TRGA that is…

As a side note, the thing I found interesting in Jack’s article is he mentions something I’ve said here many, many times:

The new gear doesn’t help amateurs near as much as pro’s. That’s a simple truth. If a guy can’t hit the inside of a ball with a 45” driver, what chance does he have with a 46.75” driver? Zero.

But he tries, maybe catches one or two ‘good ones’ in the store, buys it. Comes over the top at the course, and it’s on ebay… on to the next magical solution of the week…

Not to add fuel to the fire, but…..
http://www.golfdigest.com/g...

Campbell averaged 291 yards with his current setup. When he switched to the old Byron Nelson persimmon driver but kept the current ball, his average driver was 37 yards shorter. When he switched to the Tour Balata and the old driver, he hit that combo 44 yards shorter.

But jumping above all the data is one clear benefit that has nothing to do with ball or titanium clubhead: Campbell simply swings the modern driver faster. His swing speed with the old Byron Nelson driver, a 43-inch steel shafted model, hovered around 106 miles per hour. Switch to the modern graphite shaft and the swing speed jumped to 113 miles per hour. That speed increase could account for some 15 to 20 yards of improvement all by itself, independent of springier faces and lower-spinning balls.

swing speed has dramatically changed. For example, the USGA swing robot now functions at a speed of 120 miles per hour. More importantly, though, the average swing speed on tour is now 111.5 miles per hour, or faster than the fastest tour speeds were 30 years ago. In fact, 133 players on the PGA Tour now have an average swing speed greater than 109 miles per hour.

“The reduction of swing speed is also not surprising. Compared to modern drivers, the wooden club is probably about two inches shorter, about two ounces heavier, and has such a small head and sweet spot that great golfers have to slow down their swings. ‘Hitting it on the screws’ used to really mean something.”

Rugge believes that current research suggests that the ball need not be singled out as the root cause of distance in the modern game.

“Our testing showed me that the majority of PGA Tour distance increases attributable to equipment have likely come from changes in the driver, not the ball,”

isolating the effect to either club or ball seems impossible. Rather, today’s club-ball system seems to exceed the sum of its parts.

This is exactly what I have been saying, because everyone wants to blame the golf ball, but it’s not the golf ball nearly as much as it is the driver itself. Extra long lightweight shafts and heads allow for the increase in clubhead speeds. The huge heads allow the players to swing out of their shows and still make substantial contact.

Like the article said…

Hitting it on the screws’ used to really mean something.”

It absolutely should… and the game suffers because the golf swing suffers.. The modern golf swings would be horrible if they had to go back and play the traditional gear. The old swings would have less trouble hitting the new stuff, but the new guys would have a horrific time hitting the old stuff. Absolutely.

We are certainly seeing more and more articles and attention being paid to the issues at hand.. and I think more and more people are starting to see the absurdities that the modern “technological rage” has been imposing upon the game on so many levels.

On the Colonial…

I watched the last few holes…

Tim Clark is leading… also he is leading in driving accuracy for the week..

Second in Putting.. should mean you’re right there and he is..

He missed the fairway on 14 and could only advance the ball half way to the hole.. in other words, it was a penalty as it should be.

On 18 he hits it dead left, and again, has to pitch out. Dead.
He was penalized.

These guys are tearing the course up because it’s playing absurdly short with the modern drivers and pool table greens. However, there are trees on the course, and missing the fairways means a penalty…
as it should..

Where’s Tiger?

took the week off?

It would have been interesting to see him play an event where he has to hit it in the fairway.

I heard he won’t play Pebble Beach anymore until they tidy up the greens to his liking..

Seems he’s avoiding the historic courses these days..

Tiger skips, Riviera,
skips, Pebble
skips Harbor Town,
skips Colonial

The last of the tight courses with trees, the last of the traditional old style courses, wants nothing to do with them apparently..
I’ve heard him comment on how golf should be persimmon and balatas and blades and all that.. but I don’t see him supporting
the classic historical events that would cater to a more traditional game of golf, even with the new gear.

Just an observation.

Lag,

I just got home from the range, but tonight Golf Channel is replaying the European tournament coverage. A french guy Cevear (I think it’s spelled) is the shortest hitter in the field, with only a 100MPH swing speed.

I think he was leading yesterday, and was number one in fairways. They keep talking about how straight he is. I’m going to watch the finish tonight.

I guess when you are the world number 1 (and are number 1 by streets) you can pick and choose your events, can keep a focus on staying healthy (by not overcommitting yourself), may choose to spend time with your new family, rather focus on major events or choose a schedule that is to your liking.

Being so dominant for so long, I guess he has not much he feels he needs to prove.

Tiger went off the radar for a swing change a few years ago. What was this about? Did it change his driving stats?

I hazard a guess to say Tiger’s life is a pretty busy one and he does what is needed to achieve his goals for the year and that probably doesn’t include the extra hours to match Norman off the tee in his prime. As has been mentioned in this thread, if another Norman comes along some time soon Tiger (and others) may again go off the radar for a ball striking overhaul.

Which begs the question, are there any up and comers with Norman-like potential?

I know we are all saying the driver distances have changed dramatically, but what has happened to the iron yardages?
Have they also increased? I imagine so.

Granted there are many variables with the changes in lofts that OEM’s create now, but does anyone have some data on the changes in irons??? That would surely be an indicator of how far the tour players are hitting it now.

dcee

Interesting you should mention that..
The very first thing I did after not playing golf for 15 years and then seeing the crazy modern gear was write to David Rickman of the R and A.

Mr. Rickman was at the forefront in the battle with Ping over the square grooves, and other subsequent lawsuits. He is still in the driver's chair
as the head guy on the subject at the R and A.
Grooves controversy, then and now!

Mr, Rickman and I corresponded twice last year after I voiced my opinions to him about the issues. I commended him for his earlier efforts to uphold the integrity of the game in the initial fight against Ping and obliviously arrogant Karsten Solheim.

I voiced my concerns and opinions as diplomatically as I could, and Mr Rickman was kind enough to reply. However, his response as of late sounded like he was now one of them. It reminded me of the 1970's sci fi classic ’ÄúThe Omega Man” when only Charlton Heston was the last man standing amongst an ever growing converted population of white eyed zombies who preached against the evils of technology that caused more or less the end of the world. (golf being the reversed scenario)

The tone of his correspondence was very cautious and supportive of
the changes to the game. I found it completely absurd that a man who fought the good fight so hard, could now be preaching the advantages of making the game easier in any way possible.

It was beyond disappointing.

He did send me a congratulatory e mail when I won the TGRA Las Vegas Classic Club Open last Nov.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

thanks Lag for that insider sharing

but it sounds like Mr Rickman …got very very tired after all these years and decided to throw in the towel (clubs) with brickwalls after brickwalls…i fancy
you may well be Mr Heston…the last man standing !

With all the sidetracking about equipment, modern gear vs vintage, changes in golf courses, grooves, and so forth.. the point that I really
am trying to make here is that the biggest casualty “for me” is the
eroding and deterioration of the golf swing itself.

Both Showme and Arnie kind enough to send me some vintage footage, of early coverage of events such as the Masters going back to 1960, and all kinds of other gems.. seeing Hogan play in the Masters back then was really wonderful, as well as guys like Demaret, Sarazen, Snead, even though they were in the twilight
years of their careers. The swings were so much more advanced back then in a dynamic way.

As a teacher and a student of the swing.. I am most concerned with the form itself… not how it “looks” but the dynamic qualities of the golf swing. How it produces, generates acceleration, and a controlled strike upon the golf ball.

Maybe I am a bit jaded by spending as much time as I did with Moe Norman in the late 80’s and seeing first hand with my own two eyes
VERY WIDE OPEN, what the potential for a human can be striking a golf ball in a most pure form of dynamic motion and function.

I will be the first to admit I am much more enamored with a pure striker than a short game wizard. I certainly don’t discredit the ability of the scrappy player who up and downs it all day and seems to make everything… or the modern putting wizards of today that are averaging 27 putts a round and averaging 24 putts a round on the
winning weeks.

The thing is this.. a lot of those skills particularly putting depend upon perfectly manicured greens… or other greenside conditions,
smooth bunkers, consistent rough and so forth.

Therefore, the skill becomes dependent upon another condition being present.. whereas with the ball striking, I can enjoy the strike
anywhere I can get a club on it… even my back deck.

The ball striking aspect of the game also offers a much more vast array of options than say putting would. A low fade, high, soft, floating, the draw, the hook around the corner, into the wind, down wind, cross wind, various lies, shaping the shot into the green and so on.. while with putting, the parameters for line and speed are much tighter, and unless you are on tour type pure greens, the feedback can be extremely unreliable.

Moe used to tell me that he owned the ball while it was in the air, but on the greens anything could happen. Of course the greens weren’t as good back then.

But getting back to the point, I think it’s sad we won’t ever see great golf swings again, because in many ways, the equipment simply will not allow for it to evolve. The lightweight 46 inch 10 ounce drivers with large heads will never give the brain the type of feedback necessary to learn to strike a golf ball at such an optimal level of
precision, power, and balance. The lightweight clubs will not load into the muscles correctly and as Bio would agree, promote over acceleration issues. This is why Hogan stayed with heavy gear his whole career.. he know this.. it wasn’t about trying to hit it as far as possible, it was about hitting it as far and straight as possible.

After watching more vintage footage, I can see it so clearly in the ground work and foot action of the past greats compared to even todays stars.. The ball striking is not at a level it once was, because the swings have deteriorated to a point the mediocrity is now the norm, and all the attention is now on short game.

I believe a proper golf swing will hold up under pressure. Seeing the event today with Clark hitting wild drives on 14 and 18 might be evidence on just how difficult it was for him. The event was his, and he was leading by two, and I was glad to see that bogeys resulting from the errant tee shots. He was obviously swinging quite well because he was leading the week in fairways hit. His iron play seemed good enough, but I could only surmise that he just couldn’t feel the driver head enough to really have the kind of control he needed to just put something out there in play. These weren’t tricklers off the fairway,
they were mis guided golf swings.. resulting in one way right, and the other way left. I suppose that when the heat is on, the light drivers just get harder and harder to really control properly.

It would be interesting to hear his take on it someday..

It was an interesting day..

I must say that today was the first day I actually witnessed the modern game of golf..

I’ve made it well know that I still play persimmon and the old style of golf. I like the look of the vintage clubs, I like the feel, the way they play and I like the sound.

Most importantly, the golf course I play Mare Island, one of the hidden gems of California if not this entire country. If Mare was not 20 minutes from my house, I would not be typing these words here tonight. I simply would not be playing golf.

I am so fortunate to have such a wonderful ball strikers test, that sits on the SF Bay, and forces me to hit every beautiful blade iron I carry in my bag each round.

Another round with Mr Barkow.. this time he brought out his son Adam.
Adam is 21 and one of the top collegiate players around the area here.. go figure, Al Barkow teaches you to play golf from the day you’re born!

Adam of course is a fine player and hitting the modern driver. His irons were very traditional looking heads, just slightly bigger.

In US Open Q I also played with a young college kid, but I refused to look at him drive the ball. I knew it could be a distraction so I just turned my head and trying to hum a tune in my head so I wouldn’t even here the sound of it.

Today however, I wanted to see Adam swing, because I am sure it will be a topic of conversation in the weeks and months to come as Al and I have been playing a lot of golf lately.

Adams drive off the first tee was just unreal. I hadn’t seen a golf ball leave the face of a golf club like that since Greg Norman was driving it like that in the late 80’s when I played the Australian Tour. The hang time on the golf ball I think was an extra three seconds in the air. The first hole was dead into the wind.. I hit a fair drive leaving me a 7 iron approach. Adam flipped in a SW.

In the 1980’s there was only one Greg Norman who could drive the ball like that. I presume today their are thousands.

As the round went on.. it was wedges all day for Adam. Other than the long par threes which he was one club longer, and don’t know where he had his lofts set at, but I think it was just lighter clubs, not much difference between us. There is no shape to the drives, just high piercing cannon shots that even on his miss hits, the ball would seem to fall straight and lose it’s curve at the apex. I got my first look at how the modern ball is flying straighter.. I can assure that if some of those miss hits were with a persimmon and a balata ball, a few of those drives would have continued to follow a curving path into some very dark and scary places at The Mare.

His putting stroke was pure, the whole game looked like a Tiger prodigy. He said that he spends most of his time putting. I can see why.

I had to think to myself, is this really what I would want golf to be like? I of course I could bomb it like that too… and I have no doubt that I could hit those cannon shots with one of those clubs as well..

But I really think that what I enjoy most about a great course like Mare is hitting all the different irons into those tiny difficult sloping greens. Trying to position the ball under the hole with a mid iron.

Today my approaches looked like this.

7 iron
9 iron
3 iron
Wedge
Chip just short on 5 par (birdie)
7 iron
8 iron
4 iron
5 iron (birdie)
Wedge
6 iron
7 iron
Wedge into the cup for a 2 (eagle) from 110. A real eagle!
8 iron
6 iron
8 iron
8 iron
3 iron

I drove with a 2 iron several times, and hit my 2 wood on the par five from the fairway..

I used every single club in my bag. 2-SW, two woods and a putter.

Now if I hit a modern driver, I like Adam would hit wedge into every single hole on the golf course. I just don’t think that is the kind of golf I would ever want to play.

This golf course would have to be over 7400 yards for it to force me to use every club in my bag if I was driving the ball 40 yards farther.

It was quite a shocking thing to see today…
and how the course would be a joke to the modern kids playing
a competition.

I felt like a NASCAR in the Indy 500

but somehow we both shot 73

Did Adam comment on your clubs/approach to the game Lag, or was he just choosing wedges ?

