BIO,

We can all learn something from each other, I think at times we have to learn to agree to disagree at times, we all have different perceptions and views at times.
I know in the past my lack of ability to communicate effectively in writting upset people in the past, although through constant battle to improve and doing courses to communicate, to express my knowledge better.

Although it is difficult at times trying to explain something without coming across as being disrespectful to others. Which I have been at fault of doing in the past.

We have disagreed in the past as well. That does not mean that healthy arguements are not good. I have the utmost respect for everyone here(yes you Bio !!) but don’t take it personally when anyone has a different perspective. We are all passionate in our beliefs and hold firm on our opinions. Just keep it clean!!

To ask a question, lag,
how long can you hold the wedge post impact with your 5 iron? I was working on some drills that junior has me trying, and feel I now can delay the wedge by providing a stronger pivot through impact. Compression is of the utmost

Perfect showme..thx

For the lesser player I believe light equipment promotes a quicker hand action in getting the club into the ball because the poorer golfer doesn't use his full range of body to hit the ball anyhow and normally uses all hands anyway and it will cause poor timing as it is helping to quicken up a part of the body that really needs slowing down (the hands) for the lesser golfer….and likewise for the better player light equipment promotes a slower body action because we know the club feels like a feather and it feels like it is moving faster so we feel the need to slow something down to try and make solid contact and get the club moving into the ball how we know it should…. and a loss of distance can often be the effect and certainly a loss of direction and control
Make sense?.... that's what I believe

Showme,

I think that only a good ball striker could have such perception, especially on the other end… (the better player)
That’s just a fantastic observation.

Posts like that are what keep me on this forum…

Rt1

which wedge angle are you referring to for clarity?

Lag, have you ever felt like you've gone too heavy and pulled back the weight some?

Stinkler,

When you put something in your hands, and use it over and over, your body adjusts, strengthens and gets tough….

During my touring years, I swung D2 to D3 mostly… when I was playing best, the club would feel heavy in my hands, the days the club felt light I would not strike the ball as well.

Last year I alternated between 10 or so different sets, just to really experience all the different sets I had picked up….. really as just a collector… and was enjoying the challenge of going out each day with different gear and learning to adjust. I learned a tremendous amount about my golf swing in doing that, and I learned a lot about golf clubs and their design pros and cons, and of course the affects that various shafts would have on ball flight.

I would never dare experiment doing such things while I was on tour.
This would be an example of how you can learn more not being on tour than being on tour.

My best round last year was a 65 with a set of 1970 MT MacGregor Split soles, very light D-0 with regular shafts.. very loose.

This year, a week or so ago, I shot 66 under much tougher conditions with my 1959 Dyna Powers weighing in around E-3. Very heavy overall weight and very stiff shafts..

When I played in my only tournament last Nov, I had to choose a set to play, and I went with my 69 Hogan Bounce soles.. D-2 with X100’s
I brought two sets with me, but after hitting 16 greens the first round
I just played them again and it worked out well.

Now that I have dropped my irons down 6 degrees flatter, after trying to flatten out my swing all year, I finally realized that the best way to flatten your swing is simply to flatten your clubs, and then let your swing “find” that lie angle. Not sure why I didn’t figure that out a long time ago. I only have two sets dropped down right now, my Hogan Bounce Soles, and my 59 Dynas. I can’t even look at my other irons now.. they look like croquet sticks.

What I am really feeling now is that I will be going in a direction of different sets for different playing conditions, and different daily feels.

I am determined also to make an authentic Hogan set, as I believe Hogan had his set, “set up”... with the heel ground off some so it’s sits 5 degrees open, then bent up stronger to compensate for the added loft from the open grind. Super, heavy, super stiff, and super flat.
The 5 o clock rib, built up grips, the whole thing.. so I can possibly learn something there. I have some very strong suspicions why he did that.. so I need to confirm by hitting them. Some of my students
are very Hogan oriented, and I don’t think you can fairly asses Hogan’s protocol unless you understand the methodology behind his equipment. I believe his swing was directly created around the specific tools of his trade. Observation is not enough for me.

Everyday I pick up a club it feels different, always has.. some days light, some days heavier, so if I have different sets, all of different weights, I can just go out with the set the feels right that day. Also
the 62 Turfrider Dynas would be great on wet days with the bigger soles.. looser shafts like S300s if I haven’t played in a couple weeks, and move into the stiffer shafts when I am playing more often. The MT split soles would be ideal for tight lies in the summer… my Hogan PCs for windy days when I need to keep the ball down more… with those experimental Vector shafts, I hit them very low with the high kick point.

Right now I have about 20 sets, so I hope to have that widdled down to my favorite 5 or 10 by years end… and I seem to be gravitating most towards a few of them more than others.. My 53 Tommy Armour Silver Scots are very much a favorite.

I am also having to re work my persimmons and have been re boring the holes flatter so I can swing them properly on the flatter plane.

Do you feel then that different sets work better at certain weights then, depending on sweet spot and flight characteristics? Is it trial and error to find that weight?

I was always a bit mystified by how different the club would feel in my hands from one day to another.. so I think different sets on different days is not a bad idea. It’s not conventional, but I think it has merit.

I do think different sets work better at different weights, of course this is true with shaft flex.

Trial and error absolutely.

Example is my Hogan PC set. The Vector shaft, which has a bubble in the shaft up near the grip, moves the flex point very high, and for me that means the ball goes very low.. so it’s a nice option to go out with on a day when the winds are high, or on a course where “ground game” is desirable.

Lag, very interesting post about using tools that predetermine the type of action that is used i.e. very flat lie angle for a very flat swing.

How flat do you intend to go? I thought you had said that Hogan’s irons were 6 degrees flat yet you say that yours are now 6 degrees flatter which implies even flatter than Hogan?

This would imply an extremely shallow angle of attack coming from way on the inside making huge forearm rotation the dominant hand action?

Okay fair call to all… I believed I was being dismissed as irrelevant (which I still feel is the case with Lag and Showme) and yes it got my back up.. But for the good of the forums and out of respect for the people who count on iseek, I will publically apologise for my behaviour

“TO ALL ISEEK MEMBERS WHO I HAVE OFFENDED BY MY POSTINGS I HEREBY APOLOGISE. TO SHOWME IN PARTICULAR (yes I do know who he is, no I dont feel like a dick as I feel he was just as disrespectful and dismissive to me from the outset) I APOLOGISE IF I HAVE OFFENDED YOU, YOU INSIGHT IS GOOD FOR THE MEMBERS HERE AND I DONT WANT YOU TO FEEL DRIVEN AWAY”

I believed I had something to contribute to you all in terms of the advanced techniques I have personally discovered on my journey that has enabled me to hit the ball the distances I do. Trust me I will be the first to admit that I do not have any special golfing gifts or athletic talent beyond what could be consider above average. I do however have the abilities to train efficiently and smarter than the average bear. I have had the courage to step outside the conventional and have found some pretty amazing things that are currently being used by the elite level golfers and that I believe are truely meant by HK in some of his workings. I also have the qualified expertise and believed I could have shown you how I went about developing a golf specific training program that added 48mph of clubhead speed and over 100 metres to my average drive in only 4 and a half months.

It is evident however that this knowledge is felt irrelevant by the vast majority of members and by the “true” golfers on this site. Believe me, I am not insecure as I know what I have found, and perhaps one day you will see the results of it – I am confident about that. I will happily step back and make no further comment when it comes to instruction. I will merely drop by from time to time to try and hint to steer the people I like in the right direction.

ONCE AGAIN I APOLOGISE AND WILL KEEP MY COMMENTS TO MYSELF…

Junior

It would seem that I posted a very enthusiastic plea for your instruction in your thread about one or two days too late eh?

Not at all Marion, am happy to help you… Check the thread… ;)

i cant believe this thread is still going strong…..
doesn’t seem to be so much Golf machine anymore though,
i like to hear some more of what Mr Doyle had you do when you were studing under him lag…

Hey Junior,stick around buddy,I for one have not been offended,AT ALL.
As for Lag,and showme,Im sure they they are big and old enough to not get too offended by anything anyone says,as the old saying goes”STICKS AND STONES ” and all that,and if they do get offended they will just have to man-up a bit.
Words will never hurt anyone,Lag,showme,please stick around as you both are very good forum contributers,as for junior,you might cut him some slack,what he does for a living deserves it.
In the words of Jeff Fenech

---

I luvs ya all cheers

Nicke,

Take a tip. Forget Doyle for three years and learn how to win friends and influence people from your boss. I will talk later.I meant to get in touch with Dad. Sorry for the sloppy communication.

Thanks Brownman.. I appreciate your support, I didnt say I was going anywhere… It’s guys like you who I stick around for… I wont offer advice or opinions, just answer questions from people who think my knowledge is relevant…

To quote the great Chopper Reid:

“Beethoven had his critics too, see if you can name 3 of them?”

Heh heh heh,luv it

That doesn’t mean at times Beethoven could be a little overbearing, or to direct and forward, or see everything as a personal attack.

However I do see were you are coming from Junior but I think you overreact and have to realise you may be misinterpreting typed, and i emphasis this point because tone and meaning can often be misconstrued, statements as personal attacks.

Cheers

Very true, It also appears the modern day text messages are also misconstrued due to lack of tone and inflection. Perhaps asking for clarification is the best method in future…

“smells like cow poo”

Is there a polite way to interpret that?

Exactly. Talk of Beethoven by Chopper?? Are you serious, for fucks sake????

You can’t hide from your actions with lame little quotes like that, no way.

Your apology was not even close.

Junior by name and Junior by nature.

How many apologies is this that you have posted over a long period of time?

You blew it yet again fella…..address it maturely.

Whatever guys, you are the ones who are keeping it going so that is a sign of maturity too. I have posted an apology take it or leave it. I am not going anywhere as I have as much right to be here and post as much as I wish. I have not been verbally abusive to anyone (think about it before you speak there has been no name calling and no swearing on my part) – unlike some of you – I cant believe you are wasting so much time on me. Think about it. I find it quite amusing that I am the immature one but I am not the one who is stuck on this topic. It is merely a pack mentality where one sheep follows the next…

Like I said there has been an apology written, it was meant with sincerity, if you cant accept it and you cant move on there is not much I can do about it.

But I will be ending this here and not posting on this thread for a period of time in an attempt to be the mature one and get the topic back to providing golf information rather than letting it fester into an immature school ground which it currently is.

Let’s see who the real mature ones are, the true antagonists will feel it necessary to make extra comment after this post. Take note of who they are….

Lag, I’m still throwing around in my head the idea of touch and less than full shots. If I think of a round of say 85 (good for me!), maybe 25 odd full shots, the rest is feel, knock down, pitch and role, getting out from under trees etc, short game or putting. Are you one of these guy that has the clock going? ie 3 o’clock with wedge 1 goes 30 yards etc or are you more creative with this? You talk of hitting several shots with a 6i, do you mentally (or write it down) record how far each different style shot will go? This must mean for say a 145 yard shot you have many options? What are your main deciding factors for choice of shot then?

I don’t use the clock system… just not my thing.. because I sometimes
will use a different tempo, so all that goes out the window..

On crucial feel shots, I take quite a few practice swings at a real speed
and try to get a feeling for the shot.. since I prefer to accelerate through the shot with my swing, I often pick a spot well short of the hole to try to land the ball, then think of how I am going to hit an aggressive shot to that spot. when I actually hit the ball it goes a bit farther than I planned, that way, I end up near the hole and not over the green..

If I try to feather the ball in, I often quit on the shot, and lose the shape of the shot, or just don’t hit it solid..

So I plan short so I can keep an aggressive feeling.

Junior,

Where do you ideally “try” to reach maximum clubhead speed?

Where do you feel you reach maximum clubhead speed?

Where do you ideally want to reach maximum clubhead speed?

Do you prefer an acceleration hit at lower velocity or a higher velocity strike without the clubhead accelerating? ( a momentum strike)

Are bigger heads causing wind drag issues?

Are any of the guys using very small heads to cut down on wind drag?

Excellent, that speaks to me. I have the problem of exactly that. I’ll aim for the hole then in an attempt not to quit I often hit it through the green. That is excellent advice for me, aim short and be aggressive!! Thanks.

Lag.
Rt1

which wedge angle are you referring to for clarity?

The flying wedge ..I feel more emphasis should be placed here and is greatly overlooked . All about impact alignments as you know

ok,

but I really feel that great impact alignments only happen with great impact dynamics, driven by an effective pivot… if the power accumulators are sequenced correctly, it’s amazing how great all the angles and wedges, and lines look..

So many people try to force these static positions, without properly using the dynamic options available to us..

The golf swing is a very complicated action, and I don’t think much gets fixed with simple swing keys..

You really need to get in the trenches and do the hard work, then it all comes together much easier with a symphony of light bulbs..

Lag,

I think it’s interesting you talk about clubhead size and “drag”. Rumor has it this may be the next area of development. Hard to believe that a 460cc driver head could cause enough drag to be significant, but I’ve heard there is something to it. As with a pendulum, it sounds like head sizes may have swung a bit too far to one side and are about to seek equilibrium.

I’ve already started to work back to 365 cc’s, not because I’m a long drive guy that is losing some speed, but more about the weight, the look, and the feel.

Robbo

LAG,

I agree a pivot driven motion will sequence the accumulators, but you rarely hear or read or hear discussion about wrist angles though impact. One of the most important but overlooked .

Yes you and I and others understand what needs to take place in order to compress the ball. The challenge is helping others use the pivot to provide the energy for the speed, maintain pressure points, etc. Most would never have the time to work this out on their own, much less the knowledge.

LAG, JUNIOR

did you read the article in USA Today about the Masters? It was really negative writing about the game of golf in general.

Here is the link….

http://blogs.usatoday.com/o...

Yeah, but boy did they cop a lot a flack for such a crap article!

Junior,

Where do you ideally ’Äútry” to reach maximum clubhead speed?

Where do you feel you reach maximum clubhead speed?

Where do you ideally want to reach maximum clubhead speed?

Do you prefer an acceleration hit at lower velocity or a higher velocity strike without the clubhead accelerating? ( a momentum strike)

Are bigger heads causing wind drag issues?

Are any of the guys using very small heads to cut down on wind drag?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Not sure if I am being set up as I promised not to write on here (hahahaha) but seeing Lag has asked I will happily reply….

Where do you ideally ’Äútry” to reach maximum clubhead speed?

Okay there are 2 schools of thought here… Reach maximum speed at impact… Reach maximum speed after impact.. My opinion is that I personally am trying to reach maximum speed just post contact. I want my highest speed to occur through compression. I know it is only a split second phenomenon but I want to energise the ball through impact…

Where do you feel you reach maximum clubhead speed?

Wow “trick” questions.. haha.. When I hit my best drives I actually feel like the ball “sticks” to the face, the shaft kicks and I can “throw” it off the face. It is a very strange phenomenon and feeling so excuse me if my explanation is not exactly scientific but you just know when you get that specific feeling that the ball is going to go long.. Kind of like a good golfer would feel a flush impact but it is even more powerful. Where do I actually “feel” I reach top speed? On the follow through… I know that is going to sound bizarre but I am actually trying to keep the foot down on the gas until the shaft bounces of my back/neck. I know you and I have discussed the arms flying off the chest (5th power accumulator?) and this is exactly what it feels like.. Constant aggression!

I am actually feeling at the transition (where the wrists set) that I am trying to snap the shaft just under the grip and then I am trying to bounce and snap it across my back/neck on the follow through.. It hasn’t ever happened yet but it is always an intention.

Where do you ideally want to reach maximum clubhead speed?

See the answer to question 1, I am always “trying” to be “ideal”...

Do you prefer an acceleration hit at lower velocity or a higher velocity strike without the clubhead accelerating? ( a momentum strike)

This is actually an interesting topic. My initial thoughts were maximum clubhead speed, however after hitting some monster drives at 135-140 and hitting some duds at 145-150 I re-thought my stance. High acceleration is a MUST! But what is acceleration? The change in velocity over a certain time frame or distance. How do we achieve this? I know try to hold my release as late as possible and then when I do release I try to be super aggressive (there is a moment of float too). By doing this I am trying to create the smallest window of time or the shortest distance possible to create the highest change in velocity. Ideally I would like to think that the club is actually getting faster as it hits the ball.

If you were to punch someone in the chest, does your fist reach maximum speed on impact with the chest or do we accelerate through the person at a spot that is beyond them (Bruce Lee philosophy) to create a leverage advantage? Which would hurt them more?

Are bigger heads causing wind drag issues?

No I dont believe so, and if so I believe it is negligible. As you guys have said ball striking abilities of modern day players are not as good. It is especially more difficult when you are creating clubhead speeds of 140-150 mph. So do we take a larger head to give us the best chance of centred (sweet) contact or do we throw it away for a negligible change in drag and risk coming up short from non centred contact? I know what my choice is…

I have tried a 401 compared to a 460 but I dont think there was an appreciable difference, certainly no measured difference. I was less comfortable actually with the smaller head as the weight was lower than the 460 and it made the shaft react differently which I hated.

I do believe though there is merit in a driver of shorter length than what is allowable though…

Are any of the guys using very small heads to cut down on wind drag?

There are guys using smaller heads for sure, they are in the minority though. I highly doubt that their reasons is less wind drag though. I think it comes down to visually what you like to look at and what gives you confidence.

It is important to note though that our driver heads at 460 are a much different design than the “standard” 460 head. Our volume is in depth (face height) not width (lateral body size). I personally hate the “standard” 460 driver head design, looks like a tennis racquet. Visually our heads look so much smaller as the volume is where I want it, in the face. Please also note our driver faces are thicker in face density (for want of a better word) to withstand the high force impacts… The “trampoline” effect is not there as some people imagine it is. As it stands a good driver head for me lasts about 8-12 weeks. I have had a lot though that have only lasted 1-4 weeks though… Normally the welds give way, or the face just caves in. The also “flat spot” after a number of sessions so they become training drivers until they split…

Thanks for the questions Lag, would be interested to hear your thoughts. Hope the answers were what you were looking for.

Junior

LAG, JUNIOR

did you read the article in USA Today about the Masters? It was really negative writing about the game of golf in general.

Here is the link….

http://blogs.usatoday.com/o…

Wow mate… No a great article, not a great writer… I dont agree with any of his sentiments… but then again I am a golf fan… And a massive fan of Augusta…

Maybe Robert Lipsyte can’t play for nuts and that is why he is prejudiced?

