I hear ya…..try playing with a half set these days…i had a half set that had about 5 different brand names amongst them when I started. Now kids get a set of taylor mades for Xmas
I will tell one interesting story…....I won a big tournament using 13 clubs!!
A driver with a head that would now be smaller than a 5 wood head

---

1iron thru to SW and a putter….. no 3 wood…. no lob wedge… 13 total
I don’t think I have ever heard of anyone using LESS than the amount of clubs in an event on purpose let alone winning a PGA event, but I didn’t have a 3 wood I liked and I felt I could do the same thing with the SW as I could with a LW so I didn’t use them that week
I think that is pretty funny in this day and age where some players have about 5 headcovers in their bag and 4 wedges and about 4 real irons…. just goes to show there are all types of ways to come up with a result

SMTM … you are starting to reveal some mare data about yourself and the bloodhounds will be on to you soon. Great story.

My bag has …. and I’m embarrassed to say …. driver, 3w, 3&4 hybrid, irons 5-w, gw,sw,lw and putter. I have never had so many tools for the job! And they are all my mates so would not part with them! And that doesn’t include a few matching clubs banished to the locker. Gotta keep the golf industry wheels spinning.

Okay I will try to keep my response as brief as possible to add to a few points raised/asked…

SMTM: Thanks I can totally agree with you and I would imagine that for a golfer playing golf having a uniform swingweight across your set would be critical for consistancy?

I also agree with the notion that your guys wouldn’t want to change your swing to fit the spin rates of equipment, hence why the slightly stiffer shafts are favoured?

My current swing speed sits around 135-145 but has been as high as 153mph… If I listened to protocol I would be placed in a XX to XXX shaft that has a weight of around 80grams.. However I believe my loading/unloading pattern is kind of different and I am currently finding lighter with more flex to be producing the goods. I am fortunate enough to have learnt to take the spin off my driver (as per long drive’s requirements) and I rarely go higher than 2400rpm (more likely sit around low 2000’s). I also learnt that trajectory has little to do with spin rate. I tend to launch the ball higher than considerred optimal but still maintain that flat low spin flight. In LD what we look for is no “upshoot” this is a quick indication that spin rate is too high. If you “upshoot” in our comps you are dead.

Robbo:

50” vertical is our maximum. And yes I am saying for what I hit with a 45” vertical in regular currently (43.5-44” traditional), I should hit a 49” vertical driver (47.5” traditional) way further than I do. Hence I am now at a point where I am questioning the traditional LD set up and am experiementing with my own theory… Interesting what I have found too.

RT1:

I believe Mass has gotten too much good press in force production! (And I have recently been proven correct by a world reknowned source I have approached)

Here’s why: (and I apologise for my crude physics but it is for the sake of explanation)

F = ma (where a is the change in velocity of a said distance and time frame) or F = m (Vf – Vi / t)

What are the SI units in this equation? Force is measured in Newtons, newtons are mearly kg m/s-2. We can therefore see that mass in the equation is measured in Kg (1kg = 2.2lbs) so will increasing the mass of the clubhead by 10, 20 or even 30 grams add that much extra force when it is expressed as 0.01, 0.02 or 0.03 respectively? Increasing the final clubhead speed on the other hand will a) increase the velocity component as well as b) decreasing the time component. Will adding 10, 20 or 30 grams decrease your ability to produce speed? Absolutely! But what have you truly gained?

I agree with Lag that acceleration is more vital than speed, ever wonder why a big hitter holds their release so late?

I will talk to you more via email RT1 if you want to hear the ins and outs… Not the forum for it here ;)

Played today with Al Barkow, and Ron Chalmers who ran the Rifle shaft company for many many years.. we did a lot to shaft talk out there and he was intrigued with the stiff logs I have in my 59 Dynapowers. He new exactly how thick they were, and said they were one of the heaviest thickest shafts ever made since hickory. They both were commenting on how nice it was to hear the crack of persimmon again. Neither of them had heard a persimmon driver hit in over 15 years.

Al came very close to shooting his age, quite impressive making a few birdies, and just has a really pure putting stroke. He wrote a book with George Low, one of golf’s all time putting gurus.. taught Palmer how to putt during his King years.

I loved this story from Al today..

Sam Snead and baseball legend Ted Williams where discussing which sport is more difficult, hitting a golf ball, or hitting a breaking curve ball coming at you 95 mph… Snead replied to Ted… “Ted, golf is harder because we have to go play our foul balls!”

Ron talked about making custom shaft set ups for a well known PGA tour winner, and how he put extra steel rods in the bottom ends of his shafts then glued in with washers around the rods so that all the flex would happen higher up the shaft toward the grip. It took them forever to make that set up.

One interesting thing I learned this last year from alternating sets between rounds is that if you swing the club properly as I promote,
you can swing any kind of shaft, because if you are holding shaft flex all the way to the ball, if the shaft is looser, your hands are just slightly more ahead of the ball through impact. The hands feel a little more left, and your divots will have a more fish hook look to them (going left) The stiffer shafts feel a bit more inline, more squarish looking divots, and the ball flight is slightly higher.. you get to know the difference in ball flight protocols for each… and learn how to play them.. not fear them.

I found I could adjust to the new shaft with just a practice swing, and start to develop instinct and confidence about how the shaft will react before you even hit it.. you learn to anticipate it, the feel of it just from a practice swing and waggle.. it’s really more empowering to know you can strike it well with any shaft, rather than be overly concerned that everything has to be perfect, or your game is going to fall apart unless ever shaft if properly fitted, spined, and frequency matched to manufactures specs.

Did this thread just hit 100 pages?

maybe we should all take a moment, and blink our eyes in disbelief!

Congratulations Lag.

Its because you are so knowledgeable and passionate about the game that this thread is so epic.

The internet technology age really allows the thread to develop its full potential. Us amateurs are lucky to have you and now other knowledgeable pros share their knowledge so generously.

Keep it going, you could write a book just from reading your posts and some of the other very knowledgeable folk. Roll on the next 100 pages, this is addictive, a bit like Facebook is for my wife!

Thank you.

Hey Lag,

I was thinking about your upcoming video…. about hitting and swinging differences.

As you very well know, I had zero exposure to Golf Machine mechanics and I have never read Homer’s book. So, since you have been helping me with all the video feedback and instruction, I have made a mental list of all of the ‘new’ feels that became constant, and paramount to my swing compared to ‘other’ feels.

So I know this is probably going to be utterly wrong in some areas, and considering all I have to go on is your instruction, I want to take a stab at it for fun!!!!

Here goes nothing:
- The swinger is left side dominant, the hitter is more right side dominant. (earlier I felt a total switch of sides, but now it’s evened out more)

- The swinger isn’t fighting anything… he is taking a longer swing if anything to promote the club force. Whereas the hitter fights the club’s ‘natural’ direction!

- If a swinger threw his club, it would end up way down field. If a hitter threw his club, it end up somewhere spinning behind him.

- A swinger’s body is along for the ride. A hitter’s body IS the engine. Hitter’s need Popeye forearms, and swingers can get away with the physics of their swing to do most of the work.

Things I’m not sure about:

- I think a hitter is best with a neutral grip. My body closes the face as much as my hands do. I imagine a swinger wants a stronger grip to compensate…?

- A hitter doesn’t NEED a long backswing. He’s going to be using his core as much as his forearms/wrists. A swinger needs that extra ‘time’ to build momentum…?

- (as a right hander) The HARDER a hitter turns left, the better he hits the ball (overall). I don’t think the same is true of a swinger…?

I’ll stop there. I have more, much more, but I could be making enough of an arse out of myself as it is with this! lol

I just thought it would be fun to see if my ‘feels’ since taking your modules/instruction are correct and correlate to swinging/hitting very much. Really just thought it would be fun to try. ;)

- A swinger's body is along for the ride. A hitter's body IS the engine.

See that’s the opposite of TGM – and it’s also why I asked Lag the question about what he is a page or so back.

There’s Hitting (per TGM) and there’s “Hitting (per Lag)”.......

Hi Lag
Just bought these beuties on e-bay. Brand new 1950 Wilsons, Dr. Cary Middlecoff signature forged blades. Not sure I will ever take them to a course. Just a wonderful idea that this dentist decided he had seen enough mouths and filled too many teeth and would rather be golfing. Beat Hogan by 7 strokes at the 1955 Masters.

Bio: Emmett Cary Middlecoff (January 6, 1921 – September 1, 1998) was a dentist from Memphis, Tennessee who gave up his practice to join what is now the PGA Tour in the 1940s. At the time, a career as a dentist would quite likely have been more lucrative.

During his playing career he won 40 professional tournaments, including the 1955 Masters and U.S. Open titles in 1949 and 1956 and later developed a reputation as one of the best of the early golf television commentators. He won the Vardon Trophy for lowest scoring average in 1956. He played on three Ryder Cup teams: 1953, 1955, and 1959. In 1986, he was inducted into the World Golf Hall of Fame.
Major Won
1956 U.S. Open +1 (71-70-70-70=281) 1 stroke Ben Hogan, Julius Boros
1955 The Masters -9 (72-65-72-70=279) 7 strokes Ben Hogan
1949 U.S. Open +2 (75-67-69-75=286) 1 stroke Clayton Heafner, Sam Snead

Mac, great find. Did you find it on US eBay or the Oz version?

showme,

BL…NO RESPONSE IS NECESSARY

Mac,

Do promise me you will at least have three games with the Wilsons.
First to try them, second to give them a second chance, and third to give up and but them back on Ebay so I can bid on them! lol

If you keep them, don’t be afraid to pull the old shafts and put in some new steels, all matched up, spined and all.. it can really give those things a “feel lift”

The heavy older irons are really great. Look at the scores those guys shot back then on those tough tracks.. The greens were like putting across a waffle iron more often than not, and it shows how good those guys struck the golf ball, and let’s not forget the old balls they played.
65 at Augusta? That’s some golf..

You’ll gain a better appreciation for those pivot driven swings of the past, that controlled the golf ball off a shallower delivery path.

Beezneeds,

Both hitters and swingers use their pivots.. of course..

BPS a while back talked about how when he met Trevino, they discussed the function of the right arm… then at the end of the conversation, Trevino said, “of course you have to be hitting it with your body too.”

Homer said, “The mystery of golf disappears when right arm participation is understood.”

That’s a great and very wise quote there..

Bio has mentioned too that the pivots of hitters and swingers vary little on a biomechanical basis..

My pivot changes slightly visually post impact if I “swing” due mainly to the bigger oval created by the clubhead with arms slinging off the body
post impact. The bigger arc keeps the clubhead moving but slows down the pivot rotational speed slightly.

Homers 2-M-3 tells us Homer was aware of pivot driven hitters or he wouldn’t have used the word “unless” ... it’s the “unless” that in my opinion should be the rule and not the oddity for a good ball striker.

But Homer was very interested in very basic teaching of his methods and didn’t spend a lot of time really nailing down the advanced ball striking techniques that could be used. I believe he haphazardly left that up to his authorized instructors, who didn’t always get it right.
Some did, but some did not.

I’m a little more motivated to get this video up, that will hopefully clear the air on the hitting swinging thing for good… at least for my good! lol

Congratulations on breaking 100 Lag.

You make our life a breeze.

Yes Lag, Congrats on 100 pages of great golf stuff in these pages.

The question is… Can you stand another 100 pages of my mediocre skills screaming for answers?

But wait, I get the right arm question…. so I guess the riddle is solved?! Woot. Golf is sooooo easy. :-)

Congrats Lag…..I can’t take credit but am happy to admit I was first post on your 100th page !!!!
Had a great conversation with Lag today…..lots of reminiscing and talk about all kinds of topics and people we knew.
He certainly knows his stuff and I am looking forward to talking more and hopefully ingraining some ideas into my own game…
Good stuff mate…... talk to you again soon

Happy century lag; did you try any cricket in Australia.

Yes sir Lag….raise the bat like an Aussie century maker

I liked to watch Cricket a lot, and enjoyed the fact they used a wooden club as well.

I also experienced the Melbourne Cup, I called it the day the world stood still… it seemed the entire country would come to a screeching
halt! We have nothing like that here…

Well done that man and all those who have sailed in this ship:)

One Cup was enough for me … and I used to love a punt. Give me Caulfield or Moonee Valley any day (I used to own a horse called Targlish which won the race BEFORE the cup! .. that was exciting).

Birthday pressie for the thread:

Denis Lillee’s aluminium bat: (source: wikipedia)

“During a Test at the WACA Ground in December 1979 between Australia and England, Lillee went to the crease with an aluminium bat manufactured by a company owned by a personal friend. There were no rules against using such a bat, but trouble began when Lillee hit a ball that went for three runs. Australian captain Greg Chappell thought that the ball should have gone for a four, and instructed Rodney Hogg to deliver a conventional wooden bat to Lillee. As this was happening, English captain Mike Brearley complained to the umpires that the bat was damaging the ball.

“Lillee refused to change the bat. Brearley, Lillee, and the umpires held an animated discussion for almost ten minutes, before Chappell insisted that Lillee should change bats. In a fit of pique, Lillee threw “the offending lump of metal fully 40 yards towards the pavilion”[12], and grudgingly took the wooden bat. He was not disciplined by the ACB for this incident. After the game, sales of the bat skyrocketed for a few months, before the laws of the game were amended, specifying that bats had to be made from wood.”

I think Lag would like if those in charge of golf had upheld the same principle…...

Maybe someone can explain this to me now that the cricket incident was mentioned…..

Why do college baseball players use aluminum bats and yet the pros HAVE to use wooden bats?
It doesn’t make sense if you are trying to reach the top level to be using something that is not allowed to be used when you do reach that top level
With that being said I am presuming there have been many fine college players that couldn’t make the transition to the pro league because the aluminum bat made them better at hitting than they actually were…...just like we are talking about in golf, yet the governors of the game have allowed all to swing away with whatever they want…..It is too late and too far gone now to reign in but I just don’t get how the pro golf rules can’t be different to the amateur rules with regards to equipment…....I know the answer but wondered why we went down this path….answer below:

MONEY $$$$ no equipment company will sell anything if they can’t use the pros as examples of how well the club/ball plays

I think the original intentions of the metal woods were fine in the early 80’s.. Ron Chalmers whom I played with the other day, and he ran the Rifle shaft company for years gave me a pretty good history lesson on what happened.

The big problem is that the USGA and R and A, never had restrictions on the size of the clubhead. In the persimmon days, the wood itself defined some of the parameters due to it’s basic nature and density.
Bigger heads were experimented with, no gains were made do to the nature of the material. Once technology figured a few things out with high tech materials, perimeter weighting and all that, they made clubs that were within the rules at the time, and when the governing bodies tried to suddenly change the rules, or ban clubs that were otherwise legal, that’s when all hell broke loose. The companies claimed to be getting singled out, and here come the law suits. I don’t remember the name, but there was a brilliant attorney that was handling the initial cases against the USGA, and he just stuck it too them.. from that point on they just became a toothless tiger.

Had it been written in the rules back in the 50’s or 70’s that woods must be made of wood or laminate, we wouldn’t be having the problems we have now…. but nobody saw it coming.. and now we have this boring bomb and gouge golf, and that is the way the game is played.

I am almost done with my George Knudson vid, and I think it might
help some of the newer players understand how much the game has changed… and give a bit of appreciation why some of the guys in my or the “cross over” generation are looking at this whole thing with a “raised eyebrow”

Hogan wasn’t the only guy that just knocked the pin down with the old gear, there were others. Many others.

Good insight Lag…..didn’t think of the lawsuit factor that brought the rules bodies to their knees with what they could and could not put a restriction on…. Good point and comes from a source involved in the process…your Rifle shaft man Ron Chalmers..

In respect to Tiger, he plays forged blades, does he not? Probably not dissimilar to the blades of yesteryear.

If he does that, why does he do that, is it because he wants to make things harder for himself, show off, give the competition a chance or because he considers them the best tools for his business?

In respect to Tiger, he plays forged blades, does he not? Probably not dissimilar to the blades of yesteryear.

If he does that, why does he do that, is it because he wants to make things harder for himself, show off, give the competition a chance or because he considers them the best tools for his business?

I’ll leave it to Lag….it’s his thread….but I think we will answer the same way

gettingbetter,

I’m sure Lag will give his own answer. Mine is that because Tiger is a superior ball striker, he wants to be able to work the ball as much as possible. The only way to do that is with a forged blade.

I read the other day how Tiger was saying that with modern balls he cannot shape shots as much as he would like. He now relies on varying trajectory rather than shaping left or right as he did growing up.

On a related matter, a friend phoned me yesterday to say his dad had cleared out his garage and had some balls for me…

...9 Titleist Balatas! I reckon 3 will be preserved for posterity and 3 given away, but 3 will be played with soon, can’t wait!

gettingbetter,

I'm sure Lag will give his own answer. Mine is that because Tiger is a superior ball striker, he wants to be able to work the ball as much as possible. The only way to do that is with a forged blade.

I read the other day how Tiger was saying that with modern balls he cannot shape shots as much as he would like. He now relies on varying trajectory rather than shaping left or right as he did growing up.

