, set the ego aside, and hit shots that will give them the best chance of keeping the ball in play for their skill level.

What club should I pull from the tee that will give me an 80% chance of hitting the fairway? For me it is often not a driver, sometimes a 3 wood, even a 3 iron. I would much rather be in the fairway from 160 than in the rough or worse from 140.

The 14th hole at my club has a sucker fairway, I can hit 3 iron and I will never miss the fairway, even with a poor swing of the club. If I hit driver, the fairway bottlenecks at 240 yards to something about 15 yards wide, add an elevated tee and wind everywhere and I would have to make a really pure swing just to have a chance of keeping it in play down there with all kinds of trouble, hazards lurking.
I see people pull driver all the time and just swing away, and I don’t think I have ever seen an average player who has a bit of distance ever hit that fairway.

I think that just really shows where most peoples heads are at.

It might be interesting for an average golfer to go out and just make it a point to hit every fairway, even if that meant hitting 7 iron off the tee. Do the same thing on the next shot, and just take the big numbers out of play. As the swing improves, gradually move the ball down the fairway with more club over the weeks, or months. I bet we would see a quick reduction in the handicap, but tough on the ego for sure..

Very true indeed LagP. On the fairway,always we hope and even if it is a 2/3 iron off the tee that leaves an 8/7 iron to a short hole, so be it.

As another example, I could be 120m from the hole which is a wedge but I will take a 9 or 8 iron more times than not due to wind, shape the ball into the green etc. I could be 150m out and have a 6/7 iron but will take a 4/5 iron at times due to wind mostly.

I personally believe that taking one club extra on approach shots from 100m-200m and shaking hands with your friendly knockdown shot is a bonus and many players need to try and grasp this shot. It ain’t tough as I am sure you will know as it is actually easier (with some practice) and will bring more consistent results. I suppose one may ask, “how do you hit a knockdown 3 iron?”. I know you will be able to respond to this. Ball slightly back, 75/80% swing and solid hands through impact. For me, I take a slightly open stance even if I need to draw or fade it. I may be off plane with my swing for these shots at times but it is what your hands do through impact the makes a difference.

Lee Trevino comes to mind.

A belated welcome to the forum Swedeas.

Swedeas

You are talking like a good player, shaping shots on the course, working your shots in and with and against the wind.. it’s a level of golf few people get to, but it is here where the real magic of the game lies.
To start to feel the wholeness of the shot, from the motion of your body, firing the ball toward the target, and in a sense feeling it all the way to fairway or green. It is when we get into this zone that we can start to spiritualize the game… with TGM, we learn our feel from mechanics, and then we take that feel and try to connect it to nature, the lay of the land, wind, temperature, really focusing our energy on the the total experience.

If I move the ball back in my stance, I have two options.. first I can steepen the angle of attack, and punch the shot straight, or I can take that same position, and rotate my plane line out to the right and take a more shallow divot… and draw the ball back to my original target line.

Lately I have been keeping my stance pretty square, even on shorter shots, I do like to feel a fair amount of lower body rotation on the back swing, even on partial shots, and opening my stance too much really restricts my right hip rotation. Short pitch and chip shots seem to work well with a significant open stance, but even on the shortest chips, I like to get some leg action going to help with the rhythm. Just that little delay at the change of direction gives the computer a spit second more to make any last second subconscious
adjustments. This seems to really help the feel for distance.

It is true that with educated hands, you can draw or fade from both open or closed stances…

It’s for this reason I don’t spend too much time trying to line up my shots… if I feel slightly left or right of where I want to be, I just draw or fade my shot a bit more, or less, from that stance, this really helps me free my mind and stopped all the pre shot paralysis that used to inflict my game when I was a younger player.

I am not using exact yardages anymore either, but trying to move into a more intuitive zone on the course. 150 or 200 markers give me a good idea as to where I am, then from there it’s just intuition.

It’s really amazing how accurate you can be with your distances if you just really focus on your shot design, and how it is going to feel in the body before you execute the shot. Once you quell the feeling, you just step up to the ball, and release that feeling into the ball.

I loved watching Lee Trevino, he made golf look so easy..
great rhythm and he always looked so committed to the shot.
No look of hesitation, and he was a very quick player.

LP a comment in there about moving the ball back in the stance to hit a draw will have a few heads being scratched. Would you like to enlighten some on how hitting has the opposite ball position requirements vs a swinger.