Would love him to stand in front of me bent over on the tee… Okay Robert open you mouth and turn your head a little to the left, I am playing power fade!!

JUNIOR,

Would love him to stand in front of me bent over on the tee… Okay Robert open you mouth and turn your head a little to the left, I am playing power fade!!

My feelings exactly!!

GUYS,

Just letting everyone know I will not have internet access for the next 4 days – this will be a relief to some haha – so if I am not responding to questions or conversations regarding Lag’s questions directed to me on the last page, I will be back tuesday and will clarify anything then.

Have a good Easter all

Junior

Seems everyone was on this forum because of Junior after all; longest pause so far??

BP and Lag have talked about the illusion of the arms coming across the chest. This got me thinking about the timing of the shoulder turn and right arm extension.
Is it viable to modify the mix and/or timing of shoulder turn and right arm extension to modify ball flight characteristics?
ie. Right or wrong, my standard swing uses an early extension of the right arm with minimal shoulder turn, then I turn the shoulders more after extension.
To me it feels like the later the right arm extends after an earlier shoulder turn, the more the arms ‘appear’ to come across the chest because the chest has rotated more prior to extension.
I certainly hit the ball harder with more lag doing this, but I’m not sure if it will cause unwanted side effects in ball flight and swing path.
Do I need to adjust my ball position, stance, etc?
Should I use different combination for different clubs? eg early extension for irons for a harder downward strike. Later extension for woods to hit a more level strike?

It is Easter macs,,,,

Lag, been working on your advice, aim short and be aggressive, working a treat for me. Never had more than a couple of pars in a row and yesterday had 7 in a row, giving me 9 pars on 10 holes, amazing for me. Always focusing on being aggressive with my shots in that way helped so much, it kept me determined and helped remove doubt, quitting has been an issue.
With this in mind are you a several wedges guy? Or do you have a favorite under 100 stick?

It is Easter macs,,,,

Lag, been working on your advice, aim short and be aggressive, working a treat for me. Never had more than a couple of pars in a row and yesterday had 7 in a row, giving me 9 pars on 10 holes, amazing for me. Always focusing on being aggressive with my shots in that way helped so much, it kept me determined and helped remove doubt, quitting has been an issue.
With this in mind are you a several wedges guy? Or do you have a favorite under 100 stick?

Keen newbie to the game, now obsessed.

Thanks also from me Lag, I have found it a great tip for me.

I used the thinking in my round on Friday, I had been sailing past the flag with my wedges on less than full shots. Aim short and be aggressive worked a treat on all bar one hole, and I managed to put the ball pin high in each case.

The “failure” was on the 17th, the pin was tucked forward just past a large bunker guarding the front right. I had about 95m to the front and the pin was probably 3 metres on. I usually hit my PW 115/120m and don’t carry a gap wedge so had to throttle back on the PW. The bunker in front was the aim spot but my mind was obviously not comfortable, plus I was on a slight down slope. I ended up sailing right over the flag to the back of the green, probably 10 metres past. I managed to chip and putt an up and down back from where the ball finished just off the back right edge, so I still manaqed the par.

I probably should have aimed 10 feet to the left, where the bunker was not in play, and there is a little bridge of fairway between the front bunkers leading up to the green front. I think I need to learn to spend just a little more time planning and thinking out the shot in my head, I tend to be a very fast player and sometimes regret my haste!

Stinkler..

I carry a 48 Degree magic wedge, it is an old MacGregor Split sole,
meaning the sole has two levels. Incredible club. They don’t make anything like that anymore, but I think it is a lost secret to wedge play.

I carry a 56 degree sand wedge. Depending on the course I play, I have several.. and they very upon the type of sand. I use it for out of thick rough around the greens, and off the fairway if I have a good lie.
I’m not at all afraid to open up the face of my split sole wedge, as it has very little bounce, and I can nip it off hardpan too.

I only use my sand wedge with an open face. Very rarely would I hit a straight on shot with it.

My irons are bent 6 degrees flat, but my sand wedge is 2 degrees upright in lie. The reason I do this is so I can swing on the same flat swingplane with an open face. In other words, if I were to sit my sand wedge down as my other clubs the toe would be way up in the air, but if I were to open the face, it then would sit flat like my other irons… so I can swing on the same angle plane as the rest of my set, but with an open face.. it’s a very clever trick..

So only two wedges..

50 yards, 80, 100.110 120, it’s all visual and feel for me, just like chipping or lag putting.. trying to calculate a yardage, and then try to swing to 9 or 10 o clock or whatever, just take my mind out of the shot…. I like to feel my shot… and I use the same thought process as I do for chipping and lag putting..

I take a practice swing, the first too hard, the next too soft, then just bracket that in until I am right feeling with the shot, then quickly execute and tap in the birdie!

I love playing “feel” golf, and when my feel is good, I find my distance control to be better than when I was mentally crippling myself over exact yardages..

The more you “feel” this game the better you will play..

I’m glad to hear that tip helped out.. it really works well, and keeps things aggressive.. after some time, it will become just second nature, and that is the way to you’ll soon feel your shots..

Is it viable to modify the mix and/or timing of shoulder turn and right arm extension to modify ball flight characteristics?

ie. Right or wrong, my standard swing uses an early extension of the right arm with minimal shoulder turn, then I turn the shoulders more after extension.

You are talking about the downswing?

To me it feels like the later the right arm extends after an earlier shoulder turn, the more the arms ‘appear' to come across the chest because the chest has rotated more prior to extension.

That makes sense….

I certainly hit the ball harder with more lag doing this, but I'm not sure if it will cause unwanted side effects in ball flight and swing path.

It can certainly contribute to OTT if the shoulders are turning flat.

Do I need to adjust my ball position, stance, etc?

No, you shouldn’t have to..

Should I use different combination for different clubs?

Unless you are a touring pro, and playing everyday, I would go with a simpler protocol… even pros make things too complex for my tastes.. look at Furyk and Perry.

eg early extension for irons for a harder downward strike. Later extension for woods to hit a more level strike?

That kind of happens anyway due to the length of the club..

Comment on Angel Cabrera by Charlie Epp(his swing coach):
’ÄúHe's one of the best iron players I've ever seen. He's Hoganesque,'' said Epps, likening him to the great Ben Hogan. ’ÄúHe hits the ball so solid and his lower-body work is similar to the way Hogan played.

Very steep coming down, and traps it.. very good golf swing, but not Hoganesque…

We will never see a Hogan golf swing again.. unless equipment rules change. I like his swing… (Angel)

You mentioned Kenny Perry having an overly complex swing. I heard the commentator saying his stock shot is a pull hook.
Do you think his swing is just a collection of compensations?
His swing looks like a cross-eyed lumberjack swinging an axe to me. ;)

Thing is – logically – everyone’s swing is a heap of compensations to one extent or another…...

There’s a great quote from a famous social scientist along the lines that if we stopped doing everything we apparently do for no reason and that is apparently of no value to us, we’d probably die!

Point being you shouldn’t mess with things unless you know very clearly what you’re doing and why…..

It’s (edit: the swing) not a natrual motion.

Very nice,
Neither’s typing natrual! lol, sorry couldn’t help myself.
That’s a good saying, I’ll remember that for a long time I reckon.
C’mon for just one minute you pictured that lumberjack.

Hey all
The TV guys said the same Hoganesque thing about Chad Campbell; IMO his does look like 2M3 swing. Opinion Lag?

I too tried the aggressive swing thought yesterday. I have a question regarding it though.

When you say aim short and be aggressive, are you taking a club that has enough to get to the target then looking short and being aggressive, or are you taking one club less than you need and hitting harder?

I went with taking enough club to get me there but aiming short and hitting hard, is this correct?

btw, it seems that whoever wins the Masters gets tagged with a very Hogan-like swing.

So far this year, I have heard Campbell, Cabrera and Perry all described as Hogan like! I don’t think any of them are Hogan like.

Perry? Surely not….

Campbell does a bit though?

even I’m a bit like Hogan!!!!!

we both hold it at the same end ;-)

Nice swing there Styles….. looked like a nice shot too!!
You are right…..they all talk Hogan….the only similarity between many of these guys is that they have a club in their hands. They only mention Immelman and Campbell as looking like Hogan because they swing it on a flatter plane than most of the players of the past 30 years…. but really not that close to how Hogan moved the club and body

I don’t believe you can get anywhere near Hogan unless you use the tools of Hogan’s trade.. his clubs… and I am not talking about a set of stock Hogan irons, new or vintage off the shelf.

Hogan’s swing is directly derivative from his unique golf clubs. The heaviness, flatness, and the 5 degree open grind, and the super stiff shafts. There is no way that any clubs in the modern age are anything even remotely similar.. We will not see a Hoganisque swing again, unless someone sets up their clubs this way. Hogan’s swing was Hogan’s clubs..

Now if we want to look at a true understudy of Hogan, then we would look no farther than George Knudson. George knew what Hogan did I can assure anyone. Just look at these pics..

This is Hoganesque …. everyone else? NO!!!!!

If you look at Knudson,
it’s all there, the dynamics create all the lines, the angles,
the only difference is that George was taller so he just bent his
knees more, which allowed him lower his center of gravity,
and then strike the ball from exactly the same plane as Hogan
did.. brilliant..

So if you want to study Hogan, and are slightly taller that Hogan, and want to hit like Hogan, than this is how you get there, not Chad Campbell, not Angel, not Trevor…

Start with the equipment and work it from there.

great pictures Lag.

I can see that Hogan’s hips are more open in frame 4. That of course could be down to the shape of shot he is trying to hit.

Should we be trying to keep our shoulders (and hips) pointing at the target at impact?

we’ll these are just general frames.. a millisecond of deviation can change the look of a frame, and you are correct, these are two great shot makers, and we have no idea really what was going through their bodies to hit these probably very different shots..

However, it’s quite obvious that Knudson was all about Hogan..

Don’t see anyone even close today..

The difference in Hogan and knudson’s hips is that Knudson had more knee bend, so the hip can’t quite clear out as much.. but ….

The torso rotation is still quite similar, because the torso I believe in this case is pulling the lower body post impact rather than the other way around.

My live prediction for the Masters..

Perry’s pause move will fail him on the ballstriking end..
Campbell’s trap move will fail with a right shot.
Angel is my pick.

Good call Lag….....

Lag, concerning the sequence that you posted with Hogan and Knudson; would you comment on the last two frames of Hogan and what you think is going on in that would allow the left arm and elbow position especially in the last picture?

Thank you.

well,

The left arm folds up just as the right arm folds up on the backswing..
The only difference is that there is great motivation to accelerate the club post impact, rather than just loading up the backswing..
different purpose..

Also, the pivot is pinning the arm on the body on the post impact action, where the backswing the pivot is pulling on the arm in an opposing way..

It can look a bit like a chicken wing from behind, because they are both holding off release.. there is no flipping it over with these guys…

When they finish, the clubshaft will be square to their shoulders with the irons..

The pressure continues to be imparted and resists the flipping or rolling over of the club.

“As I said, Hogan was my model. Before long, people were saying I looked more like Hogan than Hogan himself. I took that as a great compliment.”

George Knudson

Thanks Lag, I agree, but I do believe that there is a specific move that Hogan makes that instead of holding off the release makes it so that the release just doesn’t take over. This same move also increases clubhead speed through the ball. I was just wondering if anybody else thought the same as I do. Is there a move in Hogans swing that you think he performs that you haven’t shared? This move would occur just before impact and through the ball. This move I have never heard talked about and some would consider it heresy, but I don’t believe that it is.

I hope that this isn’t coming across as antagonistic, it is not meant that way at all, only in the attitude of asking and discussing and most imortantly learning.

You guys have to kidding yourselves if you try and swing like Knudson and Hogan, No one swings it the same, There’s only one Hogan and no will swing it like Hogan,
You’d need the same clubs,the same mechanics and same biomechanical function.
We’ve seen 10 of thousands of golf swing data and we are yet to see anyone have the exact biomechanical function and movement patterns.
Sure you can have the same kinetic link sequence feet,hips,upper body, arms and club head, although the segments speeds for each aren’t the same. Everyone is different and yet to see two swings the same and you won’t either.
Why waste your life for? Now one will swing it the same as Hogan, there’s only one Ben Hogan.
Why not just create a swing for you?

Lag, clubs weren’t what molded hogans swing, if this was true hogan wouldn’t have to had fight a hook in his early years.

Hogans accident improve his swing, he had to change how he moved, for the better,

Bio, I’m not sure if your post was directed at my questions personally or just the overall questions of this thread. I never once mentioned swinging like Hogan, I have asked about a specific move that I believe that Hogan made that whether he did or not, it has helped my control of the golfball. This move has helped me minimize pull hooks that have been the main miss of my swing.

I would love to have the ability to swing in one of your studios and see what changes this move shows in your analysis. I don’t have that luxury, so I can only judge by ballflight and scores.

Bio, I don’t understand why you are so critical of everybody. I think that most of us believe in your analysis and training, we just don’t have access to it. If we don’t have access to it, then we have to use what is available. You act like everyone of us can just walk down the street and get analyzed by you. If you want to be so critical, then make it easily accessible and affordable for everyone of us to get analyzed or give us enough direct information that we can improve our swing. What you have to offer and what you are able to offer on this forum are miles apart, and that is understandable, but for the most part you are not able to give us any information that we can use to improve our golf game. So really why don’t you either stay out or offer something tangible that we can use.

I too tried the aggressive swing thought yesterday. I have a question regarding it though.

When you say aim short and be aggressive, are you taking a club that has enough to get to the target then looking short and being aggressive, or are you taking one club less than you need and hitting harder?

I went with taking enough club to get me there but aiming short and hitting hard, is this correct?

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

a lot of posts yesterday and you may have missed this question Lag. What do you do?

Styles,

This is dealing with less than full shots..
how to stay aggressive and not quit on the partial swings..
If I am 140 and I would usually hit an 8 iron, but because of the shape of the green I feel it better to come in lower, I might pull a 6 iron.. then I’ll pick a spot just short of the green, and take a couple practice swings to get a feel for how hard I want to hit that shot to land it short, then as I strike the ball, I just give it a bit more force, to keep the swing aggressive, and the ball carries just a bit farther, but now with nice compression and spin, lands into the front 1/4 of the green and works nicely back to the pin..

I’m glad this is helping some of you out…

it really works good both mentally and with the golf ball dynamics.

Bio,

I don’t think I ever said that anyone should biomechanically try to duplicate Ben Hogan, as we know this is not possible..

George Knudson shows us that it is possible to wrap yourself in the concepts, and apply them..

Learning the mechanics, and physics behind great strikers like Hogan, Moe, Knudson, Trevino is possible to duplicate.

Look at Olympic Gymnastics.. they are actually judged on how well they perform certain athletic moves, based on results, but also on form, balance, and execution. No two athletes are the same in muscle genetics and so forth, but they can learn to sequence the flow of their efforts to work on the rings, the balance beam, the floor mats, and so forth. Figure skaters will go into spins utilizing laws of physics and with great technique and precision. Just leaving the golf swing to a my way only leaves everyone right where they are now..

There is a tremendous wealth of knowledge in studying the great ball strikers, if you know what to look for.

Also, there is no doubting that a golf swing will develop from the gear that is being used.. If you swing lightweight clubs, or heavy clubs, everything changes dramatically in the swing. Flat or upright, open or closed faces or club grinds changes the protocol for #3 accumulator.

If I go to the gym and work out pressing 30 pounds with lots of reps, or 100 pounds with less reps, my body will respond totally differently over the course of time..

I think this is the same argument for golf clubs also.. the body adapts to the tools you put in your hands over time.

My live prediction for the Masters..

Perry's pause move will fail him on the ballstriking end..
Campbell's trap move will fail with a right shot.
Angel is my pick.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I had to laugh when I read that prediction…..you posted it right as the players were hitting off the 1st playoff hole and you were spot on !!!
Campbell pushed it right into the greenside trap… done
Perry went right on 1st playoff hole and left on 2nd playoff hole… done
Cabrera hit a poor drive on 1st playoff but recovered and then played 2nd playoff hole to perfection for the win
Not a guess based on assumption or luck…but a prediction based on swing formation and you picked it spot on.
Good stuff

hacking dog,

I really think you are making a wonderful observation, and I hope soon I can give better insight into it from direct and personal knowledge.

Hogan’s grip, very weak with the right hand, and the 5 degree open grind put his club more open at P3 than any golfer in history.

“I wish I had 3 right hands” is testament to this I believe. Have messed with this myself, and have failed because I don’t have a proper Hogan golf club.. I suspect that once I build one, I’ll be able to properly give better insight into your question..

I certainly understand the “3 right hand” thing, as I use that myself, but I am not sure I fully understand THE DEGREE of intensity Hogan both felt and applied regarding that.. 5 Degrees is HUGE when talking about a golf swing, not just the look and shape from the observation deck, but also muscular implications involved to get the face back to square WHILE ALSO HOLDING SHAFT FLEX! not just flipping it closed.

I certainly have my suspicions, but I like to test drive any concepts I put forth to students before I make any claims of direct knowledge.

Hopefully more on this later in the months (years) to come..

Knudson knew because you can see it with his ball striking.

Showme,

We have all felt our minds turn into a soggy mush soup under pressure. For some it’s a weekend match at the club, for others it’s sudden death at Augusta.

The big pause thing that Perry does is just not going to work at all when the chips are really down. Augusta has always been a true test of the mind, because if you hit it in the wrong place you are DEAD! ....not like other tour events where it’s just a chip from some light rough or a perfect lie in a greenside bunker at “TPC THIS WEEK”.

Thank goodness, 18 and 10 still play like they should.. 18 more than 10 though.

When 10 used to be a long iron second shot from a downhill sloping lie it put the player to the ultimate mental test, and a test of technique.

Even with a mid iron, it still buckled Perry’s mind.

Cabrera has the best golf swing of the three in my opinion, and combined with the confidence from already winning the US Open,
and the revenge factor from De Vicenzo’s 1968 slip up from the Argentina history book, all seemed a right crowning for Cabrera.

I was rooting for him.

Anytime I bring up De Vicenzo, I feel it only fair to remind everyone that he did also win THE OPEN in 67. People love to focus on the scorecard thing, and not what an amazing champion and player he was…

Take a moment to view
Roberto De Vicenzo and understand what a legendary player he was.
Also one of the great golf swings of all time in my opinion. Everything I believe in is right there.