On a related matter, a friend phoned me yesterday to say his dad had cleared out his garage and had some balls for me…

...9 Titleist Balatas! I reckon 3 will be preserved for posterity and 3 given away, but 3 will be played with soon, can't wait!

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

Spot on styles….... Tiger doesn’t need to show off….. he wants results and the ability to work the ball around to what each shot presents him….. the blade style club gives him the best opportunity to do it…... remember he also only in the past 2 years maybe just switched to graphite in his woods…always liked the control he had with steel. I think this has contributed a little to his ‘more off line’ driving in past seasons compared to his earlier years on tour…
not to worry…he’ll work out how to play and score one day !!!!!!!

Don’t forget It’s harder to hit fairways the longer you bomb it because offline hits go further offline the further it goes.It is simply harder to keep a 350 yard drive on the fairway than a 250 yard drive.

It’s not really fair to criticize Tigers driving without looking at the whole picture.Like shome said,he only switched to graphite not long ago because others were hitting it past him.Grapite is more prone to twisting than steel and its hard to control it with a 125 mph swing.Tiger was a much better driver using steel shafts.

Hogan only hit his driver 250 yards on average.If Tiger only needed to hit it that far,he would tee off with a 3 iron and hit just as many if not more fairways than Hogan.

That being said….....why have hardly any good golfers ever used graphite in their irons?.........same reason as above….. control… irons are more about accuracy and control than length…so why do amateurs use graphite in their irons??

simple answer?

length.

I love Lag’s assertion: “Irons are for accuracy, not distance”

I have never understood why any golfer that is not a beginner would care how far they hit their irons..

If another player who hits it longer than you do, looks to see what iron you hit on a par three and pulls the same club, isn’t that a good thing?
He’s going over the green maybe?

I did that in high school matches all the time.. I’d pull more club than I needed, and hit a 3/4 shot, and casually make it visible without being obvious to make sure he had access to a glance at what I hit. I was able to get several opponents more than once to fire shots well over the green on a two of the courses 3 pars.

Do you ever look into an opponent’s bag to see what they hit?
What could you learn from that really? Do you know their lofts?
How hard they hit it? How they hit it? How solid did they hit it?
Did they catch it a little heavy, thin, out on the toe? High on the face?

Your always best to play your own game..

I wasn’t thrilled with caddies giving much advice either.. usually would do more harm than good.. adding indecisiveness.

Show up on time, keep the gear clean, fix divots…
Carry the clubs, tell me the yardage, or where hidden trouble is…
that’s about it.. I stopped having them read greens for me.
I liked talking about other things, about the city, or where to eat,
or where is a good fishing spot!

gettingbetter,

When you’re on tour, you use what is the best gear to help you play your best. The big question is always what is the best gear? I would
often change gear depending on what the course was like. I had several different sand wedges depending upon the type of sand in the bunkers. I had a couple drivers, with different shafts, one was really stiff, and hard to move it left, the other was looser that I could turn over easier. If it was really windy I had a driver with 7 degrees that I could just hit about hip high over the ground. Another issue was whether to carry a 2 iron or a 4 wood. I most always would carry a 1 iron. I still use one… because it is the best driving club to use is I have to hit is very straight. I never had trouble getting the ball up, because I hit off true lowpoint, and use the full loft of the club.

So the first thing was to fit the gear to the course that week.

There are still plenty of golf courses where there is a premium on accuracy, and not distance… but the US Tour doesn’t play those kind of courses often. I can think of several courses where hitting a 323 yard drive is not going to do you much good, or would just be far too risky.

The purpose of the governing bodies of the game is to GOVERN!
To preserve the skills necessary to play the game.
To preserve the relevance of the games historical courses.

It’s quite bizarre really that the direction of a traditional game such as golf, that was invented in Scotland, (or Netherlands) would be
decided in a US Courtroom.

When did golf cease to become a game?

I just can’t wrap my head around that the purpose of the court system here in the US, having any business determining the rules of a traditional game invented in another country.

It’s the driver that has changed the game so radically. Everything revolves around that.

As far as golf being a game, and a game of tradition, and a game of skill, from that perspective, I see ZERO positives in the radical changes that have occurred.

I also think that the “long drive circuit” would benefit from a taming of the gear allowed in real golf. If the technology was only allowed to be explored in those contests, it would be much more impressive to see a guy hit a 400 yard drive if the average tour pro hits it 260. Much more “Wow” factor, and “awe”. Instead, you have that already on the tour, and you can go see Bubba or whoever, bomb it nearly as far at a tour event, which makes the long drivers less amazing relatively speaking. From what I understand, it’s Tiger, and Daly, and Bubba that draw most of the people out to the events. If that crowd that is obsessed with distance spent their money going to a long drive contest instead, I see the long drive tour only benefiting from being a diversity rather than a comparison.

If Indy cars were allowed in NASCAR races, wouldn’t that make Indy 500 a bit less interesting if you can just go out and see those cars on the stock car circuit?

Lag,

Can you explain who governs golf? Who makes the rules

I thought it was the R and A?

Lag,

Curious what you think about the British Open and the European tour in comparison to the PGA tour?

Is you concern primarily about driver technology or the layout of the courses or both?

Strikes me that if its an equipment issue, it can all be pulled back. I am sure that there are precedents in several sports. The rules of football are always being reviewed etc.

Regarding tournament golf, I guess thats a direct function of the governing body and they can choose to sanction or direct as they see fit.

Can you explain who governs golf? Who makes the rules

I thought it was the R and A?

Good question..
The USGA and the R and A have pretty much merged into the same rule and equipment book from what I understand. It used to be significantly different, and the R and A used to allow a smaller golf ball.

Because golf has changed from a “game” to a billion dollar business,
the ACTUAL ruling body is now coming from the equipment makers,
and not the governing body. The USGA and R and A had their teeth removed in the late 1980’s by Karsten Solheim of Ping, and their rockstar attorneys. Other companies then filed suits and now the governing bodies are scared of lawsuits if they make a change in an equipment rule. It’s just way out of hand.

Golf changed very little in 60 years. Sam Snead played PGA Tour events in 6 decades with blade irons and Persimmon woods, from the 1930’s into the early 1980’s. He never had to radically re tool his game to adjust to radically changing gear. Most of the great players were able to hone their skills with similar equipment throughout their entire careers.

Having to adjust to a ball that plays completely different, a driver that swings completely different than anything from the past or even the other clubs in your bag, adjusting to plastic spikes, and so forth, are radical changes. The motivation is not respect for the game, it is not tradition, nor preserving the skill of the game. The motivation is
keeping stock holders happy.

Is you concern primarily about driver technology or the layout of the courses or both?

Personally I think it’s a travesty that the modern gear has made some of the greatest tests in the world obsolete. Not every course
has the option of lengthening out. Even the ones that do are having to bastardize the original design and layout ….and of course the original intentions of the hole. A great golf course has ZERO to do with length.. A great course has a lot more to do with options, risk and reward, strategy, natural beauty and aesthetic.

The new gear also is destroying the golf swing, especially with the driver. In the past, a golfer had to at the very least swing the club with a sense of balance. The new players growing up with modern gear have little sense of balance with the driver. The huge heads actually encourage an ungodly rip at the ball that is unprecedented in the history of the game. With the smaller heads, if a player badly miss hit the club, the ball flew crooked. Now someone with virtually no skill for the game, can swing the club like a hockey stick with little if any precision, and hit drives that look like a tour pro would hit it
20 years ago their first day on a golf course.

I seriously question if the human body is meant to swing a golf club
with such reckless abandon and disregard for balance, and I think we are seeing more injuries as a result.

Curious what you think about the British Open and the European tour in comparison to the PGA tour?

I rarely watch golf for all the above reasons… I would watch golf more if I felt I was seeing something amazing… but I find the ball striking to be far below the level of when I was playing, and the scores I consider to be much worse because they are playing par 68’s every week. I refuse to accept that an average tour player hitting a 5 iron or less into a par 5 is in fact a par 5. It is a par 4.
If the hole can be reached by the average tour player in two shots,
even if that is with a fairway wood, it is a 4 par, not a 5 par.

When I see a PGA Tour event where the winner shot 16 under for the week, I consider that even par for the week compared to 20 years ago. On top of that, there are few trees, square grooves that stop the ball from rough with ease, greens that are nearly perfect pool table quality surfaces, and the overall courses are much shorter relative to distance the ball now travels. A 6800 yard course in 1978
with a ball that travels 20% farther, would have to be well over 8000 yards to be any kind of apples to apples comparison.

Players today with all this technology at their fingertips, are not impressive to me hitting 11 greens a round, and 50% of their fairways. That kind of mediocre ball striking is often capable of setting up a player to win a tour event.

The money is so huge that
the majority of players are just out there collecting checks without
any great desire or motivation to win the event on any given week, and this also encourages mediocrity. I am just not interested in
mediocrity in much of anything.

In respect to Tiger, he plays forged blades, does he not? Probably not dissimilar to the blades of yesteryear.

If he does that, why does he do that, is it because he wants to make things harder for himself, show off, give the competition a chance or because he considers them the best tools for his business?

The iron issue is nothing new…

lightweight irons were the craze in the 1930’s and mid 40’s
How do I know? I have two sets of early Bobby Jone’s sets from that era.. whippy shafts, light, and even big heads!

Then came Hogan.. heavy, stiff, and he saw a need to be filled, so after he cleaned up in 53, he started the Ben Hogan Company. I think he crafted some of the finest irons ever made, even to this day. One of my students sent me a pic of a set of beautiful Nike blades he just purchased, it was almost exactly the same design as my 69 Hogan Bounce Soles. Is it a better club? I doubt it. Nice looking iron, they both are.

40 years later, and Tiger might be using a club that for all intent and purpose is virtually the same, but we could in no way draw that comparison with the modern drivers.

This is where I think the game has gone terribly wrong for the simple fact it has removed a considerable amount of skill required to play at the championship level. Golf is now much less of a game than it once was. And that is not good for the game, in the sense of golf being first and foremost a game.

I think the ball has made alot of difference. Tell me Lag and others, what would an old Balata ball go like, when hit with the modern driver? (I have no idea, only a young…ish fella.) I think the ball has alot to do with what’s going on. Am I right? Maybe we just need a competition ball and that may assist bringing everything somewhat back into line. Or Lag’s line if you will….

dcee

I think the ball has made alot of difference. Tell me Lag and others, what would an old Balata ball go like, when hit with the modern driver? (I have no idea, only a young…ish fella.) I think the ball has alot to do with what's going on. Am I right? Maybe we just need a competition ball and that may assist bringing everything somewhat back into line. Or Lag's line if you will….

dcee

Nicklaus has been an advocate of that ‘tour ball’ for years and absolutely nothing has been done

Hey Lag,

Remember a while ago that clip of Arnie you put up? The short snippet where he talked about using old gear and having fun?

Yesterday in watching Arnie’s tournament he actually confessed to being a part of the reason the USGA has changed the groove rule. He hinted at looking at ways to slow the game down…He was saying this to the NBC crew as he carefully chose his wording….

This is good news since I already have ‘V’ grooved clubs. LOL.

I really doubt the equipment manufacturers will fight that one (for a few years until we’ve all changed) because it will sell clubs, and motivate new technology to cheat the rough.

Was having lunch with the now retired chief sports correspondent of one of the leading British Sunday papers. We had a good chinwag about all kinds of stuff. Golf related. I thought I would post a couple of stories he told me…

We discussed great golf rounds and he said that he thought that Faldo's final round of 18 pars in the driving rain at Muirfield was right up there. He interviewed Nicklaus on the Saturday which was even wetter. Nicklaus invited him to come into the changing rooms rather than use the press tent as he wanted to get out of his wet gear as quickly as possible.

To his surprise, Nicklaus had 8 or 9 gloves plastered over his chest when he removed his shirt. He asked why and Nicklaus replied that he had wrung the gloves as best he could but wanted to use his body heat to dry them out! My friend was tickled that this great and wealthy golfer would go to such great lengths to conserve his gloves!

Second story,

Ballesteros had just shot 78 at Turnberry, my friend asked Manuel, his brother and caddy what happened while waiting for Seve to record his score.

His reply was… he hit no green, he make no putt, he play terrible!

Yet Ballesteros was still gracious enough to do a 20 minute interview later so the correspondent could get a story out in time for the next day's papers. He said that many of the great golfers at that time, Nicklaus, Palmer etc were very gracious people.

Lag, you said you feel that it is the driver that has changed the game. I actually disagree and think the ball has made more of a difference.

I heard a story recently where Faldo hit old and modern balls with old and modern clubs.

The old ball went a similar distance regardless of the club, but the new ball went miles further with both.

Thought I heard a pro – Sam Torrance maybe!? – say that the new balls went nowhere with the old drivers.

Lag and Shomethamoney,

Worked a bit more on the ‘presenting the bounce’ idea that we kicked about a few days ago, with the idea of a heavy pivot driven swing with minimal arm motion and big shoulder turn as discussed by Lag.

Result, short backswing. great feeling of releasing the club, presenting the bounce offers the club up to the ball at the manufacturer’s loft with a sensation of releasing the clubhead but maintaining an even wrist angle to ensure that the club lie is parallel to the ground. Maybe even an angled hinge sort of feel?

Straight shots or a little draw, I would actually prefer a tiny fade but am delighted with the results so far.

What do you think?

If you’re happy and feeling it and seeing the results then it has to be a winner…...then I’m happy
I am glad you understand it and can do it because you have worked something out that will only benefit you more and more over time and add to the variety of shots that you will have in your arsenal.

It just sounded so crazy at the start but its the business and never any fat shots as Styles was worried about.

Before I had a real bad habit of catching my shots a bit thin, the clubhead releases this way with the full loft. Its almost like you can use the bounce to help the club land and strike the ball.

Shomethamoney, can you explain how that works even for the longer clubs?

Its like there is no forward lean on the shaft which seems counterintuitive!

Well I am sure there is some forward lean on the shaft….it just doesn’t feel like it because your swing idea has a little different feel in that you are not just bashing the leading edge into the ground…...you are trying to use the entire sole (and long irons still have bounce-albeit very little) and using the club to it’s effect.
If you didn’t still have forward lean you would probably hit them fat like Styles suggested may happen early on in the piece. He was worried you were trying to hit them fat and use the bounce, which I believe you aren’t…. If you can use the entire sole or in theory most of it, doesn’t that make more sense the ball will get to roll up and contact more of the face during the hit also? !!!!!
If that happens the ball stays on the face longer and compresses more all for more control and ability to work the ball and produce solid hits
Congrats….keep it up….even though it works and feels good I am glad you have continued to ask questions so you can understand it. It all makes sense better when you see the results

Shomethamoney,

You and Lag are so generous with your advice, thank you.

Of course I continue to ask questions, if you really understand why something works then you can be calm during the swing and reproduce time and again. But its so far off how you guys hit it, so there is still a long long way for me to go.

I only hit my driver 250 yds carry although pretty solid straight, I would love to be able to hit it 280.

And I have all the kit!

Yes, there has to be forward lean, just not very much of it, I used something called a tourstriker which has no leading edge or grooves up till about the 4th groove and I nailed the shots even with this!

One other thing, it feels like it sets your wrist angle very ‘even’.

Just a question about the lie of a golf club, it strikes me that one should play with the very flattest lie that you can handle as it would produced angled hinge and a flat or bowed left wrist and renders it almost impossible to have abent left wrist. I am sure I saw somewhere that Lag posted that Hogan played with irons that were 6 degrees flat?

better ask Lag about that….I think I read that somewhere in his posts..
remember lie angle is not address position or hand distance to the ground like many fitting systems use…... it is all about the way we deliver the club at impact….it’s lie angle at impact that is all that matters as that is what dictates the shot when we strike the ball and the turf

and I will add, proper lie angle at impact.. because most all golfers come into impact with their hands much higher than address, because their arms disconnect from their body early, and their wrists uncock to soon because they don’t have the proper hand strength, pivot rotation, and so forth..

Clubs are then fitted to these poor impact alignments and the final coffin nail is hammered into the death of their golf swing.

Flattening your lie angle on your clubs, and learning to properly swing from a flatter plane, tightens the parameters of you potential ball flight directional vectors. In other words, it’s much harder to hit a big pull or push shot from a flat plane. Hogan knew and understood this concept, and well as other flat swingers like Knudson, Player and De Vicenzo.

The flatter plane also encourages a much better pivot action fully engaging the bigger muscles of the body, and minimizes plane angle shifting… no drawbacks that I see particularly for pivot driven hitters.

Spot on….since we have spoken Lag I see that and understand it more and more…thanks…..wanted to hear you explain it because you do a better job at that than me…. good stuff and I love it…It makes perfect sense

Hogan was the ultimate perfectionist…he had a reason for everything that he did.

Lag knows why and what he did.

The question is how flat should you go? A bit more than feels comfortable right now, six degrees flat?

One the groove issue,

As I understand it, loft is what puts the majority of spin on the ball, and you can still spin a ball quite well with a grooveless club.

Guru, you know about this right? Didn’t Homer do some studies on this back in the early 70’s?

The square grooves give more area for the grass to go into the face (into the box area) which keeps moisture from getting trapped in between the ball and the metal on the face which creates the classic low spin “flyer”

The textured face wedges out now, I have never hit one but someone here reported how they can actually lacerate a modern ball just by hitting in off the fairway?