Slightly off topic, but not by much!
A quote from one of the most famous names in golf (slightly edited and shortened so as to not give his name away!) talking about the ball although it would be accurate if it refered to drivers as well!

“I am a strong believer in limiting the flight of the ball. Pleasure in obtaining length is only a matter of relativity. One got quite as much fun from driving the old ball 20 yards further than ones opponent as today one gets gets in hitting the ball 20 yards further.
One of the difficulties with which we have to contend is that any limitation of the flight of the ball is certain to be unpopular for some time after it’s inauguration. Golfers would dislike to find that they were unable to carry a bunker they were formerly able to do. They would feel as though they had suddenly grown old.
Today, many are trying to obtain a temporary advantage by buying the latest far-flying ball on the market. It is often suggested that we have got to the limit of flight of a golf ball. I do not believe it. as there is no limit to science!”

Can anyone tell me who said this? I will post it Wed night or Thursday (AEST)

Sorry if this is too off topic for the purists.

Regards,

Pete

Thats a golf trivia type question Pete

A quote for Pete…

“There is no place in aviation for error. Drivers just get in a car and go, whereas a pilot has a pre flight routine that he checks and adjusts as necessary. Golfers are like drivers, but should be more like pilots”

Homer Kelly.

Good quote guru, except a professional pilot does not adjust his preflight. He/She trys to do things the same everytime. ie DON’T get out of routine!!

I guess you are right, Waffle iron. The answer is;

Alister MacKenzie (The Spirit of St Andrews) a collection of notes from the great Doctor (approx 1935)

The more things change, the more they stay the same!! People forget the game is meant to be a game!

Regards,

Pete

You didn’t have to tell the answer, thought it was Nicklaus but too eloquent

Good quote guru, except a professional pilot does not adjust his preflight. He/She trys to do things the same everytime. ie DON'T get out of routine!!

I guess you are right, Waffle iron. The answer is;

Alister MacKenzie (The Spirit of St Andrews) a collection of notes from the great Doctor (approx 1935)

The more things change, the more they stay the same!! People forget the game is meant to be a game!

Regards,

Pete

Foooorrrreeee!!

True. Think Homer meant adjusting the fuel load for different destinations – rather like changing what loading patterns we need to get the ball to do its job.

Scott Gummers book just out on Homers quest is a fun read.

Lag,

Why did he shoot 73? You say he putted very well. Did this mean his par 3’s were sub-par?

At times I have to admit, I wished I could drive 290 yards. Actually, many times. I played this week with a guy that hit two Par 4 greens with his driver. One was within 12 feet of the pin.

It’s hard for me not to covet that… I mean I am playing modern gear.

I don’t know if anyone caught Golf Channel’s “Planet Jack”. It was about Nicklaus and his course design in China and around the world in general.

At one point I was quite surprised to hear Jack say, ” I don’t like the way the game is played anymore….. There is too much long bombing and wedging in,,,, The game I played is totally different”

He went on a good 2-3 minutes about how he dislikes what modern gear has done to the game! I’m not surprised this is his personal feeling, however I was very surprised to hear him say it on T.V. and so… ‘matter of factly’ considering his own Nicklaus golf pushes severe game improvement gear…. I don’t think he even makes any player’s type of gear at all.

The correct quote is.
They are are playing a game I am not familiar with anymore

In the same way that Prot keeps us updated with his progress, I thought I would share some feedback having completed three months as one of Lag’s students…

Module 1 was a total jolt to my system, the concept of the hands firing from a deep 4.30 position was most definitely very foreign to me and it is only until the last few days that I have really embraced this concept…as Lag eloquently puts it…having the club way open like this ‘entices’ the hands to fire hard.

Module 2 introduced the concept of dynamic footwork and some classic examples thereof…must say that while I grasp and can reproduce these concepts, I still have a long way to go to really master this stuff, would be interesting to hear some feedback about any other students on this.

Module 3 adds in the post impact to finish move…this module has really helped me to build a solid framework for what the intention of my swing is. There is something safe and reassuring about knowing where you are heading as opposed to making it up for every shot you hit!

As Prot says, its not all a bed of roses, every day you add a little, sometimes you need to backtrack a bit and in fact I have found real value in revisting module 1 and 2 while I work on 3 because they mean so much more to me now.

In terms of ballstriking, the trend is definitely upwards, I feel like I have been let into a secret society of ‘advancedballstriking’.

Just a quick word about Lag, he is easily the most knowledgeable instructor I have ever had and believe me I have tried a few! He has a keen eye for spotting and correcting errors in the drills, its difficult to do the drills perfectly, for me at least, but the best thing is that the ball loves the end product the better you can do them.

Right now, I am working really hard on that P3 to P5 move with the 4.30 line being very important at P3. I can feel my golf swing changing in character slowly, I am becoming a hitter with really really ‘mean’ intent..that deliberate aggressive attacking move….

Would love to hear any thoughts from fellow students..

In terms of ballstriking, the trend is definitely upwards, I feel like I have been let into a secret society of ‘advancedballstriking'.

That’s funny, but so do I. I understand what you mean here. For me it’s like there’s a lot of knowledge that most instructor’s don’t even have a clue about.

For instance, locally I finally found one person who even knew of The Golfing Machine. Everyone here teaches some form of swinging or another (not that they even realize this).

I think I’ve been doing Lag’s drills since… last October/November. So about 7+ months. And I STILL revisit every one of them.

It’s like a multiphase project though. I find many times the mechanics do not stick on the course, because it’s not how the brain works… but going back and forth, back and forth… it starts to pay off.

I was stuck at my ‘low round’ score. Last year I hit the same score (nothing to brag about, trust me) about 12 times… and could not beat it. We’re still just ending our first real month of playable weather… I’ve beat it 4 times now.

There some things I have to figure out on my own. Trouble shooting is like the ultimate phase in my mind. When you know what you’re ‘go to faults’ are, and then figure out how to fix them… it’s a golden moment I find.

I have been VERY frustrated at times. Lag knows this too… Sometimes I imagine Lag with a large stick with a rusty nail sticking out of it, and I feel like Frankenstein being beaten into something I don’t quite understand. Is that bad? LOL

LOL! No thats not bad, thats honest!

The way I look at it is like this..I have been hitting the ball in a misguided fashion for the last twentyfive years. Its got me as low as 7 but mainly by smoke and mirrors and good putting days.

I have never owned a swing that could reliably see me through an entire round and I still don’t. But there are enough clues to suggest that I am getting closer, solid play on difficult windy courses etc..

Apart from the more consistent play and the odd memorable low score, there is something going on thats more important to me and thats the quality and sound of some of my shots, its starting to surprise me and my playing partners.

With regard to my faults, I am taking an opposite view to you, rather than addressing them, I am focussing on doing the drills and incorporating those moves in my full swing because my theory is that this will wash all that bad stuff out…

The other thing is that I bug the hell out of Lag with questions when I get stuck and he loves going deeper into the answers, anyway I am sure you know that.

Keep at it Prot, for me understanding the drills /concepts is key to improving.

I haven’t quite progressed to going “all persimmon”, but I am carrying a persimmon 3 and 5 wood now in lieu of any hybrids or titanium fairway woods. My driver is still titanium, but 385 cc’s and with some lead tape on it to get the weight up. Lag’s “goal” (not sure if that’s the right term) is to qualify for the US Open with the older gear…... I want to try and win a local amateur event with it. I often use a persimmon driver during my range sessions now as I think it keeps things pure and provides the most feedback. I just need to get the swing stronger so I can get a little more distance out of the persimmon driver.

Our regular game consists of 10 to 15 players and most have handicaps that hover around scratch. There are lots of side bets and trash-talking among this crowd, and it can be a ruthless bunch but very good-natured. I tend to be the one that likes to talk swing theory and equipment and most of the group loves to chide me for it, but I welcome it. On Sunday, I hit a persimmon 5-wood from about 215 yards out to 30 feet and 2-putted for birdie. One of my buddies who was playing in my group referred to it as a “persimmon birdie” the rest of the day. I had the chance to use the 3-wood for my 2nd shot on a par 5 later in the round. I caught it a little on the heel and it started left and cut back to the middle. I mentioned to the same guy that the ball flight was probably the result of the “gear-effect” of that 3-wood and he was like “what the hell is gear effect?!”

We tried to hold a persimmon/blade event late last year, but the weather was nasty and limited our participation. But, to a man, everyone who played loved it and were somewhat surprised at what they could do with the older equipment. We’ll do it again soon.

Robbo

Thanks for the kind words..
Sounds like things are coming along ….as of course they will.

Change is tough, but I find good drills that are based upon good science, done repetitively and religiously is the most unobtrusive way
to approach swing changes.

Like Dart says, I don’t think anyone is teaching anything new.. I like to think the only thing I am really offering is a ticket onto a high speed bullet train to a better fundamentally correct swing that will at some point… feel simpler, much easier to understand and offer the student the ability to fix it themselves. I truly believe the muscles in the body respond quicker in their development to the various resisting force drills that we do, than just pounding thousands of lightweight golf balls that don’t offer such resistance.

Nothing new.. only LONG FORGOTTEN!

Yesterday I was reading excerpts from Barkow’s interview with Henry Picard, who was one of the top players in the 1930’s and of course those who know, helped out a young Ben Hogan with lessons and was able to get him into several tournaments he would not have been able to get into himself. Picard worked on Hogan’s grip, and two weeks later Hogan won his first tour event. Followed quickly by his second.. The rest of course is history.

Hogan thought so highly of Picard that he dedicated his first book “Power Golf” to Henry Picard.

The thing that I found so interesting reading Picard yesterday, was a paragraph were he was talking about how when he teaches. The first thing he does is assess a players ability to rotate the golf club in a counter clockwise fashion into impact. It was such a striking comment as my students would know, because this is exactly what we work on in the very first module. So here is a guy that was teaching this over 70 years ago! NOTHING NEW!

Picard would figure out how strong a student was with his rotational skills and then make swing adjustments accordingly to that protocol.

While watching the 1960 Masters, there was a sequence where it showed most all the players hitting off the first tee, one right after another. Just incredible, and the golf swings were all FLAT. Then comes Nicklaus, and they comment about this new sensation with the COMPLICATED GOLF SWING! It was very upright and strange at the time. No one understood it.

But what Jack had was a special ability few have.. the innate ability to score. It’s certainly not ball striking. It’s not easy to pinpoint or to easily understand.

But we see it with Tiger..

take a quick look at this…

Total Driving 195th
Driving accuracy 148th
Greens in Reg 110th
Putting average 61st

SCORING AVERAGE #1

It’s quite remarkable.

And this is what Nicklaus brought to the game… that sixth sense ability to post a score, that seems to defy both visual and statistical logic.

The art of fine ball striking, and the art of scoring. Two different worlds.

The way I look at it is like this..I have been hitting the ball in a misguided fashion for the last twentyfive years. Its got me as low as 7 but mainly by smoke and mirrors and good putting days.

I have never owned a swing that could reliably see me through an entire round and I still don't. But there are enough clues to suggest that I am getting closer, solid play on difficult windy courses etc..

Apart from the more consistent play and the odd memorable low score, there is something going on thats more important to me and thats the quality and sound of some of my shots, its starting to surprise me and my playing partners.

With regard to my faults, I am taking an opposite view to you, rather than addressing them, I am focussing on doing the drills and incorporating those moves in my full swing because my theory is that this will wash all that bad stuff out…

Aiguille, I think you have encapsulated the way I feel about my current quest for golf swing improvement. It’s great to hear from others thinking like me. I RARELY encounter a fellow player genuinely trying to improve their golf swing through research and trial and error – most are content to hit a 1,000 balls at the range or play 5 days a week. Sure, they should improve their scores but will they “ever own a swing that could reliably see them through an entire round”? I doubt it.

You have the distinct advantage of having a world-class coach in Lag. My coach, while good, is still a little too formula driven so now I have had to progressed to the “impact fix” by myself – and Lag, Guru, Dart, Showme and others have been an invaluable reference. I sent my coach an e-mail about impact fix and still waiting for a reply as I don’t think he’s in to this. He once told me not to be concerned about FLW as a concept. I use him mainly for posture, set up, course management and diagnosing problems I can’t shake – and he does this stuff well.

Keep up the comments re Lag’s ability to coach.Keep picking apart his mind. My old coach in Sydney would never discuss “why”, just do it (but I went from 23 to 9 in 6 months – and got divorced! so he can’t have been too bad).

OK…..I don’t know if Lag has pockets in the pants he is currently wearing, but I will piss in them too.
I have dealt with all the gurus of the past 25 years in a roundabout way….by true lessons….......impromptu talk…...........round table discussion….............ad lib…....serious brain picking…....drunken blabber…...... and the conclusion is this

LAG…...... knows more about the golf swing and what really makes it function and how to achieve it than anyone I have ever met
Full stop….....
Case dismissed !!!!!!

You guys don’t know just how lucky you are….

I’ll blow some smoke and be the bookend on the other end of the skill spectrum from ShowMe—I started up with Lag after finding this forum in around-about way and thought I’d take a chance. I love the game, but hardly ever get the opportunity to play. Of anything, I think that has been a huge benefit in the sense that I don’t have the distraction of constantly measuring whether the process is working through playing or range time. There is no doubt to contend with. There is no frustration.

I get the drills. I do the drills. I try to master the drills. We move on. Lag says “you’ll have a hook.” I think, ok, sure, whatever – not in the sense that I didn’t believe him—just that it didn’t matter all that much to me b/c it wasn’t going to affect my daily game. I was not able to actually hit a ball until the middle of M2—sure enough, hook city. Success! Two months prior, I would have been on the verge of tossing clubs. This time, I had a smile.