Ok,

I check my alignment by putting a club on the ground in front of the ball pointing right to the target. next I put a club from the ball at a 90 degree angle that is now coming right toward me. Now if I plan on my ball position being just prior to my low point, I would hang a club from by left armpit (I am right handed) and let that club drop to the ground.
That club should drop right on the club I have laying on the ground that is coming toward me from the ball. This would usually be just inside my left heel a couple of inches. (assuming a shoulder width stance)

Now if I move the ball back in my stance and keep my feet in the same position, and I drop the club from my armpit, mark that spot on the ground say with a coin, then from that coin, I place a club on the ground from the coin to the new ball position, and I take another club and put that at a 90 degree perpendicular to the club out where the ball is, I have in a sense rotated my swing plane line to the right of my original target or plane line. What I have now is a new swing plane line that is aimed to the right of my original target or plane line.

Only difference now is that my stance is open to my new plane line.

Of course I could do the opposite too, I could move the ball forward, and then drop a coin straight down from my armpit to the ground, mark that spot, put a club on the ground pointing toward the forward ball position, and if I place another club at right angles to the club that is moving out from the coin on the ground below my armpit, I have rotated my swing plane line to the left of my orginal plane or target line. If I swing on this new plane line, I would just have a closed stance.

If you are taking divots of the same depth, from all three positions,
you are just rotating your plane line around from the same stance position. The forward ball and the back ball might at first appear to be closer to your body, but they are in fact the same distance. They will appear to be in an arc if you were to look at them all at once.

This is an excellent exercise to get an understanding of different ball positioning, and how you can hit draw and fade shots from a stance that stays constant in it’s relationship an original ball target straight plane line… with basically the same shot trajectory. Just work your shots from the new plane line, back to original target line.

This is a great drill to help educate the hands.

Wow… Very Clever! Never thought about it that way!

Smarter than the average bear and why he got good at holing the ball more often than not.

Dear Lagpressure,

Ball in relation to the left shoulder….without changing the stance…

If i just locate the ball back, my clubface will be too open, the ball goes right of target;

If i just locate the ball forward, my clubface will be too close, the ball goes left of target;

From what you said, do you cocern with grip rotation?

KOC,

You are correct, that if you move the ball back and rotate your plane line to the right your clubface would be open in relation to the original plane line… and forward visa versa..

Now when you say “if it is back the ball goes right of target” I would re phrase that to be the ball STARTS right of target… and if you move the ball forward, the ball STARTS left of target..

So pick your hinge, and there are still several ways to draw and fade shots, so with the ball forward, start the ball left and fade it back to the target, and if the ball is back draw it back to target..

This is great education for the hands..

The real beauty of all this, is that it can really help with the paralysis so many feel when they are lining up their shots.. that they have to be spot on to have a chance of hitting a quality shot..

Knowing you can work the ball around from different ball positions is very FREEING! Getting a great sense of your swings low point, and moving your plane line around as I described will give you more confidence standing over the ball, so you don’t have to fidget or get that feeling that something is wrong..

I’ll take educated hands over perfect square to square alignment any time..

The problem I have with the classic “move the ball forward to draw,
and move it back to fade”... that is the geometry of “all things swinging” is that this requires a more perfect alignment.

I like the idea that if you blindfolded me and spun me around, and then aimed me within twenty yards left or right of the pin, then took off the blindfolds and said find the pin, I would be able to work the ball back towards the hole by acknowledging my new alignment and letting my educated hands do the rest..

I am not in anyway saying that the protocol of the swingers classic ball positioning is flawed in anyway..

but like I said in an earlier post, swinging in general makes several big assumptions…

1. That the human body will create a steady even acceleration for all the laws of physics and geometry to do what they need to do..

2. That the hinges are properly lubed at all times when playing golf shots.. meaning free flexible wrists, heavy noodle like arms, and the “gutty” inner motion of the body is really driving the swing..(loading and delivering the power package)

I will say that the hitter must also feel that “gutty” body rotation (for fuller shots).. but accepting that we all have “off days” I like being off as a hitter much more than being “off” as a swinger.

I played today, and really felt “off’, but still managed 7 birdie putts inside 20 feet. I only hit one shot that I would say was “really” bad.. That would not have been the case back when I was for the most part a swinger..

Lag
Great advice, the clock description for my swing works wonderfully well. It hasn’t taught me anything I don’t already know, it just brings it to a place that makes sense.

What I mean is it gives me a routine I can use that gets my overactive arms/hands back on line, you pointed out to me something I had been trying to figure out for a looooong time. That my arms take over when I haven’t been practicing for a while, then slowly I work my swing back to body followed by arms. Now I have a routine that lets me work my body back straight away, it’s SO much better thank you again.

Give me a few weeks and I will do another video, maybe you can advise me by looking at my swing when it’s back to where it should be….

Cliff,

Being “gutty”.... really moving everything with the body is not the easy way! You can never do it too much, the more the better, and when you are practicing it, you should actually feel a burn in the lower back muscles above the hips… don’t be surprised if your lower back is sore in the morning. I like to stretch out in the morning to keep flexible. I find it best to sit on the floor Indian Style, then touch my right shoulder to my left knee, and then left to right. This stretch really helps to aid in getting maximum rotation from the torso.