I vote for going back to fish scales on the clubface..!

lol

Hogan was not a particularly short man and yet he played with 6 degrees flat.

I am pretty sure thats what was said but wait for Lag to confirm.

Lag, the groove-less spinning club is an urban myth that Wishon admitted doesn’t work.

I don’t claim to have direct and personal knowledge as to Hogan’s specs, but from the research I have done it keeps coming back to this figure, and anyone can measure the angles too with a basic protractor off old photos or films.. very flat, and so was George Knudson.
and that all confirms it too..

Hogan was not tall either, I believe he was about 5’8.

Now let’s talk about fish scales!

I have an incomplete set of these beauties!

here is the 8 iron!

maybe the patent has run out…
time to re apply?

All it would take is one guy to win out tour and we could start
a new craze…

Styles,

are they saying a club with no grooves puts no spin on the ball at all?
I find that hard to believe,

maybe less…

what is the crux of the study?

LP,

can’t remember if it was on here or LBG, but yeah, they actually made a groove-less club and tried it out and it didn’t perform they way they thought it would have. In other words, grooves are essential for a club to work.

I also find that hard to believe Styles, friction being what it is and all! :o)

no grooves exposed

This was where I read about it Lag

Styles,

are they saying a club with no grooves puts no spin on the ball at all?
I find that hard to believe,

maybe less…

what is the crux of the study?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I know one of my friends growing up…he had a sand iron he loved and the face was really worn out and had the grooves worn well done and he could spin the crap out it…in fact he complained it spun too much sometimes? Who knows….I am sure some type is groove or fish scale pattern would be needed to get the ball to work up the face

What I find so frustrating about all these scientific questions that pop up is that many could so easily be solved once and for all with a swing robot and a Trackman. The problem is only club manufacturers have the cash to afford such and they’ll publish whatever sells their latest con.

Cochran did some tests way back with a pro, finding a grooved 7-iron came off averaging 7380rpm, a completely smooth 7-iron at 7260rpm – the difference meaningless (off good lies).

The USGA did similar tests, finding equivalent backspin rates could be achieved from either club, however the grooved one more consistently.

I’d just like to see modern tests, with wedges, off fairways. We know racing cars use grooveless tires for max grip, we know pro ping pong players use smooth paddles for maximum spin. But they still have some roughness to them and aren’t identical situations to golf.

Styles,

are they saying a club with no grooves puts no spin on the ball at all?
I find that hard to believe,

maybe less…

what is the crux of the study?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I know one of my friends growing up…he had a sand iron he loved and the face was really worn out and had the grooves worn well done and he could spin the crap out it…in fact he complained it spun too much sometimes? Who knows….I am sure some type is groove or fish scale pattern would be needed to get the ball to work up the face

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

WORK THE BALL UP THE FACE

Is that what you are supposed to do? Never really thought abou it like that!

Styles,

are they saying a club with no grooves puts no spin on the ball at all?
I find that hard to believe,

maybe less…

what is the crux of the study?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I know one of my friends growing up…he had a sand iron he loved and the face was really worn out and had the grooves worn well done and he could spin the crap out it…in fact he complained it spun too much sometimes? Who knows….I am sure some type is groove or fish scale pattern would be needed to get the ball to work up the face

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

WORK THE BALL UP THE FACE

Is that what you are supposed to do? Never really thought abou it like that!

The 6-degrees flat Hogan had, I’ve heard AJ Bonar once mention that standard lies were indeed 5 degrees flatter back in those days. Another regressive change in modern clubs?

gettingbetter
That’s why we seem to have better feel and shaping with our irons…. the ball can work up the face and up the grooves and get spin and trajectory….it gives us control
Take a look at your “new” techno driver face…..Most have hardly any lines on them at all. The ball has nothing to work with. It just jumps off the face at a million miles an hour with no control in an all out effort to go as far as it can with little regard to how much you want to control it…. True?

Not to get off track, but when they say 6 degrees flat…. 6 degrees flat from what angle? Is there a standard degree (in lie) for every club? I wouldn’t have thought so. And do you flatten it right across the range? I wouldn’t have thought so? Thoughts???

dcee

gettingbetter
That's why we seem to have better feel and shaping with our irons…. the ball can work up the face and up the grooves and get spin and trajectory….it gives us control
Take a look at your ’Äúnew” techno driver face…..Most have hardly any lines on them at all. The ball has nothing to work with. It just jumps off the face at a million miles an hour with no control in an all out effort to go as far as it can with little regard to how much you want to control it…. True?

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

First of all, you don’t seem to, you do!

The ball doesn;t go that far for me even with these new drivers, like I say only 250 carry and actually I dont miss that many fairways although that is clearly a function of how short I hit it!

Getting back to forward lean, the less forward lean, the easier to work the ball up the grooves?

The better you ‘present the bounce’ the more chance of doing this?

On lie angle…

I know for a fact since working with Lag, I have had my lie angles dropped 3 degrees in 4 months. I had been 2* up from standard last November.

And now I’m seriously considering getting them dropped another 2 degrees, which would total a 5 degree drop. That’s a pretty insane change in 5 months total if you ask me (not that anyone would).

And I test this with lie board and tape all the time. It’s not a coincidence though…it’s a part of the process. That’s a degree a month! :)

Answer to gettingbetter from prev page
In my opinion yes….and from your experience so far you would say yes too?
Clubs have been made throughout the years to help us and not hinder us…if you know what you are trying to do and use them how they were originally intended to be used ….well you have solved a part of the puzzle that few understand
Most think their clubs are out to get them….but the person who ‘gets it’.... can play with anything

Hey Lag, I got some HG blades about a month ago and had some work done to them to suit me. I took them out today for the first time and wow, I can see what you guys are on about. I think i learned more today about my swing than I have in ages, the feel back through my hands was amazing. Of course my bad shots were, well, bad as, but the good ones were incredible, such a good ball flight and control, I’m sold, don’t see my HC dropping immediately but I feel so much more involved in the game, like taking a condom off!!
I’ll keep my eyes out for some older woods and driver too now, bring it on.

I’ve had too much experience on tour to be completely in love with super high spin rates…

The bottom line is this…

I love grooves and lots of spin when my ball lands past the hole.

When my ball lands short of the hole I despise grooves, spin, and high trajectories!

Guru,

can you jump in here and give us your thoughts on grooves on clubs,
Seems a few people here would like some more scientific answers..
any brainiacs what to jump in with the gory details?

I have a few worn out sets that basically are grooveless, and I can spin it just fine off the fairway.. I just see the grooves being significant out of the rough from experience..

Hey Lag,
I was flicking thru Steve Elkington book-Five Fundamentals and had to share a couple of insights that were printed in it…Just For You

”......Elkington hates soft spikes. In fact he is a fierce traditionalist in everything related to golf, which, ironically, makes him something of an iconoclast. Elkington also says for eg “Most of today’s golf clubs are the worst ever made”..And..”Golf instruction today has no meat, no overriding theme. It’s all faults and fixes, which is absolute rubbish.”.. And..”The influx of new players to golf is a problem, because so many of them have no education about golf”

Good points and something he still takes those thoughts to heart even though this book is now 10 years old…........Elk has no manufacturers name on his clothes, hat or bag….so he obviously wants to play with more traditional equipment that gives him the greatest benefits

Here’s a couple more quotes from the book that I found interesting.. and this is all only from the first chapter!

“Of the one hundred or so instruction books in his library, Elkington returns again and again to only TWO books, both of them golden oldies: Five Lessons by Ben Hogan (1957) and Sam Snead on Golf (1961).. The old masters have the most credence with Elkington: he’s found that middling practitioners tend to make an academic exercise out of golf, focusing on the frozen images from a high speed camera and claiming great insight from the dissection.. “The swing is a continuous flow of movement, and we destroy it’s continuous character if we divide it arbitrarily”......

His mentor Jackie Burke chimes in….”Elk’s strength is that he is one of the few guys who play golf as a game:....He works the ball. He’s got imagination and adaptability”

Excellent words of advice all around. Looking forward to reading the entire book

Didn’t the Elk drop out of US Open qualifying a few years back because they insisted he play with soft spikes?

Didn't the Elk drop out of US Open qualifying a few years back because they insisted he play with soft spikes?

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

Wouldn’t surprise me if he did….don’t remember it though

http://www.smh.com.au/news/...

Correct Styles…....see link above

It’s nice to see a guy like Elk, stick up for something for a change, I always admired that about Mac O’Grady too.

However, there’s a lot of hush money out on tour.

I never knew anyone that was under contract for the spikes they wore in their shoes, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that happens now. I’ve been off tour for quite a while.

There have been studies that show metal spike are actually good for the greens, like punching them.

Anyone that has worked with me and got into my “second” lesson knows how adamant I am about understanding, applying and utilizing both vertical and horizontal ground forces. Banning metal spikes is another reason the golf swing continues to degrade and deteriorate right along with lightweight clubs and perimeter weighting.

Elk and I came from the same graduating class…

GO!! Class of 85!!

’ÄúThe swing is a continuous flow of movement, and we destroy it's continuous character if we divide it arbitrarily”.

That’s some sound advice there..

One of the biggest mortal sins in training the golf swing I believe, is to abort the swing once you have initiated a movement.

All swings or drills must be either dumped, driven or swung into either the finish or a point of resistance such as an impact bag, so the body continues to fire the muscles in proper sequence with complete conviction.

I cringe when I see players or teachers moving back and forth from the top of the swing down to P3 then back up without completing the motion. Why would you ever want to suggest to your muscles that they should stop and change direction on the downswing? It’s insanity if you think about it.

Master Hitter George Knudson

DO WATCH THIS VIDEO!

I posted this as a separate thread for those who don’t visit this one.

I hope this is a wake up call for some, and maybe give some clarity as to why some of us feel the way we do about the direction the game has taken.

I find it quite impressive that a human can control a golf ball with such precision, and I would think that upon viewing such a display of ball striking mastery, it would open up some eyes, and put forth a few questions about golf, the swing, and equipment.

We don’t see this kind of masterful ball striking, even with all the new gear…. so when I say the golf swing has deteriorated I mean it.

I find it interesting how 3 time Masters champion Jimmy Demaret acknowledges Knudson as being “one of the finest hitters of a golf ball” even before they tee off. It was well known Knudson was one of the best if not the best pure strikers of his era which included Nicklaus and Palmer. He had a reputation as a very poor putter. Nicklaus once said “Knudson?, oh, the guy with the million dollar golf swing and a 10 cent putting stroke.” In this round he shot 67 with 3 three putts.

Had he had a good day with the wand, it could have been a 60 or 61 easy, and that is putting on waffle iron greens by today’s standards.

So am I disappointed when I see our modern million dollar babies missing greens with an 8 iron off a perfect lie from the center of the fairway?

Yes indeed.

I

Hi Lag,

Thanks so much for posting the George Knudson video. Just amazing stuff.

Some things that stuck out to me – I’d be interested in comments from you and others:

- His tempo is quite fast – reminds me a little of Olazabal in the way he is quick back and through. Does this aid his stressing of the shaft on the downswing?

- He seems to play the shot and “keep walking” after he’s hit it. Gives the feeling of really playing the game as a walking pastime.

I’m sure there will be other observations. Fantastic footage!

Cheers

Wow, compared to today’s guys on tour, he looks like a half open pocket knife!
He really wouldn’t much lower to go if he was to hit off his knees.
I kept looking in disbelief at how low his club was at address.
It would feel like a baseball swing if I were to try that!
You got any ideas on the lie of those clubs? 12 degrees flat ;).
Well, seems to look flatter than Hogan to me.

Good points and something he still takes those thoughts to heart even though this book is now 10 years old…….....Elk has no manufacturers name on his clothes, hat or bag….so he obviously wants to play with more traditional equipment that gives him the greatest benefits

ELK was a Titleist guy forever..not sure now.

LAG,

I never knew anyone that was under contract for the spikes they wore in their shoes, but I wouldn't be surprised if that happens now. I've been off tour for quite a while.

There have been studies that show metal spike are actually good for the greens, like punching them.

There is not a spike rule on the PGA, or Nationwide Tour when they come in town. The guys have the option. If you play the second stage of US Open qualifier at a “tour stop” metal spikes can be worn. I use them for more comfort but miss the click of metal.

Guru,

can you jump in here and give us your thoughts on grooves on clubs,
Seems a few people here would like some more scientific answers..
any brainiacs what to jump in with the gory details?

I have a few worn out sets that basically are grooveless, and I can spin it just fine off the fairway.. I just see the grooves being significant out of the rough from experience..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

In short, loft is the main source of launch/spin.
Second comes the face roughness.
Third the grove types.

Hence some of the rules changes over the years on the latter two, especially where the ball sits in the rough.

Good points and something he still takes those thoughts to heart even though this book is now 10 years old………..Elk has no manufacturers name on his clothes, hat or bag….so he obviously wants to play with more traditional equipment that gives him the greatest benefits

ELK was a Titleist guy forever..not sure now.

Sure he may well still use his old Titleist clubs….used to use the old Taylor Made woods too…..but he has no logo on bag or shirts so he is advertising for no-one. Doesn’t even use headcovers on his woods.. and on his hat he has a picture of an Elk….just like his own name…. that he may use as his own brand (like the golden bear or arnie’s umbrella) or just for fun he got some put on some hats

SHOWME,

Payne Stewart once told me he did that ( no brand name on bag, etc) to let everyone know he was up for sale, and in the market. He went to Edwin Watts and bought yes bought ” the ugliest plain bag i can find” and used it in ATT and in a few weeks inked a deal with Lynx. Classic Payne

Wow, compared to today's guys on tour, he looks like a half open pocket knife!
He really wouldn't much lower to go if he was to hit off his knees.
I kept looking in disbelief at how low his club was at address.
It would feel like a baseball swing if I were to try that!
You got any ideas on the lie of those clubs? 12 degrees flat ;).
Well, seems to look flatter than Hogan to me.

SHOWME,

Payne Stewart once told me he did that ( no brand name on bag, etc) to let everyone know he was up for sale, and in the market. He went to Edwin Watts and bought yes bought ” the ugliest plain bag i can find” and used it in ATT and in a few weeks inked a deal with Lynx. Classic Payne

I don’t think Elk is too interested in the money…. he could wipe his rear with $100’s for the rest of his life and be fine…...he could easily have a deal in place if it interested him….he is using the same old stuff but not contractually tying himself down to X number of clubs etc and having to be forced to use the latest and greatest thing each company brings out

We want to win for the win..but all played to make money. don’t kid yourself, the private lease jets are expensive, money talks

SHOWME,

Not sure what elk has in the sack nowadays, most deals, are at least all 9-11 irons, or the best would be a head to toe deal. I am sure you knew that. unless you did not go for the money!

Elk has been blank for close to 2 years…. money isn’t talking to him. He’s one of the few that money doesn’t talk to…I guess
I myself played golf because I loved it…....not for the money. So either I am not the norm or everyone else including you are playing for the wrong reasons.
I love Elk because of that….he doesn’t give a hoot, he just wants to play the game

Why did he rep all the allergy stuff???!!! FOR THE MONEY

Nothing wrong for the love of the game, but the money is intriguing for playing what you enjoy. if the purses where 100,000 a week no one would play for a living.

Why do the super stars all come to the states? for the 4-5 million dollar purses of course. If they just played for the love, they would all stay in Euro land wouldn’t you say? Personally wish they would stay..solid players !!

Most europeans do stay in Europe…... hardly any come over to America year round full time except a couple that came here for college and married Americans and stayed in the US to set up base because of that.
They play in Europe and get their under the table $$ and are kings of their castle over there and then still get to compete in the majors and the WGC events in the US and get their US fix….because they hold their high world ranking by playing in Europe.
Australians initially all went to Europe because that was the logical step seeing all the predecessors went there and everyone followed suit
Now with TV showing every US tournament everywhere around the world people know more about US golf and try it straight away and skip Europe.
Australians play in US because it is more like Australia than Europe and you use your passport once to get into the country and travel for months or for the year without getting it stamped again. In Europe you get your passport stamped twice a week going in and out of different countries with different currencies and languages…and it’s a pain in the butt…...it’s not all about the $$$

Nothing wrong for the love of the game, but the money is intriguing for playing what you enjoy. if the purses where 100,000 a week no one would play for a living.

that’s all we used to play for starting out…...I didn’t have a problem with it. I won one of those and thought I was the richest guy in the world…..who cares …. I played well and just happened to win, but play well and enjoy it, that was all I was trying to do…. not cash a cheque
The Nationwide Tour hands out peanuts at the end of each week too but people play it…finish outside the top 10 in one of those events and you lose money for the week….yet some guys have played it for years on end

rt1….. I try to give you honest thoughtful insightful answers and questions…..yet you just try stick a needle in….for what reason?
I am not an idiot…I try to give insight. I try to answer how joe public may like to hear what happens in another golfing world far away from their saturday comps and chook runs on a thursday night
I know you must teach S/T and therefore don’t want me bagging it because of the $$$ affect it may have on you but give me a break man….
I played the tour for 20 years …I probably flogged you to death if our paths ever actually crossed….I don’t need to be given grief by someone like you who obviously seems more talk and no action. I have read your posts and the insight content is zero
So let me pass on some little thing to some people who ask questions and are interested…... Cool?