To be candid (not that I wouldn’t be otherwise), I was a little apprehensive about the fact that I know zippy about TGM other than what I’ve gleaned from my reading here. But Lag put me at ease and he’s been true to his word. Needless to say, I’m enjoying the journey and already feel semi-enlightened. I get to do something productive with my game on a daily basis even though I can’t hit balls—I like the power yoga reference Lag made—and ShowMe’s comments only reaffirm what a good choice I made.

I’m a chopper, so take this with a grain, but each step has been eye-opening. My only advice for would-be students is to study each of the modules—don’t just watch them—each phrase and point of reference seems to have a purpose.

OK Lag, this guy’s swing has had a few changes in the past year including better posture, alignment and hip “bump”. He has also recently tried to incorporate impact fix and the flat left wrist.

When I watch him I think his backswing is fast and short (it used to be long, wristy and loopy), his club head on takeaway is not on plane and his head moves laterally, particularly with the driver.

However, his handicap is coming down without any attention to his short game and he hits the ball with a nice draw and is above average in length on all clubs (as compared to other weekend warriors).

I won’t identify him to viewers but I’m sure he’d like to know if his swing is a long way from TGM principles – he watches this site like a hawk without ever posting. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=channel

For a little bloke with a little backswing he watches the ball for 28 minutes

Read an interesting story about Henrik Stenson and how he has rebuilt his swing.

Some quotes from his coach, Peter Cowan below. I don’t know what principles of the golf swing he coaches, but what he has to say about Stenson sounds very much like a lot I have picked up from this thread.

“He needed to understand why his mechanics were breaking down. Anyone can win on hand-eye coordination and manipulation and that is what Henrik has done. So his good shots were fine; it was the bad shots that were a real problem.

“We started again basically, rebuilding the whole swing. He didn’t know how it worked. It was like lifting the bonnet on a car and looking at the engine and not really knowing what you were looking at.

“He needed a swing that would stand up under pressure. It is the hardest thing I’ve ever done as a teacher, but he wanted to do it, which is a prerequisite. He was prepared to do whatever it took to get the job done.”

Lag/SMTM
What are your thoughts about Brian Manzella,s D-Plane Ball flight theory. He basically says that ball flight is controlled 80% by clubface and 20 % by swing path.
http://www.brianmanzella.co...

Rather what Homer said. Brian has coined a phrase here so to speak.

Does Homer say something different about how swing path and clubface affect starting direction and spin?

OK guys…I felt it really properly for the first time yesterday. Over the last three days I had begun to really put the three modules together in my swing and I was starting to hit some real quality iron shots right at the stick with a noticeably more powerful flight.

However, I was still struggling with the driver and in particular was not timing the cutting it left feel at all. Almost like the whole swing got stuck at P4. Lag advised me that I needed to work harder with the module 3 element and I just got down to that.

The last hole we played last night is a 420 yd uphill all the way, typically I have about 180 yds in, last night I totally compressed the ball off the tee, it was an otherworldly feeling of compression and accuracy, the ball went dead straight and I knew that it was going to be longer than my usual hit. The fairway is about 20 yds above the tee so its a blind shot effectively and I could not see where it had finished. I still couldn’t see it when I climbed the incline, it was 50 yds past everyone else.

I was fully 45 yds past my biggest ever previous drive on this hole smack bang in the middle of the fairway. Lag thinks its because I held the flex all the way to V5. Any other students experience something similar, maybe just once getting a glimpse of a shot that you definitely could not hit before? That raw power excited me but it was the sense of a really deep compression of the ball going laser straight that interested me.

If I am honest, I can’t even begin to explain how I did it. I know my intentions were to really accelerate the club from P3 to P5, cutting it left hard from P3 to P4. Lag thinks that having done it once, you know its in there in the tank and will be easier to do again.

Wonder if the hitting fairy will still be with me tomorrow? Anybody else trying Lag’s methods experiencing anything similar, I know that there are some accomplished and even world class players among his students, would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Weetbix: Chpt 2. 2-B, 2-c-0, et al, 2-d-0 and 2-d-1

aiguille,

Maybe it just hit a sprinkler head!

But really, it’s a good sign when things like that happen, and that is really how it works.. you’ll get these glimpses, and sometimes amazing feelings of great breakthroughs… then they will seem to be gone, and then you’ll find it again, and over time those moments tend to happen more often.

It’s all about holding shaft flex as you know. That way you can get the power increase through compression and not have to sacrifice in the accuracy department.

I don’t care if it’s modern gear, super long courses and such, I’ll take a laser straight hitter of the golf ball any day over a one dimensional velocity junkie when it comes to writing in the numbers on the scorecard.

Keep it up!

Whitednj,

I think your friend’s swing is quite a clever move. Whether he understands it or not, he is applying one of my biggest concepts quite effectively, and that is not to load into P3 with more than your capacity to fire.

It’s a hitters action, and I like that, and he’s smart to swing that way given the limited range of motion he constricts his HANDS to..

The disadvantage would simply be that he is giving up the fabulous advantages of playing from a true low point, so some typical compensations have to be made. Not hard to do..

I sure like it a lot better than the guys I see trying to fake a lot of lag angle on the downswing.

That swing will beat the pants of a lot of people.

Macs,

I looked at the pic and I would say that that would feel about right for players who are trying to hit extreme hooks or slices.

However, there are more sophisticated ways of shaping the golf ball
without changing your basic swing plane in relation to the body.

terrys,

Regardless of what people think about swing theory and who to take lessons from…

The golf ball only cares about the impact dynamics that are delivered to it. That’s it.

aiguille,

Maybe it just hit a sprinkler head!

But really, it's a good sign when things like that happen, and that is really how it works.. you'll get these glimpses, and sometimes amazing feelings of great breakthroughs… then they will seem to be gone, and then you'll find it again, and over time those moments tend to happen more often.

It's all about holding shaft flex as you know. That way you can get the power increase through compression and not have to sacrifice in the accuracy department.

I don't care if it's modern gear, super long courses and such, I'll take a laser straight hitter of the golf ball any day over a one dimensional velocity junkie when it comes to writing in the numbers on the scorecard.

Keep it up!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

lol!

Yes, maybe, hadn’t thought of that…....could explain everything.

but then again at my course, there aren’t too many sprinkler heads around because there is a giant one in the sky that usually works really well every day! lol!

Aiguille,
I’m also one of Lags students and as Lag has said happens, I too have gone through the exhilaration and despondency during the modules.
I was very much a swinger so it has been a huge learning curve for me. I have gone from shooting par 3 times on the good weeks to shooting mid 80’s on the bad ones.
I even got so shitty after not breaking 80 for 13 consecutive rounds I was gonna give up the lessons, but after speaking to Lag, I have hung on.
In my case it is due to uncontrollable hooking of my driver. It’s better, but not good yet.
I don’t know about Lag’s other students, but being a swinger and being a lefty playing right-handed, I have this terrible sense of a loss of control by handing my swing over to the right side of my body.
I go from very dominant left sided pull the club feelings on one day to very strong right sided push the club feelings on the next. I feel like I’m having to learn to use a pen right-handed.
I wonder if that’s what an amputee feels like with the ghost sensations form the lost limb?!?

Golfur66,

Thats a really curious and interesting observation.

I can’t say that I even knew which camp I fell into…probably switting. Like Lag says, its really dangerous to mis the two modalities particularly through the hitting zone.

The cutting it left or pulling it out of orbit feel is crucial (for me) to understanding Lag’s methodology of hitting.

Its a really very different sensation that is not difficult once mastered but it is so counterintuitive that it has taken me fully three months to get a good grip on this. Lag told me one day that hitting was a ‘mean’ sensation and now I feel like its a mean slashing feeling from P3 to P4.

Combining that with the ‘holy grail’ intent of holding shaft flex to PV5 is the next step in my quest. I have no idea how long it will take me, but to some extent I don’t care because I understand where I am heading and am starting to see a few glimpses ( accompanied by some really crap shots too! lol!).

The one handed drills are quite illuminating when viewed again on video and they really show up quite big differences in my particular case. For example, the module 1 drill, my right hand range of motion seemed restricted compared to the left and a simple change in grip to holding the club more in the fingers had the desired effect both on video and made a real difference in ballstriking.

There is a pile of subtle stuff going on in those three modules that I see something new every time I review them and its really important to get as close to the ideal as possible.

That was a really interesting comment about learning to use a pen right handed for a left hander and the drills will certainly help ingrain the correct hitting feeling…

Good luck, sounds like you have had quite some success already and be patient, things can seem a bit slow for a few weeks then bang something happens, thats what keeps me hooked.

Did you see Lag’s fog picture in the extras section? It really shows the cutting it left move well.

http://advancedballstriking...

Whitednj,

I think your friend's swing is quite a clever move. Whether he understands it or not, he is applying one of my biggest concepts quite effectively, and that is not to load into P3 with more than your capacity to fire.

It's a hitters action, and I like that, and he's smart to swing that way given the limited range of motion he constricts his HANDS to..

The disadvantage would simply be that he is giving up the fabulous advantages of playing from a true low point, so some typical compensations have to be made. Not hard to do..

I sure like it a lot better than the guys I see trying to fake a lot of lag angle on the downswing.

That swing will beat the pants of a lot of people.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I’ll come clean … it’s me (as if you didn’t guess!). So the short backswing is OK? And the “constricted hands” is to do with a lack of roll? And how do I get the “true low point”?

I do not take big divots and often none at all. I am trying to generate my club head speed from the parallel to ball which isn’t far but if I push my backwing I really start to sway.

This swing is still holding together under pressure. I won the Monthly Medal today with Net 66 (9 over) – 4 better than the next guy and I tried very hard on the last three holes (par, birdie, bogie).

Fantastic website Lag, I hope it is a stunning success for you, alot of great and interesting information on there….

Junior

Mr Lagpressure, Dart, guru

Just wanted to run a thought by you regarding hand action or feeling. Been working on chips in the living room when the kiddies have gone to bed.

I’ve noticed when pros chip, from the dtl view the clubhead appears to finish higher and outside the hands rarher than the average clubhead under, or inline with the left arm. This seems to be a result of maintaing the flying wedges instead of flipping.

The feeling that works for me, and I hope to take it to the range, is to drive #1PP to that ball and keep the feeling of #3PP above the plane, or is that drive #1 under and #3 on plane. Just experimenting with chips and practive full swings keeping #3 above #1 seems to be a way to lessen flipping and to keep the clubface turning over without too much effort.

Just some thoughts, I would hate to be off down the wrong track though. Thoughts?

’#1 and #3 on the same plane. Think of it as your right forearm driving the shaft rather than active hands.

Pro’s have down and out going for there chipping. If their clubheads appear to finish high then they may be hitting a mini pitch shot which goes past Both Arms Straight.

Grab a Taly training aid and work with it. The flips will die as the light bulbs fire up.

Marion,

Remember that chip Shots don’t have the strong CF forces acting upon them that full swings do… but is does show a certain intention, which you were wise to pick up on.. good..

The idea of driving pressure points is good, however, I would need to know what you are using drive those points and how..

I’m not big on feeling the clubface turning over, other than that which is being imparted by the rotation of the pivot post impact. Learning to properly release the golf club into impact is crucial, trying to make up for it post impact because you didn’t do it properly before can be more than problematic.

Send or post a video if you can..

Junior,

My site has been around for quite a while..
Nothing new..

Just a place to post pics, and other information that I can access more easily, and it helps my students for referencing stuff quickly.

I got tired of having to search all over the web to find a swing photo or
other stuff I had laying around.

Not planning on going anywhere..

Whitednj,

Congrats on the win! Good stuff.. maybe you should try hard the whole round? That was I used to do on tour.. !

Remember, our low point is determined by where we are at impact not address, and these positions or relationships are rarely the same.

This is why I teach my students to release the club properly first, then dynamically create their swing plane so it’s actually on plane, then we can address true low point and start to examine how to properly aim our intentions to strike the golf ball in a direction we control rather than the other way around.

As your golf swing improves, so will your divot patterns with or without a golf ball… pay close attention…

The secret is in the dirt.

Lag, what are your thoughts on Tiger hitting 14/14 fairways yesterday and only missing 7 all week?

If he keeps that up he won’t be touched at Bethpage Black!

This is what we should see from the #1 player in the world. Why should we see anything less? If he is in the fairway, who can beat him?

Why did he miss any greens? what happened on those shots?
Just curious… were they just roll offs or did he hit some bad iron shots?

YOU SHOULD HAVE TO HIT IT STRAIGHT TO WIN GOLF TOURNAMENTS at the highest level of the game.

I didn’t see the tournament, not sure how the course was set up…
I think most Nicklaus courses I have played have had pretty generous fairways.

That’s great stuff, I hope Tiger has found something that works for him.. and maybe the PGA Tour will catch on and force these guys to be more accurate than they have been.

Lag, what are your thoughts on Tiger hitting 14/14 fairways yesterday and only missing 7 all week?

If he keeps that up he won't be touched at Bethpage Black!

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

I heard he has gone to a 10 degree driver that would help somewhat.

To be honest when I heard he’d hit 14/14 fairways I was surprised he didn’t shoot less.

From what I saw a number of the greens had quite difficult flag positions. Coupled with some of the greens running somewhere near 14, it can be tough going. The shooting wasn’t low across the board. Final score was what -10 or -12 for four days….

dcee

Someone told me today he hadn’t had a round were he hit every fairway since 2002.. it shouldn’t be a rare occurrence.

It would be nice to see him strike the driver as straight as he hits his putts.. the hole is a much smaller target than a fairway..

