Jeff:

You truly show your ignorance in the performance of a good golf swing at times! Re-read Lag Pressures statement with regards to “this is what I feel like I am doing”, not “this is what you have to achieve”.

Then read your post. Do you wonder why people get on you for your statements? You are just plain confrontational to someone who will understand the workings of the golf swing in a manner you will never possess. What lag pressure says makes perfect sense to someone who can actually perform the golf swing with a high degree of proficiency.

Have you ever stopped and thought that you can not understand because you have never performed a golf swing proficiently enough?

Learn to put the theory into practice and you might develop some modicum of understanding. Until then do us all a favour: shut up and listen! To those of us at an elite level of performance lag pressure is giving us information that would take years to discover working by ourselves.

You are just plain confrontational to someone who will understand the workings of the golf swing in a manner you will never possess.

lol, this could be said about a lot of people
I often have found Jeff’s comments useful, apart from the occasional straw horse, he has a different perspective, and an understanding of the workings of the golf swing that I will never possess :P

I ask that people be a little more generous in their interpretation of posts, try to play the ideas more and the man less

Sonab,
we appologise, but this is a great thread by lagpressure and we are all learning a great deal from him, He gives insight to feel of mechanics and his experiences, which gives us another angle to look at golf with, we aren’t interested in the facts, but the feeling applied, We jumped on jeff cause we went to stay away from the theory, but focus on the practical and feel of mechanics, this thread is about feel not theory, learning how a great player applied homers work and made a living out of it.
We all know the theory, we are interested in the feeling applied, and don’t want to hear about theory, it’s a breath of fresh air to hear someone talk about feelings and not theory for a change.
So lets keep it this way,

Well I am not so sure I understand what is so controversial here..

I believe that high science has shown that ball speed is affected by clubhead speed measured at two moments in time, pre and post impact. This is not a mystery..just common sense.

If you were playing Rugby and you are the one standing still, and someone comes running to tackle you, would you rather he hit you and you don’t move as he drops to the ground? ... or would you rather he hit you and suddenly you go flying right along with him? Can you feel that? That is what the golf ball feels… the greater the speed after impact the harder the hit.. common sense..

If we know this to be true and I think we all do… then what are the power accumulators left after impact to keep the clubhead driving through the ball? There must be something going on after impact..
If your right arm has straightened on the way down and it is spent,
the wrists have uncocked and rotated, we only have #4 if we have not spun out too early, or as Ben Doyle used to say to me “hips running down the fairway”. If we continue to try to accelerate the club after impact to the 4rth parallel with #4 and now even beyond,
(remember acceleration means speed is increasing exponentially)
we would need to continue our efforts to move the club as quickly as possible long after the ball is gone.

I can say this, if I were to finish my swing on an elbow plane, (extremely flat) I can guarantee I would lose lots of distance.
Has anyone ever seen a thunderous ball striker finish with their hands belt high and around their body and behind them? I would imagine not… if so, please let me see this really.

Long hitters will pass their hands through a very high position at some point in their finish…they may retreat to something that looks flat as their hands drop down from a high finish…..you see this look from the long hitters and long swingers..

With hitters, they have the best chance to capitalize from the 5th accumulator because of the position of their hands at the 4th parallel. In other words, by using radial acceleration and an angled hinge their hands will be close to the body just inches away, so they have all this room to now rip the clubshaft up to a shoulder plain.
This takes a lot of force, and it is this force that is now taking over for the spent #4 after the hips have cleared out and are spent, the torso has rotated around and their is really not much else the pivot of the body can do. The upper arms have been tightly packed against the body and now it is their turn to release, so they separate from the body with what I think would be the rotator cuff muscles and raise the shaft from elbow to shoulder plane in a very quick and powerful motion.

Now in a swinging procedure, there is no 5th accumulator because after impact the clubhead has been accelerating longitudinally and all the force is to be dumped into the ball and downward into the ground, via the arc of approach, so after impact the upper arms release from the body and the hands move away from the body, they do not stay in close like Hogan, or other classic hitters.

I think a lot of people really don’t understand the difference between radial acceleration and longitudinal acceleration.

The best way I can describe it would be if you are using longitudinal acceleration you are trying to throw the force of the clubhead into the ground below you and somewhat towards the target but out to the right and into the earth below you…. as compared with radial acceleration you would be trying to throw the club at the target or even better yet, left of the target and somewhat skyward.

So if you were to try to find your lost club, if you are a swinger, you would start walking toward the pin, take about 10 steps, then make a 90 degree right turn, take another 10 steps, then get out a shovel and dig a hole in the ground about 30 feet deep to find your club.

If you are a hitter, you take 10 steps toward the pin, then a 90 degree left turn and then take 10 steps, you would then look up into the trees and try to spot your club you just tossed up there about 30 feet up in the tree.

Very different intent, and as guru says, you can’t try to do both!
both can hit great golf shots, and bad ones too! pick your poison!

Well I am not so sure I understand what is so controversial here..

I believe that high science has shown that ball speed is affected by clubhead speed measured at two moments in time, pre and post impact. This is not a mystery..just common sense.

If you were playing Rugby and you are the one standing still, and someone comes running to tackle you, would you rather he hit you and you don't move as he drops to the ground? ... or would you rather he hit you and suddenly you go flying right along with him? Can you feel that? That is what the golf ball feels… the greater the speed after impact the harder the hit.. common sense..

If we know this to be true and I think we all do… then what are the power accumulators left after impact to keep the clubhead driving through the ball? There must be something going on after impact..
If your right arm has straightened on the way down and it is spent,
the wrists have uncocked and rotated, we only have #4 if we have not spun out too early, or as Ben Doyle used to say to me ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìhips running down the fairway”. If we continue to try to accelerate the club after impact to the 4rth parallel with #4 and now even beyond,
(remember acceleration means speed is increasing exponentially)
we would need to continue our efforts to move the club as quickly as possible long after the ball is gone.

I can say this, if I were to finish my swing on an elbow plane, (extremely flat) I can guarantee I would lose lots of distance.
Has anyone ever seen a thunderous ball striker finish with their hands belt high and around their body and behind them? I would imagine not… if so, please let me see this really.

Long hitters will pass their hands through a very high position at some point in their finish…they may retreat to something that looks flat as their hands drop down from a high finish…..you see this look from the long hitters and long swingers..

With hitters, they have the best chance to capitalize from the 5th accumulator because of the position of their hands at the 4th parallel. In other words, by using radial acceleration and an angled hinge their hands will be close to the body just inches away, so they have all this room to now rip the clubshaft up to a shoulder plain.
This takes a lot of force, and it is this force that is now taking over for the spent #4 after the hips have cleared out and are spent, the torso has rotated around and their is really not much else the pivot of the body can do. The upper arms have been tightly packed against the body and now it is their turn to release, so they separate from the body with what I think would be the rotator cuff muscles and raise the shaft from elbow to shoulder plane in a very quick and powerful motion.

Now in a swinging procedure, there is no 5th accumulator because after impact the clubhead has been accelerating longitudinally and all the force is to be dumped into the ball and downward into the ground, via the arc of approach, so after impact the upper arms release from the body and the hands move away from the body, they do not stay in close like Hogan, or other classic hitters.

I think a lot of people really don't understand the difference between radial acceleration and longitudinal acceleration.

The best way I can describe it would be if you are using longitudinal acceleration you are trying to throw the force of the clubhead into the ground below you and somewhat towards the target but out to the right and into the earth below you…. as compared with radial acceleration you would be trying to throw the club at the target or even better yet, left of the target and somewhat skyward.

So if you were to try to find your lost club, if you are a swinger, you would start walking toward the pin, take about 10 steps, then make a 90 degree right turn, take another 10 steps, then get out a shovel and dig a hole in the ground about 30 feet deep to find your club.

If you are a hitter, you take 10 steps toward the pin, then a 90 degree left turn and then take 10 steps, you would then look up into the trees and try to spot your club you just tossed up there about 30 feet up in the tree.

Very different intent, and as guru says, you can't try to do both!
both can hit great golf shots, and bad ones too! pick your poison!

lag your post once again makes me ponder if it is possible to have a swingers action with the longitudinal acceleration deep into the downswing ( pull it more down and towards your left foot) and then add the radial acceleration with the right forearm/hand with the hard/late pivot at impact

Slinger

Many things are possible especially after you have mastered the basics.

Get the simple stuff stored in you head first then these thing are on.

Slinger

Many things are possible especially after you have mastered the basics.

Get the simple stuff stored in you head first then these thing are on.

Thanks Dart and next time im back in the big smoke it would be great if i could get some lessons

Lag
Thank you so much to take time for your Moes memories . it is full of sensitivity and I appreciate
Back to TGM: I have readen and printed your posts . As a hitter I was feeling that I had a lot to pick up :)
When reading, I was a bit confused with your release sequence 1/(2+3)/4. I had bad experiences with the traditional 4/1/2/3 four barrels for hitters , and was very happy and safe with the 1/2/3 sequence.
But I decided to give a chance and tried it today at the practice range.
After some adjustments I want to tell you that I was smacking it really hard , with new feelings. For me the “secret” was to try to delay #4 to the maximum, as if I was releasing it after impact . Everything is not yet well coordinated of course (delayed hip rotation???), but I still have the safety of my 1/2/3 sequence and feel that I have some “strengh rˆÉ¬©serve” that I never suspected. THANK YOU!! The journey is never finished..
Question: don’t you think that your #5 is in fact a super #4, delayed to its maximum, releasing during impact and still accelerating after impact, and pulling the body like you describe, for exemple in Peter senior ’s swing?
Thank you

I think like delaying #4 as long as possible, or really saving as much of it as possible. It is of course inevitable that the torso will rotate some on the downswing, but after impact, 2 and 3 are unloaded, and if you are turning with flat shoulders to maximize the pivot rotation then you will have had to spend 1 as well to keep the hands on plane.
This is one of O Grady’s big points, straighten the right arm out quickly on the downswing as the torso rotates, as if you were dropping your hands into your right hip pocket, this keeps the hand on plane so you don’t come OTT … it is a very strange feeling, but once mastered, very powerful..

The right arm straightens to about 120 degrees at the 3rd parallel then stays frozen through the hitting area and all the way over to the 4rth parallel.. only from then does it try to straighten in sequence with the 5th accumulator.

The key feeling to maximize #5 if you are hitting is to move the shaft
low, flat and around to the lefft after impact, then rip the shaft upright to a shoulder plane… with the rotator cuff muscles raising the upper arms quickly off the body.. Norman, Peter Senior, and Tiger all do this very well.

Accelerate forever!

I suspect the 120 degree frozen right arm from 3rd to 4rth parallel is what Hogan was describing as “wishing he had 3 right arms”.. kind of like smacking the ball with a stiff frozen right arm.

If you look close, you will see that Hogan’s right arm is still bent after impact almost to the 4rth parallel, and Peter Senior as well. This keeping the right arm stiff and bent 120 degrees allows for the firm support to the angled hinge through the hitting area. If the right arm straightens it wants to close the clubface if you are angle hinging and using radial acceleration.

The feeling is that the hands are not rotating at all, just turning in unison with the torso all the way up the finish..

Want to learn to really pipe it straight even when the body feels stiff and tight? This is the kind of swing that travels well.. and can win golf tournaments under pressure..

Thank you Lag
I will work on the 120ˆÇ¬ƒ right arm. I think I was straighten it to early trying to straighten DOWN and out in the ball.
I feel like Zac Johnson swing is rather close to yours imperatives . I’m right ?

Zac Swingvision

Thank you

,
(remember acceleration means speed is increasing exponentially)

Sorry to detract from a very good thread and discussion, however, I believe that you might want to rethink this statement.

To those who believe that you can release the 4th power accumulator after impact, and after release of power accumulator #1,2/3 – what represents a full release of power accumulator #4. According to HK, the 4th power accumulator is loaded during the backswing, when the left arm is drawn across the chest thus narrowing the angle between the left arm and torso. When the 4th power accumulator releases (unloads) the angle between the left arm and chest wall increases. So, three questions.

1) What is the angle that represents a full release of the 4th power accumulator?

2) What is the angle at impact?

3) What is the angle at full release, and when does it occur in the swing?

Jeff.

Phil – you wrote-: “For me the ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìsecret” was to try to delay #4 to the maximum, as if I was releasing it after impact.”

How do you delay release of power accumulator #4? What causes the release in your swing and how to your delay its release? At what point in your swing is it releasing? Are any other power accumulators releasing before power accumulator #4 in your swing?

Jeff.

Lagpressure – you wrote-: “I suspect the 120 degree frozen right arm from 3rd to 4rth parallel is what Hogan was describing as ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìwishing he had 3 right arms”.. kind of like smacking the ball with a stiff frozen right arm.”

Are you asserting that Hogan was a hitter or a swinger?

Note that his right arm is straight after impact, at the end of the followthrough, well before he reaches the parallel position in the finish phase of the swing.

Hogan’s right arm straightening post-impact

Jeff.

According to HK, the 4th power accumulator is loaded during the backswing, when the left arm is drawn across the chest thus narrowing the angle between the left arm and torso.

Jeff
6-B-4-0 (Fourth Accumulator) is the angle formed by the left arm and left shoulder – not the torso.

[One needs to be specific :-) ]

Wilkie

I agree one that needs to be precise. Although HK wrote about the angle between the left arm and the left shoulder, his photos accompanying 6-B-4-0 show that the angle point (junction) is at the left shoulder joint, but the two lines forming the acute angle are i) a line drawn along the length of the left arm, and ii) a line drawn across the front of the torso between the two shoulder joints. It could not be otherwise – because the left shoulder joint is a point location and not a linear object. An angle can only be formed between two lines.

I would therefore be happy to modify my statement and say the “angle between the left arm and the torso between the shoulder socket joints with the angle point location situated at the left shoulder socket”.

Jeff.

Lagpressure ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú you wrote-: ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìI suspect the 120 degree frozen right arm from 3rd to 4rth parallel is what Hogan was describing as ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìwishing he had 3 right arms”.. kind of like smacking the ball with a stiff frozen right arm.”

Are you asserting that Hogan was a hitter or a swinger?

Note that his right arm is straight after impact, at the end of the followthrough, well before he reaches the parallel position in the finish phase of the swing.

Hogan's right arm straightening post-impact

Jeff.

Jeffmann looks like in that photo that no4 hasn’t run off anywhere

Jeff:

Far out you know how to wreck a good and positive thread!

Slinger

What point are you trying to make about #4 not having run off anywhere? Why should there be a change in the power accumulator #4 angle post-impact?

Jeff.

AB

You would have done well as a staunch member of the Catholic Church when Galileo presented his theory about the earth being round and the earth circling around the sun. You would have said that Galileo was wrecking a sound/positive church theory that had demonstrated that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.

“Good and positive” are adjectives that suit the mind of a person who chooses that “reality” be subservient to his whims, rather than “reality” being what it truly is – “reality” based on objective scientific analysis and not based on sentiment. The fundamental principle of science is that any theory must be subjected to tests of falsification, and that only non-falsifiable theories should be taken seriously. You prefer a non-scientific attitude where you only want your pet theories to be verified rather than being subjected to falsification challenges, which are needed to test their likely scientific legitimacy.

Jeff.

The title of the thread is “Let’s talk golf machine.”
Jeff is not out of line in talking Golf Machine when he sees something that doesn’t jive with his understanding of TGM, or biomechanics as that’s his field. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. A visit to his web site is well worth the trip.

Hogan was a swinger. TGM describes the follow-through as both arms straight, which is well before parallel, right wrist still bent, club head pointing at the plane line.

From the book, paraphrasing:
“The fourth power accumulator is pivot power supplying the initial acceleration to throw the lever assemblies toward impact by the thrust of the right shoulder turn. Left arm power could substitute for the pivot to introduce circular motion.”
And also:
“For maximum power, the position must be taken that allows for all components except for right shoulder and foot to reach or pass the line-of-sight to the ball [that means right elbow also for maximum trigger delay of #1 bent right arm], then the accumulators must move very rapidly toward their in-line conditions. None should actually arrive (lose all their lag and drag) until well after impact.“

I interpret this to mean that “released” does not also mean “spent”.
The 4th accumulator’s inline condition it seeks is with the shoulders, and is never reached, it seems to me. This brings into question the phrase ”..blast the left arm off the chest.” (which is also in The Book). When would that happen? I never notice it.
And it lends credence to Hogan’s and Ballard’s and Vijay Singh’s, et al’s towel under the left arm drills. The towel drops, if at all, in the finish move, above parallel.

AB

You would have done well as a staunch member of the Catholic Church when Galileo presented his theory about the earth being round and the earth circling around the sun. You would have said that Galileo was wrecking a sound/positive church theory that had demonstrated that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.

ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìGood and positive” are adjectives that suit the mind of a person who chooses that ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreality” be subservient to his whims, rather than ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreality” being what it truly is ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreality” based on objective scientific analysis and not based on sentiment. The fundamental principle of science is that any theory must be subjected to tests of falsification, and that only non-falsifiable theories should be taken seriously. You prefer a non-scientific attitude where you only want your pet theories to be verified rather than being subjected to falsification challenges, which are needed to test their likely scientific legitimacy.

Jeff.

Jeff you are, of course, correct re, the scientific method.

And, in addition, we need to encourage lateral thinkers as well as logical thinkers.

LP has taken Homer's research and built on it. We do ourselves a disservice not to listen carefully to what he has to say.

I wrote posts on the 22/3 and the 23/3 re. a suggested project for you. Please think about it. It could make a real contribution to this forum if you take it on.

Cheers

Slinger

What point are you trying to make about #4 not having run off anywhere? Why should there be a change in the power accumulator #4 angle post-impact?

Jeff.

Jeffmann i am referring to the pressure point 4 and as you can see in hogan’s case it has not been “blasted” off . Hogan did this for a reason and you have to find that answer for yourself i.e in the dirt…..personally i like Lagpressure’s description of the feelings perhaps cause i can associate it to my own swing

Hogan was a swinger.

Loren a swinger early career i can agree but later on i can’t agree that he was a 3 barrel swinger…..my opinion is 4 barrel hitter/swinger’s pivot plus i see angle hinge happening…..so switter imo

Wilkie,

You are wasting your time. Jeff does not play with the boys – only against.

Hogan was a swinger.

Loren a swinger early career i can agree but later on i can't agree that he was a 3 barrel swinger…..my opinion is 4 barrel hitter/swinger's pivot plus i see angle hinge happening…..so switter imo

OK, you might be right. However, remember that hinging does not define the difference between hitter and swinger.

It’s oft said that Hogan fought a hook all his career, and after the accident he learned how to hit a high fade with power. I’ve heard the opinion that it was his strong grip that caused the hook, or his rapid hip action. I don’t know. He’s obviously compensating for the hook.

There’s a story that Walter “Smiley” Jones tells on Mike Austin’s DVD that while Hogan was in the hospital he called Mike and said that he wanted to learn how to fade it. When he got out they played together at the Bel Air Country Club, and Mike Austin taught Hogan how to hit the power fade. Well, that may be a tall tale from “Smiley”, a good friend of Austin’s, but Austin was a very long hitter and trained Mike Dunaway, a World Long Drive champion, and they were swinging. Mike Austin says “throw it, right from the top”, indicating right forearm participation, but his pivot, #4 accumulator, etc. is all swinging.

I think Hogan was compensating with his hands, but it doesn’t mean he was a hitter.

Phil ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú you wrote-: ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìFor me the ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìsecret” was to try to delay #4 to the maximum, as if I was releasing it after impact.”

Jeff
Sorry , but I’m in my own quest and unable to give a competent answer at the moment
By the way, I read your daily posts on LBG site too. Where the hell do you find all this time for so much (controversial?) prose??
You make me really jalous :(

Hogan was a swinger.

Loren a swinger early career i can agree but later on i can't agree that he was a 3 barrel swinger…..my opinion is 4 barrel hitter/swinger's pivot plus i see angle hinge happening…..so switter imo

OK, you might be right. However, remember that hinging does not define the difference between hitter and swinger.