Hi, Guys, I’m new on here- I found this through Lag’s youtube site. You seem to think some good thoughts about the game. I’ve played a lot, some college and pro stuff, and have some thoughts about the swing that I’d love to get some thoughts on. Lag, has anyone seen the swing through the concept of whether it is performed as a backhand motion or a forehand motion? It seems to me that they both require significantly different movements from the body. I have thoughts on this, but wondered if you had…. I’ll share if anyone is interested

I’ve always had the perception that the US PGA tour was the top tour where the worlds best go. Not taking anything from the European and Asian tours etc but I just think when you are playing sport at the top level, you want to put yourself up against the best. And if I’m right about the US tour being the best, then most would try and get on that tour to challenge themselves.
A thought….

dcee

I believe the college system in the US creates a really high quality, solid base of players who have no real interest in traveling beyond US borders. This, I reckon, is the pool that the US tour is built out of.
Over the last 10 or 15 years, a lot more Europeans have taken up scholarships here, opening them up to the option of this tour, further increasing the quality here, and possibly diminishing it over there. You then add the money here and it all becomes more attractive.
But what’s interesting now with the economic situation as it is, the only reliable money seems to be in the middle east- believe it or not. As a result, this race to Dubai is already attracting big names like Anthony Kim, Phil Mickelson etc., who ordinarily would have zero interest in going over there. It’s funny to hear them say that it’s great to make golf more global but this is easily translated into.. they give me money, I go!!
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next 4-5 years as regards a more world based tour as a result of the diminishing funds here in the US.
Watching golf on TV here it’s already apparent that it’s over saturated with marketing and advertising- the powers that be in the PGA Tour are clearly on the back foot with money, and the advertisers seem to be well aware of it. It seems that there’s nothing left that isn’t ‘brought to you by’. It’s awful stuff…

Hey Bomgolf, I’m certainly interested in reading your thoughts on backhand and forehand golf. Sounds potentially like hitting/swinging but I’m a novice so would love to see what you have to say.

People have different motivations for playing golf.. some love the game, others play for the money only.. some guys don’t like traveling..

I played for the game itself, and the only reason I turned pro was to be able to commit more time to playing golf after school was over… and I had a nice line on some sponsors who felt I deserved to be out there, and that is was good for the community to have a local player the papers could write about or follow..

Billy Dunk didn’t like traveling all that much but was plenty good enough to play anywhere he desired… There are some that think when he was on, he was nearly untouchable.

Peter Senior for some reason never made the US Tour his home. Good enough.. but just preferred other places..

I liked playing in Australia much more than playing the Nationwide, or Hogan Tour, and I never cared for TPC style over bulldozed stadium courses.

Some golfers are like some musicians.. why did Steve Hackett leave Genesis? Wakeman leaving YES? They didn’t like the pop direction the music was going. Simple.

Some guys realize you can’t pull it into the grave with you.. others never get that concept.

Lag, SMTM, BG222 and other pros, I would like to hear what you say about this thought of mine….Surely all pro’s at that higher level, with money already in the bank, play because they love the game. Or maybe not so much the love of the game but the challenge that it presents.
I always had a perception that players of that high calibre, have a great drive to win. To prove to themselves they are good enough.
I would never think the top 100 or 200 are JUST playing for the money. (Sure it’s great) but don’t they play for pride, the challenge, to be number 1 etc etc. I can’t see Tiger saying, you know what I’ve got 1 billion in the bank, I’ll stop now. He will do it some time, but he still thinks of the records etc etc

Thanks in advance

dcee

At some point the money will not be what it is…
Once Tiger holes his last putt, the purses will shrink considerably.

Golf is a tough game, and I think it is great that GREAT players are rewarded for their hard work and proficiency in the game.

I don’t think it’s great to see the mediocrity of the ball striking and rewarding that with huge money.

Let’s get back on this topic..

George Knudson

Do people not realize that the games best strikers used to hit it like this? Isn’t this more interesting to watch than a guy getting up and down with a 64 degree wedge all day and sinking every 20 footer on heavenly greens that the public never plays on?

Why not study the great swings of Hogan and George to get better, rather than try to purchase your golf game in a pro shop?

Is this a good enough example or do I need to pull another rabbit from the hat..?

DC,

There are plenty of guys out there just playing for the money and not really driven to win..

If these guys were playing for titles there would be a lot of very unhappy golfers out there.. For example, one of my college teammates has won like 12 million dollars out there over the years..
but when he holes his last putt and goes home, he’ll be lucky to be even recognizable in his hometown walking around. One win in 15 years.. is he miserable? If he is playing for trophies, he better be.
However, I doubt he gives it any thought at all. No motivation.

We know Tiger is out there to win, but you won’t see that kind of passion to excel from most of the guys out there.. if you did, you’d see them grinding a lot harder and doing whatever it took to play great golf..

One of the reasons I always respected the Europeans is they really understood the value of learning to play golf on a variety of conditions, soils and continents. Golf is not just American Golf.. ask Peter Thomson.

BOMGOLF222,

welcome,

would love to hear your theories on the swing.. that’s really what this thread is based upon…

Lag Pressure,

Thanks for the response(s). You make alot of sense.
I also like this comment,
“Isn't this more interesting to watch than a guy getting up and down with a 64 degree wedge all day and sinking every 20 footer on heavenly greens that the public never plays on?”
I found it funny watching that old footage and seeing all the fans standing right on the greens edge. They couldn’t do that today. No way. And I too would much rather see someone hitting it close from 200 than see the short game display. Don’t get me wrong, short game has it’s merits and good for those that excel at it, but I agree, I’d much see shot shapers and GIR hitters. More interesting, more noteworthy.

dcee

Thanks for the welcomes, Guys. The topics come hot and heavy here, I like it- lots to think about. As regards Lag’s thoughts on striking, I couldn’t agree more about the beauty of a well struck shot. I don’t want to sound like an old fogey, and I guess I’m really not, but technology in drivers and balls has destroyed any advantage that a pure striker had over the lesser able. Even look at how Tiger has been eclipsed since he’s been out there. He came out when the wound ball was still in use, and the driver face technology wasn’t around- and he was miles ahead of everyone! Now he’s just another guy in terms of length. I do think the things he seems to be working on with Haney are literally making it as hard as it can possibly be for him(makes me wonder if Haney is taking handfuls under the table from the rest of the tour;) But that’s another topic….
The other consequence I think of the driver tech is that most of the swing technique developments have been for a more sweeping strike in order to hit the driver farther- this may speak to you, Lag, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on it. I think, as a result of the new huge headed drivers and most people just wanting to hit it miles, that most teaching is aimed towards that, and a proper decent through the strike zone has all but been eliminated from the thinking. Not good good for beautiful striking! Any thoughts on that anyone? It’s been a thought of mine for a while…..
As far as money in golf goes, people want, and have to make a living, so it’s tough to expect anyone not to have that as part of their thinking. If anyone is free from it, it’s Tiger, but he’s still taking approx $3million to go play in Australia at the end of the year! That’s not out of the love of the game for sure. Can you blame him? I don’t know.. maybe… I’m sure he has his reasons with his foundation etc, so who knows. I do think that great players are driven beyond the money, but great players are few and far between. There are lots of really good players for sure, but the great names stick out over time. You could argue that Byron Nelson played for money- until he built his ranch and then retired, so it’s tough to judge motivation in whatever form it comes.

I have lots of thoughts on the swing, but to get the gist of the backhand vs. forehand idea down… actually, having read through some of the posts, Stinkler, there does seem to be a connection between hitting and swinging and this thought. Though I would say that I question whether or not anyone is fully either one of them. You could probably break down Hogan’s swing and give plenty of good examples as to why he is both a swinger and a hitter. The reality is that there are two sides to the body, and just like when you’re walking, one arm kind of pushes forward while the other one pulls back behind. Both of these things take place under the definition of walking. So when you swing the club, technically, both things take place. I do believe that there can be a dominant side, and that’s where the backhand forehand idea came to me. I’ve played a lot of tennis, and when I study the swing I look to every sport and movement to see how the body wants to act in it’s natural condition. I really do think that the body must obey natural physical laws first and foremost, and then see how they work within the framework of the set up and swing.
Anyway, briefly- you can check these things out yourselves on youtube or google images, but in a basic forehand motion in tennis, the weight is rooted in the rear side for most of the shot, with the body opening considerably through the shot(presumably to give access to the side that will be hitting the ball). In the basic one handed backhand motion, it’s a much more linear action, with the lead foot planted solidly and the body significantly squarer to the target line with a very passive rear side, while the upper lead side pulls and accelerates away from that plant. Taking this to golf, it kind of explains how some players are more in line at impact, with a more elongated, maybe higher finish, while others are extremely open with a more rounded finish. And would have significant consequences, I think, in how you might teach someone depending on which side they predominantly use to swing the club. Having experimented with both, I’m almost certainly of the opinion that golf should be guided predominantly as a backhanded motion, or a lead side generated motion. It seems to allow the club to spend a much longer time closer to the target line( though never straight) As opposed to opening up really quickly to expose the rear side to the ball and being kind of flashy through impact.
Anyway, that’s a brief version of that thought for now. It’s kind of late here so I hope it makes sense. I’d love to get some feedback or thoughts about it. I look forward to getting into some more thoughts with you guys…
B

Stinkler

good stuff.. glad you are learning…

st_hubbins

What does a fast tempo do? It creates CF it creates more CP
and it just flat out puts more feel in your hands..

Golf is a game of feel right? The faster you swing, the more feel you put in your hands,

Now this is simple and yet complex.. you can only go fast if your lines are proper, and your pivot and hands are moving in proper sequence.
I teach full speed… right from day one. I would rather have a student do a 1/8 swing rudiment at full speed or greater into an impact bag, than a slow motion drill that reeks of laziness and disconnection.

A fast swing is realistic of a real golf swing. I think a fast tempo wins in everyway.. even the mental game. It trains the muscles better,
and keeps the swing together.

Knudson, Hogan, Trevino, Moe, De Vicenzo, Watson, even Tiger..
brisk tempos..

So that quicker tempo does a lot, and to stress the shaft properly
we need quick.. particularly if you’re a pivot driven hitter.

Let’s not forget walking… if you haven’t walked the game in a while, have a go at it.. even for nine holes.. You could see how George would use walking to keep his whole rhythm and shot making just flowing..

great stuff..

Steb,

You’re an analytical guy,
What are you coming up with for Knudson’s lie angles?

I am seeing he is right on Hogan’s…
I think he was taller.. but he used knee bend to drop
his center of gravity down so he could take advantage of what
a shallower plane has to offer a more sophisticated ball striker.

Fast, but not rushed?

BOMGOLF222,

thanks, nice insightful observations..

The hitting vs swinging thing is a real reality.. and I am a big believer
that you should work into one or the other idealisms..

I think of it really as two extremes of a Rainbow…
A pot of gold at each end, but the middle ground is full of too many colors or psychedelic confusion.

I’ll be posting a video soon of my take on hitting vs swinging from experience and years as a student of TGM and then exploring the difference in how to create these two protocols so that they can work under the heat of competition..

can you push and pull at the same time?

the debate rages on!

of course you have to have the strength and structure to be able to handle the speed…

You CAN’T swing faster than you can handle..

I’m thinking maybe it’s like how far your back swing is, feel is not real? If you swing with a measured feel it could be quite quick? Like if you swing half way back it’s more like 3/4?
I know if I swing too slow it’s crap, but too fast then well, you suggest I’m not strong enough or structured in the right spots. The main thing I’m really working on is just to find that groove in my swing, back through, simple. The bag is helping this. I liked what Dart said when he talked of hearing the woosh on the back swing too, along these lines I think?

So Lag, how do explain the quality of shots played by a “slow swinger” like Els? Or is his tempo so fluid it is just an optical illusion and he is like a swan – graceful on top but all is rapid movement below the surface?

Els, Furyk, Couples, these are guys with complicated backswings.
I call these guys “pocket” players because they depend to a great degree on what happens at transition. Everything needs to be just perfect up there so they can line everything up, and glide everything down right in the pocket.

I know, I used to swing like that..

These guys tend to be streaky ball strikers, more inconsistent, but often very good putters. Slow heavy hands work well on quick paced tour greens.

Long flowing backswing work great as long as you have the patience to gradually accelerate and not get quick or hit at it early. It’s usually a fight against the “hit” impulse. Concentration, a lot of mental discipline,
all that can do wonders and make it work quite nicely..

Not everyone has the mind of Nicklaus..

Furyk, actually has a hitters release which I find quite interesting.
I can see why he hits the ball so straight..

Swinging versus Hitting? Ah we have come full circle… The debate will always rage on won’t it lag?

Can you push and pull at the same time? YES, well not at the same time but you can effectively utilise both but is it the left hand that is pulling or is it simply pushing backwards?

I know most of you say it’s one or the other, that you either swing with the left or hit with the right, but I firmly believe that I was given two hands for a reason and I certainly know that I use both when I swing my driver!

There are a myriad of options available, can you use a swingers body motion and supply the hitters right hand action?

I actually really like BOMs analogy with a forehand, backhand concept… why then can’t we use a double fisted backhand model also? Commonly known as switting in TGM circles… It is also important to consider how many hinges and levers you can utilise in the golf swing.. Can we indeed use a double wrist hinge effectively and double levering on the left and right side of our body? I certainly believe this to be true…

If you believe I could create a 153mph clubhead speed reading only using either left or right and not maximising both I would question your sanity. The current World LD Champion certainly uses both sides effectively (interesting that he shoots a hockey puck left handed and hits a golf ball right handed… Hmmm someone strong on both sides of the body? Can that be used in the golf swing?) And dont rag on this guy as a LDer only, I think he has a more technically sound swing than many of the tour professionals going around… And he plays off scratch!

http://www.pinnaclegolfblog...

And let’s not get into the Multiple Firing Theory (MFT) that the body can be fired multiple times during the swing using short stretch cycles and varying body motions…

Just because you have not personally experienced something does not make it impossible or non existant! Advancement in hinging, levering and body motion patterns is far more advanced then what has been currently seen in modern or post modern era golf. Very soon you will see someone with a “new” golf swing concept taking golf to a whole new level… It will just take courage to break away from the limiting beliefs of what is actually possible!

But what do I know I am only a long driver and technique plays NO part in what we do – Well if you believe what you read around here it doesnt.

Jnior
I dont write often here but follow the posts several times a day. I agree with you that you can generate that kind of speed using switting. This is a useful goal for LD cos your smashng a large head with a ball teed up quite a bit and you have 6 swings to get one right. It will be adifferent matter if at the same time you had to hit one ball of grass with a blade 3 iron and had only one swing. And then the distances were avereged for the scoring. If that becomes a reality you can borrow my 1950s Wilsons.

Damn they’re pretty!!

Macs – what’s up with those clubs? Were they cryogenically frozen back in the 1950s and thawed yesterday? They look like they’ve never been hit.

Perhaps you got them refinished? If so, where if you don’t mind me asking.

Beautiful sticks!!

Can you push and pull at the same time?

I think so, but only actively with one of them. I do believe that the backhand is the best way to swing the club, but the question then is what to do with the rear side. I think you can use it as a swinging weight, kind of along the lines of the weight behind impact theory of the 2ball putters and other clubs. If it’s passive and soft, and heavy feeling both in the backswing and the down and through swing, it’s fully under the control of gravity, and I think you can harness that falling energy and channel it into the cub head. The other aspect of this type of backswing is that it’s quite short and compact since it’s all built out of the width and distance created by the left arm(for righties, that is) which, by itself, doesn’t go back that far. But it creates a very torqued coil into the rear leg. An interesting aside is that I think the ‘up’ or second part of the standard backswing is a product of the right or rear arm and side, and the falling back down onto plane that is so often prescribed is just a reconnection of this action which may not be necessary in the first place. This may be stating the obvious, but it’s interesting to see it as an action of that right arm. This may speak to the 1planers in a way, but I just don’t buy into that concept. I do think the swing should ideally feel like one motion, without a lifting and dropping, but the left arm/shoulder plane goal is arbitrary as far as I’m concerned. (That’s like the timing thing you talk about a lot, Lag. I agree, it’s an unnecessary and unreliable move I think. I’m seeing some connection between what I see as a backhand and how you describe hitting)
If the rear side is passive and soft, as the club is led downward with the lead side in the manner of the backhand, then the falling weight of the rear torso, shoulder, arm, and hand becomes a weight that pushes, but not actively. It’s working according to gravity as a weight that’s falling naturally both down and around on the plane of the spine, to become a pushing weight that operates freely as the lead side pulls and flings the club like hell through impact! Any thoughts?
I agree with Junior about utilizing both sides, and maybe once you train them, they can be both actively used- I’m not at that stage yet as I’ve spent my whole career with the club in my right hand, so I’m still training the lead side. But from the moment I started doing this stuff in earnest, it was night and day in terms of strength of flight, and balance.
I’m assuming you’re talking about Jamie Sadlowski? What an animal! And close to perfect golf swing. He has some very interesting aspects to his swing too that I reckon can be learned from and utilized. I could talk on about him for days!
Can someone who knows about switting describe it to me if you get a chance?
Cheers….

