Prott,

Rumor has it that you have now converted from game improvement irons over to a set of finely tuned Hogan Blades.. the “PC” blade.

Since we are talking about equipment here a bit, would love to get your thoughts on why even higher handicappers like yourself should at least consider such a bold move.

On the downswing, with down,out, and closing (+ Dart’s rythm), I call it “Doc” in my mental pre shot thoughts, does that mean a swinger is going more out which creates arc as opposed to down which implies angle for a hitter.Also, the “Doc” refers to the lead of the hands not the clubhead, is that right?

Interesting that I was having this discussion with one of my students today..

Swinging is literally going more down and out.. so much that the club goes into an equal angular spiral, a parallel plane post impact..

Let us pretend you have a lead fishing weight on a string.. that string is attached to a stick.. as you swirl the stick in you hand, the weight swings around in a circle.
If we swing it slow, it spins around our hand like a limp umbrella… or in a cone shape.. the faster we swing the weight, the more the weight rises and if we swivel it around fast enough, it starts to look more like helicopter blades.. or single plane like, flat, not cone shaped..

So there are two things happening.. one is the pull of the outward force, the other is the rising of the umbrella…. so there is both an out, and an up reality and sensation..

Now in the golf swing it’s easy for us to feel this out.. this up happens because just like the stick, our weight, (the club) is attached at the shoulder not the belt line where our hands are.. so the faster we swing, the more the club wants to raise up and get inline with our shoulder and not our waistline (hands or elbow plane) So with swinging, the swinger welcomes this inline situation, but with hitting we resist it.. however both hitting and swinging feel the pull out..

I’ll try to find the “shots in the fog” that shows the difference between the two..

Homer talks about a parallel plane situation for swingers in TGM

(2-J-3) Homer goes into a somewhat cryptic explanation of “angle of approach and arc of approach” but makes a cry to the reader to understand what he is saying by stating, “unless you understand On Plane Inside Out Impact” NOTHING ELSE MATTERS OR WORKS”. He talks about “if the golfer uses the angle of approach method, momentum will carry the clubhead ABOVE PLANE after impact.” If the golfer uses the arc of approach method, this tends to hold the the club ON PLANE after impact.

Let’s look again at 2-J-3. “If the golfer uses the angle of approach method, momentum will carry the clubhead ABOVE PLANE after impact.”
This is the swinger’s protocol for visual delivery. The reason Homer uses an “angle” description
is because a swinger will be releasing the club into an equal-angular parallel plane situation
as the arms fly off the body. A swingers clubshaft moves off plane post impact as Homer states, because the clubshaft is seeking an inline position with the left arm. The clubshaft for standard setups typically will have a fairly large angle between the shaft and the left arm from a “down the line view” and CF does not naturally encourage this. What happens is that post impact, the left arm and the clubshaft from the DTL view will move towards this inline situation post impact with the shaft rising up and above the true plane. I see this as not a desirable situation considering the options we have, for one hitting. However, if a player is hell bent on swinging, then they have a great role model in legendary ball striker Moe Norman, who set up at address with
the left arm, clubshaft angle in line, and then delivered into impact the same inline alignment.
I don’t for any reason understand why this procedure is not “The Standard” teaching for golfers who choose the swinging platform.

Lag
Does Angle hinging give you more ball control Vs Horizontal hinging and is the later compatible with 2M3.

I am one of Lag’s students and I asked him to explain the sequencing of the golf swing as I had started to experience the concept of ‘the master accumulator’ having worked on his modules for the last eight weeks. His answer was so illuminating that I thought that I should post it up here for the thread’s benefit. Here goes…

The proper sequencing of events regarding the piggybacking effect of the power accumulators is very complex stuff when you start tearing it all apart. However,
the brain has an ability to combine these sensations into one cohesive feeling for us..
if we can get these things in the right firing order.

The modules are put together in a way to teach the student the correct order, and also
the feeling of what needs to happen at each stage.

Hogan compared trying to learn the golf swing all in one motion as like trying to sit at the piano and rip off the score for “My Fair Lady” all at once.

Learning to play a complex song would require the musician to first learn the individual chords, notes, and scales, and then slowly assemble them into the correct order to make
the song recognizable to the listener.. in our case, hitting good golf shots.

I personally play both guitar and drums, and I remember how awkward some guitar chords were in my left hand when I first tried to learn them.. my hand felt completely twisted, fingers going in strange opposing directions and so forth, but over time, these chords end up feeling as natural as blinking your eyes. Learning drums… it look a long time to train my left foot to separate from my left hand…. as they seemed to be on the same neurological train track.. after doing drills for weeks if not months.. one day it just happened like magic… and I could tap out straight time with my left hand on the ride cymbal and my left foot broke free into it’s own ability to divide up the quarter note beats
however it wanted.. it felt like an invisible ghost entered my body and took control of my foot without me having to think about it.. I think drumming on a kit with four limb independence is one of the greatest physical mastery, cerebral experiences a person can have. Great stuff.. Not all drummers have four limb independence… but the ones that do
really have an advantage.

Getting back to the golf swing..

The pivot and hands all work together..
I never agreed with Homer’s power accumulator sequencing..because the pivot is always moving to some degree.. it’s more like algebra, with subsets and parenthesis.

[ 4+(4+1) (4+2+3) (4+1) +(4+1+5) ] So 4 is alway there..

I think of it more like this… not sure this is the right mathematical way of writing it, but basically 4 is always there, and the others work within #4 as if subsets. There is lots
of overlapping going on.

I teach 2 and 3 to work first within the movement of #4.. then I teach #4 to pick up speed to then get ahead of #2 and #3 post impact to keep the feeling of acceleration going, and then finish it off with #5. #5 still uses #4 as a platform to blast off from as well.

I feel PP#4 in two stages, one at transition, the other right through and beyond impact…because the pivot does slow down to allow the hands, arms and clubhead to catch up and arrive at the P3 launching pad… then it’s like a second stage rocket firing.

hope that makes sense…

No wonder golf is such a seemingly complicated game!

Thats exactly the point Junior, the golf swing is at once complex and simple. The more you understand it, the simpler it becomes.

Do heavy clubs make it more likely that you will hook?

I now play heavier clubs + absolutely love them, but the miss is a serious pull/snap hook with longer clubs…..dead left.

I’m no Ben Hogan – but I could vomit when I see one.

PS – the heavier clubs also mean that I now have a proper short game!!!! Hugely improved feel, and can now play a lot of fun short shots much better.

Had years of mediocre-to-poor short game and the only real change I have made is to switch to a heavier set of irons and woods (not Hogan blades I’m afraid, but Callaway X-14s.)

I used to play Mizuno MX-22s and King Cobra Driver/Rescue – archetypal super light SGI clubs. Truly awful + ZERO feel/control.

I wonder if the gradual shift towards lighter clubs/swing-weights has anything to do with Hook Fear among top pros – the other side of that trend being that amateurs, who fight the OTT/slice etc, are stuck playing totally inappopriate clubs for TV/marketing reasons.

Driving F1 machines when we should be out having fun in Rally cars….......

Prott,

Rumor has it that you have now converted from game improvement irons over to a set of finely tuned Hogan Blades.. the ’ÄúPC” blade.

Since we are talking about equipment here a bit, would love to get your thoughts on why even higher handicappers like yourself should at least consider such a bold move.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Some really interesting conversation going on here, but to expand on the ‘blade theory’:

Being a higher handicapper I admit resisting the suggestion to blades for the main reasons being: 1- no confidence and 2 – a slave to marketing.

It really hit home with me as I took most of the winter to just hit the blades. The feedback became addictive. How can feedback be a bad thing?

I soon came to realize that even blades have differences. You have to be careful or you could end up with one of the modern blades that still have spongy feedback. (not all modern blades, but some)

It’s like anything else that matters… it takes time. Time to understand the feedback, but the more you do, the more you realize what a bunch of hogwash ‘Game Improvement’ claims really are. I’ve really come to honestly realize game improvement irons are like putting a band aid on a broken leg. There’s a flaw in this thinking. I don’t believe you can improve one bit with “GI” irons. You can mask what’s wrong (a bit), but not improve it.

Misshits are not treated quite a badly as marketing would have you believe, Sometimes that even works to your advantage because the ball doesn’t travel as far offline!

The “truth” is with a good blade you know exactly where you misshit. You’ll learn eventually if you pulled up, didn’t stay online long enough, were a bit too steep, or simply flushed it by feel and experience alone! That sounds like ‘game improvement’ to me.

I don't know what perspective to take on this. I play Blades because I always have and have always been able. Only Ping was selling another kind of club when I was growing up. They were light and sounded different when the ball was struck. Very light swing weights were the hot new thing and everyone put their Blades in the basement or back corner of the garage or sold them. Things went from D4 to C5 instantly.

Today's perimeter weighted clubs feel soft at impact. But wow, they are way forgiving. I like the feel of the sweet-spot collision on my Blades. But some don't want to learn, they just want to play. So, I don't resent or envy someone who doesn't practice for having Perimeter weighted clubs. I will say in all seriousness that if you want to improve your contact, buy Blades, if you want to improve your swing, take lessons from Golfguru and use TGM concepts.

I tried some Hybrids last year. I hit them FAR and perfectly straight. Not the distance control of my two Iron but a nice high trajectory and soft-ish landing. The flight of my Two Iron was my choice. I can play high or low even with the Rifle Flighted Project X shafts. I chose the shafts though for their inherent flight characteristics. So maybe I'm not such a purist after all. I didn't buy those Hybrids. Almost whenever I play, people say ’Äúwhat are you doing with those clunky things?” I have to defend myself. Things change.

The Pro's turning to Perimeter weighted Irons and Hybrid Clubs and Seven Metal-Woods in the bag are of course trying to get an extra half stroke per round and for some, they might not be on the Pro Tours without them. It's all about the money. They play to win at all costs within the rules. It's a living and livelihood. Sometimes its fun for them, just like sometimes work is fun for us. I'm sure that they get enjoyment out of doing well. But questioning their intensions is only natural. They have no regard for inspirational golf course design. They must sometimes think that some course designers are crazy or out to get them. (We know that some of them are)
What gets to me, is that the successful tour players become golf course designers.

Prot,

I couldn’t agree more on the addictive quality of blades. Once you have flushed a few you want more of the same feeling. I think that sensory feeling is part of the reason of wanting to play golf. Exactly how important it is to you will depend on your own make up, your reasons and motivations for playing the game etc.

You also make a good point on the differences between styles of blade sets. There are lots of subtle and not so subtle ways to differentiate. The main thing I have learnt picking up all these old sets is that prefer something with mass that I can “club” the ball with rather than the surgical scaple very thin top line variety. I am no expert but I have found that because of this I prefer 60’s blades to 80’s / 90’s blades in general as they just feel more substantial. May just be a function of the sets that I have picked up to date, a comfort thing or just personal preference.

Here are some gratuitous pictures of my favourite 1962ish Chesterfield/PGF Kel Nagle irons! No frightening thin top line here on this 3 iron, just lots of mass!

What gets to me, is that the successful tour players become golf course designers.

.

Well said flatleft

Ever played a good design by Palmer? For all the courses he has put his name on…maybe 1 out of every 100 is a well designed decent course…aesthetics aside
Looking forward to seeing the course Tiger is currently building…. his first design…hopefully a good one and he doesn’t give in to making a hole dictate it’s position by where they want to put homes on the side of the fairway

Crenshaw does the best design work….. why? because he’s a traditionalist at heart
Mike Clayton has done some good re design work because he sees what was intended with the hole when it was first designed.

Crenshaw looks at the surrounding nature and uses it to effect and still works on all the necessary parts a golfer really deep down looks for in a course
I spoke to him about Royal Melb and Kingston heath etc…. he said he has over 2000 photographs of these sand belt courses…2000 !!! From every different angle to see how MacKenzie made a hole talk back to the player and examine them.
because he loves the natural terrain and the way each hole tests all parts of your game on any given day and wants to give a golfing challenge back to the golfer not a resort that will sell homes

I couldn't agree more on the addictive quality of blades. Once you have flushed a few you want more of the same feeling. I think that sensory feeling is part of the reason of wanting to play golf.

Very much so. It’s most apparent if you step away from it for a while…. You truly miss it.

Thanks Shomethamoney,

I vacation in Mexico and the Caribbean where Jack Nicholas has his plastic made-up ’ÄúGolf-O-Rama” golf courses. I now make sure that wherever I go, that there are options. Even Vegas has Jack Nicholas. Ya can't tell one from the other. They're all designed just the way Jack likes to play. Drive the ball 50 yards either way and still keep the ball in the fairway, and every approach shot has to drop from the clouds over a bunker to find the green. I wonder if he's ever heard of Pitch and Run. I don't think so.

People don't design good golf courses anymore. I don't know what's happened. I think their philosophy is make it hard enough so they think they’re getting their monies worth but easy enough to be off the course within three to four hours. Tee times 10 minute apart so make holes 2,3 and 4 easy so the first tee doesn't back up. Be sure that the Bar is within 100 feet of the 18th green.

How about that. How do the good people of Oz say it; ’Äúthey're Wankers”.

(I had to look up ‘wanker’ because I didn’t know what it meant. It’s close enough)

Those Kel Nagles look so sweet.. I can see how you are in love with them..

They remind me of my set of M75 50’s MacGregors.. with the weight coming to a point right behind the sweetspot. Beautiful. When you hit it flush it is just incredible.. like catching that perfect wave if you have ever surfed… it’s worth the wait, even if you don’t catch many, it still brings you back for another day. I don’t think golf is any different on the human psyche. There is always some place down around the bend where the waves are coming in 3 foot sets all day long, but nothing like the nice lefts you have to wait for on the far side of the reef.

I was reading tonight about Wild Bill Melhorn and how he invented the compact golf head in the 1920’s. He was complaining about the toe being too long, and clubs being too light (sound familiar?) so he sawed off the toe of the club and soldered it to the back of the club behind the sweetspot, and then ended up eventually having a whole new set made up by a British club maker.. he then was so wise as to put numbers and not names on the bottom of the clubs..(he was the first to do so… that idea is still with us!)

There was also talk about the small British ball going too far, and it was endangering the integrity of the American golf courses.. so the USGA banned it and released the bigger ball to slow down the ball going too far.. What a concept! can you imagine trying to preserve the integrity of a golf course?

wish that concept was still around.

Arnie,

I know you were inquiring about this picture.. I just found it yesterday again..

Hitting (angled hinge) and on plane, vs

Swinging (dual Horizontal hinge) going into the equal-angular spiral situation.

both produced the same ball flight and were straight shots on similar trajectories.. but the hitting version is struck with better compression of course.

Both pics were at the same position at P3..

Thanks Lag,

For me thats the visual that has the most impact in this entire thread.

Cheers, Arnie

Lag, can you explain the P’s? I’m sure you’ve done it before but I must have missed it trying to catch up to the 120th page! :o)

Hi Weetabix,

Just so you don’t have to wait for Lag to wake up later in the day. Each “P” is when the club is parallel to the ground:

P1= club parallel to the ground after takeaway
P2 = club parallel to the ground at or near the the top of the backswing
P3: club parallel to the ground before impact
P4: club parallel to the ground after impact

Remember this is the club being parallel to the ground nothing to do with the club being parallel to the target line etc.

Cheers,

Arnie

Lag
i didn’t pick you for a surfer…....
very interesting

Thanks Arnie

Hi Weetabix,

Just so you don't have to wait for Lag to wake up later in the day. Each ’ÄúP” is when the club is parallel to the ground:

P1= club parallel to the ground after takeaway
P2 = club parallel to the ground at or near the the top of the backswing
P3: club parallel to the ground before impact
P4: club parallel to the ground after impact

Remember this is the club being parallel to the ground nothing to do with the club being parallel to the target line etc.

Cheers,

Arnie

Don’t forget Lag’s P5 Armie! If we’re talking Lag’s G-machine, then it’s worth noting P5. Lag will expand on it, but so I don’t leave you hanging with some cryptic response, let’s say in a nutshell it expands on Hogan’s strong belief in finishing the swing… with intent.

on the blades topic, can I just say that my routine now is to practice with the Hogan Bounce Sole blades from 1969. They give me tons of feedback.

However, they have the wrong shafts in them for me, as do the Mizuno TP 9s I have so for play I use the Calloway X20 tours.

This is what is working best for me just now.

Yes good point, thanks Prot.

Lag – way earlier in this thread you talked about the best putting lesson you ever had from Alvie Thompson the Candian Tour pro and how it was grounded in TGM principles though not terminology. I was reminded of it last night watching the Doug Sanders, Charlie Sifford and Dave Thomas Shell match. Jimmy Demaret says at one point, in the context of Charlie Siffords putting, that it reminded him of Lloyd Mangrums stroke and he had never seen a bad putter who hit down on the ball as those two did.

Different world these days on tour with the super smooth/slick greens I know. But perhaps for those of us who play most of our golf on surfaces nowhere near as good/fast/consistant it might be worth a try if we are struggling with our normal stroke?

Cheers,

Arnie

I would like to see if I am ‘onthamoney’ with this thought

Tiger’s downswing below….4.30

Mickelson’s downswing below…..more like 5.30-6 oclock

I would think by Mickelson bringing the club too far down the line into p3 he flicks his hands after impact to try and save his shots
If he is on he is on…if he isn’t he carves everything way left (for him)
Winged Foot 18th….Colonial 18th are prime examples
Put it this way his bad shot now has certainly become the push cut because of this different club path… he was never this way as much even only a few years ago… Butch might be wrong on this action with Phil

I know Tiger hits some bad ones too but his is just too fast rotation at times and he doesn’t get the club square but his path at p3 is quite good

What do you think? Does that make sense?
I am learning more about all this from Lag every day

I can’t watch Mickelson swing….

I absolutely love his short game, but as odd as it sounds I find his swing goes against a lot of things I’m trying to do (yes, even at my lowly ability).

In his defense, I don’t think Phil is as steep anymore since seeing Butch. He also doesn’t seem to overswing as much.

I have no right to comment on his mechanics, but what I see when I watch Phil with driver is- swing too long, bad weight transfer (he gets stuck on his back foot a lot), a very handsy manipulation (almost flippy) at impact.

I’m curious what Lag thinks too. Tiger is so inside the ball it’s pretty cool to think how much work he has to do from P3 to get it square. Boy he just is not getting along with that new NIKE 360CC driver though eh? How many shafts did he go through already? 3?

I would like to see if I am ‘onthamoney' with this thought

Tiger's downswing below….4.30

Mickelson's downswing below…..more like 5.30-6 oclock

I would think by Mickelson bringing the club too far down the line into p3 he flicks his hands after impact to try and save his shots
If he is on he is on…if he isn't he carves everything way left (for him)
Winged Foot 18th….Colonial 18th are prime examples
Put it this way his bad shot now has certainly become the push cut because of this different club path… he was never this way as much even only a few years ago… Butch might be wrong on this action with Phil

I know Tiger hits some bad ones too but his is just too fast rotation at times and he doesn't get the club square but his path at p3 is quite good

What do you think? Does that make sense?
I am learning more about all this from Lag every day

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

Tiger is dead-on the Turned Shoulder Plane with the club but downshifting unfortunately to the elbow plane. It’s difficult to tell from this angle because he just entered Release (need an impact and Downstroke photo to be perfectly clear). The Right Elbow Bend and Pitched Right Elbow are a give-away. He’s beginning to Uncock his left Wrist and his hands, elbow and pivot are perfectly set-up for a longish swivel with just 1/8 roll into impact. It’s a Hogan like swivel but with a Flat Left Wrist.

Phil on the otherhand has blown it. He’s on a Turned Shoulder Plane at Impact. He’s way above plane on the Downstroke and his hip location suffers from it. He holds the pivot back otherwise he’ll pull hook the ball off the golf course. He does flip in this picture otherwise he’d push (he would run out of left arm. In fact, he ran out of left arm) the ball off the course. What a slacker.

Arnie,

I am a huge fan of hitting down on the putts… especially on bad greens, but the key is to hit down without reverse loft. If you push the ball into the ground on poor greens you could be asking for unnecessary complications..

Essentially, for this to work, you need to have some loft on your putter,
so you can move your hands forward, that way you can hit down on it
with little or no loft…

The key is a descending blow into the ball… a little scruff of the grass post impact, just like other shots.. it gives me extra feel for impact.

I don’t like golf to feel like it is some kind of ultra sensitive experience.
I like firm, strong, and deliberate.. especially chipping, and pitching…
and especially out of long grass..

The bottom line is that by punching your putts a bit, in encourages acceleration through impact.. hence more feel into your hands for your brain to process.

I really believe that the weight of the ball is just not enough sensation for a lot of players, including myself, and particularly better ball strikers, because everything about their feel for the game is based upon bigger compression or impact sensations..

I often wished we had a separate putting ball that was made of lead so I could really smack it on the greens. Think how heavy billiard balls are.. and how fast the surface. The golf ball is too light on
the greens for my tastes I suppose. Divot putting really helps me a lot to be a decent putter.

Arnie,

I am a huge fan of hitting down on the putts… especially on bad greens, but the key is to hit down without reverse loft. If you push the ball into the ground on poor greens you could be asking for unnecessary complications..

Essentially, for this to work, you need to have some loft on your putter,
so you can move your hands forward, that way you can hit down on it
with little or no loft…

The key is a descending blow into the ball… a little scruff of the grass post impact, just like other shots.. it gives me extra feel for impact.

I don’t like golf to feel like it is some kind of ultra sensitive experience.
I like firm, strong, and deliberate.. especially chipping, and pitching…
and especially out of long grass..

The bottom line is that by punching your putts a bit, in encourages acceleration through impact.. hence more feel into your hands for your brain to process.

I really believe that the weight of the ball is just not enough sensation for a lot of players, including myself, and particularly better ball strikers, because everything about their feel for the game is based upon bigger compression or impact sensations..

I often wished we had a separate putting ball that was made of lead so I could really smack it on the greens. Think how heavy billiard balls are.. and how fast the surface. The golf ball is too light on
the greens for my tastes I suppose. Divot putting really helps me a lot to be a decent putter.

Arnie,

I am a huge fan of hitting down on the putts… especially on bad greens, but the key is to hit down without reverse loft. If you push the ball into the ground on poor greens you could be asking for unnecessary complications..

Essentially, for this to work, you need to have some loft on your putter,
so you can move your hands forward, that way you can hit down on it
with little or no loft…

The key is a descending blow into the ball… a little scruff of the grass post impact, just like other shots.. it gives me extra feel for impact.

I don’t like golf to feel like it is some kind of ultra sensitive experience.
I like firm, strong, and deliberate.. especially chipping, and pitching…
and especially out of long grass..

The bottom line is that by punching your putts a bit, in encourages acceleration through impact.. hence more feel into your hands for your brain to process.