Glad to hear you are making progress…!

Hi Lag,

I can see from many different forum users posts here that they may not be able to reach a level of shaping a shot on demand, etc. I am sure they would love to in the future and lets hope so. I am guessing that there are also many users here that are at the level or getting there with regards to the next phase in this game.
I side with you on this one in a way. 150-200m markers are great but intuition and feel for a shot or having that shot in your mind before you play it goes a long way. Being able to have a couple of different options up your sleeve from say 160m also plays a huge role. In a way, it sets apart the great from the good from the , “what do I do here” golfer.
I see it this way at times for golfers. Many have that dreaded push slice, cut slice, they aim down the left to try and keep it in play or they may be the opposite with their right to left shots which is the minority in a way. Once they can get their game going straighter of which takes a few things like maybe a lesson or 2, at times some major/minor changes to their swing, then they can work on building the confidence with their swing to try different shots like shaping the ball off the tee or to the green. It sure is fun to be able to do it, it pays off in time and makes one a better player.
It will be good chatting to you over time Lag.

I know what you mean with the stretching, Lag, I do Pilates twice a day, or at least early in the morning for around an hour, my fitness is great, I don’t expect any lower back aches, if I get them then I know i am in trouble… I also take Zinc once a day, it aids healing, without it i get real back trouble.

I do around 60 pushups a day, 60 situps, I am 49 and 6’ 4” tall…. I used to bench press 160kg, that would be a bit less these days but not much… It’s why I can hit a ball 300m with a poor swing. Watch out when i am practicing every day…I hit my wedge 150+ and my 8 iron 160+, I love smashing a golf ball HARD, I hit a ball but I HIT from the top of my swing Fun with a capital F…

I think most golfers of any level can learn the basics of draws and fades. Whether it is done by learning different releases, or simply rotating the grip, these things can be learned with 1/2 swings or 3/4 swings. This can help stop a golfer’s swing from getting too lopsided…
I think a lot of golfers who start with a slice, find that slice gets bigger and bigger over time, so to have some kind of knowledge on how to move the ball the other direction is very helpful. The great thing about The Golfing Machine is that it gives even a high handicapper the knowledge they need to understand basic alignments, angles, and so forth.

KOC,

You are correct, that if you move the ball back and rotate your plane line to the right your clubface would be open in relation to the original plane line… and forward visa versa..

Now when you say ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìif it is back the ball goes right of target” I would re phrase that to be the ball STARTS right of target… and if you move the ball forward, the ball STARTS left of target..

So pick your hinge, and there are still several ways to draw and fade shots, so with the ball forward, start the ball left and fade it back to the target, and if the ball is back draw it back to target..

This is great education for the hands..

The real beauty of all this, is that it can really help with the paralysis so many feel when they are lining up their shots.. that they have to be spot on to have a chance of hitting a quality shot..

Knowing you can work the ball around from different ball positions is very FREEING! Getting a great sense of your swings low point, and moving your plane line around as I described will give you more confidence standing over the ball, so you don't have to fidget or get that feeling that something is wrong..

I'll take educated hands over perfect square to square alignment any time..

The problem I have with the classic ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìmove the ball forward to draw,
and move it back to fade”… that is the geometry of ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìall things swinging” is that this requires a more perfect alignment.

I like the idea that if you blindfolded me and spun me around, and then aimed me within twenty yards left or right of the pin, then took off the blindfolds and said find the pin, I would be able to work the ball back towards the hole by acknowledging my new alignment and letting my educated hands do the rest..

I am not in anyway saying that the protocol of the swingers classic ball positioning is flawed in anyway..

but like I said in an earlier post, swinging in general makes several big assumptions…

1. That the human body will create a steady even acceleration for all the laws of physics and geometry to do what they need to do..

2. That the hinges are properly lubed at all times when playing golf shots.. meaning free flexible wrists, heavy noodle like arms, and the ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìgutty” inner motion of the body is really driving the swing..(loading and delivering the power package)

I will say that the hitter must also feel that ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìgutty” body rotation (for fuller shots).. but accepting that we all have ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìoff days” I like being off as a hitter much more than being ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìoff” as a swinger.

I played today, and really felt ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìoff', but still managed 7 birdie putts inside 20 feet. I only hit one shot that I would say was ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreally” bad.. That would not have been the case back when I was for the most part a swinger..

Thanks alot for the detail reply.

Homer on this: ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìHitter should rotate their Grip but not the plane line at address; swinger should rotate their plane line but not the grip.” make me thinking for some days!