I don’t know if you guys are talking about Hogan’s left elbow through impact or not, but this is something that I’ve been thinking about for some time. He talked about not being able to fit a razor blade between his left arm and chest, which may very well have been his feeling and it kept him connected back and down, but through the ball, especially in his later years, seems to be a different story. A ‘chicken winging’ of sorts of the left elbow through the ball is pretty powerful, not to mention it seems to be part of natural motion. Sadlowski does it, as do baseball hitters and some other sports that work on a similar plane to golf. If you guys are not talking about that, have you ever thought about it? It’s an interesting area to look at, one of those unquestioned truths that I’ve been questioning. The elbow seems to be part of the chain of acceleration but never gets utilized if the upper arm is stuck to the body. Any thoughts on whys or why nots, or is this sacrilegious crazy talk? It’s always fun to question truths to see what’s on the other side…..
Another thought on Hogan that I’d be interested in thoughts on is this 3 right hands idea. It seems to me that Hogan’s feeling of using 3 right hands through the ball had the opposite effect of what he intended. I think he utilized centrifugal force to keep the toe lagging behind in the race since that’s where most of the head weight is. I think he said in the interview part in the revised edition of his book, that the harder he tried to close the face, the less chance he had of hooking it. That speaks to this intentional or unintentional use of physics to actually keep the face open by trying to close it. I honestly wonder if the mass and momentum of the club head is more important to hitting it straight than is the direction the face is pointing- to an extent, obviously. Maybe it’s because he wanted to anything other than hook it, and as a result, had zero fear of it going right, that he could be as seemingly unconcerned about the face as he was. Most people work to square the face up in order to not miss it right, I doubt missing right ever came into his mind!

Lag, thanks for your response and I will keep working with it and on it. Up to this point and including today, it has made a vast improvement. I look forward to your findings in the future and I find it refreshing for someone to say that at this point that they just aren’t sure. That lets us know that you will keep working on it and if you find it good or bad you will let us know either way and also why it is good or bad.

BOMGOLF222, You are discussing what I am experimenting with. The “chicken winging”, for me, must be done by a very specific, intentional move that for now increases my clubhead speed and has made it impossible for me to hit more than a 3 or 4 yard draw and allows me to hit a nice, powerful fade when needed.

Hacking dog,
I didn’t aim anything at you at all.
I’m not being critical, I’m putting it how it is,What people don’t understand is hogans mechanics is the end result of his movement patterns. It’s his biomechanical function is the key and essence of hogans swing. Without having this you won’t get the same results.
Sure you can cosmetically look like hogan, but you don’t have the essences of biomechanical function to get the end result or ball striking.
Hogan,Moe Norman, Greg Norman have the similar kinetic sequences, feet,hips,upper body arms and hands, their swings aren’t the same although one thing they have in common is they are all great ball strikers.
By trying to swing like you Hogan your trying to swing to a position,instead of using a fluid motion to hit the ball.
I’ve never tried to achieve flat left wrist it’s a results of my movement patterns which allows this to occur.

What I’m saying is for the average guy, why waste your life trying to achieve something which is impossible to do and we are yet to see anyone achieve swinging exactly like hogan and get the same ball striking. Unless you can create a similar biomechanical movement patterns as hogan, your not going to get results.
Think about how many thousands of people have tried and failed, heaps
Hogan created his angles naturally he didn’t seek them, they developed by the way his biomechanical function developed over the years.
Like Greg Norman his swing mechanics have never changed, the changes you seen was Norman changed his biomechanical function as the end results his mechanics change naturally.

Hd You don’t need to come into a studio to be screened this is what we have done is made it affordable and accessible to the masses. We screen you in any environment out doors and indoors. We can screen you any where anytime. If you want to be screened I can arrange for you to be screened. We can come to you and is $250 U.S which includes the training to change your movement patterns or $350 Aus. ? How is this expensive, you get a screening and training and we come to you it’s pretty cheap.
If you want to be screened hacking dog email me bome01@hotmail.com and we will hook you up.

Guru
Can you please do some about this page leaving out text on the right margin. I think this happened with a previous page too. Any one having the same issue.

Lag, please say some more on Perry’s pause move and Chad Campbell’s trap move that you mentioned above. Why do you say that those moves will (did in fact) lead to their demise during the playoff.

Bio,
Thank you for your reply and explaining your intentions regarding your posts. I agree that positions by themselves don’t matter without the dynamics to go with the positions and that the dynamics create the positions. For some people this comes very naturally and for others, well we have all seen swings that make us chuckle. For some people, they have to learn some positions and then through continued education have to learn how those positions are achieved from dynamic movements.
I also appreciate your clarification regarding the screening and what is involved. I am going to take you up on your offer and I will be contacting you for your help in setting this up. I was hoping that you might spend a little time explaining the screening process and what is involved. I understand completely that you cannot give many details, but how about just a simple overview of what a person can expect when they contact and set up an appointment for your help. I think a lot of people would be interested in an overview of what happens and also how to get the process started.

Lag,
The issues are already there, light clubs possibly have an effect which is fueling the issue they had and could possible be effecting them.
We are looking into this, we are aware this could be an issue.
Although as I said they already had a movement issue and the light clubs could effect them only to dominantly using the wrong movement patterns.
Although heavier can have them same effect.
But if they sorted out their movement patterns in the first place wouldn’t matter what clubs they used the only thing relivant to consider is the correct lie angle, if thats’ right they are sweet.
It’ boils down to day one do they have the correct biomechanical function in the first place.
Stick to science boys not views and beliefs, lets research this first.
This is where I bang my head against the wall, it’s all related to biomehanical function. That’s the key problem for most people.
Lag i use to coach in my day once and I realised it’s not mechanics,it’s not clubs the key problem is biomechanical function. Mechanics and clubs are only a minor part to the issues.
The bigger picture

Bio,

biomechanics:

1. (used with a sing. verb) The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure.

Just for clarity on this forum, is this an acceptable definition of Biomechanics?

I think a lot of people here are confused as to what exactly is Biomechanics…

What would be your definition if this is not suitable?

Bio, is there somewhere we can go to see what you do, and maybe get some independent analysis of your product?

Numbers..

Think of it this way..
If your golf swing is based upon a big pause at the top, what happens if you rush it?

Perry obviously feels he has to wait for a split second for things to settle down up there, before he can pull the trigger and start his downswing. It screams of something very manipulated and contrived to compensate for any number of mechanical issues.

For instance, it could be his grip slips if he has too quick a change in direction, or he can’t find his P3 4:30 line unless he does this little hoist and pause thing he does..

When a player is feeling the heat, the weak link is the first to go..
and what usually happens is, as your pulse rate goes up, your muscles tighten up, things get edgy and jumpy, and pauses and gaps like to close up.. because pauses and these flinchy moves often are masking another issue.

The great ball strikers are in constant motion from their forward press to their finish swivel… there is a fluidity and a motion that keeps the whole thing flowing. If the action starts well it finishes well with good intention.

Now if you pause, your backswing is dependent upon your initial takeaway to get to the top,then things have to feel right there again, before you start down.. so it makes golf twice as hard as it needs to be. Even if Perry felt great at address and to the top, if the slightest “flight or fight” response is felt, and feels the pause was rushed, the conscious mind can take over for a spit second, and try to make a conscious correction on the way down which usually spells

D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R

He’s a great player, but not many guys have to mind power under pressure to deal with a pause, Nicklaus, and…............................?

Now as far as Campbell..

He is obsessed apparently with Hogan, so much that he even is a member at Shady Oaks… but I can assure you, he is trying to short cut the Hogan move in too many ways.. and he is not anywhere near as open with the clubface at P3 as Hogan was..

Hogan was so open he could release the club as hard as he wanted and left was out of the picture.. Hogan describes how his swing got better under pressure, because the flight or fight response allowed him to just attack the ball and release it with all he had..

Now with Campbell, he is not as open and he knows he can’t release it as hard as Hogan could or else he might hook the crap out of it, so he bails right under pressure. He probably feels he needs to relax into impact to fight off the toad in his throat that’s stopping him from breathing, and relaxing is not what he need to be doing with his golf swing.

The thing that makes Tiger so good under pressure is that he looks really tight and firm through the ball under pressure, not relaxed. It is very aggressive looking.

So that’s how I see it..

That’s why I predicted it the way I did..

I’m not claiming to be any kind of golf Swami! lol

BOMGOLF222,

Those are some excellent observations there… I can tell you are quite a thinker! Good stuff to ponder..

In my soon to be released book… ( my version of MORAD that was supposed to come out in 1989! lol) I did a chapter on the pros and cons of the chicken wing.

The chicken wing tends to steepen the shaft post impact, which results typically in a more heel heavy divot.. depending on if the torso is lifting or crouching through impact..

There is an attempt to shorten swing radius but pick up rotational speed in the process.

If done correctly, it’s not as bad as people think.. but I say this with Kid Gloves… IF DONE CORRECTLY !!!!!

Hogan’s left shoulder was up a bit post impact, which would seem to stem from a lot of axis tilt through impact.

I suppose that is why I admire Peter Senior’s move post impact, because he really desires to keep the shoulders more level, and it looks pretty crazy to most people, but I really see the method to his madness, in fact I really think it’s wonderful stuff. It just throws a wee bit more whip and snap into the shaft through the impact arena.

Interesting topic Lag, here is Sadlowski “Chicken Winging” (photo 6) is this an attempt to increase rotational speed? What would be the benefit?

Not that you would ever teach it or try to emulate it…

Sadlowski Chicken Winging

That is one interesting golf swing …I love the angle hinge orbit pull as a huge power move.. great stuff.. I’m going to post a photo of that over on Prots thread for those who should actually be celebrating that they are now hooking the ball! I love how he saves right arm past impact, and just keeps turning the hand dial to the right..

fun..

It's certainly consistent with what both Hogan and Snead talk about.

… I love the feeling of a ton of #3 coming into impact, (fully turned and rotated open clubface) but I don't like it then rolling over…

it's more like a door hitting the jamb… you could think of the wall as the pivot, so once that door hits the jamb, that's it for #3…. done.. spent over… no more… then the whole wall moves, the master accumulator, and just takes over from there over to P4. The wrist cock #2 resist the CF inline position as much as possible too, holding wrist cock though and beyond impact…

This was taken from a post on page 71. Lag I am wondering what happens if you take this approach but do not have the hand speed or strength to square the face before the ball leaves the face?

I am wondering if this is going to give you a shot that starts right of the target line (assuming you’re aligned to the target line) and fades away a bit? I am also wondering if you could still get reasonable length from this?

Quoting Bomgolf 22:

“I think he (Ben Hogan) said in the interview part in the revised edition of his book, that the harder he tried to close the face, the less chance he had of hooking it.”

This to me is the genius of the supination chapter in five lessons.

My reading is that cecause Hogan had a move which both shut the club face AND made him swing faster at the same time…......instead of two independent moves achieving those aims separately.

My reading of 5 Lessons (and a little experimentation) tell me that—basically, the clubface could not outrace the swingspeed (and therefore hook) because the clubface and the swingspeed were governed by the same thing….....

(BTW: If the screwed up page thing happens, and you really want to read the post, copy and paste it into Word and it will all be there).

EDIT – NB I’m saying ‘governed’ – not ‘powered’ as such….

Weetbix,

Yes, you nailed it.. that is exactly what happens..
The great thing about learning or I should say building strength in the hand rotation is that once you have that, it’s yours.. if you build and train the muscles to do this deliberately, it’s much easier to keep this day in and day out, rather than the release being instigated by steady even acceleration, dead hands, CF taking over, and just that whole thing dealing with timing and feel. I just don’t in any way shape or form see that as being more reliable, especially under pressure.

That’s why you see so many great pivot driven hitters.

My reading is that because Hogan had a move which both shut the club face AND made him swing faster at the same time……...instead of two independent moves achieving those aims separately.

Beez,

can you expand on this a bit? I want to make sure I understand what you are saying here..

Sure thing -

I think the supination – the hand action – was essentially tied to the pivot meaning that once he got set up right, Hogan couldn’t miss.

The back of the left hand (recall that illustration of it rolling over in 5 Lessons) rolled based on what the pivot did…..it is tied to the pivot via Hogan’s left arm on his chest.

So, if the pivot went quicker, the supination (shutting of the clubface) happened faster.

The steering wheel and the accelerator both working off the same input….....

I am one of Lag’s students and thought that this post was timely….

Lag,

Your predictions came true. I was hating the way I was hitting it the last two weeks, even worse hooks with the module 2 foot action.

I had no idea that you were actually trying to create a default hook as the default pattern of this swing.

Some more practice today and some startling revelations…feels like an orchestra is stirring….

To hit a straight shot I need to angle hinge big time. To hit a fade. I have to make an enormous effort to vertical hinge, in other words huge feel as the club is wrenched out of its natural orbit so huge sensation of control like never before, feels like I need to make big movements for little effect, just like you predicted and its quite nice to know that I have a heavy draw to chase a ball back to a back left pin if I need it!!

Whats amazing that it seems to work even for little pitches/chips!

Also another penny dropped today, I was thinking about the kinetic chain model of feet/hips/upperbody/arms to create power…..Something I now realise is that the real foot action starts when the mass returns to the left leg, then the torsional forces create the hip action which drives and supports the upper body action then the hand action comes in last and at this final stage, I now have feel and control that I never even realised existed!

Played six holes tonight, all greens in regulation, on the par 5 in two.

I know that this form may be temporary but I am enjoying it while I can!

Aiguille,
Where did you see this kinetic chain model?
And who show you this model?

Thanks, Lag. Yeah lots of questions and thoughts. I’ve always been drawn to understanding the game in whatever way I can.
Hacking Dog, yeah that elbow a big area I think- it definitely deserves a look, especially if you’re getting good results with it.
Lag, you saying that it can steepen the club’s release kind of makes sense in relation to Sadlowski too. He’s quite steep on the way down so maybe that elbow out enables the free steeper release in response to that? Maybe? Hagen and Vardon used it too. In the modern era there’s Goosen, Westwood, and Sergio that I know of but I’ve been looking for more. Westwood is very steep with his shoulders through the ball and Goosen definitely responds to a little OTT move, but Sergio is very rounded with the club, almost perpendicular to his spine(w driver), so for him it seems like just a power move. I read John Jacobs describe Vardon as throwing a frisbee through the ball which I really like if you’ve got an active left arm. But that does open up the idea of a sort of flipping, but in a different way. In looking into frisbee throwing, apparently wrist rotation is ‘bad move’ in their world- the wrist should move neutrally up and down on the arm plane- I can see this in Sadlowski for sure- you could say that he ‘flips’ it with how cupped his left wrist looks through the ball, but I think it’s just neutral, at least at impact. But the club and left arm are basically one line for him through the ball so that straight frisbee style release would work perfectly for him. He does say that he’s all hands and club from the top to create as much speed as he can. But they say he’s the first 2 lever swinger so analyzing his swing from pictures or vids is speculative. I was sure that this frisbee backhand idea was the structure that most suited golf until I discovered drive loading and embraced my right side. But I’ve been a right sider in denial for my whole life- I guess I’m only really learning how to use it properly.
Interesting stuff for sure…..
Beezneeds- to me supenation is possibly the last link in the chain of acceleration and not a thing in and of itself. And I think does work like I think you’re saying, if I understand you. Maybe the left elbow could do some of the work that we’ve always forced the wrist to do? I’m not sure yet. I was reading a post from someone- I can’t remember who, but he was talking about chicken winging helping him but thought that he was cheating the move- I wondered if he may have been on the right track. Maybe. Again, these are all questions. Any thoughts anyone?
I know I’ve gone on about him a bit, but purely from a power production perspective, Sadlowski is a great study. At impact the shaft releases the head in a crazy move for presumably such a stiff shaft, it’s kind of reminiscent of the old days actually. But something has to be stopping or slowing down considerably for this release of the shaft to take place. What’s it running into? You could go from the hands all the way to his feet to find the answer, but the left elbow has to be a big player in it. Not sure which point yet. Junior, do you have any thoughts on this? I’d love to get your input from a long driving perspective…....

Lag/John Thank you for your thread and took me 5 days to catch up reading but truly eye opening and well worth it. My first post here. Your points are refreshing and true about USGA and R and A selling out this game to industry manufactures.

Hogan talked about how if the golf swing is executed properly, there is no timing.. I think there's a big clue there

Like your style just cant wait for your book and have so many questions. Mr Hogan’s pivot with 2-M-3 TGM version that only you have dissected uniquely with the material in the book itself. You did mention something about Mr Hogan right foot drag and knew why it happen could you elaborate on this.

JuNiOR

Hahahaha Why are you signing Junior? Trademark infringement may have occured!! haha

You all do my head in what bloody secret has hogan got.
what is the secret? what did hogan have not one of you on this forum have and I mean no one.
IS AN AWESOME KINETIC LINK, PURE BIOMECHANICAL FUNCTION.
thats it , that’s his secret .
You guys talk 95% bullshit about hogan and about 5% truth.
Hogan is easy to work out how he moved and how he achieved what he did, it’s not the mechanical mumbo jumbo junk your talking about.
How many years have you all been trying for and absolutely no one has achieved swinging like hogan.
You all might be intellectually intelligent, although comes to common sense I raise the question? . For years all of you are chasing mechanics, how far have you progressed not far, have you ever stopped and asked the question maybe it’s not mechanics, may it’s a bigger picture. There is.

How do you know Hogan had an awesome kinetic link?

I had the opportunity to speak with Bio yesterday and he really does know his stuff.

It might be worth your while talking to the guy and giving him a chance to explain in detail his comprehensive understanding of the golf swing.

It seems that there are others like Aussie Bomber who think the same thing.

Come on Bio you are being a bit harsh here mate, of course there is a “secret”...

Keep the left arm straight and the head down, make a full shoulder turn but try not to turn your hips, remember your X factor and dont forget to create your Y factor on the way down. Be sure to fully set the wrists but dont swing past parallel, dont overswing but transfer your weight to the right side on the backswing without swaying. Start back down beginning with your hips and ensuring you transfer your weight back to your left side. Remember to do this by turning not sliding! Tuck your right elbow and maintain pressure point 3 awarness, still keeping that left arm straight. Maintain your spinal tilt and your posture whilst trying to stay behind the ball and retaining your power angle as long as possible. Here you need to decide whether you swing in which case you will pull with the left hand or hit in which case you will push with your right hand. If you decide to swit do both. Firm up your left side, making sure you are swinging from the inside (be sure to aim at the inner aft of the ball if you can find it). Try to release fully swinging at 80% of your natural power or definitely not over 95%, make sure your deliver the clubface squarely but do this by rolling your wrists, this is the power move where your hands perform a screwdriver operation. Ensure that you follow through fully and swing through impact, avoid the temptation to hit at the ball, ignore this depending on whether you are a hitter or a swinger and whatever you do, DONT LOOK UP! If you look up you will see a bad shot! Repeat this sequence a million times until it becomes part of your subconscious motor patterns and you can summarise it into no more than 2 concise swing thoughts, one on the back swing and one on the downswing, dont forget to try to think of nothing though except your target, oh and watch the ball.