I really believe that the weight of the ball is just not enough sensation for a lot of players, including myself, and particularly better ball strikers, because everything about their feel for the game is based upon bigger compression or impact sensations..

I often wished we had a separate putting ball that was made of lead so I could really smack it on the greens. Think how heavy billiard balls are.. and how fast the surface. The golf ball is too light on
the greens for my tastes I suppose. Divot putting really helps me a lot to be a decent putter.

Arnie,

I am a huge fan of hitting down on the putts… especially on bad greens, but the key is to hit down without reverse loft. If you push the ball into the ground on poor greens you could be asking for unnecessary complications..

Essentially, for this to work, you need to have some loft on your putter,
so you can move your hands forward, that way you can hit down on it
with little or no loft…

The key is a descending blow into the ball… a little scruff of the grass post impact, just like other shots.. it gives me extra feel for impact.

I don’t like golf to feel like it is some kind of ultra sensitive experience.
I like firm, strong, and deliberate.. especially chipping, and pitching…
and especially out of long grass..

The bottom line is that by punching your putts a bit, in encourages acceleration through impact.. hence more feel into your hands for your brain to process.

I really believe that the weight of the ball is just not enough sensation for a lot of players, including myself, and particularly better ball strikers, because everything about their feel for the game is based upon bigger compression or impact sensations..

I often wished we had a separate putting ball that was made of lead so I could really smack it on the greens. Think how heavy billiard balls are.. and how fast the surface. The golf ball is too light on
the greens for my tastes I suppose. Divot putting really helps me a lot to be a decent putter.

[ 4+(4+1) (4+2+3) (4+1) +(4+1+5) ] So 4 is alway there..

I think of it more like this… not sure this is the right mathematical way of writing it, but basically 4 is always there, and the others work within #4 as if subsets. There is lots
of overlapping going on.

I teach 2 and 3 to work first within the movement of #4.. then I teach #4 to pick up speed to then get ahead of #2 and #3 post impact to keep the feeling of acceleration going, and then finish it off with #5. #5 still uses #4 as a platform to blast off from as well.

I feel PP#4 in two stages, one at transition, the other right through and beyond impact…because the pivot does slow down to allow the hands, arms and clubhead to catch up and arrive at the P3 launching pad… then it's like a second stage rocket firing.

hope that makes sense…

aiguille
I have not met P5 in the “book” before. Can you please explain what that pressure point is.

Hans

Showme,

Tiger is nicely on the 4:30 line here.. his iron swing is very sound.

It’s no mystery he struggles with his driver, and I really blame the driver itself. Too light, and I have said this over and over that the modern drivers are so out of sync with the rest of the clubs in the bag, it really creates big problems..

Tiger and Phil both have egos, and bombing the ball long is part of what they know they have to do in today’s tour game. The courses are more open than they used to be.. and off fairway recoveries are just common place.

Tiger is very strong, and the modern drivers are just too light for him to feel the club. He has terrible over acceleration problems with the driver, and you can see it in the high speed photos, swingvision and all that. He loses shaft flex before impact so driving the ball for him is like watching a popcorn kernel in the hot oil.. it could go anywhere.

I really think he would solve the problem immediately if he swung a driver that weight wise was right in line with his irons.. but he would lose too much distance, and since he doesn’t have to really hit it straight, he chooses not to.. he’s aware of these things I’m sure.

I think working on his horizontal ground forces would help him a lot..
It’s hard to be too critical.. but I do suspect he would be an even better striker in the persimmon age.

Everyone thinks they know what Tiger needs.. but this is just my two cents.

Hansli,

Lag’s overarching principle, or holy grail, of the golf swing is sustaining lagpressure, holding the flex of the shaft or having the feeling that the grip end of the club is moving quicker than the clubhead throughout the golf swing.

The only way to do this is to have an accelerating swing such that one has the feeling if not the reality that the club is moving quicker post impact.

Its not easy, particularly if you have never felt it before! But it is achievable….the really tricky part is how to accelerate post impact and this is where the fifth accumulator comes in….

Having deployed the hitters technique of pulling the club out of its natural orbit, or desire just to dump into the ground out to right field….this puts enormous feel in the hitter’s hands, almost a slashing feeling, you can almost sense the grooves rasping across the ball through impact.

So how does one accelerate from this already very powerful position?

After all, most of the traditional power accumulators are spent, however #4 is still there as is the ability to lift your arms which had been tightly packed in through impact…its this lifting of the arms and further rotation of the pivot which is the rather enigmatically titled fifth accumulator as described by Lag.

I am sure Lag will post a much more desriptive answer but I hope that explains a bit…#5 refers to the fifth accumulator, not a pressure point per se.

Remember to keep accelerating!

Aiguille

As far as Phil…

He is smart to swing the way he does, because he is a swinger.. not what I would call a pivot driven hitter..

His lines are crooked and all over the place, but he he gets into a decent position at P3, and just slings it out as swingers do into the off plane post impact sea shell (equal-angular) spiral thing that I personally am not a big fan of.

Like all people who swing that way, it’s very hit and miss, all timing and tempo, which Phil is very good at.. but when it’s off, it’s going all over the place.. He plays everyday, and is great at managing his different feels and demons, so he know’s what to do to get it around.. like Tiger he is lost with the driver, but like I said the PGA Tour allows and even promotes that style of golf.. I don’t.

Both these guys are short game geniuses, or they wouldn’t have the trophy racks they do.

All around I think Tiger is a much better ball striker.

The pressure point for the 5th accumulator is in the hands, but where it is depends upon the type of hinge action you used post impact..

At that point in the swing, the pressure moves more under the shaft, so
where ever the hands are on the club depending upon the rotation of the hands at P4 and beyond will determine where that pressure is being applied. It’s not really all the complicated..

Homer didn’t include this in TGM because he was only thinking about how power is being applied into the ball.. not necessarily beyond it.. yet he talks about hitting Through the Ball about 8 million times.. so he was aware of it I’m sure. Especially for pivot driven hitters.. not so much for CF swingers..

Off to the golf course for a round with Mr Barkow!

Showme,

I really think he would solve the problem immediately if he swung a driver that weight wise was right in line with his irons.. but he would lose too much distance, and since he doesn't have to really hit it straight, he chooses not to.. he's aware of these things I'm sure.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Shock Horror, I could not agree more Lag with that assessment. lol… Call me crazy but I would have thought it mandatory for any golfer to have a uniform swingweight throughout their whole set Driver – Wedge… Is this not common place? Does this not bring in a variable that does not need to be in place ie different “feels” throughout a set… WOW seems like common sense to me if I was going to be a golf pro.

Re Tiger losing distance, I dont think that would occur as I know for a fact he has a whole lot more in the bag than he shows on course. Distance wise he is very restrained when in tournament play compared to some of the stories I have heard about his distance abilities from the US LD boys.

Whilst distance is nice, surely consistant feel is a premium for the tour pro… I cant believe I just said that!! hahahaha….

My 460cc TM driver floats. None of my other clubs are that way inclined. I am trying to seemlessly swap between this driver and its 3-wood cousin on the practice tee but they very different animals in my hands.

My 460cc TM driver floats. None of my other clubs are that way inclined. I am trying to seemlessly swap between this driver and its 3-wood cousin on the practice tee but they very different animals in my hands.

What do you mean by “floating” White? I am pretty sure from the way you are describing it as a negatively quality, not the “float” that we desire in LD?

“Floating” is the optimum condition to get in LD where you hit the ball with a very low spin rate and the ball “floats” in its carry, resulting in a travel that is extraordinarily long. It is characterised as a flat trajectory (can be high or low in launch) that has no “rise” or “lift” in its flight. This is a very desirable quality to get mate. If you ever see the ball off a driver rise or lift you are officially “dead” as you have no control over it’s flight and are at the mercy of the elements with a ball that will go anywhere and land very softly!

Lag I hear this screaming your name…hope I’m not breaking any rules but had to show it hope you guys get a kick out of it.

JuNiOR

ebay link

Tiger,

That’s a tough one to believe.. maybe.. but I would think I would see
some wear marks on the face slightly in from center on those things if they were Ben’s main playing set..

Maybe Ben owned them.. I own about 20 or so sets, and only a couple of them would I take to a serious event.

Personally, I’d rather own Hogan’s swing than his clubs..! .lol

That’s a fun link! who knows.. maybe that was Ben’s great set!
I’d like to own a set of those anyway…

My 460cc TM driver floats. None of my other clubs are that way inclined. I am trying to seemlessly swap between this driver and its 3-wood cousin on the practice tee but they very different animals in my hands.

What do you mean by ’Äúfloating” White? I am pretty sure from the way you are describing it as a negatively quality, not the ’Äúfloat” that we desire in LD?

’ÄúFloating” is the optimum condition to get in LD where you hit the ball with a very low spin rate and the ball ’Äúfloats” in its carry, resulting in a travel that is extraordinarily long. It is characterised as a flat trajectory (can be high or low in launch) that has no ’Äúrise” or ’Äúlift” in its flight. This is a very desirable quality to get mate. If you ever see the ball off a driver rise or lift you are officially ’Äúdead” as you have no control over it's flight and are at the mercy of the elements with a ball that will go anywhere and land very softly!

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

I mean “floats on water”. The head is obviously hollow. My 3-wood and hybrids don’t float so must be filled with a heavier than water substance and I would assume they have a more consistent weight as compared to their size.

I play with a guy (ex rep hockey player) who smashes his driver a long way and the ball noticably lifts in flight from an initially low trajectory. He is wild off the tee as his swing is all over the place but when he gets them they are fun to watch. So this is bad in long driving?

Lag,

I just wanted to reiterate what a great post you had earlier on alignment and low point..Some true insight for me!

I've got a couple of examples I want to run by you to make sure your points are clear in my mind. #1) If my goal is to hit it as high as possible with a ball position to the extreme right & a max shallow approach from a lie well above my feet, I might do the following coming into and through impact A) release early, B) closed shoulders, C) have axis tilt and D) widen my stance.. Example #2 If I have a 4-iron fairway bunker shot I might A) release late, B) open my shoulders, C) have no axis tilt D) narrow my stance, E) Move the ball slightly left in my stance and F) and add ACC#3

Have I got it right? Thanks for your help

Re: this technique of pulling the club out of its natural orbit etc.

Does this mean basically dropping the club from the top of the backswing a little…...to sort of allow for extra right arm participation from a deeper position behind the body – get to top of backswing, start back (leg action) and drop club – then WHAM!

Would love to hear Styles’s take on the ‘out of orbit’ and right arm ideas and sensations as he seems to have had some success with them lately.

Warning: I have bought my impact bag!

Glide…..WHAM!

Hi Lag,

Just back to putting for a second or two. Do you view putters the same way as irons (i.e) perimeter weighting nulifies pure feedback etc? How about the weight of a putter which I think Beez raised in another thread? If you already find the weight of a golf ball too light,as you said above. wouldn’t a heavier putter just make that worse?

Cheers, Arnie

I agree, I think a tight sweetspot on a putter is nothing but good. The stroke needs to be precise, and getting great feedback is critical to having that happen..

I course I would be in favor of much more regulation on equipment, and I really have to laugh at some of the space age looking stuff I see out on the market.. I really believe that everyone would do themselves a big favor if they completely let go of the idea that technology is the answer to better golf. Technique is much MORE the answer. Probably 90-10.

Arnie, you make a good point about the heavier putter making it seem worse, in that you can’t feel the ball.

For me it is a lesser of two evils.. I either have light putter that is so far removed from my other clubs.. being too light.. and I do get more ball feel that way.. but.. it is still not enough…

Therfore, I can give up the ball feel, and go with a heavy putter that at least I CAN FEEL..

As we move down through our set, we come to the wedges, which have MUCH heavier heads in dead weight than our long irons.
for instance I have a wedge that has an 12 ounce head on it.
Yet my 1 iron is about 7.5 in head weight.

Now this leads to the next obvious conclusion..

As we get closer to the green our clubs get shorter and heavier..
much heavier, and for good reason..

Now we walk onto the dance floor, and now I am handed a toothpick from my caddie? It makes ZERO sense to me if I look at things from a perspective of FLOW.. some of my putters have 5 ounce heads!
Throw in a super loose shaft to boot.

It should be short and heavy.. heavier than a sand wedge.. at least to me.. and stiff.

I can’t do short anymore with the putter, because it just kills my back having to bend over 60 degrees from the waist, and I have never been able to putt with long straight arms.

There are two things missing for me on the greens.. a club I can feel, and the violent shock from the impact coming up the shaft, combined with some vibration from the divot from the ground. As divots get steeper and more proportionally relevant as we get closer to the green or to the hole.. it just makes no sense to me that that relevance of a bigger vibration coming up the shaft, that that feel.. goes away on the putting green..

My golf swing is based upon feeling and utilizing CF in a big way..
on the greens I get zero CF pull as far as I’m concerned.

So the only thing I CAN DO.. is putt with a putter that has a heavy head.. and I also am filling the shaft up with rock salt. It is now the heaviest club in my bag by a long shot, not the lightest… and the stiffest.

I also made a putter that has teeth on the bottom, so as it hits the green, it literally stops after impact.. so now I am getting some of the impact feel back into my stroke. This way, I can grip it firm, I can feel the head, and I can hit down slightly and putting now feels like an impact bag..
which is GREAT! The best thing is … I don’t have to practice.. I only need to roll a few putts on a green, to get a sense of the speed, and how they are rolling out.. and NO thought on the stroke.

Last month I played the Presido Golf Club in SF in a little pro am and birdied 6 of the last 11 holes.. without a bogey on really bad greens. So when that kind of thing happens,
it tells me I am on the right track.. because I love the idea, that I have THAT kind of putting in the bag even if it stays mostly dormant.. I know it is there.. and I didn’t have to grind on my putting to have that happen. I like to know that my putting can “once in a while” be explosive. I still enjoy going deep, shooting a 65 or whatever, even if it’s just a couple rounds a year. it’s really fun!
But you need to make putts to even do that..

Anyway, the point I am trying to make, or I continue to seek in this game as a player, is to feel a flow, and sense of sameness throughout my game from tee to green.. So a persimmon driver that basically is just a SLIGHT extension from say my 1 iron in both length weight, and overall feel.. and then on the other end as I get closer to the hole, my putter is more like my short irons.. so there is a gradual transgression like a golden rainbow.. and this is the key to golf without having to practice.. I don’t practice.

Thanks Lag, fascinating stuff as usual…..

I mean ’Äúfloats on water”. The head is obviously hollow. My 3-wood and hybrids don't float so must be filled with a heavier than water substance and I would assume they have a more consistent weight as compared to their size.

I play with a guy (ex rep hockey player) who smashes his driver a long way and the ball noticably lifts in flight from an initially low trajectory. He is wild off the tee as his swing is all over the place but when he gets them they are fun to watch. So this is bad in long driving?

All heads are hollow mate, I am yet to see one split and have something come out of it. Perhaps the less density you feel in the 3 wds are due to the lower volume involved and therefore they feel “more solid”

A lift in flight is a bad thing when it comes to maximising distance. It happens with high rates of backspin where the ball will upshoot into the wind. When the ball upshoots it can then be pushed and pulled by crosswinds. If hit into a fair breeze they can nearly look like they are going in a supersonic elevator. The problem being when a ball climbs it increases its trajectory and the descent of such a ball flight is very steep which will cause a ball to land extremely softly with next to no roll. If I personally hit a ball that “lifts” I bend over and pick up my tee as I know it is not going to get a maximum carry and roll.

Launch trajectory is fairly irrelevant, it is basically a spin contest. You can hit a high launch with a low spin rate and get an awesome carry and roll. Even into strong winds and in strong crosswinds a ball hit with low spin will bore through the wind and remain relatively untouched. We call this ball flight a “floater” and it is a very desirable quality to have. The flight is characterised by an extremely flat nature – like a dart flight… Hit a ball like this and you will achieve a shallow trajectory on landing and get a hot release with run…

Lag, great stuff on putting. Please tell more about teeth on putters. Photos would be great to getsome better idea.

So far with the putting, I have only been using myself as a test subject for the concepts, and haven’t unleashed the ideas onto my students.. as I am first trying to get them onto the putting green first! lol

Regardless of the stroke or club itself.. a player must have a touch for speed.. and I feel I do have a certain gift for that.. being a very good
approach putter… my issue has always been line.. not speed.

Putting,

you have to read it right, you have to start it on the intended line, and at the right speed. You DON’T have to aim it correctly… read the last sentence again..

I remember the week I won The Windsor Charity Classic in Canada,
I NEVER once aimed on line.. I aimed left on every putt all week, and just pushed the ball to the right…. and down the line all week. really just going at the inside quadrant, and had all kinds of wrist action going..
It was a big out to in loop and a push… I remember it really working well on breaking putts because if it was a left to right putt, I was aiming to play too much break, and then feeling I was pushing it down the hill.. If I quit on the putt a bit, I would tend to pull it up the hill some, but that “quit” gave the ball less speed, but the “pull” essentially created more break.. so I might very well still make the putt..

Very interesting stuff.. because that way, making the putt, suddenly had more that one option.. a soft pull with less break, or a firm push with more speed but less break, so I started to feel that I could still make the putt even if I pushed or pulled it..

That is a putter’s dream!

It was an incredible run with the putter.. I had shot 7 under the week before in Winnipeg, 17 under at Windsor, played a 2 day pro am the next week and shot 66 65. So in 10 rounds I was 37 under par. And that is really because of putting… I’ve hit the ball better though 10 rounds and not scored anywhere near that..

I wrote down as much as I could about putting, and I still have those notes.. and all the ideas from Alvie Thompson that led up to that weeks before when I took a lesson from him in Vancouver in June of 91.

But then somehow golf comes back to haunt you again, and two weeks later I couldn’t find the hole and missed the cut at the Quebec Open. I was hitting it great.. but it was like the hole had a piece of glass over it.. the stroke felt good, putts looked good, but I could not get anything to fall.. I obviously wasn’t short on confidence.. so that wasn’t it.. all the concepts were there.. but the grass was different..
the greens were a bit spongy and rolled different.

That’s the thing about putting, unlike ball striking where the club hits the ball and it goes off into the air.. with putting it has to roll across a surface all the way from the ball to the hole, and it’s not as easy to control what is going on during “the roll” as it is during “the flight”

Moe talked about this to me all the time..

He’d look up into the air and point..

The air, it’s the same, the same, the same”

Then he would point to the putting green…

“that’s not the same, it’s not the same, it’s not the same”

It was hard to disagree.. so you put your clubs in the car, pay your hotel bill, tip your caddy, put in some petrol, and drive off into the sunset hoping the “putting fairy” comes for another visit someday.

Junior, how are you consistently driving the ball with minimum spin? Are you getting to it at the precise bottom of your swing? On the up? Down through?

I have an idea of what you are saying as I hit the longest drive of my life on Saturday – the ball went a little higher than normal and it flew many yards past my normal landing spot and just bounced and ran and ran. I knew I’d hit something special without even looking it was so sweet. I have been working on this “feel” for some weeks but don’t really know why this particular drive delivered such long and straight results. I always thought backspin was good to keep the ball straight in cross winds.

Arnie,

Hi Weetabix,

Just so you don't have to wait for Lag to wake up later in the day. Each ’ÄúP” is when the club is parallel to the ground:

P1= club parallel to the ground after takeaway
P2 = club parallel to the ground at or near the the top of the backswing
P3: club parallel to the ground before impact
P4: club parallel to the ground after impact

Remember this is the club being parallel to the ground nothing to do with the club being parallel to the target line etc.

Cheers,

Arnie

Maybe the terms are used different than I learned from Mike Bender, who studied under Mac O’Grady. P’S refer to position. We have 10 p’s during the swing P-7 is impact.

I use different terms than Mac..

I just don’t think the golf swing needs that many divisions.. the less the better.. if I thought I could teach it in just two motions, back and through I would.. but P1 – 5 cover everything I need to convey..

the move into P1 starts the takeaway.. P2 moves you into the top of the backswing.

The transition from the top.. we load, compress and deliver to the launching pad at P3..

The move over to P4 defines the vital path, plane and the intention of the hinge action.. with impact just getting in the way..

The move to P5 I really like PV5 (vertical) establishes our final destination and intentions..

These five “P”s certainly cover all of the swings actions, and give enough space in between for the body to have a reasonable range of motion to work on movement, or strengthening drills.

If you divide it up and include all the vertical positions too, it complicates things much more.. and I question the benefit of that.
If I say P3 it’s easy for the student to go there quickly as a starting position for a bag drill or whatever…

There is just no possible way a student can think of 3 or 4 things on the downswing. You could feel something at transition, and maybe a firing at the bottom.. but no way more than that…

I only use these to do drill work anyway.. on the course .. forget all has been said and “dance with the gal you brought”

Lag
Thats a good one. Fro me I swing best when I am not even feeling the transition. So the tempo is a push back with my pivot and the next thing I want to feel is a wait at p3. I almost feel that my hands are there waiting to catch the club and run with it. If I attempt to feel the club to the top and then transition I often overswing and OTT on the way back. Does one really need to feel the top of the swing and transition?.

Junior, how are you consistently driving the ball with minimum spin? Are you getting to it at the precise bottom of your swing? On the up? Down through?

I have an idea of what you are saying as I hit the longest drive of my life on Saturday – the ball went a little higher than normal and it flew many yards past my normal landing spot and just bounced and ran and ran. I knew I'd hit something special without even looking it was so sweet. I have been working on this ’Äúfeel” for some weeks but don't really know why this particular drive delivered such long and straight results. I always thought backspin was good to keep the ball straight in cross winds.

White, it is all about consistantly practising and training for the flight you are looking for. However there are some things that help with low spin rates…

Obviously our lower lofts aid us to control the spin rate to a degree, however as you pointed out this will increase sidespin effects (not that we [LDers] could ever claim to use precision [sarcasm])

I dont like to use the term “hit up” as it brings to mind the wrong feelings and incorrect body motions. I rather term it a “positive angle of attack”. In TGM terms this would mean making impact ahead of the swing’s low point. How far in front depends on the strength and speed of the individual and experimentation.

Shallow path into the ball: By this I mean “not intentionally hitting down on the driver”. I see many amateurs who approach the ball too steeply, this is a sure fire way to increase backspin not minimise it.

Teeing the ball higher: This encourages a shallow path and the positive attack we look for.

You are right in the thinking that backspin stabilised the flight however the “lift” slows the ball speed and what you are getting in the “up” you are losing on the “out”. A shot that has lower spin and more forward penetration will have better aerodynamics for boring through the air and will be effected less in wind conditions. Of course this is taking into account that you hit it flush with little hook or slice spin. Hit side spin and no much saves this, even for us.