In tennis, the serve sets up the point.. much like a drive sets up the hole.

In tennis you have to serve it into that box. It’s required.. and so should it be in golf.. you should have to drive the ball in the fairway with great accuracy to be winning world class events.

I just don’t think going 14 for 14 should be surprising, it should be fairly common place for a guy like Tiger.

Good sign going into US Open

Hi Lag,

I saw on your site your clubs are 6 degrees flatter than standard, are they the standard length?

I would have thought 6 degrees flat would have meant much lower hands at address but yours dont seem signifigantly lower than others.

Have you always used flatter clubs or is this a something that has developed over time

Cheers

From what I saw a number of the greens had quite difficult flag positions. Coupled with some of the greens running somewhere near 14, it can be tough going. The shooting wasn't low across the board. Final score was what -10 or -12 for four days….

dcee

No doubt. Sorry I didn’t mean to sound dismissive of his score. Just that he shoots 65 regularly and only hits a handful of fairways. I would think if there a 4 par 5’s and he is on the fairway par is really 68 on most courses for him….....

Lag,I think we should all be cutting Tiger some slack over his driving.There are three main reasons I can see that affects his driving “accuracy”.I can probably think of more.

1. The guy has had 3 knee operations.Hes had problems with his left knee for most of his pro career.

2. He has had to transition from a 43.5 inch steel shaft to a 45 inch graphite shaft to keep up with the competition.Maybe like you he cannot feel his golf swing as well with lighter,longer shafts.He has gone on record to say he would bring back steel shafted persimmons if he were in charge of the rules.I suspect he hates the new technology just lke you.

3. Tiger has a swing speed up in the high 120’s.People talk about how accurate Moe Norman was.Moe drove the ball maybe 240yards on average.Tiger drives it 300+ on average.Tigers target is farther away.Who’s going to be more accurate?Tiger hits his 4 iron about 240 yards.We should be comparing the accuracy of his 4 iron with Moe’s driver to be fair.

I like your thinking Lag regarding tennis – can we have two goes at our drive as well?!!!

I have played with Tiger and his drives aren’t much father than mine and his iron shots were very similar in club selection
I think his yardages get blown out of proportion…maybe he CAN hit a 4 iron 240 but he doesn’t very often…I would drop that back to around 210-215
As for length with the driver I don’t for a second believe he went longer shafted to keep up….he can still be the longest driver if he wanted to….. but he uses a higher spin ball to give him the control he feels he needs in other areas of the game.
If he used a rock with no spin he would outdrive them all….he doesn’t need that
he needs the control and then just let his putting and chipping do the rest

He can hit the ball as far as he can or wants to. depends on the situation

I have used GPS to pin point yardages. If I can hit a 4 iron (off the tee) 212yards, I’m sure tiger can deloft and smash it 230. I really do believe that.

I am nearly positive Tiger cut down this driver. I wish I could remember my source, but I’m nearly positive it’s still half an inch below 45.

What I like about ‘new’, post operation Tiger, is he seems to swinging within himself much more.

He has NEVER optimally driven the ball. J.B. Holmes has a recorded slower club head speed, but he positions the ball higher, and further up the target line. Not only that but Tiger uses an extremely high spinning ball. Watch how much roll he gets… it’s like… zero.

Whatever he’s doing it is firing on all cylinders at just the right time. The ONLY thing that bothers me is watching other pro’s around him… seemingly fold up like cheap tents when he’s even near them.

I still think the most impressive ball striking I’ve ever read about was Ben Hogan’s run in 1939 (?). His first three wins, in a row, only 3 putted twice, and missed… two fairways… In all those rounds, I don’t even know if he missed a GIR!

I am just paraphrasing, I don’t have the book in front of me, but the statistics were mind blowing. (and to think how many times he almost gave up in those days!!!)

Shome,Tigers usual yardage with 4 iron would be 215y but one of his stingers off the tee would be longer…and deadly accurate.He did not find any of the 128 or so bunkers over four rounds at St.Andrew when he won the 2000 British Open.Even Moe would have been impressed.

My point out of all this is that Tiger has a very high clubhead speed…probably the highest on tour.It stands to reason that his margin of error is going to be smaller than other players.This is further magnified by the fact he plays a high spin ball.A 150mph Andy Roddick serve is going to be harder to get in play than Nadals powder puffs.

I think we need to get all the facts straight before we criticize Tigers driving.

Peter Thomson on Tiger

For those who haven’t seen this interview with 5 time Open champion Peter Thomson, I think he sums up Tiger quite well at the end of the interview.

Dap,

I think what I have been saying about Tiger is that as far as a pure ball striker, I’m not as impressed as most.

I know that when the ball goes farther, the fairways get narrower in relation to the vectors that go out from the tee box.

However, both Showme and myself have played with Greg Norman
and Greg in his prime drove the ball very long, and very straight.
I have heard this too about Sam Snead and Al Barkow spent a lot of time covering Sam and watching him drive the ball 280 yards with persimmon and a very archaic golf ball.. some say Norman was a better driver than Snead, and he may very well have been.

How many times have we seen Tiger hit it 40 yards right with his driver
and drop the club in disgust?

As far as the gear, it’s very important, and I hold any player responsible for what they put in their bag. It’s very much a part of your golf game. If Tiger or anyone for that matter chooses to pack a club in their bag they can’t control well, but they feel it outweighs the importance of accurate driving, then fine… but is still doesn’t change the fact that the greatest ball strikers are ACCURATE ball strikers…
and driving of the golf ball is one of true cornerstones of the art form of top notch ball striking. What great ball striker was not known for laser like accuracy with the driver?

Tiger plays more like Seve did than say Trevino.

How well you pure the golf ball and how well you score have little to do with one another.

Rochie,

If done properly, you can’t swing too flat. It’s something I wanted to do many years ago, but when you are on tour, and have a busy schedule, it’s hard to rationalize making such a big change while you are on tour.
I wasn’t in a position where I had the luxury of taking off 6 months or a year to re work my golf swing.

When I rebuilt my golf swing in 1988, it was a very tough time, and the realization of flatter clubs hadn’t entered my psyche just yet. That was when I should have done it..

I switched from swinging to hitting and it took me about 9 months… and a lot of explaining to sponsors and such. 1989 was a much better year for me. I wish I would have made the move to correct golf clubs in 1989. I went from 1 degree upright to 1 degree flat.

In the last year I have moved my iron sets to 6 degrees flat.

This last week I have been re building a 1952 M75 Mac Gregor driver and I have set it up at a 45 degree lie angle.. that is 10 degrees flat. I took it out yesterday at Mare and drove the ball
very well with it. I have two other Penna drivers that are set up at 48 degrees or 7 degrees flat.

The key to making it work is simply lowering my center of gravity.
There are two ways to do this… one is by significantly widening my stance. Both Hogan and Knudson talked about a boxer’s stance.
Moe talked about the great pyramids of Egypt. Much more stability and being well centered. Trevino was quiet wide as well.

Second is adding knee bend. I can further lower my center of gravity by bending my knees more.. for me, I add flex in my left leg,
and keep my right leg straight at address, which I think is a fantastic way to set up. My right hip is slightly turned back therefore eliminating a major moving part on my backswing.. Moe taught me this years ago… but I didn’t think to incorporate it until this last year…
because now I have the time and freedom to do it, and further the development of my golf swing. I’m more than happy with the results.

So why the obsession with flat?

It’s in the geometry …

The more upright the club, the more clubface impact alignments affect flight line negatively. The flatter the clubhead, the more clubface alignments affect trajectory.
OTT starts to become a lower shot, and less left. Any rotation of the clubface had the same effect.. much less deviation in direction.

The result? Straighter golf shots.

This is nothing new..

In the 1930’s, Bill Melhorn promoted that golf be played from 45 degrees… 10 degrees flat off what is today standard..

Nothing new.

Peter Thomson on Tiger

For those who haven't seen this interview with 5 time Open champion Peter Thomson, I think he sums up Tiger quite well at the end of the interview.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

Had a surf but couldnt find any swing vision of Tony Lema, you got one in the collection?

Certainly an impressive record between 1962 and when he passed away and a big tick from Peter Thomson who saw them all.

Lag,this article about old vs new equipment will interest you….and surprise you.It seems like the new stuff don’t hit any farther.We just seem to swing them harder and faster.

http://www.golfdigest.com/g...

Prot, you were right about Tiger’s driver. His driver specs last week were:

Nike SQ Dymo 380 – 10.5 degrees
Mitsubishi Diamana Whiteboard 83g shaft
43.5” shaft

malvernstar,

Tony Lema..

pretty much says it all right there..

Dap,

I can’t get that article to load, but I think it’s the same one I read recently.. a very good article..

we can generate a lot more clubhead speed with a long light club,
and with a huge head, we don’t have to worry about missing the ball.

The big heads allow us to take a huge rip at it also..

The problem remains the same.. Too light means too easy to over accelerate..

Too light means less feel for the player and harder to control.

Just play long open golf courses..

Dap,

I can't get that article to load, but I think it's the same one I read recently.. a very good article..

we can generate a lot more clubhead speed with a long light club,
and with a huge head, we don't have to worry about missing the ball.

The big heads allow us to take a huge rip at it also..

The problem remains the same.. Too light means too easy to over accelerate..

Too light means less feel for the player and harder to control.

Just play long open golf courses..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Yes its the same article – the one about Chad Campbell at the Byron Nelson.

Dap: Tiger is not the fastest on tour…. Bubba is 5-10mph quicker

Lag, can you give me more info on Seve? He was such a great player to watch as he was inspirational from the rough. But why was he famous for getting there so often in the 1st place?

http://www.pgatour.com/play...?/00/10/51/stats

Above is a link to Seve’s US stats …click on a new year and view… I think I started out from 1980 when stats were first recorded..you can click and view different years

His driving stats throughout his career aren’t all that bad….over 60-65% nearly every year….that’s 2 out of 3…. beats the pants off Mickelson and Tiger’s yearly stats of the past 5 to 6 years
Granted Seve didn’t play as much in America but stats are stats
I saw him play…I played with him when he was struggling from the tee…....but I did also see him play at his best….and take it from me… he wasn’t all that wild all that often
Everyone remembers him being in a car park in 1979 when he won his first Open…..did you know the car park was inside the course proper and probably only 10 yards off the right side of a left to right dogleg hole that cutting the corner is not a bad option….He birdied the hole because he knew that was the correct line to approach the flag from.
That’s all everyone remembers and he gets a bad wrap for it.
He almost won the US Open in 1983…..can’t be a bad driver of the ball to get close in that event.
he won in greensboro where the rough is normally amongst the highest on the Tour each year….
He wasn’t anywhere near as bad a driver as he is made out to be. Yes he lost his driving later in his career but with what he has gone through now with brain surgery etc who’s to say that wasn’t an underlying factor to his fall from grace?
And even if he did hit some off line now and then….he had the recovery game that has only ever been equaled by Tiger from anyone that I have seen
SEVE was awesome and one of my absolute heroes. I am so thankful I played with him at least once and got to see him work his magic up close.

Dap: Tiger is not the fastest on tour…. Bubba is 5-10mph quicker

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

I dont’t think Bubba is faster….he just has more optimised launch conditions.

http://www.golfdigest.com/g...

Showme .. thanks and it must have been a rare privilage to play with Seve. I read his bio years ago and he started playing with a 3-iron for a few years as a kid (and so did I) and he learnt every shot with this club (and I didn’t). He must have been able to shape the ball like no other to even attempt some of the saves I saw him do on TV over the years.

There are many things that separate pros from a weekend warrior and one of these is their abilty to extracate themselves from the trees. And Seve was simply the master at this. Agree that Tiger is the next best that I have seen. Everytime I’m snookered in the trees I think “what would Seve do?”.

And Seve was simply the master at this. Agree that Tiger is the next best that I have seen.

I reckon Phil is better than Tiger at finding creative ways of getting out of trouble. However Tiger is in a league of his own when it comes to making the subsequent putts.

And Seve was simply the master at this. Agree that Tiger is the next best that I have seen.

I reckon Phil is better than Tiger at finding creative ways of getting out of trouble. However Tiger is in a league of his own when it comes to making the subsequent putts.

Agree with that. Interestingly, as a kid Phil used to practice with a SW in his backyard. Read somewhere that he could not be bothered going and getting other clubs so he taught himself to hit all types of shots with the SW. Another fanatical natural talent from an early age it seems.

Mickelson’s good…but his scrambling % isn’t a scratch on Tiger.
Yes Tiger finishes the job off by making the putt….so did Seve… Phil doesn’t…
Phil is remembered for some flop shots over his head and over his instructor who is standing right in front of him…..
and it is easily forgotten the 4 fat pitches in a row at Torrey Pines last year that gave him a 9 on the 13th hole. The punch shot at Bay Hill straight into the water.
I have never seen Tiger do stuff like that…...he just never screws up any recovery/pitch/chip that causes him to have a big number on a hole

I have never seen Tiger do stuff like that……he just never screws up any recovery/pitch/chip that causes him to have a big number on a hole

I think Phils creativity can get him into trouble. Where Tiger usually plays the percentages and relys on his putting. Phil tends to go for broke and sometimes comes undone.

I listened to Jack Nicklaus talking about the impact the grooves changes were going to make on Thursday, through gritted teeth as VJ spun his wedge back to the hole even though he was dead downwind as he was talking!

Jacks logic is that there will be a domino effect like this:

- Once the change happens the players will put more emphasis on driving it in the fairway because many of todays balls are too firm to spin out of the rough with what will be permissable next year.

- Of course a lot will choose to use a softer ball to help then spin it. But softer balls also means a higher spin rate with the driver and will curve more which brings its own challenges / control issues.