Pretty easy!

(Guys this is tongue in cheek of course)

I had the opportunity to speak with Bio yesterday and he really does know his stuff.

It might be worth your while talking to the guy and giving him a chance to explain in detail his comprehensive understanding of the golf swing.

It seems that there are others like Aussie Bomber who think the same thing.

Now known as Junior… Welcome to the jungle Getting Better, look forward to seeing you sometime.

Bio, is there somewhere we can go to see what you do, and maybe get some independent analysis of your product?

weetbix, send us an email on bome01@hotmail.com

I agree there are no ‘secrets’ Bio – only mysteries…...!

And we each have to find out own way to the truth!

How about if I suggest that with Hogan, the beginning of the kinetic chain (pivot) and the end of the kinetic chain (the clubhead, which rotates) work off the same thing – pivot accelaration basically – and that this is not the case for all golfers, even very good ones.

Steb -

I think it’s something not unlike the TGM idea (sorry TGM, but it’s true….).

“If he (Hogan) has a good golf swing, he must have an awesome kinetic link…...”

Steb,
We have the gear to able to break his swing down and define it further.
We know what we are looking for and when you do it’s blatantly obvious.
There’s nothing wrong with homers work it’s us. Homer is work is based on a machine a perfect mechanical machine. How can perfect mechanics work on guys who have poor biomechanical function(movement patterns) it can’t. The machine can’t operate the way it should.
When you have a good biomechanical function then T.G.M works perfectly.
Like swinging it wasn’t the fact what Ben doyle taught lag didn’t work.
The true fact was lags biomechanical function wasn’t effective enough to work with perfect mechanics, wasn’t Ben’s fault nor Lag’s. Back then they never had the technology of today to be able to measure why it didn’t work. If they did and Lag was screened you could have trained his movement patterns and ben’s stuff would have work. Ben worked on pure mechanics is order for this to work you needed an awesome kinetic link.
Instead Lag had to go searching. Lag found mechanics which works for his movement patterns and he could play good golf.
What Lag teaches wouldn’t suit me, we have different movement patterns.I have low hip speeds although I create this speed fast. Lag has high and late hip speed, and if you compare his data to what he talks about it meshes to why he swings the way he does and the mechanics he talks about, this works for him.

A true reality , there’s only a very few on tour who have an a good kinetic link, the others all have some form of movement patterns issues.

Steb,
I was once club fitted and trained under the best fitter in the world, was taught how to coach by golfing doctrines and G.S.M’s and study all the other methods. And myself produce states players, grand champions and long drivers, also traveled the U.S working along side some of the best coaches and world’s best players training biomechanical functions, Also played and can still play high level golf. From my experience and hitting my own head against the wall, in golf there was a bigger picture, clubs and mechanics play a role, although the key is biomechanical function. All the top coaches use us to work with their player training biomechanical function.
They have issues and they are the best players.

The average bear is really the one who needs biomechanical function training more than anyone, but there is a bad perception it’s only for elites, not true.

I’m fully with you about the importance of good biomechanical function, no question.

I’m also impressed you could deduce so much from what I assume was mediocre quality, low-speed footage of Hogan.

Back (for a second) to Sadlowski’s power driving swing….

I think it’s actually vital to mention that he may be separating that left arm from his upper body BUT is it a chicken wing to be certain?

From the angle of that picture you can’t see it, but I’ve seen pictures and video of chicken wings where the left arm is not only off the body, but pulling behind the person in an effort to save an over the top move, which inevitably exaggerates a terrible left to right spin on the ball.

Sadlowski doesn’t do this, he may be holding off rotation to the left, but he isn’t truly chicken winging (in my opinion).

I didn’t mention this in my Train Wreck Swing thread, but the other things I note of interest in his swing are the crazy high hands. I had to stop doing that because there’s no way on this earth I could get the club back to an acceptable inside position from that far above plane… amazing really.

Finally, I LOVE the fact that in a ‘modern’ era where I’ve had no less than 2 instructors (NOT Lag) tell me to ‘restrict’ the hip movement in the backswing or “X” factor tension as it is called. Hogwash. Sadlowski has no lack of power and his hips are totally free… like Vijay Singh, or many others. I personally think it’s a great way of loading up the hips and a year ago I thought the total opposite, so I guess you could go either way on that one.

I will say at this point Lag has some of the most unique approaches to lower body engagement I’ve ever heard of and they work… not only because of what they do, but when you do it. This is another area that I’ve had several debates with former instructors, but I got tired of explaining stuff to them… and Lag told me not too anyway. LOL. I guess that’s beyond the scope of this post but I wanted to just add those points about Sadlowski… being his ‘chicken wing’ , long swing, and hips. That rotation hold off is something though.

Mr Aigulle – that sure is a fascinating story….

Where would you be posting from?

Steb,
You can do amazing things add lighting, improve pixels, providing it’s avi file ,you can make a lot of adjustments to improve picture quality and clarity.
It’s not about the speed, 500 frames is the quality and clarity, you can add lighting, 1000 frames just means better quality and clarity, the data is still there 10,000 means better clarity when you slow it down, it’s doesn’t become distorted or blured that’s all, the data is still all there
Data to process which is a nightmare is modern cameras, they compress frames and pixels, sometimes you can’t process the data with some cameras
Dv camera’s are the go.
we can capture data at 1000 frames

Beezneeds, glad you found the story interesting.

Would be interested to hear what other people’s take or experience is on Lag’s ‘pulling the club out of orbit’ concept.

Having felt it, it is a quite incredible sensation that puts immense feel and control in your hands. Only time will tell if this is a flash in the pan feeling, but I had it yesterday and I still have it today.

Bio,

Doyle and McHatton teach an extremely idealistic version of Homer’s swinging protocol..

I was one of Doyle’s finest specimens of that discipline right behind Clampett. It’s not that it didn’t work.. it worked fine…under controlled
circumstances.

But the reason both Clampett and I jumped ship was that it made two very big assumptions… one, that the wrists remain perfectly free, flexible and oily at all times, and second, that the pivot’s acceleration from the top to impact is perfectly steady and even so CF can square the clubface with zero muscular hand or wrist involvement.

This then leads to…
full roll dual horizontal hinging moving into an off plane post impact equal angular spiral requiring such perfect timing to strike a golf ball it is almost beyond description.

We were obsessive ball beaters because the mechanics of that protocol required it. Once we hit the road, and had to deal with the reality of travel and left the cocoon of college golf, it reared it’s ugly head.

Had modern technology, been around then, it would have made no difference. Show me one great player that uses that stroke pattern and is having success today.. NONE

It’s simply asking too much of the human condition to repeat it week in and out.

You say that a player’s typical biomechanics don’t change… and I believe that..

Therefore, if that system worked perfectly sometimes and failed at other times, this would logically lead to mechanical issues, not bio mechanical issues.

I changed my biomechanical movements in 11 months from swinging to hitting… and proper hitting required a completely different firing order and muscular protocol.

As a pure CF swinger, I did not have the ability to properly hit.
As a pure pivot driven hitter, I DO have the ability to swing.

Even though my pivot is much more effective now that it was then,
if I tried to go out and “swing” my way around a golf course, I would still be plagued by the same swinging demons, just like every other
golfer that uses such an approach.

As a swinger, I was a slave in chains to CF..
Now I am it’s master.

Arnie,

I know you were requesting this photo for another thread, but here it is..

This shows the two distinct hinging actions that both create a well struck straight golf shot..

however, the one on the left, top and bottom is with a firm strike of the hands, and upper arms pinned onto the body, fighting the outward pull of CF that is trying to put the left arm and clubshaft inline. This is resiting in both the armpits and wristcock.

The photos on the right top and bottom are with dead hands, relaxed wrists, and allowing for the upper arms to fly off the body with a right arm that is passive, and being pulled by CF into an earlier inline position therefore closing the clubface into a dual horizontal hinge action. This is not onplane but heading into an equal-angular post impact spiral. This is what most golfers do,
and is typically what is taught still to this day by contemporary TGM instructors..

Why? you tell me….

If you’re hell bent on swinging, put them inline at adress and impact
like Moe Norman… that can work.. otherwise.. forget it.

Actually there are very few TGM teachers who teach pure CF swinging. Most teach what is known as Manipulated Hand Swinging or a Hitting motion (different motions). Lag learned the CF TGM route before seeing the other side of the coin from another coach, of TGM background.

CF users have only one straight away ball flight position. MHS can move the ball position back and forth and throw in different hinge actions and release actions for control.

Those TGM teachers who do teach CF take longer to get their students to control the ball flight. They tend to be found in California rather than on the East Coast. There are more teaching Hitting over on the Atlantic side of the country too. All part of of ‘who learned what from Homer’ as he taught his teachers and then they dispersed all over the place.

Hitting or swinging, if you do not have impact alignments sorted out before you take the club back, you are guessing.

By the way the right arm ALWAYS drives, swinging or hitting. It is always straightening heading down plane.

Great photos illustration up above there Lag…truly shows the difference
Looks cool too…hitting off the deck and into the fog

So Guru – just to be clear – is Lag’s approach Manipulated Hand Swinging?

Lag,
That’s mechanics,mechanics, mechanics, not biomechanical function, ben dole’s stuff works well if you had good biomechanical function, just didn’t suit you cause of your movement patterns. Your natural biomechanical function was random release,that’s what failed you on tour.
You thrust your arms early before your upper body and random release, doyle taught snapped release, your movement pattern didn’t allow you to snap release, wasn’t the mechanics that didn’t work it was your movement patterns weren’t effective for doyle’s method. That’s ok you searched for gold and found something which suited you that’s great.l can see why mchatton suited you that’s fine.
although if technology was around then you could have probably been the best of all time I don’t doubt it your a talented player. You could have have your biomechanical function trained to have a pure kinetic link and there would have been no stopping you.

Do you remeber chassing Greg Norman, thats dudes kinetic link was as pure as they come that’s way he was the best.
On a bad day he was till in contention
If tiger improved his biomechanical function no would get close to him. It’s not his mechanics, he’s been trying that route for years.
It’s his biomechanical function his movement patterns which holds him back.

Lag your in a mechanical world so your not going to understand what I’m saying, it takes years of study to develop an undertsanding.

Showme, mechanics are fine I grew up watching them, his biomechanical function needs work, why change something pure when he could improve his biomechanical function. That’s all he needs.
I hope showme doesn’t make mechanical changes that’s not his issue.

Lag and Guru….
4 of the best posts I’ve read since being here. Extremely clarifying and to the point. Thanks, guys…...

Bio,

We should get some clarity here for the readers of this thread..

What is your definition of Biomechanical?

Here is a dictionary version:
(used with a sing. verb) The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure.

What is your definition? Please let’s get this straight.

For clarity in this forum, I think of “mechanics” as things that are not necessarily strength related, such as opening or closing the stance, or the position of the club at the top or the finish, or intentions of where to go with the club, such as feeling a more heel heavy divot, or cupping the left wrist.. and so forth…

When I talk about vertical and horizontal ground forces, or firing into an impact bag, retraining muscular firing orders of the power accumulators through thousands repetitious strengthening exercises
and showing people how to use their muscles to act almost violently to keep flex on the clubshaft… it seems to me this would be consistent with a more traditional dictionary version of using muscles to move bones around in the body, and would have something to do with biomechanical motions of the body.

We need to know what your definition is here so we don’t have to get into another one of these “jeffman” type endless merry go round scenarios where we are essentially speaking completely different languages.

A quick swing tip is mechanical is it not?

A request that a student take 10,000 hits into an impact bag with a specific protocol… is that not a biomechanical ?

What is your definition so we can keep things on the up and up here…

Lets see if the margins work better this time:

Biomechanical Program:

Biomechanics is the science that examines forces acting upon and within a biological structure and the effects produced by these forces. Biomechanics addresses several different areas of human and animal movement. As examples, it includes studies on (a) the functioning of muscles, tendons, ligaments, cartilage, and bone, (b) load and overload of specific structures of living systems, and© factors influencing performance.

The Biomechanics curriculum at the University of Calgary focuses on the mechanics of human movement with an emphasis on biomedical and sport applications.

The Biomechanics program provides students with a grounding in muscular and mechanical analysis of human movement, mechanics of biomaterials, and modeling and simulation of human movement. Students graduating with a degree in Biomechanics will have an appreciation of the complex mechanical functioning of the human body.

Potential career paths where graduating students may apply such knowledge include: research positions in university laboratories, medical facilities or sport and fitness companies, entrepreneurial ventures, community or health care programs, and other professional opportunities through sport and physical activity.

Lab offers duffers swinging chance to improve game
By Sheila Rougeau

Canada’s first 3-D golf laboratory is opening its doors to the public.

Using Motion Analysis Technology by TaylorMade (MAT-T), nine high-speed cameras track reflective markers to create a detailed 3-D analysis of a player’s golf swing. The immediate, visual feedback helps players improve their swing and, ultimately, their game.

The lab is a collaborative research project between TaylorMade adidas Golf and the University of Calgary’s Centre for Health and Wellness Research.

“Given the long history between adidas and the Centrin footwear, it was a natural progression to move into another sport science area,” says researcher Dr. Darren Stefanyshyn. “Although the primarily a research lab, swing analysis and club fittings will be available to the public when the system is not in use.”

” Being the only MAT-T facility accessible to the public in Canada and the western United States, this is a great opportunity for players who are looking to improve their game and get a recommendation for the latest TaylorMade clubs,” says Dr. Ian Wright, research engineer with TaylorMade adidas Golf. “We’re pleased the centre is offering this service and hope the public will take advantage of this unique opportunity.”

The lab’s uniqueness is attributed to the immediate visual feedback a golfer receives. “Most players are amazed at how their body looks when swinging a golf club,” explains Geoff Smith, operator of the lab.

“The MAT-T system allows golfers to change any part of their swing and, 30 seconds later, see what effect it had. A lesson using other teaching systems versus a session in the 3-D golf lab is like comparing Atari to XBox. Because the feedback is visual and immediate, players are more likely to retain the information and alter their swing as required.”

I hope we can pin down a workable and understandable definition here. Otherwise, it will result in endless dribble about “It’s over your head” or unless you have a doctorate degree from an accredited scholastic university graduate program it is therefore not an accessible concept for 99.99999999% of the earth’s golfers to discuss.

I think we all would like to keep discussion on tangible concepts, otherwise, what is the point?

So Guru – just to be clear – is Lag's approach Manipulated Hand Swinging?

Lag is a Float loading Hitter with a Snap release. I know that because of the time we spent together in Oct, so I know he drives the club, as opposed to dragging it (apart from the initial Float down).

His descriptions of what say Norman does is of a MHS, which is what most players are.

Guru
Is floating and driving the same thing and can you please explain it in terms of anologies like the hammer/axe.

Different things.

Float Loading is adding wrist cock in the downswing. Best known proponent on Tour is Sergio.

Drive Loading is pushing the back of the shaft the same way that you drive an axe at a tree. You initially can pull the axe handle but you DRIVE the crap out of it to take the chunk out of the trunk with everything you have. And add to that when tree chopping its not an arms only effort, you use your body turn as well.

Your left wrist cock acts like using a hammer. Its the arms motion that provides the strength but the loose wrist allows the cocking to be unleashed into the nail.

macs the page blow out was to do with some of the cutting and pasting you had in the post. I got lucky finding which line start to edit out:) Admin is working on this sort of issue in the background but luckily it has not cropped up for a while so he is doing a good job with only an occassional burp happening these days.

Thanks Guru
I always get a lot action right at the pressure point #3 and usually have to scrap a callus and wear tape right there. Is this an indication of driving the club.

Driving or Dragging #3 PP gets a hammering. Remember #3 is only a sensor to the head being behind the hands and its the lowest part of our grip. Its a good sign that you are maintaining the lag.

OK thanks Guru got it…...for now anyway.

(Quick Q: What about a guy like Trevino, who seems top me to be all Pivot+Left Hand Pull? (often into held off/angled to near vertical hinge release)

On the Biomechanics issue, my take on Bio’s stuff is that he wants individual golfers to load their muscles fully i.e. John Daly loads his body up fully, but so does Allen Doyle, or….Ben Hogan.

It’s like ‘body/muscle lag’ – though I’m not talking about ‘torque’ or ‘X-Factor’ here…...weight shift also plays a part.

If the muscles are going to release at great speed, they must be wound up – same as the club…....

Bio? That’s my amateur’s take on what you seem to me to be saying – how does it match up with the reality!?

Beeneeds,
That’s part of what I’m saying yes.
Biomechanics is the study of body motion, what separate us from other biomechanic companies is we train biomechanical function.

Biomechanical function is how the body motion moves effectively.
The correct way to grip the ground, the correct sequence in firing each body segment and when.
How to load the muscles correct and how to fire them, when and which order which is most effective.
This is what drive the mechanics most effectively.
There is a correct sequence called the kinetic chain which is the order the body produces maximum performance, creating Distance, accuracy and consistency. starts feet,hips,upper body,arms club, although they need to accelerate and decelerate at certain points.
The hips must accelerate and decelerate for the upper body to fire effectively.
The upper body must accelerate and decelerate so the arms fire effectively.
The arms must accelerate and decelerate so the clubs snaps and releases effectively.
It’s called conservation of momentum.

Lag your saying you go on physics ,although you going against the law on conservation of momentum which drives the mechanics of the golf swing.
You believe in your method is cause it suits your movement patterns, not everyone else’s, Doyle has mechanics suited the laws of conservation of momentum for body motion, you didn’t quite have the right conservation of momentum and movement patterns to suit his methods.
That’s ok.
And yes you can teach people how to get the correct kinetic link and conservation momentum. It’s what we do.
And yes it does take years to understand biomechanical function, which isn’t important , how do we fix it is important. That’s my job.
I give causes and cures, not band aid jobs.

Guru, may appear lag is snap releasing although he is random releasing the illusions of golf

Mechanics (Golf): Grip, Stance, Posture, Alignments, Static postions… What you describe are “Mechanics” Lag is more akin to individualisation of the system’s components and thus more like connect the dots than optimising athletic motion.