The need for high backspin for flight stability is one of many golf ball flight myths, the biggest of which is a draw will go further than a fade but we can cover that at a later date if people are interested.

Junior

Lag
Thats a good one. Fro me I swing best when I am not even feeling the transition. So the tempo is a push back with my pivot and the next thing I want to feel is a wait at p3. I almost feel that my hands are there waiting to catch the club and run with it. If I attempt to feel the club to the top and then transition I often overswing and OTT on the way back. Does one really need to feel the top of the swing and transition?.

This Year goal ’Äúbreak 80” (best 84 twice)

That is a very good thing to be developing MACS, there is a definite “wait” or “float” in transition before the power is poured on! The body needs time to stabilise before you can fire. Congratulations on such a good and positive development.

Junior

Lag,

Do you still see value in the 12 sections of the swing as presented by Homer Kelley if you taught a beginner, or are you saying that the 5P’s are enough?

I have one more question please. I’m clear about how important hand pressures are in your swinging and hitting, but what percentage of the pro’s play that way? Is it most of them, or do they all play that way?

Macs,

everything really depends upon the degree of pivot rotation on the backswing…

If you can make a great turn but keep hand travel to a minimum, you enter a whole new world of transition.

If you can feel the pivot is doing the bulk of the movement, the wait and delays become a by-product rather than something you “have to do”

This type of golf swing embraces more of our natural desire to just “react” rather than concentrate upon feeling slow, waiting, pausing,
all those very unnatural sensations in a high velocity impact sport such as golf..

However..

For us to be able to feel a quick back quick through impulsive strike upon the golf ball, we have to do that driven by the pivot and not the arms.. and secondly, you need to develop the strength and muscular support for such an activity.. I’m talking hitting here..

For those who don’t have the strength or refuse to commit to a proper training course to develop the necessary muscular structure within the body, then those golfers are bound to the world of swinging.. and although that technique can be mastered as well,
guaranteed results become much more questionable.. Some have it some don’t.

I agree with Dart, anyone can learn to hit.

I respect that Homer acknowledged twelve sections of the swing..

However, most good strikers I know, particularly hitters, can literally start from an “at the top” loaded position, and hit a golf ball. It’s not mandatory that a golfer even take a backswing, yet alone address, setup, impact fix, or preliminary address.. helpful? yes..
mandatory? no..

I start my students at Homer’s 8-9 or what he calls release position.
8-9 8-10 8-11
release, impact, follow through..

I call it P3 to P4.

I think impact is really incidental.
In other words, impact is just in the way of getting over to P4 or even beyond. Once I move the club forward, it’s all about committing to my predetermined P5, or PV5 with as much conviction as I can muster.

Homer admits that these divisions are really only for the purpose of pinpointing interim locations.

The less divisions the better.

If I could figure out a way to get students to make all the proper moves in two simple actions or drills I would..
on the other hand, I don’t think slicing the “swing pie” into too many pieces is beneficial, unless those slices contain some very important
biomechanical functions that will directly move the player towards increasing lag pressure upon the shaft of the golf club through the impact arena.

One of my students told me he spent 10 months with an instructor that never got him past the top of the backswing..

All I can say to that is.. I hope you took some nice photos of that backswing for either wallpaper, or a marble statue made.

This thread turned 1 year old today!

Thanks for everyone who fed and nourished it in it’s infancy!

Looks like Dart’s hat.

Congratulations Lagpressure and Golfguru. This thread has more posts than any other about TGM.

I use different terms than Mac..

I just don't think the golf swing needs that many divisions.. the less the better.. if I thought I could teach it in just two motions, back and through I would.. but P1 – 5 cover everything I need to convey..

the move into P1 starts the takeaway.. P2 moves you into the top of the backswing.

The transition from the top.. we load, compress and deliver to the launching pad at P3..

The move over to P4 defines the vital path, plane and the intention of the hinge action.. with impact just getting in the way..

The move to P5 I really like PV5 (vertical) establishes our final destination and intentions..

These five ’ÄúP”s certainly cover all of the swings actions, and give enough space in between for the body to have a reasonable range of motion to work on movement, or strengthening drills.

If you divide it up and include all the vertical positions too, it complicates things much more.. and I question the benefit of that.
If I say P3 it's easy for the student to go there quickly as a starting position for a bag drill or whatever…

There is just no possible way a student can think of 3 or 4 things on the downswing. You could feel something at transition, and maybe a firing at the bottom.. but no way more than that…

I only use these to do drill work anyway.. on the course .. forget all has been said and ’Äúdance with the gal you brought”

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag, We use these numbers to convey the specified area simply for communication, as opposed to some teachers that may say ” this postion about here” Our system makes it more specific and easy for student and teacher to be on the same page.

Lag,
Guru and Dart put me on to impact fix a few weeks ago and the improvement in my consistency is excellent – my handicap is starting to move down after 6 months at a plateau. As a “student” who doesn’t really get TGM I’d be interested to know if you have introduced this concept to your students and if so, why? And of course, if not, why not?

Lag regards it as a given.

Never loose it. Good for you.

Hi Lag,
Wondering how’s your march towards the US Open @ Bethpage ?

Cheers

Kyc,

Thanks for asking..

I played my one practice round today with my old touring pal Kris Moe .. the Q is on Tuesday, so I’m taking the day off tomorrow.

Not sure how many spots there are, maybe 4? It’s a one round crap shoot..

The course is beyond severe…. I didn’t know it was a Nicklaus course or I might have chosen a different site. You need to bomb it so you can hit short irons in.. drop them in high to hold the ball on the greens, and the greens are as fast as any US Open.

Today I struck it pretty good actually so that is encouraging.. but it’s the kind or course where anything can happen.. you can make doubles, triples or worse with only slight mishits. My short game is far from being in the kind of shape to finesse my way around this place.. so I’ll really need to pure the ball tee to green.

Today, I hit 11 greens, made 4 birdies, had a triple and three doubles.. I didn’t hit every shot perfect, but I didn’t make any “bad” swings. This is tightrope golf..

What I need to do is hit 14 greens out there.. get up and down twice,
and avoid three putting the lightening greens. If I can make 4 birdies
that will be key because this is the kind of course that is so penalizing that bogeys will happen even hitting good solid golf shots.
That’s Nicklaus courses. Just the way it is..

From what I hear, few players shoot par out there.. 71 makes it every year from what I have been told..

Anyway.. I’m sure I’ll turn some heads when I pull my head cover off on the first tee!

If anyone is around the Bay Area and wants to jump on the bag, let me know.. teeing off at 8 am..

lagpressure@yahoo.com

Good luck Lag…..

Lag, just do what you do and I’m sure it’ll be good enough. I can’t say I believe in luck, but I do think you can make your own.

Kick old man par in the pants and enjoy the moment!

I was just reading in Golf Magazine, a great interview with Rocco Mediate after his playoff loss to Tiger at the U.S. Open; He commented on his qualifier…..

He said the ‘kids’ were out bombing him by a mile. They’re cracking it 300 hundred, he’s always the first one to hit, but from the fairway. But he said he relished it, because he took that challenge and took his shoots as close to the pin as possible and was enjoying ‘putting the sweat’ on the kids.

I thought it was an interesting point of view. He took it as a challenge to put pressure on the younger guys just bombing it.

How many rounds is the Q? 4?

I found this post very interesting, relating it to my experiences since taking on Lag’s approach to TGM.

Macs,

everything really depends upon the degree of pivot rotation on the backswing…

If you can make a great turn but keep hand travel to a minimum, you enter a whole new world of transition.

I understand this. It took a while of learning that overwinding of the arms just add extra…. crap to this swing. No good can come of it IMHO.

If you can feel the pivot is doing the bulk of the movement, the wait and delays become a by-product rather than something you ’Äúhave to do”

This type of golf swing embraces more of our natural desire to just ’Äúreact” rather than concentrate upon feeling slow, waiting, pausing,
all those very unnatural sensations in a high velocity impact sport such as golf..

This part above is kinda tricky. In an armsy, swinging motion, is there a great need to slow down at the top, await the transition? I think so.

Does the need to slow down exist with hitting? I still think so. It is more a need to gradually accelerate though. The reasoning is different, but I find rushing down is still a demon, causing casting, and pre-mature acceleration! (sorry no pills for that problem)

However..

For us to be able to feel a quick back quick through impulsive strike upon the golf ball, we have to do that driven by the pivot and not the arms.. and secondly, you need to develop the strength and muscular support for such an activity.. I'm talking hitting here..

For those who don't have the strength or refuse to commit to a proper training course to develop the necessary muscular structure within the body, then those golfers are bound to the world of swinging

I’m at a point where when I’m doing the bag drill with a 2 iron, the hands travel maybe… a foot, and I can pound the bejesus out of that bag. Could I do this with a ball? No way. The beauty of the drill is, the club never gets above your waist.

This means from that point (waist height) it is “GO” time. That’s nice, and simple. Sometimes I wonder what my 2 iron club head speed is at the impact bag. It feels very, very hard.

My ‘hand/arm’ travel might only be about 1 foot in that impact drill, but the deception here is that the hands/wrists/forearm/core are doing TREMENDOUS work here. (that one foot of hand movement is a mountain of work for the rest of the body IMHO).

You’ve given me a thought to try at the range tonight. For fun, I am going to hit the ball like an impact bag. I’ve never actually done that. I’d guess it would result in straight, but very short hits, but it might be a good warm up drill. Because truth is, there still seems to be some connection between the top of the backswing, and club head speed, even if I don’t want to admit it (makes me think I’m doing something wrong).

For fun, I am going to hit the ball like an impact bag. I've never actually done that. I'd guess it would result in straight, but very short hits, but it might be a good warm up drill. Because truth is, there still seems to be some connection between the top of the backswing, and club head speed, even if I don't want to admit it (makes me think I'm doing something wrong).

’ÄúTry smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

Prot,

I think you’ll see some interesting results doing this. In fact when I feel a little “off”, this is a swing thought I use to get back on track. I don’t use a waist high start point, but during a full swing I approach P3 with the thought that I’m about to move an impact bag, not a golf ball (much like the drill). It seems to help stop any over-acceleration and produces that nice “heavy impact feel”.

I think Lag states somewhere that you can only bring into impact the amount of lag pressure you can handle. A slow start down is key for “any type” of hitting.

Robbo

This thread turned 1 year old today!

Thanks for everyone who fed and nourished it in it's infancy!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Just a note of appreciation for all you have shared here Lag. Its never been less than fascinating for us golf nuts!

Cheers, Arnie

Hitting does require patience at the transition, but this patience becomes much easier when you have 4 canons going off at P3.
It’s easy to drop the club “into the slot” or as Hogan would say
“the free ride down” if you are confident that you have the speed and strength and power down at the bottom. If you know that you don’t have that at the bottom, then it really doesn’t make sense to start down slow right? If you have weak dead hands, and you start down slow, where is the power going to come from? If you think it’s only going to come from the pivot, the pivot will get so far ahead that the club will never catch up, and you’ll be hitting the ball dead right all day long.

If you are going to “hit” properly, you have to learn to release the club.
If you’re loaded up nicely with lots of angles.. you are going to have to get rid of those angles.. meaning you deliver them to P3 then you fire them into impact. Because with hitting, we are stressing the shaft at the bottom, so the hands release the club.. if you are stressing the shaft at the top, (swinging) then you can try to feel that steady even passive hand delivery and hope the CF releases it for you..

Prot,

remember, the bigger the torso rotation and the less the hand travel, the less you have to wait.. even for a hitter… There are different ways to approach transition..

@Robbo, The one thing I think of with what I’m mentioning (Drill ball hitting) is with the drill sometimes I like to see how ‘late in the hitting sequence’ can I wait and make the most violent impact possible. I agree it may be a way of… syncing stuff up?

@Lag,
I can do quite a decent turn still so I am going to try this. Some of this is confusing….

t's easy to drop the club ’Äúinto the slot” or as Hogan would say
’Äúthe free ride down” if you are confident that you have the speed and strength and power down at the bottom. If you know that you don't have that at the bottom, then it really doesn't make sense to start down slow right?

But if you hit 100% acceleration with muscles firing too soon on the way down (even with a short backswing) then the only thing that can happen at this point is deceleration... no?

If you have weak dead hands, and you start down slow, where is the power going to come from? If you think it's only going to come from the pivot, the pivot will get so far ahead that the club will never catch up, and you'll be hitting the ball dead right all day long.

Okay, but which is better? And for what reasons? Slow acceleration- longer drop? Or Fast acceleration, shorter drop?

If there is no difference, then why do hitters take the club back beyond …let’s say chest height? What’s the point? I think there is a point where the drop, even if it’s a “Free RIde” acts to increase delivery speed into the ball.

It would seem to me, any backswing beyond that is playing into 1) a waste of time, and introduces error, or 2) a swinging form.

If you are going to ’Äúhit” properly, you have to learn to release the club.
If you're loaded up nicely with lots of angles.. you are going to have to get rid of those angles.. meaning you deliver them to P3 then you fire them into impact. Because with hitting, we are stressing the shaft at the bottom, so the hands release the club.

What would happen if when your hands are coming down, and reach waist height (think between the legs), they stopped moving forward… almost entirely! For the sake of argument, on the downswing, let’s say the ‘arms’ place the hands just in front of the ball, and STOP. Then the torso, wrists, and forearms unload everything from here. Is that not an “ideal” hit?

I’ve seen old black and white pictures of players like Gary Player. I think it’s called ‘Stop time photography’, where it takes a lot of pictures in a very short time frame, but evenly spaced out. (Man I wish I could find the photo). Anyway, the alarming thing I found with these pictures is the gap in Gary’s hand location gets SMALLER as he gets closer to impact, meaning he is actually slowing his hands at impact!

I can only imagine a hitter is doing this whether conscious or not of it, to transfer power from the arms, to the club.

>

Prot,

remember, the bigger the torso rotation and the less the hand travel, the less you have to wait.. even for a hitter… There are different ways to approach transition..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I started to realize this some months back simply from hitting the bag. It is as if you ‘swing’ the club back, and you ‘swing’ the club through, but once your hands reach waist height, it is like a solid metal clamp compresses my arms into my upper body, and they move together, until the hit….

I am going to fart around with this tonight. I want to see how far I can hit my driver while darn near ‘ending’ hand movement past the ball, until the hit is made.

I apologize if some of this post is confusing. I am experimenting with maybe more than the basics right now. Most of it makes sense, and I’m kind of doing some ‘what if…’ scenarios.

The point I was making is that for any given shot, let’s say a 170 with a five iron.. you are going to need a certain mph to get the ball to go that far, and most will go with the over acceleration version to get it. rather than striking it with an accelerating club, because the reality is, they can’t. However, that golfer will not likely hit the ball consistently well.

As far as the free ride down.. the longer the club, the more you need to feel this.

The more the torso rotates, and the less the hands travel,
the feeling of the transition can be quicker and less waiting.. because the pivot can go fast and the wait is created as the pivot loads into the arms..

The more the arms travel, the longer the feeling of the wait will have to be to keep things in sequence…

As far as hand travel, you are spot on, because the hands do slow down, but the wrists fire hard and rotate so that clubhead doesn’t have to slow down. That’s exactly why we work hard on the bag.

Thanks for updating us on your Us open ‘journey’

I live in the ‘Bush’ downunder, but rest assured I’ll be rooting for ya !!

go persimmon and blades…go LAg :)

I am quite sure that of the 4000 entries this year, I’ll be THE ONLY one teeing off with persimmons! It’s the chance to make history which is exciting… and I’m actually hitting a good stride with my ball striking so that makes it extra fun.. I’ll be using my vintage Hogan Bounce Soles irons, and the new putter I just built.

I was disappointed to learn that the first stage is just a one round crap shoot, It seems that I remember it being a two rounder years ago..
Second stage is a two rounder.

I really don’t think equipment will be an issue at all.. I’m driving the persimmon about 260 maybe even 280 if I really lean into it.

It’s amazing how different a little age and a different perspective can really change how I prepare. When I was on tour years ago, I would be out there for a second practice round today, and probably be hitting 200 balls, and putting and chipping till near dark.. Right now I have not touched a club today nor will I!

I tee off early at 8 am, which is a bit early because that’s usually about the time I wake up in the morning these days.. and I have over an hour to drive to get there so I will be getting up at 5 am.. morning stiffness is always been a nemesis for me, so I’m just going to make sure I get to the course an hour before, just to walk around, stretch a bit, and roll a few putts to get a feel for the speed..

I will not be using yardages.. just sighting and feeling the shot with pure intuition and feel. I find golf to be more fun and interesting that way..

I’ll be carrying a 9 degree driver, two wood, and a five wood in case I end up in the rough. I’m dropping my 1 iron, and carrying 2 – 9..
I have two wedges.. my 48 degree split sole, and a 56 degree sand wedge.

The course is wickedly tough, every bit as severe as any USGA event I have ever played… it’s like walking through a mine field.
Extreme danger on every shot. Super fast hard greens and huge
drop offs around the greens, high rough, pretty crazy stuff.. not the kind of golf I have been playing.. but if I hit lots of fairways and greens, all that stuff doesn’t matter much. It will weed out the weak
ball strikers.. it will be interesting to see if some of the young players can get up and down all day out there.. I really doubt it.

Here’s what the persimmon kid will be up against tomorrow!
It’s a whole round full of this stuff.. !

Good luck Lag.

You weren’t lying about the course being ummmm…. challenging. I can see why you have to hit it high and accurately. Luck LAG, luck….

dcee

been searching but can’t find a link for the qualifying. We’ll have to wait to hear from the man himself!

Good luck John, sustain the lag!

It looks gorgeous Lag.

What is the loft of your 2 wood?

I’m curious… one thing I learned about hitting Hogan PC’s is you need a darn tight swing to help with the lack of bounce. What kind of bounce is on your sand wedge?

Are you going to be using those balls you won/used at that “classic” tournament? :)

Anyway, as I said to you already, best of luck. Show those young whipper snappers what a fairway looks like.

That Grout story is disputed……

http://stevewozeniak.spaces…210.entry

Can't get it link right – check out the April 2008 entry in the blog (link on left hand side).

Wouldn't be like Jack Nicklaus to not quite make sense in an interview!

Found that book Beez..
Let me teach you golf as I taught Jack Nicklaus- Jack Grout

“I believe that keeping the head still is one of the most difficult things a golfer has to learn to do. Certainly was for me.. When nothing else would work Jack Grout would have his assistant Larry Glosser stand in front of me and grab my hair while I hit shots. My scalp still tingles at the thought of those sessions. I cried tears of pain many a time…................”

So Beez….if Jack quoted that and it was printed in Jack Grout’s very own book…I would have to believe it happened otherwise Grout would have edited it out and classified it as BS
Stories change over the years but that book was written in 1975 so I have to think it was true and our blogger stevewozenik isn’t on the ball with his source on that one

Jack says that in his My Way old video.

Thoughts on US OPEN qualifying.. (72 qualified)

Fairways 10/13
Greens 11/18
Three putts 0

I drove the ball very well today. Over drew my opening tee shot into 4 inch rough. Tried to hook a shot into the green but couldn’t turn it enough and ended in a hazard. A double bogey start.

I refused to let it shake me, and just started hitting fairways and greens. Hit the next 6 greens and fairways, with great shots into the three pars, including a 3 iron to 2 feet, for the only birdie of the day.

I was back to one over going into 8, playing very solid good golf.
On 8 I hit a very nice drive down the left side to open the shot to the pin, but the ball trickled about a foot into 4 inch rough. Couldn’t reach… bogey.

Sorry Mr Nicklaus but the 9th is a stupid hole. A par 5 that unless you drive it 310, you have to lay up short of three big oak trees that you have to be far enough back of to get over with a short iron.
I hit a perfect drive, and perfect layup leaving me about 135 yards.
I have a blind shot from the center of the fairway with a 9 iron. I did
take an exact yardage here. I hit a soft shot right at the pin… all over it actually, can’t see it.. I get to the green and fix a ball mark 6 feet short of the pin, my ball over the green, down a 20 yard embankment in a pile of 6 inch rough. I was LUCKY to make 6!

On 10, I split a very tight fairway with a driver and have 120 left.
Hit a nice wedge left of the pin.. which is tight to the right against a hazard, and my ball strikes a branch on an overhanging oak tree,
and drops to a death. Double.

11 I hit 3 iron stiff but make par.

12 I hit driver- 3 iron on the green for par.
13 I hit 2 iron off the tee, and 4 iron on the green for par.

14 I’ll let Mr Nicklaus off the hook here, but the greens keeper should have his head checked.

This par three is 160. The greenskeeper has shaved the grass short of the green and If you are 1 yard short of the green, the ball will roll back all the way down the hill leaving you a 60 yard wedge straight up the hill to a firm green. If you don’t make it up the hill,
you will replay the shot from your feet. (had this happen in practice round) Now, I am fine with this, as the pin was cut right in the front of the green. This is what I call a sucker pin. There is a tier right behind the pin going up to the second level.. I pull 6 iron to make sure I get past the pin, and the tier, because if I even land past the pin on the tier, I might end up pulling it back down the hill.
I hit it just left of the pin, lands in the first third of the second tier and bounces like it hit concrete into a bunker over the green. I make a great 4 from there holing a 10 foot putt. If they are going to shave the front slope short, and offer a sucker pin, they need to keep the top tier soft enough to hold a teed up 6 or 7 iron shot. This is just stupid BS golf.

15 is another stupid 5 par, that you hit driver, then a 7 iron layup..which leaves you a downhill hanging lie to an shallow hard, elevated green for your third with a wedge. There is no risk and reward even if you can reach the green because the green is too shallow and small to accept a shot from a downhill lie.. Just a dumb hole. I make a nice par nevertheless.

16 is a short 4 par. I hit 2 iron that leaves me 80 yards out over water. I walked up to the green to have a look and picked a landing spot 40 feet short and slightly right of the pin. Nipped it real nice, and it hits and rolls over the green down a 20 yard steep shaved slope into a funnel of rough. This time I’m in someone’s big gouged divot.
Remember there is a lake just past the pin coming back, I can’t even go sideways because of the shaved slope. I make a 20 footer for six.

17 is a 200 yard 3 par, I hit 4 iron 20 feet… just miss the birdie.

18 is another awkward 5 par. It’s 560, dogleg right that if you drive it tight down the right side, you might have 240 over water to a reasonable green. Rather than put a bunker left, with water right,
Nicklaus puts a bunker out there about 260 just short of the water.
I just nail a drive down the right side looks just perfect, and it hits some bump in the fairway, and kicks me into the bunker. I have to wedge it out. Had to hit it very flush to get it over the huge lip.
Now I have 180 to the front edge. Slight tail wind, pull a 5 iron, probably the most flush feeling iron I hit all day, just covering the pin, but lands on the bank short of the green, and rolls back into the water. I think the wind must have changed direction because it was the right club, and hit really well.