It's oft said that Hogan fought a hook all his career, and after the accident he learned how to hit a high fade with power. I've heard the opinion that it was his strong grip that caused the hook, or his rapid hip action. I don't know. He's obviously compensating for the hook.

There's a story that Walter ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìSmiley” Jones tells on Mike Austin's DVD that while Hogan was in the hospital he called Mike and said that he wanted to learn how to fade it. When he got out they played together at the Bel Air Country Club, and Mike Austin taught Hogan how to hit the power fade. Well, that may be a tall tale from ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìSmiley”, a good friend of Austin's, but Austin was a very long hitter and trained Mike Dunaway, a World Long Drive champion, and they were swinging. Mike Austin says ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìthrow it, right from the top”, indicating right forearm participation, but his pivot, #4 accumulator, etc. is all swinging.

I think Hogan was angle hinging, but it doesn't mean he was a hitter.

correct me if i’m wrong Loren but would not a true swinger as defined by tgm use horizontal hinge exclusively…..and from the story above…a good one and believable…it would add credence to hogan having some hitting component in his swing…just all semantics really

AB

You would have done well as a staunch member of the Catholic Church when Galileo presented his theory about the earth being round and the earth circling around the sun. You would have said that Galileo was wrecking a sound/positive church theory that had demonstrated that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.

ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìGood and positive” are adjectives that suit the mind of a person who chooses that ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreality” be subservient to his whims, rather than ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreality” being what it truly is ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìreality” based on objective scientific analysis and not based on sentiment. The fundamental principle of science is that any theory must be subjected to tests of falsification, and that only non-falsifiable theories should be taken seriously. You prefer a non-scientific attitude where you only want your pet theories to be verified rather than being subjected to falsification challenges, which are needed to test their likely scientific legitimacy.

Jeff.

Jeff:

That’s fine you can say what ever you like about me, you know why? You are truly insignificant!

Like I have said 100 times to you put your theory into practice, everything looks fantastic on paper. Not once have I questioned the value of TGM’s scientific efficacy. But you prove time and time again that you really don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.

Galileo was a real scientist Jeff, unlike yourself he simply did not postulate a theory and never practically test it. This is where you differ, you are all words and no actions! You live your life through what you see other golfers doing and try to relate it back to theory. If you actually went out and bothered to put it into practice, you would see what a fool you truly are being!

We are truely fortunate having someone like Lag Pressure here. Not only has he studied Homer Kelley’s work, he has actually put it into practice! But you have to go and ruin it for everyone but postulating the theories. If you truly had one inkling about the golf swing in a practical nature you would realise what you are a) missing out on and b) what you are spoiling for the rest of us!

Even Homer Kelley put his work into practice – succesfully! This is true science Jeff! You work out a theory on paper then you actually get out and practically test it!

Don’t be mad Jeff because I can actually do it, my understanding of the theories behind what we do is also coming along nicely. How are your practical attempts coming along? I truly feel sorry for you. Theories are all you will ever have! You will never realise the true genius of someone like Lag Pressure, because you choose not to concentrate on doing, you are totally blind to what he is saying!

Like a great mathematician once said.. “Go forth and multiply!”

Slinger, we are all switters to some extent. Rare is the “pure”.
Yes, a pure swinger would naturally use HH, but not exclusively.

To go all pedantic on you, I must quote from 10-19 Lag Loading component:

“Hinge action does NOT differentiate hitting and swinging.
Hitters using horizontal hinging must consciously resist the tendency of right arm paddlewheel action toward angled hinging.
Swingers using angled hinging must consciously resist the tendency of centrifugal force toward horizontal hinging. Both procedures require skill in clubface manipulation. Clubface manipulation for swinging requires the same grip type as for hitters. [strong, single action].”

The key to swinging is smooth constant acceleration. Overacceleration is the bane of all lag and drag. It would not make sense to add right arm power to get to a 4-barrel swing. For a 4-barrel hitter the pivot power thrust (#4) has to be very short to avoid the throwaway.

I would agree that the early Hogan looked Swinging, and the classic later version is all about hitting with the angle hinge..
I can’t imagine swinging with longitudinal acceleration using an angled hinge unless I wanted to block the ball way right all the time..

Moe Norman told me that when he talked to Hogan, Ben was all about “bacon strip” divots, so that really sounds like low point ball position and angled hinging…

This Hogan photo shows his use of the angled hinge and the right arm bent at around 120 degrees after impact..

click on the photo to see it… for those who don’t see all of it..

Slinger, we are all switters to some extent. Rare is the ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìpure”.
Yes, a pure swinger would naturally use HH, but not exclusively.

To go all pedantic on you, I must quote from 10-19 Lag Loading component:

ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìHinge action does NOT differentiate hitting and swinging.
Hitters using horizontal hinging must consciously resist the tendency of right arm paddlewheel action toward angled hinging.
Swingers using angled hinging must consciously resist the tendency of centrifugal force toward horizontal hinging. Both procedures require skill in clubface manipulation. Clubface manipulation for swinging requires the same grip type as for hitters. [strong, single action].”

The key to swinging is smooth constant acceleration. Overacceleration is the bane of all lag and drag. It would not make sense to add right arm power to get to a 4-barrel swing. For a 4-barrel hitter the pivot power thrust (#4) has to be very short to avoid the throwaway.

Loren thanks for your knowlege and i understand what you are saying but clubface manipulation can be done with any grip and since i would consider hogan’s pivot to be a very late pivot due to the huge lateral motion by his right leg the hitting thrust can still be added with the late pivot thrust…..so for lagpressure’s theory which i can associate the feel to the cigar is still burning… i am not arguing with you

That’s one to put into the “computer”!

As PURE as the driven snow!

LP:

Did hogan play from a slightly closed stance with the hips square?

I believe the reality of power package release sequence is that there is quite a bit of overlap going on, and it is also a reality that there can be a turn on and off… then on again situation as well..

I consider #1 to go first in my swing, meaning that it is the first to be exhausted. My right arm is bent 90 degrees at the top of my backswing and it straightens 30 degrees as I arrive at the 3rd parallel,
so it is now at 120 degrees, this angle is held past impact.. it certainly releases before 2 and 3..

To complicate things I would also state that I start my downswing initially with #4, just to change the direction but then it feels very quiet until right before impact, where the left knee and hip fire quickly and ferociously!

I believe #4 overlaps all the others, of course it has to… because the pivot is in fact turning some all the way down… I just don’t believe that the power package assembly release sequence is all that cut and dry.
Two and three certainly have some overlapping going on..
and they also are spent into impact.. but I still have a lot of #4 left.
You must realize that #4 has a far greater span of kinetic motion..
the whole essence of #4 is very wide… I can turn it on they wait, then REALLY turn it on..!

I think the important thing is to know WHAT THE POWER ACCUMULATORS ARE! Learn to FEEL them in your swing,
and learn how to train them to work together in an effective way to maximize ACCELERATION of the clubhead. Find ways to strengthen those muscles, tone them, and make them do their job of applying power and force to the SHAFT!!!!! during impact and beyond!

I believe Hogan liked to keep his ball position straight down from his armpit, just prior to true low point. I agree he seems to look a bit more closed with the longer irons and woods, and slightly open with the shorter irons.. I believe he just moved his right foot back slightly as the clubs got longer, and then of course slightly more closed..

As the clubs get longer, they get heavier too, and as you rotate more the longer clubs create more outward force, so maintaining a true angle hinge, and the 120 degree bent right arm after impact becomes increasingly more cumbersome as the clubs get longer.

My swing feels exactly the same from wedge to driver, but the force exerted upon my hands, arms and body feels much greater with the longer clubs, and you can see it in high speed photos…. but the intent to hold the same impact alignments is constant and decisive.

I see this in all good ball strikers.. there is an inevitable expanding as clubhead speed increases and the clubs themselves get longer..

This is why it’s easier to hit short irons straighter. I play a 43” driver for this reason, I prefer to hit the ball straight.. depending upon pin position on the green, I am thinking birdie even if I have 4 iron in my hand. I’ll take a shot off the fairway from 200 than 130 in the trees any day…

Lag Pressure:

Makes sense. I think I have it visually. Just to make sure…

As #1 is utilised, #4 will be partially utilised also. How can it not as you drop the club “into the slot”? From the release point #2 & #3 get unleashed and continue to be utilised through the ball. Just prior to impact #4 is unleashed again with the pivot, the “slinging feeling” down and out?

It also makes sense to me that #4 would continue to be accelerated as we don’t quit through impact. Power on to the end, long and high!

Some of the guys on the Long Drive tour do this move so hard, the often snap the shaft over their back/neck! Or at times it bounces and recoils!

When does the left arm seperate from the body or do you prefer it to maintain contact until the follow through is being completed?

What would be the benefits of dropping the right foot slightly back with say Driver? It does feel more comfortable.

Do you feel like you stay “on top” of the ball when hitting driver?

Loren,
I will tell you a few home truths ,jeff is a doctor and that is it, he isn’t a qualified biomechanist, he doesn’t use biomechanic technology and is a great insult to our professional for him to be acknowledge, jeff pulls raw data off the interenet and adds his bull sh…t opinion, which is misleading and untrue, I’m a qualified biomechanist and can assure you he doesn’t have a clue about biomechanics, he doesn’t even know what biomechanic formulas are.

T.G.M is the mechanics, biomechanics is the bodies fuction and motion of T.G.M mechaincs, If he fully understood biomechanics or T.G.M as he claims, he wouldn’t ask such riduclous questions, he would understand we are talking FEEL here not theory,
Which I’m sick of talking about, it nice to hear someone putting a feeling to mechanics for a change, Wow I know I have learnt a great deal.
Sorry Loren, I’m sick off people believing jeff is into biomechanics when it’s a mislead blantant lie, and readers get mislead and wrong idea because of jeffs bullsh…t views on biomechanics which are totally wrong

Lagpressure,
Music to my ears, talking about feel and adding this to mechanics,
It’s a grey area and nice to hear a goodplayer describe how mechanics work applied with feel, keep up the great post

Loren, I will tell you a few home truths

Don’t you think this is getting quite silly? If you disagree with jeff, his credentials and his world view perhaps you should just ignore him instead of resorting to personal putdowns and protracted slanging matches

I am henceforth going to boycott what started of as a great topic from a very interesting contributor… lag, can you perhaps start something else and let these guys duke it out here until they get worn out…

...and bio / AB / jeff / et al please don’t say ”... but he started it…”

Lagpressure,
Talking about feeling, I had the pleasure today to work with one of the best female tour players today, She was the ladies Australain Junior Amateur Champion and has been on a down hill slide her golf swing was letting her down, Her plane was out to in cross the incline plane, this was easy fixed by pressure point three, She had no feeling of where here hands were and never been taught this before. Within ten swings here plane changed and swing dynamics was poetry in motion once she had a feeling pressure point three. Now all we have to do is hone this skill into the computer, Amazing by using a correct feeling how dramatic one’s dynamics can change. From something so simple as a feeling and using the right pressure point and knowing at all times where your hands are. It’s scary to think a player of her caliber never had this awarness. Now my question is how good can she become once she hones these simple skills into her computer.

I think that Loren’s response to Slinger is correct – a swinger can use angled hinging at will by becoming a manipulated swinger, even though horizontal hinging is the natural progression of a swinger’s downswing action. I believe that Hogan used angled hinging controllably to produce his power fade.

The idea that Hogan was a hitter in his later career because he used angled hinging is a theory without evidentiary support. Hogan has a classic swinger’s action, and he used horizontal hinging and angled hinging selectively to shape his shots. Whether Hogan was a switter is a possibility, because he talked about actively using his right side after the hands get down to waist level (delivery position). That would mean that Hogan had a four-barrel swing action in the following order – 4,1,2,3.

AB wrote-: “As #1 is utilised, #4 will be partially utilised also. How can it not as you drop the club ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìinto the slot”? From the release point #2 & #3 get unleashed and continue to be utilised through the ball. Just prior to impact #4 is unleashed again with the pivot, the ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìslinging feeling” down and out?”

This is complete nonsense. The slinging “down and out” action in a swinger like Hogan is simply the end-result of the full release of power accumulators 4,2,3 in that order. Homer Kelley specifically stated that a swinger should not activate the power accumulators out-of-order. They have to be released in the order 4,2,3 – although they can overlap or replace each other. The idea that one can re-activate power accumulator #4 at impact, or near impact, is crazy. Power accumulator is already fully released at impact (when the left arm- left shoulder angle is close to 90 degrees). During the followthrough, one doesn’t increase this angle. Look at the photos of Hogan that I posted previously – note that his left arm-left shoulder angle doesn’t change post-impact, and he is therefore not releasing the power accumulator #4 angle more post-impact.

Here is another sequence of Hogan’s swing

Hogan followthrough

Note that the left arm-left shoulder angle doesn’t change from impact to the finish, and a towel placed in his left armpit could remain in place throughout the followthrough-finish, thus demonstrating that there is no further release of power accumulator #4 post-impact. The reason why the angle doesn’t change is due to Hogan’s excellent pivot action through impact/followthrough. He continues to turn his torso actively around to the left/tush line and that keeps his arms always in front of the rotating body. Lagpressure incorrectly implies that if one fires the pelvic pivot action through impact so as to continue to pivot the torso leftwards post-impact, that this represents a re-activation of power accumulator #4. That is not true. In fact, the opposite is true – a failure to pivot the torso around to the left and around towards the tush line would cause the left arm to separate from the chest wall thereby increasing the left arm-shoulder angle, thereby causing a further release of the power accumulator #4 angle. However, that widening angle would not increase swing power because it occurs long after the ball is gone, and it would have the major disadvantage that one would not be able to trace the straight plane line post-impact if the left arm left the chest wall in an uncontrolled down-the-line direction.

Jeff.

AB – you wrote-: “You live your life through what you see other golfers doing and try to relate it back to theory. If you actually went out and bothered to put it into practice, you would see what a fool you truly are being!”

You have made this unsupported allegation “that I don’t test any theory by practice” an endless number of times in the past. I have already told you that I go out 2-3x per week for 3-4 hour practice sessions where I try out an endless number of swing theories – from Hardy’s OPS/2PS, to Peter Croker’s arm swing, to HK’s swinger versus hitter action. I definitely cannot master these swing actions because I am not a gifted athlete, but it is rank stupidity to claim that I never try out different swing theories in practice. Only a fool would make that type of factually-unsupported allegation about another forum member!

Jeff.

Jeff,

Remember that you can use a big “sit down” position to initiate the change in direction, the legs are part of #4…

This “sit down” allows the gradual delivery of the power package to parallel #3…. soon after the left leg FIRES and #4 is put into full throttle..

It is not much different than driving a car, you can punch the gas pedal in first gear, then you hit the clutch to move into second, you could do this with a delay action before you pop the clutch and move into second gear…

This sitting action is like pushing down on the clutch pedal..

The engine of a car starts the car moving from still… then it is disengaged, for a brief time, then re engaged …. for a second big move… much like the left leg and hip firing at impact..

Use the “sit down” action as your swing clutch…

I think that Loren's response to Slinger is correct ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú a swinger can use angled hinging at will by becoming a manipulated swinger, even though horizontal hinging is the natural progression of a swinger's downswing action. I believe that Hogan used angled hinging controllably to produce his power fade.

The idea that Hogan was a hitter in his later career because he used angled hinging is a theory without evidentiary support. Hogan has a classic swinger's action, and he used horizontal hinging and angled hinging selectively to shape his shots. Whether Hogan was a switter is a possibility, because he talked about actively using his right side

Jeffmann where is your evidence that hogan was a hands manipulated swinger since there are plenty of tgm guys out there who would disagree with you

Jeff:

As always you are not worth responding to (I can’t help myself, bad habits!):

1: My reference to “ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìAs #1 is utilised, #4 will be partially utilised also. How can it not as you drop the club ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìinto the slot”? From the release point #2 & #3 get unleashed and continue to be utilised through the ball. Just prior to impact #4 is unleashed again with the pivot, the ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìslinging feeling” down and out?”

Was a question to lag pressure! It had no reference to Hogan nor to swinging! I am a Hitter. I may have it all completely wrong but please get my context right! And it is only a question I want answered by someone with physical proficiency!

2. As far as you practically applying the theory? I don’t really care to be quite honest. But when you question (well you don’t ever question, you accuse as being wrong!) someone of the caliber of Lag Pressure due to your own inept physical cabilities, it pisses those of us who do understand what he is saying off. You might not want to learn the “feel” that Lag Pressure possesses and is discussing with regards to mechanics, but I sure as hell do! To those of us that do have physical ability he is helping us to improve immensely!

LP:

That car analogy is brilliant!

Aussie Bomber…
Good luck to you if you can bomb it. You have gone from wanting to smack the shit out of the ball and then get all technical about the swing? A tip or an update for you. Many boys go long…I have a nice car.

Swedeas:

Trust me I still want and still will smack the shit out of it.

I had the opportunity to work with a K-Vest and Bio who is an expert on Golf Biomechanics. I am not even close to utilising my potential for distance. I would say currently I am operating at 50-60% of capacity. I decided to study TGM and get technical to improve my mechanics so that my power delivery is maximised.

I will never settle for being average when I have the potential to be extraordinary.

Yeah I can swing it at 140mph and hit it 350 metres but my goal is to see how good I can truly be! Qualifying for the Worlds and getting the shit kicked out of me in the first round is not good enough! So if I must take a step back in order to take a giant leap forward that is what I am going to do!

With your last reference “Many boys go long…I have a nice car”

What are you on about?

AB – I have never written anything implying that you shouldn’t learn from Lagpressure.

As I have written many times, you can ignore my posts and you can freely read Lagpressure’s and Biomechanic’s posts. However, you don’t have the “right” to request censorship of my posts because you don’t like their contents.

Jeff.

Jeff:

When did I ever personally request censorship of you Jeff? Please don’t accuse me of things I haven’t done. I asked ISG admin if a censorship option was coming to save this bullshit. And this would only ever censor someone from an individual’s view not from the site. You act like I am the only one who is critical of you!

I don’t want you censored, I am the biggest believer in freedom of speech! I just want you to get on the same page as the rest of us. Afterall isn’t that why we are here? To learn? Rather then accussing people of being wrong and acting as though you are the only one who understands HK, how about asking questions, offering advice in a nice way, try to be helpful?

It is not what you say Jeff, it is the manner in which you say it that gets people off side. I have no doubt we could all learn a bucket load off you as you are without doubt extremely intelligent. Be more personable, be more approachable, you will be perceived in a different light!

I am excited about getting hold of the TGM book – I went to the TGM site to purchase it but the postage cost is twice that of the book and more – went to Amazon.com where I buy lots of books from and they are nearly twice the price for the book that the TGM site offers. Did I read somewhere that someone in Australia has a supply for sale? I think Edition 7 is the latest. I would appreciate a heads up from anyone – thanks!
my email: firie77 at y7mail dot com

On another note – my partner has been following this thread and AB’s since they started and we enjoy immensely most of the content and especially what Lagpressure (John, I think) has to say, certainly given and giving us food for thought. She made a statement last night that some of you are carrying on worse than a bunch of women at a bra sale! This morning, when she bought me my cup of tea and whispered in my ear, time to wake up, she said, the girls are still bickering!! Get over it blokes (and girls) otherwise the main contributor may decide to can the show and then we’ll all miss out!

Hey Ditty,

Yeah Guru, will be able to get you a copy, that is how I got mine. He is taking a well earned break this week so be sure to ask him when he is back around!

As far as the rest of your comments, fair enough I will bite my tongue and not comment further. I hope the others follow suit.

Swedeas:

Trust me I still want and still will smack the shit out of it.

I had the opportunity to work with a K-Vest and Bio who is an expert on Golf Biomechanics. I am not even close to utilising my potential for distance. I would say currently I am operating at 50-60% of capacity. I decided to study TGM and get technical to improve my mechanics so that my power delivery is maximised.