Biomechanics (or as it should and is called the study Human Body Motion): This looks at the system’s function as a whole, the optimal muscular and joint functioning of the system in order to optimise force usuage in order to improve movement pattern performance.

Lag, you are static in your knowledge and mechanics based more on observations, intuitions and “feelings”; Bio produces dynamic motions within an entire unit which are scientifically measurable functions of athletic performance – not just for golf but for human locomotion in general.

Lag you are an artist, you see, you feel, you observe and in this manner you are little more than paint by numbers – Not knocking you for what you do, as you are an extremely gifted athlete and are extremely knowledgeable about the golf swing mechanically. Bio is more like the Xray or ultrasound machine, he can tell us why what is happening on the surface is happening. He is able to give us the root cause rather than just treating the symptoms, herein lies the difference.

Instead of asking him to justify himself to you and everyone else why dont you ask some informed questions and allow bio to provide knowledge to the collective “We”.

Hitting an impact bag on a prescribed notion of symptomatic cures is NOT biomechanical in nature, nor will it ever be. Please dont put Bio in the same sentence as Jeffman, I dont think for the knowledge that Bio and Chris have, any of us are worthy of being put in the same sentence as these two.

Junior,
I know you love jumping in and feeling like you have to defend Bio on anything you think has been worded disparagingly towards him, but once again you are off the mark.
The reference about Jeffman was only an illustration of how misconstruing terms and definitions can get us all nowhere except for around in circles.
I wish you would read and re-read posts before you get on your high-horse.

GolfUR:

I dont feel like I have to defend anyone mate. I am honest and entitled to my opinion the same as you are. Why do feel it necessary to comment after my posts? You could always mind your business if you dont like it? Maybe it is you who should re-read as I was actually being informative, not derogatory and was actually complimentary of Lag and his abilities. Sure we dont see eye to eye on certain things but Lag knows I fully respect him as a source of knowledge when it comes to swing mechanics.

Perhaps it is protagonists like yourself who have nothing better to do but whinge and moan and act like a moderator on this site when it is not your task, right or duty. Please feel free to skip my posts if you dont like their nature. I am in no doubt that Lag understands what I have said and where it is coming from and will continue to have no problem discussing things with us. He too is a seeker…

He too is a seeker…

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

That’s what I’m talking about! So many bright teachers here with so many wonderful ideas on how to teach G.O.L.F. If you come here with an open mind, you can learn from EVERYBODY. You never know what tip you pick up may help one of your students one day…

Kevin

So many bright teachers here with so many wonderful ideas on how to teach G.O.L.F. If you come here with an open mind, you can learn from EVERYBODY.

I'll start with this statement ’ÄúYou don't appreciate what you have until you lose it” Let me explain I've been a member at another site that had a similar situation with two different ideology/methods for golf and end a monster thread with Sevman1 that was 99% informative and constructive and in good spirits which I previously never seen ever then it got poisoned.

I would suggest separating Bio from Lag's thread allowing Bio to break down his way with diagram picture computer models whatever he need to do and not destroy a previously strong thread and let the other stand on it merit own ideology/method. Why choke off epiphany's from keep coming in with there ahhaa moments because of a different ideology/methods that is dominating lately. Look it sucks when a thread is goes into definition of words and become the focal point. I hope Bio's company ideology/method could sell you and explain on there own merit/thread and not piggyback of Lag's thread there is always plenty of room for EVERYBODY. Peace and cool rational thinking is nice!!!

JuNiOR

Junior,

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

That has to be the most absurd posting I have ever seen you put up.

You have ZERO idea what I teach or how I work with my students. ZERO..

When you came to me for help last year and asked that I work with you off the forum it was within the context of you learning to drive the ball as far as possible, not to become a fine precision striker of a golf ball.

If I remember right, I worked with you quite extensively and was able to get you to… at that time… a personal record clubhead speed of 153 MPH. I’m sure I still have the email to confirm that.

I never teach static positions to my students.. good lord..

I only teach body motions at full speed and in real time… and I’m constantly monitoring and teaching my students to properly sequence the firing order of their muscles so that they can not only have great control of the golf club, properly feel it in their hands with great intention, but also hit the ball long and be able to shape their shots at will.

Now back to our current topic..

BIOMECHANICS

“The study Human Body Motion”

Is this the agreed definition of Biomechanics?

Question for Bio..

Can you please name the player that DID have the proper Biomechanics to sync up with Doyle and McHattons extreme swinging Protocol?

If it wasn’t Bobby Clampett, who was…. or is it?

BIOMECHANICS

’ÄúThe study Human Body Motion”

Is this the agreed definition of Biomechanics?

Close. It’s the study of forces in a biological system. The forces might not cause motion (eg extensor action), nor does the subject have to be human.

Take it from an engineer, what you talk about is biomechanics. It’s also mechanics in that biomechanics is a sub-discipline of mechanics. What Bio describes is also biomechanics, hence mechanics as well.

Any other in-house redefinitions will only serve to confuse out-house, as it has already done.

What is not biomechanics in the golf swing? The shaft flexing and twisting, the face deforming, energy transfer during impact, the tee breaking, ... They’re applied mechanics.

Posture, grip etc are conditions in a biomechanical study.

If I remember right, I worked with you quite extensively and was able to get you to… at that time… a personal record clubhead speed of 153 MPH.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

All this talk of ‘biomechanics’ is actually irrelevant and detracts from the real purpose of this thread, which is for Lag to generously impart to us, free of charge, his considered professional opinion on what works in the golf swing.

The sooner we get back to that the better, its bad form to diss your host.

Bio and Junior, I respect your views also but please remember that people tune in to this thread predominantly to hear what Lag says.

I saw this squabbling destroy sevam1’s epic thread on golfwrx, please don’t allow that to happen to this thread.

I am one of Lag’s students but I also enjoy this thread because of the fermentation of ideas/ resources that it allows. By definition, that will require some maturity from all participants. Might be worth reflecting on posts before pressing that save reply button.

All this talk of ‘biomechanics' is actually irrelevant and detracts from the real purpose of this thread, which is for Lag to generously impart to us, free of charge, his considered professional opinion on what works in the golf swing.

The sooner we get back to that the better, its bad form to diss your host.

Bio and Junior, I respect your views also but please remember that people tune in to this thread predominantly to hear what Lag says.

I saw this squabbling destroy sevam1's epic thread on golfwrx, please don't allow that to happen to this thread.

I am one of Lag's students but I also enjoy this thread because of the fermentation of ideas/ resources that it allows. By definition, that will require some maturity from all participants. Might be worth reflecting on posts before pressing that save reply button.

1000% Correct

JuNiOR

BTW: Lag, I haven’t forgotten that you teased us with a ‘video’ response to the differences between hitting and swinging… maybe even some switter info… How’s that going? I’m dying to see it.

All this talk of ‘biomechanics' is actually irrelevant and detracts from the real purpose of this thread, which is for Lag to generously impart to us, free of charge, his considered professional opinion on what works in the golf swing.

The sooner we get back to that the better, its bad form to diss your host.

Bio and Junior, I respect your views also but please remember that people tune in to this thread predominantly to hear what Lag says.

I saw this squabbling destroy sevam1's epic thread on golfwrx, please don't allow that to happen to this thread.

I am one of Lag's students but I also enjoy this thread because of the fermentation of ideas/ resources that it allows. By definition, that will require some maturity from all participants. Might be worth reflecting on posts before pressing that save reply button.

Thats a very fair comment… but their is also discussion is their not? Or do we take everything as gospel. I never said I didnt appreciate what Lag said…

Yes Lag that is true, however your teachings were mechanical not Biomechanical in nature I can tell you that factually. Like I said Lag I never said I dont respect your ideas or your talent and I actually said that in my post. If questioning you is absurd are we to take what you say as gospel? I have ZERO idea what you teach but yet you want to lay claim to working with me to get my highest swing speed? I apologise for questioning you..

You did get one thing a little factually incorrect though… Yes I came to get advice off you regarding learning to drive the ball further – dont worry about the email, I have no trouble being honest – and yes you did aid me in getting 153mph… However you and I both know there is more to distance than clubhead speed readings and since working solidly with Bio on Human Body Motion and improving my movement patterns, my muscular loading and firing and my kinetic link, I now swing with an accelerated high force 140’s swing and hit the ball 50-75 yards further because my mechanics are supported by optimal movement patterns…

I do however agree with aiguille and tigersworld (who I am flattered keeps signing Junior) though, I think this should move to a new thread where Bio can impart his knowledge on Biomechanics and you can stick to doing what you do best… Talking TGM and tour experience

OK, now we are back to the original purpose of the thread, good man Junior.

What did you change to achieve this improvement?

What were the differences in what Lag and Bio taught you?

Doyle’s mechanics suited the laws of conservation of momentum for body motion, you didn't quite have the right conservation of momentum and movement patterns to suit his methods.

How can you possibly make such a comment? How could you have any idea what was going on in my golf swing 30 years ago?

Are you basing that on my screening that you suggested I do straight out of bed, stiff as a board, with no warp up… and street shoes on a smooth wooden deck?

Are you serious?

Lag,
Do you really believe your movement patterns have changed?
Your neuro system , it naturals way your body moves.
It’s like walking do you think your walking pattern has changed in 40 years, not at al.
Can they bey changed? Yes
The only way to change your neuro system is using special training techniques to shock the system to get them to change. And it’s not motor skills stuff pound an impact bag 10,000 times.
As i said special techniques.
Why do you think no one else can do what we do it’s specialise and taken years of research.
My mechanics look different from 18 years ago, my movement patterns haven’t change. If you know what to look for.
Regardless your cold or warmed up movement patterns don’t change.
You can measure someone hitting a paper cup doesn’t matter.
We have research on being cold or warmed up doesn’t it effect your biomechanical function in how you move.
When on tour your if you didn’t sustain keeping your mechanics refined of course doyles method wouldn’t work for, Your natural movement patterns would kick in on you.
In order to make doyles stuff to work for your biomechanical function you had to grind thousands of balls. So if failed you on tour.
You realized this didn’t work for you, so you found mechanics which did suit your movement patterns.
You may feel you changed your movement patterns although all you have done is change your mechanics.

And hang on I was the one who added 40 metres to juniors drive not you. Don’t go stealing my glory their lag.
I had to train junior and we are still working on improving his biomechanical function.And he’s hit the ball further by the week.

Your teaching people how to load and fire their muscles, really? if so why are you disagreeing with me.
You would understand what I’m saying and not disagree.
Your using your view lag not the laws of conservation nor are you using the laws how to load and fire muscles if you were you wouldn’t disagree with me.

Hey send me anyone of your students and lets screen them and see in black and white it will tell the story if your teaching them to load and fire their muscles right.
Can you please explain how you might teach muscular loading and how to fire them and when?

Ok,

Let’s get a definition of “movement patterns”

It sounds simple enough.. I am tempted to say our subconscious mind is controlling our general quirky traits, the way be blink, our heart beat and so forth.. our God given human traits..

Let me get this straight.. these things we cannot change hardly from the day we are born. It’s the core of who we are that has nothing to do with training or building muscles, or learning coordination such as playing the piano.

Now what you are saying is that the only way to change these patterns is by using special training techniques to shock the system, and no one on planet earth can do this except your company?

That sounds bit far fetched.. but I’m still all ears…

You are claiming your research on being cold or warmed up doesn't affect your biomechanical function in how you move?
Now I might agree with it not changing your movement patterns if the above is true, but come on Bio, you don’t really think people are going to believe this do you?

My body most certainly does move differently mechanically between a hot and muggy day, and a near freezing one. I played in the Tasmanian Open when it was almost snowing, and I could hardly get the club back above my right shoulder..with all due respect, this is absolute nonsense.

Bio, I am trying to give you an opportunity here to explain what you are talking about, as you claim to have secret special knowledge that has only been shared with the games greats such as Greg Norman and a few others..

You seem to insinuate that mechanics are not “biomechanics”
and that anyone only teaching muscular drills is clearly teaching an inferior method to your highly classified information.

You keep claiming that mechanics are not going to improve a golfer, and only your special top secret knowledge can make a significant difference in someones golf game.

If your methods are so rock solid, why did Norman melt down in the 96 Masters? You claim to have fixed him, but are his stats really better than they were in the late 80’s?

I do find your stuff quite interesting don’t get me wrong, and I do respect your understand of the golf swing , but some of the things you say are pretty over the top…

such as only you can change someones movement patterns with neuro system shock treatment!

good lord..

Lets take the biomechanics chat out of this thread and put it in another one folks. It has deflected the original topic which is Lags Golf Machine and his interpretation of swinging a club.

Guru
thanks that is highly appreciated.

Lag,
We aren’t secretive to what we do not at all,I can’t put training up on here because it’s individualize everyone has different movement patterns, so everyone needs different training programs for them.
You need to screen someone to find out what their issues are.
Then you build a program accordingly.

Shocking the systems as such it’s not like hooking them up to electrodes and shocking them. it’s using plyometrics and functional training to do it, which has taken 18 years of research measuring the training to see what works and doesn’t , how to apply it, what works for people. Then measuring athletes to see the outcomes. This took a long time to achieve.
Anyone is welcome to be screened and get trained if they are prepared to pay for it.

Norman had a mental melt down, he played stupid golf and putted terrible.
So what everyone puts Norman down for one bad day so what, he played awesome three days prior to get in contention.
We can’t control his mind or his chipping or putting, was in Normans hands, he blew it.
He was the best for a long time and achieved a lot in his day. And won a lot of events.
Norman’s head killed him we all know that, he hit one bad shot and took him 5 holes to get over it, that was Greg, he did it again in this years master on the home stretch to miss the cut.

Lag, I should have elaborated if you have effective movement patterns it doesn’t effect your kinetic chain in the sequence they move. Not really.
It’s doesn’t effect how u grip the ground effectively, or when you fire the hips and the rest follow suit not at all.
Yes was hard for me to chew at first myself, although now my movement patterns are better, I can walk to the tee cold and smash one down the pipe. One thing we can’t control is squaring the face up that’s mechanical.
lets look at the average punter here they go get lessons for years and never improve why? A guy called me today saying he’s been of 20 for years, he went and seen a club fitter, which was an honest guy and said you know what your mechanics look sound, my suggestion is why they are working you should call bio and he did.

Lag my point is why most guys don’t improve and their mechanics don’t work for them is their biomechanical function is poor.
You have good biomechanical function and your mechanics will work. It’s the missing link to majority’s of golfers.

This is what sux about biomechanics is the study of human body motion, yeah great how do you fix it, what is the most effective way to biomechanically function and this is what we specialized in.Is how to teach and train effective biomechanical function that’s what seperates us from other companies.
Finding the root cause and fix it,
Then they can apply what you do.
My point is it’s not the mechanics you have that down pat, it’s not the students failure to appy the mechanics it’s their biomechanical function preventing them from applying it.

I taught for a long time and realized myself from a teaching point of view, shit why are people improving and started exploring why and found the answer, biomechanical function once I fixed this and applied the mechanics they were taught they improved.

Tour players have good mechanics what holds them back is biomechanical function

Bio, what part did you not understand about “take the Biomechanics part of the talk to another thread”??

I agree Guru, I think another thread dedicated to Bio’s Biomechanic Golf Machine thread might be a great addition to the forum.

Just a couple more posts here to Bio ..

I am here to both, share insight, reflect, ponder and of course learn.
I did have a screening, and I have been asked on occasion what I thought about it..

My answer to most is.. I think it’s interesting…

However..

Since you and I have spoken at depth on the mechanics of the golf swing, I believe us to be very much on the same page about the advantages of a flatter more pivot driven golf swing where a firm cohesive tension exists within the body..( I believe you call this proper muscular loading)

I could certainly be a very good samaritan for your efforts, but I NEED TO UNDERSTAND at least the basic premise of what you are doing to give it my full endorsement.

This is why I am trying to get some clarity here on definitions, because I believe that when you move the body, tighten the muscles
or load the muscles doing what you would call mechanical, most would also believe this to be biomechanical also..

If I flick a thumb tack across a table with my finger, I think by definition we could view that is a biomechanical action. So when you make comments that someone like myself is only teaching mechanics, you are clearly crossing definition boundaries. If the
body moves, is that just mechanical? If someone is hitting an impact bag, there is nothing biomechanical going on? By a traditional definition of the word, that is complete rubbish.

If you have another more specific definition then please bring it forward.

It seems you have your own definitions for the following words..

Mechanical
Biomechanical
Human body motion
movement patterns
(Are there mechanical movement patterns and also biomechanical movement patterns?)

Until these words are clearly defined by you.. so that we know what you mean when you say one of these words, you leave us readers in a fog of disillusionment, ignorance, confusion.

Personally I don’t care if your definitions are different than a dictionary version, as long as we know here on this forum what they are.

I can understand that you might say, come in for a screening and the shroud of mystery will be unveiled, however, I have had a screening and I still have no idea what you mean by these terms.

So can you please give these terms for us a recognizable face, that would clear up any over lap in interpretation?

Now you bring up plyometrics..

plyometrics sounds like this might be more along the lines of what you are talking about.

If your comments were more based upon we at “Our Company”
are using cutting edge muscular training via plyometrics, and we have several programs available for golfers in particular based upon their strength and ability to apply plyometrics correctly as not to harm themselves… then I think what you are saying has much more potential merit than going around saying nobody on the earth should should be going around suggesting swing drills, which of course are biomechanical in nature..

Now hitting an impact bag I know based upon traditional definition of the word biomechanical is in fact both mechanical and BIOMECHANICAL!

However,

It is probably not plyometric necessarily.

It sounds like it is the plyometric stuff that needs a properly trained expert to write “what I still would question” to be a subjective prescription to a student to lead them down the road to increase the effectiveness of their muscular conditioning.

Ben Doyle produced only one stellar prototype (Bobby Clampett) and only a handful of others who went on to have notable success
including myself.

Is there a plyometric golfer on the rise we should be looking at to
take the golfing world by storm?

It sounds like this would be a good match for the long drive contests but golf is still a lot about feel, and shaping shots, and accuracy, although not nearly as much as in the past..

Bio,

A deeper understanding of your work will only create interest in what you are doing, and bring more students and ultimately more success to your company, rather than the “Wizard of Oz” approach.

With all due respect.

What I’ve always loved about what Lag has shared with me is it feels very accessible…. to anyone.