Now with all that said.. I think Pete Dye, and Nicklaus, and many of the other modern course designers fail over and over to take into consideration future course conditions. I don’t mind hard fast greens
as long as I have a run up option. I don’t even mind “drop it in from the sky” if the green will hold a properly struck shot from a nice fairway lie…but these architects also fail to consider how these holes will play in high winds.. some of these holes can literally be impossible in those conditions.

I suppose these kind of courses started in the early 80’s… TPC courses and so forth here in America. If you like these kind of courses, good for you.. not for me.

My goal for the event was to hit 14 greens, which I should have hit
if not for these three ridiculous short iron bounce overs.

I had no three putts, but only made one birdie.

In closing this nightmare,

I easily could have qualified. If my drive stays in the fairway on 8.. I make par. I could have just as easily made birdie on 9 and turned even par. If I don’t hit an oak tree branch with the wedge on 10… I’m right there still. The bounce over on 14 should not have happened,
and I could just as well have been even going down 16. Sand wedge is usually a birdie putt for me especially when I strike it perfectly, and if I am in the hunt going into 18, I’m not making triple. I hit iron off the tee… play left, exactly like I did in Vegas last year, play safe, and hit wedge into 18.. two putt and I’m in or in a playoff.

I really didn’t feel held back by persimmon and 1960’s gear. It can be done.
I don’t blame any of the 10 guys that withdrew today… and I know why they did.

Regardless of all the what if’s and such, there were 40 guys out there that couldn’t beat a guy hitting a persimmon driver, and a set pf 1968 Hogan Bounce sole irons!

Nice try Lag,
Although it does show that they have set it up for the bombers hitting it over 300 (oh yeah, and masochists!).
You said you weren’t disadvantaged in any way by using the Hogan’s, so would you have been hitting the same numbers into greens if you were using a current model?

Hard luck Lag – and well done for giving it a shot.

10 and 16 look like the real killers.

Next year…...

What about giving the (British) Open qualifying a go?

Might suit your style a bit more.

Hard luck Lag. Tough job when you are fighting from the outset.

Thanks for sharing the experience with us Lag. I’m sure some of it (if not most of it) isn’t easy to do so.

You played a practice round or two there, correct? In those rounds they kept the pins in easy placement? I mean how can anyone score on a sucker pin with a false front and shaved greens? What is the correct play for that hole?

What kind of player do you think won? Lucky? Bomber? Short game guru?

I’m personally glad you gave it a shot. It’s really too bad it’s a one day shot. I mean I understand why it is that way, but still, it’d be nice to get into a groove, and stress test the winner for more than one day.

Good on you for doing it Lag.

I tip my cap to you anyway no matter what you shot. What was your best and worst reaction from others seeing the equipment you were using and having no idea of who you are? Did the bag boy say, ’ÄúDude, this isn't Bushwood; this is The US Open”

I just don’t think luck had anything to do with it.. I have a right to be able to hold the green with a full wedge shot or a short iron! LOL!

Most of the golf I have played.. (except for the TRGA event I won in Las Vegas last Nov) have been on slower bumpy greens.. even the old Sahara CC in Vegas held a good golf shot, even though I thought they were firm and very fast greens.

I chatted a bit with Styles this morning, and he send me a link to some groove sharpening tool.. that gets the club just gripping the ball apparently..

I didn’t think I needed to be worrying about the grooves from the middle of the fairway… the best solution for me to do well with old
style V grooves is just to hit all the fairways. I really feel if I need to get a shot in the fairway, I can do it.. I’ll hit 2 iron off the tee if I need to..

I personally have never had any interest in spinning the ball back..
I like it to hit, and release 10 feet.. 20 at most.. and if it holds where it landed that is fine too..

In my head it’s like being able to block out one side of the fairway or the other.. If left is not an option, I can aim down the left side, and I have the whole fairway to work the ball into, not half..

If I think of spinning the ball, I don’t want both options.. I don’t want to have to think hmmm this could either release or spin back…
So I always like to think of some release on the ball..

The crazy thing is.. it’s usually the long irons that people can’t hold on the greens.. I mean I don’t carry a hybrid.. I hit 3 iron into 3 greens, 4 iron into two greens, hit 5 iron twice… hit the green every time.. no problems.. it was the short irons I couldn’t get to stop on the greens.. a bit ironic actually..

Nicklaus uses bigger greens for the long and medium par 4’s.
He uses small shallow tricky greens for the 5 pars and the short 4 pars..and short par 3’s… I mean that is all good, and it follows nice logic… but those holes need to be properly maintained.. I don’t even feel I need one side to bail out on.. but If a properly struck wedge or short iron shot can’t hold the green at all.. just bounces or slopes off into an abyss.. what is the point of that? It’s absurd..
that’s what killed me..

I know it sounds absurd to say an 83 was almost a 72… but to me it was..

I say this because 72 was my target score, but don’t think that after being out there on this course for a couple hours, it didn’t cross my mind that the qualifying # could be much higher.. what if big winds came up for the guys later? What if others couldn’t hold the greens?

Being one over after 7 I was right in it.. the bogey on 8 was a bad break but no big deal, that’s golf.. I expect a few of those a round.

It’s the shot on 9.. 135 with a 9 iron, landing it 10 feet short of the pin
and making 6. That should not have happened. I hit a nice wedge into 10 that hits a tree branch and I make 6.. that should not of happened, yet alone, why am I having to worry about a tree branch from dead center fairway?

I make two putt pars on the next two with 3 and 4 iron approaches. Those are the tough holes.. A six iron to a par three should be a par, because I played smart away from the sucker pin.

So I think this.. if I take bogey on 8.. par on 9 and 10 and 11- 13, I think with the iron I hit into 14 should be good for a par too.. if the ball just holds on the green.. I’d be two over with 4 to play and I have two five pars and a short par 4.. I mean I would be looking really good.. the only tough hole should be a 3 iron par three #17
and that hole ends up being my best birdie chance from 20 feet.

I did miss my birdie on the par 5 15th, and If I was still two over,
I have 80 yards to a pin with a sand wedge in my hand.. I mean the whole round could have come down to that shot.. and if I stick it as I should have, and not had it bounce over the green into the devils pulpit, I should be looking at a 3, not a triple..

If I’m one over I play for par on 18.. and if I’m two over I play down the right side and gamble with the driver.. I mean who cares if I shoot 76 or 86.. this isn’t the first day of a 4 rounder.. it’s a do or die deal..

A lot of what if’s here.. but this whole this has been one big WHAT IF?

Can this guy qualify with antique golf clubs? That’s a big WHAT IF?
I’ll tell you right now.. it was not that big of a what if…

I really don’t think it’s much of a pipe dream that I shoot 73 out there with persimmons and a set of worn out Hogan Bounce Soles. I was putting good too.. It really could have happened… and it’s not just
a crazy guy … all I can say is that if there are any persimmon purists out there.. I really believe you can win against the modern gear if the course is set up so you can hold the golf ball.. that was the issue… not the driver, not the putter.. and that is really what has shocked me about this whole endeavor..

Looking back, if I had just one club, like a nine iron with razor grooves, milled face, I could make that club work to hold the green from 80 yards to 150 if needed.. that is all it would take..

The kid I played with that swung out of his shoes on every shot..
I would not have traded driving rounds.. even though he was
40 to 60 yards by me … because he was in trouble.. and I can see
how his driver could let him down under pressure.. there was no shape, he was just aiming center, swing and spray, or pray. He missed both ways without shape.

I think the good of this is that I can now see that it is possible to take down the new gear with the old straight up.. no problem on a proper golf course. I found renewed confidence in my putting.. the teeth on my putter worked great on the super slicks.. great promise there.
I’m feeling great control of my driver after struggling a bit with it over the last couple months since the 8 degree flat re-bore I did to it.
and I feel that even playing the old stuff, I have enough game to qualify for the US Open even though I didn’t.. I can see it’s there..
even being a once a week golfer who doesn’t practice.. kind of a good feeling.. and as far as Nicklaus.. I wish he would have stayed with playing rather than designing golf courses! Or just teaching,
“Golf Jack’s Way”

Interesting insight lag.

Oddly enough, I own that groove tool (or possibly one just like it), and have used the “V” groove portion on my Ben Hogan PC’s. I used the “U” groove part to keep my wedges sharp.

I play on a course that hosts lots of tournies and the stimp is never under 10-11. I just feel that yea, I’m good with lesser grooves in long irons, I’m simply not good enough. But anything 8 iron and down I want to be able to stop on a dime. I also know the course well enough to know I need to be on a ledge… that I’d rather not… roll over, but rather chuck a dart at.

Anyway, the tool works, and doesn’t make your club illegal.

+edit+
Ah forgot to add the ball factor. Grooves are great, but if you were still playing that Srixon feel ball, that ball is tested (reliably) to give somewhere around 8K spin on wedge shots… it falls in the lower 10 percent or so for spin.

But for all I know you went with something high spin. I just thought of it as another factor because I know you had a bunch of them.

I hit the Srixon ball.. so that is probably an issue..

I mean I never once even considered that I wouldn’t be able to hold the greens…

I thought I might putt really bad.. or have an off day with the driver and be in the rough all day, or even think, “what the hell am I doing in this shark tank?”

But in spite of it all, I think it really gave me a boost, because I putted really solid.. and I drove it really well, and my iron play was very good.
and I can see that I if I play half decent, I’m still going to beat most of the guys out there..

I mean that’s still beating a lot of guys who have all the latest and greatest stuff.. as it is I beat 40 guys out there..

as bad as I scored, given 5 over on the last three,
and believe me, if I had to par them I could have.. I could have played way right on 16 and made par, but I did want to give myself a birdie run from 80 yards with a sand iron in my hand. On 18 if I hit 2 iron off the tee and go left on my second it’s a cakewalk for a par. so 78 puts me in a tie for 25th..

If my ball just holds the greens with three of those shots, I shave off
at least 4 more shots, maybe 5 if I convert one to a birdie..that puts me at 74… and if my ball doesn’t hit the tree on a wedge shot into #10 take two more off or maybe 3 because that should have been a 10 or 15 foot birdie putt.. and now I’m almost winning the thing..
I mean it was really that close..

It’s not like I’m asking for a swing back.. I’m just asking for my ball to hold the green with a short iron.. and for a wedge to not clip a tree branch from the middle of the fairway… it’s not crazy stuff.. I could have made it even with the old gear, just as easily as not…

I’ll post my score no matter what I shoot.. 83 or 93 103.. or 63..
I think the key to shooting low is not fearing shooting high.. if fear
is in the picture, it works on you both ways… good or bad…

I’ll never fear a golf score..

Lag, you say that PGA courses are set up for driving/pitching/putting contests. The course you just played sounds completely different, and not just because you were shorter off the tee than others using 460cc drivers. Why don’t they use this course or others like it to sort out the best golfers on the planet?

Whitednj,

This course was set up exactly like a USGA major in the 1980’s.. so scores would be like those of that time.. given playing persimmons.

They are trying to put a mid iron in the tour guys hands once in a while so to do that, they have to make the courses 7400 or longer.

I suppose the firmness of the greens was not an issue for everyone, as most are using milled faces, and groove sharpening tools, and probably a higher spin ball than what I used. I had no idea I wouldn’t be able to hold a green with a short iron.. least of my worries..
and that is what broke me… not the length of the course..
I needed to play the short par 4’s 1 under not 4 over.. and par fives, I needed to play 1 under not 4 over.. so that’s my ten shot swing.. I never hit a bad shot on any of those holes, not even slightly off.. perfect shots.. I wouldn’t do a thing different.. I had nothing to do with it.. The ball and the grooves.. that’s what it came down to..

Getting back to the PGA Tour.. fans love the long ball..
but in the old days, there were long drive contests for that.. so
go figure.. it’s a different vibe..

I know I sound like a broken record but I actually like hitting long irons into holes.. I hit 3/4/5 iron seven times and never missed a green. I played those 7 approaches or holes 1 under par… that’s
supposed to be the tough stuff.. and that is exactly WHY I went to
US OPEN Q… I have a good golf swing, and can play the tough shots. On a 6800 yard course, what I did was typical with old gear.
If you can hit 8 out of 10 fairways, and not have a three putt for the week, you might find yourself in the hunt at the US Open on Sunday in pre 1990.

The game of course has changed, and from my observations now,
I think the old game is much more interesting.. unless you like 350 yard drives.. then it’s a bore I suppose..

Mayacama was a huge and expensive undertaking to make this course, why make it obsolete within a few years? The PGA tour would not play it at 6800 yards…

Nearly every great course of the past is now an aging relic that will drift into the memories of glazed eyes and cataracts.. I always thought well kept old things were cool..

then again…..

Still it was a Good Show, Lag

Kudos and standing applause from me

Golf is a Damn Funny Game.

If you had hit driver all day , it just means that you are hitting a modern day 3 or 4 -wood …...distance wise, not bad strategy actually from the sound of things on this course

Lag

Is the the course you played? http://www.mayacama.com/gol...

Qualifiers found here. http://usga.usopen.com/2009...

72 (par?) qualifies.

Do all the qualifiers get a start or is there a 2nd round to narrow them down further?

Lag

Is the the course you played? http://www.mayacama.com/gol…

Qualifiers found here. http://usga.usopen.com/2009…

72 (par?) qualifies.

Do all the qualifiers get a start or is there a 2nd round to narrow them down further?

If you get through local qualifying you then go to sectional qualifying in a couple of week which is 36 holes. Get through that and your at Bethpage Black!

I looked at the stats last night – average score was 82.01 by my calcs!

My second stage (would have been) at Saticoy CC down south..
That is a tight ball strikers course I have won tournaments on before, so I felt my chances would be very good down there at second stage because I know the golf course well. I picked Mayacama for two reasons.. close to home, and heard it was a good ball strikers course, and tough, so it wouldn’t be a big putting contest. I didn’t know it was a Nicklaus course or I would not have gone there.

I suppose the reason I am not a big fan of Nicklaus designs or Pete Dye is that if the courses are not properly maintained, such as letting the greens dry out too much or high winds, these courses can just be silly if not unplayable.

I am completely against courses that severely penalize properly struck golf shots. In my case I make 3 doubles and a triple with only one bad swing (my drive off the first tee) So that’s 9 over right there. Rub of the green, a bad kick here or there, you make a bogey, big deal.

I am a very straight hitter of a golf ball, and am just not the kind of player who should be going out making a fist full of doubles and triples especially on a good ball striking day. The long wild hitters should be making those big numbers.

This is exactly why I passed on the American Tour and went to play in Australia and even Canada. I like lay of the land golf courses where you play across the terrain, not someones vision of fantasy golf 101. I’ll stay home and play the playstation version. I really believe that a great golf course will stand up and still be a fair test in any conditions of wind, rain, dried out greens or whatever mother nature throws your way.. as long as some part of the green is accessible with a ground play.. In the case of a shot over a canyon or water, the 16th at Cypress Point is a great example.. Alister MacKenzie knew that the severe winds coming off the sea could offer up an unplayable situation, so he made an open landing area
off to the left of the green that you can play to.. it’s a simple 4 from there with still a chance at a 3 with a good up and down. I think that is a good golf hole.. you have the risk and reward element if you take out a 3 wood or driver and go at the green over the ocean and try for a 2 or 3.

The great thing about the old style golf the way I see it.. is that it allowed the short hitter to compete with the long hitter.. and a ground game player could also be in the game against a high ball hitter…because there are several paths to the green. A strategically placed bunker short of the green on one side or the other still allows the ground game guy to roll one up.. and if he plays his drive into the correct side of the fairway, and even has a golf ball (heaven forbid) that he can curve, might even be able to work a low shot in close running it in there.. then Jack on the other hand can drop it in from the air.. two ways.. both can work.. that is a better design. More options means more interesting.

To each their own..

Beez, What about giving the (British) Open qualifying a go?

I think it would be fun to travel around and try to qualify for all the world’s majors with persimmon and blades.. given several opportunities, I am more than convinced I would sneak into a few..
At least now I have a much clearer picture as to what I am up against, and it’s not as bad as I thought.. it’s amazing how well you can play golf from fairways and greens. Of course I would need a sponsor who thinks that idea is as cool as I do! Not sure anyone does, but I can tell you, it’s absolutely possible, if not me, someone else who played the old game could do it given a few chances I’m convinced.

Golfur66
You said you weren't disadvantaged in any way by using the Hogan's, so would you have been hitting the same numbers into greens if you were using a current model?

What I was saying is that, after I set a scoring goal for myself after learning what typically makes it there, looking at the golf course in the practice round, and then matching my current game to a strategic approach, I didn’t feel disadvantaged at all to reach my target score of 72. Other than my drive off the first tee, I never made a bad enough swing to at anytime hit the ball into trouble.
I refuse to blame my ball striking when the shot hits 10 feet short of the pin with a 9 iron and bounces over the green, or with a sandwedge, or hitting a tree limb. My goal was to make 4 birdies to allow for an occasional mishap… I made just one, but remember, the short holes that I should have had those putts where the ones that gave me the problems with the bounce overs..

Now as far as going out there with modern gear, I’m not convinced I can hit a lightweight driver as straight.. longer yes, of course, but am I willing to give up my choice of which side of the fairway I am going down? not sure that I want to do that.. remember, 99% of the golf I play during a year is on very tight tree lined classic style golf courses with small greens… real ball strikers courses.. that’s what I like..
In the Bay Area, Mare, Presidio, Lincoln Par, are my favorites, Olympic Club, and the SF Golf Club, Pasa Tiempo, and I of course would enjoy anything down on the Monterery Peninsula (Pebble, Cypress Point, Spyglass Hill) all of which are great classic layouts.
So the golf courses or modern era courses are a different game than what I prefer, although I don’t mind the occasional challenge, but not on a daily basis.

Prot
What is the loft of your 2 wood?
Are you going to be using those balls you won/used at that ’Äúclassic” tournament?

13 degrees… I uses a Srixon ball, probably to my detriment.. Sorry Srixon.. I think I saw an add for that ball here on the right.. make a better ball you guys!

Mashie
What was your best and worst reaction from others seeing the equipment you were using and having no idea of who you are? Did the bag boy say, ’ÄúDude, this isn't Bushwood; this is The US Open”

I have to admit, when I pulled of the my head cover on the first tee
and pulled a persimmon from my bag, EVERYONE took a second look.. the officials asked me.. is that a persimmon? and I said yes..
are these things still legal? The look on their faces was really priceless.. made it worth it.. I wish I would have hit a better drive off #1 though.. my only regret..

Kyc
If you had hit driver all day , it just means that you are hitting a modern day 3 or 4 -wood ……distance wise, not bad strategy actually from the sound of things on this course

Like I have said before.. My opponent every time I play is the imprint of the golf course architect.. the greens keeper’s pins, and how he sets up the course, and third, is mother nature, and what comes from that.. I refuse to compete against myself.. my conscious mind and subconscious mind are on the same page, we both are there to compete the best we can that day. In the case of a qualifying, I set a target score, and play the course with a game plan and very specific objectives..The goal in a qualifying is to qualify, not to shoot 76 or make a respectable showing.. you’ll often see very high numbers posted on the back nine in qualifyings because of the “go for broke” element, especially on a tough setup.. If you have to take a big gamble to have a chance, one would be foolish not to take it at some point.. it’s a totally different vibe out there than the first round of a 3 or 4 day event.

Anyway, I’ll sign off now about the US Open, and my attempt at a historic entry into Bethpage.. I think I’ll give it another go next year!

In the meantime, I’ll probably play two more events this year, the TRGA Los Angeles Open at the historic Rancho Park later this summer, and then defend my title down in Vegas in November.

Back to the golf swing…

Of course I would need a sponsor who thinks that idea is as cool as I do! Not sure anyone does, but I can tell you, it's absolutely possible, if not me, someone else who played the old game could do it given a few chances I'm convinced.

Well if you were prepared to play a currently sold persimmon, the manufacturers would be crazy not to take the chance of at least subsidising somewhat. It’s a headline waiting to happen.

I still am not convinced in anyway that hitting a persimmon driver is a disadvantage on a proper golf course. And I say proper golf course meaning that there should be a PREMIUM on driving accuracy. And a golfer who is a good striker of a golf ball should be challenged with all the irons in the bag throughout a round including having to hit several long irons or even fairway woods into par 4s in a given round of golf on a championship golf course. That is why it is called a championship golf course. Champions must be required to show their talents right through the bag, and if they can’t hit long irons, then they sure better be extra exceptional at some other part of their game.

Show me a good long iron player, and I’ll show you a good golf swing.
The long irons are the benchmark of the golf swing.

Trying to dumb the game down so golfers aren’t required to show their abilities in hitting long irons makes golf less of a game.

In the US Open Q.. I hit 11 greens, missing 3 because they wouldn’t hold with short irons.. but nonetheless.. 11 greens.
The college kid I played with was driving the ball at times 50 yards past me, yet he only hit 10 greens. He made several very poor golf swings, hitting shots way off line with both his driver and irons. He was missing greens right and left. His golf swing is seriously flawed and he was clearly using stack and tilt method. In spite of my mis fortunes I still beat him on the front nine, and was 4 up on him after 7 holes, yet I never once drove past him. I’m likely more accurate with a 3 iron than he is with a 7 iron. I was 7 for 7 hitting greens with 3, 4, and 5 irons.

My point here is.. golf is and should be a game of accuracy first and foremost… and I believe that the classic equipment teaches you a better golf swing over time… and that better golf swing can beat the guys using the new stuff who don’t have as good of a golf swing.

In my failed attempt, even with a double on the first hole, I was either tied or beating 4 of the guys who shot 72 after 7 holes.. and if my shots hold the green on 9 and 10, I going into 14, even with one of the guys who made it, and only one shot back of three of the guys who shot 72. It was really that simple. It can be done, no doubt about it. Knowing what I know now, I’m not the least bit intimidated playing against a guy using modern gear on the right kind of golf course.. A 7400 yard wide open course, obviously I would be at a huge disadvantage… but a course where accuracy is a premium, not at all.

Given this idea continues to interest me, I think I’ll make my point beating the new gear and winning an event with the old gear. I’m just not sure I’m quite as “in love” with competition as I was years ago. A persimmon round with a good player or someone like Al Barkow is more exciting to me at this point.

Hi Lag,

Just wondered if you could help me out with a couple of clarifications regarding flexing the shaft and shaft flex. Sorry if this sounds a bit dumb but is it actually easier to “apply and maintain” pressure to a regular shaft than say an extra stiff shaft?