I will never settle for being average when I have the potential to be extraordinary.

Yeah I can swing it at 140mph and hit it 350 metres but my goal is to see how good I can truly be! Qualifying for the Worlds and getting the shit kicked out of me in the first round is not good enough! So if I must take a step back in order to take a giant leap forward that is what I am going to do!

With your last reference ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìMany boys go long…I have a nice car”

What are you on about?

AB i think Swed is trying to state he got a nice motor and boom long ball

Hey Ditty,

Yeah Guru, will be able to get you a copy, that is how I got mine. He is taking a well earned break this week so be sure to ask him when he is back around!

As far as the rest of your comments, fair enough I will bite my tongue and not comment further. I hope the others follow suit.

Thanks mate – I thought it was Guru – how do i contact him? can you email me please?

Hey slinger,

Thanks for the translation! ;) I see where he is coming from now…

Ditty:

Check your email

On another note ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú my partner has been following this thread and AB's since they started and we enjoy immensely most of the content and especially what Lagpressure (John, I think) has to say, certainly given and giving us food for thought. She made a statement last night that some of you are carrying on worse than a bunch of women at a bra sale! This morning, when she bought me my cup of tea and whispered in my ear, time to wake up, she said, the girls are still bickering!! Get over it blokes (and girls) otherwise the main contributor may decide to can the show and then we'll all miss out!

Your made me laugh and my woman has been saying the same thing …... its very entertaining though

Hi guys
Long time reader, very new poster.
I tried about 12 years ago to read TGM, but it seemed too technical for “such a simple game!”. Haha O foolish child I look back and think.
I have been reading this thread after I tried a few months ago to become a more consistent player (gone from 4 to 7hcp).
I have noted after the fact that I have been trying and succeeding to become predominantly a hitter. This is described by you guys as the 120 degree right arm hit etc.
My distance and accuracy has improved (avg 270m drives and 10-11 FIR).
Here’s what I can’t get right : the educated hands that LagP talks about it like trying to learn latin. I’ve heard of it and know it exists, but for the life of me I don’t get it.
I just don’t know what to feel of how to manipulate them to get those elusive “educated hands”. I just try to get my right hand in a powerful position “outside my left hand” at hip height ready to uncock it (release it I guess) through impact.
I welcome your thoughts on achieving “educated hands”.
Like everyone else here, I have been enamoured with Lag’s postings both about his experiences and knowledge.
By the way, I too would be interested in purchasing the TGM book if that’s not too forward of me to ask.
Cheers
Golfur

Golfur66

Welcome to the discussion,
Educated hands has a lot to do with hand eye coordination and of course a sense of awareness as to where the hands are at all times..
When I swing or hit, I never feel like the club is just a big blur down there..

A golfer could have an incredible looking swing, moving through all the positions of a great ball striker, and cold top the ball without educated hands…

Spacial awareness is important..

If you stand up straight, extend your arms out from side to side as if you were on a cross (don’t mean to offend anyone here!) then close your eyes, and now touch the tip of your nose with the tip of your middle finger.. did you miss? or nail it perfect?

One way to educate the hands is to hit a lot of golf balls..
I have seen some very unorthodox golf swings play some very good golf, if not amazing… I’m sure we can all name a few PGA Tour players who seem to defy textbook ideals yet win millions of dollars!

When I was working with Ben Doyle it would not be uncommon for me to hit 2 milk carton crates of balls, 250 per carton .. so 500 balls,
it would take me about 3 hours.. I might do this for 5 days in a row..

Second suggestion, practice with blade irons, so you can get the feedback your hands need.. I know the entire golf world is in love with “Forgiving”, with all good things, there is usually a catch, or a
ying yang opposite effect.. Forgiving helps you today but hurts you tomorrow..

Example, if I hit a tennis racket size driver, I will hit it good, and even on a bad day, I will hit it good.. now with persimmon, if if I have a bad day I will not hit it good, so I will practice to find my precision center again..

A bigger sweetspot is not better, just diluted.. less feedback..

If you just want to have fun playing golf, and you are not really all that serious about getting better, play the easy stuff..

If you are insanely passionate about your technique, you are doing yourself NO favors hitting anything forgiving..

Look at the stuff Hogan hit in the 50’s, he pured it.. hit every fairway and every green on a good day.. the best way to lower your scores is to better your technique! I can prove this.. I will play with a set from the 50’s and absolutely wax a 10 handicapper, with all the latest space age stuff, ...every time, every day of the year for every decade of the century..

If you want to get better, do your swing drills, study G.O.L.F. test your practice sessions by hitting a GREAT set of blade irons, especially long irons, and better yet off tight lies, and even better with lots of wind!..

That’s how you get good..

How good do you want to get?

Thanks LagP
My goal is to get into the clubs pennant team which would mean much more versatility and consistency.
I have used only blades for the last 10 years when I decided to play more than once a month. I got down to 4 as I said and would like to do it again ( or even lower). My problem was I changed my swing keys every week looking for “IT”.
This is the longest I have ever stayed with one technique and it’s working, but I want to do what you say is needed and work the ball at will.
Not inflating my self worth, but other members saying to me “great swing” makes me feel terrible because I’m not scoring well with it.
When I have had lessons in the past, I always ask how my hands are supposed to work; how the release works; cupping; supination; pronation; etc.
They have all said don’t be so technical just because you’re an engineer. I can’t help it. I HAVE to know how the hands work through impact because I continually get lost and come up with new swing thoughts to overcome this fundamental ignorance.

Remember, it is always best to be both the artist, designer, and mechanic..

I can’t imagine playing golf and not having a very good understanding of what is going on..

There are many teachers that will say things like “don’t be so mechanical” or something like that.. often the people saying that don’t really understand the mechanics, so they teach from the “smoke and mirrors” perspective.

I remember a very well known and respected teacher who told me point blank.. “John, if you ever want to make a living teaching golf, there is only one thing you have to do to make people come back..
make sure they are hitting the ball better at the end of the lesson than at the beginning of the lesson..!! and by the way, as they work through a bucket of balls, more times than not, they will be hitting it better at the end of the lesson just from hitting the bucket..”

He was a band aid teacher, and he made a very good living teaching, and everyone loved him, very personal guy, and just would tell them one little thing, and compliment them on how much better they were than last week..

Bottom line is… I actually totally agree with him… that’s why I have never been interested in teaching the general public as a profession.

I might be interested in doing clinics, and maybe teaching an advanced ball striking class.. and I actually do like beginners because they have no bad habits to break.. fresh clay really.

I think I would be very tough and too demanding for most students,
and I would drop them if I didn’t get 110% back from them..
Golf has never been a money thing for me.. I have always been in it for the love of the game, and the art of the motion.

I turned professional only because I believed it would be a better vehicle to improve my skill level as a player.. the money I made on tour just supported that position, sponsors and so forth, and enabled
me more time than if I had to work another job all week..

I would say with confidence that I am about as much of a purist as you’ll find on this earth!

Lag

I think we would all be purists if we didn’t get screwed by doing it our way and misinformation.

Most of our readers are mincing there way into golf, unlike your guys. It’s the Australian way. I can play every thing else gimme that club, how hard can it be. Mongrel game anyway.

Can you give us the first line of attack, Lagpressure style.

90% of our guys are OTT and chicken wingers. ( And want to fix it without work or change ). There might be an easier way ?

Lag

I think we would all be purists if we didn't get screwed by doing it our way and misinformation.

Most of our readers are mincing there way into golf, unlike your guys. It's the Australian way. I can play every thing else gimme that club, how hard can it be. Mongrel game anyway.

Can you give us the first line of attack, Lagpressure style.

90% of our guys are OTT and chicken wingers. ( And want to fix it without work or change ). There might be an easier way ?

True post Dart – we don’t read instruction manuals either…lol

I’d also like to say that a teacher of this game is always learning so this is my theory in point form:-
1. No matter how much one may know about the golf swing, there is always something else to learn.
2. As Lag has said, “Fresh Clay”, the easiest and best students to teach as they have…well…no “real” bad habits.
3. Using Band Aids? For sure! The thing is, certain people just want to score more consistently and at times, have no chance in hell of getting to a lower handicap. You can show a person, this is how you do it but they do not have the skill, time, patience to make use of it. This is when a band aid comes handy. YOU tell them there and then that it is only a band aid.
4. A teacher is a person who “teaches” but also “learns” from each time he/she does it. One learns to approach an individual as that, an individual…

Make sense?

Swedeas,

I have been teaching for 45 years but am learning more year by year and is the only reason I teach.

I can’t wait to see what I am going to learn tomorrow.

Some thing about getting through to hackers I hope.

Hey Dart,

45 years teaching golf? That is a looooong time… I reckon we must have a game sometime in the future. You and me vs Guru and Lag Pressure. It would be a blast I reckon!

Lag,

I have embraced the persimmon and blades for practice. It really is great and there is a much sweeter feeling of joy when you pure a persimmon drive that I don’t have to describe to you!

One question though – how important do you think it is to have your clubs built for you?

The reason I ask is that my fundamental problem at the moment is at address when my right forearm sneaks up over plane. I am working with guru on getting this right but would appreciate your thoughts on the importance of having clubs custom fitted (at 6’1 I think a more upright club might stop this over plane move) and what you concentrate on to keep the right forearm on plane when addressing the ball.

Styles,

I am not one that spends too much time dwelling on address alignments.. starting on a low (hands plane) or elbow plane, or shoulder plane, they are all covered in TGM components..

Also I am not big on backswing path, of course it might be nice to be “on plane” but I have never seen a golfer swing back and forth on the same identical plane, which leads me to another of my personal preferences..

LOOP

I am a big believer in having a loop in all golf shots.. I feel a loop even when I putt..

A loop aids in your rhythm, and gives you the sensation that once you start your stroke, you are on a constant path toward the moment of truth… For me, I like the club flattening slightly on the downswing, so the idea of taking the club a bit outside, then dropping into the slot via a loop is very attractive to me..

Putting, I consider myself an excellent putter, because I understand the importance of feel and again, acceleration. Putting, I am all about swinging. I have some very special applications about the grip, how the hand work, body positioning, and the creation of multiple line possibilities on breaking putts.

If I feel I am not putting as well as I would like, I usually start working on a loop stroke. I use an out to in, aiming a bit left and then pushing the putt onto the line. Some looping action for me is paramount to having good feel. I also allow some wrist movement. I could get into a lot of this and go on for days about putting theory, but all TGM concepts are there..

Now getting back to lie of the club..
The flatter the lie, the straighter you will hit the ball.. I believe I covered this topic earlier in this thread..

Getting your clubs set up for your proper impact alignments is the most important club decision you can make. You educated hands will use the feedback from your clubs to guide your entire motion.

GET THIS RIGHT!!!!

I am 6 feet tall and play irons 1 degree flat. I have a bit more knee bend at address than most, so I can position my torso as upright as possible. As a hitter, the flatter I can rotate, the faster my left shoulder will move away from the ball in actual distance.. this maximizes my #4 and also aids in keeping good balance through out the swing. I like to feel I am turning around the axis of my spine until the 4rth parallel, then I move to an even more upright spine angle to help maximize accumulator #5.

Upright irons make over the top easier, so think about that one..
Try to hit a big OTT pull shot hitting a golf ball off your knees..
nearly impossible..

The flatter you swing, the more OTT movement effect trajectory rather than direction.

I’ll take big trajectory problems over big direction problems any day..

I think if you are swinging, you might be ok with more upright clubs, but with hitting, and the use of radial acceleration, I see no real advantage to upright clubs..

As far as the right forearm position, it really is more important that it be in the right place at the 3rd parallel. The advantage of having it bent at address is that you eliminate some of the folding it would have to do on the way back, but if you use that to help create a sense of rhythm then there would be nothing wrong with that.

When I was designing my swing, I consciously tried to eliminate any and all unesasary movements, but I can also see that some fine players have movements that help them feel certain things that create a strong sense of rhythm, and as TGM says, rhythm is very important!!

Lag,

It that the loop something like Lee Trevino?

Trevino, Hogan, Nicklaus, nice big loops..

and Ben Crenshaw, his putting loop is so big you can see it ..
one of the best..

The feeling of keeping the motion continuous, in other words, once the swing starts, the flow remains constant to the finish.. only with a loop can this happen.

To have to abruptly stop, then re start from a point of stagnation is not typically “healthy” for a true sense of rhythm.

You rhythm is the true glue that hold the whole motion together.

The feeling of keeping the motion continuous, in other words, once the swing starts, the flow remains constant to the finish.. only with a loop can this happen.

To have to abruptly stop, then re start from a point of stagnation is not typically ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìhealthy” for a true sense of rhythm.

You rhythm is the true glue that hold the whole motion together.

Love it LP!!

Keep the foot on the gas ‘till the thing is flying! Unfortunately some amateurs stop the pressure too early, thinking that their job is done, before impact- thus causing clubhead throwaway and steering

It helps for me to think in terms of interrupting my back swing with the start of the down swing.

Conversely, I try not let impact interrupt my intention to swing right through the ball to a full finish.

Back, in and up. Down, out, in and up. Oh my, see that sucker fly!

TGM is a unique approach to the swing in that it covers all the possible movements (components) that ordinary humans can make, that would still be relevant to swinging a golf club.

It is our decision as artists, mechanics or both, to choose which components are practical applications for our own human condition, and the situation at hand (golf shot)

I don’t think it is important to know how to use all the components to there full extent to play great golf, but it is always helpful to have some kind of working understanding of all the variations and how they apply.

There are certainly pros and cons to sweep, snap, and float loading,
as well as angle hinging, horizontal and so forth, hitting, swinging, and on and on…

What works for you is what is most important, whether that be short term, long term, and aligned with your own expectations.

Teachers tend to promote what they see as easy to incorporate for rapid improvement, and good players tend to talk a “my way” approach.

Is golf an easy game or difficult?
I think most people would say it is difficult, but of course this depends entirely on where we subjectively put the “bar”....

I think golf is really easy to break 80 every round. Very difficult to break 70 every round. Tiger might say the same thing if he put the bar at 75 to 65.

Having an aggressive expectation would suggest hard work and improvement. Sometimes getting too comfortable with your expectations can lead to complacency. Be realistic and find your balance.

Lagmeister,

With concern to Golfur66’s question on educated hands…...

How early in the process would you introduce the locations and functions of the 3 Pressure Points on the hands to begin the education of the hands?

Doin’ a marvelous job, dude….thanks

Lag Pressure:

Can you go further into the specifics of an artist, a mechanist (technician) or both?

Is it possible to learn by flight and feel for the artist? Where as the mechanic (technical) would learn via technical advice?

I personally would prefer to do drills and feelings as well as study flight (ball doesn’t lie) rather then been given mechanics. I find it frustrating as I am not mechanically minded and rather feel my way through the swing.

Is this a viable option for improvement or do I need to adopt more of a technician’s mindset to achieve my goals?

A-B,

Not LP but some tech. must come first before it can become artistic.

You must learn to sketch then mix paint before portraiture.

You can’t win a race before you learn what an accelerator and steering wheel is.

Sometimes we get carried away and forget these simple things.

Dart:

Thanks mate, your words always make so much sense. I like the painting anology. Even when you are a skilled painter I guess at times you need to sharpen the pencil to improve the sketching or refine the colours to add new dimensions to your artwork.

A.b,
It’s so good completing a master piece painting, Enjoying the process of the skills learned on your way to you master piece painting.
I still love going back right to the beginning, back to my crayons, work my way up to learning to paint, producing another masterpiece painting, The greatest joy is learning and honing my skills so my new painting is better then my last one.

spike71

The #3 pressure point is the one that really is the key to feel, touch, and finesse. If you can in a sense, meditate on the subtle feeling of #3 at the transition at the top of the backswing, you would like to feel just a slight acceleration pressing the shaft into the meat of your index finger, then holding that feeling all the way down, and even better increasing it’s compression as you approach impact. It really is the gage that sends the signals to the computer for all things acceleration and feel,
which go hand in hand.

When you rake a ball over from your pile on the range, be totally aware of it.. feel it, drag a club around the house on the carpet, feel it..
get focused and in tune with #3…

It’s absolute most important function? PUTTING!!!!!

AB

Years ago in my care free youth, I was driving across the US from coast to coast, and I read a famous book “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” and it impressed upon me the idea that there are those who’s passion is to ride the bike, enjoy all the feel and performance, wind in the hair and all that.. then you have the one who really gets into understanding how it works, is almost more engulfed in the mechanical aspects of the design of the engine, various systems and so forth..

The artist uses the bike as a tool for expression, image, etc, but might have a real bum trip if the bike breaks down on the side of the road.

The mechanic welcomes the challenge of it breaking down, takes pride in getting back on the road as quickly as possible, but to the artist, doesn’t really get the idea of just enjoying the ride, scenery and such.

I quicky applied this ideology to the game of golf, and found myself in a way victim to either of those scenarios… the frustration of hitting the ball poorly and not knowing exactly what was wrong..
Later in my career I suppose I was too caught up in the mechanics, and creation of my swing, and would forget to just go out and play!

One year I was at the finals of PGA Tour qualifying and I was making big changes to my swing even during the event… it had worked through the first two stages, and suddenly I’m at the finals trying to put in the last couple of pieces that I had been implementing …
not so sure that was such a good idea in retrospect! ... but my priorities were really to get these things integrated asap… tour school or not..! lol

It took me several more years before I really understood the concept of “practice vs playing” Now I NEVER practice while playing … EVER.. I am very aware of intent…

This was a huge revelation for me well into my pro career..
When I understood this, I started to win tournaments..

Thanks for the explanation Lag

I have the TGM book and have nearly finished reading it – I will then use it as a text and study guide along with my collection of training aids such as dowels and lights etc..

But what I wanted to say is wow!!! I have followed this thread and another as well as read all I can on Lynn’s site, this is exciting stuff!!

I just had to go out to the range at Northlakes today and try out just a few of the things that are and have been mentioned in the forums.

Head behind the ball – back of left hand = clubface – 4 oclock on the ball and especially the pressure points and mainly the right hand index finger’s pad at the first joint – and finally the flat left wrist. I hit 40 balls as sweet as….. just using the above! I just can’t imagine how good it’s going to get when I finish the TGM book!

On another note – Lag, you mentioned in a previous post talking of putting – quote, I have some very special applications about the grip, how the hand work, body positioning, and the creation of multiple line possibilities on breaking putts.

I am hoping you can expand a little on your thoughts/applications about the above and especially the putting grip?

Hey Ditty, there is a lifetimes worth of stuff in there. It is truly scary that you will pick it up 20 years from now and go “Doh, I missed that bit but now see how it fits in”. Listening to Lag’ in this thread shows how he used, uses and still has room for thought for his future use of the info.

The book puts more people off by the way it is written than what it contains. Sort of our job kicking on to help explain what it is all about:)

Drag Loading

I’ve read drag loading explained as a longitudinal pull as though one is attempting to stretch the club lengthwise. I was experimenting indoors with pulling the club at start down in a direction where the the butt of the club was pointing at at the top of my swing, which is almost in the opposite direction of where the target is. I assumed I would cast, but I actually feel more pressure and a stronger swing. Downswing feels wider, and the follow through feels less choppy.

I have unsuccessfully tried (for many years) to start my swing in a straight line motion of my hands from the top to impact, or top to aiming point or top to the ball, etc. but I don’t feel the lag pressures and the heaviness of dragging a mop as one is supposed to. Choppy and flippy. Aim further forward and still the same.

In fact, I am wondering if aiming in front of the ball actually causes an early release and my club head to slow down because my hands would have to decelerate to let the club head to catch up. Yesterday on the range, after mishitting driver shots for the third year in a row, I altered my sight and looked at a spot one inch directly behind the ball and left my focus there without thinking about the swing and hit solid shots.

In an older thread, Dart had mentioned experimenting with extreme aiming points, such as 5 meters behind the ball for long clubs, which would be consistent with what I had been experimenting with, a longitudinal pull.

I found Dart’s video on aiming point and hand speed, available from crokergolf, very interesting and eye-opening. My hand speed is actually fast, not slow.