In a very simple way, it gets across complexities that I think are lost in written word, pictures, and even explanations.

This is just me, but I’ve had very, very respectable instruction in the past and it was full of technicality. That isn’t to say there isn’t benefit in that methodology, but I don’t want to back down from my main point which is, I wouldn’t want Lag to change his methodology.

I found it very confusing at first to be working ‘backwards’ on the swing. Equally confusing was drill work that seemed to focus on extremely minor portions of the swing. Eventually I realized this was the best way for me to absorb ‘motions’. Motions that no one can really tell you to do, and as Lag has said to me, we all have our own way of explaining these sensations so the motions give us pure, un-biased understandings of what we need to accomplish at various times during the swing. I for one wouldn’t trade that for anything in golf.

I look back at my swing 6 months ago and it’s just disgusting. Even more so is the amount of training I went through with three instructors. I look at new video and it’s not perfect, no way, but it’s SO much better… I feel like I wasted the last three years of my dedication to this game.

With all due respect, I really don’t care if someone tells me, “research proves that, blah, blah, blah.” I don’t care because I have something tangible right now that is a world away from the way I understood golf.

Lag
I read somewhere that when asked for the one quickest tip, Hogan replied “if I have 5 minutes to fix someone’s swing, I would teach them the placement of the left thumb on the grip” and professed a very short left thumb on the grip. In contrast seeing your videos your left thumb seems quite stretched out on the grip. Does it matter and how does it affect the swing in general and the hinging in particular.

Actually I use a very short thumb too.. but I grip the club straight across the fingers of the left hand, not draped under the heel pad and the forefinger like many do..

I find it to be a much stronger grip that keeps slippage out of my grip, and I needed something more clamp like because I have a lot of force in my hands post impact due to the pivot driven hitting orbit pull of CF.
I fight the CF so I needed a tougher grip to deal with that than what is typically taught. My grip pressure from start to finish is very firm.. 7 out of 10 on a scale.

But this can look like a long thumb, but it is not..

Short thumb limits wrist cock, which is ok, because I prefer my angles to be created by force and not contrived for aesthetic reasons.

OK, now we are back to the original purpose of the thread, good man Junior.

What did you change to achieve this improvement?

What were the differences in what Lag and Bio taught you?

Not much point in discussing this anymore is there? This is afterall a GOLF MACHINE thread and one person’s experience and interpretation of it. If you want to discuss Biomechanics and a more scientific approach we can refer it to the new thread that has been created “Body Motion and Biomechanics”

Thanks

The thread is Lags Golfing Machine.

Body Motion and Biomechanics can well be discussed over in that thread as was suggested.

Macs,

I think the grip itself is a very interesting topic. In many ways I think it is very much a chicken or the egg concept.

Will a great grip create proper impact forces? Does it point the student in the right direction like the scarecrow pointing down the yellow brick road?

Or, does a great grip develop over time as impact forces increase due to improvements in pivot thrust and increases in hand speed?

I think the latter.

I have seen a lot more great golf played from strong grips…rather than weak ones..

Ben Doyle used to preach that he could hit the ball well from any kind of grip..

I think this is much more the case for a pure CF swinger with a “dead hands” protocol, than a hitter who is much more reliant upon active hand firing.

One of the reasons I like proper impact bag work, is that I find the hands tend to seek a proper supportive position on the club right out of necessity. It’s extremely hard to make strong contact when doing one handed drills with the left hand only, using a very weak left hand grip. I find I see a students left thumb moving into a more 2 o clock
position without ever having to mention a thing. It just has to go there really if any force is going to be applied.

I’m a big believer that if both hands are going to be on the club, then
both hands need to know exactly what to do individually.
This really helps unnecessary compensations from developing, and
can also aid greatly to work each hand individually toward it’s proper function.

thanks Lag
It makes sense to me. I find the left thumb as a useful guide to find the 4:30 slot and at 2 o clock position it will trace a shollower path (correct?). The only thing that does not seem to fit is the reminder in Hogan’s grip at 5.00 O clock meaning a weaker grip?

Hogan did not like the left side of the fairway, so had a weaker grip and arched is wrist as a double make sure.

One of my goals for this year is to build a “Hogan” spec set this year as close to what I understand that to be from what are hopefully reliable sources such as Tom Wishon and other’s who have described holding Hogan’s clubs.

5 degrees is very significant in the golf swing. I look forward to giving a report as to what it is like to swing such a club, and I’ll take some high speed vids to share and examine how that affects the release and hinge action, aiming point, swing plane, alignment, ball placement, divots, trajectory and overall ball flight characteristics… and possibly how I shot 85 doing it!

I would speculate that the intention of that open grind would be to max out the #3 accumulator, not just to make sure the ball never goes left.
Hogan was a shot maker, and he could work the ball either way with great precision..

If you watch the Shell’s match, he spends a good part of the round drawing the ball.

Lag,

Can you explain how this 4.30 move increases the #3 accumulator but yet elsewhere you say that with bent right arm preservation, it feels like the club is not rotating but is being squared by the pivot rotation.

Is it that the wrists are rotating but at the same speed as the pivot?

If you watch the Shell's match, he spends a good part of the round drawing the ball.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Actually, I was just going to post this! I noted during the round he is mostly drawing the ball with a mild draw stance, even with his weaker grip, and wrist action at the top….....

I want to watch it again. It is quite a clinic on ball striking. ;)

Lag,

Can you explain how this 4.30 move increases the #3 accumulator but yet elsewhere you say that with bent right arm preservation, it feels like the club is not rotating but is being squared by the pivot rotation.

Is it that the wrists are rotating but at the same speed as the pivot?

Interesting question! I have been working on the 4.30 impact drill for a while and when I am drilling I feel that squaring the face to hit at 3.15/3pm on the bag is done primarily via the forearm/wrist rotation though the pivot is involved as well. When I’m playing it feels far more as if the clubface is being squared by the pivot rotation even though I know my hands are anything but passive. Maybe its something to do with the fact that when we drill the forearms/wrists are emphasised because multiple reps makes them burn!

Yea the reps definitely burn. I usually do them in different styles of drills up to 200 a session and my forearms feel like they’re going to fall off.

Eventually you get to a point where strong pivot action, combined with aggressive forearm/wrist rotation (P3 downwards) results in massive release powers into P5! Say goodbye to the right side of the fairway for a while! lol

gettingbetter,

Ideally we want as much rotation of the clubface as possible pre impact, from P3 to impact… but from impact onward, we don’t want a lot of clubface rotation..

This can sound a bit of a paradox, but if you think of Accumulator #3 as a door hitting a jamb, think of it then moving the whole wall.

Once the wrists swivel perpendicular to the shoulders, then remain in that relationship right into finish by way of an accelerating pivot post impact.

This is all the sequencing of the firing orders..

The hips accelerate from the top, but then slow down for the loaded power package to arrive into P3 4:30, then the hands fire rotating the shaft into impact, then the pivot picks up speed again into and beyond P4.

It is not possible to think about these things in the golf swing, so we learn them in sections and in isolation.

This is why we drill endlessly from a very specific starting point, to a very specific finishing point of muscular resistance. We do this with perfect intentions, and at full speed. Once the backswing is completed and a change of direction is established, the golfer should always finish off either into a bag, or into their complete finish… never should they stop mid course and check alignments, because by doing so, you would have to decelerate the golf club which is truly
a mortal sin in this game. NO DECELERATION!

Arnie..

Good point about the burn in the forearms..

If we think about the great ball strikers, they’re littered with guys with bigger than usual forearms..

Hogan, Snead, Player, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson, Seve, Norman, De Vicenzo, I could go on for days..

If the best ball strikers truly hit the ball with passive dead hands, why all the big forearms? If we are supposed to grip the club light like a feather, why the strong forearms? why do Peter Senior and Ian Woosnam look like Popeye the Sailor?

Few swing with dead hands. Magic of the Right forearm thrusting, or being driven, with educated clamps (hands) that control the clubface is what golf is about.

Post impact you have finish swivel choices. A bending left wrist will see a lot more clubface roll, than one kept flat. Either way keep going until the Finish, but one gets you there faster than the other.

Arnie..

Good point about the burn in the forearms..

If we think about the great ball strikers, they're littered with guys with bigger than usual forearms..

Hogan, Snead, Player, Palmer, Nicklaus, Watson, Seve, Norman, De Vicenzo, I could go on for days..

If the best ball strikers truly hit the ball with passive dead hands, why all the big forearms? If we are supposed to grip the club light like a feather, why the strong forearms? why do Peter Senior and Ian Woosnam look like Popeye the Sailor?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Finally we have hit on a solid point of reference, forearm strength (made up of course of wrist, forearm and hand strength) is the key to golfing power. Like Lag said look at any great striker and long hitter and you will see a great set of forearms. Have a look at Zuback’s forearms and you will quickly realise why he is a 5 time long drive champion.

Why do ladies, children and seniors fail to create distance? If golf power was primarily about flexibility and X factoring women would outhit men. But they dont because they lack the required wrist, hand and forearm strength for power impacts.

“The Burn” however is NOT an indication of a good strength workout of the forearms mearly it is a lactic acid response from a small muscle undergoing fatigue.

...never should they stop mid course and check alignments, because by doing so, you would have to decelerate the golf club which is truly
a mortal sin in this game. NO DECELERATION!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

But something must decelerate for the golf club to accelerate….

Junior, I was referring to practice swings..
Don’t stop in the middle of a practice swing to check things..

We must start from one point and move to another…. if we stop mid way, we are what.. picking up passengers? I say.. BAD HABITS!

That’s it, I’m going back to my grippers!

I used to work forearms out extensively in my weight routine. I stopped and just take them to task with normal stuff… but the burn on the bag I see as a good thing since most smaller muscles benefit from higher repetition.

That’s it, I’m pulling these babies out!

On a more serious note, I do notice a change of power sources from my old swing to Lag’s swing.

Specifically the core is more present, of that I have no doubt. But it is important to note the presence of the right arm and shoulder. I used to rely almost purely on the left side, and the “gathering momentum’ of the longer swing. The shorter swing really doesn’t use that in my understanding.

The longer I spend with this swing, the more it feels like I can hit the ball as hard with a 3/4 swing because it’s more about angles, and less about momentum (if that makes any sense).

Hogan was said to have squeezed a rubber ball while in bed recovering from his accident… certainly hand grippers could have some merit.

The thing I like about bag work is that you are cross training all the important muscles and developing a cohesive connection between the feet, hands, and everything in between. You’re working on delivery lines, rotation, and the actual feel of what it is you are doing.

Moe used to tell me that the only “working out” he ever did was hitting thousands of golf balls…. and the way he hit them, as fast as he hit them, it was quite a cardio workout as well. He said he had never stepped foot in a gym in his life. I’ve never seen anyone hit it better.
The calluses on his hands were unlike anything I had ever seen or shook hands will.

Obviously there is something to repetition…

a good thing about bag work is you can get a good work out strengthening the muscles without having to leave your house.
But of course you have to be working on the correct form, with proper intentions or you can do more harm than good.

Hogan was said to have squeezed a rubber ball while in bed recovering from his accident… certainly hand grippers could have some merit.

The thing I like about bag work is that you are cross training all the important muscles and developing a cohesive connection between the feet, hands, and everything in between. You’re working on delivery lines, rotation, and the actual feel of what it is you are doing.

Moe used to tell me that the only “working out” he ever did was hitting thousands of golf balls…. and the way he hit them, as fast as he hit them, it was quite a cardio workout as well. He said he had never stepped foot in a gym in his life. I’ve never seen anyone hit it better.
The calluses on his hands were unlike anything I had ever seen or shook hands will.

Obviously there is something to repetition…

a good thing about bag work is you can get a good work out strengthening the muscles without having to leave your house.
But of course you have to be working on the correct form, with proper intentions or you can do more harm than good.

Obviously there is something to repetition…

Lag…...
I think I found someone else who knew the secret to golf as you describe it
Horton Smith…2 time Masters Champion….. see pic below

Lagpressure – obviously that bore repeating, eh?

Loren/Guru
When at address I apply Extensor action it opens the club a little. Should one then move left to square the face?

Where does it look at Impact Fix?

Guru
That is exactly my question. Does impact fix include extensor action.

It does.
Are you doing it at impact fix address or adjusted mid-body address? If you do it too much at mid-body address it will flatten the left wrist altering the geometry. That would open the clubface.
Ease it off a bit, or re-establish extensor action in takeaway.

Alignments should be established in Impact Fix address and extensor action applied there and maintained through follow-through. I don’t see an effect on clubface alignment due to applying extensor action. Does it happen when raised up to a horizontal plane also?
Maybe you don’t have a flat left wrist or it’s not vertical.

Clubface alignment is slightly open for swingers using horizontal hinging, square to slightly closed for angled hinging of the hitter, the longer the shot the more closed, and square for vertical hinging.

Changing to adjusted standard mid-body address changes the clubface from impact address anyway, regardless of extensor action. Pay it no mind. Just get it right in impact fix address.

That is a very well thought out answer there Loren. It may take a while to digest for some but its worth the pondering for a lifetime!

Quick comment on the forearms thing (which comes up a lot in golfing talk).

I would seriously question whether working on your forearms will improve anyone’s golf enough to bother with doing exercises on them…..

There’s a chicken and egg thing here – some golf pros have big forearms (Paul Casey and Lee Westwood for example) but they were born with them. It’s the luck of the draw…..

Similar to the way that most top swimmers tend to look like…..., well, like top swimmers….....they didn’t train to become that body shape.

If it is golf improvement you seek, I would say work with what God gave you! Obviously for Long Drive types etc, there are different imperatives in play and you have to work on things to get an edge, but for the average person, improving hand strength/forearms ain’t going to matter enough.

Look at the entire LPGA – (I reckon I would beat at least half of them in an arm-wrestle!).

Build a swing your current body can handle…...

I just shake my head sometimes…

Most top swimmers look like top swimmers as they have trained like top swimmers for decades…

You want to be better at an athletic endeavour, train to become a better athlete.

Educated hands is preached for great golf, what muscles move the hands?

EVERY top golfer has extremely strong forearms!! They are the PRIME impact muscles be it for distance or accuracy n control!

You cant develop them, they are the luck of the draw, you either have em or you dont… PLEASE!

Build a swing your current body can handle and never seek to see how good you really could have become if you had of improved your physical limitations…

There are so many unathletic people who play great golf, or hit long distances (and plenty of meatheads who spend all day in the gym without getting anywhere too).

It is nonsense to suggest that every top golfer has extremely strong forearms.

Jack Nicklaus said he had small, weak hands.

Telling people to work on their forearms or hands is wasting their time – they would be much better off with a golf club in their hands learning to build a game around what they can do naturally.

Ed Furgol …..won the 1954 US Open…. had a withered left arm… had no form or strength to it at all….
Calvin Peete…had a broken left arm when he was young… couldn’t even keep it straight and had no strength to it
Tiger had skinny little arms when he first hit the tour and could bomb it miles
Charles Howell 3 is no specimen of bulging forearms and hits it miles

Johnny Miller built himself up in the offseason one year and said he lost his game because of it and never played that well ever again

Fitness and some strength in the right areas is a key but not a total necessity to being a good player…Craig Stadler, Guy Boros etc

Thanks Loren; you are such a resourse:
So this is my understanding now:
Take a “realistic” impact alignment with spinal tilt and hands some forward than ball position (or is it ahead of low point); square the club there. Then relax back to mid body alignment and do your swing. How does the weight balance change for different clubs at impact especially the driver (i guess you should be planted on the right side for the driver at impact)?

Calvin Peete…had a broken left arm when he was young… couldn't even keep it straight and had no strength to it<

And won driving accuracy for 10 years straight on the PGA Tour. Most connected swing in history because of that arm! Now where’s a good tree to fall out of…

The one I put my ball into trying to cut a corner looked good for that sort of thing:) Missed it by “that much”.

Thanks for the great insight Loren.

Alignments should be established in Impact Fix address.

Applies to putting as well. If you keep missing to one side, this may be your problem.

Thanks Loren; you are such a resourse:
So this is my understanding now:
Take a ’Äúrealistic” impact alignment with spinal tilt and hands some forward than ball position (or is it ahead of low point); square the club there. Then relax back to mid body alignment and do your swing. How does the weight balance change for different clubs at impact especially the driver (i guess you should be planted on the right side for the driver at impact)?

None. Mid-body address weight evenly distributed. Hip turn, except shiftless, is a weight shift in both directions.
Body motion is “pivot lag”. The component centers are in the order feet, knees, hips, shoulders, arms, right elbow, left wristcock and/or left hand rotation.
Not all components need be employed but none can overtake the next, although they can overlap.
The swing radius ends at the non-lagging component nearest the clubhead. Lose the lag in your hands or wrists and the swing radius becomes your wrists. Not good. Swinging from the feet is good.
The downstroke starts with a slide (of any length, easily overdone), weight shift, allowing a down-plane shoulder path, axis tilt for direct line delivery path.

Let’s back up on the impact fix part. Take grip, shaft and clubface alignments with the hands in impact location dictated by clubshaft lean and other considerations. After that, a move to “relatively squared away” impact fix address locates the head height and amount of downplane shoulder turn to get you through impact without running out of right arm. Keep the head height and location into adjusted address and perform a right forearm takeaway. Properly done, there’ll be no urge to move the head or sway or bob.

Ok,

Now that the SFPO is behind us, what did I miss here? I know what I missed this weekend (putts!)

Showme,

Good point about the weak or withered arms.. it really shows us
that a proper golf swing, isn’t really much about the arms.. Those guys had great pivots for sure.. and a good set of hands doesn’t hurt the cause either.

Good stuff Loren..
did you learn anything from Mr Barkow this weekend? I thought his thoughts on shoulder alignment were a wonderful observation.
His idea that great players will always fight a closed alignment is do to the relationship between the dominant eye, the left shoulder, and the target. Right handed baseball hitters hit a lot more homers over the left field wall than a block over the second basemans head, or the first baseman’s for that matter.

Apparently Al wrote about it in his book with Ken Venturi, the Venturi Analysis.. (highly recommended). He felt a lot of great strikers would
tend to aim right, and slightly pull the ball into the target. It’s a strong move.. but of course this has been kept very hush hush in the teaching world, as no one would want to teach OTT to higher handicap players..

I think it really hit home with me because I have always fought right aim myself.. interestingly enough, if I am really striking the ball well, I usually don’t stay square for long, and some of my best “knock the pin down” rounds… I have felt a bit of a “pull it” into the pin feel.