Obviously we can see that the shaft has been flexed more easily with a regular/junior shaft (as your previous photo’s without a ball show) but that doesn’t mean more pressure is being applied does it? Its just that its easier to see the manifestation of that pressure. Similarly in terms of the maintenance of shaft flex is it more difficult to maintain pressure the stiffer the shaft? Even if it is the case that stressing and maintaining stress on a regular shaft is easier than with an XS shaft, the quid pro quo is presumably if you lose that stress pre-impact the consequences are worse with a regular shaft than with a XS shaft because of the potential extra distortion.

Can you also provide any guidance on the impact that shaft flex has on ball position and low point for the hitter? With your really old sets with regular shafts do you make any changes to your set up?

Cheers, Arnie

When we apply pressure to a shaft, that pressure is essentially the same whether it is an x shaft or a ladies regular.. That pressure is what we need as golfers, because that pressure is our feel. The more stored pressure we have in the shaft, the less the golf ball has any say in what is going to happen to it.

It is more difficult to visually see the flex in the shaft, if that shaft is stiffer than looser.

It’s a tricky thing, because as soon as acceleration reaches zero, the shaft starts to unflex. Full extension of the shaft takes longer with the looser shaft, so it could appear that the looser shaft is holding flex longer than a stiff one given the same moment of zero acceleration that would trigger the release of the pressure.

However, once pressure is lost, it is lost.. and impossible to regain in a golf swing… so don’t be fooled thinking that the looser shaft is offering some kind of forgiveness.

The lowpoint in a super flexed shaft is certainly more forward and slightly left.. I can certainly feel the difference. The looser shaft is more open just prior to impact if flex is being held, but it is also MORE CLOSED if you don’t..

As a hitter, I find little difference in the distance I hit my shots between regular and x shafts.. but there is a trajectory difference.
The stiffer shafts do hit the ball higher..

Now if you are a swinger, all this is different.. and looser shafts may very well throw the ball up, because most people bring into impact a fully released shaft or an over released cupped shaft.. which would increase loft.. and most golfers play golf this way.. and just start piling on the compensations.

The bottom line is.. if you are a hitter, you should probably favor stiffer shafts.. but the good news is if you are hitting, shaft flex is not much of an issue, not nearly as much as it is for swingers..

For swingers, shaft flex is extremely critical because you are trying to “time” the release of the shaft into an inline situation, and that is tough stuff..

Great posts there Arnie and Lag,
I have a question/observation based on this topic.
Lag, you know I’ve been having tremendous hooking problems with my driver over the last few months. I have tried many things to remedy this, including waiting longer.
Lag, you have said that because of the longer shaft of a driver, more wait time is required before “hitting” through the ball.
I have had a strange observation in the last week with the irons and driver.
I have finally seemed to fix my problem, but it was through trying to hit the ball earlier, not later, with my driver. I’m back to smashing it with a slight draw.
With the irons, I try to hit it later in the downswing than the driver.
I don’t quite fully understand this result, but it seems to be that because if the longer shaft of the driver and the earlier hit, I am forcing the club to load for a longer time prior to impact. The converse seems to be true as I hit the irons, so that I feel the “free ride” for longer prior to the hit impulse.
Does this make sense to you?

That does make sense, because by you feeling an earlier hit with your driver, you are likely pressuring the shaft with the hands.. and while you have been working towards moving your release point farther down the swing arc toward the ball, your hand speed is still not up to the strength it needs to be to fire hard from a later and deeper P3 4:30 position. If the strength and speed are not there, then the clubhead takes over, shaft flex is lost, and the ball goes left more often than not.

Your release needs to be in direct correlation to what you are currently capable of.. so as things improve, you’ll be moving this all down the arc of the club path over time..

In the meantime, you can get back to playing some good golf and I am quite sure you will be striking the ball with much better compression and feel than you were before all the hard work.

Sometimes you just have to tremble in amazement…

I took a video tonight, hitting a couple shots off the back deck, and when I reviewed the tape, there was a swing on there that was astounding really. I took a couple stills of it..

I’ll have the video of it up soon..

Entire religions have probably been based upon lesser things!

If you look closely, you can just make out the ball traveling on the golden sunbeam just slightly below my right shoulder, and there also seems to be a holographic image of the ball as if it’s still at impact in the last finish frame…

quite mysterious..

If I don’t have the hand strength, why am I hitting the ball long distances with my driver and rescue woods?
Is it due to the speed of my arms and pivot?
How can I determine if the strength in my hands is found wanting?
I feel like my forearm and hand strength is more than sufficient to perform the swing, but it feels ‘right’ to hit it where I am.

Beware about the term ‘hand strength’. Its how fast they can roll through the impact zone still with a FLW and a Flying Wedge in place that counts here. Think punch or slap. Which has more biff.

You fire the right forearm with a still bent right wrist.

Lag have you run across Dr Jack Kurkendal (and I know that is not the right spelling) as he is only guy I know who teaches a flattening right wrist through impact?

Kuykendall, Professor of Physics,

He taught me Lag Pressure through his writings and video. Homer introduced me to the concept but Jack hammered it into my thick head.

I was lucky enough to work with Jack when he was here in Australia, very clever guy and a true gentleman… Right hand release delivers 85% of clubhead speed… Of course the right hand grip is crucial to achieving this, we met accidently when he saw the grip I use… He is a true marvel to talk to!

If we could combine his mechanics knowledge with Bio’s body motion findings, WOW what a product you would get!!

I can truly say that Bio has the secret to golf and then some! Since he has hammered it through my thick scone 2 weeks ago my impact power has tripled in 4 training sessions – NOT 1 ball hit yet!

The optimal golf swing is light years away from what we have been taught!

It is a tough pill to swallow but once you free yourself from what you thought you knew, wow it tastes good!!

Nice pic Lag….

Can’t help but notice your iron face looks ever so slightly closed at the top (1 or 2 degrees). Is this normal for you?

That is a really cool pic though, you should put it on your site.

Cool pics Lag….. ball going right down the sunbeam with the balls position still showing on the boards at impact- afterburners are on

Left sunbeam may well be the 4.30 line …...and you have the golden ticket my friend to lead us forward down the right path to golfing freedom !!!! (or something like that)

Amazing how timing is everything…with a camera and with a club

Styles, Beez and I are going to do a UK & Eire version where you can just about make the ball out against the black clouds….....

Guru,

Jimmy Ballard teaches with a “Perfect Practice Glove” for the right hand which has a straight plate on the back side of the glove to keep the right wrist more or less straight throughout the swing. It is similar to a base stealer’s sliding glove used in baseball

The flattening right wrist through impact is not compatible with a swingers full roll release and dead hands with the arms flying off the body.. absolute nightmare…

However, with a cut it left angled hinge, strong hands, a cocked and turned hand position at P3 4:30, it’s exactly what you would want to feel, but this is more advanced stuff, and not to be tried without proper guidance and supervision.

Kind of like lighting yourself on fire in one of those insulated body suits.. don’t try this at home!

But I am sure I would agree with Kuykendall, it’s a much better way to hit a golf ball if done properly.

Mashie,

I can’t imaging keeping a flat right wrist on the downswing.. can’t even imagine that working at all.. The wrist need to be cocked and loaded at P3.. so that then those angles can be quickly unloaded by a rapid firing of the hands down near the bottom..

There must be more to it..

Guru’s description is spot on for a swinger’s protocol.. it’s all about
how fast the hands turn over a FLW is you are using an automatic CF release…

But the hitter’s 2M3 pivot driven release into an angled hinge is a completely different protocol.

Kuykendall is a hitter, both triceps active (folds both arms in the backstroke to Top, no extensor action, no wristcock), about 75% right triceps, no pivot power, palm right hand grip, big Roll Transfer accumulator power, very little wrist cock if any at all, horizontal hinging. In his video I see no evidence of flattening right wrist. At the Top he says address hands angles maintained, at least. Not flattening the right wrist through impact unless what I’m looking at has been superseded.

It’s all right triceps, right forearm, followed by both forearm swivel into impact from P3, roll power increasing clubhead speed 50%, he says.
85% arms, 15% body which is incidental to facilitate arms’ action, almost no advantage in weight of player.
Right shoulder back and down plane, causing about a 6” lateral shift but no rotational force. Impact is relatively squared away, feet flat, weight fairly well balanced. No lower “spin out”.
Body is all reaction, not action.

He says some other interesting things. The right shoulder moves about 45 degrees but the left shoulder moves about 90. They can move independently a certain amount. No tension in the torso. First move is a “sit down of about 2 inches, which puts it on plane”.
Looks to me like a coordinated lateral bump with a down plane shoulder drop, followed by a straightening of both elbows.
“It must have a feel of an underhanded tossing motion.”

The biggest surprise for me was that both arms fold close to the body in the backstroke and no wrist cock.

Lot of hitting in that action indeed. The ‘underarm toss’ is a forearm driven thing with the right wrist not actively fired at the ball – it gets pulled out straight in the follow through in what could be seen as a steering effort. Ball is gone by then but those who learn this method need to keep their Flying Wedge in tact form P3 to just post impact.

Anyway thought I would ‘toss’ that idea into the Hitters thread:)

Lag,

I don't disagree with you about the wrist action being cocked and loaded @ P3. But it is indeed true to keep the right wrist nearly flat in the Ballard method. One drill is to just simply extend your right trigger finger down the side of the grip before you swing and keep it there the whole time. I agree it's probably hard to imagine but it really works great if you plan to play Jimmy's way. Don't want to side track your thread but would be happy to chat/e-mail more about it off line if interested.

Mashie fire it up as a new thread in here. There are a few who have done the Ballard in their swing searches.

Ballard must have changed his method.or ideas… Curtis Strange , Hal Sutton and Parnevik and others he associates his name with certainly don’t and never have had a flat right wrist
Has he changed his ideas? or is that idea more for the weekend golfer?

Kuykendall is a hitter, both triceps active (folds both arms in the backstroke to Top, no extensor action, no wristcock), about 75% right triceps, no pivot power, palm right hand grip, big Roll Transfer accumulator power, very little wrist cock if any at all, horizontal hinging. In his video I see no evidence of flattening right wrist. At the Top he says address hands angles maintained, at least. Not flattening the right wrist through impact unless what I'm looking at has been superseded.

It's all right triceps, right forearm, followed by both forearm swivel into impact from P3, roll power increasing clubhead speed 50%, he says.
85% arms, 15% body which is incidental to facilitate arms' action, almost no advantage in weight of player.
Right shoulder back and down plane, causing about a 6” lateral shift but no rotational force. Impact is relatively squared away, feet flat, weight fairly well balanced. No lower ’Äúspin out”.
Body is all reaction, not action.

He says some other interesting things. The right shoulder moves about 45 degrees but the left shoulder moves about 90. They can move independently a certain amount. No tension in the torso. First move is a ’Äúsit down of about 2 inches, which puts it on plane”.
Looks to me like a coordinated lateral bump with a down plane shoulder drop, followed by a straightening of both elbows.
’ÄúIt must have a feel of an underhanded tossing motion.”

The biggest surprise for me was that both arms fold close to the body in the backstroke and no wrist cock.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

I’d like to pick up on some very important points that Loren has mentioned here so that they are not lost and not made ‘overtechnical’

both triceps active (folds both arms in the backstroke to Top, no extensor action) absolutely! I know that many will disagree but the ‘straight left’ arm is the biggest killer and tension cause in amateurs I come in contact with IMHO

Big Mark Bylsma (Australian LD record holder, handicap +2)

No wristcock Jack never mentioned this to me in person or on his dvds so I would not advise this to be followed

about 75% right triceps, no pivot power, palm right hand grip

The arm power is not consciously active but is facilitated by the body motion aka ‘super stiffening’ as taught and mentioned numerous times by Bio. Jack has the idea right, he just does not understand why he is right. Nobody did until Bio and Zenolink were able to explain it, this is why I would love JK to have an opportunity to meet with Bio and Chris. Right palm grip is a fallacy in terms of what people have taken it to be, including Jack in his explanations, it is still in the fingers but in TGM terms is Weak Double Underhand Action 10-2-E. This facilitates the right wrist straightening (note: Not straight right wrist) at impact. Do you throw a ball with a bent right wrist, and how bent is bent? It is the ‘traditional grip’ that requires bent right wrist as you cannot achieve FLW if you dont, with 10-2-E you can achieve both! This is how Moe did it, it is not palms even though it has been falsely explained that way!

Roll power increasing clubhead speed 50%, he says Happens naturally post extension is not a conscious action, do you roll when you hammer a nail?

A 6” lateral shift but no rotational force. Impact is relatively squared away, feet flat, weight fairly well balanced. No lower ’Äúspin out” There is gold in this, Bio has found it, knows why it happens and how to train it. The wording Jack uses is a little off the mark but he is so close to the money it is not funny! “If you continue to spin you will waste power that you could potentially transfer to the club through kinetic linking” the secret is knowing the why, not the what.

Please guys understand that this is not a dig at Loren in anyway, I just wanted to highlight the major points for those that are interested. Nor is it a shot at Jack, Jack is so close to the truth it is not funny, I hope he gets a chance to see how good his work is and to realise how his physics transfers into optimal human body motion. Purely educational post for people who are interested, not degrading TGM either as a lot of it is covered in there.

In closing dont think “Hit” or “Swing” think optimal body motion, physics and biomechanics and you are close to the truth

Junior

I don’t know a lot about Ballard, but from what I do understand, I like a lot of what he says..

I hate taking one thing like this and saying it holds no water.. I’m sure there is more to the story or the theory..

Junior makes a good point about throwing a ball, a pitcher brings a loaded wrist into the moment of release then fires the wrist actively..
and I think this is exactly what Hogan and Snead talked about..
I like that idea too..

But like all things in the golf swing.. this action must be supported by the correct geometry, delivery path, pivot rotation, forearm action,

I just don’t see how trying to flip your hands underhand through impact
into a flattening right wrist is going to work as a swing thought unless you are doing all the other things necessary to effectively utilize such an approach.. It is however, as very good approach, and one that I encourage, but one needs to be careful trying to blindly implement such a component without proper guidance and direction.

On a side note..
Wild Bill Melhorn was a big advocate of both arms bent at the top back in the 1920’s..

He was in fact Hogan’s idol during Ben’s formative years.
I have read up on his theories since talking to Al Barkow a bit about him, and it is all very CF swinging stuff.. relaxed, dead hands, and just let it go.. zero tension in the body… and that golf is smooth timing and feel…

good if you can do it..

Loren and Junior

Very interesting stuff. Thanks.

I think it will be in my best interest to forget about it over the coming weeks as I work on Bio’s training program. But it is something of a picture of a place on or for the journey.

But like all things in the golf swing.. this action must be supported by the correct geometry, delivery path, pivot rotation, forearm action,

I just don't see how trying to flip your hands underhand through impact
into a flattening right wrist is going to work as a swing thought unless you are doing all the other things necessary to effectively utilize such an approach.. It is however, as very good approach, and one that I encourage, but one needs to be careful trying to blindly implement such a component without proper guidance and direction.

The underhand flip or straightening of of the right wrist always reminds me of the description of the “puck release” action advoctaed by Nick Bradley a few years ago in his booik the 7 LAWS of the Golf Swing. I could understand it going into an angled hinge but I a don’t think that is what we see here in this graphic.

“Centers and Accumulators can be sequenced, overlapped, omitted, emphasized, triggered, and timed as the players understanding and skill permit. But the Club's Swing Radius (6-B-0) ends at the ’Äúnon-lagging” Component nearest to the Clubhead. The ’ÄúCenters” of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employeed Component nearest to the feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation. For maximum Power, the position of must be taken with that will allow Delay of the Release until all Components, except the Right Foot and Right Shoulder, have reached, or passed the Line-of-Site-to-the-Ball per 6-B-1-C. Then the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their ’ÄúIn-Line” Position. But none should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag until well after Impact. Also see 6-H-0.”

The photo/illustration above could easily serve as a bad example of when a Right Arm Swinger Releases too early.

Thought you might be interested ina tiny snippet from an interview Phil Mickelson did recently with Bob Verdi, Lag.

GD: How would you rate yourself as a ball striker?
PM: That’s not a concern of mine. The only way to win tournaments is with the short game. Over half your shots out here are within 30 or 40 yards. Ballstriking is where I’m trying to improve, yes, but more to eliminate big numbers than make birdies.

Full interview

He has a point.

Arnie,

that photo makes me cringe because it shows a complete failure of the pivot to accelerate post impact. The feeling of the hands ever being in the position of the last photo is frightening.

Styles,

Phil has it right.. The tour is not a ball strikers game anymore.. The courses don’t require it, and the perfect greens allow for a lot of mistakes to be made from tee to fringe.

However, for me, golf is still a ball strikers game, because I prefer to play the old style ball strikers courses, and I would love to have Phil come out and spray the ball all over Mare Island, and miss lots of 6 foot putts on less than perfect greens and see what that does to his psyche!

Tight fairways, and small difficult greens (that will hold a proper golf shot) is the way I feel golf should be played, because it requires more of you as a shotmaker, and it feels more rewarding on a good day when you are “in the slot”

I won’t get rich, but I’ll sure enjoy the quest for higher ideals.

Guru/Show/Lag,

OK you asked for it!..The new thread is Answers about Jimmy Ballard's Methodology

Loren and Junior

Very interesting stuff. Thanks.

I think it will be in my best interest to forget about it over the coming weeks as I work on Bio's training program. But it is something of a picture of a place on or for the journey.

Maintain LAG with a FLW (& BRW) on PLANE:
-Good biomechanics lead to lag
-The hands do not add any power to the swing-PPs not PAs = FLW = no flip!
-The magical right forearm traces the plane

You will learn it all on the program my friend and never have to think about a single thing ever again while striking a golf ball. Welcome to golfing freedom!

Just some worthless info

US Open qualifier..

71..missed by one. 7300 yards..and typical USGA silly pin locations.

10 of 14 fairways…15-18 greens.

4 birdies..4 iron 211yds par three..3 feet, 7 iron 176 two feet( hit stick) , two putt birdie from 25 feet, 5 foot last hole birdie.
Had it 12-25 feet 8 other times.

Now the stupid stuff…
3 bogeys..miss club after hitting it 305 on first hole..over green to a short side long right over the top of the pin (I blame my caddy !!) with a nine iron..actually in hazard..up and down bogey. Three putt from 25 feet( tricky down hill first putt) , 8 iron chip and run after missed green to a upper tier pin..bogey.

Putts..31…one of those days where I did not make one putt over 5 feet..ball striking was extremely good..putting ok but nothing went in.

SHOWME, how about a putting mind lesson? I need to call DR. BOB!!

Look out for the summer and the fall classic.

Good golfing to all!!

RT1,

Good effort,
I hear ya about over the green troubles..

and the USGA can really get silly with the pins.. but I also blame the architects on that one too, because they assume the courses are always going to be properly maintained, and that there is some kind of governor of how hard the wind can blow, or how fast greens can dry out.

I will always believe in Alister MacKenzie’s view that a proper golf hole should in general offer some kind of feed it in option or run up option in the event these kind of things happen. Nicklaus started it, Dye juiced it up, and everyone else copied them and tried to outdo the overdone and over cooked.

If I see another railroad tie on a golf course I’ll take the next train to Clarksville.

RT1,

You were born in the wrong generation.
Sam Snead boasted in is book that the reason he won the most tour events of anyone …. even to this day, is because he averaged 33 putts per round. You’d be writing books on putting with George Low and Billy Casper if you averaged 31 putts a round..

Nice to hear you’re hitting pins!

Moe told me his best round ever was hitting 6 pins.. not his multiple 59’s

RT1, Great Job mate!!! One Shot is an absolutely marvelous effort, you must have been very unlucky not to have qualified with that performance…

305!! Oh there is some serious power starting to happen for you my friend… OUCH! Keep up the good work, I know you are training hard!

I will not even say the word “p#tting” anymore… Hahahaha… There are no tips coming from this corner… ;) From 3 ft I am looking to get down in 2!! hahahaha

Keep up the good work bud and look out y’all, cant wait to here about 320 drives soon

Junior

Lag and gurus, how “athletic” is the golf swing? When I watch the smooth swinging pros it seems effortless – except for TW who seems to put everything into each shot.

I ask this as I am really trying to get a balance between control and really putting my body into each swing, erring on the side of more torque and turn – and this means I have to trust that the club will square up. The results are generally good but I can be erratic – lots of pushes when I go too far, particularly with the driver.

Is this the right track or should I back off “the power” and work more on a controlled swing? I probably should post a video some time but hopefully you guys know where I’m coming from.

Rt1 – great effort!

Whitednj: with rhythm you can be athletic. Without it a 20 armed octopus flailing away:) You can build the coordination of the entire machine from slow to slightly faster to faster so that it feels the whole thing is still working in unison. As soon as something flys off, back off a tad. If you finish in beautiful balance all is well.

Guru, I get what you say. I’m trying to fit more stuff into the swing before the balanced finish! But do you tell your students to push the swing components and learn to balance in that paradism or is it always “balanced finish” and whatever fits in that? Chicken or egg?

I look at someone like Peter Senior who gives the swing a workover – I’d love to think I can model myself on his “ungainly” action which keeps delivering shot after shot.

In a different thread Lag wrote:

The problem I have with most golf books is that they spend way too much time discussing grip, stance, posture, and backswing..

I can pure a golf ball with my feet in about any direction, even my legs crossed over, or even off my knees…with all kinds of grips, and I can loop it three times in a circle at the top like a rodeo cowboy, but somehow, I can find my way down to P3 and fire into impact.. and over to P4..

So what is it that's really important in the golf swing? What is hitting the golf ball?

I firmly believe that a proper grip, stance, backswing and posture, will evolve from learning to strike the ball correctly …and properly releasing the club utilizing the power sources from P3 to P4.. the rest of the stuff of course has it's place, but there are much more important things to worry about in the golf swing than where the right pinky connects to the club at address, and if you should flair the right toe 5 degrees at address..

Impact is king..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I have 2 questions following this Lag?
1. You often talk about 4.30 and P3 together. I have read in lots of places about having the club shaft parallel to the target line at P3, but are you saying is should be more at 45 degrees to that (ie 4.30)?
2. Would you recommend some training, with and/or without an impact bag, where you start at p3/4.30 and then finish the swing? Alternatively or as well, might you backswing to that point and then swing down?

And then maybe going further and further back from there?

Whitednj,

Do as Peter Senior does and you will be on the right path…!
Senior’s action is top shelf and in line with every concept I would teach.

As far as golf being athletic…

Think of a duck going across a lake.. it looks graceful smooth and effortless… yet under the water, it is really working hard..

Weetbix,

Because the swing plane is INCLINED not vertical, you are much better to feel the club cocked back 45 degrees at the 3rd parallel..

This does everything you want…

It engages the pivot

It loads all your accumulators properly..

It promotes you to properly release the club either automatically or non automatically. Hit it swing..