SHOWME

The Nationwide Tour hands out peanuts at the end of each week too but people play it…finish outside the top 10 in one of those events and you lose money for the week….yet some guys have played it for years on end

More incorrect than correct. The purses are usually over 600k us and 3 are 1 million. Wasn’t too long ago( pre tiger ) and that what the big tour was playing for you can get decent endorsement contracts on that tour and eventually you will have to go through that tour to go to the PGA Tour I believe. You will see them take the top 50 from the Nationwide money list instead of twenty- five. I has been discussed by the PAC.

Last year top ten made over 300k..not great but a nice living if you factor in bonuses and not as expensive as the show.

showme

I played the tour for 20 years …I probably flogged you to death if our paths ever actually crossed….I don't need to be given grief by someone like you who obviously seems more talk and no action. I have read your posts and the insight content is zero

Not likely of you flogging me ..at least all the time. I respect your opinion, but go on the defensive when you lash out and refuse to have intellegent disputes about anything. Why do think your flogging anyone is relevant to dicussions about the golf swing ? Nobody cares…whether you or me or anyone can beat anyone else. simply amazing to me where you are going with that. Keep it professional, I am not giving you grief, just anytime we disagree, you go off the deep end. Sorry to see that..

Bye the way, your opinion will not do anything to me financially.( again another example inflated self opinion )

Steb,

You're an analytical guy,
What are you coming up with for Knudson's lie angles?

I am seeing he is right on Hogan's…
I think he was taller.. but he used knee bend to drop
his center of gravity down so he could take advantage of what
a shallower plane has to offer a more sophisticated ball striker.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Impossible to say – the only clear pictures are at address. He could easily have the toe 10¬ƒ up without looking like Aoki.

Like from the 6-iron at address 5 mins into the vid, the club angle is 44¬ƒ. Compensating for the camera position, the target line and forward leaning shaft at address, it’s another 0.5¬ƒ flatter than it looks.

Which means 17.5¬ƒ-19¬ƒ flatter than today’s 6-iron if the sole was flat at address!

I’m thinking at least as flat as Hogan, maybe 8¬ƒ.

For those interested in some of my thoughts on the backhand/forehand action, here are 3 of my favourite videos that I think are worth a look. The 3rd being Novak Djokovic who is so close to playing golf in this that it’s funny- Junior, you might like it since it’s a two handed backhand like you mentioned…..

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=channel_page

MACS

Perhaps you should go back to just reading?

Your assumptions of me and my abilities make me laugh. Yes I like to play the “Long Driving Fool with absolutely no golfing talent” but it is a choice that I made to chase my ambitions as I no longer have the time nor the inclination/motivation to play golf.

Can I hit a 3 iron flush off the grass (or was that a ball of grass you wanted me to hit?) with one swing? Well to be completely honest with you, probably not as I do not even carry a 3 iron – I dont need one! How far to you hit your 3 iron MACS? I have actually hit a 5 iron up to 250 metres (275 yards) why the hell would I carry a 3 iron when the game of golf is about scoring? I am yet to come across a Par 3 measuring over 275 yards.

FYI, my irons are blades mate, I too listen to these guys and so I could improve my ball striking I actually utilise an “old school” one iron periodically off the deck

My point in making the statements I did was to encourage other people to seek and not to take limiting beliefs as gospel. There is far more available to anyone if they are willing to question and experiment to fit with what they want to achieve. A person is only limited to the limitations they wish to place on themselves. Every one has a different journey and dreams of different things. There are possiblities out there that no one has thought of, and it is only through inspiration and seeking that you will ever find these possibilities.

MACS, the final thing I will say to you is… What’s it worth to you to find out? Talk is cheap!

Junior

Junior
You probably did not read the quote at the bottom of my post “This Year goal ’Äúbreak 80” (best 84 twice)”. The first time I sat foot on a golf course was in July 2006. So I would not even dream of matching up against you. What I meant to illustrate was that you and Lag are talking about different sports. You are an Aussie (I believe). Would you rate a Twenty Twenty century to a Test Match century in Cricket. Finally I know Jamie Sadlowski (Alberta, Canada). He does not hit his 3 iron 350 yards off the deck.

Hey Macs, where did you get those Wilsons? You must have got them recently if you’ve only played 3 years?
I got the same aim as you, my best is 10 over, want to reach singles this year.

Junior,

I believe the maximum allowed smash factor is 1.50 or COR of 0.83.

If you are achieving greater than 1.50 smash factor,I believe the governing bodies will rule that your club is illegal for competition.

You may indeed have discovered a way to increase your smash factor through technique alone but good luck convincing the rule makers.

Stinkler; St. Hubbins
I found them on ebay. they are truly brand new and one of my 5 sets now. Lets say I paid more than enough money but I am not going to hit them. Just a reminder of a dentist who gave that up for golf (wont see any more mouths) and won over Hogan by 7 strokes in the 1955 Masters. Carry Middlecoff, thats his signature.
Macs

Very nice indeed mate, keep them un hit but keep them in view! They deserve to be at least seen often.

Jaw-dropping clubs there macs – I don’t think I could bring myself to hit them either.

Dap:

FYI

Smash factor to the best of my knowledge has little correlation to COR rating firstly, it is the efficiency transfer of club head speed to ball speed via compression.

The original COR testing (now a different procedure) was done by cannon fire of a ball at 109 mph and measuring the flex and rebound. What do you think happens when you swing a golf club into a ball at 140-150mph? Would you get more spring?

ALL OF OUR GEAR passes all of the USGA tests, in fact our clubheads are actually thicker to survive the impact we put on them. Happy for any of my equipment to be tested at any time.

MAC:

Never said Sadlowski hit 3 iron 350 yards so dont know where you got that one from?

I know he has hit a hybrid 330 yards (carry) out of the Four Seasons Golf Resort Range…

Why say something so stupid then to challenge me to hit a pure 3 iron given one shot? I could throw down a challenge and say I will give you 60 balls to hit one over 350… Could you do it?

Yeah different objectives, same swing, same body motions, same basic mechanics. If you think I have nothing to offer, please feel free to skip my posts.

Settle Junior, I don’t read aggression in macs post, he’s just saying it’s a different game, which it is right? He even agreed with you about switting! I did read somewhere you don’t even play Golf now, just LD? Which is something I totally respect, you have great passion and skill, go for it. I hope to come see you do your thing one day and learn from it too. Take a deep breath and read macs posts again and don’t be so protective, you have respect round here, keep it.

BTW, this forum IS for the likes of macs and I that can’t break 80 too right? Even us hackers deserve respect.

Junior,

You will probably know more than me regarding this kind of stuff.

It’s just that I have never seen anyone including Sadlowski achieving smash factors approaching 1.60

If someone did,I would presume the officials would be suspicious to say the least.

Here is where I got the information that smash factor is limited to 1.50.They could be wrong.

http://www.powerbilt.com/te...

Junior
If this is what the long drive do to one’s communication I am not for it. For just that reason. Wont respond to you any more.
Macs

Dap:

Check out ALLOUTGOLF’s site under drivers, you will see Kevin Bullard, a well respected LD professional put a ball speed of 214.6mph with a clubhead speed of 136.9mph . This is a smash factor of 1.58

Not disputing your information (thanks for providing it), I honestly dont know what the answer is or whether that information is correct. I can only say what I have seen and experienced.

drop into 4:30

exit stage left..

textbook….

Lag, by 4.30 you mean from the top yeah? As in the 3rd or 4th frame? Looks great, realsing this drop is the hardest for me to get my head (and body) around, especially when there is a ball in front of me.
On that, I notice that my divots are mainly straight at or left of target but I make practice swings with nice divots in to out (not dramatic just nice). Is this the hitting impulse screwing with me or am I too close to the ball maybe?
What do you look for in your divots when you study them?

Lag will like the lefty divots stinky

Lag,
I know I have mentioned Elkington’s book before. Very plain and simple logic. I don’t know if you have it but I think you would like it. Here are a couple more quotes I like from it.

Setup…At address with the ball comfortably inside your left heel, you MUST set the center of your body behind the ball.
Why? So that when we turn the shoulder under the chin at the top of the backswing, we’ll be in the one and only powerful hitting position: with the head- or the center of the body- behind the ball

Now to the wrists.
There’s a movement to eliminate the wrists from the modern swing and putting stroke, which is an example of the fads and trendiness in golf instruction that I’ve avoided all my life
The wrists are as important as anything else needed to hit the ball…

Hope he reads his own book again some time

Nice simple and thoughtful logic

Dap:

Check out ALLOUTGOLF's site under drivers, you will see Kevin Bullard, a well respected LD professional put a ball speed of 214.6mph with a clubhead speed of 136.9mph . This is a smash factor of 1.58

Not disputing your information (thanks for providing it), I honestly dont know what the answer is or whether that information is correct. I can only say what I have seen and experienced.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

WOW!

I must get me one of those drivers if the testing is accurate.

Kevin Bullard is getting ball speeds approaching those of Sadlowski’s with a clubhead speed 15 mph slower.

Are you sure the testing equipment is not “calibrated” specifically for marketing purpose?

Hey Lag your thread has been taken over with talk of the latest and greatest gear, what’s going on!!

Tell me about divots please?

Hey Lag your thread has been taken over with talk of the latest and greatest gear, what's going on!!

Tell me about divots please?

Keen newbie to the game, now obsessed.

Hi Stinkler,

I’m sure Lag will clarify but my 2 penneth would be that in simple terms for a standard shot he would want to see the start of the of the divot flush on the ball to target line and an indication that the clubhead is going left towards the end of the divot. This would be consistant with Lags hitting objective where he focuses on pulling the club out of the natural CF “down and out” orbit that swingers utilise. So if you look at the stills of Knudson and see where the club is when parrallel to ground after impact (p4 in Lags terminology) you can see how far left it has already gone. From that you can imagine the even at the end of the divot the club is already working its way left.

The degree that you see this I guess will also map onto:

A. the flex of the club you are using. With a regular shafted it club it is easier to produce this fishhook look to the end of a divot than with stiff shaft.

B. how much strength you have built up in your hands/wrists/forearms will directly impact how effectively you can pull the club out of its natural orbit

C.guessing here but obviously the type of shot (fade, draw etc) you are playing will impact the look of the divot.

I’m sure Lag will mark my homework here!

Cheers, Arnie

LAG,

Go check the Nationwide Tour in San Fran this week. You may find a few good moves, not many though!! There are some strong players in the field.

Arnie,

I don’t think I could have said it better!

rt,

are you playing this week?

Showme,

Elk’s book sounds like an insightful read…
How is Elk swinging it these days..?

I saw how he was swinging it after working some with
Ben Doyle.. going with the full roll disconnect, hope he’s
still not going down that road.. unless he wants to be a ball
beater this far into his career.

RT,

I took a look at some pics of the course they are playing this week..
hard to believe it’s the SF Bay Area.. looks like it could be any generic TPC course. Few trees, flatish fairways with mogul bumps down the sides… huge multi tiered greens with that typical generic TPC look.
It was a good reminder why I choose to play in Australia instead.

The Houston Open cancelled due to high winds?
We used to play in that stuff in Australia.. They did cancel
the round at Royal Melbourne when it was blowing the balls off the greens. I highly doubt it was blowing like that in Houston.

What’s wrong with playing in tough conditions? Not Fair?
Is golf fair?

Someone told me Tiger won’t play a Pebble Beach now because he said the greens are too bumpy.. really?

In defence of Tiger, I think it was something to do with Pebble not allowing his Dad to play in a Pro Am. He thinks the greens are lumpy at Torrey Pines too but still goes back every year …. and wins!

Back to the divots…. I can honestly say that I have never produced a fishhook divot like that and it seems that one would have to exert an enormous effort to against the natural inclination of the club to do so?

Is that how one is able to maintain lag and and feel through to P4?

The Houston Open cancelled due to high winds?
We used to play in that stuff in Australia.. They did cancel
the round at Royal Melbourne when it was blowing the balls off the greens. I highly doubt it was blowing like that in Houston.

What's wrong with playing in tough conditions? Not Fair?
Is golf fair?

Someone told me Tiger won't play a Pebble Beach now because he said the greens are too bumpy.. really?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

The balls were blowing off the greens. They were going to keep the tournament going, however, most pro’s wanted to use this as a primer to the Masters, so they put the greens on about 13 on the stimpmeter to help players prepare. The downside was the balls couldn’t be addressed without penalty.

Most players said it was the unfortunate combination of the wind + super fast greens. The organizers also said they may not have delayed the tournament if it wasn’t for the Master’s coming up next week.

Take this with a grain of salt, but I’ve actually heard Tiger say he won’t play the pro-am at Pebble because it’s ”...another 6 hour round of golf.”

Personally, I play in winds like that at a links style course on my end of town. The difference is I’m paying for the round so I normally stick it out. ;) Putting is a complete joke when the pins look like wet noodles though. I usually stick it out though.

Harrington always misses the BMW open at Wentworth in May because he feels the greens aren’t in good shape then.

Wanted to share some more of Elkington’s book…...Are you sure you didn’t help him write this book Lag…?

When people admire my swing and ask me how I do it, I say “First of all, I’ve got nice heavy equipment”. I find it much easier to swing smoothly with weight. Heavier clubs are crucial. My clubs weigh enough that I’m more or less forced to swing “with a beat”. ... One of the secrets of the game is knowing precisely where the club head is, a technique that’s harder to master with light clubs….
But the golf equipment industry in in the throes of a fad to give you ever lighter clubs with ever longer shafts. But light long clubs are harder to control and more difficult to swing in rhythm.
I know what the argument will be: lighter club, faster clubhead speed, longer shots. FOR ONE CLUB ONLY, the driver…...Distance off the tee is important for some but for the other clubs where your target may be a twenty foot wide section of a green instead of a forty yard fairway, I strongly suggest you investigate the benefits of weight…
So, don’t let the latest trend in the golf industry sway you. Use a bit more weight, not a little less….............................................
I also don’t like plastic cleats. I do like heavy leather shoes with metal spikes. I want my feet in the ground, I want to feel anchored. If they made shoes with longer spikes, I’d wear them, because then I could build more torque and leverage in my swing

He goes on to say the swingweight of his irons are D-5…driver shaft 44 inches long

Excellent stuff….heavy clubs, steel spikes, heavy shoes…. the man is you in another body Lag….. I’m getting this book for you as a birthday gift to add to your collection!!!

Thanks Showme,

Maybe it’s more than us both being the “Class of 85”
We grew up with heavy clubs, and steel spikes, and having those things taken from us doesn’t feel good, nor does a golf ball that doesn’t spin left or right when we want it to.

I think one of the big problems a lot of the guys are having is that driver length off the tee has become much more important on tour than it even has been in the past.. In the past, courses were tight, and being in the rough was almost a half shot penalty.

Players now have to use a club that is not in anyway consistent in feel and performance to any other club in their bag. it’s not just a half an inch longer, but often 2 inches longer or more than any other club in their bag and this really creates a huge difference in the overall feel of the golf swing. Proportionally it is much lighter, which adds an element of confusion to the brain that wasn’t there in the past.

The driver is an extremely important club because it sets up the hole for us often 14 times a round. If a player is a good iron player, it might not show up in their stats if they are having trouble with their driver.

Ben Hogan had the option of using lighter clubs during his playing days, and even as an elder man he still used his heavy clubs to hit balls into his 70’s.

Who should we listen to? Hogan? or a marketer of golf clubs who is pitching length over accuracy because they know the power of marketing that particular paradigm?

whats the title of it Shome?

FIVE FUNDAMENTALS….Steve Elkington reveals the secrets of the best swing in golf with Curt Sampson (writer)

I bought it a few years back. Unfortunately one thing that I took from it is a completely shoulder driven pivot – my misunderstanding. Now I’ve started getting some TGM basic information it might be worth going back.

Showme, what do you think about how he tightens his whole torso so he can make the swing primarily rotary?

I also like his short game info – very simple. And very lag focussed.

I posted this over on the weight transfer thread regarding right foot coming up early on the downswing.. so here is is for those who didn’t see it over there..

The right foot coming off the ground early in the downswing has four main driving causes, and remember, it is a symptom, not a problem in and of itself.

If the golf swing is not properly pivot driven, then it is being arm driven.

When the golf swing is arm driven, the body rushes to keep up, it's actually trying to do the right thing, therefore the hips spin earlier in an attempt to get some pressure on the #4 pressure point… it's a chase, chase, chase..

The problem is that once the pivot gets to far ahead, there is nothing left to keep stress on the shaft, and if this fails before impact, your cooked.

Second, if a golf swing is too upright, it disengages the pivot by the very nature of that protocol… unless the golfer makes the big plane shift back down to get the club more behind them as Furyk does so
eloquently. A flatter swing plane tightens the screw on the #4 pressure point at the top of the backswing, and naturally sets up
a better sequence for the pivot to get engaged properly so the arms don’t get too far behind.

Do we need this big plane shift? No, we don't NEED it.. can we make it work if we grind enough golf balls? Probably… but who has time for that? Not me..