I would say that what Homer says is still correct..
I could move the ball back, and in doing so, rotate my plane line to the right, set the clubface at the original target line and regrip the club..
then just hit along the new plane line and the ball would draw or hook back to the original plane line using an angled hinge.

You can do a lot with educated hands… I think you could use that same starting position, and use a dual horizontal hinge swinging the club along the new plane line and I suppose you could even move the ball forward and away, giving the face more time to close if you are working in a pure swinging mode.

Of all the different combinations of plane lines, grip rotations, angles and arcs of approach, I would only give warning to one thing concerning the grip..

In all the years I was on tour, I never saw a good player hit dynamic golf shots with any real consistency with a double weak grip..
Every other combination, but not left hand weak, and right hand weak. I have seen a lot of double strong grips win tour events,
weak left- strong right, strong left- weak right.. but not weak – weak..
never, so you might keep that in mind when experimenting around with all this…

All this stuff is great education for the hands, and the more options your hands get comfortable with, the better… hands can’t be too educated…!

Hands conduct the orchestra:)

When i started reading this thread i thought gee i haven’t missed anything in 2 months yet now i have finished it i can say the opposite is true.

Practical intelligent info that can be applied to gain from.

Finish swivel…

I don't remember the specific component name of my finish swivel.
Haven't pick up my book in years.. but I do know what I do and why.

I do everything to save as much of my hip rotation until after impact, so I have a lot of #4 to get the club over to the 4rth parallel. Keeping my upper arms packed hard against my body, I have spent #1, #2, and #3..so 4 really has to fire hard. To do this I use the ground, by wrenching my feet together, (squeezing them together hard) firing the left knee into a straight position, and keeping the left wrist partially cocked still. I turn my torso as flat as I can so that the left shoulder is moving away from the ball as far as possible. The hands are firm and stiff. Once I am at the 4rth parallel.. I then fight the direction of the true impact plane (elbow plane) and then use the rotator cuff muscles in the shoulders to raise the upper arms off the body again pulling the club and shaft off of it's very flat plane and use the #3 pressure point, but this time it is slightly a bit more underneath and I just pull the hole thing up as hard as I can to do everything to keep the club and shaft moving and I like to feel that I am reaching maximum hand speed just past the 4rth parallel. Now this is a feel thing in my attempt or futile attempt to maintain the acceleration of my hands beyond the ball. I actually leaned this technique in a martial arts class. In other words, if you are going to chop through a pile of bricks, you must concentrate on moving your hand past and beyond the point of impact. So whether or not I can hold the flex to the ball or not, it is truly my intent to do so with every swing of the club, from driver to putter.

Now at arriving at my finish, I like to get my torso rotated to it's maximum angle, I would guess about 30 degree beyond perpendicular. My spine becomes a bit more upright, arms are slightly bent but really I try to finish with them as straight as possible.
The clubface should be at right angles to my shoulders, and I try not to cock my wrists, and with a short iron, my clubshaft might be about 45 degrees down from skyward. Of course with a driver the momentum of the club, will bring it down to below parallel, probably through the ears looking from behind, but I an resisting all of this.

The reason I do so much resistance is to put as much pressure on my pressure points right to the end… PRESSURE IS FEEL!

I do realize that by pulling the clubhead out of orbit, as compared to a swingers dump and full roll hinge release, I lose clubhead speed,
but the amount of feel this puts in my hands gives me the ball control I need to position the golf ball around a course, so I am playing a game of strategy, rather than a game of ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìrip and find”

By becoming a better athlete, and using things like an impact bag, and a fan club, I got a lot of my power back, but this time I had a swing that didn't need much oil, and hits consistent golf shots under pressure when you need it most.. and when you are going up against the best in the game, you better be able to repeat it… if you want to have any chance…

To be honest, I wouldn't be afraid to play anyone on an old style course that requires precise shot making… at least for one round..
anything can happen. Of course assuming we are both using persimmon and blades.. but that is another topic..!

Lagpressure,
can you describe this more for me particularly the no4 is this the pressure point against your upper body and are you talking about maintaining it through impact and beyond?

My sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3 together) 4.
It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released on the way down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left? If your intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then the feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after impact must be your goal.

Again, we can argue whether or not this is actually possible, and I do believe it to be… I have some video packed away somewhere I hope to upload soon to demonstrate..

Now getting back to impact, when I am really striking the ball well, my left hip moves significantly after impact, being the core of the engine that moves the upper torso, and all this force is applied to the #4 pressure point at the left armpit. Once the club is all the way over to the 4rth parallel…. now what is left? All the accumulators are spent right? But I would argue that my intent is still to be moving the club
faster than it was moments before.. I am trying to accelerate and am not ready to give up.. Accelerate forever!