Worth trying my understanding of drag loading on the range this Memorial Day Monday?

Sounds like you found out what a Sweep release is all about, ala Tom Watson like.

Jazz, do you have a link to Dart’s video?

http://www.crokergolf.com/T...

I assume Paul is Dart.
Well worth the small cost

http://www.crokergolf.com/T…

I assume Paul is Dart.
Well worth the small cost

Jazz – thanks for the link – there’s some good training vids there! Paul is an “easy to listen to” teacher!

Speaking about putting for a moment,

I can’t express how important the applications of TGM are in the smallest of strokes.. putting.

There is a lot of talk about power, dynamics, and how to use the golfing machine to maximize power accumulators to create the amazing wallop into ball, hitting or swinging.

In my studies of TGM with both Ben Doyle, Greg Mc Hatton, and other TGM players, very rarely did putting come up in conversation about G.O.L.F.

I have to admit, that in my quest to REALLY learn how to putt, the best lesson I ever received was from a well known Canadian senior teacher who was recommended to me by both Moe Norman and Bob Panasik.
His name …Alvie Thompson. Alvie told me more about putting in 30 minutes than I had learned in 20 years on my own. My one lesson with him took place in a coffee shop at Mc Cleary Golf Club in Vancouver.
Everything I had learned and worked on my whole life just went right out the window. What he said made more sense than anything I had ever learned from anyone or found out myself about putting.

Amazingly, nothing was more “golfing machine” than what he said.

My old way was stiff wrists, straight back, straight through, practicing
through a Pelz track with rails, neutral grip position.

His way was extreme weak left hand, extreme strong right hand,
4 opposing pressure points in both hands. Free loose wrists, firm but flexible (sound familiar?) steep downward angle of approach (divot) and a plane shift (loop). He was big on different stance and weight distribution alignments depending upon left to right, right to left, uphill, downhill. Reverse loft of the putter face was big on his ideals as well. It took me about 6 weeks to incorporate these ideas into my putting stroke and this soon manifested into having a run of shooting 37 under par in a three week period of competitive golf. I have never putted “bad” for any extended period since.

Everything Alvie taught me was easily transposed into golf machine ideology. It was the single best lesson I have ever had.

Lag: How true with putting! It amazes me how if you offer a putting clinic, to say 10 people, that half will find its time for a coffee, then half of the half will be there to be polite and the others who pay attention get the days biggest light bulbs going off.

Lag,

It sounds like a Runyan grip with a Croker wrist action.

Dart:

You are a joy to listen to! I agree small price to pay for such great information!! Throughly recommend to anyone at any level!!

So simple!!

the palms would be both facing away from the body, not facing one another.. Alvie really believed the hands just work better in this position for putting, I might suppose that because of the tendency for deceleration in putting, clubhead throwaway, he believed that with the hands in this position it helps to solidify the left side, and if you keep the putterhead moving down and out, and even into the ground, it all really works well, and is in complete harmony with G.O.L.F.

Gary Player used to take divots while putting quite often. Great putter and a wonderful application of golf machine ideals.

Lag – thanks for the info on putting; I understand from your post that putting is a smaller version of the drive? I don’t get the hands turned out though.

breaking down the left wrist (hinge) during the putting stroke is fatal..
by turning the hands out, the left wrist can’t break down, it kind of locks the hands together in a way that the bones in the wrists just won’t allow it… this is the idea of the long putters, belly putters.. takes the breaking of the left wrist out of the equation.. with this grip and hand position, you really don’t have to resort to a belly or long putter..
Cory Pavin comes to mind as someone who used this grip in his heyday.

You certainly don’t need to use all four accumulators in putting..
extreme precision is the name of this part of the game..

Dart:

You are a joy to listen to! I agree small price to pay for such great information!! Throughly recommend to anyone at any level!!

So simple!!

A-B,

Thank you. It is nice to be helpful or at least amusing.

steep downward angle of approach (divot)

I had thought that this would impart backspin to the ball, which then causes the ball to skid when it has to convert to forward spin.

Dart:

You are a joy to listen to! I agree small price to pay for such great information!! Throughly recommend to anyone at any level!!

So simple!!

A-B,

Thank you. It is nice to be helpful or at least amusing.

Dart:

Love that line!

That lesson has shown me a glaring fault in my swing, only taken me 10 years to realise it!! hahaha… Where were you when I was 21????

Vertical hinge must release fully! Derrr… I have never ever achieved it, I did today! I didn’t realise what I had been doing or rather not doing! Nor did I realise how much power the vertical hinge has in comparison to the horizontal hinge! I have never taken divots in my entire career and always thought my angle of approach that was faulty. Mmmm bacon strips taste good!

There is a hinging sequence that must be obeyed – well at least a personal sequence that I must obey. Order of motion is a mirror image from backswing to downswing. Pity I only found it warming down from my training session (hitting half shots), am dying to hit my next full session tomorrow to apply it to my driver.

A.B,
You have ten years of not recieving the right information, And only three weeks on practicing to apply the right information.
Well done, your working it out, I’ve been waiting to here the v word to be mentioned, music to my ears, keep up the great work your very close to everything clicking together

Dart:

You are a joy to listen to! I agree small price to pay for such great information!! Throughly recommend to anyone at any level!!

So simple!!

A-B,

Thank you. It is nice to be helpful or at least amusing.

Dart:

Love that line!

That lesson has shown me a glaring fault in my swing, only taken me 10 years to realise it!! hahaha… Where were you when I was 21????

Vertical hinge must release fully! Derrr… I have never ever achieved it, I did today! I didn't realise what I had been doing or rather not doing! Nor did I realise how much power the vertical hinge has in comparison to the horizontal hinge! I have never taken divots in my entire career and always thought my angle of approach that was faulty. Mmmm bacon strips taste good!

There is a hinging sequence that must be obeyed ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú well at least a personal sequence that I must obey. Order of motion is a mirror image from backswing to downswing. Pity I only found it warming down from my training session (hitting half shots), am dying to hit my next full session tomorrow to apply it to my driver.

AB after reading your posts i decided to buy online the videos and paid using cc but all i got was a message back confirmation receipt number etc but nothing about where and how to download the videos etc. How does it work? appreciate the reply back

Slinger:

When you complete payment in paypal it will take you to the receipt confirmation screen. On this screen there will be a toolbar or link saying go back to peter croker golf. When you click this it will take you to a screen that has a link on it “Paul Hart’s Preferred Golfing Machine Swing Model” click it and it will download onto media player. Save as a play list in video library so you can watch it again when you wish.

Hope that helps!

A.B,
You have ten years of not recieving the right information, And only three weeks on practicing to apply the right information.
Well done, your working it out, I've been waiting to here the v word to be mentioned, music to my ears, keep up the great work your very close to everything clicking together

Thanks mate! It is far from perfect but at least I know what I should be achieveing, funny when V unloads, H automatically rotates through the extensor action we discussed.

I looked at the above pic again last night, fully unloaded baby!! ;-)

Slinger:

When you complete payment in paypal it will take you to the receipt confirmation screen. On this screen there will be a toolbar or link saying go back to peter croker golf. When you click this it will take you to a screen that has a link on it ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìPaul Hart's Preferred Golfing Machine Swing Model” click it and it will download onto media player. Save as a play list in video library so you can watch it again when you wish.

Hope that helps!

Thanks AB i will give it a shot

Lagpressure,

Thank you for the putting story. In the golfing machine book, it is there. Putting, zero pivot (10-12-D) is body control (zone #1). One accumulator (10-11-A) is club control (zone #2). Any hinge action (10-10) is ball control (zone #3). And educated hands (5-0) are exactly as mandatory here as with any other pattern.

Homer did advise swinger to use a reveres loft putter for a precision low point impact. Would you share what is your putter loft?

I have highlighted my book with the wordsˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìPutt”, guess how many are there?

A.B,
You have ten years of not recieving the right information, And only three weeks on practicing to apply the right information.
Well done, your working it out, I've been waiting to here the v word to be mentioned, music to my ears, keep up the great work your very close to everything clicking together

Thanks mate! It is far from perfect but at least I know what I should be achieveing, funny when V unloads, H automatically rotates through the extensor action we discussed.

I looked at the above pic again last night, fully unloaded baby!! ;-)

Is that you in your Avatar AB?

lol I wish Mr C I wish!! It’s Jason “Golfzilla” Zuback, 5 time world long drive champ and my freaking idol. The man is 5’8 if he is lucky and absolutely punishes the ball!!

He is a pharmacist by trade! (No Joke!) I have a feeling someone is filling his own scripts!!

Im working on it though Mr C (ala natural of course)

I got less veins and a better head!! hahaha… Sorry Jason…

Slinger:

When you complete payment in paypal it will take you to the receipt confirmation screen. On this screen there will be a toolbar or link saying go back to peter croker golf. When you click this it will take you to a screen that has a link on it ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìPaul Hart's Preferred Golfing Machine Swing Model” click it and it will download onto media player. Save as a play list in video library so you can watch it again when you wish.

Hope that helps!

AB unfortunately no joy for me…looks like Mr Croker has taken my $25 and run…can’t even email the man on that email provided from paypal and no contact phone number at all…all in all very good customer service which leads one to think is this man a shonk…very disappointing

lol I wish Mr C I wish!! It's Jason ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìGolfzilla” Zuback, 5 time world long drive champ and my freaking idol. The man is 5'8 if he is lucky and absolutely punishes the ball!!

He is a pharmacist by trade! (No Joke!) I have a feeling someone is filling his own scripts!!

Im working on it though Mr C (ala natural of course)

I got less veins and a better head!! hahaha… Sorry Jason…

Lol definitely filling his own scripts! He is huuge! He’s also about my height which is very encouraging :-P

KOC,

My putter is zero loft, so with a slight drag of the clubhead through impact, I do de-loft the putterhead to some degree, and I line up slightly left of target, incorporate a very subtle loop and push the ball slightly to the right as I drag the clubhead slightly toward the inside quadrant of the ball. My practice strokes are always into the ground
braising the ground.

Slinger:

That’s pretty poor isn’t it! Just went through the website here is the contact info.

info@crokergolf.com

I would be emailing and discussing it with them.

Don’t take no for an answer! ;-)

Slinger:

That's pretty poor isn't it! Just went through the website here is the contact info.

info@crokergolf.com">info@crokergolf.com

I would be emailing and discussing it with them.

Don't take no for an answer! ;-)

and a number to call if verbal abuse is in order ;-) 0415 292 549

Pivot Train:

Can anyone confirm whether the pivot is supposed to stop at any point during the downswing? I recall there is either supposed to be a slowdown or pause of the pivot to allow the left arm to be thrown off the left chest and then the momentum of the arms and club pulls the body the rest of the way to finish instead of the body rotating continuously. Maybe I misremembered it.

There is a Martin Hall clip on youtube where he talks about the downswing as a relay race, from ground up, suggesting that the earlier parts of the downswing, feet and legs after they do their part, are done, then the shoulders are done then the arms do the rest.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=related
It’s about 5 minutes into the clip.

How does pivot components being ‘done’ differ from quitting?

Sure Crockes will “fixer up.”

Jazz: Bio and Jeff will have the diagrams for you last question.

Jazz,

I don’t think the pivot is ever going to actually stop, the accumulators do overlap one another, but there is certainly a sequence to their release of potential energy.

I would say that the pivot might very well slow down, it certainly does for me. I think of it like shifting gears in a car.. the rpms drop but don’t go to zero..

The initial change in direction might demonstrate a quick motion of the pivot, but then the pivot would slow down to deliver the power package assembly down to the 3rd parallel, then the pivot would pick up the pace though the hitting area.. releasing 2 and 3..if you are swinging..

A hitter would usually straighten the right arm out before 2 and 3 on the downswing.. this works well if you are rotating the shoulders flat,
keeping the shaft on plane… feeling as if you are dropping your hands into your right hip pocket on the downswing as the shoulders rotate more at right angles to the spine… flat..

For swingers you would be best to keep the right arm bent as long as possible, with the shoulders moving more steep in their motion with the clubhead feeling “down and out…. inside quadrant, full roll duel horizontal release would give the most power.

Slinger:

That's pretty poor isn't it! Just went through the website here is the contact info.

info@crokergolf.com">info@crokergolf.com

I would be emailing and discussing it with them.

Don't take no for an answer! ;-)

All sorted thanks AB…that being said i thought Paul Hart was terrific and personable and certainly made tgm not so complicated…on the other Croker was quite deadpan but obviously knew his stuff….thanks again guys

Slinger,

Thank you, thank you.

I am sure Crok thanks you too.

Always glad to be of service to a willing mind.

Slinger,

Thank you, thank you.

I am sure Crok thanks you too.

Always glad to be of service to a willing mind.

Dart the auto flip release you showed from being a little under the plane…which hand controls the flip?

KOC,

My putter is zero loft, so with a slight drag of the clubhead through impact, I do de-loft the putterhead to some degree, and I line up slightly left of target, incorporate a very subtle loop and push the ball slightly to the right as I drag the clubhead slightly toward the inside quadrant of the ball. My practice strokes are always into the ground
braising the ground.

Out of curiosity Lag, when you say you aim left and push right are you making the basic stroke a la TGM? Are you trying to ‘draw’ the putt into the hole like say Bobby Locke or are you trying to ‘cut’ them in like Trevino?

The basic stroke a la TGM?

Yes,

No cutting, or hooking the ball into the hole..
By pushing the ball slightly it helps keep the left wrist
flat and leading..

oh, and of course that motion would naturally de loft the putterhead, which is desirable.

When people miss a putt and it goes three feet past, and they reach over the hole and back hand it in from there, they rarely miss…
Think about it, steep angle, and a ton of de lofting going on.. something to think about..!

Slinger,

Thank you, thank you.

I am sure Crok thanks you too.

Always glad to be of service to a willing mind.

Dart the auto flip release you showed from being a little under the plane…which hand controls the flip?

Slinger,

Either hand even one handed. You can use it on pitch shots even slow ones. Just notice how you have to keep pulling. The is no way you can throw it away if you do.

Slinger,

Thank you, thank you.

I am sure Crok thanks you too.

Always glad to be of service to a willing mind.

Dart the auto flip release you showed from being a little under the plane…which hand controls the flip?

Slinger,

Either hand even one handed. You can use it on pitch shots even slow ones. Just notice how you have to keep pulling. The is no way you can throw it away if you do.

thanks Dart i get it…one more question about the shoulder turn throw is the right shoulder being “pulled” downplane while the pressure increases against pp4 or can you also throw or
“thrust” the right shoulder down pane after pull and increase of pressure against pp4?

You can thrust the right shoulder down plane but it is not ‘connected’ to #4 as such. You can delay the release of #4 but think of it as being motioned forward by the increased thrust.

You can thrust the right shoulder down plane but it is not ˆ¢’ǨÀúconnected' to #4 as such. You can delay the release of #4 but think of it as being motioned forward by the increased thrust.

Thanks Guru…shoulder turn throw equals active engagement of the right shoulder

oh, and of course that motion would naturally de loft the putterhead, which is desirable.

When people miss a putt and it goes three feet past, and they reach over the hole and back hand it in from there, they rarely miss…
Think about it, steep angle, and a ton of de lofting going on.. something to think about..!

I like it!

Imagine a 10 foot long putter you could drag everything in with lol!

I hope this forum’s posts has been helpful to many,
it certainly has brought some thoughts from my past back to the present.. and it is fun to get out and play some golf again..

I’ll check back from time to time here if anyone has anything G.O.L.F.
related they would like to discuss..

Thanks for your involvement Lag Pressure, you have certainly been a breath of fresh air and provided some amazing advice/insights into the golf swing. I hope it continues, I for one am a big fan of reading (and trying) what you write.

lagpressure:

Path of hands and right elbow

In case you are still here, I have a question about the path of the hands that is also directly related to what guru said in the recent OTT thread when he said the feeling one has is that the right hand continuously goes out to right. http://forums.iseekgolf.com...

In an earlier post on this thread you stated:
“This is one of O Grady's big points, straighten the right arm out quickly on the downswing as the torso rotates, as if you were dropping your hands into your right hip pocket, this keeps the hand on plane so you don't come OTT … it is a very strange feeling, but once mastered, very powerful..”
Is that hip pocket feel also for swingers and how does the right elbow figure in all of this. I ask about the right elbow because it always gets in the way. For a driver, no problem because I have plenty of room underneath with my over-reaching, upright setup. Not the same with irons.

Thanks for all your enlightening contributions.

Lagpressure,
Thanks for the great education, we enjoyed you time with us and sharing your wonderful knowledge thankyou

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

Thanks Lag.

Don’t become a stranger now – we will miss your “been there, done that” insights.

I think Burner misses him already:)

Hahaha… or has developed a stutter ;-)

Lagressure
Really enjoyed your insights and seems like Burner wants an encore like the rest of us…thanks

Do not be a stranger there Lag’p. It is wonderful to have a ‘user’ at the highest US level to be a part of the down under education area.

hear, hear!!!

Please come back regularly LP!

Guru, A_B, Slinger and all,

“Something has gone awry. Please check back later” was the legend on the screen last night.

Seems like every time I checked back my entreatys to Lag were being made.

Hope he was taking note, taking note, taking note, taking note – sod this stutter!!!!!!!!

Jazz,

The right arm and elbow have different roles for swingers and hitters..

Remember, Mac O’Grady is a hitter all the way, so his right arm straightens quickly on the downswing to the 3rd parallel. He rotates
his shoulders very flat, and our swings (Mac and mine) would have a lot more similarities than differences. I say this because I really believe
that I know what Mac is feeling in the swing. I don’t position my hands as low as Mac does at address… but I know why he does that..

Now with swinging, the right arm is passive all the way down, and the feeling of the right hand moving out to the right forever, seems appropriate in it’s description.

Swinging, you are feeling that you are throwing the club into the ground in an on plane way..everything is dumping into the ball.
When the clubhead hits the ground it kinda bounces off the ground,
and the arms make no attempt to stop this action, therefore the free flexible way is to have the upper arms detach from the body and the wrists make a full roll after impact… this is all a result of the club bouncing off the ground. If there was no ground you would likely feel that your arms were being pulled from their sockets!

Now in Mac’s style of hitting, and myself as well, we do everything we can to stop the club from doing everything I described above!

By pulling the clubhead out of it’s natural straight line descent into the earth, we muscle it around our body in a tight way, keeping the upper arms glued to the body, and rotating flat. But the key to this working is what the right arm does on the downswing. If you were to keep the right arm bent with this kind of motion, you would come OTT and pull everyshot dead left. You HAVE to straighten the right arm on the way down or it’s OB left..

The plane is the same but it feels totally different because as Guru said, you can’t do both!

Now swinging does work, and it is of golf’s highest ideals..
but from my experience of doing both fairly well in my career,
I would say that swinging I might hit it like a (10) somedays, and like a (3) others.. but as a hitter I am like a (6) to an (8) all the time.
I never hit the ball bad… and I say that in comparison to when I hit the ball bad as a swinger.. I could really spray it on an off day, but I never spray it now… never..

As far as the body, as a swinger I would like my body to feel like a yoga instructor, where as a hitter, I really need to feel like an athlete..

One other thing too..

For me, my swinging activities I keep around the greens.. I believe the softness, sensitivity of the hands gives the great touch around the greens, and putting too.. so I might say I swing inside 30 yards… hit everything outside that..

Now that being said, I would say that with swinging… I like the hands and arms to feel heavy and deliberate. With hitting, I like the arms and hands to feel light and tight… so I would say at a high level of the game, this might explain why a lot of great short game players hit the ball poorly in comparison, and a lot of great ball strikers have trouble with touch around the greens.. I think this is a real reality for a lot of players, and this might give a very real insight into why this happens.

The players that figure out how to move from one feel to the other are the ones that really set themselves apart from the others..