It promotes more spine tilt so you can open up the pathway for the arms and hands to access the “golden slot”

If you don’t think of P3 as also cocked back on the 4:30 line, you are really selling yourself short both in reality, intent, and conceptually.

From the top of a backswing Lag, how do you get in this position? It seems like you’d have to really drop your right shoulder and arms, and keep your shoulders closed to get there. Am I right, or am I not thinking about it correctly.

I think doing it from the P3 is obviously doable, but from the top of a backswing to P3 at 45 degrees I can’t imagine or picture it, but then again, I’ve never swung from the inside, nor can I hit any kind of a draw to save my life LOL!

Using an impact bag without proper guidance is not recommended, because if you just start slamming it, there are all kinds of pitfalls that
can happen..

The number one is over acceleration.. it’s a very exacting form that is in many ways much more complicated that it would at first seem.

From P3 into impact is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THE GOLF SWING.. so we really need to be VERY disciplined and execute this move with extreme precision, with proper intentions, pressures, direction, firing order…

I have a video for my students that spells it out load and clear, with as much detail, images, camera angles and so forth, yet NO ONE has been able to just watch it and get it straight away. The reason is that what they think they are doing is not what they are doing. It’s extremely counter intuitive to what most people THINK they should be doing.

It’s a tough process of tweaking, adjusting, moving things around,
a little of this, or lot less of that…. and so forth…

I just don’t believe in teaching the backswing, transition or downswing, until you know exactly what to do once you arrive at P3 4:30.

It’s like running towards a cliff and jumping off, not knowing what is below or how far you will be falling..

Do you need a parachute? a Pogo stick? a bathing suit? wings?

Get prepared before you take the leap down to the golf ball.

trentster,

maybe Prot can chime in here and share his experience in his quest for the holy grail or the 4:30 line…

This is a great question you pose.. how to you get there?

Well.. like I just said, you had first better learn what to do with the club from that position into impact..

Secondly, you better, know if you are hitting or swinging…

But in a nutshell.. you can either learn the big drop like Furyk,
or loop it in there like Trevino, or just go really flat, because it can feel a lot more straight back straight through.. or you can go upright and cross it over at the top like Nicklaus, or whip it inside and lay it off,
there are a lot of ways to get there.. a lot more options for that, than there are from P3 into impact..

Lag, your swing looks simple, or atleast you make it look simple :)

How would you say you get to that P3 4:30 position from the top of your backswing?

I’m liking the flat option. I know it is very athletic, it just feel natural (ish)

trentster,

maybe Prot can chime in here and share his experience in his quest for the holy grail or the 4:30 line…

This is a great question you pose.. how to you get there?

Well.. like I just said, you had first better learn what to do with the club from that position into impact..

Secondly, you better, know if you are hitting or swinging…

But in a nutshell.. you can either learn the big drop like Furyk,
or loop it in there like Trevino, or just go really flat, because it can feel a lot more straight back straight through.. or you can go upright and cross it over at the top like Nicklaus, or whip it inside and lay it off,
there are a lot of ways to get there.. a lot more options for that, than there are from P3 into impact..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I guess to chime in, because it was very hard for me to ‘get this’. I still think it’s the biggest challenge, but once you start getting it, you can actually go too far, because you start to trust it… and then I was in hook-hell…

I thought I was doing Lag’s 4:30 drill properly, then I finally realized, you can’t do it with your arms. You really shouldn’t anyway (as a hitter I suppose).

So the trick is to understand that you really shouldn’t accelerate until very late in the down swing. To accelerate early means spending your angles too soon. At first I looked for little ‘feels’. Like my right upper arm clamping to my core before going after the ball.

Then next thing you know, it starts to feel natural as a drill. The next step is trusting it with hitting balls. The ‘old’ desire to use the arms to ‘hit’ is prominent at first. But once your club reaches parallel I find my arms travel VERY little between parallel and the ball getting hit from that inner quadrant. Close the face properly with assistance from a pivot, and viola, draw in a bottle.

Don’t hit too soon. It’s hard to get past that, and I think it’s almost mandatory to do it as lag suggests with an impact bag. That gives you a head start at least.

I hope this makes sense. Don’t give into the early desire to hit. Don’t let your arms do the work down there either. That’s what it took for me to get it. To practice it? A 1/2 (I mean a real one half) backswing shows you just how powerful a hitter action can be, because it eliminates arms, and forces you to hit later.

I also remember, I actually had to (and still do) think of total acceleration happening at a spot about 12” past the ball… sounds insane doesn’t it? But the best results followed.

“It's like running towards a cliff and jumping off, not knowing what is below or how far you will be falling..

Do you need a parachute? a Pogo stick? a bathing suit? wings?”

Before you hit the ground you should be thinking “so far so good!”.

trentster,

maybe Prot can chime in here and share his experience in his quest for the holy grail or the 4:30 line…

This is a great question you pose.. how to you get there?

Well.. like I just said, you had first better learn what to do with the club from that position into impact..

Secondly, you better, know if you are hitting or swinging…

But in a nutshell.. you can either learn the big drop like Furyk,
or loop it in there like Trevino, or just go really flat, because it can feel a lot more straight back straight through.. or you can go upright and cross it over at the top like Nicklaus, or whip it inside and lay it off,
there are a lot of ways to get there.. a lot more options for that, than there are from P3 into impact..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I guess to chime in, because it was very hard for me to ‘get this'. I still think it's the biggest challenge, but once you start getting it, you can actually go too far, because you start to trust it… and then I was in hook-hell…

I thought I was doing Lag's 4:30 drill properly, then I finally realized, you can't do it with your arms. You really shouldn't anyway (as a hitter I suppose).

So the trick is to understand that you really shouldn't accelerate until very late in the down swing. To accelerate early means spending your angles too soon. At first I looked for little ‘feels'. Like my right upper arm clamping to my core before going after the ball.

Then next thing you know, it starts to feel natural as a drill. The next step is trusting it with hitting balls. The ‘old' desire to use the arms to ‘hit' is prominent at first. But once your club reaches parallel I find my arms travel VERY little between parallel and the ball getting hit from that inner quadrant. Close the face properly with assistance from a pivot, and viola, draw in a bottle.

Don't hit too soon. It's hard to get past that, and I think it's almost mandatory to do it as lag suggests with an impact bag. That gives you a head start at least.

I hope this makes sense. Don't give into the early desire to hit. Don't let your arms do the work down there either. That's what it took for me to get it. To practice it? A 1/2 (I mean a real one half) backswing shows you just how powerful a hitter action can be, because it eliminates arms, and forces you to hit later.

I also remember, I actually had to (and still do) think of total acceleration happening at a spot about 12” past the ball… sounds insane doesn't it? But the best results followed.

’ÄúTry smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

That’s great to hear from another Lag disciple! I have always been a hitter, and mostly with my arms. I’m excited to be able to coordinate my body better. When you say…”But once your club reaches parallel I find my arms travel VERY little between parallel and the ball getting hit from that inner quadrant.”...I would assume that you have gotten your right elbow WAY in front of your hip, like Hogan, and that your hands may quite possibly be already even with the ball, does this sound correct?

You talk about hitting a draw. I’ve never hitt’en a draw so that would be nice.

Actually I would have to say ideally, my right arm position is more akin to George Knudson, coming off the right side of my body.

I mean the hands do travel… about a foot or so, while the wrists, forearms etc, release very hard. When you get to a point that you are hitting the inside of the ball and your pivot is assisting in closing the face enough… you will draw the ball. Trust me.

I started at that point going flatter and flatter to get a fade, or a more preserved right arm, until after impact.

Right now I’m struggling with pivot timing. I had it nailed for a while, so it just goes to show, it can all get derailed if you aren’t mindful of it. ;)

Prot,

What’s your handicap now?

Here is some textbook P3 4:30

These guys had it right….

Not on current biomechanical findings… Pity Bio not here to explain it throughly… The modern swing will be heaps squarer with less rotation particularly in the hips…

Here is some textbook P3 4:30

Given the camera angle looks quite a way behind the target line – based on the right foot being hidden from view well behind the left and that you can still see his back in the P3 and follow through positions – if I trace the club angle at P3 it doesn’t look anything like a 4.30 position (which I understand is 45 degrees to the target line).

It actually doesn’t look much deeper than the toe/heel line. I think if we saw a clear down the line photo of the position in the first photo it would look not a long way off parallel to the target line.

I know it’s hard to tell with 2 dimensional images but it sure doesn’t look anything like 4.30 to me.

Photos are of the same player…. Gay Brewer

Lag can elaborate more….he will explain it light years better than me…........
but if you look at the single photo from down the line view…..........I don’t think you can get into that p4 position without hitting from 4.30 p3…......if he wasn’t in the 4.30 position he couldn’t rotate his pivot as well and his hands would be flicking off into right field….
so he would be swinging the same way in the other photos too…as it is the same person….

Shomethamoney,

Can you imagine the sensation that Brewer has at P3, will it be one of potentially hooking the living daylights out of the ball?

And then at P4, we see the club trailing to the right, ball going straight, imagine the intense sensation of feel that he has by the act of resisting the inclination of the club to hook the ball from P3.

Is he controlling the ball with this directed pressure rather than just hitting at it with a fast swipe at the ball?

Lag knows the better understanding and dynamics of this…....

I think if you are coming from the P3 area like brewer is (and from my own feeling) ....I don’t feel like I can hook it…..as long as my body rotates and drives and take the hands along for the ride with that force….. also remember most good players have a weaker grip which also resists the hands from rotating too much
To me it feels much more powerful coming from that direction. My entire body gets incorporated into the action. I know my bad shots come from club coming too much down the line and the body just doesn’t want to fire and release from that area…something slows down (body) and then something else quickens (hands) and all hell breaks loose then….............................................
That’s my own feeling and idea…... I believe Hogan said something to that effect also…that the faster he can go from what Lag calls P3 to P4 and then beyond with his entire body…. the straighter he can actually hit the ball

Gotta resist to hit the ball…..... the intent is the path and line and force with all components right into and through the hitting area
Let the ball get in the way of the motion

OK…maybe I am not explaining this question properly, but I think Lag likes to get his students to create that hooking sensation to start with and then he gets us to redirect that sensation into an angled hinge look like the p4 picture. This puts immense feel in the hands but of course you have to get that ‘pulling it out of orbit’ move right to perform this correctly.

Ultimately, I don’t think you can get those two pics at P3 and P4 unless you are pulling the club out of orbit correctly.

That’s right…....what you say is correct because the move is entirely different to what most people do…so the hook like Lag says is good when you are moving along the process.

I was going by my sensation…..which is going to be entirely different to what you may feel because I swung that way since I was 12 years old.. so the hooking sensation was never there for me because i swung that way all along and never had to start afresh and feel something entirely different… It was always ingrained and natural to me

Hey Lag, thought you might like this story I found on Geoff Shackleton:

Curt Sampson, working on a story for Sports Illustrated, drew a crowd on the practice range when he unveiled a MacGregor Byron Nelson persimmon driver. Everybody wanted to hit it. Vijay Singh went the longest at 253 yards, one yard farther than Colleyville’s Chad Campbell. Campbell, who swings like Ben Hogan, managed a carry of 232 yards using an old balata ball.

I still don’t see why they think Campbell and Hogan swing alike. Not to my eye they don’t.

Junior,

The modern swing is of course based upon the modern gear that doesn’t require the golf swing to be as precise or dynamic. Every time I read an article about a modern player who is handed a set of tiny blades and persimmons, they core of the article is usually around “how the hell did they hit this stuff? wow those guys were good”.

Junior, the thing you might be overlooking is that back then, the game required the type of release that could enable the player to shape the ball with a very different protocol for plane line manipulation, and hinging. Accuracy was king.. and although distance is always a good thing, it was not to be at the expense of accuracy and precision shot making.

I’m sure you and Bio are correct about what is the best way to biomechanically create massive velocity, but that is not always the best way to hit the ball straight, and I say this because I am not convinced that an angled hinge action which requires a different type of pivot action is the best way to maximize velocity, but I do believe it to be the best way to control the golf ball, and I still believe that most golfers would do themselves a big favor by letting go of the “I have to hit it farther” and insert “I have to hit it straighter”.

I’ve spoken to Bio about it, and he knows.. we are very much on the same page about the golf swing. More same than not, that’s for sure.

Styles,

I really think golf needs to, and at some point I believe it will, split into two sports..

Just like baseball and softball.

Indy car, Nascar.

In a sense it already has, as there are hickory events and tournaments in existence already.. and at some point people I think there will be an appreciation for the golden persimmon age of which a great deal of golf’s history revolves around. There are just too many gorgeous pieces of real estate around with great golf courses that were designed for a 250 yard drive, and an opportunity to play all the clubs in the bag.

I think as the years go by, more and more players will wake up to idea, or find the idea.

I found a like minded persimmon nut here in SF that had no idea anyone was even talking about such things.. and he is the club champion and course record holder at Lincoln Park, which is SF’s most historic golf course. He shot a 60 with a set of Mac Gregor Super Eye O Matic woods, Tommy Armour Silver Scots from the eary 50’s and an old iron master putter.

With the golf boom of recent years, and all the new technology, his record round of 60 still stands.. and they get hundreds of rounds played there daily, year after year, and no one has touched it.

That says something I believe.

He shot a 60 with a set of Mac Gregor Super Eye O Matic woods, Tommy Armour Silver Scots from the eary 50's and an old iron master putter.

With the golf boom of recent years, and all the new technology, his record round of 60 still stands.. and they get hundreds of rounds played there daily, year after year, and no one has touched it.

That says something I believe.

Lag,

Actually I think it speaks VOLUMES!!

Robbo

Junior,

The modern swing is of course based upon the modern gear that doesn't require the golf swing to be as precise or dynamic. Every time I read an article about a modern player who is handed a set of tiny blades and persimmons, they core of the article is usually around ’Äúhow the hell did they hit this stuff? wow those guys were good”.

Junior, the thing you might be overlooking is that back then, the game required the type of release that could enable the player to shape the ball with a very different protocol for plane line manipulation, and hinging. Accuracy was king.. and although distance is always a good thing, it was not to be at the expense of accuracy and precision shot making.

I'm sure you and Bio are correct about what is the best way to biomechanically create massive velocity, but that is not always the best way to hit the ball straight, and I say this because I am not convinced that an angled hinge action which requires a different type of pivot action is the best way to maximize velocity, but I do believe it to be the best way to control the golf ball, and I still believe that most golfers would do themselves a big favor by letting go of the ’ÄúI have to hit it farther” and insert ’ÄúI have to hit it straighter”.

I've spoken to Bio about it, and he knows.. we are very much on the same page about the golf swing. More same than not, that's for sure.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Thats very true Lag, I had over looked that point. Do you think it is hazardous though to teach such a method to people that are utilising modern golf equipment and playing the modern game?

I do struggle with your concept that all well do is strive to smash the ball and to hell with where it goes. Accuracy of delivery is also very important, the centre of a square clubface is always going to be longer than an open toe.

I also use an angled hinge…

Lag,

Has Johnny Miller moved backed to SF?

Also, any thoughts on your basic greenside bunker shot? Do you treat them like a mini impact bag with vertical hinge action? or do you have some other technique? or do you handle the bunker with hitter protocol and angle hinge?

Thanks

No I don’t think Johnny ever moved back, but he played a lot of golf at Lincoln Park, and never touched 60 out there..

We are looking at playing the next TRGA event at the historic Rancho Park GC right in the heart of Los Angeles…

Rancho Park

Notice the course record shot in 1968 Bobby Howe a 61. Still standing to this day, and I can assure you Tiger has played there many times.

There are all kinds of course records that are still standing from the golden age, in spite of all the technology… and I really believe that the modern gear is aimed at helping the hacker and not the good player.

Today I played with a set on 1950’s Haig Ultra Irons (Contour Soles).. it was the first time I had ever hit them.. I worked on them setting the loft and lies to my specs, but never once hit a range ball.
I did re grip them, but played the original shafts (stiff) and heavy.
I hit 15 greens first time out, and had it all over the pin all day, hit it inside 10 feet 6 times with full irons shots. Even Barkow gave me the nod after the round, and believe me, he is a hard guy to impress!

I just don’t know how much better I could hit a golf ball even if you gave me the latest and greatest set of anything out today. The three greens I missed, one was 20 feet right of the pin, and about 10 feet right of where I was aiming into the safe side of the green with a 6 iron. The other two plugged in the lip of two bunkers, but the shots were both covering the flagstick to front pin placements.. it was a pretty unspectacular 70, but even Al thought it could just as easily been a 64 with a hot flat stick.

Ok, what was the question? Bunker shots? Just on a bit of high from todays ball striking!

I use a 56 degree SW with a fair amount on bounce, but not a real wide flange.

I have a little secret about how I set up my SW… but “hint” I like to swing on the same plane angle as my other shots, so I open the face up, play the ball forward, and try to set and cock my wrists quickly, and just spank it out on a pillow of sand, very firm and aggressive. I like to vertical hinge it, and I like to get the club up and out of the sand as quickly as possible, so unlike normal golf shots,
FLW goes out the window.. I am a very handsy bunker player.
Of the three bunkers I was in today… I was plugged in one, but the other two I nearly hole, but tap ins for par.

I spank it down firm and don’t like the idea of the club spending a lot of time down there in the sand… in and out quickly….and the very wristy method allows from that..

I’m sure Showme has some bunker tips (I hope) he’d like to share.

Junior,

The only thing the modern gear is doing is allowing the ball to go 20% farther, and the ability to stop the ball quicker out of the rough. Both concepts have been tragic to the game in my opinion. Missing a fairway should be a penalty, about half a shot.. meaning you should have a very difficult time getting the ball on the green.. there for if you are a 50% around the greens then… there you do.. half a shot..

For a guy like Tiger to be 150th in driving accuracy ( is he even that good?) and then be leading in GIR’s this is beyond ridiculous.

Put Tiger out there 270 off the tee in US Open rough, with no square souped up grooves and he has to hit mid irons into those greens and not be able to hold the ball.. and I think he would not have nearly the record he does. Has he ever hit the driver straight? Nothing like Norman did or Faldo.

I know it’s an unpopular opinion I have, but I think the players in the modern game are extremely over rated if they had to play the style of golf that the previous generation had to… and are compared against constantly.

I know Bio agrees because we have talked about it.. The modern players don’t have to have great golf swings and be great strikers, for the simple reason they don’t have to.. Bomb it, pitch it, and roll it on the felt.

But that doesn’t work on every golf course. There are still a lot of great courses around that will not allow that kind of golf to be effective. And most of the golfers here on iseek are probably not playing PGA Tour type conditions, so I suggest learning the swing the golf club properly.

I need to come hit off your back deck Lag…..and learn some more good stuff off you….then I will share all my bunker secrets first hand at The Mare !!!

If you think golf gear has gone “too modern” have a look at the good old bow and arrow – my kid wants to get into this sport and I’m thinking Robin Hood and Sherwood Forrest and this is the link he sends me …. http://www.abbeyarchery.com...

Is that a bow???? Looks like a Bullworker (for those old enough to know what that is).

If you think golf gear has gone ’Äútoo modern” have a look at the good old bow and arrow – my kid wants to get into this sport and I'm thinking Robin Hood and Sherwood Forrest and this is the link he sends me …. http://www.abbeyarchery.com…

Is that a bow???? Looks like a Bullworker (for those old enough to know what that is).

Classic !

I have kept my Honma Persimmons in my Museum
and every now n then admire them
what a work of art !

I’ve heard on a regular basis that Norman was a good driver of the ball, in fact I heard him comment on it around Augusta time (if memory serves me correct) What was it that made him such a good driver? Can an easy answer be given? Is there a couple of TGM imperitives in there or what was doing???
Hope someone can help….

dcee

I followed Norman 3 times over the years (1998 Holden Int, 1996 Aus Open, 1989 PGA – he won all 3). He was so straight and long off the tee it was scary. He was playing a different game to the other pros. He used to put so much into each drive, nothing smooth to this untrained eye, a bit like the difference between Tiger and Adam Scott. He could work the ball either way. A privilage to watch live.

Bio has said to me that Norman had the best natural biomechanics he has ever seen in a golfer.

I’ve never seen anyone hold shaft flex with a driver to this degree all the way to the ball.

So why did Norman drive the ball so well day in and day out, week after week, long and straight? This is why..

Next question.. How does one do that?

If you’re interested in reading this whole article, drop me a line at
lagpressure@yahoo.com

In Norman’s case, it starts with the feet.

I think Greg had the most fantastic footwork and lower body mechanics of anyone I have ever seen either live or on film.

His post impact pivot force was just out of this world. He was playing a different game than most. He was such a superior ball striker to Tiger it’s not even a comparison.

Refer answer above! :o)

In Norman's case, it starts with the feet.

I think Greg had the most fantastic footwork and lower body mechanics of anyone I have ever seen either live or on film.

His post impact pivot force was just out of this world. He was playing a different game than most. He was such a superior ball striker to Tiger it's not even a comparison.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Whoa, big call

Have to agree with Lag on this, although I think Tiger is a phenomenal player, it is almost exclusively because of his stellar short game and supernatural putting ability.

His driving stats are not stellar at all.

Have to agree with Lag on this, although I think Tiger is a phenomenal player, it is almost exclusively because of his stellar short game and supernatural putting ability.

His driving stats are not stellar at all.

Not bad with the irons though. Driver isn’t the whole of ballstriking.

Thanks for the responses guys. I love this thread… I look for it everytime I log on. Always something happening, always something to think about. I’m always sad when there is no new posts for a couple of days.

Without getting too much away from the topic, what is the quick answer to why Norman’s swing broke down on that infamous day at Augusta in ‘96??? Not the mental aspect, but the physical breakdown of his swing. Any ‘quick’ thoughts from those in the know?

Sent that email, thanks Lag

dcee

Although I would not describe myself as being ‘in the know’, Norman’s physiological swing did not break down, he lost it from a mental perspective, imagine someone being under a huge amount of psychiatric stress and not being able to cope with it, thats what happened in my view.

Its a very fine line dealing with stress at such a high end competitive level…like walking a tightrope and the concentration makes you play better but if you panic, watch out…

Would be interested in Lag’s and Shome’s take on this.

Junior,

The only thing the modern gear is doing is allowing the ball to go 20% farther, and the ability to stop the ball quicker out of the rough. Both concepts have been tragic to the game in my opinion. Missing a fairway should be a penalty, about half a shot.. meaning you should have a very difficult time getting the ball on the green.. there for if you are a 50% around the greens then… there you do.. half a shot..

For a guy like Tiger to be 150th in driving accuracy ( is he even that good?) and then be leading in GIR's this is beyond ridiculous.