The problem is, that over time, it gets too much, and all of a sudden, I start to hit the occasional heel shot with a driver, and sometimes even an iron shank.. I know from using face tape that my best striking rounds… I’m playing from more in towards the hosel, so it’s something I have to be aware of if I am striking it really well in a competition.

When I do go back to square up, it feels very odd for some time…
and my swing starts to feel more conscious in and of itself.. then it becomes a week or two of swinging with trust, rather than pure feel.

<he felt strikers of a great would lot>
tend to aim right, and slightly pull the ball into the target. It's a strong move.. but of course this has been kept very hush hush in the teaching world, as no one would want to teach OTT to higher handicap players..

Interesting you bring that up – I’ve had it on my mind since Junior mentioned the LD guys intentional pull for distance.

Both of the guys I played with on the weekend set up aligned right and hit an intentional pull. But hit it fairly well. I used to play that way but thought it was not a good idea and so have been working on changing my swing! Ah well … such is life.

Apparently Al wrote about it in his book with Ken Venturi, the Venturi Analysis.. (highly recommended). He felt a lot of great strikers would
tend to aim right, and slightly pull the ball into the target. It's a strong move.. but of course this has been kept very hush hush in the teaching world, as no one would want to teach OTT to higher handicap players..

I don’t know ….this is the way I was playing it until you told me about the bent right arm, and the ‘Sadlowski’ move. By the way, check out Sadlowski’s forearms. I’ve seen bigger pipe cleaners. The guy friggin nails the ball though.

I guess I shouldn’t confuse this with a draw. Because it got to a point where I was over ‘drawing’ so badly I had to do a lot more work on the bent arm/open face stuff. Cool thing is, I developed a ‘go to power fade’ with that move. So since I learned that, obviously anyone on this planet can, so I would have to think the pro’s just prefer having a longer distanced, reliable draw.

So my OTT is now a good thing????

thought not! lol!

tend to aim right, and slightly pull the ball into the target. It's a strong move.. but of course this has been kept very hush hush in the teaching world, as no one would want to teach OTT to higher handicap players….

Interesting one this. Wasn’t Snead renowned for setting up slightly to the right and hitting a little pull as his stock pattern?

Lag I know that you like the up and in loop as a great way of providing rhythm through continuous motion and getting the club working down to into a good spot at parallel 3. But as I think you have noted in the past a slight in, up and over move work does work for some players. I think this is particularly the case where players are aligned a little to the right. I always think of Tommy Jacobs from the 50’s/60’s when I think of this move. Lag I think I sent you some video of him from a couple of Shell matches. Its not a massive in then lift move like Sandy Lyle, more a liitle bit in, a little bit up and then a little bit over in that sequence. I’ll try and post some footage at some point.

I guess there are advantages / disadvantages to both ways of “looping” dependent on your standard motion. Personally when playing around I like the up then in backswing motion to help me find a deeper 4.30 delivery position. But for me it can feel like the arms can get a bit disconnected from the body in the early part of the swing. The pulling it inside move can feel more secure and tight to start the swing but doesn’t get me in as good a spot at p3. Just a personal thing.

Choices, choices…...

Cheers, Arnie

Ok,

Now that the SFPO is behind us, what did I miss here? I know what I missed this weekend (putts!)

Showme,

Good point about the weak or withered arms.. it really shows us
that a proper golf swing, isn't really much about the arms.. Those guys had great pivots for sure.. and a good set of hands doesn't hurt the cause either.

Good stuff Loren..
did you learn anything from Mr Barkow this weekend? I thought his thoughts on shoulder alignment were a wonderful observation.
His idea that great players will always fight a closed alignment is do to the relationship between the dominant eye, the left shoulder, and the target. Right handed baseball hitters hit a lot more homers over the left field wall than a block over the second basemans head, or the first baseman's for that matter.

Apparently Al wrote about it in his book with Ken Venturi, the Venturi Analysis.. (highly recommended). He felt a lot of great strikers would
tend to aim right, and slightly pull the ball into the target. It's a strong move.. but of course this has been kept very hush hush in the teaching world, as no one would want to teach OTT to higher handicap players..

I think it really hit home with me because I have always fought right aim myself.. interestingly enough, if I am really striking the ball well, I usually don't stay square for long, and some of my best ’Äúknock the pin down” rounds… I have felt a bit of a ’Äúpull it” into the pin feel.

The problem is, that over time, it gets too much, and all of a sudden, I start to hit the occasional heel shot with a driver, and sometimes even an iron shank.. I know from using face tape that my best striking rounds… I'm playing from more in towards the hosel, so it's something I have to be aware of if I am striking it really well in a competition.

When I do go back to square up, it feels very odd for some time…
and my swing starts to feel more conscious in and of itself.. then it becomes a week or two of swinging with trust, rather than pure feel.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

This weekend was the Spring Championship at one of our muni’s. It was a very windy couple of days, and a 76 on day one had me 2 behind the leader. Started day 2 hitting it very well but a couple of unforced errors and missed putts on the front and I’m 4 over at the turn. I get to #13 (a 152 yard par 3) at 3-over. I set up to draw an 8-iron and hit an ice-cold shank, make double-bogey, and go on to a 4th place finish.

I was wrestling with the driver all day. I missed only 2 fairways but was “in the heel” on most tee shots and losing enough distance to make a difference. I couldn’t seem to make the right adjustment to move impact into the middle of the face. Is an open setup something to consider or are there just too many possible causes? I’m aware of TGM’s “2-J-1” (i.e. unless you hover the driver at address you need to set up with the ball towards the toe), but even that doesn’t seem to get me center-face contact.

Robbo

There are a lot of ways to work the transition move.. I really think out to in makes for a good argument all things considered..

Hogan and Trevino (Trevino more of course) were out to in..
Moe and Knudson, Snead in to out..

Out to in certainly throws momentum into the slot…
but in to out certainly traces the 4:30 line better on the backswing visually… and that is important for a lot of players..

I’ll be talking about alignment here soon, and some things to consider
and ponder that I think are quite important…

Al and your dad were wonderful. I had a great time. Great weather. It’s now cold again, for the SF Bay Area, 46 degrees at noon and gusty 15 to 25 mph. Don’t want to go down to Monarch Bay or Metropolitan where Al plays today.

Al hits it beautifully, but then he did qualify and compete in the U.S. Amateur Championship in ‘71. Wonder what he felt with the persimmon. Beautiful club, b-t-w, the Tony Penna, stiff shaft, was it, your dad was playing? He hits it pretty well also.
I finished with the same ball I started with although I had to dig it outta the bush once or twice and got stickers in m’socks.

Yes, I had seen both the unconscious right shoulder rotation and a left shift problem also, elsewhere.
The left shift, according to Evershed, is due to the last minute target look which may open the shoulders and you leave them there. The solution is to be aware of it and consciously re-square at address.
The right shift was observed and a cure for it devised, somewhere I was reading, maybe lynnblake, or maybe Dart. What happens is the player tends to pull the shots and subconsciously shifts the shoulder alignment more and more closed to adjust. Doesn’t know he’s doing it. Amazing how far the ball goes when you pull it, often out of bounds. But now you’re open to shanking it.
Cure is to make the student actually swing along the subconsciously closed shoulder line that he doesn’t know he has. Have him try to hit it 15 yards right of where he thinks he’s aiming, along the line of the closed shoulders. Can’t do it? Aha. Try again, until he can. When he can do it consciously and consistently, then you allow him to gradually bring it back to the target line. Starts closing the shoulders again, go through it again.
That’s the gist of what I read. Sounds good. Don’t know whom to attribute. Maybe they got it from Al’s book with Venturi.

Now on alignment..

I think of my target line as my first 100 yards of ball flight.. once the ball gets out past 100 yards, it’s then free to curve if I am spinning or working it one way or another (damn the new balls however!)

So that’s the line I draw.. that may be my target line, or not,
but it’s very likely my plane line.. or more concisely my P3 to P4 plane line.

Once that line is established, meaning a straight line between two points, from say 100 yards out then back to my ball, I have my internal laser honing in on that..

Next I have to set my body up to that relationship. Whether my stance is open or closed, shoulders open or closed, hips, clubface, doesn’t change my relationship to that line. That relationship is determined by my lowpoint.

I really believe this is one of the most misunderstood relationships in golf, and one of the things that really separates the good from the great.

There are several things that affect this relationship to a greater degree than others..

Stance width… the wider your stance, the more lowpoint goes right.
Also, the more axis tilt you have, this moves lowpoint right as well..
but, you have to remember that axis tilt’s affect on lowpoint is
IMPACT AXIS TILT! And this is not always the same thing.. especially with some of the new swing theories out these days.

Another thing that affects our true lowpoint is our wrist action at impact. The later we release, the more lowpoint goes left or toward target. Therefore, if we have strong fast hands that can HANDLE
a late release, we have the wonderful option of playing golf off
our true lowpoint. Most people don’t..

Golfers who throw their hands at the ball early in the downswing have zero chance of playing good golf off true lowpoint.
I don’t care how many clubs you put on the ground, if your hands aren’t educated to release the club properly, your lowpoint will be
“right” of anything…. within a close proximity of ideal.

Lowpoint becomes more and more critical as the clubs get longer
because wide sweeping arcs on the downswing are not as desirable for hitting long irons, especially off the grass, or fairway woods.

The beauty of the golf swing is that the clubface seeks a “square to plane line” relationship at lowpoint, because the clubface does not travel at right angles to the plane line. Certainly from the top of the swing down… there is that magic alignment moment…

The long irons and woods love a lot of accumulator #3. Short irons are not as critical.. therefore ball placement is not as critical for short irons.

Now getting back to the hands..

The more effective the hands are through the impact arena, the
less the shoulders need to be open at impact… and the more the shoulders are closed at impact, the more this also affects ball position.. (more right)

Ball position at address is highly overrated.. you can go by “impact fix” but you sure better know exactly where that is based upon all the potential variables.

I really believe great players have a unique and wonderful sense of all this…

When you throw sidehill and downhill lies into the mix, it becomes so much more of a spacial awareness issue. Can you close your eyes and touch the tip of your nose with each finger?

The complexities of it all are quite hard to fathom.. you start to get
into instinct and almost a sixth sense.

I suppose the point I am making here is that if you can learn to release the golf club properly, it really makes alignment such an easier task and more tangible than if you don’t. Playing off true
lowpoint protocol is a great thing in golf right across the boards.
And I suppose this is why I really drill myself and my students to grasp the proper entry into impact from a deep P3 4:30 pocket so that sets up the stage for doing so down the road with much more ease and clarity. That way, when you get into working the ball,
you can rotate your plane lines around and learn to strike the ball
from various ball positions, but with the same lowpoint relationship..
and that is what makes a good player able to deal with the day to day variations which expose our lack of precision to align ourselves perfectly.. very few do.. but if we can be competent in adaption, and adjustment, within reasonable parameters.. this is the secret to consistent golf day in and day out.

Lowpoint becomes more and more critical as the clubs get longer because wide sweeping arcs on the downswing are not as desirable for hitting long irons, especially off the grass, or fairway woods.

Not as desirable? I thought sweeping WAS desirable for long irons and woods, not for mid and short irons?

Weetbix, that’s a good point. Some people think you should be sweeping long irons/woods, and some seem to think you should keep punching down on them….

On lowpoint. It’s an interesting topic… not entirely lost on me. I started experimenting with ball position back in January and this is where I first learned the relationship can effect ball shape and trajectory with driver. Low point angle of descent face angle relationship= a whole pile of new junk to sort through.

I was watching some months ago a Tiger clinic in which he talks about his ball positioning. I was surprised how minor the placement changes of his ball were. Literally he measured in ball widths. One width could be the difference between a short and a middle iron. That’s it.

Weetbix,

Actually I am not talking about how deep the divots are or punching down on the ball with long irons.. anything but..

The golf ball does not respond well to a long iron that is played back in the stance with a steep chopping deep divot.

Likewise, it does not respond well to a more forward “true lowpoint”
position with a sweeping action of an early hand release because the early hand release into the ball shallows the angle of decent or attack.

We want as steep as possible, but from a forward ball position, that way we get a maximum delayed release, but a shallow “pick it clean”
type divot.. So the proper positioning becomes very critical.. much more than with the shorter irons.

Now, my main point of concern here is that to do this … you need
to have a more sophisticated golf swing.. and this is really what separates the good from the great strikers..

Great strikers are great long iron players because of their swing,
and also their keen sense of awareness regarding ball placement
and the ability to play off true low point.

The whole thing centers around a delayed hit with the hands, whether hitting or swinging..

Well said Lag…..the long iron has become a bit of a lost art these days…
1) the holes don’t play long enough to use them going by how far most guys are driving it
2) most guys can’t hit them because of what you said so they plop a hybrid out to hide some of their inadequacies

Well said Lag…..the long iron has become a bit of a lost art these days…
1) the holes don't play long enough to use them going by how far most guys are driving it
2) most guys can't hit them because of what you said so they plop a hybrid out to hide some of their inadequacies

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

Ouch … you’ve exposed my inadequacies!

Thanks for clarifying Lag. I have never thought of it that way. I can see that the sweeping thought would in fact set you up to flip your hands through the ball because in my head sweeping has this picture of the arms, hands and club being together in line through impact. But that isn’t a good thing for compression. And leads to bad habits.

Good thought to think about.

That’s Ok weetbix….. I was referring to the top level golfers…. really if you can’t hit a 2 iron or a 1 iron you shouldn’t be making a living

Shingo Katayama at the Masters….. 7 headcovers in his bag!!! SEVEN
hasn’t got an iron longer than a 6 or a 7 iron…. I mean that just isn’t right

He definitely lost my respect when I saw that. And as icing on the cake, he just had to have one of those ridiculous spider putters. Eye-sore on golf. In 20 years he’ll just carry a remote control.

He’s won a few tournaments though. My IT company wouldn’t make a dime if we still used Windows 98, even though we have some serious expertise in this product. Lag, sorry to open up this can again.

He's won a few tournaments though. My IT company wouldn't make a dime if we still used Windows 98, even though we have some serious expertise in this product. Lag, sorry to open up this can again.

White,

I never considered an analogy between IT firms and golf. I guess there’s one in there somewhere, but I think it’s a stretch. I’d prefer one like baseball…. where records are sacred and the equipment hasn’t changed much at all. Throw out the steroid-era junk and you still have records intact that date decades back. Bats are still wood, I don’t think the ball specs have changed a bunch, gloves may be bigger, but essentially it’s the same game played in the same venues. The only thing that’s changed is the size and skill of the players.

Shingo has 26 wins in Japan…... 0 on the PGA tour. Not a bad record for a professional, but he needn’t worry about any PGA hall of fame invites anytime soon.

I don’t quite understand the angst that goes with Lag’s view on equipment. It’s put less emphasis on skill level and has brought the field closer together, allowing those less-skilled to compete with those with better skills (of course we’re talking skill levels that are way above the norm when we talk about the pros). I used to think that today’s golfers would clean the clocks of those pros from the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s. It’s a “hypothetical” but I’m not so sure anymore.

Those that don’t believe this “theory” can simply continue to rely on equipment to “cover” for their lack of skill….. it’s their choice! They will more than likely plateau at some level comensurate with how much the equipment can mask their errors. Those that allow their equipment to be used to strengthen their skills will more than likely advance beyond their counterparts that require monster iron heads and 460cc drivers to get around the course. I’m not talking about the “plays 4 or 5 times a year golfer”. I’m talking about a segment of the golfing population that is passionate about the game, probably visits these forums, and is buying new clubs annually or bi-annually….... because they’ve been duped into believing they can indeed “buy-a-game”. And that is a bunch of golfers.

I watched a Nationwide event interview this week where they asked the current leader in driving distance on that tour whether he would like to see an 8,000 yard course!!! Good lord….. when is enough enough?

I say grow the rough up, lose the square grooves (ah yes…. that’s on the way), slow down the greens (a bunch), and make a touring professional carry at least 8 irons in his set or make him wear a skirt. Goodness gracious, these guys have their names on their bags and they have to play hybrid 6-irons??? I hope his sponsor is paying him well.

Robbo

Guru
Can we somehow keep this to the G.OL.F discussion. A new thread on new and old equipment might be an option. I am OK with Lag and Showme express their sentiments and not have to respond to it even if I disagree. Because I already know their take on this issue.

I think I made some type of point somewhere else Robbo… I like what you say
I truly believe today’s equip can get an average golfer down to a certain level handicap…(for reference we’ll say 12 handicap)..... but then that’s it….. that’s as far as they will go.
The technology will bottom out their game to the point that 12 handicap will be it…. they will search and search for better and actually end up going outwards with their handicap… why?
Because they don’t have the technique to advance anymore…. the clubs have hidden their true ability up to that point….. they will listen to Leadbetter, Smith, Flick, Lynch, Bann and whomever else is on TV or in that month’s golf magazine and then totally blind themseves with things they don’t understand and then gradually work their way back up to an 18 handicap or worse and then blame the clubs and buy a new set….. Hello viscous cycle….bad golf…blame clubs…new clubs… and so on and so on
Anyone that has doubts and wants to improve vastly and go as low as we can go handicap wise…..has to use feedback clubs so you know wherein the problem lays in your swing so we can improve it

PS…. I am not knocking Shingo’s ability as a golfer…he has a great game, BUT c’mon if you can’t hit a 3 iron a 4 iron a 5 iron or even a 6 iron…you shouldn;’t be getting paid to play golf. You should be in jail for robbery of some sort

sorry macs !!!!!!! wrote while you were writing…. just wanted to try and make a point about handicap and improvement

there is a thread about modern equipment with my username on it in the golf guru section for farther discussion

sorry macs !!!!!!! wrote while you were writing…. just wanted to try and make a point about handicap and improvement

there is a thread about modern equipment with my username on it in the golf guru section for farther discussion

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

No need to apologize Shome. This thread is titled “Lag’s G.O.L.F Machine”. His philosophy on equipment is very relative to the thread.

My take is that these guys are not using hybrids or woods ‘cos they can’t hit irons just that its easier not too.

I think this whole thing is overblown, sure I love to watch the way the guys from the ‘50s ‘60s 70’s swing but equiptment changes have been happening since golf began. Who’s to say golf should be played with equiptment from the 50’s and not the old clubs that looked like hockey sticks with featherie balls.