I

Wow,
That last comment about transitioning between the two “feels” is a great key.
I always wondered when I was swinging/hitting great why my short game was average, while when I was sinking everything in sight around the greens, my long game was all over the place.
As per usual, you have brought your excellence to the “unwashed masses”.
I do have a question for you Lag regarding the extension of the right arm on the downswing for a hitter.
Should it be extending in front of your shoulders, or lagging behind so that your shoulders are open and feeling like the arm extension is behind you? Does that make sense?
Cheers

Golfur66,

I would say that the arm extension would feel behind..

But it is not a bad idea to have it feel ahead at first, then as the torso starts turning it would feel behind, because of the lagging effect, or should I say, as the body rotates, the arms would feel that they lag behind.. as they compress into the body while the torso is rotating.

The hands need to be in the same relative position “on plane” from the third to fourth parallel, so if your hands are down low, right hip pocket on the downswing, make sure that when the hips have fully cleared, that the hands are now 4 or 5 inches from your belt buckle at the fourth parallel, on the same relative plane as they were on the downswing.
This again is angle hinge stuff, that of hitters..

Now with swingers, you would NOT want to do this, because when the club hits the ground as a swinger, it essentially “bounces” of the ground away from the body , and would appear to be off plane, but the intent is for the club to go down into the earth and stay on plane… (radial vs longitudinal acceleration)

If anyone doesn’t understand the difference here please let me know and don’t be afraid to ask questions, maybe I can learn a better way to explain all this without having to show someone in person.. which I am quite sure I could communicate these concepts much more easily..

L.P,
Welcome back, I would like to hear about the difference between the two

Can you use longitudenal acceleration in the transition and switch to radial acceleration in the impact zone? If it’s possile what would be the best way to radial accelerate i.e focus on whole right arm or right hand or right forearm or unfold the right elbow??
LP//Dart/Guru /BIO or anybody !!

lagpressure:

Very interesting information about the hands. Actually I was working on attempting to get my hands more left after impact as a swinger onto the impact plane, which would shallow out my impact plane and bring my hands closer to my body. Now looks like I am mixing hitting and swinging components .

I’ll have to rethink and revisualize because hands going away from the body after impact appears to me to be offplane, but maybe it really is on plane but on a different and steeper plane? Ack! I can’t at this moment reconcile continued post-impact down and out with being on plane. Ugh!

Can you use longitudenal acceleration in the transition and switch to radial acceleration in the impact zone? If it's possile what would be the best way to radial accelerate i.e focus on whole right arm or right hand or right forearm or unfold the right elbow??
LP//Dart/Guru /BIO or anybody !!

Nope. One reason being how a hitters and swinger final position differ at The Top and how the pressure points in the grip are delivered down plane. Remember a swinger is swinging in a true arc. A hitter is going across line (still an arc but feel much more straight line). If you read Lee Trevino’s books he felt like he was going in a straight line at the ball. All right arm. Its almost impossible to start the move one way and swap to the other without flying off plane.

Can you use longitudenal acceleration in the transition and switch to radial acceleration in the impact zone? If it's possile what would be the best way to radial accelerate i.e focus on whole right arm or right hand or right forearm or unfold the right elbow??
LP//Dart/Guru /BIO or anybody !!

Nope. One reason being how a hitters and swinger final position differ at The Top and how the pressure points in the grip are delivered down plane. Remember a swinger is swinging in a true arc. A hitter is going across line (still an arc but feel much more straight line). If you read Lee Trevino's books he felt like he was going in a straight line at the ball. All right arm. Its almost impossible to start the move one way and swap to the other without flying off plane.

Thanks Guru ..the straight line you mention would be “out to right field” is a typical hitting move …why can’t you radial accelerate using a straight line pointing along the inclined plane base line?

Work out where your shoulder would have to point.

Slinger,

You might be experiencing the difference between centrifugal and centripetal forces in the golf swing…

The first is acceleration of the club away from the center, and the second is acceleration towards the center.

When you start your downswing, the club should tighten and compress towards your body (centripetal), then as the club continues it’s downward descent towards the ball, the club then moves away from the body, expanding (centrifugal).

centrifugal and centripetal force should not be confused with longitudinal and radial acceleration…

The feeling of too much centripetal force can lead to over acceleration for most people… unless you have a world class left hip, and Popeye’s forearms… slow, slow, slow, then go, go, go…..!!!!

World Class post there Lag:)

Slinger,

You might be experiencing the difference between centrifugal and centripetal forces in the golf swing…

The first is acceleration of the club away from the center, and the second is acceleration towards the center.

When you start your downswing, the club should tighten and compress towards your body (centripetal), then as the club continues it's downward descent towards the ball, the club then moves away from the body, expanding (centrifugal).

centrifugal and centripetal force should not be confused with longitudinal and radial acceleration…

The feeling of too much centripetal force can lead to over acceleration for most people… unless you have a world class left hip, and Popeye's forearms… slow, slow, slow, then go, go, go…..!!!!

thanks lp and guru,,,,,not what i do ….i might be a hitter with a swingers pivot anyway im seeing jt soon so he can sort out my muddle

I would suggest slightly steeper shoulders for swinging, flat shoulders for hitting..

I took a look at Bobby Clampett’s swing last night, and it was interesting how he changed from dual horizontal full roll hinging to
angled hinging and hitting, yet he did not change his shoulder rotation at all from the old days… He certainly is giving up some power by not turning flatter through it, and I would suggest he is trying to look like Hogan, with the shoulders a little steep. Clampett is much taller than Hogan, so for him to try to cut his hands left after impact as tight as Hogan makes no sense to me, and it really looks very forced and contrived. I heard his new book is very good, and really focuses on acceleration through impact.. no argument there!

I took some pics of my swing for the first time in many years a few days ago, front and back hitting a 2 iron off my back deck! I have 13 stills in a sequence format, about 1 meg each and the file size is 1800 by 1300 pixels. I could shrink it, but the quality is a bit grainy, so to make it smaller, one would have a hard time seeing what is going on. I don’t have a website to post it to, so if someone has one, that might be a better way to view it, just having a link to it..

I thought it might be helpful to people who had questions on this thread, and might help explain some of the concepts and ideas I have worked with over the years.

Guru – would vimeo allow pics or only vids for what Lag wants?

or this may help

or this picaso link

looking forward to seeing the pics

Flickr or Photobucket were suggested by Admin as very useful and the first link that Ditty showed you will no doubt help.

Look forward to seeing them:)

Great, thanks..
Looks like Picasa gets the swings!

I’ll put some #s on the photos so if anyone has questions it will make communication a bit easier for all of us…

I should have a link up here real soon.

Admin suggested giving Picasa a miss. I do not use it so cannot say why:)

Admin suggested giving Picasa a miss. I do not use it so cannot say why:)

Interesting!!

I found it okay whilst away – but flickr will do the job too as will photobucket

Ok, Flicker it is! Thanks guys!

Here are a few shots of my swing hitting off the back deck of my house a few days ago!
Taking stills off the camera is a bit grainy, but I think you can see most everything.
Make sure to click on the image sizer at the top left of each photo.

Everything is really based on core body rotation, tight with very active hands and fast hips. I am also using double wrist action here to really
utilize accumulator #3. You can get a bit more zip on the ball without having to rotate faster.

I also put up the funny article of Tiger winning at Torrey Pines when he was 15 in Golf World. We both made headlines that week so that was kinda fun!

Looks like a ton of lag … I’ll take 2 to go thanks!

What are your misses? Your right shoulder looks like its going out and around a bit … Hooks?

Welcome hooky

Great stuff LP!

Do you consciously make an effort to hinge early in the back swing? The takeaway looks really steep.

Can’t believe you were ripping a 2 iron off decking!!! lol!

Notice the BRW after impact as well – top banana!

LP
your swing looks awesome
with the amount of lag and hand work
many thanks for sharing that extra piece of history – your win n coinciding with teen tiger’s
your score of -17 that in it of itself is amazing stuff with 2 closing birdie WOW !
not to mention a 1940 off the deck 2i ….PHEW !

Photos B-8 and B-9 are the key to not hooking the ball.
By using double wrist action I have the face much more open than most would at this point in the swing (really maxing out #3 accumulator)... so from there it is just about firing the pivot, and squaring up the face into impact with the rotation of the body and not having to rely on any kind of timing or hand manipulation. The bent right wrist-flat left wrist and impact and beyond is just acceleration at work, nothing else. The more I hit from the body the better… this is kinda the martial arts concept at work.

I prefer to set the hands early for two reasons… once they are set, they don’t have to do much for quite a while… second, I don’t like to put a lot of stress on the shaft at the top of the swing, because if I do that, I have to hold and or increase that stress all the way down to impact…
or else I will lose pressure and feel.. and that is death in a golf swing.
For me, snap (late) loading has a tendency to do that. I am a hitter,
so sweep loading works better and is much more repeatable.

swing

Brilliant !
Many thanks for sharing that with us LP.

Could you tell us what you’re feeling at the start of your downswing ie. what you are doing to make it happen.
- thanks in advance.

Cheers

The key to understanding “Lag” is to know the difference between lag angle (left arm-shaft geometry) and the actual pressure put on the shaft itself. I’ll take the pressure on the shaft any day! Tom Watson didn’t have a lot of angle, but I can assure you he had a ton of pressure on the shaft, much more than I ever could dream of!

I don’t have the angle of Sergio, Hogan, or Peter Senior for one simple reason.. I can’t. Strength and hand speed and rotational speed will tell you what you can and can’t do. For someone with slow hands, or slow rotation, they would be MUCH better to use a sweep (gradual) release
with a lot less angle. Why? so they can put much MORE pressure on the shaft.. Why? so they can have some feel and sustain the lag…
and most importantly, play better golf with what they have physically.

I carry a heavy load to the hitting zone, because I can handle it..
but I can’t carry anymore than this, unless I increase both my strength and both body and forearm rotational speed.

This is all hitter talk of course!

The article with Tiger and I winning the same week is hilarious! He’s only 15! I just found the old mag recently and had no idea back then who Tiger was! Can you imagine? lol

Wilkie,

I really don’t like to feel much of anything at the top.. much different than when I was swinging where I would try to feel everything at the top (transition)

By sweep loading (setting the hands early) I don’t have to feel that at the top.

The main thing for me is to save the hips for later when I really need them.

The key is F-4 to F-6
Notice how much the upper torso has rotated, but the hands have really not traveled very far. Still quiet with the lower body, although it has moved some.. I really like to feel that I’m putting a very light stress on the shaft at the transition, they I just go all out from F-7 to F-10, it feels violent at the bottom!

B-6 to B-8 shows how the right arm has straightened (#1) allowing the shoulders to turn flat but this keeps the shaft on plane and not OTT.

This is why I say that #4 is always busy from the transition to the finish, #1 goes before 2 and 3 clearly.

So much of the golf swing is getting the sequence of events to happen in the right order.

swing

I have no comment other than wow and wow!!!

I wish I had this info 20 years ago!

Lag, thanks for posting the pics, they’ll go into my training album (pre-read).

Are you hitting right off a timber deck? How often do you replace the decking? :-)

Nice to see you back in this stream – right off from day one it’s been a total education for me and the many others I would say – again, thanks mate!

Nice swing lag pressure, like the retain on the downswing F#5, #6 and #7 POWER!!

One of my favourite photos of “lag” comes from a comparison of the great Lynn Blake and Ben Hogan (see below)

As a Long Driver I study a photo like this and aspire to this degree of LAG – you can just see the power there.

Any tips with regards to maximising LAG? or maximising distance off the driver in general?

Love the photo of B#8 PRECISION!! Can anyone say ON PLANE??

A-B, those are some classic photos of Hogan and Lynn…
I don’t know Lynn but have heard of him as an instructor.
Hogan carries a much greater load into the release zone than
anything I could handle.. Hogan’s rotational speed may be unmatched
by any human other than Tiger. Lynn is putting a huge load on there as well, and I hope he has that kind of world class speed to keep the pressure on the shaft all the way down.. It is a lot easier to get into that position than it is to SUSTAIN it!

I would only want to see that kind of flex in the shaft 10 inches from the ball before impact, not that far up in the downswing. I have nice rotational speed, but not like Hogan!

I have seen a lot of people try to copy Hogan’s lag angle, on the downswing and they wonder why they spray the ball all over the course? You have to be able to support that load to impact and beyond….. or your swing will just crumble. The only guy I have seen that brings that massive a package to the impact zone and sustains it, other than Hogan, is Peter Senior.

Creating Lag pressure is not so difficult, but sustaining it is!

There are many good threads on this site but this one created by Lagpressure has to be the GREATEST.

Lags’ swing has plenty of similarities to Hogan especially from the hitting area until the follow through. Good stuff!

There are many good threads on this site but this one created by Lagpressure has to be the GREATEST.

Lags' swing has plenty of similarities to Hogan especially from the hitting area until the follow through. Good stuff!

Hi NickT – would have to agree with you on all counts.

I was fortunate enough to be around when this thread was first posted. Having followed it from the start, each post from Dart, Bio, Guru and Lagpressure got me more and more interested in TGM.

Some of A_B’s comments are worth listening to also as he is into being the best Long Driver around and I’m sure he’ll make it – dedication is the word!!

Now, I’m a student of TGM having received a copy of Homer’s book off Guru – I love it and my game has improved and is still improving…

I hope you continue to be involved and enjoy ISG as many of us do!

ok i will succumb..
please tell… how can i get my hands on this little yellow book

welcome Grant..
I think Guru has some books..
Sure Dart would too..

Someone said you can get one on Amazon as well…

Read it, then read it again… then read it backwards..
then read it one more time!

There are some really well versed TGM folks here to help you with all your questions…

Helping you helps us learn too..

TGM exposes golf’s mysteries..

The Golfing Machine says, “complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”.

AB..

To be a long drive TGM Champ..

To hit it longest I would go for maximum swing radius, snap load,
and float load some on the way down, a lot of extensor action, straighten the right knee on the way back for maximum hip slant,
backswing more upright than flat, draw, don’t fade the ball..
turn your shoulders as much as possible on the backswing, create as much centripetal force on the downswing as possible, swing don’t hit..
so use longitudinal acceleration, let the arms fly off the body after impact with zero resistance, grip the club firm but make sure the wrists are flexible, use a full roll duel horizontal hinge, fully straighten the left leg through impact, finish high with the club
pointing down at the ground, right at the plane line. Feel “tall” at impact.

Basically don’t do much of what I do!

Lag: Did you spend much time watching Lee Trevino? I managed to see him here in Oz playing skins vs Gary Players and Graham Marsh. Hilarious but what a great great hitter he is.

Kenny Perry I saw at the range in Phx a while back too. Lots of fun watching Lift and Crunch at work.

AB..

To be a long drive TGM Champ..

To hit it longest I would go for maximum swing radius, snap load,
and float load some on the way down, a lot of extensor action, straighten the right knee on the way back for maximum hip slant,
backswing more upright than flat, draw, don't fade the ball..
turn your shoulders as much as possible on the backswing, create as much centripetal force on the downswing as possible, swing don't hit..
so use longitudinal acceleration, let the arms fly off the body after impact with zero resistance, grip the club firm but make sure the wrists are flexible, use a full roll duel horizontal hinge, fully straighten the left leg through impact, finish high with the club
pointing down at the ground, right at the plane line. Feel ˆ¢’Ǩ‰ìtall” at impact.

Basically don't do much of what I do!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Thanks heaps Lag Pressure I really value the advice.. a lot to digest but much appreciated. Will upload a video soon, please come take a look? My swing isn’t technically pretty but I guess swinging so hard it can’t be my goal. Thanks once again!

AB

Take it from me A_B, the sooner you upload your swing video, the sooner the world will change for you! I know it did and still is in my case :-)

Guru,

Lee Trevino is incredible.. one thing you can say about all of golf’s greats is, they make it look easy.

Trevino admits to being an obsessive practicer, and when I see his swing, it looks very home spun, and he found what works applying all the laws of physics, then makes it happen. To me it looks like he didn’t stretch a lot, or try to train his body into someone else’s model. It’s not all that different than Moe Norman’s swing. I think both their attitudes towards golf, speed of play, and so forth are identical.
Trevino’s niche was hitting it straight.. and it shows in his swing.
He knew that hitting would be the best way for him to achieve that.
Personally I think he could have hit the ball much farther had he tightened up his rotation through impact, and still had the same precision with accuracy. I really believe that.. I don’t know if Lee had a teacher, I would guess he was mostly self taught. I would guess he would not listen to anyone that couldn’t beat him.. and I would agree with that. I took advice from David Graham when I played with him and Bob Shearer too. Ian Stanley gave me advice
that I didn’t ask for but it was appreciated I can assure you. I never talked to Greg Norman personally but I would listen to him, and Peter Senior of course too. Now if we are talking TGM then we are talking law and a teacher that is speaking law is not speaking opinion…. so I am always open to applying law.
I would guess that Trevino and Moe would be the same. They knew
law because they applied it.. they felt it.. they knew what these concepts of physics actually feel like in the body.

Trevino and Moe approached hitting a golf ball as if it was moving, say like in tennis… you don’t have time to think about anything when you are returning a serve. Get your body to the ball, and have a swing at it. They zero out their mind by not giving it any time to think.
Personally I love that approach, and I would side with that over the meticulous Nicklaus attitude. Not everyone has the ability to concentrate like Jack.. certainly not me!

When I was young, I played slow, and had a million swing thoughts all the time, and would not pull the trigger until I was ready.. unless they had the clock on me… then I would rush and hit bad shots, and be cursing the officials the rest of the round! lol

By spending time with Moe, I realized I didn’t have to be like that to hit the ball well, so I would work on rapid firing balls like Moe would.

I rarely hit balls now, but if I do, this is the only way I do it now.
I will line up 5 balls or more, and just strike them one after another,
no more than two seconds between impacts…

Now I do drills, really exercises.. and play.. I don’t hit balls before I play, I might roll a few balls across the putting green to check the speed. I arrive at the course stretched, and I have already done my drills, so the body is already warmed up.

All my drills are into an impact bag. Always..
I really believe that the ball is just IN THE WAY. So if the swing is there, the ball will do what it does.. precision in, precision out.

Hehe. Lee doesn’t have time for swing thoughts as it would interrupt his tell a story. A great entertainer, persuader personality type.

He gave a lass on the other side of the ropes a huge kiss. “Well dear did you really think I would shake your hand? I mean I bet you got suntan lotion on it?” Crowd all in stitches.

This question of drawing and fading came up on another topic,
and I remembered a concept I hold dearly to my beliefs on ball control..

There are a lot of ways to draw and fade the ball for sure.

I think of this as the “gear effect”

suppose you have two interlocking gears one big one with 100 teeth
and another smaller with 20 teeth. The effort to turn the big gear once
will turn the small one 5 times.

If your body is the big gear, and the ball the small gear, then the efforts of the body will have a greater impact on the ball, being the small gear.

Think of it this way, for most people, they will feel that if the don’t make a near perfect swing, the ball will go way off line. The slightest disturbance in the body, arms or hands, will cause radical changes to the ball flight.

Now for the master golfer, this gear ratio feels the opposite. The body becomes the small gear and the ball the big gear. Now the masterful player feels he must make big changes in the body to create small changes to the shape of the ball. This is what it feels like to be a masterful ball striker.

There are ways to have this experience, I know..
As a swinger in my early days, I always felt my body was the big gear, and the slightest deviations from “pure” would cause the ball to do terrible things. If my swing was 90% pure all day then that would be great, but that would still leave 10% of my swing less than perfect. Assume I make 36 swings in a round, then 3 or 4 swings a round I would not make perfect. This really seems to be about the right proportion in all my humanness. Those 3 or 4 bad swings, for whatever reason would really hit the ball off line. On days I got “lucky” and was able to recover, I would score well, but sometimes those shots would really be dead. So if I recovered 2 out of 4, then I would be assured two bogeys or worse per round, assuming I make no other mistakes, (three putt or whatever) bad bounce, and so forth.

This is really bringing back some memories as to why I switched to being a hitter.

The TGM players (Swingers) of my era, were just so pure most of the time, but had a reputation for hitting the “space ball” on occasion for whatever reason.. (yes I know what these reasons are!)