Put Tiger out there 270 off the tee in US Open rough, with no square souped up grooves and he has to hit mid irons into those greens and not be able to hold the ball.. and I think he would not have nearly the record he does. Has he ever hit the driver straight? Nothing like Norman did or Faldo.

I know it's an unpopular opinion I have, but I think the players in the modern game are extremely over rated if they had to play the style of golf that the previous generation had to… and are compared against constantly.

I know Bio agrees because we have talked about it.. The modern players don't have to have great golf swings and be great strikers, for the simple reason they don't have to.. Bomb it, pitch it, and roll it on the felt.

But that doesn't work on every golf course. There are still a lot of great courses around that will not allow that kind of golf to be effective. And most of the golfers here on iseek are probably not playing PGA Tour type conditions, so I suggest learning the swing the golf club properly.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I can totally agree with your points Lag, but and as is the case with our debates (which I must add are never meant derogatoraly in their direction toward you) me being a modernist and you being a purist…

The game is what it is and I think any result will be a halt in further progression rather than a regression… That being said…

Tiger will never be 270 out without square grooves so not worth address, he plays the modern game he is required to do and is head and shoulders above anyone else currently

To say he is a poor ball striker is ridiculous, he hits shots that nobody can fathem… His error is in his aggression at times… but his weakness is also his strength and the fact that he is so powerful is why his errors dont severely hurt him (most of the time). He is winning what more does he need? Until he is challenged is there a need for him to be better?

With regards to the iseek golfer… Do they not play with modern equipment? Is it not a lack of length that puts so much pressure on their games? And when will they ever come across penal rough? (Most of the courses I have been too where the ‘average golfer’ plays has next to no rough) Why not teach them a more modern swing, the average golf score has not improved for 100 years, something needs to change?

Also must compare the “average” with the distance they hit which is shorter than the previous generation of pros even with the technology advantage. Majority hit the ball well under 250 yards (dispite the estimates of others), is distance not an advantage?

Agree with Greg Norman being magical (the other Norman is not bad either!), best driver off a golf ball ever. Why? Sensational body motion. As Lag alluded to the best footwork ever and the modern golf swing as being taught by Bio is a ground up process… Hell you cant even get to upper body motion until you have the feet right! I know have been working on it for 6 months! hahaha…

Re Greg’s swing breakdown? Mental and psychological stress and breakdown will cause even the greatest player to second guess themselves and cause their technique breakdown. Greg had an aggressive swing with an aggressive game plan, as soon as that seed of doubt creeps in and you go against what made you great in the first place, you are gone!! Going conservative and trying not to lose is a different mindset from staying aggressive and trying to win! This is where Tiger is highly successful, yes technically not as good, but never doubts, never second guesses and sticks with his game plan, He is always trying to forge forwards not just tread water. IMHO

In his day he was by far the best

Without getting too much away from the topic, what is the quick answer to why Norman's swing broke down on that infamous day at Augusta in ‘96??? Not the mental aspect, but the physical breakdown of his swing. Any ‘quick' thoughts from those in the know?

dcee

dcee

My take and I am think I am pretty correct because I have seen a lot of Norman’s play over the past almost 30 years….is this…and it relates to a lot of what Lag talks about…

Flat out….Norman was the absolute best ball striker. I will guarantee that no-one I have seen has hit the ball as strong or as well as he has. He could drive it nearly as long as anyone in today’s game and 100 times straighter..all with a persimmon club that was almost as old as he was. You could hang your washing on the trailmarks his drives left they were that long and straight.

Even though he had some success by seeing Butch Harmon it filtered out by the mid 90’s….I really think that leg work and foot drive and even that right foot slide were the benchmarks of his swing. It’s what made it tick.

When he hit his shanks off to the right (86 Masters, 84 US Open) it was due to the fact he was trying to baby shots back to the pin. He lost that force with his swing and he still swung long but had less acceleration at the ball and the club never caught up to being square because his body or hands became slower through the hit in an attempt to feather the shot into the pin.

He shortened his swing under Butch and won the British in 1993. The shorter swing got him to accelerate on all shots coming into the ball. he felt he had to go faster or firmer at the ball to compensate for that shorter swing and it worked for a while until his swing got longer again.

The 96 Masters was just flat out not him on the final day. He had a huge lead and like I said above…..he played like a sissy trying to protect that lead and not being authoritative through impact and beyond with his swing. He was trying to not make mistakes which made the mistakes anyhow. He lost his groove and he was done for that day by the start of Amen corner.
He always played his best with come from behind swashbuckling approach because that was his nature and it suited his swing style.

That’s a great photo of Norman coming into impact on the scales. I bet a handful of today’s players could do something like that with the shaft/swing coming into the zone

I would be very interested if any of u gentlemen could comment on thishttp://forums.iseekgolf.com...

Tiger will never be 270 out without square grooves so not worth address, he plays the modern game he is required to do and is head and shoulders above anyone else currently

Actually….. I think we’ll get to see the effect of NOT having square grooved wedges at Bethpage this June! Should be interesting.

http://sportsillustrated.cn...

Robbo

Robbo65…..I think that is a misprint about jan 1 2009 being the start….of no more square grooves for PGA
I think it should have read Jan 1 2010… so this years US Open among others won’t be affected.

I have actually started playing some rounds again with older clubs which have have v grooves to see what would happen.
Off the fairway…really no difference. In fact I actually see my irons going if anything a hair farther?? Why?... I don’t know. I am guessing the ball doesn’t grip the grooves as much and jumps a hair. That being said I haven’t noticed the ball stopping much differently on the green. Can still spin them fine.
Now…out of the rough it gets interesting. I have always had trouble getting the ball to ‘GO’ out of the rough…. probably for same reasons above. the ball gets in the grooves more. Now when I hit the v grooves from the rough the ball flies out…. and actually goes it’s regular distance or more…..and I say… GREAT
That’s exactly what I am looking for….so it suits me fine….. they come out hotter and with less spin from the rough but at least I know they are coming out
So we’ll see come next year….. as long as the courses are set up well and don’t have puddings for greens this groove thing should make a difference. i think we may see a little changing of the guard in many aspects…..with the strikers coming more to the fore again and the blasters dropping back a peg or two

sounds good , shame its not the open

Bunker shots? Just on a bit of high from todays ball striking!

I use a 56 degree SW with a fair amount on bounce, but not a real wide flange.

I have a little secret about how I set up my SW… but ’Äúhint” I like to swing on the same plane angle as my other shots, so I open the face up, play the ball forward, and try to set and cock my wrists quickly, and just spank it out on a pillow of sand, very firm and aggressive. I like to vertical hinge it, and I like to get the club up and out of the sand as quickly as possible, so unlike normal golf shots,
FLW goes out the window.. I am a very handsy bunker player.
Of the three bunkers I was in today… I was plugged in one, but the other two I nearly hole, but tap ins for par.

I spank it down firm and don't like the idea of the club spending a lot of time down there in the sand… in and out quickly….and the very wristy method allows from that..

I'm sure Showme has some bunker tips (I hope) he'd like to share.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I think that is a great bunker action to have Lag…..so long as the sand is soft and can be worked through.
the club is accelerating and you are choosing how much sand you ‘throw’ out with the ball to control the spin and the distance.
You have a great feel for the club and what it’s path is and how to deliver it…..so your technique is fine for most playing fields.
For most people though the hands can be evil in bunkers and around the greens.
i would suggest the majority of my bunker shots are played as you suggest. Conditions dictate otherwise sometimes.
When you get up the back of a bunker on the 7th at Royal Melb on some hardpan then it may not perform as well…..but your feel for the conditions will enable you to pull it off and come up with a softer feel to stop that club from bouncing too much…. luckily I have a 60 degree with no bounce so I can also adjust by using that in that situation to help stop the club bouncing through and hitting ball and not enough sand.
Not a big critique….just an observation as I am no doubt sure you would be aware of what I said anyhow
Best way is to not go in the bunkers anyhow!!!!!

Robbo65…..I think that is a misprint about jan 1 2009 being the start….of no more square grooves for PGA
I think it should have read Jan 1 2010… so this years US Open among others won't be affectedshould make a difference. i think we may see a little changing of the guard in many aspects…..with the strikers coming more to the fore again and the blasters dropping back a peg or two

Good catch Shome….. 2010 was my original thinking, but I thought I may have missed something when I saw this article. It explains why there hasn’t been much buzz about it going into Bethpage. I bet gets plenty of play in 2010 with the pundits predicting just who will be “hurt” the most by the change.

Robbo

Lag,

I was just curious about your bunker technique and couldn't remember if it was ever brought up before in 3000 plus posts. For me I'm pretty good in the sand and very wristy as well. I'm terrible using FLW in the bunker. I'm nearly identical with Utley's procedure where there's a square face, lots of clubhead speed and throw with minimal arm/grip swing. I like his leftward spine tilt and no need to cock the wrists upward. Just swing around nice and flat. My only tip (borrowed from Lee Buck) to share is for longer bunker shot, don't swing any faster just keep the sand on your clubface longer. Conversely on short shots don't swing any slower, just dump the sand as fast as needed off the face of your club.

My sand play improved a lot after a lesson I got from both Jim Benepe and Billy Ray Brown, both of whom were outstanding sand players.

So the technique I described I really am just relaying from these guys.

There are so many different conditions such as Show me mentioned, and how you hit a sand shot is really dependent upon so many things that it is really hard to dictate any kind of universal approach.

Bunkers offer us different sand, different under surface, lots of sloping lies, fried eggs, footprints and so forth.

It’s not easy to have any kind of blanket policy from the sand.

I used to use a more stiff wristed approach, with little wrist cock, but the method Billy Ray, and Jim taught me helped me not hit the occassional bladed over the green shot I liked to hit.

Setting the hands quickly, helped steepen the decent into the sand, so I felt I didn’t have to be so precise. The flattern entry exit seemed more troublesome to me in that it felt like it took more precision to execute.

Showme,

did you ever mess with using a PW out of the sand if the sand was either wet or very firm?

I know G Norman talked about using an 8 iron for his long bunker shots… being one of the infamously difficult shots to execute in the game.

What other techniques do you use to deal with the harder sand that many average golfers deal with?

Junior,

the point I am making about Tiger, is that, when it’s all said and done,
I don’t think he is going down in history as one of the greatest ball strikers of all time, because driving the ball straight is an absolute benchmark of the mastery of the art. It’s not just his deplorable stats, it’s how often he drives it 30 or 40 yards right of target, even in some of the most crucial moments. Phil is no better.

It’s because people and the media are making comparisons to the past that this topic would even come up. Jack’s 18 majors, Tiger’s pursuit of that.. but you see, Tiger doesn’t have the same requirements to deal with. Yes he has competition, but on a ball strikers measuring stick, he doesn’t have to drive the golf ball as straight as they guys HAD TO in the past.

The fact is, golf is not the shot makers, ball strikers game it once was.

Teaching the modern swing?

Is Greg Norman the modern swing? His swing developed from the persimmon age.. don’t go bashing the old way.. if you are including Greg Norman.. He used the same ground force principles as Hogan, Knudson, Trevino, just did it even better. Holding shaft flex, the modern swing doesn’t require that?

Who’s the modern model swing now you speak of? Padraig?

Lag,

No Tiger will not go down in history as the greatest ball striker just one of the most successful! I find it ironic that he is that bad and has done so well for himself on the world’s highest pressure stage and yet someone like you who is apparently a great ball striker did not? Why is that?

The trouble with talking about “the modern swing” is you guys all make it mechanical, it is not, it is about optimal body motion. The poster boy for the modern swing? There is not one on tour at this stage. I believe that Bio/CW have the answers to great golf performance and in the next 12 months you will see a radical shift in the golf swing. Yes Norman has optimal body motion! Sadlowski has great body motion – swinging on ice has given him great ability to create ground force which is where it is at! Maybe me one day Lag how bout that! hahaha… I can also say to the golfing world, watch Chris Gaunt very closely over the next few years!

Interestingly enough Mindy Blake in his books was scarily on the money with the evolution of the modern golf swing. It frightens me that someone without the technology to prove it came so close by stepping outside of the golf circle and into the sporting body motion arena. The man was before his time. The application was a little suspect but the principles are all there in black and white.

Showme,

did you ever mess with using a PW out of the sand if the sand was either wet or very firm?

I know G Norman talked about using an 8 iron for his long bunker shots… being one of the infamously difficult shots to execute in the game.

What other techniques do you use to deal with the harder sand that many average golfers deal with?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Playing some practice rounds with these guys is where it is all much more casual and relaxed and you learn some good stuff just by asking and fooling around.
On 2 separate occasions playing practice rounds with Norman I learned the long bunker shot (8 iron blast like you mention) and also an absolute awesome plugged lie technique that he himself got from Seve.
In a tournament round once playing with Norman I gave his buried lie technique a workout from a horrible lie with little green to work with. I actually got it out so good it didn’t run on…it spun and stopped a foot from the hole…. Now you know you’ve hit a good one when the Shark looks you right in the eye and winks and says good shot…. he knew he had shown me that and was glad I had worked on it and put it to use

As for harder sand…...

• 1) less bounce helps
• 2) If that is not an option due to bag setup- then a slower tempo with a squarer face to make the club dig at a slow speed and not accelerate and bounce
• 3) use a wedge – has less bounce…open slightly and play like a normal open stance bunker shot and repeat slow tempo as above
• 4) putt it !!!!!!! chip and run it if there is little lip and room

Just because it is sand doesn’t mean you have to use a sand iron

I think the guys from the past actually had better body mechanics than today’s players. There may have been a few funkier swings but they knew what they were doing to get to impact and make that ball talk and sing.

Yes. todays players may be more finely tuned athletes but they are all club position technique players because of the advent of video cameras and swing programs

If the PGA passed a rule tomorrow about no player being allowed to have a coach…..hardly any of these guys would be able to hit the ball anymore because they have no clue about the swing. They stick it in positions a coach told them without much explanation as to why and away they go…Doesn’t work for a week, they get told one little checkpoint by their Guru and then get told how great they are and the confidence builds and away they go again for a 2 week money pillage and then back to crap again for 4 weeks because they don’t know what makes their swing tick.

The older players were body swinging machines compared to today’s players…..and that’s what Lag is getting at. They knew how to swing their bodies to get the club where it had to be to promote the curve and flight they needed…

Today it is restrict, turn…rip…and go fetch …....with no idea as to what just happened….......because no-one has played by feel or trial and error. ....they all have Mr Guru on the range to get in their ear and give them one idea and 100 brownie points to make them feel good about themselves and they hit a few good shots again

I appreciate what you are saying Junior….it is different today. But for many of the wrong reasons. If you can roll the wheelbarrow up full of money to the bank each week for hitting 50% of the fairways and 55% of the greens and have 24 putts per round then terrific. You don’t make the rules, you only follow them, so if that is what works…great
But sooner or later someone is going to come along with the CORRECT swing logic and feel and belief…... and hit every fairway….and hit every green…..and hole every putt with a great mental approach and win every single week because he is in play , never in danger and can putt lights out

Tiger is awesome…. no doubt about it….but he is awesome at trouble shots (which is nothing to be proud of because trouble should be avoided) and he is the best wedger and putter out there
So he is breaking records with a wedge and a putter and some tree recovery shots…
I am convinced with the right knowledge someone will come along one day that will surpass even him because they will be the best at everything.

Nicklaus….no wedge
Hogan….poor putter
Trevino… low ball flight
watson….average driver
Tiger….. poor driver
Norman… poor luck?
.
Overall every great player has had some weakness…. nobody has really had it all…...it’s out there but it isn’t going to come from what they are working on right now, because right now the hitting is getting worse and the chipping and putting is getting better…. .. that’s the only improvement with todays golf… They putt on marble tops and chipping is a snack for them because it is flop drop stop to a foot and move to the next hole….

I am real interested to see what happens next year when the grooves are changed for PGA events….it doesn’t sound much but it should make a HUGE difference and guys will find they have been barking up the wrong tree for a while with their swing ideas and will jump ship and look for the next big thing to somehow help them hit a fairway or green in regulation

maybe it’s your way Junior….maybe it’s Lag’s proven method…... whatever it is it will be better than the direction the game has moved

Junior,

Your completely missing the point.. Tiger’s driving is poor by tour standards. But because the modern conditions allow for errant tee shots, if not even rewarded, we have a situation were the top players in the world are way down the list in driving stats. Poor driving stats mean poor ball striking. You’re confusing ball striking with scoring.
You only drive the ball 14 times a round.

However, it is a very important measure when you talk about ball striking… because driving the ball sets up the hole. It’s SHOULD BE very important.

The bottom line is, no one is in awe of Tiger’s errant tee shots..
It’s constantly talked about, everyone sees it, he has a problem, and he wouldn’t be going through driver shafts like he’s tossing out junk mail if it wasn’t an issue.. It’s a ball striking issue.

I’m talking about the art of fine ball striking, not about scoring, putting, chipping, saving par from the parking lot. i’m talking about not being in the other fairway, or the parking lot…

Me vs Tiger? do you really want to hear that again? I did my comparison about 100 pages ago! lol

I'm talking about the art of fine ball striking, not about scoring, putting, chipping, saving par from the parking lot. i'm talking about not being in the other fairway, or the parking lot…

Showme: Totally understand and agree with you. The point I am trying to make is Tiger doesnt have to get any better… Why do I say this? Because he is already dominating with what he has… Someone comes out and starts sticking it to him and it will be game on and I agree he will have to get a LOT better at aspects of his game.

I know you guys (Lag and yourself) are about the purity of the game and that the current modern game is not to your liking, but it is the way it is and that is my argument… It will never change back to the good old days, it has gone too far. I am by NO MEANS saying it is a good thing, I would rather see magical ball striking, but it is not the way it is, so we deal with it and play the game the way it is.

Distance is and always will be a major advantage, I am yet to read anything that says that it isnt and wont be. Imagine Showme you drove the ball 350 off the tee and above average accuracy. Would the game not be a hell of a lot easier for you? Now you hit it only 220 off the tee, Is that going to make it tougher?

Give me a strong young kid with a killer short game who can can putts like no tomorrow and let me teach him to drive 350 off the tee with accuracy and I’ll show you the next tour dominater!

You guys better hope that Sadlowski cant chip and putt because if and when he decides to join the tour jaws are going to drop, he is a great ball striker, very accurate and his length makes Daly and Tiger look like they belong on the LPGA!

PS: Not my swing method, is the biomechanical swing model for optimal body motion… No thinking, no mechanical measures, just pure impact pleasure and consistancy. Length and Accuracy…

Lag:

I understand perfectly well what you are saying but last time I checked they only wrote numbers on the score card not stats… Tiger does the numbers pretty well…

As for you V Tiger? Dont take this as an insult but I dont need to go 100 pages back to know the result.

Junior,

Gotta be old school golf…
apples to apples mate..

Tiger and I have never played head to head.. the only possible comparison where we played the same course in the same event
was the Sun Bowl All Star event.. 10 years apart. 1985 – 1995
I doubt Tiger had a persimmon in his hands in 95.

211

As absurd as it may sound..
It’s not my job to fear another player. Respect yes.. fear no.

Put us on a course like Pasa Tiempo, and I’d play him straight up for three or four rounds.

Tiger is not invincible.

Has he even won a professional event using persimmon?

Rochie,

I think if you took an average between total driving and GIR, you would get an interesting #.

Moe would probably measure it in how many pins he hit during the week.

He told me his best round ever was 6 pins!

I hit 3 in a round one day at Madera CC.. so I have no doubt Moe could hit six.

Let’s get back on the golf swing..

Here is some food for thought!

No P3 4.30 there! But definitely 4.30 as it comes into P3.

Lag:

You assume Tiger’s competition wouldn’t suffer if they also used persimmons. I would think that the gap between the top skilled players and the less skilled players would increase if persimmons were used because I am of the belief that the less skilled you are, the more you have to gain from using better equipment. Plus, I’ve seen Tiger hit a right handed club left handed from next to a tree back into play, and maybe even onto or near the green. I think you are dead wrong about his inability to play in the previous era. If he were to win 20 Majors would you finally be convinced?

John McEnroe shares similar sentiments with regards to wooden rackets. Where you two differ is that he doesn’t completely question the greatness of Sampras and Federer (just a little). His main beef is with the marginal player who doesn’t have the shotmaking ability but is helped by the modern rackets, and that because the sweetspot is basically anywhere on the racket, the game has lost its artistry and finesse. His complaint is more about the state of the sport than singling out a single player’s accomplishments.

Tiger’s strength isn’t his driving, but his short game and that is where he is Rembrandt and Michaelangelo. He’s Dali and that guy who paints with his bodily fluids when he uses the driver.
Asking how many tournaments Tiger won using persimmons doesn’t make any sense.

Asking how many tournaments Tiger won using persimmons doesn't make any sense.

Well, that is exactly my point, Junior bringing up comparing me to Tiger, also makes zero sense.

I do think Tiger would do well in the persimmon era… not sure however he would dominate Nicklaus or anyone else. Different times, different games.. and because golf changed so drastically with the gear, all bets are off making comparisons… absolutely senseless, and so is how many majors Tiger wins.. only means he won them in the Titanium age. Apples to apples..

I have seen Tiger hit persimmons in practice…a few years back now. He hit them quite well at times…..but his misses with the persimmon was horrific….even worse than his misses that he does now. The ball went straight right or just nose dived left because of the bulge and roll of the face.
So….is that the swing or the club? Tiger is so good he would work it out…eventually….however the way the game is played now he can win with just a wedge and a putter so why does he really need to knuckle down and really work it out?.... He doesn’t….hopefully next year when you can’t be spinning shots back from rough and fliers are back in play… It will make some guys analyze their game a bit more and start making ballstriking head back a little more to pure ideas instead of bashing it anywhere.
As for the McEnroe tennis statement he is saying the same thing as Lag…... the top players would still work it out just like Federer or Sampras…..it’s the poorer player that is being given money in todays world that would have difficulties… you certainly wouldn’t be seeing double handed strokes from both sides like many of todays tennis pros do. Just like you wouldn’t see guys trying to bash the hell out of a wooden headed driver.
That’s what is going on….golf has become about power and putting, whereas it used to be about precision and fairways and greens in reg

This argument could go on forever because some people never played golf the way it was meant to be played and some people are chuffed that they hit the ball 20 yards farther with the new gear so think that is the way.
Best news yet….......improve your swing. Play better golf… It’s that simple…. a new club isn’t going to do it for you no matter what the commercials try to tell you… I would spend $400 on good lessons any day before i would spend $400 on a club

Lag – I’m sorry but that ‘comparison’ between you and Tiger just doesn’t wash. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Where were the tees on your week? How windy was it? How firm were the fairways? How high was the rough? Where were the pins?

It’s meaningless – almost like me going around saying ‘hey, I got a birdie on this hole and so did Tiger – therefore…....’!!!!!