So after the body has slung the club and shaft over to the forth paralled on a very flat plane, (elbow plane) it is now time to lift that club back up to shoulder plane with a most violent effort..
all you aussies have a great role model for this with Peter Senior, and Greg Norman in their primes… a massive uplifting, making every effort to squeeze every last possible ounce of kinetic energy in an attempt to keep the club accelerating long past impact..

And this is my argument for this 5th accumulator..

Homer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre impact clubhead speed, but post as well… and this is where I believe that what happens after impact is just as important as what has happened before..

There must be a lot of commitment and intent to keep things moving along after the ball has left the clubface, because the greater the speed of the clubhead after impact the more we compress the ball and that compression is what we feel coming up the shaft into our hands and the 4rth pressure point as well…

This would also be consistent with martial art training, and hitting through, not stopping at…

Remember, lag pressure and feel are the same thing..
The longer you sustain the line of compression, the more lag pressure you create, and the more feel you have.

Educated hands love lots of lag pressure, the ball loves it and so do your scores..

Now go buy some blades so you can start really feeling all this stuff…!!!! lol

AMEN!!

Lag Pressure you are truly a breath of fresh air!

I am now a big believer in accelerate, accelerate, accelerate! Force is the product of mass times acceleration. As we can’t change the mass of our club (not mid swing anyway) the only thing we have at our disposal to generate more force is acceleration.

Prior to listening to you and other members of the ISG “brains trust” I believed clubhead speed at impact was the ultimate goal. However now I realise that a club can actually be moving with high velocity but may actually be losing its acceleration thus leading to less force being generated through impact.

I now realise that producing acceleration through the impact zone will result in a harder impact, better compression and greater distance – my personal goal in golf.

It’s not how fast the club travels from the top of the downswing that counts, the ball only reacts to what is occuring at impact and ball/clubface seperation. I liken the golf swing to a river flowing towards a waterfall (the edge of the waterfall representing impact). The closer the water flowing in the river gets to the waterfall’s edge the faster it begins to travel. Once on the edge of the waterfall, the flow doesn’t cease or slow, it significantly increases! Our golf swings should be no different!

Thank you and the rest of the ISG “gurus” for opening my eyes to what is and what is possible.

I do have a couple of technical questions I would like your views on.

1. The club delivery path on the downswing is directed towards the inner-aft of the ball as HK states in TGM. Optimal motion is ‘down n out’ (to the right for a RH golfer). Do you have a specific angle you work on for pure contact? 10, 20, 30* etc in-out? Or using the clock face reference, a particular time you swing out towards?

2. As someone who over rotates their hips left at impact often finishing on the rear foot – “spinning out” do you have any drills you work on for this problem?

3. I was playing around last night with my swing and found that if I transfer my weight to the left side with my hips initially moving out to the right (my feeling for correcting my mechanics), I found that if I maintained my knee flex into impact I could prevent my “spin out”. Should the front knee be flexed or be straight at the point of impact for maximum power?

I found this photo of Ben Hogan at impact which shows his left knee maintaining flex:

In your opinion is this the impact position golfers should be striving for?

My sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3 together) 4.
It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released on the way down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left? If your intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then the feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after impact must be your goal.

Again, we can argue whether or not this is actually possible, and I do believe it to be… I have some video packed away somewhere I hope to upload soon to demonstrate..

Now getting back to impact, when I am really striking the ball well, my left hip moves significantly after impact, being the core of the engine that moves the upper torso, and all this force is applied to the #4 pressure point at the left armpit. Once the club is all the way over to the 4rth parallel…. now what is left? All the accumulators are spent right? But I would argue that my intent is still to be moving the club
faster than it was moments before.. I am trying to accelerate and am not ready to give up.. Accelerate forever!

So after the body has slung the club and shaft over to the forth paralled on a very flat plane, (elbow plane) it is now time to lift that club back up to shoulder plane with a most violent effort..
all you aussies have a great role model for this with Peter Senior, and Greg Norman in their primes… a massive uplifting, making every effort to squeeze every last possible ounce of kinetic energy in an attempt to keep the club accelerating long past impact..

And this is my argument for this 5th accumulator..

Homer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre impact clubhead speed, but post as well… and this is where I believe that what happens after impact is just as important as what has happened before..

There must be a lot of commitment and intent to keep things moving along after the ball has left the clubface, because the greater the speed of the clubhead after impact the more we compress the ball and that compression is what we feel coming up the shaft into our hands and the 4rth pressure point as well…

This would also be consistent with martial art training, and hitting through, not stopping at…

Remember, lag pressure and feel are the same thing..
The longer you sustain the line of compression, the more lag pressure you create, and the more feel you have.