But at the international pro level, you just can’t do that. You just can’t hit it off the planet every now and then and expect to have much of a career. Back in my day, there were just too many
Stuart Ginn’s or Jerry Anderson’s that will just keep taking your money if you do that.

Power golf is good golf, but dead straight power golf is even better.

This leads me to another question…

When is good enough… good enough?

When is good enough… good enough?

What a great question!

My answer? NEVER!

IMHO if you want to become successful and stay successful, constant striving for improvement and furthering ones abilities is an ever evolving process.

In golfing parlons, why be happy to be your competition by 5 shots (or in my case 5 yards) when you could beat them by 6, 7, 8 etc…?

I believe the wolf climbing the hill is always extremely hungry to get to the top and lead the pack. However it is only a true champion that knows that once he is on top of the hill the work doesn’t cease. The one who was once the hunter now becomes the hunted. The true champions in life keep working, keeps striving, keep improving and never rest.

What comes after winning?

Domination.

Does domination have any limits?

Never!

Tiger Woods, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan all show this true spirit of champions. Being the best is not good enough when domination has no limits! Few have the heart and mental will to chase this, that’s why true champions are rare!

When is good enough…good enough?

Good enough is when you can create with in the goodness of it.

That is where you find….no limitations.

:) Burner…where’s your pipe???

Shite – young men. We have to have a serious talk.

Good enough is 80% classed excellent. Perfect is 100%. You don’t have time to go past excellent and if you do you will screw your life and the life of those around you.

Your swing has 24 components. Mental fundamentals 5. Playing strategies infinitesimal.

You have to look after yourself 1 your loved one and family 2 the guys around you that you care about 3 take part in your community 4 build a house to live in and a financial future 5.

All that takes communication lines, administration facilities, training programmes, testing and qualification, promotion personnel and investigating operations.

Otherwise it becomes overwhelming and you find a way to quit.

I say 80% is heaps good enough.

You will beat everyone who tries for more. I see them throwing clubs and talking to people who are’t there.

Arguably the most dominant player in the history of golf is hitting 58% of fairways at the moment and 71% of greens in a year in which he’s won almost everything he’s entered. He’s won 14 majors but last time I checked he hasn’t shot a 54, let alone a 59.

David Duval shot 59 once, but in 2008 he’s 199th out of 199 for scoring. One cut from eleven events this year, T60 at the St Jude when most of the top players were resting. I wonder if he tried to improve his swing and lost it forever…?

Golf Digest 2007

However unorthodox his swing may have been in his prime, it worked. Nobody on earth drove the ball more consistently than Duval, who faded it on command and could hit it as far as he wanted. As Tiger Woods began to widen the gap between himself and everybody else, though, the man closest to him in the World Ranking seemed to become obsessed with the right-to-left shot. Throw in some back problems and that eroding sense of purpose, and you’ve got perhaps the greatest career meltdown in golf history.

After he won the ‘01 British, Duval let me accompany him back to the house he had rented for the week in northwest England. What struck me about that hour was the utter lack of joy exhibited by anyone in the traveling party, particularly the latest owner of the claret jug.

When is good enough…good enough?

Good enough is when you can create with in the goodness of it.

That is where you find….no limitations.

:) Burner…where's your pipe???

Heh man, you don’t need no pipes or any of dat othur stuff them weirdos is all into.

You got onto a higher human plane all by your own , sweet, lyrical self! :)

:)

Ah Burner, you make my heart pump kool-aid.

Let me clarify my post above, nobody has or will have a perfect swing so trying to achieve perfection in that realm is a frustrating chase that will never be found. There will always be something that can be better.

Good is maximising efficiency and being effective.

However

and it is a big however, IMHO a champion is always someone who seeks to improve and become better, they are never 100% satisfied, the are content but always chasing to better themselves – no matter how good they are.

If you are happy with being where you are, you are going to get caught and passed because there is always someone chasing who is hungry for the top.

Things can always be improved upon, it doesn’t mean you go crazy and totally rebuild, once you have achieved a level of proficiency. Race cars are constantly tuned and retuned for peak performance, so too are top athletes. True champions are never satisfied.

This is why I am of the opinion that good is never good enough! Not when words such as excellent, superior and better are words that can be applied! Perfect will never happen, we are after all human not machines, but improving one’s performance is always possible in any endeavour.

I will personally never stop chasing to make that 1% improvement, but that’s me.

Ain’t no one gonna stop ya bra!!!

My motto…..

Club selection isn’t everything…...it’s the only thing!

spikerockney :)

Being out of golf for quite some time it has been an interesting reflection upon my career, and I appreciate all your interest and support here, this forum has really helped me understand my own path, in a quest for excellence and eventual demise!

After seeing a childhood competitor almost win the The Players Championship recently, it really made me think about, when is enough enough, or when is good enough… enough?

Striving for perfection is a noble cause for sure. A quest I am no stranger to. Leaning TGM at a young age, I was always amazed at how many fine players were leaving so much on the table with their swing dynamics. I was also shocked at times how little they REALLY knew about what they were doing.

One of the problems of playing golf for a living is that you need to be playing most of the time. Making big swing changes can take as much time to unlearn as to learn. Not too many players are going to risk losing their cards to make changes that MIGHT or might not help them out. It’s easy to just go back to doing what has worked in the past.

Speaking from my own quest and journey, I can say for me it was really a double edged sword. I don’t consider myself as a guy who was born with a lot of natural ability. I was not really all that great an athlete in school to begin with. Within a year of working with Ben Doyle my game went from being a slightly better than average junior, to starting to dominate my age group in the local junior association. At age 14 I went from a consistent top five finisher to winning 10 straight events. This was absolutely because of my application of TGM…

When is good, good enough?

I felt that Doyle was never happy with my swing until it looked exactly like Bobby Clampett!! I started to believe that I could swing just like that, I could hit it like that, and score like that. By age 16 I was the third ranked Junior in California, and started being recruited by all the top universities. BYU and Oklahoma State were both TGM “aware” and those were great options. I liked the idea of staying in California and chose Fresno State. Upon arrival there, I quickly got a lesson in humility. There were guys with bad swings (so I thought!) kicking my butt, right on my own team. I had to work harder and harder and kept making swing changes and finally worked my way to the top of the team. After 4 years at university,
I was able to make All American (top twenty in the underclass US)
As good as that was, I was NOT Cory Pavin who won 7 college tournaments
out of 12 starts!

When is good, good enough?

I never believed that just playing more events would make me better. I didn’t believe the ball knew the difference, and if I applied law, that would be all I would need to do. I always went to working on technique. I have to admit that Clampett’s meltdown in the British Open didn’t help my confidence knowing I basically had the same application.

Turing pro was another eye opener. Going from being a top college player I was now way down the list on the pro tour. Guys I have never heard of are shooting 63’s left and right on the Canadian Tour, and I think I finished around 40th on the order of merit my first year out. Pretty disillusioning for a hot shot coming out of college.

The touring life was another world in itself. One of the biggest adjustments was having to play so much golf! Monday travel, Tuesday, practice round, Wednesday Pro Am, then 4 rounds if you make the cut, which didn’t seem to be a problem for me… but the kicker was, if I had some kind of a swing issue, I never really had time to work on it, because I had to post a score…. even in a pro am I felt a responsibility to perform well for the sponsors of the event..
they worked all year to fund the event and make it happen for us so we could be touring pros. I constantly had a video on myself to keep myself in check, and I couldn’t believe how much my swing would change from week to week, if not day to day. As pure as my TGM swinging technique was, it took a lot of maintenance, drills, stretching and so forth. After a couple years of doing this, and getting to play against some of the worlds’ best in Australia, I realized that for me, the swinging technique I was taught, didn’t really travel all that well. Even Clampett had bailed by this time
and switching over to hitting. I didn’t see anyone around using maxed out four barrel swinging protocol. Was there a reason for this? Most of my contemporaries were in fact hitters.

When is good, good enough?

Mac O Grady was winning on the PGA
Tour and his win at the Tournament of Champions renewed some interest in TGM, but this time, as a hitter. He even had Seve taking lessons from him at the time… and most impressive about Mac is that he really didn’t putt very well. To be able to win on the PGA on the merits of ball striking alone was really spectacular.

My aspirations were alway to be at the least, one of the greatest ball strikers of all time! and if the short game would allow, a consistent tour winner. But how would I attain such lofty goals?

When is good, good enough?

I took a gamble, and left Australia early at the end of 88, and decided to take the gamble and convert over to hitter from swinger.
I did it completely on my own without the help of an instructor. I knew TGM and what I had to do, so with the help of a high speed video camera, I went to work. I decided to just suck it up, and suffer what I needed to, and Canada that summer was pretty rough trying to play while making huge swing changes.. I mean people thought I was crazy! I literally changed every single component of my swing.
Grip and everything. I had no expectation other than to get it done.

I found myself putting in the last components of the conversion during PGA Tour qualifying school, and I made it to the finals in Houston all the while making huge swing changes during the first two stages! I couldn’t believe I was at the finals of Q school with a brand new swing! I mean how many tour pros are going through
Q school making major swing changes? I think I was crazy!

When is good, good enough?

In the next couple years, other than an injury i had to deal with,
my ball striking really started to go to a new level. I was having a lot of rounds where I would hit 16 to 18 greens, and I just wasn’t having
bad days anymore. It was a really exciting time. The only problem I was having was that my entire short game was based on swinging,
and my long game was based upon hitting, and there is a real difference in the feel of the club between the two. I’m not sure my muscle training efforts for hitting strength were helping me around the greens. I don’t think I was putting nearly as good, but the ball striking was so much more consistent that it did offset any shortcomings I was having around the greens. I just had so many more birdie and eagle putts that I would have days that putts would fall.

When is good enough enough?

After confirming that my changes were well worth the effort by winning at Windsor in Canada, I knew then that to get to the next level would have a lot to do with just getting stronger. A faster left hip, stronger forearms, and so forth.
I did get stronger, and more distance, and the ball striking remained very excellent, but it started to become more difficult to have the sensitivity in the hands needed to feel the ball around the greens.
My short game was always based upon swinging techniques.
I could “hit” putts, and chips, but I believe it to be an inferior method.
.. and switching back and forth between the two protocols is really a challenge unto itself from the standpoint of FEEL.

When is good, good enough?

Wear and tear on the body, back problems, from an injury, road weary, and after 7 years of touring as a pro, I felt it was time to do other things in life, and gladly I had some attractive very exciting opportunities awaiting a post golf life.

It’s really interesting to look back and see some of the guys that I competed against go on to have wonderful careers on the PGA Tour. There are quit a few that made careers out there I never would have imagined. Certainly no better than I was in anyway
in college or early pro career.

I always thought I had to CHANGE to get better.

It was fun to see Paul Goydos almost win The Players Championship. We grew up together as kids competing in California as 12 year olds. His swing looks exactly the same as it did then. He certainly could have fallen into the “I have to change my swing” trap.

I saw it slowed down from a clip from TPC and it really is not very dynamic, it’s just not a swing that looks like it could go out and beat the worlds best .. but yet it does.. It repeats, and there is something to be said for that. Bump it out there in play, make no big mistakes, and have a hot week with the putter, and here is a guy that just played some wonderful golf with far less than perfect action by TGM standards. I really couldn’t imagine having one ounce of doubt if I had to play against Paul tomorrow in a match, even though he’s going to The Masters and I’m typing in a forum!

I use this as an example with no disrespect for Paul at all, but just pose the question, what is a better way to approach golf in the long term. Take your swing you always used, and just play as much as you can, and just get to know your own limitations, and find that inner belief in yourself, that someday your day will come?
Or take the path of constant change in quest for a better way?

I would guess that my approach toward the game, constantly changing my swing, is why I made it as far as I did. But I know a lot of people would argue I had what I needed as a 19 year old and should of just grooved it, and been patient for my day to come!

It’s really an interesting thing to think about.

Mate
That is just brilliant. If you are half as centred as the way that reads, you’ve been “good enough” for a long time.
Regards
ShortsTuff

John
Thanks for taking the time to type that in the forum – your input here has been valuable to all of us and given me and others, I would suspect, much to ponder.

Well,

To me, it shows that Lag Pressure succumbed to the life as a touring golf professional many years ago and could not cut the mustard as many a golfer has. Do a google and Lag Pressures career earnings are? Unless you have injury that destroys your playing career, well, if you are not good enough, give it up. It is great for a person to give a bio of their life on a forum..well is it? but fair dinkum…

Austin,

He was good enough but selected wrong policy.

If his life had been administered by a professional administrator he would have been successful. But he had to decide what successful meant to him for starters. Then being guided by his statistics change non effective behaviour and leave the good stuff alone.

It is very human to change a winning game and not change a loosing game. Exactly the wrong thing to do.

I think he is saying that.

There is a way to go about a campaign that logically gets the best out of it.

I will set up a post on it soon.

Austin39, the court is over here…you are out of it. How many public forums do you find those who have lined it up and done it giving open heartedly in?

By the way unless you are sponsoring the forum can you drop the signature flogging your p(a)lace.

Which court do we play on..clay or grass? Am I flogging something with my signature? It is a website? Where is my name, am I saying I am there? Why so defensive? Makes me laugh.
Dart had a nice reply, very good actually so perhaps a learning aspect is in order there

Austin,

You and I probably have a difference in opinion as to what is “making it”. It’s quite subjective isn’t it? Is it the journey or the apex?

Golf to me is not a game of subjective, but of very objective scores and numbers. Even the swing is high science, not smoke and mirrors.

If you want to be subjective, how about this…

Tiger Woods is the greatest of all time. Played in a different era than I.
10 years apart. The only comparison I can make to Tiger Woods would be us playing the same tournament on the same course.

We both played in the Sun Bowl All American Classic at El Paso CC.
Tiger won in 1995 with a score of 211
I shot 211 in 1985.

Tiger

John

who’s better?
I would say my score was better having done it with persimmon.

This may sound ridiculous but this is actually fact.
And if I were to have to play against Tiger in an event, this is the piece of software I would plug into my computer… and to be honest,
I would be quite happy to have that, and not everyone has access to such a floppy disc. lol

My retirement from golf was never based upon not making it.
Just a conscious decision to do other things in life. I went 15 years without ever looking back. Played maybe 8 or 10 rounds in that time.

As far as money, I made a lot of money playing golf. The internet was not around then, and a lot of the events I earned money in aren’t going to show up on a google search!

here’s $33,000 in just two events, here
and another here

Back in those days you would make a lot of $3000, $1500 checks… even $500 for a pro am appearance. That all adds up and you would be surprised how much money you can make over the course of time.

The beauty of hindsight is that is gives us a wonderful perspective to look back and analyze through a more OBJECTIVE vantage point.

Could I have continued to play? yes..
Should I have just stuck to one kind of swing? maybe..
Would I have won more events? probably.
Would I have sacrificed other valuable life experiences? definitely.
Was I in love with traveling every week? not really
Did injuries play a role in retirement? to some degree.
Did conflict between swinging inside 30 yards and hitting outside that range? certainly.
Could that have been corrected? Maybe.
Should I be teaching golf? probably
Am I the most TGM book smart pro? no
Am I the most life experienced TGM practitioner of both techniques to ever walk this earth? Possibly
Is that of interest to anyone studying TGM? apparently
Should I write a book? probably
Will I? maybe
Would anyone buy it? probably

Why am I here? still some unanswered questions really.

II am really quite glad I found this forum in the internet age.
To find like minds to share ideas, concepts and so forth. The practical application of law is what TGM is all about. I didn’t even know if TGM was still around. I was really an experimental test subject of early TGM theory… and for my experience to just be lost or kept only to myself in a way would be kind of a shame I suppose.

I am very excited to see that Homer’s work is still holding up over time, and that some of it’s strongest teachers and supporters are in a place I have such fondness for… Australia.

I think from my own experience, it is astounding I made it as far as I did, applying TGM in both swinging and hitting applications and having it hold up against some of the games best players, both at the amateur and international professional levels. As I have said before, I really am not much of an athlete. Now if I had AB’s physique I might really be bitter!

Again I thank you all for your questions that make me question myself, both in reflection and current application.

I’ll be heading out for a round today, and I’m sure I’ll have a lot to think about as I battle the high winds coming off the San Francisco Bay. Today I’ll be playing with a set of 1950’s Tommy Armour Silver Scott blades, a George Bayer DX McGregor Persimmon driver with a
Super Eye O Matic Tony Pena three wood, and a Spalding Cash in Putter. Wish me luck!

Gotta ask Lag, what ball do you use nowdays? Titleist Balatas are a little hard to come by, though I still seem to seee an old tour 100 tour 90 or so in reasonable condition turn up every now and then..

Well,

To me, it shows that Lag Pressure succumbed to the life as a touring golf professional many years ago and could not cut the mustard as many a golfer has. Do a google and Lag Pressures career earnings are? Unless you have injury that destroys your playing career, well, if you are not good enough, give it up. It is great for a person to give a bio of their life on a forum..well is it? but fair dinkum…

www.palaceresorts.com

Austin:

YOU ARE A TOOL…

Probably best not to saying anything and let people think you are an idiot than to confirm it with one stupid uninformed post as you just have for all of us?

What tour do you play on?
How many Australian Opens have you played in?

Lag Pressure is hands down the most successful and most skilled golfer on this site. He does not have to be here and tell us the things he does. The fact that he is here shows he is a man of passion and impeccable character.

We certainly do not need morons like yourself ruining it for the rest of us that actually have a chance to make something of ourselves!

Your avatar says it all mate, you are a twat!

Anytime, any course, anywhere! Put your money where you mouth is! I hope I dont find out who you are, you comments anger me like nobody else’s on this site has. Learn some respect!

You certainly are a walking advertisement for contraception!!

Just to let you know guys – Austin39 is actually Tai and Swedeas and is now banned :)

Just to let you know guys ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú Austin39 is actually Tai and Swedeas and is now banned :)

Use your “Edit My Profile” link in the right hand sidebar to add in your signature

Fair enough !

Just to let you know guys ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú Austin39 is actually Tai and Swedeas and is now banned :)

Use your “Edit My Profile” link in the right hand sidebar to add in your signature

Good Work Admin, we are so fortunate to have someone of the caliber of Lag Pressure, I apologise for my strong words but I will not see someone I respect and admire disrespected like that! (I am sure you expect nothing less from me! lol)

What a tool!! Good ridence!

Thanks again Admin :)

Yeh there’s a few Sidchromes that appear now and then and a good banning is a great way to start a Tuesday :)

Thanks for the tidy up Admin.

OK lets get back to the real thread now:)

Strange how Tai at times could offer good sound advice and then come out with utter crap. Using Pseudo’s to do it with makes it even worse I suppose. Maybe all that ‘Kanka” on the carribean cruises finally hit the mark. Good bye, good luck, good riddance until some form of normality returns.

Lag.. I for one ( along with most others it would appear) appreciate every bit you have placed into this thread. To me it is also a show of your generosity to us, that you take your heart off your sleeve and put into print in this forum.

There are many on here that offer advice and the vast majority are true blue in what they are offering. Many have posted on what they want from golf and how they are trying to achieve same; Styles, Muntz, Mr C to name a few of many. Others like Guru, Dart, Spike, Burner, Alex, Loren and many others all have something credible to say and offer good advice and thoughts to ponder, be it on golf mechanics or equipment. They are not always agreed (rare I know, or maybe it was just Tai that disagreed) with and they accept that (as have you).

Blokes like AB, Bio, Slingfitness ( new but showing the signs) yes and even Jeffman, have joined us to offer incite into areas that they have particular knowledge in, but still they thirst for more through other in this site.

Having said all that, you are the only one (that I am aware of, sorry if I have missed others) that has actually had the balls to place his life and background before us. I know Bio gave us an insight into his own tragic end to his career, but that was in answer to a particular point on his posting ability, and all credit for that as well. You on the other hand, seem to have done it because it is important to you, that we, your reading public are aware of what is behind the man.