If I went out and played with a v.good player and stayed with him for a few holes or even more, would I go around afterwards trying to compare my game to his?

Absolutely not.

Your point on the persimmon is not without merit but it doesn’t stretch to “I shot 211, he shot 211, therefore…...”

I don’t know… to be honest, I think it does ‘wash’.

I can’t speak for Lag, but it seems for people insistent on making a comparison, I think Lag is saying; this is as close as it gets. And I think it’s fair.

It can’t be entirely discounted. It’s the same course, relatively similar era. The same level of pressure. Heck, you can’t discard it just because of weather… I mean they keep course ‘record’ scores regardless of era, or course renovations never mind weather.

Some skeptics seem to continually seem to challenge Lag’s ideas with comparisons to modern players. I see nothing wrong with Lag presenting his own comparison with similar circumstances/conditions in mind.

It is all relevant…

Only Championship courses have been really lengthened of late, so courses played back then were basically the same course.
If they have been lengthened a little it has only been to compensate the ball going farther with the bigger heads…so it all matches up.

I would personally say that older records are even stronger because of the above . Not all holes can be lengthened to achieve a similar club being hit into a hole. If it used to be drive/5 iron it is probably drive/8 iron now. And as far as the course condition, it isn’t close. Agronomy has leaped ahead also . Today all events are played on carpet for fairways and pool table tops for greens.

It’s all relevant…. I still have some course records that were achieved with persimmon clubs and soft tour balata balls…. No-one has come really close to matching them even with all todays so called advances…...
I achieved those records by hitting fairway after fairway and green after green and making a couple of putts….. not by chipping in 3 times and making 10 putts over 30 feet. It was control and accuracy…which I had more of definitely before this ‘technology’ came along.

How can it not matter that it could have pelting with rain one week and not the next.

I’ve lots of time for Lag’s ideas they are very interesting but I don’t think this one has much merit.

Anyway, I’ve had my 2 cents, you guys have had yours – as ever, no hard feelings and, as Lag said – back to the swing….....

Beez,

What you are saying is that course records then mean nothing…

However, I do think a 54 hole event, in fact the most exclusive event in US collegiate golf, is a fair comparison of our abilities on the same course, under the same pressure, with similar gear, and being about the same age… is the best one can do for comparisons. 10 years apart, but not as far apart as a lot of other comparisons being made.

What’s wrong with comparing one week? People do that all the time when talking about the Olympics.. Spitz vs Phelps.. or whomever.
1 week every four years. Decade to decade, 30 minutes on the ice.
The big game, The World Cup.. The Super Bowl. One day only in a lot of other sports. How about a horse race?

Hogan played one British Open.. he proved he could win it.
I played one Sun Bowl, I proved I could shoot the same score Tiger Woods shot when he played in it. That’s all I’m saying.

Sun Bowl All American

It’s an amazing event and interesting to see all the great players that played there over the years.

I also shot the course record in the Sun Bowl pro am at El Paso CC the day before… not sure if that is still standing, but I have a trophy buried in a box somewhere in the attic for it.

Belittle it all you want, but I did it.

What I didn’t do was beat Sam Randoph very often. Sam wouldn’t have had any trouble taking down Tiger or anybody when he was dominating in the early 80’s.

I remember playing Junior World, and they announced Sam to the first tee at Torrey Pines. The starter says.. “On the first tee from Santa Barbara California with a qualifying score of 61. ” The starter looks at Sam and says… “is that right Sam? 61? Sam says in his
quiet demeanor, “Yes sir, I did, I shot a 61 to qualify for your event sir” it was a classic moment.. the look on the starter’s face, thinking it was a typo or something. Of course Sam went on the win the tournament by a landslide. No one could beat him. That summer in junior golf he shot in the 60’s every single round except for maybe one or two rounds for the whole summer. All Hogan gear. Hit that Speed Slot Persimmon a mile.. low fade bullet, never saw him miss a fairway left. Rarely ever missed right either. He won every tournament.

Won every tournament … Then what happened?

What happened after he won every tournament in Junior golf?
He had his choice of schools and went to USC and won just about everything there for 4 years.. including the US Amateur.. low amateur
in the Masters twice. Butler cabin, all that great stuff.
Came out of University, signed a huge deal with IMG, got his PGA Card, won on the PGA Tour… Sounds good to me…

Great player… to have a run like that for 8 years is better than most will ever do.. even if he never played again. I played head to head against Sam for 6 years and hats off to him for raising the bar on what a golfer could do with a golf ball. I think about his action all the time.. he did everything right in the golf swing.. compressed it like no one I had ever seen up until that point..

Anyone following golf in the 1980’s knew who Sam Randolph was.

Just thought I would post my experience as one of Lag's students nearly three months into the drills and online tuition.

First thing to say is that the online element of the tuition was very convenient from my perspective, no need to be anywhere at a certain prescribed time, no travelling etc….

Lag is very good at reviewing the videos very promptly and I admire his work ethic in this regard and it seems that he has the patience of a saint in trying to make sure that every detail of the modules are understood and implemented before he allows you to progress, quite an old fashioned concept in this day and age.

Reading about the concept, understanding it and perfecting the modules are very different ball games. It is quite amazing how far off one can be just imitating the drills and it really does require Lag's expert eye to ensure the drills are done correctly.

Perfecting each drill is ‘tough stuff', each drill isolates a specific element of the swing and requires very precise and in every case thus far, very unfamiliar biomechanical actions. By dint of sheer hard work and the odd hint to Lag that I was curious about the next stage (lol!) I have managed to progress to the third module which is the most biomechanically complex to perform, for me anyway.

Module 1 is P3 to impact

Module 2 is the same drill with footwork carpet drills

Module 3 is P4 to impact

The amount of post impact pivot required is almost shocking to me ….each drill properly done leaves you feeling quite knackered! I kept asking Lag about gymwork to get fitter etc…he said just do the drills, now I know why!

The shape and look of my golf swing itself is slowly changing to accommodate these new modules which are ghosting into my biomechanics as it were.

A good example of how far I have come is that although I have an actual playing handicap of 9, I was playing to more like about 14 handicap when I started the drills in March, on even an easy course. I had not had a great round in years, literally!

I played Merion two weeks ago while on a trip to the States, they are getting ready for the Walker Cup so the fairways are tight and the rough is the sort you are dead just 6 inches off the fairway, its lob wedge 20 yds out sideways stuff. I had been ‘promoted to module 3 two weeks earlier and had been drilling hard.

I had the best ballstriking round of my lifem full stop. Missed one fairway and because I am not a particularly long hitter, I was often hitting in from where Hogan would have been when he won there . I even hit from almost exactly the same spot as that memorable picture of his 2 iron to 18 to get into a playoff.

I shot 78 and my friend who is a scratch player there shot 77. Standard scratch score was 74.

While that may not sound particularly impressive to some of you, coming from a position where I was struggling to break 85 on easy courses to a viciously penal class track played from the back tees, I consider it to be a real defining moment in the impact of Lag's tuition for me and it was a nice reward for my hard work.

It was the equivalent in real terms of shooting maybe sub par on my home track which is nowhere near as difficult. In particular, the consistency and accuracy is improving. Yes, I weave between good days and bad days like everyone. This is golf, after all.

The difference is that I now know what my intentions are and I know how to do it, before if I had a good round I had no idea how to go about reproducing it, now I know the theory and also know the biomechanical actions necessary, its just a question of ingraining the modules into my game which will happen slowly over time.

Its tough stuff, the drills are very technical but the game becomes so much more enjoyable when you start hitting more good shots more consistently. I usually have a real nervous phobia about the first hole of a class track the first time I play it.

At Merion, first hole, driver 260 yds middle of the fairway, 8 iron 140 yds to 8 ft straight uphill, just missed the birdie putt, I blame the caddy! Lol!

Thanks Lag.

Sorry, that should read

Module 3 is P4 to P5

Lag
great stories indeed
nothing better to hear from the man in the front line

I noticed some names on that winners’ board
billy mayfair, david duval, tiger etc

but this guy ricky barnes …heard that he was a monster off the tees….strong bloke built like a US marine

whats’ of him now ?...last heard he was in the Asia or Jap tour ….?

btw just out of interest, have you so much as tried these newer technological advances eg 460cc driver heads, hybrids, Irons and see how they went vs the old school stuff ?

Ricky Barnes is on PGA Tour this year… finally got his PGA card after playing the Nationwide Tour the past 4 or 5 years
Good player…feel player….really strong… have more moves than a swiss army watch but has steadily improved the past few years after a struggle when he first turned pro….. made a bunch of cash in sponsorship when he first turned pro, being the next big thing, so still hasn’t had to struggle for a quid
Finished Nationwide top 25 last year

Junior,

Gotta be old school golf…
apples to apples mate..

Tiger and I have never played head to head.. the only possible comparison where we played the same course in the same event
was the Sun Bowl All Star event.. 10 years apart. 1985 – 1995
I doubt Tiger had a persimmon in his hands in 95.

211

As absurd as it may sound..
It's not my job to fear another player. Respect yes.. fear no.

Put us on a course like Pasa Tiempo, and I'd play him straight up for three or four rounds.

Tiger is not invincible.

Has he even won a professional event using persimmon?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Apples with Apples hey Lag? Yes not fear but respect? How about being realistic?

Okay apples with apples… You used persimmon, the rest of the field used? The same equipment I bet… Level playing field.

Tiger uses modern equipment, the rest of the field? Modern equipment… Level Playing field!

You both scored 211… Doesnt give us information about the conditions, the course and what was involved, where the pins were, where the tees were. The fact is on a level playing field for the time you both played the tournament he won, you didnt!

For being a fantastic ball striker you were a quarter finalist in the US Amateur, won several events, the most notable being the Windsor Charity classic, -17 (Good shooting!).

Tiger being a “dreadful” ball striker went on to win the US Amatuer 3 times, has 66 PGA Tour wins, 36 European Tour wins, 14 Major Championship wins (4 Masters incl -18, 4 PGA’s, 3 US Opens, 3 British Opens)

Both records achieved on level competition playing fields. Apples with Apples.

I find it arrogant to criticise someone who has achieved so much more. Would be like me saying “Gee I have hit it further than Zuback because I strike it better, I must be as good!” Bullsh-t, Zuback has won 5 world titles and even if I beat him head to head tomorrow, I have a long way to go before I could even mention my name in the same sentence! I dont fear him, but I dont have the arrogance to criticise someone who has achieved more than I probably ever will. Yeah the fields are heaps stronger now but he has the score on the board.

I have seen Tiger hit persimmons in practice…a few years back now. He hit them quite well at times…..but his misses with the persimmon was horrific….even worse than his misses that he does now. The ball went straight right or just nose dived left because of the bulge and roll of the face.
So….is that the swing or the club? Tiger is so good he would work it out…eventually….however the way the game is played now he can win with just a wedge and a putter so why does he really need to knuckle down and really work it out?.... He doesn't….hopefully next year when you can't be spinning shots back from rough and fliers are back in play… It will make some guys analyze their game a bit more and start making ballstriking head back a little more to pure ideas instead of bashing it anywhere.
As for the McEnroe tennis statement he is saying the same thing as Lag…… the top players would still work it out just like Federer or Sampras…..it's the poorer player that is being given money in todays world that would have difficulties… you certainly wouldn't be seeing double handed strokes from both sides like many of todays tennis pros do. Just like you wouldn't see guys trying to bash the hell out of a wooden headed driver.
That's what is going on….golf has become about power and putting, whereas it used to be about precision and fairways and greens in reg

This argument could go on forever because some people never played golf the way it was meant to be played and some people are chuffed that they hit the ball 20 yards farther with the new gear so think that is the way.
Best news yet……....improve your swing. Play better golf… It's that simple…. a new club isn't going to do it for you no matter what the commercials try to tell you… I would spend $400 on good lessons any day before i would spend $400 on a club

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Couldnt agree more, well put Showme…

Junior,

I retire to the fact you are not getting the point I am trying to make.
Very well…

KYC,

I hit a perimeter weighted iron (Ping Eye 2) in 1984. Ping sent
complimentary sets to all the major college programs over here.
Coach Holder at Oklahoma State embraced the idea, and our coach followed suit and demanded we all switch. I did for about 2 months.
I hit the ball about the same, better on my miss hits… although I am about 95 percent of the time on the sweetspot with the irons, so not really much difference. After a couple months I noticed I was not hitting the ball as well, and I didn’t think I could work that ball with the feel and precision I could with my Hogan blades. When I went back to them, I literally couldn’t hit them.. my swing had adjusted to the easier to hit clubs, and my swing had become far less precise. I was hitting the ball all over the face. When I went to the Ping again, I realized I just couldn’t feel center on the club.. so my brain just didn’t get the information to keep my swing focused on a tight sweetspot.

Of course I was playing everyday.. so practice was a given, and I decided right there, that I did not want that for my game.. I didn’t want to damage the golf swing I had worked so hard to obtain.

Back to the Hogans.

Coach wasn’t happy…. but I just refused to play the Pings. I silenced his concerns when I won the Conference Championship individual title.

I just see the new irons as just more of the same thing. Bigger heads, cavity.. I suppose the grooves are really the big issue. If I ever played again seriously, I would probably just have whatever is legal cut or tooled into a set of older heads I liked..

I did hit a modern driver just to see what it would do, and from what I could tell, I was hitting it about 40 yards farther than my favorite persimmon.

It was not a jumbo head, but it was 45 inches, 10.5 ounces, and
and I think 7 degrees or so.. and it just launched the ball ungodly distances. But with the extreme clubhead speeds I get with the light
heads, around 118 MPH… I can’t feel the club or the head.. the ball goes forever, but I really have no idea where it’s going. It’s such a foreign sensation in comparison to rest of my clubs.. meaning there is no gradual transition from the long irons into a fairway wood, and then to the driver. Lightweight is good science for launching the ball far with a driver, but I believe that lightweight heads are very poor science for irons.. yet alone the fact that I believe over time they will not properly load the muscles of the body to allow the proper control of the irons, in particular, distance control.

Again if I were to play on the modern tours again, I would have little choice but to hit one of these driving clubs. With the courses being
7400 yards and getting longer, there is not much choice.. your essentially forced into it.

It’s well known that I think these extra long courses are silly… and just prefer my golf on the great old school tracks. I like to hit all the irons in my bag during a round… and a nicely struck 250 to 270 yards persimmon driver feels good, and makes the course a fine challenge. I like to think a course should be played at a distance and with equipment, that makes par a respectable score. When you shoot under par, it should be a personal victory, not just expected because I’m flipping wedge into every hole.

I still believe that on the proper golf course, the old gear can beat the new gear. I’ll have another go at a modern event at some point with the old gear. . I still think it’s the Indian, not the arrow.

Maxfli Aussie Blade Alert for Lag

I think this is a late 80’s model….not 100% on that…just thought I’d point them out as I know you loved your old set

Some golden oldies

“Now I know why Tigers eat their young”

Lag, it may be worth you giving these a try….....

http://www.bridgestonegolf....

They claim to be the softest Urethane ball on the market. I’ve used them and liked ‘em but I wouldn’t think they are anywhere near as soft as the old balatas (but then nothing is).

SMTM I like to see a drive that starts low and rises, it is a thing of beauty

the greatest game ever played

Depends where you come from bud, if I see a drive rise or lift, I stop looking and tee up another as I know the spin rate is too high and I am not going to get max distance or control. Visually it looks good though I guess…

Junior, I used to watch the scratch markers of years gone by hit long irons where the ball took off low and rose into the sky to drop softly on the green. This was a common shot and had its own “sound”. I did a little bit of caddying for Jack Newton Jr way, way back and he also hit long irons this way (never woods though). Probably the most impressive shot in golf behind Norman off the tee in his prime.

that spin up rising shot doesn’t really happen anymore….the ball is not designed for it
The only way it happens now is mishit metalwoods… they spin up into orbit with a huge distance loss….and it never happens with an iron
Anyone who saw Norman in his prime knows what I am talking about. He used to compress that ball and squish it with his long clubs. It used to go about 10 feet in the air for 150 yards and then start to climb and fizz
It wasn’t anything like today’s high spinning shots. It was pure beauty and didn’t affect the distance it actually helped with it.

SMTM I like to see a drive that starts low and rises, it is a thing of beauty

the greatest game ever played

Depends where you come from bud, if I see a drive rise or lift, I stop looking and tee up another as I know the spin rate is too high and I am not going to get max distance or control. Visually it looks good though I guess…

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

backspin on a drive

http://forums.iseekgolf.com...

posted this in another part of the forum…..if you haven’t seen it Lag… I think you will like it

Boys, with irons you want that flight, high degrees of spin and you certainly want to see that little rise in the flight.

SMTM, you certainly can over spin a driver even with the new balls. Unless you are wanting to prevent run and release on a tee shot, a “rise” in the flight is something you never want to see.

Keeping the spin rate of a driver under 2500 rpm (depending on your ball speed) is crucial to getting a shot that penetrates through the air, particularly into the wind or in heavy cross breezes. The driver tradjectory should be flat like the flight of a dart. How high it travels is irrelevant as long as it doesnt rise. If your ball “lifts” in flight you can forget about getting a nice hot release at the end.

Just a note here in all fairness,

Winning long drive championships, and shaping shots with a driver into a fairway, working around doglegs, and positioning the tee shot accordingly to open up a pin tucked behind a bunker are completely different trains of thought…. and accordingly require completely different protocols for hitting a golf ball.

That’s a great article by Jack there Showme.

He certainly makes a lot of the same arguments and points that I think many more articulate students of the game can relate to.

I’m always puzzled a bit when I read such things, and of course even Tiger, who commented in a recent golf digest article that “If I were King, we would all be playing persimmons and balatas”.
Palmer, and I’m sure Norman would agree, I know Moe would! I have him caught on tape dissing modern gear even in 1987!

My point being, with all the money and influence these giants of the game have, why not do something about it?

How about putting on an event where players have to play the old stuff like what TRGA does. I’m sure with their endorsement of the event, it would be a smash, certainly to the media. It’s an easy sell to the media, The Golf Channel would love it.. even if it was not an official event, it would do wonders to raise the consciousness of the golfing public about the issue in a much bigger way than Showme,
Sevam1 and Lagpressure could ever do on 1000 and 1 internet forums!

Tiger makes a million dollars for changing the color of his shoe laces, and he’s getting how many millions to suffer through 16 hour flight to Australia later this year.

I just find it a bit disturbing to hear the gripping from these guys, and NO ACTION!

We launched a couple of Old School events, had prize money, secured a golf course and put together a decent field on a budget that probably would cover Jack, Arnie’s and Tiger’s dry cleaning bill for a month.

As much as I might complain about it, I am also in action mode, doing what I can with the resources that are available and whatever funding we can drum up, however a small part that might be.

If you love and embrace the new technology, then great.. my point
is, why not have a bit of integrity, and walk your talk.. if you don’t.

What if Tiger played 5 events with a persimmon driver? Could he still contend? What if he won? What a statement that would make.
It would be historic.

I think it’s great to play persimmon, and whatever level player you are, think how fun it would be to beat your playing mates with the old stuff. I went almost a whole year without anyone beating me with any gear, even for one round, until I lost my match in the finals of the SF Persimmon Open. Even scoring poorly at the US Open Q, I still beat 40 guys who were using modern gear. I think had I been hitting a balata ball I could have beat 40 more if not all of them.

There is a lot that can be done. Maves talks about it in his Hogan books, and vids, Vic Wilk has a weekly radio show and is often bringing up the issues, some of my students are playing persimmons if not just for the feedback they get to speed up their improvement.

I read an article recently about a guy in San Diego that is putting on Hickory events several times a year it apparently the movement on that level is taking off like crazy.

I think we as humans do have the capacity to at times, question our collective decisions about how technology should be handled… whether it’s nuclear proliferation, or the practicality of continuing to make and promote gas guzzling machines like SUV’s and Hummers.

I think a lot of things are being questioned right now..

If the grooves issue becomes a reactionary movement, and more restrictions are to come, who know how far things can be rolled back. It’s a step in the right direction, and if at some point in the history of the game, whether it be 20 or 50 years from now, there might very well be an asterisk put next to competitive golf records
from the titanium age.

New generations have a way of questioning the intentions and motives of previous generations. Sometimes it’s with admiration, but sometimes it’s with “what were they thinking?”

As much as anyone might believe they know how future historians will perceive this age, there’s quite a possibility that today’s assessment will not be that of the future.

Just a note here in all fairness,

Winning long drive championships, and shaping shots with a driver into a fairway, working around doglegs, and positioning the tee shot accordingly to open up a pin tucked behind a bunker are completely different trains of thought…. and accordingly require completely different protocols for hitting a golf ball.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag in all fairness we are talking to golfers who are just happy to find the fairway, golfers who need every piece of distance they can get so they are not under pressure with the rest of their game (not everybody likes hitting long irons and woods for their approach shots into par 4’s) and golfers who when they play in a strong breeze dont want to be blown all over the course!!

There would be twice as many golfers that would kill for 20 yards more to reach the corner of the dogleg, to hit 2 clubs less into that green, than there are hoping to open the green up for pins tucked behind bunkers. Most golfers I meet are simply happy hitting the green in two shots!

has anyone (of good standing like lag and showme) written, communicated or even tried to with the Kings and authritories etc (USPGA, R&A, Tiger etc) who controls, runs this game re: Persimmon and those other old school gear in at least allowing and approving optional (official) games with these older type imlpements
eg teeing off from an orange tee contesting with those teeing off from the ‘usual’ tees with modern implements ?

Interesting you should mention that..
The very first thing I did after not playing golf for 15 years and then seeing the crazy modern gear was write to David Rickman of the R and A.

Mr. Rickman was at the forefront in the battle with Ping over the square grooves, and other subsequent lawsuits. He is still in the driver’s chair
as the head guy on the subject at the R and A.
Grooves controversy, then and now!

Mr, Rickman and I corresponded twice last year after I voiced my opinions to him about the issues. I commended him for his earlier efforts to uphold the integrity of the game in the initial fight against Ping and obliviously arrogant Karsten Solheim.

I voiced my concerns and opinions as diplomatically as I could, and Mr Rickman was kind enough to reply. However, his response as of late sounded like he was now one of them. It reminded me of the 1970’s sci fi classic “The Omega Man” when only Charlton Heston was the last man standing amongst an ever growing converted population of white eyed zombies who preached against the evils of technology that caused more or less the end of the world. (golf being the reversed scenario)

The tone of his correspondence was very cautious and supportive of
the changes to the game. I found it completely absurd that a man who fought the good fight so hard, could now be preaching the advantages of making the game easier in any way possible.

It was beyond disappointing.

He did send me a congratulatory e mail when I won the TGRA Las Vegas Classic Club Open last Nov.