Third, long modern clubs don't help the situation because it requires much greater hand speed than a shorter club to get the face squared up back to 3 o clock on the ball than a shorter club. This is why it is so important in the modern swing to really learn to crank the wrists through impact so the pivot doesn't have to get so far ahead of the hands.

Fourth reason…
If the pivot fires hard post impact, and is able to do so, because SOME OF IT IS LEFT TO USE! then it allows the player to be more patient with the pivot on the downswing, because the player will have the gun powder to use later..

Now to do this, takes strength, and a bit of work to get this synchronized, BUT IT CAN BE DONE!

Once that hand speed is in place, then the feet can be taught to support that new load, and the proper utilization of ground forces
and offer support and pivot leverage which makes it all possible.

’ÄúTrying” to keep the right foot down rarely works if the golfer has a weak pivot and weak hands… the club ’Äúflips” and pressure is lost, giving the golf ball way to many options in it's flight path.

Lag,
I posted a response to it over there too and as you’ll see, it’s the wrong foot! lol.

What’s your take Lag et al on Jim Hardy’s statement that for a one plane swing you MUST be flexible enough to turn your shoulders at least 90¬ƒ? If not, you need a two-plane swing.

I bought it a few years back. Unfortunately one thing that I took from it is a completely shoulder driven pivot – my misunderstanding. Now I've started getting some TGM basic information it might be worth going back.

Showme, what do you think about how he tightens his whole torso so he can make the swing primarily rotary?

I also like his short game info – very simple. And very lag focussed.

I found that ‘ab tightening’ interesting, ....I am sure he thinks of that when practicing but couldn’t be a thought when he is playing. It would just be an ingrained part of his swing now It would seem to help wind up the cork screw for stored power…to be used on the way down
Short game info was plain, simple and all you need

I guess I figured it was part of his preshot routine and then he’d forget about it during the actual swinging. I am wondering now after hearing Lynn Blake talk about a stable head whether it was for Steve how he focussed on eliminating sway?

Elk has always had a great well rounded swing with no sway at all… In his book as you know he talks about setting slightly behind the ball and being in the same spot at impact…...he has always shifted weight back and then through (as you have to when swinging something on an arc) but only ever so slightly….which is why his swing always looked easy and effortless and balanced and why he has always struck the ball well and very rarely had downward spirals with his ball striking

Shome, I agree 100%. It also seems that his club is always on plane, always pointed at the plane line. Simple and beautiful!

Kevin

He who dies with the most friends, wins.

Thankyou kevcarter…we finally agree on something!!!!!! Yes !!!!!!!
An all around excellent swing to model your game on

As I have pointed out it is an excellent book pertaining to all the basics in a simple form that are needed to hit a golf ball solid and in the correct direction…..

How did my post get above yours?? I quoted you so mine should follow? Anyhow…good stuff

Shome, I agree 100%. It also seems that his club is always on plane, always pointed at the plane line. Simple and beautiful!

Kevin

Shome, I agree 100%. It also seems that his club is always on plane, always pointed at the plane line. Simple and beautiful!

Kevin

He who dies with the most friends, wins.

Thankyou kevcarter…we finally agree on something!!!!!! Yes !!!!!!!
An all around excellent swing to model your game on

As I have pointed out it is an excellent book pertaining to all the basics in a simple form that are needed to hit a golf ball solid and in the correct direction…..

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

LOL

ShoMe, I have nothing but respect for you. We only differ on one thing, and we can find a middle ground there, somehow. :-) I have learned a lot from you and hope to continue learning!

Kevin

Ben Doyle has tapes of his lessons that you can rent. A few years back I rented one with he and Elk from around 1997. I think Elk even mentioned during the lesson that he was working on a book.

The highlight of the video is when Ben is trying to get Elk to execute the “wet towel” drill, where he wets the end of a big towel and has you stand near a bag stand and…. using only your pivot…. you get the wet end of the towel to “throw-out” and slam into the stand. If you try and “help” with your arms and hands you’ll miss the stand. Lag…. I’m sure you did it a bunch when working with Ben!

Well, Elk looks like a beginner trying to do the drill and he simply can’t get the wet end to throw-out properly so the towel keeps missing the stand. Ben watches and intermittently takes the towel from Elk and performs the drill flawlessly. He hands the towel back to Elk only to watch him struggle and miss the stand time after time.

After several minutes, Elk…. obviously frustrated….. leans over so he’s looking Ben right in the eye (Elk towers over Ben), and with a slight aussie accent says “but WHY can’t I do it?!!”.

It’s a pricelss moment.

Robbo

Lag,

I don’t have status on Nationwide..I will have something after this year if I go back I will make it to the finals !!

Great discussion-absolutely fascinating one and all. I hate to drag up a point from quite a while ago, but I need clarification on a point that Lag brought up on page 10. Lag, you stated that Mac used to work on straightening his right arm and feel as if he were trying to bring his hands into his hip pocket. Were you referring to his right “back pocket” or his “front pocket”? (avoiding OTT). I have tried the back pocket and it is a strange sensation indeed. I wish to know if I am working on the right movement.

Mac’s idea was that you can turn your shoulders and flat and level as you like, right from the top, just as if you are coming OTT, but you must straighten the right arm out quickly as if the hands are going to land in your right front pocket..

If the right arm does not straighten, the club will come OTT.. if you quickly straighten the right arm, you can turn as level as you want.

It’s a really nice concept.. and with a lot of practice, it can be mastered.

It feels really strange to do it though..

The first guy that really had that look that I recall was a young Hal Sutton back in the late 1970’s early 1980’s.

Lag,
I’ve been reading through the posts starting back at page one, and I’ve got to say that I’ve got serious respect for how you go about things. Your knowledge aside, I really admire your depth of thought regarding golf and beyond. Your description of golf as a martial art was something worth printing, and really spoke to me. You clearly love the game.
I was hitting some pitches today feeling the pressure point in the right index finger on the shaft and it was as if I felt the ball on the clubface for the first time in my life- talk about Zen! It spoke to me in a way that I couldn’t ignore which is probably what sent me back to the start of the thread. It makes for great reading, not to mention learning. I had a feeling a year or so ago when I was hitting the ball very crisply which was that clubhead strength through the ball is more important than clubhead speed. But I couldn’t tell how or why, and I eventually lost the feel for it. I got that same feeling today pitching and being aware of maintaining lag pressure for as long as I could. I think I became afraid of the hands during my Leadbetter/Faldo worshipping days when the plan was to remove them from the swing. After today, think I want them back!
Anyway, great stuff. I’m looking forward to my continued digging through the posts..
Cheers….

The first guy that really had that look that I recall was a young Hal Sutton back in the late 1970's early 1980's.

Interestingly, I read a small book by a guy that used to caddy for Hogan back at his home course, in his later years I think. Anyway, he said that the only other person he’d ever heard make the same sound as Hogan when he struck the ball, was Sutton. He said he overheard it on the range at Colonial I think, and it made him turn around to watch….

With all due respect lag, I don’t think it is fair to tell everyone they need heavy clubs.
Some of the old clubs weight in at D1 to D3 , some modern clubs weight in at E1 to E3 in the irons.

We have research proving clubs to heavy for an individual effects movement patterns creating poor functional movement patterns.

Each individual is different and different weights and flexes suits different players.

The worst thing you can do for an average player is for them to start using heavier clubs. Yeah sure use smaller headed irons to improve ball striking although weight of clubs a player should be fitted for and same applies for shaft flex..

If you are all going to speak about heavier clubs starting talking in swing weights.

Heavier clubs suits some and not others, really get tested and find out

This is with respect, Lag

Bio,
I think Lag and myself have been talking about using heavy clubs as training aids to swing and to feel the clubhead….. and then certainly use older smaller blades to help your hitting….which do all actually swingweight heavier than todays clubs as the head’s aren’t full of polyurethane and don’t have graphite shafts in them
I don’t think we are talking hit with HEAVY clubs….just that it would be a good idea to hit with HEAVIER clubs….so we can actually feel the clubhead.
Not 100% the case for everyone as you need some power and some body and hand action but unless you are 60 years old or more, a slightly heavier club will help more than hinder going by the ultra lite heads and shafts that are made today
And you are right, swingweight is different to actual overall weight, but a club can still swingweight heavy yet have no actual overall weight to it because the swingweight balance point is countered off the length of shaft etc….
I know when i have sets made up I asked for D1 swingweight and they used to give me a funny look as if they had to have NASA insert metal in it to get it to that weight, so I think you will find most new clubs do swingweight lighter and certainly don’t approach D-3 or especially the E-0 range…they don’t even get lob wedges to read close to that E level….
I just got a set the other day, with steel shafts, brand new technology and they came in at C-9…..it was like swinging a feather… i had to put lead tape all over them to get up to somewhere near where I could feel them, which then ruins the appearance of the club…. like I said and also what you suggest it is good for some and not as good for others to play with D-4 clubs, but everyone needs to be better fitted for clubs in all regards and a heavy club even just as a training tool would be a great idea

Have the clubmakers on here got any thoughts on weight distribution throughout the length of the club, or any research that you guys are aware of? It seems like it would be easier to lead a heavier handle through the ball but I can see many downsides too. Any thoughts?

Stronger players tend towards heavier total weight clubs that still have a D+ swing weight, or MOI heft upper end of the scales.

Slower swingers and average players tend to like a good head feel swingweight wise and lighter overall weights.

Totally agree with Bio on this one and I can certainly tell you from experience that heavily weighted (in terms of swingweight and overall weight will do more harm then good).

Firstly to utilise heavier swing weighted/overall weighted clubs will play havoc on the neurological motor skill patterns. If you wish to get slower and ruin your neuromuscular swing patterns please head to the heavier section. THERE IS NO POSITIVE CARRY OVER in going from heavy to light (normal club weight)

Lastly if you are adding weight to add more mass for improved impact conditions, FORGET IT! In the force equation mass is measured in Kg, adding a few grams will do absolutely nothing to your impact force, in fact it will hinder it! The heavier it is the slower you will be able accelerate it and the less force you will generate… (Feel free to do the math..)

But hey what do I know… ;0)

PS: D5 and below weighted clubs are not heavy, D9/10 into E’s is heavy!

Junior,
i think you may be missing the point a little on this one….I get what you are saying but we are mainly talking about irons and Irons are not about distance or speed….they are about control and accuracy …if my partner hits a 8 iron and I hit a 7 iron who cares what we hit if I am 8 feet away and he is 30 feet away….the %’s are in my favor to hole more from 8 feet than he will from 30 feet….all day long…so with irons distance is really of a limited factor
Makes sense what you are saying ….with a driver…. where distance is paramount and can help on occasion to shorten a hole and make it easier but if I still have no precision with my irons it doesn’t really matter how long I can hit my driver…. I honestly think graphite shafts in irons are a waste of time for whomever has them no matter how old or good or bad you are

PS: D5 and below weighted clubs are not heavy, D9/10 into E's is heavy!

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

You are right Junior…... D-5 isn’t really heavy….everyone can swing a lob wedge and they come in at around that scale weight….but most iron clubs come thru in the high C-s nowadays and that is useless for hitting a club where we are looking for accuracy and not distance…..
ever seen a great pro with graphite in their irons?...ever seen a half decent pro with graphite in their irons?
The only 3 I can ever think of were Player at one point in the 60’s and that didn’t last long and Norman in the 90’s and he dropped it like a hot potato soon after also because the variance in shots is all over the place…...I just can’t see how graphite can help an iron player be a better iron player…...Hoch did well with graphite in his irons but he is the only one I can think of that stuck with them.

Showme:

I totally agree with you and I am not talking about drivers either, I know many guys who have irons that are in the high D’s low E’s and no, no one worth their eye teeth would use graphite in irons as the consistancy is just not there. I dont know many people with C weighted irons but your experiences may be different.

The thing that I objected to was the “training” aspect with heavier clubs… This will have no positive effect I can guarantee you – I am not stating this as a Long Driver but as a National Strength and Conditioning Coach, there is no positive carryover from heavy weight to light weight, it ruins and alters neuromuscular movement patterns and I think it is dangerous advice to give when you dont understand motor skill development and the impacts of training. Golf conditioning is 20 years behind sports conditioning industry standards.

SHOWME,

What brand set was that at c-9? The only one I could think of was ping. They believe in a lighter heads, stiffer shaft than most manuf. Titleist products are standard at d-2 unless specified otherwise.

Verplank was the last to use graphite. ( up until about 5 years ago) He did so due to elbow problems and graphite reduced vibration. He is using dynalite now. The torque issue is detrimental with graphite compared to steel and that is why no one uses it in the irons. loss of control.

Using year 2000 as a starting point, I have had tried cleveland, adams, ping, macgregor over the past 8-9 years and all have come thru at high c-s to d-0 at the heaviest… without having to load them up with tape
Mizunos snuck in at D-2 which felt slightly better to me…... I hated the lighter swinging irons, took away my control of the shot and I also hated sticking lead tape all over the heads to try and up the feel of them for what I wanted.
Wonder if it is any co-incidence that the heaviest set of ‘recent’ irons I have are Nike blades like Tiger uses that are at D-4…I am sure he likes his irons set up with some ‘weight’ to them

SHOWME

You mentioned you got a new set the other day that were c-9. what make were they? Try the Titleist ..they are the best out there

RT,
Are you referring to the AP1 and 2’s?
Have you got a mini review? What is their swingweight?
I’ve got the Mizuno MP-32’s and they are D1 I believe.

Do pros not get their clubs properly fitted for the swingweight they want?

Would have thought that any pro worth anything could have ordered their irons from sponsors at the specific swingweight they desired…?

Showme:

What is it that you disliked about having lead tape stuck all over the heads? Isn’t it about performance not asthetics? Couldn’t the tour van do it professionally for you? Why not use hosel weighting if it meant that much?

PS – I am sure Tiger doesnt have the trouble you have had with getting irons that are ‘fit’ and swingweighted correctly! ;0)

I can get whatever clubs I want, but they come through at D-1 being on the heavy end for what they come out at and not much more….... I hate having lead tape on my clubs because over time it wears down, loses it’s effect and if you don’t get it in the exact spot on each shot it affects the traj of the clubs and can make them react differently…..
Tour vans aren’t as high tech as they sound….. My Nikes are fine… they weigh in at D-4….what I was getting at was I am sure Tiger likes his clubs heavier…..the set I have were one of the early models they designed for Tiger and they weigh D-4 so they took his thoughts into how that club should be made and it is heavier….
The huge problem nowadays is most of the tour stuff is actually what they make for the shops….not how the pros want them… it is hard to get clubs exactly how YOU want them….as they are now designed for the amateurs instead of it being the other way around like it was once…when the clubs were designed for the pros

Do you not use a professional clubfitter that you know and trust? Or do you build your own clubs…

Im sorry that it appears so difficult for you guys on the “big time tour” (assuming you are on the PGA tour, hard to pass comment as you still want your anonymity, not sure why) to get your clubs correctly weighted and set up the way you want them to be done. Very surprised that your sponsors allow this to happen to you considering these are the tools of your “trade” (assume you have an equipment sponsor? or do you just use any set you choose?)

Im sure Tiger and some of the other big names dont have these problems getting their equipment the way they want them do they?

Thought the actual tour equipment was designed specifically for you guys and wouldn’t be available for retail sale…

I am completely against swinging a “weighted club” the training aid versions, those that are several pounds…

I am talking about typically one ounce more.. not one pound more..

What I have been observing is that over time, in recent years, irons have become much lighter in dead weight.. often longer, to encourage distance with the irons..

To play good golf, it is important to swing a club you can feel.. feeling some weight down at the clubhead is paramount, if you are interested in controlling the golf ball properly.

The days where the club feels light in my hands are the days I don’t strike the ball as well.

Junior,

Let all be reminded you are speaking as a long drive champion, and not a precision iron player.. having some weight in the heads does help lessen post impact deceleration. I can tell this even on chip shots out of rough around the greens. I rarely hit an iron shot anywhere near 100% capacity. I might hit a hard 6 iron 170 yards,
a medium one 160, a soft one 150, a knock down 140, a punch runner 130. However, if I had to hit one high over a tree on the 72nd hole of a tournament and land it on the green to a tight pin over a bunker, I might be able to hit it 200 if I went at it 110%.

Light clubs don’t properly load the bigger muscles in the body. They encourage golfers to swing with their arms and not their pivots..
A heavier club naturally engages the bigger muscles of the body without having to think about it..

The body also has an ability to adapt, and over time get tough and strong.

I suspect this is why I have seen many of my contemporaries from my playing days, not striking the ball nearly as well now as they did 10 years ago. They have all gone to lighter gear.. They are hitting it farther, but not better.. better is closer to the hole, not in the greenside bunker.

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that the equipment companies have been tailoring today’s irons to play and feel more in line with today’s drivers… so the feel is coming from long, light and big.. not small heavy and shorter..

Ben Hogan used very heavy irons, stiff, very flat, and grinded open.
Do you believe the greatest striker of a golf ball? or do you believe
an MIT engineering genius who is designing high tech light clubs that can’t break 90?

Moe Norman, heavy clubs.. George Knusdon.. heavy..

Even Watson and Seve poured sugar down the shafts of their putters..

BOMGOLF222,

Thank you for the kind words..

we don’t always get that around here!