I like the MAN….. Keep it comin for all of us.

Davego..

how rude was he??
glad it was you A_B that gave him a roasting.. i had to turn my computer off for fear i would write something i woudl regret
PS my yellow book is one the way

how rude was he??
glad it was you A_B that gave him a roasting.. i had to turn my computer off for fear i would write something i woudl regret
PS my yellow book is one the way

nearly??!!!
if only !!??

Hahaha… shows the intelligence level Grant. I can’t help myself, Lag Pressure is someone I look up to and admire. Where I can from Grant I will always go to war for my mates and people I respect.

Fortunately Admin is getting used to me.. I think! lol

When he tells me to pull my head in, I do! ;-)

Subtlety is not a strong point of mine hahaha Like cracking eggs with a sledgehammer! :p

You are in for a treat with the yellow book mate!

nothing wrong with you passion mate !!
ha ha nice analogy ‘eggs and hammer’
can’t wait for the yellow book !!!.. will be great to have something decent to read on the ferry to work

u8ergolfer, I still do hit balata sometimes, I have stacks of balls in cartons from the days on tour. I was on the Dunlop Tour Staff, so I love the old DDH 100 Balata ball. They flew lower than a Titleist but you could really spin em.

Now I will play any ball. They all feel like rocks to me. If I walk off the fairway at my course, I will find 5 or 6 balls in the weeds easy, so I just hit whatever. Since my course is so windy, and very old style,
I only glance at the 150 marker, then from there I just try to feel the shot before I hit it… and having a feel for the ball is of course important… A lot of golf is intuition, any kind of distance shot around the greens, long putts, chips, it’s all intuitive, there is not much you can do mechanically really, when it comes to long putts, basic chips,
distance oriented shots. The new balls seem to play like the old surlyn covered balls, like the old top flights, or pinnacles. They seem to go a club further but the new balls seem to spin better. I haven’t played enough golf to really know. I think today was the 11th round of the year. All 11 rounds between 70 and 74. Nothing spectacular yet. When I do something amazing I’ll be glad to toast one to the forum! lol

Today’s round was a 72. Highlights were a 3 iron shot from 210 into a stiff right to left wind from and elevated tee, to a postage stamp green with hazards both right and left of the green. Ball started at the right edge of the green with a slight draw, hit the green and skipped, then checked up stopping 20 feet from the hole on the par 3 third. Dunked the putt for a two. The 17th saw my approach fly right into the cup.
Unfortunately the ball didn’t stay in the cup, but still converted for the birdie. A double bogey on the 7th took a two under start back to square. The rest of the round was pretty uneventful, the way I like it!

go LP go !!

No amount of $$ can buy what you have been sharing with us here
Treasure !

btw mayb someone should tell tiger about this site, then who knows ? maybe he will turn up ….. :))

Well,

To me, it shows that Lag Pressure succumbed to the life as a touring golf professional many years ago and could not cut the mustard as many a golfer has. Do a google and Lag Pressures career earnings are? Unless you have injury that destroys your playing career, well, if you are not good enough, give it up. It is great for a person to give a bio of their life on a forum..well is it? but fair dinkum…

www.palaceresorts.com

Austin:

YOU ARE A TOOL…

Probably best not to saying anything and let people think you are an idiot than to confirm it with one stupid uninformed post as you just have for all of us?

What tour do you play on?
How many Australian Opens have you played in?

Lag Pressure is hands down the most successful and most skilled golfer on this site. He does not have to be here and tell us the things he does. The fact that he is here shows he is a man of passion and impeccable character.

We certainly do not need morons like yourself ruining it for the rest of us that actually have a chance to make something of ourselves!

Your avatar says it all mate, you are a twat!

Anytime, any course, anywhere! Put your money where you mouth is! I hope I dont find out who you are, you comments anger me like nobody else's on this site has. Learn some respect!

You certainly are a walking advertisement for contraception!!

Some dream, others DO!

AB i just caught up and read this and s..t im still laughing …been awhile since i heard some good one liners

LP
Just had a peek at your swing and very nice. A few questions
your shoulders work very level and horizontally through impact which i prefer… how to you do this ? do you feel like your right shoulder gets to impact before your hands? does this maintain the shaft angle to match up at impact as to where it started from at address?
How do you keep the upper part of your right arm attached while straightening the right arm so quickly or is this an illusion due to how far your upper body rotates left?
sorry for so many questions

A_B (and everyone else) – do you reckon 18 holes with LP would be, like the coolest thing ever?

LP, I definitely think you should write your book. I think TGM is gaining momentum worldwide and now is the time to do it.

So when and how can I hook up with you for 18 holes?!!! You could always come to Northern Ireland in October while Guru is here. I’m planning on getting some play on the classic links while he is here with me. How would you be able to resist coming over and playing Royal County Down and Royal Portrush?!!

Just looking at the Brut Sun Bowl results from ‘85 and your contemporaries LP. I don’t mean this to sound derogatory, but when you were playing those events with him, did you mark Todd Hamilton out as a future major winner?

Slinger,

Turning the shoulders flat is really just turning them on their true axis, right angles to the spine. It’s a power move for the angle hinger.

The concept here is that the farther the left shoulder moves away from the ball after impact, the more the body, #4 is engaged. Since the arms and hands are all attached there at the left shoulder, the faster the shoulder moves in actual distance from the ball, the faster the club head moves… and if you can really rip the left hip through impact (delayed hip action) you can actually get the body to accelerate through impact… which I believe to be the ultimate objective of the golf swing. This is why there are little guys like Ian Woosnam who can just bomb it. The flatter your rotation the faster the left shoulder moves away from the ball. Tall players tend to use more upright clubs, and swing with steeper shoulders, they have an advantage with swing radius, but not rotational speed.

I’ll say it again, acceleration puts lag pressure on the shaft, and that pressure puts feel in the hands against the pressure points, and that pressure you feel in your hands is FEEL… and that feel is what educates your hands. Golf is a game of FEEL from tee to green.

If you look at B-9 to B-10

my swing (back view)

notice how much the left hip has moved, it really starts there, and that moves the upper torso, and ultimately #4 down to the club.
That is what I strive to do more than anything in the golf swing.

The problem most people have is that if they turn their shoulders “flat” they come OTT. This is where the right arm comes into it.
With this kind of pivot action you HAVE TO straighten the right arm
on the downswing to keep the clubshaft on plane, look at photos
B-7 to B-8
the right arm #1 accumulator is firing before #2 and #3.
So from just past B-8 to just past B-10 the right arm is really just frozen at about 120 degrees… it feels like a stiff, firm slapping motion through the ball, and I can say this from personal experience, when you have this going, it REALLY holds up under pressure.

If your heart rate goes up, your nervous as hell, you tighten your grip, whatever, it almost helps you hit it better.. you just might have to take one less club to account for the adrenalin.

WIth swinging I would always have to fight these things.. stay loose, free and flexible, and don’t get me wrong swinging works! But don’t you dare tighten those hinges, or interfere with a steady even acceleration.. then, swinging will not work, and you might feel like a helpless castaway on the seas of “it could go anywhere”.

I first put this to the test at “The One” where I was making birdies down the stretch to end up in a sudden death playoff. Even in the playoff there I ripped it down the middle and stripped a blade one iron over water to the back of the green. My opponent snap hooked his drive into woods left off the tee.

At Windsor I birdied two of the last five, but also hit a 6 iron 6 feet on 17 and missed the putt, and hit the green with a mid iron on 18 with a one shot lead over Bradley Hughes. Brad was making birdies too, he’s a great player, and to hold off a guy like that who was playing very well himself is quite a fun thing to do!

When I won the conference championship in college in Las Vegas
I was swinging, and I was really nervous on 18, and there was OB left and I remember really tightening up and hit a drive so far right I was somewhere off in #10 fairway. Luckily I had a two shot lead and I whimpered in for a bogey and a one shot win… but you just can’t tighten up swinging. I always felt like the best I could do with swinging, was learn to manage it.. either in the mind, or pick my bail outs well, or just get up and down around the greens if things went sour. Tightening up and over accelerating were my favorite things to do.. so when I switched over to hitting, the weeks when I was ON it was a lot more fun to have better control over the ball down the stretch than to have to worry about “unraveling”.

The other thing I enjoyed about hitting was it would travel so much better. It was a lot easier to get off the plane or a long car ride, and I could still keep the ball in play in a pro am or practice round, and actually get a feel for the course during the week rather than spend all my time doing drills, stretching, waiting for that heavy deliberate feeling to arrive to my hands and arms that were so vital to the swinging protocol.

I’ll take this rant one step further and say that it is quite possible that my body does not always secrete the right chemicals into my bloodstream, as I have always been the type of person that is very stiff when I get out of bed in the morning. I do know people that tell me they can just get out of bed and touch their toes without stretching and will claim that sleep makes them loose and flexible.
My body was never and still isn’t like that.

There was a PGA Tour player named Kelly Gibson who used to tell me his hands would feel swollen after plane flights, or after a long shower. So that was his thing he had to deal with…

Golfers are just nuts maybe!

Slinger,

Turning the shoulders flat is really just turning them on their true axis, right angles to the spine. It’s a power move for the angle hinger.

The concept here is that the farther the left shoulder moves away from the ball after impact, the more the body, #4 is engaged. Since the arms and hands are all attached there at the left shoulder, the faster the shoulder moves in actual distance from the ball, the faster the club head moves… and if you can really rip the left hip through impact (delayed hip action) you can actually get the body to accelerate through impact… which I believe to be the ultimate objective of the golf swing. This is why there are little guys like Ian Woosnam who can just bomb it. The flatter your rotation the faster the left shoulder moves away from the ball. Tall players tend to use more upright clubs, and swing with steeper shoulders, they have an advantage with swing radius, but not rotational speed.

I’ll say it again, acceleration puts lag pressure on the shaft, and that pressure puts feel in the hands against the pressure points, and that pressure you feel in your hands is FEEL… and that feel is what educates your hands. Golf is a game of FEEL from tee to green.

If you look at B-9 to B-10

my swing (back view)

notice how much the left hip has moved, it really starts there, and that moves the upper torso, and ultimately #4 down to the club.
That is what I strive to do more than anything in the golf swing.

The problem most people have is that if they turn their shoulders “flat” they come OTT. This is where the right arm comes into it.
With this kind of pivot action you HAVE TO straighten the right arm
on the downswing to keep the clubshaft on plane, look at photos
B-7 to B-8
the right arm #1 accumulator is firing before #2 and #3.
So from just past B-8 to just past B-10 the right arm is really just frozen at about 120 degrees… it feels like a stiff, firm slapping motion through the ball, and I can say this from personal experience, when you have this going, it REALLY holds up under pressure.

If your heart rate goes up, your nervous as hell, you tighten your grip, whatever, it almost helps you hit it better.. you just might have to take one less club to account for the adrenalin.

WIth swinging I would always have to fight these things.. stay loose, free and flexible, and don’t get me wrong swinging works! But don’t you dare tighten those hinges, or interfere with a steady even acceleration.. then, swinging will not work, and you might feel like a helpless castaway on the seas of “it could go anywhere”.

I first put this to the test at “The One” where I was making birdies down the stretch to end up in a sudden death playoff. Even in the playoff there I ripped it down the middle and stripped a blade one iron over water to the back of the green. My opponent snap hooked his drive into woods left off the tee.

At Windsor I birdied two of the last five, but also hit a 6 iron 6 feet on 17 and missed the putt, and hit the green with a mid iron on 18 with a one shot lead over Bradley Hughes. Brad was making birdies too, he’s a great player, and to hold off a guy like that who was playing very well himself is quite a fun thing to do!

When I won the conference championship in college in Las Vegas
I was swinging, and I was really nervous on 18, and there was OB left and I remember really tightening up and hit a drive so far right I was somewhere off in #10 fairway. Luckily I had a two shot lead and I whimpered in for a bogey and a one shot win… but you just can’t tighten up swinging. I always felt like the best I could do with swinging, was learn to manage it.. either in the mind, or pick my bail outs well, or just get up and down around the greens if things went sour. Tightening up and over accelerating were my favorite things to do.. so when I switched over to hitting, the weeks when I was ON it was a lot more fun to have better control over the ball down the stretch than to have to worry about “unraveling”.

The other thing I enjoyed about hitting was it would travel so much better. It was a lot easier to get off the plane or a long car ride, and I could still keep the ball in play in a pro am or practice round, and actually get a feel for the course during the week rather than spend all my time doing drills, stretching, waiting for that heavy deliberate feeling to arrive to my hands and arms that were so vital to the swinging protocol.

I’ll take this rant one step further and say that it is quite possible that my body does not always secrete the right chemicals into my bloodstream, as I have always been the type of person that is very stiff when I get out of bed in the morning. I do know people that tell me they can just get out of bed and touch their toes without stretching and will claim that sleep makes them loose and flexible.
My body was never and still isn’t like that.

There was a PGA Tour player named Kelly Gibson who used to tell me his hands would feel swollen after plane flights, or after a long shower. So that was his thing he had to deal with…

Golfers are just nuts maybe!

Styles,

If you ever get to San Francisco, do look me up, It would be a pleasure to play a round of golf or two! I would love to get over to Ireland and play some old style tracks. Maybe even with some old hickorys! It’s fun to have some contacts and it’s offers like that that get the wheels turning!

I have some nice sets, blades and persimmon!

Back then Todd Hamilton was always a good player, but he wasn’t dominating or anything. Just really another guy that if he was playing good that week would be in contention. I played a lot with Todd, and for a fairly big guy didn’t hit the ball very long. I would say I hit it 10 to 20 by him back then with us both on persimmon.

We were at PGA Tour school one year, and were paired together, and he shows up with this high tech driver he picked up in Japan, and now he’s hitting it 20 by me! He was telling everyone how that saved his game, and he was able to win over in Japan with the new gear. It was at that moment I knew that golf was going to change.
I knew that I would be literally forced to have to go the lightweight titanium jumbo heads at some point. The original metal woods, I’m thinking Taylor Made stuff from the 80’s didn’t really do much for distance, guys used to carry them so they could hit driver off the fairway easier, that was really about the extent of it.

Todd Hamilton winning the Open was great to see, we were all rooting for him, as we were for Brian Watts a few years earlier.
All those guys including Rocco came out of the same era I was in.

The guys I would have picked to win majors that I played with in College were Cory Pavin, Duffy Waldorf, Sam Randolph, Billy Ray Brown, Chris Perry, Davis Love, Scott Verplank, Willie Wood, Steve Pate, Louis Brown, VIc Wilk. Those guys come to mind first. I’d have another 10 names if I thought about it again.

You have to remember, that with 144 players teeing off on Thursday, somebody by the weekend is having the best week of their life, every week. There is always some guy who is making everything, holing shots from the fairway, whatever, I mean every week someone is playing way out of their minds! So no matter who you are, if you are going to win, you are going to have to deal with that!

The thing that makes the greats great, is that they DON’T have to be having the career week of their life to win. When Greg Norman was in his prime, he just needed to play average for him to be in contention. If he played good he would win easy, and if he was playing great he would win by 12! Same with Tiger and all the greats.

Todd winning the Open, he was having the best week of his life, and it happened to be the week of the Open! That’s what makes golf great! Now would he have won with persimmon and blades? I would guess not. Of course I might be wrong, but I can tell you that he is a perfect example the new gear really making a difference in his game.

I know some would argue that with the new stuff, it’s the same for everyone, but I would tend to disagree, because some guys don’t really need the extra distance, and some guys that are really pure ball strikers hit it dead solid almost all the time, so making the sweet spot bigger doesn’t help them as much, and may even hurt them if you take into consideration the feel and feedback they lose in their practice sessions, and on the course.

Golf is really a different game now..
I’ve hit the new stuff and I can’t work it like I can with persimmon.
I don’t have the pin point accuracy with the new irons when I am ON.
I will be better on the bad days, but I would rather be better on my good days personally. The new stuff just brings more guys into the game, especially around the cut score.

One thing is for certain, you don’t have to be as good as you used to be to shoot the same score.

AB i just caught up and read this and s..t im still laughing …been awhile since i heard some good one liners

Hahahaha… Thanks mate, Im not going to stand for anyone to be rude to LP as I respect and admire the man. Class with a capital C!

Mate come to work with me at the Fire House, it’s one liner city all day long!! (And practical jokes!) If you don’t have a sense of humour as a fire fighter, you are going to have a long career!!

A_B (and everyone else) ˆ¢’Ǩ’Äú do you reckon 18 holes with LP would be, like the coolest thing ever?

Mate I would settle for 1 hole or a bucket of practice balls! It would be an amazing experience that you would learn so much from! I have no doubt!

Mate come to work with me at the Fire House, it's one liner city all day long!! (And practical jokes!) If you don't have a sense of humour as a fire fighter, you are going to have a long career!!

AB

Where are you based ?

I’m in the Freshwater Creek Rural Brigade.

Mate come to work with me at the Fire House, it's one liner city all day long!! (And practical jokes!) If you don't have a sense of humour as a fire fighter, you are going to have a long career!!

AB

Where are you based ?

I'm in the Freshwater Creek Rural Brigade.

Melbourne Metro Brigade matey ;-)

Fire Fighters?

We have literally 800 fires here in Northern California right now, the skies are red and I can’t even see the bridge from here. We could use some help.. !!

Fire Fighters?

We have literally 800 fires here in Northern California right now, the skies are red and I can't even see the bridge from here. We could use some help.. !!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

WOW, that’s not good at all Lag. I am sure they will send out some international reinforcements soon, it always happens. Unfortunately fire fighting like everything else is a very political game. You have to be asked to help by the controlling agency and sometimes you are just not allowed to go. Kind of stinks when it is life and property on the line!

May the winds die down and the rain clouds find their way to you guys!

Fire Fighters?

We have literally 800 fires here in Northern California right now, the skies are red and I can't even see the bridge from here. We could use some help.. !!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

WOW, that's not good at all Lag. I am sure they will send out some international reinforcements soon, it always happens. Unfortunately fire fighting like everything else is a very political game. You have to be asked to help by the controlling agency and sometimes you are just not allowed to go. Kind of stinks when it is life and property on the line!

May the winds die down and the rain clouds find their way to you guys!

Some dream, others DO!

Hi Ab and everyone – I have just caught up with what’s been happening – well said mate and I also concur with all the other pos comments re John E.

Lag, you may or may not write a book but I have every post you’ve made in a word document – it’s reading like a bloody book!! :-)

Ah the one liners – I remember Melbourne well, especially north side – I think half the fun in going to work was finding who was going to cop what from whom.. North Melbourne were notorius for hanging shite on one and all…lol I shouldn’t tell you this but I was 1st driver, the bells went down at 2AM – Got to the call (false alarm) and here’s me sitting in the truck with no trousers on… boots were on and the tunic – seems I woke up as I was driving out the door…did I cop it for the next few months…lol

Hello All,

First time poster, long time lurker, here. I thought it might be beneficial to point out that the latest edition of the “little yellow book”, The Golfing Machine 7th edition, is available directly from http://www.thegolfingmachin... for only $35 USD.

I only post this becuase I read that someone might try ebay or something to purchase the book. There are some really crazy people out there asking more than $100 USD for used copies or older editions. I have not found anywhere offering new latest editions for less.

While I’m here I would like to praise iseekgolfguru and lagpressure for their offerings here. To anyone else reading who may be new to golf or to this forum, like the PGA commercial says, “These guys are good”. I have been a golf instructor for some time now and can think of no better source online for information regarding the golf swing. I’m done groveling now.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

irspow,

Thanks for the support, and it’s great to hear there may soon be another TGM instructor to teach law.

Teaching the game of golf is certainly an interesting paradox.

There was a teacher in Fresno where attended university who was very popular and well known. He was not TGM and I would classify him as one the “smoke and mirror” guys. Nonetheless, a really interesting and nice man. I used to practice over at his range on occasion and he loved to ask me questions about this very unorthodox method I was using and having success with.