Educated hands love lots of lag pressure, the ball loves it and so do your scores..

Now go buy some blades so you can start really feeling all this stuff…!!!! lol

thanks for the reply lag… one other thing when you say after impact the left shoulder should move as far away from the ball as possible would you be “feeling” that move as a horizontal/parallel motion to the ground or angular or vertical??

AB: I can see your mind working overtime this last few weeks. I will be brief here with some pointers that LP and Co will no doubt paint more of the picture with:)

1) Homer says “We need to remember to keep thrusting to both arms straight. Do whatever we can to keep thrusting, whether it be via the swingers passive thrust of the straightening right arm or the hitter active pushing thrust.”

2) Hitter or swinger the way we swing will look a little different because the pivot is a little different.

3) We are all built different so we might look a little different too in how we pivot in terms of the pivot “bits”, feet, knees, hips torso etc.

I know you and I would look mega different put side by side:)

Guru:

Thanks heaps, yes I am working overtime. I see what is actually possible if I develop my mechanics and kinetic chain to optimal levels. I am hungrier than ever and am willing to work overtime to achieve what is truly possible. I am my own toughest critic and want to possess all of my ball striking ability – If I am not doing it perfectly, I am not fulfilling what I can potentially achieve. Golf machine and K-Vest have been a true eye opener into what is actually possible. I am not even close to operating at 100% capacity.

Obviously my goals are a little different to the traditional golfer, the power is present but without making an optimal compression and strike on the ball at impact I realise this power will never be maximised!

Can’t wait to put our swings side by side at some point in time. ;-)

Really appreciate all your continued assistance in my development.

We can put ideas in peoples minds. Up to you guys to think, incubate and hatch them in context with your own swings to hit the ball better.

slinger

lag… one other thing when you say after impact the left shoulder should move as far away from the ball as possible would you be ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìfeeling” that move as a horizontal/parallel motion to the ground or angular or vertical??

The flatter the rotation of the torso, the faster the left shoulder is moving away from the ball in terms is actual distance. If the shoulders are moving steep through impact, you are not maximizing the potential of #4 accumulator. This is why it is not uncommon to see a short in height golfer bomb the ball a long way (Ian Woosnam).... especially if they have wide shoulders genetically. Broad shoulders would be the genetics of choice.. tall people for basketball, small people for horse jockeys!

1. The club delivery path on the downswing is directed towards the inner-aft of the ball as HK states in TGM. Optimal motion is ˆ¢’ǨÀúdown n out' (to the right for a RH golfer). Do you have a specific angle you work on for pure contact? 10, 20, 30* etc in-out? Or using the clock face reference, a particular time you swing out towards?

2. As someone who over rotates their hips left at impact often finishing on the rear foot ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìspinning out” do you have any drills you work on for this problem?

3. I was playing around last night with my swing and found that if I transfer my weight to the left side with my hips initially moving out to the right (my feeling for correcting my mechanics), I found that if I maintained my knee flex into impact I could prevent my ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìspin out”. Should the front knee be flexed or be straight at the point of impact for maximum power?

1. You have to remember that the inside out motion is a visual illusion..as we aim our hands at the inside quadrant the clubhead comes around and hits the back of the ball. If you were to view this from behind it would not look this way. Because our eyes are above the plane looking down on it, things appear to move in an arc, but again, looking from behind we would see more straight lines.. also remember that the exact angle that you might visuallly see, would vary from person to person depending on your height, how far you stand from the ball, and what club you are using, upright, flat..and so forth..

I don’t think there is a magic # that would apply to all people and situations. A bit of practice, and the computer will make the fine tuning adjustments for you.

2+3. You would not want the left knee straightening before impact.
For maximum hip slant you would want the left knee straight by the 4rth parallel… I think Hogan gets it right.. that would be a great visual to input into the computer! You would not want the left knee straight at impact, but straight immediately after..

Lagpressure
Your contribution is a mine of informations and I want to add my thanks and congratulations to the others. I noticed that you quoted Moe Norman and personally met him. I am filled with admiration for “Gentleman Moe” and try to collect any information about him. People just trying to mimic his swing are missing a big part of his genius and specially the mental aspect.
I hope not to be out of the subject if I ask you to tell us about your meetings with Moe Norman.?
Thanking you one more time to share your great experience.

Guru:

Thanks heaps, yes I am working overtime. I see what is actually possible if I develop my mechanics and kinetic chain to optimal levels. I am hungrier than ever and am willing to work overtime to achieve what is truly possible. I am my own toughest critic and want to possess all of my ball striking ability ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú If I am not doing it perfectly, I am not fulfilling what I can potentially achieve. Golf machine and K-Vest have been a true eye opener into what is actually possible. I am not even close to operating at 100% capacity.