Here’s one for your book lag:

Par 4 18th, Houston Open, yesterday’s final round. Average approach shot was from 180-200 yards, average score on the hole = 5.2.

Steb, that’s not quite fair on them.
It was a 60km/h wind hurting from the right with a tight pin cut back left next to water (without the typical thick rough right next to the green) and they had to tee it up over water straight into their face with a big carry!

That was a ridiculously hard hole for sure!

Edit;

I see what Lag and Shome are on about is making every meter count in a latitude sense more than a longitude sense. The feel, hence weight, of the club is so important to them for that. Almost like all irons are short game? Is this is the idea of good iron play?

Showme,
I can see your point, although this depends on the club manufacture, the club making companies we have relationships with their clubs weigh in between d1 and d4, although maybe the generic companies are lighter.
There is an issue with club companies specs in building club forsure. I always recomend clients to go to clubmakers to get there clubs custom built. If you buy off the rack , you don’t know what your getting.

Although recomending heavier clubs for people to practice with do you know the impact and effect this can have on people movement patterns?
If the club is to heavy for them it makes them worse and creates more movement patterns issues.
Golf isn’t all arms or hands. Yes the hand must be educated so you can square the face up at impact and that’s all their role is.

You use your body as the engine to create speed which drives the arms and the club head.

90% of average golfers are to arms orientated to create speed and last thing they need is extra weight which forces them to only want to use more arms.This only make them worse or create more movement pattern issues.
This isn’t my word this is from years of extensive research using measured science.
You can expect people to go on views alone or beliefs this isn’t fair to them, just cause this is what you believe or what lag believes means it’s gospel. Heavier clubs may suit you great. Doesn’t mean it works for everyone else out there.

Sure do some pitching to educate the hands for dirrection. You don’t need heavy clubs to do this.
Shaft flex makes a club feel heavier or lighter and kick points not nessecarly swing weights. There is a huge amount of things to consider for equipment and what to train with. You can have a club be C1 and feel heavy and you can have E1 and feel light depends on each golfer, shaft flexes,kick points and total weights as well.

It’ not fair to people to voice your view and beliefs that work for you and push this onto others, this maynot work for them. This could make them worse not better.

I respect Lag and yourself, although how about sticking to facts and truths, lets not blind people with personal beliefs and view points.

As I have said thousands of times I have no points of view or beliefs , we present what measured sceince and research tell us.

Excuses Golfur

:)

You forgot to mention that many putts were triple breakers.

Ha, you guys.

Hey Bio, what is measured science in this case and how has it shown weighted clubs is a detriment to some movement patterns? When I say weighted I don’t mean excessive either, just the heavier end. Seriously interested.

Excuses Golfur

:)

You forgot to mention that many putts were triple breakers.

Oh yeah, true.
I also forgot to mention the ridiculous amount of money they were playing for! ;)

Junior,
i think you may be missing the point a little on this one….I get what you are saying but we are mainly talking about irons and Irons are not about distance or speed….they are about control and accuracy …if my partner hits a 8 iron and I hit a 7 iron who cares what we hit if I am 8 feet away and he is 30 feet away….the %'s are in my favor to hole more from 8 feet than he will from 30 feet….all day long…so with irons distance is really of a limited factor
Makes sense what you are saying ….with a driver…. where distance is paramount and can help on occasion to shorten a hole and make it easier but if I still have no precision with my irons it doesn't really matter how long I can hit my driver…. I honestly think graphite shafts in irons are a waste of time for whomever has them no matter how old or good or bad you are

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

That is the voice of a professional golfer!!!

Brilliant Shome and something all us amateurs should take notice of.

One other thing we should be aware of is the changing lofts on irons in regard to wedges migrating from averaging 49 degrees to now being 46 or even 45! So if your mate hits his new wedge as far as you hit your 9, check his lofts!

Stinkler,
Research has shown is for the average bear is if you put a heavier weight at the end of a lever,(arms)is the first thing you will engage. The average bear will use arms first to move the heavier object or club into motion.
The average bear as mention before tendencies are to swing arms first.
A heavier club will cause the average bear to release earlier and brake down earlier prior to impact. Also due to the extra weight they have to try and thrust their arms harder to create the same speed to maintain their rythm and timing, Which cause then their timing and rythm to go out the window.The average bear heavily relies on rythm,timing and arm speed to swing the club to compensate due to having poor movement patterns where their engine or body doesn’t fire in the right sequence.

Yeah heavier clubs works for Lag and showme cause they have more effective movement patterns then the average bear do. It has the opposite effect for them although if they have clubs which are to heavy for their movement patterns this will effect them as well. There is a fine line here.They would find if they went too heavy they would start hitting the ball poorly and move back to something lighter which gives them consistency.

This is where a professional club fitter like Bryan Ferguson comes into play who know their salt. They run through going from light up the scale increasing weight until it’s too heavy and effects your movement patterns, then they bring you back to where your a weight suits you and you have a consistent movement pattern and presto you have found the club for you.

Tiger woods could distinguish 2 grams difference which effected his swing. A club maker made up three clubs for tiger to test, he weighed them which apparently weighed the same. Tiger hit all three and came back and said I like to driver which is 2 grams heavier then this one and one gram lighter than the last one.
Club maker went and re weighed them tiger was right.

Tour player know, average bear need assistance in this area.

I see your point Bio….I just believe from MY experience, that a heavier club ,even just to practice swing with, actually engages more body motion which like you said is what we are after… I know I feel like I have to turn and rotate my body more effectively to swing it…...I am talking heavy practice swings…..but maybe that’s me because I know I have to do it that way and that I would hurt myself by swinging something heavy if I didn’t use hands/arms.shoulders/torso/legs all in the one motion and have nothing working independently.

Do you not use a professional clubfitter that you know and trust? Or do you build your own clubs…

Im sorry that it appears so difficult for you guys on the ’Äúbig time tour” (assuming you are on the PGA tour, hard to pass comment as you still want your anonymity, not sure why) to get your clubs correctly weighted and set up the way you want them to be done. Very surprised that your sponsors allow this to happen to you considering these are the tools of your ’Äútrade” (assume you have an equipment sponsor? or do you just use any set you choose?)

Im sure Tiger and some of the other big names dont have these problems getting their equipment the way they want them do they?

Thought the actual tour equipment was designed specifically for you guys and wouldn't be available for retail sale…

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Junior….I get my clubs from factory by the tour division master clubmaker at each location…. I guarantee all the clubheads are made with lighter material, they are hollow inside with no mass behind them,. they are made nowadays with the amateur in mind….not the pro using them.. Take a look at some guys bags….especially PING for eg….you look at how many of those guys are still using the old Eye’2…they don’t go near the new irons….. on the new ones the center of gravity is high so they are harder to hit from the rough, they go high when struck from tee or fairway and are hard for the pro to knock them down…....lots of things like that.
The companies make clubs nowadays with selling to amateurs and $$$$$ in mind and just stick them in our hands to be the guinea pigs to try and sell them, plus they really don’t want us using the old clubs…that’s not what they sell, so many guys are playing with ill suited equipment to please the companies and not help their golf game
Mate…one day I will say my name….for now it’s not about me , it’s about trying to pass on some lessons and advice. If I said who I was I know it would be a Q/A about me the person and not about trying to help people’s games and that’s something I am not wanting,

respect

Yeah.

I’m a bit pissed so excuse me, but,

Golf. Is it sport or an art? The best players are artists, individual and strong. Heaps of generic and commercial shit out there for sure.

Love that quote, ‘golf is to be played, not won’

Relevance to topic?

Lag/Shome, I get the feeling these guys are artists of the game.

Respect.

Showme,
It’s a golden shame, you boys are held back due to the $$$$ in the game and dictated to by companies. To having the right equipment. I hear you on this note.

Sure I can see how a slightly heavier club can help aid you firing your sequence better, This is effective for you and has merit.
Although are we talking about 10% heavier?
Maybe if we go into more detail the average bear develops a better insight to what you distinguish as a heavier club.
For the average bear though he’s suffering out their not having a sequence like yours, which when he ops for a heavier clubs only fuels his issues if it’s too heavy.

I respect lag and yourself and what you have both achieved, I have had the pleasure of playing with the old persimmons again with lag at his home track which was awesome fun.
We had some fun puring an old 1iron off his wooden deck and admit this is a great feeling. Although these clubs weighed similar to my bats I use today.Even the billy dunks I grew up with were similar weight.

Bio and Junior….
I have read here about saying heavy to light doesn’t help because it fires different parts of the body etc…..I know this is a golf forum but IMO this example below should hold true…you guys maybe could explain better what I am missing here ….....
Can you give me a reason why baseball players wait in the on deck circle and swing a heavily weighted bat before it is their turn to face the pitcher…... ? Does that not constitute something we are talking about ? I think Junior said heavy to light doesn’t work yet here are baseball players doing it?....still to this day
I am not a science guy with much clue about all that…..I know what my body can and can’t do….but that seems to go against some of what has been said even though it is a different sport, surely the logic is the same….... they swing heavy to get the entire body moving and flowing and into the action

Showme,
Baseball is another sport we specialise in and did a huge research program on potential injury in base ball. We also researched how to train and improve power out put in throwing pitching and hitting.

Baseballers only swing using several bats together, is only effective for stretching only. But not for creating speed output.Several studies have been done on this.
They don’t use several bats to try to increase swing speed or improve movement patterns, in many cases trying to use heavier weights ,this decreases speed out put and creates poor movement patterns.
Additional studies show the same thing for throwing,
throwing a heavy ball then going to light ball does not increase speed.In many cases decreases speed output as well.

Anything more than10% added swing weight to the distal end speed has huge impacts creating poor movement patterns in the golf swing from the average bear to the top line tour players.

This was proven again through extensive research over the years of screening tens of thousands of players and training movements patterns from the average bears to tour players. From 4 former number 1 in the world players, a long list of U.S and L.P.G.A tour players, nation wide players, to college players right down the average bear. Anything thing above 10% swing weight had an impact on their movement patterns and distal end speed. which resulted in poorer movement patterns and decrease in distal end speed or in golfers terms club speed

Yes, I have seen that study as well Bio and agree.

I do thinka couple of swings with a heavy club just to aid stretching first thing is acceptable.

Hitting balls with a heavy club IMO is counter productive. When I say heavy, I mean the commercially produced clubs like momentus that are ridiculously heavy, not standard clubs with a few strips pf lead that the user has attached because it gives them a greater feel for where the head is during the swing.

I think we are all on the same page here folks.

Spot on Styles…and Bio…...I wouldn’t say to play with those heavy momentus clubs but to swing to loosen up and feel the body in motion like the baseball players do is certainly something that can be done….when I have spoken of heavy clubs I have meant to loosen up with them and feel the clubhead being moved by our entire body…I mentioned Vijay actually hits balls with one but not my cup of tea to hit shots with them…..and when I have spoken about heavy clubs to play with I don’t mean telegraph poles, I meant exactly like Lag has stated,, something that is heavier than today’s norm to let us feel the clubhead instead of feeling like we are just swooshing the air with a toothpick

Junior,

Let all be reminded you are speaking as a long drive champion, and not a precision iron player.. having some weight in the heads does help lessen post impact deceleration. I can tell this even on chip shots out of rough around the greens. I rarely hit an iron shot anywhere near 100% capacity. I might hit a hard 6 iron 170 yards,
a medium one 160, a soft one 150, a knock down 140, a punch runner 130. However, if I had to hit one high over a tree on the 72nd hole of a tournament and land it on the green to a tight pin over a bunker, I might be able to hit it 200 if I went at it 110%.

Light clubs don't properly load the bigger muscles in the body. They encourage golfers to swing with their arms and not their pivots..
A heavier club naturally engages the bigger muscles of the body without having to think about it..

The body also has an ability to adapt, and over time get tough and strong.

I suspect this is why I have seen many of my contemporaries from my playing days, not striking the ball nearly as well now as they did 10 years ago. They have all gone to lighter gear.. They are hitting it farther, but not better.. better is closer to the hole, not in the greenside bunker.

I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that the equipment companies have been tailoring today's irons to play and feel more in line with today's drivers… so the feel is coming from long, light and big.. not small heavy and shorter..

Ben Hogan used very heavy irons, stiff, very flat, and grinded open.
Do you believe the greatest striker of a golf ball? or do you believe
an MIT engineering genius who is designing high tech light clubs that can't break 90?

Moe Norman, heavy clubs.. George Knusdon.. heavy..

Even Watson and Seve poured sugar down the shafts of their putters..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

For your information Lag as obviously you did not read my previous post I was actually speaking as a nationally qualified sports strength and conditioning coach not as a Long Driver… When are you actually going to let that go? Is it due to your insecurities that you THINK you know what works best? Perception is dangerous when it comes to producing a training effect and results in athletes. You can list as many players as you like that go HEAVY, remember a whole nation of people can be wrong… I would rather deal in what is scientifically optimal!

Now you utilise Baseball as an example, have you played baseball at any level? I have actually played Baseball professionally and represented my country.. Thank god for Bio who has correctly said that the utilisation of “donuts” (heavy weights for bats) is merely for a stretching and warm up process. It neither builds bat head speed nor builds mechanics and the professionals know this. Ever see the great hitters using these implements to work technique or speed in BP?

I do however agree with you that slightly heavier is the way to go for a training effect, however you must also train the converse of this and also train with slightly lighter for neurological adaptation. See the confusion here is between STRENGTH and USABLE STRENGTH…

Strength is broken up into 3 subcategories, each of which are trained differently… MAXIMAL STRENGTH, ENDURANCE STRENGTH, SPEED STRENGTH… So what do we need to train in a golf athlete? (Forget Long drive-Precision debate as they fall under the same umbrella) Does a golfer need to develop MAX STRENGTH? Well this can be quickly answered by thinking about the sport we play… 1. How much does a golf club weigh? 350g at most? Are we benefitting ourselves then by teaching our bodies (which is the process of adaptation) to swing progressively heavier objects? Only if the weight of our competitive implement changed to increased levels of mass. We receive no further scoring benefits by using a heavier club than the next guy so MAX STRENGTH training is therefore ineffective in our goals as a golf athlete – Long Drive has a strength component and I still do not train MAX STRENGTH protocols and yet here you are recommending it to precision golfers where it plays absolutely no part!

STRENGTH ENDURANCE: Is this important to the sport of golf? Absolutely! Do you want to finish a golf game as strong as you started? Do you want your swing efficiency as good at the end as when you started? So how is this trained? (Perhaps I will leave this for you to answer seeing you are an “expert” on this and I will provide everyone with the answer at a later post) Oh in this category is where mechanical motion/skill reinforcement is best trained also.

SPEED STRENGTH: Is this important to the golf swing? I believe so… But before you jump on this let us also further define what SPEED STRENGTH is… It is also defined as DYNAMIC STRENGTH or the strength utilised when performing any dynamic sporting motion. Would you say that the golf swing is a dynamic motion? Speed Strength is built on strength of contractile function, neurological tracing and neuromuscular recruitment patterns. Yes I know you are going to see the word speed or strength and think it is totally irrelevant to what a pro golfer does but there is a speed of contraction and movement that must be trained no matter whether you are swinging at 110mph or 150mph… How do we then train this? Once again I will turn it over to you as you are claiming that I have no knowledge as what is required to train a precision golfer, so perhaps you can enlighten us as to how to train this protocol into an athlete? Oh by the way this category also covers dynamic efficiency of motion, something I believe is what you precision golfers require?

Please do not talk down to me when it comes to training and effects, yes I choose to do Long Drive, however when it comes to training athletes no matter whether they are precision golfers or powerlifters, I am ahead of you well and truly in this game. It is not about perception it is about effective training for any athlete based on the inherent qualities of what their sport requires.

and when I have spoken about heavy clubs to play with I don't mean telegraph poles, I meant exactly like Lag has stated,, something that is heavier than today's norm to let us feel the clubhead instead of feeling like we are just swooshing the air with a toothpick

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

Showme: That is the drama you guys have no been instructed on how to utilise “lighter” training equipment for a neuromuscular effect and this is why you refer to it as “swooshing the air with a toothpick”... If you were shown how to train contractile function with such an implement you would quickly see the benefits to your game… As I have stated before believe me when I say golf strength and conditioning is 20 years behind the sports science world!

It would be interesting, and I hope to do it myself, to have a few average bears screened and see if they are using clubs that are light and indeed could go heavier. It seems there may be a misunderstanding as to the levels we are talking, like Bio said, is it 10%.
Bio, on this, have you done screenings where you believe the punter could go heavier and benefit?
We have established two things here I think.
1.Heavier clubs can increase feel and connection to the ball and shot needed. (shown by world class application).
2. There is no movement benefit from using/training with TOO heavy clubs and it can be of detriment. (proven by scientific research)

So there must be a middle ground? A point where the feel/motion benefit stops for weight and where you lose feel/motion if too light. Guess this is what a screening can show.

Just re read your post Bio and I guess you answered all that before sorry. Yeah Bryan F is good, have had lessons with him too. He does some biomechanics too right?