- In short Jack expects the changes to lead to shorter, more accurate golf over the medium term.

These sentiments are similar to those expressed by Stewart Cink recently in this article stating the grooves regulations will mean mean 10% less spin from fairway and 60-70% less from rough for the pro’s.

Anyone want to hazard a guess on what impact we will see next year? Will they dramatic, obvious or hidden to average armchair fan?

Cheers, Arnie

Another, earlier piece on the truth behind the power game

I have never seen Tiger do stuff like that……he just never screws up any recovery/pitch/chip that causes him to have a big number on a hole

I think Phils creativity can get him into trouble. Where Tiger usually plays the percentages and relys on his putting. Phil tends to go for broke and sometimes comes undone.

Yep….Phil can pull off some miraculous shots at times….but percentages win events more of ten than not….not the go for broke attitude each and every time…. The Shark and Palmer can vouch for that….they threw away a few with too much aggression at times
Tiger just never seems to do that….he plays aggressive but within his means ….if he can pull off a shot he goes for it….. if the odds are against him he takes his chance on pitching it close or making a good saving putt and eliminates the horror stories from his card

Another, earlier piece on the truth behind the power game

Good one Arnie….I hadn’t seen that article….but I knew Clayts would be of the tradition mode…..it all makes so much sense it is unbelievable…but the compnies want to sell to the public the same stuff the pros play with and use the marketing tools around that concept…...wish it was the other way around
I saw Ernie Els hit a driver and a 7 iron to the old 17th (now 9th) at Royal Melbourne…..ridiculous…..it used to be 2 of your sunday best to get near the green
Something should have been done long ago….but the governing bodies were playing pocket billiards and let it all go way too far… hopefully this groove change back has some affect…I believe it will to some degree….so long as they don’t mow the rough down so you can still get bat to ball

As I was reading that article, it seemed like I was reading something I had written…

thanks for posting that one!

A couple of posts on Lynn Blake caught my eye, I thought you may enjoy/have an opinion on them Lag.

Not trying to be difficult but I don’t think Homer Kelly had a pattern for Hogan’s swing. TGM says 4 barrel, or 2-M-3 what ever else but Hogan hit the golf ball fully with his right side and thats pretty much why people don’t like to talk about Hogan’s swing and if they do I find them to be way off base. The old way of TGM talked about a bowed left wrist now they have chaged it to flat. Hogan used his extrem flex bowing the back of the right wrist to bow his left through impact. This also got the club in a layed off lag position while the right elbow was getting into place for Hogan to hit it as hard as he wanted with his right side. Hogan was not a swinger or a hitter he was a rotary pusher of the dominant right side. I explained this in my book that some of you have read and asked me about. I have hit Hogan’s personal clubs and they are 6 flat, with a grounded heel to set open, extrem stiff, and thick grips, with a coat hanger it felt like set at 5:25. I have talked to people that played with him on a regular basis, pro’s that played against him, and was able to view some private films of him swinging on the range. The Ben Hogan Estate went as far to authorise me with full rights to Hogan’s name and image.

I’m not saying that I am the only person that knows Hogan’s swing or that what I say is the final word but rather a lot of people get Hogan wrong on what he did in the golf swing and they are trying to make you believe what they do from the facts they have gathered from photos, or youtube video which all but one I have seen don’t show a strait angle of Hogan from a DTL which most base there facts off of. Sorry if I come off in any wrong way I am just trying to help myself understand others point of views to my own and express what I think as well.

This one was by Blake Burleson, author of “The one plane cut swing”

This one by O.B.Left who I think posts here as well.

Today I had a local club fitter up here, show me George Knudson’s old 3 wood, which immediately reminded me of all the stories about Hogans clubs. It was a telephone pole too. Knudson was a big Hogan fan and companion at times. It was a 1980’s Minzuno, persimmon, small black head, the stiffest steel shaft available Im told, a Brunswick FM90? The first thought I had was how heavy the thing was. The head was drilled out and lead filled and then the shaft end was severely counter balanced to get the swing weight down to C-9. The man showing it to me is the nephew of George’s old club maker and as a youth used to do the runs to the hardware store to buy the bolts they used for counter balancing. He said that George didnt care so much about swing weight but rather the dead weight. He liked it heavy. This 3 wood came in at almost 16 ounces. Doesnt sound like much but it was heavy in the hands. Thing was it sort of swung itself and seemed like it would work nicely to me…...........Hmmmmm?

Somewhere in the memory banks I remember a story of Golf Digest listing Knudson as the best fairway wood player of all time. This was a while back of course.

A couple of posts on Lynn Blake caught my eye, I thought you may enjoy/have an opinion on them Lag.

Not trying to be difficult but I don't think Homer Kelly had a pattern for Hogan's swing. TGM says 4 barrel, or 2-M-3 what ever else but Hogan hit the golf ball fully with his right side and thats pretty much why people don't like to talk about Hogan's swing and if they do I find them to be way off base. The old way of TGM talked about a bowed left wrist now they have chaged it to flat. Hogan used his extrem flex bowing the back of the right wrist to bow his left through impact. This also got the club in a layed off lag position while the right elbow was getting into place for Hogan to hit it as hard as he wanted with his right side. Hogan was not a swinger or a hitter he was a rotary pusher of the dominant right side. I explained this in my book that some of you have read and asked me about. I have hit Hogan's personal clubs and they are 6 flat, with a grounded heel to set open, extrem stiff, and thick grips, with a coat hanger it felt like set at 5:25. I have talked to people that played with him on a regular basis, pro's that played against him, and was able to view some private films of him swinging on the range. The Ben Hogan Estate went as far to authorise me with full rights to Hogan's name and image.

I'm not saying that I am the only person that knows Hogan's swing or that what I say is the final word but rather a lot of people get Hogan wrong on what he did in the golf swing and they are trying to make you believe what they do from the facts they have gathered from photos, or youtube video which all but one I have seen don't show a strait angle of Hogan from a DTL which most base there facts off of. Sorry if I come off in any wrong way I am just trying to help myself understand others point of views to my own and express what I think as well.

This one was by Blake Burleson, author of ’ÄúThe one plane cut swing”

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

Thanks for this Stylsie – very interesting about Hogans personal clubs – I think Blake posted over here under Burley Golf for a while recently. Blake – if you are around I would love to know more about how you got access to a set of Hogans personal clubs.

Cheers,

Arnie

This talk about gear…..

One thing I am finding with my current swing is that with an iron with some weight to it, you do feel like you can go after it more, don’t you?

Conversely the modern driver is so light I feel like… you can’t really swing it hard at all or you lose everything. It’s bizzarre because in my case I can go after my 3 iron with a lot of strength. When I swing my driver I feel like I’m babying one of those ‘pool noodles’ through impact.

These guys knew something. I’m sure weight is counter productive after a while, but this super light stuff…. I think it’s crappy for your swing in the long run unless you are physically incapable of powering the club.

I re read the chapter in Barkow’s book on Wild Bill Mehlhorn..
I played yesterday with Al and tried out a new driver I put together
that set up with a 45 degree lie angle… 10 degrees flat off standard
which Mehlhorn felt strongly about.

Hogan considered Wild Bill Mehlhorn to be one of the finest strikers of a golf ball he had ever seen. Mehlhorn won the 1924
Western Open, which back then was considered a major for it’s time.

Here are some excepts that I found interesting from the Chapter on Mehlhorn.

“Because the golf swing happens so quicky, it’s like ten people describing a car accident. Everyone sees and feels it differently.”

Mehlhorn believed the elbows play a huge roll in the golf swing, just as in life in general, you can’t do much without moving your elbows. I think we can relate to this as so much of what we do is defined by how we use our elbows in our swing, particularly the right elbow. Because this very much is one of the main protocol differences between hitting and swinging.
It’s a great observation.

Mehlhorn also did not believe in maximizing swing radius.. He talks about how if you put a stone on a three foot string, you can spin it faster than if it were on a 10 foot string. “You can move something faster in a small space than in a larger one”

Mehlhorn is was also the inventor of the compact golf club.. he cut the toe off the long headed irons and then welded it to
the back of the club behind the sweetspot. He understood the concept of putting mass behind the hitting area… and was a proponent of using heavier clubs assuming you could swing them at or near the same speed as lighter ones. “You need mass with speed”

Mehlhorn also was the first to put numbers on the bottoms of his clubs! What a concept!

Mehlhorn was a big believer in swinging the club flat.. He believed the golf swing should be 45 degrees to the ground..
He called the golfswing a “sideways move”
Most drivers are no where near that flat.. most around 55 even up to 60 degrees.

I recently built a driver at 45 degrees and played with it, and it really feels like your swinging a baseball bat. It really embraces the pivot.

Mehlhorn said you should typically hit your shots with only about 2/3rd’s of your effort.. and only use more than that near
the end of a round to keep your rhythm intact.

Mehlhorn said although Nicklaus had proved to be the greatest player of all time, he wouldn’t even put him in the top 50 of
the greatest ball strikers. “Hogan had the best swing, not Snead, because he had a more sideways movement”

Did Mehlhorn win a major ?

I think it’s important to note, that when you are talking about swinging like Hogan, or Knudson for that matter, that the complete equation is looked at in it’s entirety.

If you want to swing flat you also need to have flat clubs..

If you want to use flat clubs (like Hogan and Knudson) you have to swing the golf club in a certain way.

I firmly believe that both Hogan and Knudson and many of the other fine strikers of that era clearly understood these concepts about swing plane, heavier clubs.. proper weighting, lie angles and so forth.

There were a lot of smart minds back in the 1920’s 30’s 40’s 50’s.
Living in San Francisco, I am constantly reminded of the great intellect and engineering prowess of the wizards back then every time I go across the Bay Bridge or even the Golden Gate. These people from generations ago knew a lot more than we might give them credit for.

Back then, marketing efforts were geared toward sturdiness, longevity, reliability, and quality.. not like today where the goal is consumer exploitation and making something obsolete as quickly as possible.

My point is that we have been left an amazing legacy, a blue print on how to swing a golf club with great efficiency, and the type of tools you need to do so.. but these things need to work together.

“The best I ever saw from tee to green was Bill Mehlhorn”
Ben Hogan, Golf Magazine January, 1975

http://www.golfwithmehlhorn...

http://www.efootage.com/sto...

http://sevam1.blogspot.com/...

Daves,

Great links..

thanks..

I think someone a few pages back showed a Mickey Wright photo in P5 that you liked Lag….. here’s one at P3 and impact
She had the tools back in the day that’s for sure…her coach from the start also taught Gene Littler-........Johnny Belante
“Johnny mainly worked on balance and rhythm with me- the two ‘musts’ in any good golf swing”

That’s about as pure as it gets…

I was talking to Al Barkow about Mickey just the other day, and he said Mickey was by far the greatest woman golfer of all time..

I often here different instructors talk about how women and men have to have different golf swings. I find it hard to believe that the golf ball could actually care whether a man or woman is striking it with a club.
I’m sure the laws of physics don’t chance either.. maybe? lol

Mickey Wright clearly demonstrates and still to this day sets the bar high for how a golf club should be swung, regardless of gender.

Years ago there was a gal at my home club about my age, Joanne Pacillo, and we used to talk shop about the golf swing and how Mickey was her role model..

Joanne went on to win the 1983 US Womens Amateur Championship.

One the recent Shell matches I picked up was Mickey Wright vs. Brigette Varangot from 1964 – I’ll see if I can put some footage up soon.

These two photos of Mickey are absolute textbook stuff..

Coming into P3 on a great 4:30 line, slightly laid off.. all set up for
a great pivot thrust and hand firing into impact.

The next frame shows how much the hips and torso have moved in a big way.. nothing passive going on here.. with the ball already off the club, the right arm is still bent with lots of stored energy to thrust into P4 and beyond.

I love how the shaft is right across the belt line at P3.. this is the by product of what Hogan called the “free ride down”.. and the shaft appears to be working from about a 45 degree angle at P3 just as Wild Bill Mehlhorn would have suggested.

It’s no wonder Hogan called Mickey the best golf swing ever.

Awesome stuff..

“Oh Mickey your so fine, you blow my mind!”

Here’s the continuation of that swing sequence

Got some face on stuff too…. I’ll add here or shoot you in an e-mail

Its amazing just how much she reaches for the sky post impact.

Awesome pictures.

Like Peter Senior

Chalk up another open hips at impact hall of fame ballstriker.

your persistent dap

bit concerned about left knee at takeaway SMTM
otherwise perfect

your persistent dap

the greatest game ever played

LOL yeah just giving my post count a boost

be 400 before you know it

I bet Elvis Presley would have had really open hips at impact

Down in the jungle room…....

Here’s a couple more dap…TGM followers

Elk and Clampett

If your body is firing and bringing the hands and club into the slot this has got to happen

Here’s some more cool shots…. Doug Sanders

lag down- right arm close-4.30 (p3)-full release extension(p4)

Flusher

nice loading on that shaft in that last set of 4

here’s some load….some old photos of the Shark in the early 80’s

This is why he was the longest straightest driver ever

There is just so much DOWN in that phot of Greg. The lower body is obviously turning back, and the shoulders too, so there is the forward there. But what strikes me about the first photo is that it looks like he’s got everything going down. Almost like the turn is just a reaction of the body to the downforce.

Also interesting in the second photo is how much he’s still on the back foot that far into follow through. Which emphasises to me that the swing is down more than around.

What an action. Just beautiful. Almost feel sorry for the shaft! That much bend in what would have to be a stiff or extra shift shaft. Holy cow!

here's some load….some old photos of the Shark in the early 80's

This is why he was the longest straightest driver ever

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

He wasn’t experimenting with a senior flex shaft that day was he ?
Awesome pics Shome.
I think I’m starting to get the lag thing happening a bit better by thinking about driving the butt end of the club towards the impact zone on the down swing… Can definately feel more flex in the club shaft…. Am I on the right track ?