Obviously my goals are a little different to the traditional golfer, the power is present but without making an optimal compression and strike on the ball at impact I realise this power will never be maximised!

Can't wait to put our swings side by side at some point in time. ;-)

Really appreciate all your continued assistance in my development.

AB
Wondering if you got my reply to your question a few days back – Also, are you involved/play in the Australasian Fire Golf?

Ditty:

Yeah I did, sorry, good to meet you too!

No I am not involved in Australasian Fire Golf – tell me more?

We have the traditional golf clubs as you know here and of course the WPFG every 2 years but I don’t compete in either as my concentration is on Long Drive. Maybe I should be approaching them to start such a competition up?

LP:

Thanks heaps for your advice. Makes perfect sense. I sat down last night and worked out all the components of my machine as they currently stand and it has definitely given me a perspective of its overall operation.

Apologies everyone as I realise this is probably not the place for this conversation.

AB
The Australasian Firegolf is made up of Firies all over Aus and NZ. We play our own comps throughout the year with intercity shield and club championships then we all get together in a different city each year around early November – this year it’s Canberra, next year I think it’s NT, then Perth and maybe after that NZ. The Australasian starts on a Sunday with welcome drinks etc. Then Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday we play golf – The wives/partners/girlfriends/husbands come along – a planned itinerary keeps them occupied. You don’t have to be a firie to play but there are some restrictions. Some Vic Firies you may know – 2007 Club Champion; PAUL SANDILANDS
A Grade; STEVE SMITH
B Grade; IAN MUNTZ
C Grade; TONY MARTIN
Our website – http://www.firegolf.com.au/
You can email me firie77 at y7mail dot com

Ditty:

No worries will check it out and be in touch, thanks for the info.

slinger

lag… one other thing when you say after impact the left shoulder should move as far away from the ball as possible would you be ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìfeeling” that move as a horizontal/parallel motion to the ground or angular or vertical??

The flatter the rotation of the torso, the faster the left shoulder is moving away from the ball in terms is actual distance. If the shoulders are moving steep through impact, you are not maximizing the potential of #4 accumulator. This is why it is not uncommon to see a short in height golfer bomb the ball a long way (Ian Woosnam).... especially if they have wide shoulders genetically. Broad shoulders would be the genetics of choice.. tall people for basketball, small people for horse jockeys!

Thanks for reply lag and now i grasp everything you are saying…now stop writing cause your giving away hogan’s secret moves

Hogan had many secrets! Not just one.. more like a series of secrets all working together in perfect harmony.

One of Hogan’s secrets is that he used persimmon and blade irons..
He got incredible feedback from every shot in practice and on the golf course.. If you look at the archaic gear he used back then it can really give you an added appreciation for just how good he was, and how pure his swing had to be to consistently flush blade 1 or 2 irons off tight lies..

Players today will never pure it like that, they don’t have to… so the don’t.

I suspect we will never see swings develop like they did back then..
To really flush it pure like Hogan, Snead, even Moe Norman, those
swings developed from the equipment they were using, the sweet spot was still there on those clubs, but much smaller so swings had to be better.

philthevet

All things Moe!

I first met Moe in 1987 at Thunderbird CC in Toronto at Q school.
This guy was on the range just rapid firing shots, one after another,
he would hit balls so fast, talking while he was swinging, and calling his targets on the range as he was doing it, and moving them around.

He wasn’t really known much outside of Canada.. I think when Golf Digest did the article on him (Cover)... that is when most people started
hearing and talking about Moe.

I played with Moe in a pro am in Saskatchewan and spent a lot of time talking to him. He wasn’t all that easy to get to know.. but back then people still kind of ignored him as some kind of wierdo, crazy guy..

If he wasn’t hitting balls he was usually sitting alone somewhere just talking to himself or eating a sandwich alone in a corner like a rejected child. He didn’t shower often so you would have to deal with a lot of body odor, and that pushed people away.

Like a lot of people in golf (good players) they can describe what they feel, but most don’t really know what they do. Moe let me film him at Red Deer CC in Alberta in 1987, I used a Sony CCDV101
with a 10,000 shutter speed camera, I got every angle imaginable
and then some, different clubs, even sand shots.. It is probably some of the best footage of Moe ever recorded, there was stuff from before with film cameras, and later in the 90’s when everyone was interested in Moe, but he still hit it pretty good in 1987, much better than he did later in the 90’s..

So I spent a lot of time looking at those tapes and learned a great deal.

The biggest impression Moe gave me was that he made golf look easy.

Rhythm, rhythm, rhythm, and the ability to rapid fire shots in practice is something I took to heart and worked into my practice routine.

He treated golf as if it was a reaction sport, like tennis, he would just give his brain no time to think, everything was on automatic. Probably the fastest player ever.