I will continue to use myself as an example:
I was a long hitter with wood….I finished high each year in the driving stats and the accuracy stats that I used wood. I still ranked up quite high when the smaller metal woods were around…shorter shafts, even in graphite.
Then the metal wood boom really took off….they started making them bigger and longer and lighter and hitting it in the middle meant a whole lot less….......my distance didn’t move up one bit…..my accuracy was the approx the same too…...yet in one year I dropped close to 100 places in driving distance!!!! Nothing to do with swing or technique or ability….all to do with equipment. It helped the lesser hitters who didn’t middle the ball get extra distance. So for me to be able to drive long and straight with a ‘heavier’ smaller headed wooden club means there was no technical deficiency, yet the metal wood passed me by? Why?... I must have been doing something right to be able to hit a wooden club long and straight….yet it didn’t jump over to metal? Any idea? I wasn’t short but I went from being top 5% in distance with wood and then going to around 50% mark with metal woods makes no sense…. I picked up 0 yards and the other guys picked up 10-15 yards around that time… I am sure I know what the reason was….wanna hear what someone else has to say…...... move your response over to the Showmethemoney thread under ask golfguru….it has a heading about modern gear….lets get it out of Lag’s thread for a while

JUNIOR,

I agree..not sure about showme, but when I was on Tour I actuall y was going to sign with Callaway the following year. I was concerned about finding an iron I like( I was already playing the driver) the Tour rep, said ” we can make them anyway you want us to”. Most if not all will grind the leading edge, take some off the toe, heel , etc, weighting clubs to a specific swingweight is the easiest task for them to accomplish. Many tour players actually will weigh each grip to get all of them as close to the same gram weighting as possible before they are installed. I play ribbed grips and will not let anyone put them on for me.

I have never heard of companies not accomodating the player as as much as possible, especially when they are being paid to play their equipment!!

Talk to you soon Junior..

SHOWME

the new ones the center of gravity is high so they are harder to hit from the rough, they go high when struck from tee or fairway and are hard for the pro to knock them down…….lots of things like that

This doesn’t make since. If a club has a high center of gravity it will go LOW ..most are making low center of gravity clubs so the average joe can ge them airborne easier.

RT1:

That was what I thought would happen too mate, must only be the case with the “GOOD” tour players… At least you and Lag have the bravery to let us know who you are… Not sure I can take others on face value anymore claiming to be a big time pro when they can’t even get contracted custom made equipment…

Thank you for confirming this for everyone, I already knew that this was the case as when you are truly contracted by a company there is nothing they wont do for you when you are utilising and promoting their equipment. Why do the amateurs by them? Because such and such uses them so they must be good. If you were only designing for amateurs, why would you ever sign pros on endorsement contracts?

Also found it a bit strange when lead taping was the only option “apparently” available to a “top line pro”....

I also like the fact mate that you wont let anyone near your tools to build them. I also will rather do it myself to ensure it is done correctly or at the very least take it to someone I truly trust and get hands on in the process to ensure it is done the way you like…

Can you imagine saying to Tiger et al…, sorry these only come in a D1 so you will have to get them lead taped by someone to get the swingweight you desire? Hahahaha… Custom grind, custom fit…

If it smells like cow poo, it usually is… ;)

Junior…..’you’re the man’ buddy….go read my other post on the showmethamoney thread before you jump to conclusions about the equipment. You know nothing my friend with regards to tour vans or such
I am not going to fight with you. I told you why I don’t care to say who I am. Lag and Styles know and they will vouch if need be and you can eat your words.
You don’t know me and that’s fine and how I will keep it because of remarks like this by you ...ever played in all 4 majors? No… No-one?.........I didn’t think so
I smell cow poo too…......

No respect for you either rt…..every thing i say is bogus according to you….you just follow my posts around to try and start an argument
I am sure some people have learned a few things from my offerings so I guess I will just speak with Styles and Lag in private from here on because you guys surely aren’t worth it throwing your big ‘player’ ideas around….Sorry everyone…this is exactly why i have tried to stay low profile….because of people who THINK they are know it alls
Outta here

See response in “Your thread”...

lol… your response was just as I expected…. honesty is valued here, not stories…

Junior,

Let’s all stay respectful here,
But I must say that long driving events and fantastic ball striking such as George Knusdon have very little to do with one another.

Health, fitness, diet and all these things are great for one’s quality of life, but not necessarily imperative to be a legendary ball striker.

Hogan was a drinker and smoked two pack a day till he took his last breath. Knudson had a reputation for having several vices I won’t mention here. Trevino was anything but a model of dietary should’s.
Moe would often drink 20 sugar colas a day, and eat greasy foods like no human ever could imagine.

I think we both admire excellence in our respective sports.

Hogan, Moe Norman, Knudson, Trevino, were all great ball strikers, and strong men, but none were winning long drive contests. They used their strength to create acceleration but at a lower clubhead velocity. Their goal was not to achieve maximum clubhead impact velocity at the cost of precision.

I respect your sport, and would actually rather view a long drive contest than a PGA Tour player hitting 8 greens and shooting 67.

To win Olympic medals, and I’m sure to win a long drive event you need tremendous strength, great conditioning, training, diet and all that…..

But to pure a golf ball around a course, it’s a different thing. Stellar weight training, and an extreme fitness regiment as a imperative requirement for accurate ball striking mastery is more that questionable..

Al Barkow

Here is a link to legendary Al Barkow archived on “On the Fringe” radio show. It’s a very interesting interview, as Al discusses the World Golf Championship, which was a major championship in the 1950’s, talks about the Shell’s Wonderful World of Golf series, Chicago, The mob,
Ben Hogan, his accuracy, his mental game, Equalizers, his Five Lessons, Snead’s view of Hogan, Snead’s personality, Shivas Irons,
Zen golf, Weiskopf, Tiger’s putting..

enjoy…

Fair enough Lag…

I just know that a large proportion of PGA professionals now realise that golf and great athleticism go hand in hand, obviously you dont feel that it is necessary to go into that and I am happy to leave it as this is your thread.

Muscular Loading, Range of Motion, Biomechanical efficiency and improved movement patterns are all benefitted by sound conditioning programs – conditioning is not just about weight training and I think that is the mistake that golfers are currently making as they enter the sport specific conditioning arena..

The muscles used to hit a ball straight are somewhat different than hitting a ball as far as possible.

Being in shape is great, nothing wrong with it, I like staying in decent shape too.

The muscles used to hit a golf ball straight are odd, unusual, and not in any way typical of what we would see with fine athletes from other sports.

Even more important is the proper firing and sequencing of these muscles working together, and applying the variety of forces, equal and opposing, habits and intentions.. and a whole lot of intuition for less than full feel shots.

Striking a golf ball properly is not an easy task, very counter intuitive,
and very few shortcuts. It takes some effort, but with proper instruction, and a careful watchful eye, quality ball striking can be learned by most anyone.

Al Barkow interview

Hey Lag, what intrigues me most is this, and a whole lot of intuition for less than full feel shots. as you said you could hit a 6i 200 but with a ‘normal’ shot it goes 170 but also anything under that. Judging the size of hit is such a hard one, it’s a game of feel, not full.

The muscles used to hit a ball straight are somewhat different than hitting a ball as far as possible.

Being in shape is great, nothing wrong with it, I like staying in decent shape too.

The muscles used to hit a golf ball straight are odd, unusual, and not in any way typical of what we would see with fine athletes from other sports.

Even more important is the proper firing and sequencing of these muscles working together, and applying the variety of forces, equal and opposing, habits and intentions.. and a whole lot of intuition for less than full feel shots.

Striking a golf ball properly is not an easy task, very counter intuitive,
and very few shortcuts. It takes some effort, but with proper instruction, and a careful watchful eye, quality ball striking can be learned by most anyone.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Fair enough I thought correct biomechanical motion of a golf swing used the same muscular actions and contractile functionings (ie sequencing) which I did find could be conditioned physically…

Thats cool Lag carry on, my mistake…

RT1:

That was what I thought would happen too mate, must only be the case with the ’ÄúGOOD” tour players… At least you and Lag have the bravery to let us know who you are… Not sure I can take others on face value anymore claiming to be a big time pro when they can't even get contracted custom made equipment…

Junior, why do you take such an aggressive stance with people, it gets you nowhere and wins you few friends?

Has RT1 told us who he is? I haven’t seen that he has, perhaps you could refresh for me, thanks.

Thank you for confirming this for everyone, I already knew that this was the case as when you are truly contracted by a company there is nothing they wont do for you when you are utilising and promoting their equipment. Why do the amateurs by them? Because such and such uses them so they must be good. If you were only designing for amateurs, why would you ever sign pros on endorsement contracts?

Also found it a bit strange when lead taping was the only option ’Äúapparently” available to a ’Äútop line pro”….

I also like the fact mate that you wont let anyone near your tools to build them. I also will rather do it myself to ensure it is done correctly or at the very least take it to someone I truly trust and get hands on in the process to ensure it is done the way you like…

Can you imagine saying to Tiger et al…, sorry these only come in a D1 so you will have to get them lead taped by someone to get the swingweight you desire? Hahahaha… Custom grind, custom fit…

If it smells like cow poo, it usually is… ;)

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Seriously, if Shome decides to tell who he is you are going to feel like such a dick.

You have a bit of growing up to do Junior. I have time for you and I do respect your knowledge in the field of fitness and training. As a person though, if you are as aggressive in real life as you come across on the internet, I’d cross the street to avoid you.

I was back reading the posts I missed when I made the post above. I now see Junior has managed to get shome to leave. What a knob.

Well done Junior you prick. You’ve driven off a guy who could contribute more than most on this entire site.

If it were my site, you’d have a life time ban.

Fucking ridiculous.

Taking a break myself folks, I’m pissed off by the same people too much.

See you in a week or two, or maybe never.

Such a shame, a real shame.

All I can do is implore that you guys hang around and try to see beyond the childish egos? Please, it’s great what you guys offer, it’s much better for you here.

Where the hell is moderation on this forum? Why is this not being controlled?

I moderate other forums, and I’ve never seen where a member can personally attack another member for posts on end without repercussion. Ridiculous.

You know this is one of the rarest forum that I know of where I actually get some meaningful advice off of it, and actually benefit from its contributors. It’s just pitiful that you can have a guy stalk another on the forum until he’s had enough… where are the moderators here? At the very least I’ve suspended posting privileges for personal harassment like this. Every forum has rules, but this place is going to start losing some great contributors (again). Sad.

I’m genuinely at a loss to understand why its so hard to have this type of discussion without tempers becoming frayed, inflamatory language and calling people out. Seems to me to be just a question of respecting that there are going to be diverse opinions even when you believe the weight of majority opinion or empirical facts are on your side.

Shome, I really hope you hang around but respect either way as I, like many I’m sure, have personally enjoyed your contribution to date.

Junior, I hope you hang around as well but can reflect on what has happened here. This does seem to be a repeating pattern in that you start off by making a measured and useful contribution to threads but if you feel as if your views are not universally accepted your reponses get increasingly aggressive and confrontational. You have the unfortunate habit on ocassion of sounding like a man who could start an argument in a room on his own. Just saying that its a free speeech forum or that you don’t care what people think and you are going to call it how you see it doesn’t really cut any ice I’m afraid. No-one expects you to be deferential but over time showing a little more respect would I’m sure result in more respect for your views by reciprocation.

I hope we can get back on track now….

Cheers, Arnie

Showme -

Styles is right – just ignore Junior.

Every time he behaves like an ignorant twat he puts it down to “passion” or some other crap but really, he’s full of sh*t and basically can’t control his inner child.

His heart is sometimes in the right place, but if he reads something wrong he treats this forum like a playground.

Not good enough.

Mods?

We can all learn something from each other, I think at times we have to learn to agree to disagree at times, we all have different perceptions and views at times.
I know in the past my lack of ability to communicate effectively in writting upset people in the past, although through constant battle to improve and doing courses to communicate, to express my knowledge better.

Although it is difficult at times trying to explain something without coming across as being disrespectful to others. Which I have been at fault of doing in the past.

Lag, are yes there is an art in control distances or training one’s self to have this control is a hard skill to master.
teach a full shot using the right movement patterns and firing the muscles in the right sequence easy as. Half shots using muscle control hmm, not easy. It’s ok boys now you know how to hit ful lshots, hit the fairway and learn how to control your muscles to fire in the right sequence for half shots etc a lot of hard work.
You can use certain gym training which is specialized to train go muscles to fire better and be stronger. We do this although half shots etc. hit the practice fairway boys.
Lag I never had a chance to show you a program we have for training movement pattern muscles to fire, we’ll have to touch base

Isn’t it incredible that in life, in general, the nastiest people seem to get their own way and get away with behaviour that most decent folk would never consider.

Shome, its a shame that you feel that you are being driven away, I for one, have learned a great deal from you.

Lag, please continue to sustain the thread.

Junior, you are behaving like a very nasty individual, you may be having a hard time at home or work, but this forum is definitely not the place to vent your spleen.

To have offended so many people is not a good thing…..

I hate to see things “auger-in” like it seems to have here. For all the good that the internet provides, it seems like it also allows for a total disregard for simple civilized interaction. The golf forums seem to be right up there with the political forums….. who’d have thunk it?

Showme….. I love the insight, as I do Lag’s. It’s very difficult to get the “straight scoop” from guys who have been on the big stage. Hope you keep posting.

Anyway…. this is a piece related to the warm-up with weighted bats and clubs. You may have seen it already but it’s interesting. (Bio… you may have to ignore the guys doing the golf section… lol).

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_v...

Robbo

That’s quite interesting. Different to what SMTM and Lag are saying though. It would be interesting to see the same test with someone using a D2 weighted club then a D7 weighted club, not taking into account just distance but accuracy, say 10 shots to 150mtr pin??? Wonder too if they did the test with warm ups on a thin dowel if then they fire the twitch muscles and it’s better. I’ve seen guys warm up on the tee holding the driver backward and swinging the handle, does this work?
Other questions too.

Each time the warm up was done they did full fast swings, what if you do very slow not full swings so the muscles are not trying to fire the club just set the path?

Were these tests done on the same day? Once you’ve hit ten balls you’re warmed up, then swinging heavy would throw it all of? Was there a lengthy gap between tests?

Lag, have you ever felt like you’ve gone too heavy and pulled back the weight some?

I thought the same Stinkler…in part that the first 10 shots at baseball and golf were without weight and then the next 10 shots were after weight…...obviously your swing can deteriorate after hitting 10-15-20 full out drivers in a row….so I guess the technique involved in the actual sequence of the shots should have been addressed as it could be misleading…but interesting stats just the same….would like to see the test being done the other around with weighted first and then regular just to see what occurs
Also….when I have been talking about weight….I have spoken about slow swings with a heavily weighted club to warm up and loosen the muscles and also to feel the positions or area that the club should be moving whilst swinging….not actually flat out swinging a heavy stick.
And when I have spoken about using heavier equipment to actually play with it isn’t like going from a feather to a telegraph pole…it is only a few swingweights that will make the weight feel inconsequential if you had both heavy and light in your hands together at the same time, feeling the difference…but when swung throughout a regular swing the weight difference is noticeable just enough to help your body/arms/torso/hands all control the club head in a similar linked and unitized motion … a lighter club whilst swinging and hitting normally doesn’t seem to allow the entire body to function… For the lesser player I believe light equipment promotes a quicker hand action in getting the club into the ball because the poorer golfer doesn’t use his full range of body to hit the ball anyhow and normally uses all hands anyway and it will cause poor timing as it is helping to quicken up a part of the body that really needs slowing down (the hands) for the lesser golfer….and likewise for the better player light equipment promotes a slower body action because we know the club feels like a feather and it feels like it is moving faster so we feel the need to slow something down to try and make solid contact and get the club moving into the ball how we know it should…. and a loss of distance can often be the effect and certainly a loss of direction and control
Make sense?.... that’s what I believe

SHOWME,

No respect for you either rt…..every thing i say is bogus according to you….you just follow my posts around to try and start an argument

Not trying to argue, but just want an explanation of how a higher center of gravity in an iron will allow the ball to go higher? Please explain this to us. You mentioned this a post or two back, about how the higher center of gravity irons make it tough for the PROS to keep the ball down..Hummm. Seems contradictory to everything I thought..and have found ..higher center should keep the ball down.

ever heard of typing too fast and writing something down how it wasn’t intended?....lower center of gravity…hope that is better for you.

I have old Callaway 3 and 5 Woods that 6 months ago were my favorite, they were pretty light but I hit them ok. After working on many things in my swing, drills, impact bag etc, I got to a point where I couldn’t make them work at all, was thinking to move on. I had them weighed and the suggestion was to increase them, my driver was D2 and they were lighter so they made the woods heavier. I don’t know the exact specs but I can feel the weight change significantly. Now I own these clubs again, I don’t hit them further but straighter more often now my swing is improving. Maybe before they would have been right but as I progress I feel the need to be more in touch with the feel of the club. I’ll get a screening soon and then get all clubs weighed and keep a check on them always.

With you all the way Shome. In law, we have what’s know as the “slip rule” to cover for such contingencies. Even judges make typos and other errors as do court transcribers.

Great to see you are still with us and please don’t leave on account of those few idiots. They think they are being “progressive” and etc, but the more they rant on with their stupid personal attacks; they look even more insecure.