Sounds good to me Digga…. whatever thought you can imagine to promote it
Check out the Sharks knee flex down and slightly forward…that is what has dropped those hands and club down into that flex and inside position giving him the opportunity to keep firing and go hard at it…..Photo 2 prime example… nothing left behind in that one

Weetbix…I think these were from 1983? Obviously his swing has changed a little over the years…but he was pretty flush right there.. as you made point of about his body work

Here's a couple more dap…TGM followers

Elk and Clampett

If your body is firing and bringing the hands and club into the slot this has got to happen

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Shome,

It’s interesting you bring up Elk and Clampett.Elk’s swing is not really TGM influenced as he started studying TGM with Doyle quite late in his career.In fact you could say his results on tour deteriorated after TGM.His swing has always been a bit armsy due to his “stacked” theory.Maybe this is why he gravitated to TGM because it suited his style.He would start his downswing with hands,arms and shoulders but pause with his hips to allow them to “catch up”.He would fire hips late in the downswing.His hips at impact is not as open as you think.Those pics you posted look post impact.

Clampett started TGM quite early.He is also another example of an armsy swing with squarish impact hips.

Sounds good to me Digga…. whatever thought you can imagine to promote it
Check out the Sharks knee flex down and slightly forward…that is what has dropped those hands and club down into that flex and inside position giving him the opportunity to keep firing and go hard at it…..Photo 2 prime example… nothing left behind in that one

Weetbix…I think these were from 1983? Obviously his swing has changed a little over the years…but he was pretty flush right there.. as you made point of about his body work

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Thanks Shome… I’m working hard on the pivot and knees/legs at the moment… all at the same time trying to keep a handle on what the hands are up to.

“At the highest level of competition and under the most demanding of conditions, I have found everything in the book to be true.” Steve Elkington

Dap the entire gist of the book is that there is no ‘style’ that it cannot get along with. Laws are laws.

Elks mind suited TGM. He wanted to know the nuts and bolt of why to own more of his own action – to help him mentally trust himself more.

Clampett trained with Ben Doyle pretty much from the get go. He learned Ben’s way. He has seen since there other ways too (as did Lagpressure). He is still no slouch, 66 and a 68 at Pebble beach a while back with Tiger. 2010 he can try out in the Seniors Tour.

Hip position is not an Imperative. Hip motion that allows an on plane swing with lag is. How that is achieved is optional.
Open or not so open. Depends on the total motions pattern.

Guru,I have never said you cannot play great golf with an armsy swing.

You keep saying that TGM does not have a style but It seems to me it does have a style of teaching.Hands controlled pivot…geometry over physics.

I have pointed out some examples to back it up.Nothing scientific..purely empirical evidence.

You are correct.Laws are laws but TGM is not law.It is loosely based on science.

Manzella said this about the book recently.

“As a book of golfing ideas,TGM is an A++ “

“As an English term paper,TGM is a D+ “

“As a Physics term paper TGM is a C- “

“As a method instruction book,TGM is a B- “

He may be right but I wonder how many English and Physics papers Manzella has marked in his life?

Not sure about his English but he seems to write pretty well.

His take on TGM physics is not his own.He has consulted PHD physics professors regarding the science in TGM.

Homer Kelly was not a PHD.He was not even an engineer.He was an engineers aid.He probably didn’t even finish university.

Oh no! Not finish Uni, he must be a retard! : ) There’s your proof right there!!

MITs golfing authors gave Homers work a big pass (but did find the style and language tough going). PGA sent it to them for their appraisal.

“it seems to me it does have its style of teaching.” What you see as geometry over physics is how you see it. They go together.

Guru,I will try to dig it up but I remember Manzella saying that one MIT guy gave it a pass but a couple of others had no clue what he was on about.How can anyone assess a book properly if it is confusing as hell.I can only guess it was not a proper appraisal,just a quick read on the bus back home.

MIT has never officially endorsed the book so trying to endorse it associating MIT is a bit dodgy.

Oh no! Not finish Uni, he must be a retard! : ) There's your proof right there!!

Keen newbie to the game, now obsessed.

LOL It doesn’t prove anything,just saying Homer does not have the credentials to apply physics to an extremely complex motion like the golf swing.

It’s a bit like Guru saying MIT found no flaws with the book.I guess thats definitive proof right there,no questions need more be asked about the science in the book.

I am just trying to be rational in face of the evidence.

Yeah it’s cool, just couldn’t resist that one.

Guru,I have never said you cannot play great golf with an armsy swing.

You keep saying that TGM does not have a style but It seems to me it does have a style of teaching.Hands controlled pivot…geometry over physics.

I have pointed out some examples to back it up.Nothing scientific..purely empirical evidence.

You are correct.Laws are laws but TGM is not law.It is loosely based on science.

Manzella said this about the book recently.

’ÄúAs a book of golfing ideas,TGM is an A+ ’Äú

’ÄúAs an English term paper,TGM is a D ’Äú

’ÄúAs a Physics term paper TGM is a C- ’Äú

’ÄúAs a method instruction book,TGM is a B- ’Äú

Just thinking about this. Manzella’s comments here make this book a must get surely, If it is that good for ideas about golf? May not be written that well, or be that clear as a method or even based on pure physics but it’s full of brilliant ideas. The work then must fall on the pupil of golf to explore those ideas and formulate them for practice. No one becomes good at golf by simply reading a book anyhow.

Go ask Gary Wiren if you like. Theo Jorgensen seems to know what the Physics of Golf are all about. BM did not have that information as it was outside of TGM corridors.

Ask Gary Wiren about what?Was he the one who started the quote about MIT giving TGM the big thumbs up?

Don’t really see your point about Jorgenson.Did he have a part in writing TGM?

BM did not have information about what?Outside of TGM corridors?

…geometry over physics . . .

In my lessons with Dart, he’s always emphasised POWER and precision . . . I don’t think TGM pushes anything . . . definately not aligmnent over power. Infact, Dart is often heard instructing me to hit the ball as hard as I possibly can . . . that the power and muscles loading up SETS the alignments in place.

actually, I think the ideas behind TGM, or at least, the taxonomical undertaking are admirable . . . but the work itself is diabolical and would certainly fail all but the sloppiest academic review processes in oz or abroad (despite the fact that it isn’t a academic thesis . . . ). BUT . . . the work could be brought to life and made alot more user friendly if transformed into HTML hypertext form (with embedded links for the many cross references and moving images, as I find some of Diane’s modelling very ambiguous).

sounds like a job for someone who knows what taxonomical means! You offering?

dap: Have you even read the book, had a lesson with an AI, or a player who has or is using it?

Or even read Scott Gummers latest offering on who Homer was (which dismisses and explains much of what you guess about Homer – yes some “myths” tackled hard). Sorry but that book is not TGM for Dummies, just about how Homer put the work together and the people he influenced in his life time, the good and the bad.

You might get that TGM is like other golf instruction, about playing good golf, hopefully better golf, based upon better info than seem as if’s.

Let’s stick to LAGs Golfing Machine.

Diana’s photos: Each shot is exactly posed for what is supposed to be. If you are looking at the entire pic, then you are focusing on the wrong bits:)

She is still alive living in Hawaii these days.

Homer’s work is remarkable. If you focus on chapter 2 and 6 so will learn a great deal.. I really see those two chapters as his great contribution.

Those chapters are really the core of what Homer was getting at.
It’s all there, compression, shaft flex, impact swing plane, and the use of pre impact power accumulation.

There is certainly a lot of “lost in translation” going on when the book gets into the hands of second and third generation understudies, but most everything is there.

It’s easy to get lost in the component variations, and I would guess that Homer felt strongly in covering as many options as one could produce because he was quite aware that there is more than one way to play respectable golf.

Given that, I think he set the bar pretty low as far as “respectable golf”.
A lot of the component combinations are not going to fill your trophy rack… but will still allow one to hit crisp straight golf shots. It’s right in line with using Diana in the photos.

A Model T will get you from your front door to the links, so will a Ferrari. Hogan is talking Ferrari stuff… and other great players who
have attempted to describe the golf swing in books and pictures may be describing other fine options like Porsche, Corvette, Mercedes and BMW.

Homer stood up for the Pintos and Volkswagens, panel wagons and even horse drawn carriages.

As complex, overwhelming and mind bending as the yellow book may seem, it’s really a book for the weekend golfer. Homer really stands up for the average Joe or Diane…

”...dedicated to Joe Duffer and Joe Pro…is intended to serve as the Duffer’s Bible, the Golf Nut’s Catalog, the Circuit Player’s Handbook and the Instructor’s Textbook.” Homer Kelley

Lag,

An article I found via Richie3Jack’s blog. Lee Trevino talking about how he reckons he could teach Tiger how to hit a fade. Discusses how he developed the fade after watching Hogan from 100 yds away.

One thing that stood out to me is something you’ve mentioned here several times before – that you can hit pretty much any shot with any grip as long as you’re in control of the clubface:

’ÄúYou can basically hit any shot you want with any grip, if you know where the clubface is at,” said Mr. Trevino. ’ÄúI use a strong grip because it puts me in a subconscious mindset where I know that if I release the club, I'm going to hook the heck out of the ball. If I want to fade it, I'd better be darn sure I hold on.” The Trevino fade is a bit perverse in that respect, but it works for him.

Cheers,
St Hubbins.

The ’ÄúPower Package”, Chapter 6, is the core of the Golfing Machine. All such theories, Magic of the Right Forearm, Extensor Action, Extensor Action Take-away, Turned Shoulder Plane as the Variable Plane, Downstroke Acceleration Sequence, Accumulators, Flying Wedges, Release and Hinging, play ’ÄúChicken and the Egg” with the ’ÄúPower Package”. Those Theories and the ’ÄúPower Package” are inseparable.

We've all hit fades, draws, hooks, etc. TGM is about producing them and then reproducing them reliably and on demand.

I've read a few comments from Manzella regarding Jorgensen. ’ÄúThe Physics of Golf” was published in 1994. That's all we need; another technician, a physics teacher from Nebraska, USA teaching us how to hit the ball. Why all the rage now? Jorgensen took one Man, only one, then captured his swing, then theorized about the Golf Swing. What's wrong with that? Manzella thinks that Jorgensen's Data disproves Homer Kelley. It doesn't. In fact, the most significant research outlined in detail in the book, is that any Golfer trying to accelerate the Clubhead by using Forearm muscle is a twit. Also, his Golf Model states that the angle of Left Wrist Cock should not exceed 90 degrees. Goodbye Ben Hogan.

And the fun part about his research, you’ll never guess what he found that “Powers the Golf swing”. Yep, “Centrifugal Force”.

BM may have barked at the wrong man for the wrong reason. TJ was so intrigued by Homers work he wrote his own book.

dap: Have you even read the book, had a lesson with an AI, or a player who has or is using it?

Or even read Scott Gummers latest offering on who Homer was (which dismisses and explains much of what you guess about Homer – yes some ’Äúmyths” tackled hard). Sorry but that book is not TGM for Dummies, just about how Homer put the work together and the people he influenced in his life time, the good and the bad.

You might get that TGM is like other golf instruction, about playing good golf, hopefully better golf, based upon better info than seem as if's.

Let's stick to LAGs Golfing Machine.

I have never said TGM is a bad book.You seem to think that is how I feel.

As BM said…it’s a book full of great golfing ideas which is why so many people have found their own “light bulb” moments and then declare Homer a genius but the science behind these ideas gets a C-.

If you hit up your history of posts in this forum there is a pattern in there that is hard to ignore.

A pattern yes, one that gets an A for persistence and a E for science!

One the recent Shell matches I picked up was Mickey Wright vs. Brigette Varangot from 1964 – I'll see if I can put some footage up soon.

Here is little bit of footage for anyone wanting to see Mickey Wright in motion, in colour!

Cheers, Arnie

I have never said TGM is a bad book.You seem to think that is how I feel.

As BM said…it's a book full of great golfing ideas which is why so many people have found their own ’Äúlight bulb” moments and then declare Homer a genius but the science behind these ideas gets a C-.

That’s the point dap. The science of the Golfing Machine is first semester physics, at best. The Genius is chapter Six.

Chapter Six should be Re-Titled “How to Shoot the Same Score Every Time You Play Golf”.

Learn chapter six and then throw the book away. But you may need some of the book to learn chapter six.

No magic Hogan similarities in this Immelman swing is there Lag like many suggest….the secret to golf…overexposed
probably why one week he’s a world beater and then off the boil the next

Head over right foot. He doesn’t have a long enough right arm to reach impact. I bet that wasn’t his longest Drive.

I like TGM because it made me rethink every thought I ever had about a golf swing and it filled in the gaps in my thinking.

The missing pieces was why the puzzle would not resolve.

I saw millions of possibilities and only three things I must do. It did take 200 Hrs. with the Oxford Concise Dictionary, paper clips and elastic bands.

It was similar to watching the birth of our first child. Old mind – good bye. Work begins with a sharply focused purpose and ten times the intensity because of the certainty.

I am so DELIGHTED others like it too. More every day.

actually, I think the ideas behind TGM, or at least, the taxonomical undertaking are admirable . . . but the work itself is diabolical and would certainly fail all but the sloppiest academic review processes in oz or abroad (despite the fact that it isn't a academic thesis . . . ). BUT . . . the work could be brought to life and made alot more user friendly if transformed into HTML hypertext form (with embedded links for the many cross references and moving images, as I find some of Diane's modelling very ambiguous).