The stories go on and on, but I remember when we played he would putt so fast.. that if you were stepping over his line the ball might just roll between your legs as you were doing so. He hated slow play. No concern for yardages, everything was instinct.. automatic and just incredible rhythm..

I have never seen anyone else swing like him effectively..
and he did hit millions of balls to get there.

It’s a swinging move, with a full roll duel horizontal hinge an a ton of 5th accumulator. He just pulls forever!

Hogan had many secrets! Not just one.. more like a series of secrets all working together in perfect harmony.

One of Hogan's secrets is that he used persimmon and blade irons..
He got incredible feedback from every shot in practice and on the golf course.. If you look at the archaic gear he used back then it can really give you an added appreciation for just how good he was, and how pure his swing had to be to consistently flush blade 1 or 2 irons off tight lies..

Players today will never pure it like that, they don't have to… so the don't.

I suspect we will never see swings develop like they did back then..
To really flush it pure like Hogan, Snead, even Moe Norman, those
swings developed from the equipment they were using, the sweet spot was still there on those clubs, but much smaller so swings had to be better.

Lag do you think its possible to have a swinging action (pulling)down to the impact zone and then make a hard pivot ( like the one you describe)and use a hitting thrust with the right forearm/shoulder or does this go against the laws of Golf

Lag Pressure

Your arguments make no sense from a HK-TGM perspective.

You state-: “My sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3 together) 4.It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released on the way down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left? If your intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then the feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after impact must be your goal.”

I cannot envisage that it is physically possible to move the hands faster than the clubhead after impact. If the clubhead is still travelling at >100mph after impact, are you implying that the hands are moving faster than 100mph?

You also imply that the power accumulator release sequence should be 1,2/3,4. That is totally contrary to HK’s teaching. Also, what would be the advantage of activating additional release of power accumulator #4 after impact – when the ball has already left the clubhead? You write-: “Homer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre impact clubhead speed, but post as well… and this is where I believe that what happens after impact is just as important as what has happened before.” If you believe that ball speed/distance is affected by post-impact clubhead speed (causally related to the release of power accumulator #4), then you need to present a coherent explanatory argument fully explicating your controversial point of view.

Jeff.

Lag Pressure

Your arguments make no sense from a HK-TGM perspective.

You state-: ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìMy sequence of accumulator release would be 1 (2+3 together) 4.It is of course inevitable that some of 4 is being released on the way down, but after impact, what could you possibly have left? If your intent is to keep the clubhead accelerating after impact, then the feeling of your hands moving faster than the clubhead after impact must be your goal.”

I cannot envisage that it is physically possible to move the hands faster than the clubhead after impact. If the clubhead is still travelling at >100mph after impact, are you implying that the hands are moving faster than 100mph?

You also imply that the power accumulator release sequence should be 1,2/3,4. That is totally contrary to HK's teaching. Also, what would be the advantage of activating additional release of power accumulator #4 after impact ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú when the ball has already left the clubhead? You write-: ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìHomer is correct that there could only be 4 accumulators prior to impact, but we also know that ball speed, is affected by not only pre impact clubhead speed, but post as well… and this is where I believe that what happens after impact is just as important as what has happened before.” If you believe that ball speed/distance is affected by post-impact clubhead speed (causally related to the release of power accumulator #4), then you need to present a coherent explanatory argument fully explicating your controversial point of view.

Jeff.

Jeffmann why do you consider this controversial? Is it your opinion that Homer Kelley who after all could not play golf very well got every part 100% correct? He may have got a lot right but some will be wrong…. just the way it is…...as for lag’s theory he is talking about “feels” that only good athletes will achieve….so you probably better stick to the basics

Jeff
read the post that Lag made, then read it again, try not to get caught on something you think he is saying from first reading.

description of a feeling is not necessarily a statement about what is actually happening

Jeff,

Please don’t spoil this good flow of interesting golf talk with “facts” just yet.

This is enjoyable and expanding. I am getting new stuff to think with. Do you know how rare that is after 45 years.

Jeff,
how about kick back for while, be quiet and listen, lagpressure is one of the first homer disciples and it’s music to my ears, to hear someone giving us an inside into feel of mechanics and different prospectives.
Part of learning is listening,
There is no controversy hear, only what your trying to create.
Please don’t destroy a great thread with facts,
This is about a feel, which I’m enjoying every single post lagpressure presents.

Lag pressure, thankyou I have learnt so much off you,
And I would like to ask, if you could right a book on your life experience on tour and your T.G.M experiences, What you have learnt, so your life work is documented and can be passed on.
And I hope the dart does the same as well. Your information is valuable ,And I know thousands of golfers would pay anything for your knowledge