He was an elder who came across as the “old man of life’s wisdom’s”

I remember him telling me as if it was yesterday,
“John, if you ever end up teaching this game, remember one thing, a golf lesson only takes 5 minutes, and you’ll spend the other 25 minutes so your student will think their getting their moneys worth”.

What he was saying is that you can only tell a person one swing thought per week, and that’s all their brain can really handle.

Then he went on to say,
“John, if you want to make a good living as a teacher, the student will always come back to you if they are hitting the ball better at the end of the lesson than they were at the beginning of the lesson”.
“The great thing about teaching is, they’ll be hitting it better by just warming up through the bucket!”

He had people lined up all day long.. he really knew how to make a living as a teacher. Very complimentary, “your doing just great!”
He’d teach things like, “Just try to feel a little more relaxed or just stay with the shot a bit longer”.

The real kicker was when he told me “you just can’t tell them the truth if you want them coming back, and if you mess them up at all, there going to spend their money somewhere else!”

I remember fearing he was speaking a horrific human truth!
Maybe people really don’t want the truth! or can’t handle the truth!

Kinda like “The Matrix”, take the blue pill and see the truth or take the red pill and stay in this reality bubble…

We know that if people put in the time, and dedication, and apply TGM their game will improve dramatically, but how do you spot the golfer looking for the quick fix? and how do you deal with that?
Do you ever just band aid them?

It would be interesting to hear feedback from Guru, Dart, and Isrpow…

Welcome irspow:) Good to see a lurker starting to post!

Lag: That band aide question is a good one. My lesson sessions are 3 hours long so that there is plenty of time to get to the root cause and explain the Laws, as you put it so well, that a rebuild can be undertaken in the correct context. Those for example who turn up with an “I slice my driver” issue, they may well find themselves going through Basic and then Acquired Motion work to find where the most basic wobble in their canoe is. If thats OK then up into Total Motion but that is rare with our weekend warriors.

I have only every had one chap turn up for a lesson who disappeared off the radar after an Basic Motion start up session. When I got in touch with him his comment was “I still cannot hit my driver.” Here was someone expecting a miracle so my reply was “Well I hope you are chipping with it.”

I do a quick follow up session with the student after they have had time to digest and practice what was done in the session, where a good semblance of from into the mind, into the hands, to clubshaft and clubface has happened. Precision may not be there but the knowing what and why hopefully has sunk in and then gets cemented in the follow up when they turn up with a list of foggy questions before moving up the power accumulator chain. So it is up to the students own timetable and incubator periods as to how long it will be before they come back. Some are really dedicated, some over eager to move forward and others just need a little more practice time. I get very very few who just come to have me hit their ball for them.

Quality is more important than quantity.

Lag,

I stopped telling lies to people in 1991 and almost went out of business.

Eventually I learned a new way of teaching and my clientele changed for the better.

Initially I used a lot of TGM words but soon found plenty more that worked just as well. But there is still a lot of room for a good bedside manner.

I don’t know how Tom Tomasello got through a day.

After the pros, the student(s)...
Lag
In 1 month this thread became by far the most important of the forum. I consider for myselft that it is mainly thanks to your great and competent contribution. Because you are a professional, but also a humanist. Luckily these two qualities are the ones that we find at all the big professors. We can make money by giving to our clients what they want to hear. We can also blossom personally by sharing knowledge without breaking our moral rules. You have all the qualities to make both at the same time , like Dart did .
Thank you very, very much in any case for your posts which helped me to understand a little better my own golf (I am a Ben Doyle “disciple” )

Guru,

3 hour sessions, that is some serious commitment to your students! Bravo! I hope they appreciate how fortunate they are to have such a teacher. When I look at the average golfer I too think the same thing,
REBUILD! lol Like you said, finding the right context is key. I think keeping the student away from a ball until they are getting the basics of feeling the new positions, and then learning to move from one static position to another with some sense of motion and rhythm would be ideal from my viewpoint, but I know how people are, they want so bad to hit that ball, and better yet, get out on the course.

When I was making major swing changes, it would not be uncommon for me to do several hundred reps a day, and still not have it feel totally integrated for weeks, sometimes 6 to 8 weeks.

I like your idea of quality over quantity. Of course not every instructor has that luxury. Ben Doyle had a lot of dedicated students once Clampett became a household name in the golf community in 1978.
I referred a lot of people to Ben early on as well. At that time, Greg McHatton was gaining a fine reputation and I worked some with Greg too. He was closer to where I lived and I could work with either of them, for the simple reason that they both taught G.O.L.F. Law,
and not opinion.

DART,
You make a good point about interpretation, and using more friendly terminology for those who haven’t had the opportunity or taken the time to read TGM. LAW doesn’t change just because you call it something different.

Homer certainly did us all a favor by redefining terminology and removing the shroud that had blanketed the game for so long.
It was so refreshing to work with teachers that wouldn’t use the ol,
“you just came off it a bit” or “stay with it”

philthevet06

Are you in California? When is the last time you saw Ben?

A quick question to all the TGM’ers,
Has anyone studied Mac O’Grady’s take on TGM or his own venturing off into his MORAD thing? Did he ever get his book out?

Mac’s book seem to still be ‘coming’. Unless you go see him there is not much to go on other than those who have been seem to get it.
What ‘it’ is I cannot say coz I do not know:)

Lesson wise players always want to hit balls. Limiting the number until their perception of what reality is vs what they thought it was allows rather rapid ‘ah ha’ moments. It may be way different to what the weekend warrior was doing before and feels weird. Weird is good as its now a sense awareness that change can be good.

Phil might be waking up by now. Southern France I believe.

All truely “great” teachers have two things in common, one is obvious ( no not to make money ) to pass on their knowledge because they…...want to.
The second quality is far more elusive, the ability to communicate. Here I am going to buy an arguement, I suspect.
Many teachers, not restricted to golf I hesitate to add, are “in” teachers, that is to say they are able to communicate their ‘in” thoughts to fellow teachers, meanwhile their students, pay and pay, and continue to stumble along bewildered about what..tha!!!.
Many others teachers are “in fashion” and they make money just by being who they are or who their current best student happens to be.
I do not believe that there are too many students, of anything, ( emphasis students ) who are looking for a quick fix. Many of the people who contribute to this forum are genuinely seeking to improve… in my opinion it is neither “wise” nor helpful to treat them as anything other than…seekers of…....improvement.
Beware the “in” teacher.

Lag,
How often do you feel the need to go back to (your) the basic motion? Basic positions? from a personal point of view, I find that sometimes, even perhaps only after 30 or 40 balls ( and I practice every day) that I need to do it simply to act as a circuit breaker for want of a better term. Also make no mistake …I love to practice, as for calling it work, really it is not the term for me.. cheers..

i got the mail today !!!!

thanks guru

Dart,

I stopped telling lies to people in 1991 and almost went out of business.

What lies did you tell?

I don't know how Tom Tomasello got through a day.

Could you explain this statement?

Mac sure is taking his time. I remember back in the late 80’s one of the guys on tour was working with Mac, and had some photo copies of some of the pages of Mac’s book or “findings” in his briefcase, and invited a couple of us up for a look at it one night in his hotel room in Vancouver. Apparently he wasn’t supposed to show this to anyone, because it was “top secret”! I remember feeling like we were in some espionage spy movie or cracking the di vinci code! Back then before the internet and Youtube, it was a big deal to have video of Mac, or
other great ball strikers. We used to trade stuff like we were kids trading baseball cards or something. Moe Norman let me film him at Red Deer CC in 1987 at a clinic he did there, and he was in a good mood that day and let me get all kinds of great angles, and he was hitting all kinds of shots, bunker shots, drivers off the ground, all his usual stunts. I had this great camera that would shoot at 10,000 frames per second, so I probably have some of the best footage of Moe around. He still hit it pretty good then. He didn’t really become a household name till later when they put him on the cover of golf digest, and then the “Natural Golf” thing, which I have never looked at. By the mid 90’s I think his body was starting to give out a bit.

Mac, I did run into several times, and was able to pick his brain on a few things. I also had a lot of his lessons on video that were circulating in the underground. I would imagine all that stuff is on Youtube now. Most of what I learned about Mac’s theories was very
TGM of course, but he did make some really good points about rotational speed, and compared a figure skater pulling in their arms when they would go into a spin to increase their speed. Of course by doing that you could lose swing radius if you took that to an extreme and stood too close to the ball.

I have always been more interested in what people actually do in their swings, than what they say they are doing in their swings. Both Mac, Hogan, and Moe for that matter are some of the games purest strikers ever, but they don’t always do what they say. What they do and what they feel often seem to be different.

Hogan starts with his hands higher at address, and then his hands come in lower and tighter to his body at impact. Mac does the opposite. Which is better? I would think Hogan’s would be better personally. I like an out to in motion, and I have seen a lot more good golf played that way that in to out. I’m sure Mac has his reasons for what he does and if Mac ever comes across this forum I won’t be surprised to find a dead goats head on my doorstep in the morning for even questioning his application! lol

I do hope Mac gets his book out someday. I would certainly buy it and learn a lot I’m sure.

u8ergolfer

I only play now and rarely hit balls. If I go out and don’t feel I struck the ball as purely as I would have wished, then it is back to basics. I have a very strict routine I do without a ball, and I have exercises I do that would cover all of the bodies motion and positions. These rudiments I go through are applied as needed, and am in the process of incorporating them as ritual.

If I feel I need to make a somewhat significant adjustment to my motion, I might “exaggerate” a feeling or certain swing dynamic for a while, then go back to rudiments. Once I feel the motion is “whipped back into shape” I might place a ball in it’s path for a quick test flight.
If the ball shows that the correction has been made, I don’t need to hit too many, two or three maybe, and then I’m ready to go play again.

I have my swing set up so that it is basically the same from driver to wedge.

If I can hit it straight, then fades and draws are no problem. When on the course I almost always work the ball one way or another. I always eliminate one side, usually aiming toward but not quite at trouble then work my shot towards target. I have never liked to work the ball towards trouble.

Now with the short game, chipping and such, I like the hands to have a heavy deliberate feel, and if that feeling is not there, the best way to get that back is to chip a few hundred balls at varies targets. Once the feel comes back, I just then leave it alone. I might do that every couple weeks or so. I have some great putting drills I do from time to time, but I find the best practice is lag putting across the green. Long putts.. if my feel is good for speed on long putts, it seems to be good on short ones too. Maybe that’s just me.

One thing I have learned and believe, is that if you really know how to do something, you shouldn’t have to practice it much. If it’s really YOU, and you really own your motion, practicing is not all that necessary. If you feel you have to hit 200 balls a day to keep your swing in shape, I would question the reliability and fundamentals of that swing.

I remember Robert Gamez being asked once, “aren’t you going to practice today?” and he replied, “If I can’t beat all these guys without practicing I shouldn’t be here”

Guys,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Sadly, you may have encouraged me to start posting some things that should never leave the space between my ears. Lag, if I may presume to be casual with someone of his stature, raises some interesting questions.

“We know that if people put in the time, and dedication, and apply TGM their game will improve dramatically, but how do you spot the golfer looking for the quick fix? and how do you deal with that? Do you ever just band aid them?”

I would say that the vast majority of my students are looking for some sort of short-cut to improvement or a new swing thought that will transform their game. You know, the one “secret” that good players somehow keep hidden from the average duffer. It does not really bother me as I have come to almost expect this type of attitude from most students. Rather than let this get me down, because it used to sadden me that they did not realize what type of commitment was necessary to play golf to their full potential, I use it as an opportunity to give them an “Aha!” moment. I will discuss this shortly.

When the rare student approaches with the true desire and willingness to excel I will build their swing with my principle of “perfection before progression”. Without going into extreme details about this methodology, it is quite a logical way of learning, at least to me. Starting with the shortest strokes, like putting and chipping, I have the student demonstrate to themselves that they can hole every stroke planned and executed correctly. Starting with six inch putts and working incrementally to the edge of the green I want the student to “know” that he will hole every putt before moving through each increment. The chips start from just six inches off the green and progress the same way. So on and so on. I have found this the easiest way to breed excellence into my students. They learn to accept nothing short of perfection. Obviously I redefine perfection while moving further from the target, but I never allow them to believe that it is acceptable to be simply “close” to their target. If they miss a 100 yard target by 10 feet they must “know” that it was because of a variable not taken into account rather than their execution. I have them work on listening for, and expecting, the thud of the ball hitting a particular yardage marker before moving to the next one out. I just love when these students walk about with their chests puffed out after a session of practice.

As for the rest who want the “secret”, I give it to them. At least they think I do. For example, if a student comes obsessed with distance and I notice that they are not compressing the ball enough, I will have them hit about twenty balls about ten inches in front of their normal ball position until I see them with no release until their hands are well past where the ball would have been normally. With this “feel” the student looks like a kid on Christmas morning when he returns the ball to its normal postion. In short, I find the one thing that will give them the instant gratification they are seeking and they will think that I am some sort of Guru or something. This then allows me, their now most favorite person in the whole world, to suggest that there are in fact a lot of other things that would provide similar experiences. “I have a lot of secrets, not just one.” Sounds silly, but this is the usual way I am forced to trick people into making more substantial changes to their overall golf game or technique.

To be honest though, this is not my favorite type of teaching because the student usually wants more “secrets” unless I can convince them later on that they need to truly understand concepts that lead to improvement and not shortcuts to outcomes.
Shortcuts or “secrets” seem to be only a means to a particular or known type of feel while understanding can lead to developing new feels for themselves that I may not be able to communicate to them efficiently. In other words, band-aids that I provide will only serve as a limited range of tools at their disposal and will lead to no further growth on their own. True understanding of dynamics will give them a life long and limitless foundation to build upon and experiment with so that they can develop new and effective feeling for themselves.

That is why I currently seek out to teach as many programs for new golfers as I can find. New golfers tend to not have all of the destructive misinformation that clog the minds of “good” golfers and are much more receptive to learning “whys” as opposed to seeking “hows”. Plus I have an affinity for building good golfers from scratch as they usually progress farther and faster than virtually all experienced players. I warn them from the beginning that I have a background in mechanical engineering and approach the game scientifically when it is beneficial to do so and for the most part they generally seem to enjoy the idea of starting from that perspective.

Sorry to be long-winded but it is in my faulty nature to do so. Thanks all for your patience.

Its not long winded when it is interesting to read irspow!

Keep posting dude!

Lag,

I have failed to address the original purpose of this thread. You said you were interested in the opinions of others regarding hitting and swinging. I am in no way rebutting your earlier very interesting and perceptive posts in this matter. I am just offering my humble opinion to give another perspective. It is one that has absolutely no tour playing authority attached, which I feel is a very unique and important point of view indeed, so please accept it as one offered in personal experience only.

Hitting to me is a beautiful and powerful method employed by many. Sadly for me, it is elusive as I have not found a method of implementing it as efficiently as swinging. Specifically, I lack the strength necessary and am not inclined to rebuild myself and my game as I am content with both. My goal in life is to help other people find life long pleasure playing this game as I have done for myself and not to compete at the highest levels of the game. That is not a snub, but rather an indication of my personal nature.

Back to the main point, hitting is what I personally teach to my students who have a marked physical limitation in flexibility as well as those who seem to have the temperament and physique to take advantage of its unique aspects. Swinging, on the other hand, is the method I find works better for the vast majority of recreational golfers that I teach. To be clear, I am not saying that it is superior in function, but rather “fits” the strength and flexibility of the average person.

Lag, I find it quite interesting that you focus upon the “oily” hinges while discussing swinging. While that is a truly valid perspective it is not how I focus my attention to swinging methodology. I do not percieve those free hinges as working through purposeful focus on relaxation or flexibility per se, but rather omission or different focus producing their correct non-use. That probably was not clear at all. Most of my students will interupt the hinges while purposely trying faithfully to not interupt them. My thought on this is that if you “feel” nothing, you are exerting or disrupting something. For the hinges to work correctly, in my humble opinion, you can not even be aware of them being “oily” in the first place. In other words, to “sense” the hinges requires an active physical exertion in order for your mind to recieve feedback. The very act of sensing a feeling in an of itself within a specific area interupts and alters the natural and efficient mechanical movement that is trying to be monitored. Sorry, rambling again.

This is perhaps why you had certain difficulties in maintaining these “effortless” motions from day to day. If you “felt” stiff, you were indeed probably producing this stiffness by your observation. I hope this made some sense to you.

Briefly, my opinions are as follows:

Hitting:
Pro: Can avail those that are stronger, unavoidably
aggressive, or markedly inflexible more power.
Con: Strength is variable and subjective to many influences.
Conscious sequencing of strong muscle
contractions is very difficult for most people to
time correctly or quantitatively on a consistent
basis.

Swinging:
Pro: Sequencing is simplified as it is “passive” in
nature. Requires only average strength and
flexibility.
Con: Requires mental discipline to not interfere with
mechanical efficiency during times of stress
and learning.

Just my observations from the lesson tee and personal golfing experience and nothing more. Hope I have offered something valuable.

irspow,

Thank you for the wonderful posts, and your hands on insight into the swinging vs hitting from the perspective as a teacher of the game.

My perspective has been mainly as a practitioner and implementor of these concepts, a kind of “human guinea pig” or “laboratory rat” tested in the hell fires of international competition.

I am quite sure, that given a fresh piece of clay, I could sculpt a masterful swing, motion and application of TGM concepts for a golfer willing to put in the time, effort and dedication, assuming I had earned their trust and respect so they would follow such a blind ambition!

Having to re work a swing, change someone’s already ingrained bad habits, or reworking those habits into, or should I say redirecting those energies into something more lawful, I would not be as confident in my abilities as an instructor.

There is no doubt that years or decades on the practice tee working with golfers of all levels will teach the teacher great lessons, not just about golf, but about human psychology, sociology, and on and on.

All these factors would come into play in writing the students prescription for golfing improvement, accessing their personal goals,
nurturing their emotions through the obvious highs, and mostly lows they will inevitably experience on such a human pursuit as golf.

I have great respect for anyone who takes on golf teaching as a profession, whether or not I agree with their protocol, applications of law and so forth. It is got to be a very tough life calling.

irspow

You have brought up some very interesting topics here, so let me ponder, as I will be away this weekend, it’s fun to have such an intellectual post appear here, and look forward to wrapping by brain around some of this stuff when I return on Monday.

Have a great weekend..

P.S.

I played yesterday and had a breakthrough round, the putter caught fire, and carded a 67. Took a gamble on the 18th and fired at a tucked pin with a 3 iron, a near perfect shot that found the hazard and resulted in a double bogey! It could just as easily been a 64.
It was really fun, and days like that are nice treats. Still a bogey free round! LOL

Lag,

I absolutely love what you say here:

“One thing I have learned and believe, is that if you really know how to do something, you shouldn't have to practice it much. If it's really YOU, and you really own your motion, practicing is not all that necessary. If you feel you have to hit 200 balls a day to keep your swing in shape, I would question the reliability and fundamentals of that swing.”

I see a lot of really “good” players practicing a lot. We also all know about those practice monsters like Vijay. It must be a mental thing or idiosyncrosy of these guys.

In fact, I base one of my absolute tests of golf swing ability and understanding upon the ability of one to strike a ball perfectly with their eyes closed. I have found that anyone who is a consistently good ball striker has no problem whatsoever in hitting fine shot after shot without seeing the ball.

Often this is exactly how I prove to a student that they have a faulty swing when they insist otherwise. Without seeing the ball, they cannot make compensations they with their hand eye coordination that often masks swing flaws. I usually get the eye roll from them when they fail to execute this way, but I put them firmly in place by hitting quality shots with my eyes closed. They simply cannot dispute the demonstration.

For anyone who has not done this exercise I strongly recommend doing so every so often. After you are sure that you have set-up and aimed properly close your eyes and fire away. If you don’t hit your target you will know for sure that your swing is not a swing at all but a series of manipulations on the way to the ball. And I can guarantee that when this exercise becomes easy to perform that you have a solid repeatable swing free from defects of almost any kind.

If you can’t hit your target with your mind, you don’t stand much chance of doing it with your body either.