Phil,

Unlike academic writing it does not LEAD you to an obvious conclusion backed up by other academic conclusions.

I see it as bypassing the duplication of mind numbing golfing hearsay, that is not even academic.

TGM forces you to reevaluate vague golfing thinking. Painful but effective. Like getting a total hip replacement. Twelve months of hard work and it’s best part of you.

A normal academic would find TGM unapproachable. A seeker of “something else” would not flinch.

Homer did not know how you were going to do it but he knew precisely what you had to do.

The Tao of Dart. Now, that would be a fun read.

“The Tao of Dart”

I would read that too.

People can have their opinions about TGM, how it is presented, and the seemingly endless “wild goose chase” around the book with endless references such as “see 6-M-1” and so forth.

If you try hard enough, you can probably punch holes in any golf instruction book…

However, If you look at the options for quality golf instruction, you will be light years ahead working with someone who has a strong grasp on TGM much more than the typical “smoke and mirrors” stuff you get from the majority of people in the golf teaching profession.

Keep your head down

Your just coming off the shot

Relax

Your swinging too hard

Just take it back nice and slow

Keep it square to the line

Your shoulders are left

Your shoulders are right

Just turn back and turn through

Stay with the shot longer

Swing to the target

Keep your eye on the ball

I could go on and on with the endless cliche’ s we hear on
driving ranges and golf courses echoing into oblivion.

I could much more easily poke holes in any of those typical
“brush off” statements.

Homer is very clear if you actually read the book that compression is king, and that holding shaft flex “a pre stressed shaft” into impact is the superior method.. (hitting over swinging) it’s all there… just dig a bit.

The book is not written as a “this is how it has to be done” in a general sense.. it is written as a “this is how you can get reasonable results” and there are a BILLION ways to do that.

It’s up to us as instructors to be able to more finely interpret and suggest what might be higher ideals.. if a student has that inclination.

Personally I like working with players that have an eye on higher ideals.. having had a strong TGM background, having spent a lot of time in the conceptual trenches, and also having years of real life playing experience at high level competition, I know I can bring something unique to the table.

The arguments that might go on from time to time about what is best or ideal is really not the focus of the general golfing public. They seek out whatever they can find, as they should and need to.

I don’t find much if anything in TGM that I think is wrong.. I do find a lot of things I believe are very misinterpreted by the TGM community in a broad sense. I do feel strongly that TGM has a few important omissions.

All in all, I find it to be one of the great books on golf ever written.

Showme,

There are no mysteries…

Correct Lag…..I thought those 2 photos would make a great comparison…the body and hands and in almost identical positions in the downswing….the shaft flex is not
I know myself…I would much rather be in the Norman position than be in the Immelman position just because of what I have learned from you about compression , and control
As you say….there are no mysteries when compared

When “hitting” according to TGM what is the proper finish. IE: I know you’re driving the flat left wrist through impact, but are you actually trying to finish in a certain way, or once you get past impact to a fully straight right arm are you just pulled into your finish?

Thanks

Also, do you guys think Duval is a hitter, looks that way to me with the shut face and definitely carries that bent right wrist through impact.

I haven’t really studied Duval’s swing, so I can’t really comment with much certainty.

Showme

Duval was on the rise when you were on the PGA Tour right?
I don’t remember him when I was playing on tour. I don’t think
he played in the persimmon age… so I would guess that his swing opened up more with the modern gear..

What happened to his game anyway? Did he just lose the putter or did he start spraying the driver really bad? What is your take?
It’s an interesting story…

Hitters and swingers would have very different finishes at PV5 as I would teach.

Duval

http://www.nytimes.com/2003... … gives an insight.

There are a bunch of other stories on Duval and just about any other person on the planet. This is a great historical record.

Duval was a bit in the Trevino mold….. strong left hand grip, lots of body rotation through the ball. He just played from a much more neutral stance than Trevino did.
Out of college he was great. The can’t miss kid, and yet he did miss. He had to spend a year on the Nike Tour and begrudgingly did so. He struggled at first because he knew he was better than that. But once his attitude came around off he went…..kicked a and made it to the PGA.
He had a lot of good finishes…lots of top 10’s and runner ups but couldn’t get over the hurdle of winning.
Bob Rotella put it down to him trying too hard to win. he told him to just try a littl less and trust his instincts more…. then the flood gates opened up….. 11 wins in only a few years…. a TPC championship.. reached Number 1 in the world…. close calls at The Masters… A British Open win…... and then it was gone.
He was quite chunky in his body make up when he started winning. he got really serious and people should remember he came out for the start of 2000 like a finely tuned athlete. I don’t know how he dropped all that weight so quickly but he became a specimen of fitness.
The massive weight loss didn’t affect his game. he still played great. then apparently he went overboard lifting huge weights and hurt his back. His golf pretty much suffered ever since.
I have played with him when he was going through his troubles and his swing didn’t really look any different. he would still hit some great shots but his bad ones became hard to find or even recover from.
I am glad he is playing well again. I think he was a really understated person by the media because he wasn’t as outgoing as a Tiger or Phil. he is intelligent, gives very thoughtful answers to questions posed to him and has other interests besides golf to keep himself amused.
Many people who scaled great heights only to fall flat (Baker-Finch, Bill Rogers, Clampett,) never really made it back to the big stage. So I am glad he has persevered and regained some confidence in his ability again.
He says that once he became No.1 and won a major he felt flat because he had climbed some of the mountain. Maybe he lost some desire after that but losing desire wouldn’t make your game go as far south as his did. I think when he injured himself from working out his body couldn’t handle the rotation part of his swing any more and compensations were made due to that strong grip and he lost his game and then his confidence

You can see just how thin he became when these photos are compared

Thanks for sharing that Shome, indeed an interesting insight to a great player. Shows just how fickle it can all be too, he certainly seems to have held his dignity if not his game for the interim, respect to him for that.

I just read that article whitednj…. I think I was maybe pretty close to explaining how his injury brought in bad habits that compounded before he knew what to do next…then he lost his confidence and the questions never stopped coming
Hopefully his good play this week answered some of those questions

Good insights showme..

Thanks..

I didn’t watch the Open today, after watching the guys the day before hitting the greens and HOLDING the greens from the second cut of rough… it’s not what I think of as a US Open.

In my qualifying I couldn’t hold the greens with an 8 iron nor a wedge from the middle of the fairway.. super hard greens and the low spinning modern ball. with classic blades without box grooves or milled faces.

I have no idea what they are doing out there other than it still appears missing fairways is not the penalty I feel it should be.

When I miss a fairway here at Mare Island, I am lucky to even find my ball….. yet alone have a swing or a shot.

I remember watching the US Open back in the 1980’s when guys were having to literally wedge out from the rough, advance the ball maybe 100 yards.. and that’s it. Curtis Strange won, and Scott Simpson won because they hit it straight and missed very few fairways.

Has anyone seen the latest Golf Digest? Apparently there is a very insightful article from Nick Price about his take on the state of the game.

If anyone can post that here that would be great..

G’day all,

Lag, I know you hate seeing the game as it is and I understand that, but watching all four rounds, I had a different view to you. Sure you are a professional and I’m a hack, but my observations were these….

Alot of the guys were holding the greens because they had THAT MUCH RAIN over the 5 days, that it wouldn’t matter if they were hitting into cement greens, they would have got spin. Point taken, the grooves probably help, but I reckon you would of held a number of greens in those conditons using your gear??
.
I saw plenty of guys chipping out of the rough, alot of the times sideways and even backwards… no advancing there. I didn’t see too many full shots out of the rough turn out to be cracking shots. It was the minority not the majority.

The winner was at -4, second at -2, the cut was at +5(ish). That’s tough golf in anyones books. That course was long, tight and had scarey rough.

Anyway, not to get off track with your thread…. talk to me about pressure points that you use/teach. I guess for swingers (me!) and hitters (yourself and others of course) I’m just touching on them indirectly with The Dart and finding it very interesting…

Thanks

dcee

I think you make a good point dcee. The truth is they couldn’t cut the greens, only roll them.

In this case I almost wish they could have a ‘re-do’ on the U.S. Open. It felt very… mediocre and not near the test it would have been without all the rain.

Still I look forward to 2012(?) when it goes back to the Merion where Hogan took that famous one iron to the 18th green to force a playoff… or ‘the Monster’ as he originally described it. That should be a good one!

Has anyone seen the latest Golf Digest? Apparently there is a very insightful article from Nick Price about his take on the state of the game.

I do have it. In it Nick says he had the distinct advantage of being a very straight driver of the ball but says he ‘lost that advantage’ once the large metal faces came out.

Something else caught my eye in this month’s Golf Digest though. Rory McIlroy is featured in the swing sequence. And I’ve found today that a lot of ‘modern’ swingers are getting their right shoulders VERY steep at impact. Lag, and Golf Machine people in general have said there is no need for this.

Well I was really surprised at how level a shoulder turn Rory takes with driver. He really tries to keep that upper arm pinned (it flies off at impact) to his right side, but his forearm is on plane. That kid can swing hard…. I hope he doesn’t change too much.

If you can, check it out. His swing isn’t as ‘modern’ as most are these days.

2012 ? I am looking forward to the US Open at Pebble Beach 2010, where else do they hit it off the beach,....literally ?
The scene of many fine battles.

Yep Merion will be cool…. David Graham 1981 US Open… all 18 greens in the final round. love those wicker baskets for flag sticks
When was the last time someone hit 18 greens in a PGA event, let alone the final round of the US Open?

Here you go

Good one Mashie….I hadn’t seen that either. Now I know people carry on about Lag saying things about equipment and accuracy and how the game isn’t the game it was intended to be and I sometimes say things about equipment and driving accuracy etc…. but when someone like Nick Price says it….well it holds even more bearing

he can come out and say what he believes because he has money….his next dollar isn’t coming from XYZ company to promote their gear…....he doesn’t need to be politically correct and say everything the equipment companies want to hear….. He went through the cycle and saw the changes…..and what he says makes absolute perfect sense.

Thank goodness we aren’t insane with our line of thinking Lag …..... Pricey would be a coup to have in the field for the next Persimmon Open, wouldn’t he !!!!!

Thanks Mashie,

Started with a rustle but the winds of change may be starting to blow.

Surely someone listens when a golfer of Nick Price’s stature says he believes there are significant problems with the game??? Do the living Hall of Famers ever get together as a group and make recommendations to the R & A / USGA?

Interesting he named and shamed Vijay, for “making a mockery of the game”. Guess they have played some Presidents Cups together, is there some history of animosity?

If it all rolls into amateur golf, changed grooves, back to the B51’s and a new handicapping system, I might be getting a shot a hole.

MS, Jack Nicklaus has been talking about the ball going too far for a long time now. If the powers that be won’t listen to him then they won’t listen to Nicky sadly.

I’ve said before that the best chance for something to happen is the Masters organising committee bringing out a tournament ball. As I see it, they are the only ones who could do it and still have a tournament everyone would want to play in.

I think Lag has touched on this by talking about today’s ball being a “no spin” ball…... I really think the ball will be scaled back ever so slightly next year. These guys honestly will not be able to hit the shots they are used to hitting with regular grooves….. the ball will have to alter slightly to give it a hair more spin to be able to launch and hold better…..here’s hoping.
It may not happen immediately but it will happen once guys begin to realize they aren’t actually as good as they thought they were because they can’t hold a green from any type of rough or poor lie…some will moan and the companies will have to downscale the balls affect to suit the slighter changed playing field…. Thank goodness

Styles… I posted a big long story from Nicklaus in the equipment thread about the ball…..and you are right. If The Masters came up with that novel approach for a one type (or one pattern) ball…....I think everyone would still come and play!!!
Getting them to TPC Southwind and all using the same ball may be a little more difficult!!

Don’t mean to be picky Prot, but the ‘monster’ US Open course that Ben Hogan referred to was Oakland Hills Michigan during the 1951 Open (the year after Merion hosted the Open and that famous photo). Merion is in fact the shortest (or was!) of the unofficial US Open courses and universally considered to be in the world top ten (also famous for the site of the last leg of Bobby Jones Grand Slam).
The golf website www.golfclubatlas.com will give great desciptions/playing reviews of both these famous courses. Regards,

Pete

Correct Lag…..I thought those 2 photos would make a great comparison…the body and hands and in almost identical positions in the downswing….the shaft flex is not
I know myself…I would much rather be in the Norman position than be in the Immelman position just because of what I have learned from you about compression , and control
As you say….there are no mysteries when compared

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Surely that photo of immelman is an illusion created by the camera not the real flex of the shaft?

Nope. Reality. Read Wishon’s article on The Shaft as a transmission in the Fitting section of the golf school.

We’ll a few of us “old timers” (Geeze I’m 45) have spouted off a lot about how ridiculous golf has become with the new age of gear and the ball..

But I really think the best solution is to just simply split the game into two versions of golf..

I think an excellent example is auto racing..

There are the Indy Cars..

The NASCAR

and the Grand Prix circuit …

different levels of technology for different tracks..
golf should be no different.

There are countless other sports that have split.. and I’m sure the
reasons they did would be the same as golf would, could or should.

I’m sure the more technical race car drivers probably laugh at some of the high speed oval track racing. BORING!

I do feel strongly that TGM has a few important omissions.

Go on then…

BTW, until coming into contact with TGM stuff on this site, I had never heard of any idea like lag or pressure points… it was all, get to this position, get to that position…

Hi Lag,
I heard Tiger interviewed on the radio the other day, and he mentioned how he thought the young players were hitting it too far . . . that the governing bodies needed to do something about it, that the average young pro now is over 6’3” and using the latest equipment to launch the ball too far. I’ll try to find a link to the interview (it was on Australian radio).