Golf and golf equiptment has always evolved. Its the notion of par which is a relatively recent addition which causes the need for courses to be continually lengthened IMHO

Rochie,

You are 100% correct, there has always been change… however…
Golf really blossomed in the early part of the last century, and it was an incredible time for course designers such as Alister MacKenzie, George Thomas, Donald Ross, A.W. Tillinghast, to work with developers to create golf courses that were not only strategic marvels,
amazing works of art that tied together natural beauty with man’s gently shaping hand, but most importantly, secured some of the finest real estate the earth had to offer as a palate for their creations.

This is what made golf the greatest game on earth.

It was a time when these amazing properties were secured for developing a GOLF COURSE! not a subdivision with a golf course as an afterthought.

In my area (California) lets take a quick look..

Riviera CC right in Pacific Palisades of Los Angeles. The Los Angeles CC right on Wilshire Blvd in the heart of LA. Both by Thomas. The Olympic Club right in San Francisco, on the coast.
Pebble Beach, Spyglass HIll, Cypress Point, Spanish Bay, RIGHT ON THE PACIFIC OCEAN, and on one of the most beautiful coastlines in the world… Torrey Pines, on the cliffs of San Diego.
The focus of these courses was only for the pure creation of a golf course and did not have an underlying current of selling home and condo lots lining the fairways.

I think most would agree that playing a course with no sign of houses around is MORE DESIRABLE.

Now…

Getting back to the argument on equipment..
Yes things have always changed.. BUT… ever since this golden age of golf course creation.. these changes in equipment have been..
SLIGHT!!!

The size of a driver head stayed virtually unchanged from 1920
to 1990… graphite shafts added slight yardage advantage about 5 yards, but with significant loss in accuracy do to torquing.. you got something, but gave up something..

A gamma fire insert in a persimmon driver in the 70’s was said to give you an extra 3 yards..

In the 1930’s top players were driving the ball 250 yards… with a few long hitters driving it 280 yards.. In the 1980’s you still had average tour players driving the ball 250 yards.. Only the longest hitters could drive it 280 average.

Even the longest hitters still had to use long irons into long par 4’s.
There was always a give and take.. long often meant wild.

So yes, things did change, but they didn’t change much.. it was SLIGHT..

Now, with the recent changes, top players are hitting the ball 20% farther.. so that means 250 is now 300.

Championship course used to mean just that.. and that meant the the finest players in the game would be required to use
EVERY CLUB IN THEIR BAG!

460 par 4 meant driver 250, leaving 210, which meant 2 iron for even 4 wood for a second.. This meant to be a professional you were REQUIRED to learn to swing the club dynamically and properly to AMAZE the public with great long iron play.. something JOE PUBLIC could NEVER DREAM OF… You would go to see a tournament to see pros masterfully perform the games most difficult shots with ease.

Now, 460 means driver 300 second 160 or an 8 iron for most.
So what was once a hole to be feared is not a short 4 par that is basically a Yawn for a pro.

So what was once a “Championship Course” is now an out dated
antiquity. Charming, but not relevant today.

So these changes have not been slight, they have been beyond extreme.. and now the game is trying to compensate by making courses longer.. so new courses are now being built to keep up with technology..

These new courses are typically not getting at prime real estate locations due to the explosion in real estate costs, so homes must be sold along the fairways to make it possible destroying the natural beauty of what use to be something like this…

This course.. was once one of golfs most sacred treasures, beyond beautiful, and sent extreme fear into the mind of any golfer on the planet..

Now it is a JOKE of a course for tournament play.

If you don’t recognize this hole.. you might very well be missing THE POINT!!!!

So we have taken our most treasured national beauties and obsoleted them for “Championship Play” for what reason?

WHY?

How is this good for golf?

IT IS NOT GOOD!!!

It is IDIOTIC!!!

Lag
I absolutely agree with your views on the golf course within a housing block. Two years ago I dreamt of buying a house on a golf course and was actulally looking at a few, before I played a couple of rounds on the course with fairways lined with backyards with all kind of dirty laundry. I am absolutely convinced it is a bad idea for the golfers and even more so for the residents. I just dont understand why would you live in a house watching bear drinking swearing hackers every evening.
Back to the low point; when you say true low point, is it an ideal low point of the best golfers or golfers of all levels have a true low point. My guess is less than ideal golf swings will have a more rightward low point cos the pivot is not yet strong enough to support the swing to the ideal true low point.

Sorry if I missed it and I hate to be spoon fed, but how would one go about identifying and working with their lowpoints across the range of clubs? Is it a case of trial and error or is there some science (or other) to it?

Thanks

dcee

Hi Lag,

I can’t disagree with what you are saying. But I feel you are looking at things from the point of view of the pro tour.

I believe that the changes in clubs have helped a lot of people at lower levels gain signifigant enjoyment from the game who might otherwise never have done so.

I also think that if the equiptment companies had spent the last 20 years looking at ways to improve the technology in wooden drivers you would see an increase in distance with them anyway. Cricket bats are still made of wood but they hit the ball a hell of a lot further today than when I started playing 20 yrs ago.

Lag….
I was flicking through an old book I have…The Complete Golfer… by Herbert Warren Wind… He takes interviews or passages over the years of his findings about golf and golfers… some good stuff

there is a piece from 1952 by Henry Longhurst…great old English golf commentator and historian….want to share a piece of it

” .....it seemed impossible that a man the size of Hogan could reach the other player’s drives. Time and again however, he lashed the ball along thirty feet from the ground. It ran perhaps thirty yards where theirs had stopped almost dead on the soft fairways and finished five yards past the lot..
Since then I have been consulting his book, Power Golf, to see whether, unlike so many golfers who write books, he practices what he preaches. The answer is YES he does. I never saw anything quite like it. By taking his club far away from him on the backswing, and then almost as far back round his neck as our own James Adams, and then thrusting it even farther away in front after impact (by which time he was already on the outside of his left foot, with the right heel high in the air) he attains, in fact, the swing of at least a six footer. His right arm never bends after impact and it finishes in a position with which the middle aged reader may care at his own risk to experiment, namely dead straight and pointing almost horizontally behind his head.
The speed and momentum has carried him to a full finish”

Great observation

Lag Back to the low point; when you say true low point, is it an ideal low point of the best golfers or golfers of all levels have a true low point. My guess is less than ideal golf swings will have a more rightward low point cos the pivot is not yet strong enough to support the swing to the ideal true low point.

This Year goal ’Äúbreak 80” (best 84 twice)

Higher handicapped golfers low points get moved around by the sins of Quitting, Steering, Swaying and Bobbing. If the “central post” moves so will the low point. If the FLW changes shape, the low point moved. That can mean forward or backwards depending on when something flys out of ideal alignment. Most of the time its a rearward low point error.

Learning the game is all about know what is closer to ideal and then removing our current ‘moving part inventory’ until what is moving is doing so efficiently and effectively.

He's won a few tournaments though. My IT company wouldn't make a dime if we still used Windows 98, even though we have some serious expertise in this product. Lag, sorry to open up this can again.

White,

I never considered an analogy between IT firms and golf. I guess there's one in there somewhere, but I think it's a stretch.

Robbo

My analogy is as good as any. Microsoft and others have made the IT tools of trade (eg .Net, Joomla, dotnetnuke) so simple to use, covering up a multitude of sins, that I can employ 2nd rate developers and still make good money.

But I sure miss watching the Shark with a 2 iron in his hand firing at a pin with a 200 yard water carry!

Back to the business of improving my golf game …...

Learning the game is all about know what is closer to ideal and then removing our current ‘moving part inventory' until what is moving is doing so efficiently and effectively.

Guru, is there ever a reason for a player’s head to move in the back swing (backsway)? I ask this as one of the easiest things to self diagnose is a backward sway – set up with the sun behind and watch the shadow cast by the head. My shadow moves a little bit, particularly on longer clubs where I try and get a bit more turn in the upper body – not rock steady like some instruction books would like it.

He's won a few tournaments though. My IT company wouldn't make a dime if we still used Windows 98, even though we have some serious expertise in this product. Lag, sorry to open up this can again.

White,

I never considered an analogy between IT firms and golf. I guess there's one in there somewhere, but I think it's a stretch.

Robbo

My analogy is as good as any. Microsoft and others have made the IT tools of trade (eg .Net, Joomla, dotnetnuke) so simple to use, covering up a multitude of sins, that I can employ 2nd rate developers and still make good money.

But I sure miss watching the Shark with a 2 iron in his hand firing at a pin with a 200 yard water carry!

Back to the business of improving my golf game ……

White,

So….... in this case would Shingo be the 2nd rate developer, his bag of hybrids being an IT tool such as Joomla….. and as such he’s able to make good money? If so you are correct… it’s a great analogy! :)

For sure we both are in agreement re the Shark firing a 2-iron over 200 yards of h2o!

btw…. I carry one hybrid and play to a scratch at times, but I’m sure Shingo could “out long-iron” me any day of the week! These pro’s are so good it’s sick.

Robbo

Guru
I think you can control contact toe to heal by moving your PP#3 from near the hand to near the tip of the index finger. Is this correct???

That would just disturb the right hand palm grip and power transfer engineering wise. Why not just set up a little closer or further away?

Learning the game is all about know what is closer to ideal and then removing our current ‘moving part inventory' until what is moving is doing so efficiently and effectively.

Guru, is there ever a reason for a player's head to move in the back swing (backsway)? I ask this as one of the easiest things to self diagnose is a backward sway – set up with the sun behind and watch the shadow cast by the head. My shadow moves a little bit, particularly on longer clubs where I try and get a bit more turn in the upper body – not rock steady like some instruction books would like it.

It worked ok for Jack Nicklaus!

Walter Hagen famously moved his head almost a foot to the right in the backswing. He also lifted his left heel clear off the ground.

These two things are related…...

Jack Nicklaus also let his left foot and left side go where it wanted to in the backswing.

If you want to move your head, you’re going to need to release your left side.

The biggest part to avoid with regards to a sway is moving the right leg and losing balance
Like Styles pointed out….worked fine for Nicklaus…worked fine for nearly all good players because they shift their weight from central to right on the backswing…. but they don’t do it by letting the right leg fly out
If the right leg stays firm it isn’t a sway.
Think Gary Player…..kick the right leg in at address to promote stability in the lower half and then move all you want with the shoulders/head to the right to get center behind the ball at the top

3 photos…. Nicklaus..Badds (pre S/T)... Player
Firm right leg…head goes back slightly with the weight transfer.. Absolutely nothing wrong with it..if the right side stays firm.. in fact it should happen unless your body is from another planet

I think of Homer’s TGM essential of a stationary head as being correct from P3 to P4.. can’t see why you would want your head moving around through the impact arena..

Like Showme says, a firm right leg to post into on the backswing is quite essential as well. Moe Norman always made a good point of that.

having some good axis tilt on the backswing does wonders for clearing a pathway for a deep P3 4:30 delivery line. That is why we want spine tilt. Without it, we choke off our “yellow brick road” to impact.

If the head moves down on the downswing, there is excellent logic there too if it is instigated by the lower body and has the correct intentions to increase vertical ground pressures.

If the head moves down on the downswing, there is excellent logic there too if it is instigated by the lower body and has the correct intentions to increase vertical ground pressures.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Do you think that is Tiger’s intentions? His head seems to dip considerably at times coming into impact

not sure about intentions. I think Tiger is just awesomely talented and if he is doing that, it is because his ‘inner body’ is telling him its the right thing to do.

not sure about intentions. I think Tiger is just awesomely talented and if he is doing that, it is because his ‘inner body' is telling him its the right thing to do.

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

so is that who keeps yelling get in the hole??!

sorry, couldn’t resist! :-)))

The “Geddindahole” guy is actually employed by the PGA.

His true identity is a closely guarded secret largely for his own safety.

The reason he is there is to encourage the day visitor to realise its ok to applaud and cheer but also he has to piss off the season ticket holder who can knowledgeably shake his head and take comfort that oicks like that are not permitted on his private members only course.

Learning the game is all about know what is closer to ideal and then removing our current ‘moving part inventory' until what is moving is doing so efficiently and effectively.

Guru, is there ever a reason for a player's head to move in the back swing (backsway)? I ask this as one of the easiest things to self diagnose is a backward sway – set up with the sun behind and watch the shadow cast by the head. My shadow moves a little bit, particularly on longer clubs where I try and get a bit more turn in the upper body – not rock steady like some instruction books would like it.

Swaying outside the initial set up “barrel” mates consistency too hard through the impact zone. Showmewasondamoney there. A little head motion is OK and Lag was ondamoney about it having to be steady through impact.

So what causes a sway at the upper end of a golf swing? Well its probably going to combine with its bad brother Bob too. Its an overloading of the central superstructure for most of us. We simply swing too far and we sway and stand up a little in order to falsely give ourselves more room and time to wind up more to generate more power. Sadly in doing so we lose all the good we set up that came before.

Many great players have a sit down motion from transition. If they used Impact Fix, that sit down level is where their head is 90% likely to be stationary around. They know that. Mere mortals need to learn that the Impact Levels and Alignments are King, Queen, the entire Royal Family and the Rich Industrialists put together. So if you know where your noody is going to be at Impact then it can move around a little as long as it gets back to where it HAS to be.

Grout used to hold Jack N by the hair in his drills if I remember rightly.

Grout used to hold Jack N by the hair in his drills if I remember rightly.

Guru,
Try doing that with Jim Furyk…he has had no hair for about 12 years. Maybe his dad who coached him started that drill early on..!!!!!

hahahahahahaha.

JK is a great example of ‘be on plane with a FLW and lag through impact’, P3-P4.

Showme..

I just took a look at the Tiger sticky here, and he does do a fair bit of
lower body drop to increase his ground forces on the downswing.

Comes back up post impact as he is utilizing and applying those forces to create resistance and add stability through impact.

looks good to me…

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=related

Yeah I think you are right….this is a good slo mo of it… Do you think when his game goes off he doesn’t get that lower body drop as well and gets too high through the ball and then his club is mainly as Peter Kostis would say..”stuck behind him” ?

hahahahahahaha.

JK is a great example of ‘be on plane with a FLW and lag through impact', P3-P4.

Yep…..now I understand all that p3-p4 stuff better….he is on the mark.
may look strange getting there but he does it just about as well and consistently as anyone

What’s the old saying? “Beware the guy with the goofy swing that gets in the hole before you do.”

Is that really an old saying? Or have you just made that up!

You calling me old:)

If the head moves down on the downswing, there is excellent logic there too if it is instigated by the lower body and has the correct intentions to increase vertical ground pressures.

Wow that’s HUGE…a golden road to control feel with correct intentions by lower body that’s repeatable yesterday today tomorrow. ;-)

JuNiOR

Bloody hell. I go away for 24 hours and everyone has turned in to a comedy act!

LOVE the photo of Jack. In isolation he looks so out of control! If some alien flew in from the “Planet Golf” they would have a few instructive words for this “hacker”! Tiger/Badds would get the thumbs up (if they have thumbs).

It is great for you guru types to take apart Tiger’s swing as you possibly have a chance of getting to that level or at least knowing what is going on and apply it to your swing/teachings. For me, I wish you would pick on one of the ladies as I would KILL to have a swing like any of the top 50 girls!

And thanks for the discussion … still learning heaps and applying it. Knocked another shot from the handicap this week.

That Grout story is disputed…...

http://stevewozeniak.spaces...210.entry

Can’t get it link right – check out the April 2008 entry in the blog (link on left hand side).

Wouldn’t be like Jack Nicklaus to not quite make sense in an interview!

I used to have a book… Let Me Teach You Golf As I Taught Jack Nicklaus…by Jack Grout (1975)....can’t find it right now

I am fairly sure there was pictures with Jack and Grout talking about actually holding Jack’s head/hair….

so I think Mr Wozeniak in your link Beezs may be writing for the sake of writing in his blog…(he doesn’t mind bashing just about every player’s swing on the planet from the quick flick through I did)

I think I would believe it straight from Jack Grout’s book before i listened to him and his blog

I’ll try to dig it out and check for sure….got a hunch I am correct though

LOL – he has quite a few opinions alright…...

Still, I like an opinion forcefully expressed over fence sitting/everybody’s great stuff! At least you know where you’re at!

No wonder Jack got himself that crew cut as a young man….....

Further lazy web research indicates Nicklaus himself denied this story!

But enough with the hair pulling at this stage I think…....

Pros
Wanna grind the grinds: I know little about the folowing:

M – Heel, toe, and trailing edge relief. Allows the club to play with less bounce when opened, and standard bounce when square. Good for aggressive swingers from the fairway who like to play with the blade open around the greens. By far the most difficult grind to perform.

T – Trailing edge relief. Again allows the club to play with less bounce when open, but not to the extent of the M grind. Due to the trailing edge relief, overall bounce is reduced when square which is good for firm and tight conditions.

L – Leading edge grind where the leading edge of the clubface is blunted and part of the sole closest to the clubface is removed increasing bounce angle. Good for very steep swingers who experience quite a bit of turf interaction.

V – Combines the L and M grinds to provide a very versatile wedge that can be opened wide around the greens but plays with very high bounce when square.

P – “Pre-worn” sole. A channel is cut from the middle of the sole which allows the club to play with very little bounce when square, but since the full width of the sole is in tact, full bounce is retained when the club face is open. Excellent grind for tight firm fairways and lush, soft greenside conditions.

Macs,

I have always thought about this, and have wondered why more tour pros don’t carry 3 or 4 sets with them on tour for the variety of conditions we face out there..

Even switching from one round to the next, as morning and afternoon conditions can change dramatically, and of course having a rain set.

It’s not uncommon for players to tour with a couple drivers, wedges and putters, but usually just one set of irons goes out on the road.

Hitters and swingers might place a different importance upon bounce and grinds..

Moe felt that picking it clean kept the turf variations to a minimum…
but as we talked about earlier, it takes a proper golf swing to play off
true lowpoint, and picking it clean or bacon strip divots is not an option for a lot of golfers.

Steep into a true lowpoint or a more forward ball position is great if you have the hand speed and rotational speed to keep the club moving and accelerating… (hitters)

If you don’t you end up with the post impact hand flip, and compression loss.. so this is why so many teachers insist upon
their students really going down into the ground with bigger divots..
I assume to suggest that their pivots will get more aggressive over time.. however, I do think there are better ways to go about it.

Interesting stuff Macs on the grinds…

I spoke with Sevam1 a while back and he was talking about how he added loft to his clubs to increase the bounce on his Hogan Blades.
So that’s another option instead of grinding off material.. add it through loft adjustment.

great topic..