Perhaps your idea of golf needing someone like Tiger to speak out against the changes to the game is indeed happening.

here is the link:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/...

Correct Lag…..I thought those 2 photos would make a great comparison…the body and hands and in almost identical positions in the downswing….the shaft flex is not
I know myself…I would much rather be in the Norman position than be in the Immelman position just because of what I have learned from you about compression , and control
As you say….there are no mysteries when compared

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Surely that photo of immelman is an illusion created by the camera not the real flex of the shaft?

The Player who expects a lesson to 'take' without subsequent practice just isn't being honest with himself or fair to his professional
gary Player

What does this mean? I haven’t read Wishon’s article, but I can’t believe Hogan had this much throwaway…

cheesedonkey….. I think that one is a shutter speed problem. Maybe sent the guy that photographs parents in the park having a picnic to the golf that day with the wrong lenses
The Immelman photo has shaft intact …no flickering so it is what it is in that one. You know as one of lag’s students the cause of it.
The shaft in the Hogan photo is flickering and an illusion is made… just like the time delay exposure photos you see of car headlights streaking down a road….it leaves a trail
I have seen a million photos of Hogan (you have too I bet).. and there is no throwaway…except in this case the guy’s camera needed to be thrownaway
Would have been an awesome photo with the shutter speed right and that shaft intact instead of flickering

Yeah, I agree and am happily on board w/ Lag.

This picture just popped out at me—1 b/c of the timing of my finding it (and I wasn’t looking for one like this) and seeing it with the Immelman photo still in my head, and 2 b/c I had never seen a Hogan photo with that effect.

Check out the guy taking the picture behind Hogan’s right shoulder —puts it in perspective a bit…

That Hogan pic looks eerily similar to this famous caricature used in many Hogan advertisements and from his Five Fundamentals book

But I guess if you swung it pure day in day out there would be many look the same

I cant believe with his hands up to the ball that there is so much forward bend in that shaft

“I cant believe with his hands up to the ball that there is so much forward bend in that shaft”

NickE,
If you look a few posts up you will see Showme talking about this. Explained by shutter speed of cameras used back then.

Hogan’s “Power Golf” book from the 1940’s is filled with distorted camera lens photos.. the modern lens’ and shutter speeds don’t have that issue..

You can strike a golf ball fairly well trying to “time” the three kick action of shaft throwaway, and it is very important to understand the difference between hitting and swinging… but trying to time the shaft kick of stress, unstress, then into impact makes golf much more difficult than it needs to be.. however, there are plenty of ball beaters who will spend many a long afternoon trying to get it.. tough stuff …

I like to just get out of the car, walk the the first tee and strike it down the middle of the fairway without having to hit balls..

to each their own.

Hold the flex…

deliver a well loaded shaft down to P3, fire the hands into the ball with all your might, and holding shaft flex all the way to the ball is possible.

’ÄúI cant believe with his hands up to the ball that there is so much forward bend in that shaft”

NickE,
If you look a few posts up you will see Showme talking about this. Explained by shutter speed of cameras used back then.

Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goal. _{Henry Ford
Excellence is not a skill. It is an attitude.} Ralph Marston
Wherever you go, go with all your heart. ~Confucius

I know the Hogans photos are due the shutter of the old SLR Cameras we have been through that before in this thread, my comment was directed towards the immelman shot.

The difference between a focal plane shutter and an octopus eye shutter.

If the camers was turned upside down the shaft would appear bent the other way.

For tuition in Sydney call 0412 070 820.

Explaination by Dart

With the high speed photography and shutter speeds available today, and even some vidoe’s capable of 1/20,000 of a second capture, the forward bows have been documented.

How the shafts behave per Release method is also now known. The later the uncocking the less forward bow. Early Release has it bow forward then come back into line with the shaft into impact. Middle Release still has some bow look.
There was a rumor this will be shown in Wishon’s next book.

In normal day video capture, the shutter speeds are limited and still only play back at 25 frames per second which can show the ‘old day’ bends.

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Same swing as Monty?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen Monty in a skirt

Totally different ..Mickey gets her top half back behind the ball.. Monty doesn’t because Monty tilts his shoulders up and down on a vertical axis…he doesn’t rotate them around or back and through…

Monty’s swing has little rotation..it is up and down like a pendulum clock…couldn’t teach that to perform well…he just knows how to deliver it somehow and trust what he’s doing

This was taken a few years back when Monty was really playing well..
Lots of good things going on…

That one looks a bit better…he must have been having a bad hair day when they shot the ones I posted or someone had got hold of him and messed with it all. I knew he had a bit of a vertical swing but not as bad as the shots I posted above
Not hard to see why he was so consistent for so many years when you look at the swing sequence you posted Lag
I saw one of the best ball striking exhibitions ever one day when I played with Monty..didn’t make a putt over 7 or 8 feet and shot about 10 under

Did you call him Aunty SMTM ?

I certainly didn’t call him Mrs Doubtfire.. he didn’t care for that

Your away Aunty

I don't think I've ever seen Monty in a skirt

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

LOL

I tell a lie pippolo….on his wedding day

I am making a statement for a kilt to be classified as a skirt

I tell a lie pippolo….on his wedding day

I am making a statement for a kilt to be classified as a skirt

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Which ones the chick ?

I tell a lie pippolo….on his wedding day

I am making a statement for a kilt to be classified as a skirt

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Well, at least you can tell he was very happy that day.

And yes, call it as you like, that’s a skirt!

If you make a good enough golf ball, you won’t have to pay players to use it… here’s proof..

If you make a good enough golf ball, you won't have to pay players to use it… here's proof..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

How old is that ad Lag?

I love how it says these shafts will promote a tendency to swing correctly despite human error!

1963

The Hogan company was still in the speed slot technology for over 25 years, well into the late 1980’s. Same head really. Beautiful stuff. I have one I’m looking to reshaft soon and have a go at it..

Ah yes, the old speed slot from Ben Hogan. I used to have an old speed slot 4-wood that must have stayed in my bag for at least 10 years..

I was wondering something. If your right elbow and hozel each had a laser pointing straight down into the ground from P3 to P4, would they draw concentric semi-circles on the ground? Assume the laser on the hozel always points down somehow even though the clubface rotates. Would I see two nicely scribed arcs from the bird's eye view? Or does the frozen right elbow have a different center?

I actually like that as a visual… or a feeling…

It actually will point on plane but it should never look or appear
to you that it would… that’s the key, and it took me a long time to
figure that out..

Things really need to both look and feel “off plane” for things to actually be “on plane”..

What we need to know is what it needs to feel like, and that is what I spend the most time on when working with students.

It can really be quite shocking!

As usual, thanks for the feedback…Just trying to add visuals where they might apply even though one might not think so initially

Now if you fight that expanding circle action, you have to use an angle hinge, no wrist roll and the club is released by the rotation of the body. If you stand behind a golfer with this motion, the hands will quickly disappear around the body after impact… kind of like cutting it left. This is more the Mac O Grady motion. Hogan was all about this too. By pulling the club out of it's natural longitudinal orbit,
you create a massive amount of pressure in your hands, on all three pressure points. This pressure in your hands is FEEL! and this is the feel that you can learn to utilize to control the ball exactly how you want to…. a three yard draw, a five yard fade, low, high, it's all yours if you can learn to do it. Warning! You have to have strong arms and hands if you are planning on rotating fast and hitting it far!

On top of that, you have to learn what I believe to be the most difficult swing move in all of golf. Straightening the right arm out quickly on the downswing…while the torso turns flat or at right angles to the spine or axis. It's a great move to master though, because if you can do it, you can't ever get over the top of the shot and pull it.
For those who are still confused, it feels like you are coming right over the top to hit a big pull shot, but instead, that hands move straight down, as if they are going to land in your right hip pocket, but your shoulders are turning as flat a a 15th century spanish globe.

I have seen that move win a lot of money and tournaments.

I want to thank many of you in this forum (Lag, Showme, Guru, Bio, Dart, etc.). I’m very technical by nature being an engineer. The esoteric instruction doesn’t work with me as I need a procedure or at least some explanation as to why I need to do something. Much of the more technical instruction out there is crap and has been crap for a long time.

Lag: your explanation of feel, what you are trying to accomplish, and procedure really helped. It isn’t enough to tell a student to “hit the inside quadrant” of the golf ball or “lock everything in place and sweep with the body”. There are a myriad of ways to do those things and 95% of them are not serviceable or powerful. The other 4.9% do not lend themselves to repeatability or precision.

I’ve taken the time (a lot of time ;) to read from post 1 to the present and distilled much of the knowledge so graciously given and the anecdotes so well told. Thank you and I look forward to more.

A little story about old equipment and golfing on Father’s day (I know I’m a bit late, but came to this forum late ;).

Lag, Showme and others have expounded upon the positive virtues of persimmon and the heavy, v-grooved irons of old. Game improvement, ball striking, shot making, etc.

After doing some reading I decided to play with my normal group of weekend warriors (all 30 or so of us) and my father’s clubs for that special day. My father passed away some 7 years ago, so while I can’t enjoy golf with him anymore I thought that this was the next best thing. He has a full set of ‘69 Hogan 1+ bounce soles – Equilizer thru 3 iron (probably a lot like the ones lag has). Also, persimmon Hogan 1, 3, 4, 5, and 7 woods. The only bad thing is that they have aluminum shafts. Oh, and I also threw in my old Titleist bulls-eye putter.

Just a little background – I’m 44 and started playing golf seriously just when the Taylormade metal burner hit the scene. I learned playing mostly the persimmons and maple laminate clubs. While I am not a purist, I enjoy playing blades. I have Mizuno Trues that I love. Before that was the Mizuno Grads. Before that, was some nasty set of Acushnets.

Here is what I came away with on my round. The Hogan blades are true surgical instruments. Keep in mind… I love my Mizuno’s, but if my dad’s old clubs didn’t have aluminum shafts in them now, they’d be in my bag. I was maybe a club short (probably because of the shafts), but the feel and balance on those irons is nothing short of superb. The woods were excellent too. God, I miss the sound of wood (and the clack of metal spikes). Only got 240-250 on the driver from my swing, but they were all so workable. I love having the mass of the head without seeing 400cc’s of metal. The seven-wood head is the size of a baby’s fist, but man could you smoke the ball with it.

Shot an easy 79 and didn’t feel I was giving away much of anything to “old” technology. (I’m a 5 hcp)

Just thought I’d share.
Cheers.

I would be interested to know who is the modern day banner boy of the TGM?

Don’t tell me it is still Bobby Clampett who is floundering around on the Nationwide Tour presumably waiting to join the Seniors.

I have read all the posts and all related posts and it strikes me you will all suffer from paralysis by analysis in the long run.

I would suggest if a modern day touring pro subscribed to this theory he would have trouble winning a penny on any tour.

I tried this for a while many years ago when I got to a 1 handicap in the hope to improve and I became a basket case. It took me over 2 years to get back to where I started. I guess you will all just say I didn’t stick at it long enough or didn’t have the natural ability to turn :theory into reality. 3 practice sessions a week and 2 rounds was not enough!

Brian Gay has made a couple of pennies this year.

He has and I have backed him twice and made some pennies along with him. Very straight short hitter who has no weaknesses in his game.

Not likely to win a major unless courses are dry and fast.

I was unaware he was TGM.

Lynn Blake is his coach, TGM all the way I believe. I don’t think he is ‘short’, still averages 268 on his drives (192nd), can hit longer but opts for accuracy. He is pretty good with his long irons too. His wins this year were pretty convincing, few shots up on the rest. Major? Time will tell.

BTW, he’s 3rd in driving accuracy.

From his site -

“In the summer of 1980, Lynn was an avid amateur golfer who had hit the wall in his study of The Golfing Machine¬Æ. His only recourse was to telephone the author, Homer Kelley. Thus began the student-teacher relationship that was to last until Mr. Kelley’s death in February 1983.

More calls followed over the next 18 months, with Homer patiently explaining the science and principles behind his great work, and Lynn eagerly absorbing his lessons.”

My point exactly, it is so complicated that unless you have a pro guiding you every step of the way, you will all hit the wall!

It’s always best to have a good teacher, nothing so unusual about that. It seems to me that many golfers hit the wall at some point anyhow, they certainly seem to go through coaches at every level. It’s nice to have a way to get through it and explore all your options.

From his site -

’ÄúIn the summer of 1980, Lynn was an avid amateur golfer who had hit the wall in his study of The Golfing Machine¬Æ. His only recourse was to telephone the author, Homer Kelley. Thus began the student-teacher relationship that was to last until Mr. Kelley's death in February 1983.

More calls followed over the next 18 months, with Homer patiently explaining the science and principles behind his great work, and Lynn eagerly absorbing his lessons.”

My point exactly, it is so complicated that unless you have a pro guiding you every step of the way, you will all hit the wall!

Shanks you need to think about in the way That the Golf Machine is like a instruction manual to built boats the problem is most players are trying to bulit an oceanliner when all they need is a row boat

Nick E

I guess I tried to build an oceanliner but when I went back to my row boat after 18 months of concerted effort under the TGM spell it had sunk and I had lost my oars.

It took me almost a year of unlearning TGM to go from a 3 handicap back to 1.

I guess this ultimately comes down to whether golf is art or science. I suspect it is a bit of both, my misgiving is TGM is far too orienated toward science and inhibits ones natural ability to hit a ball.

I will aways maintain to the day I die you swing a golf club and hit a ball. This great debate under the TGM banner as to whether you are a swinger or a hitter is to me semantics, it is surely all in the hands and what they do.

The great Henry Cotton emphasised the hands and he could sure golf his ball.

18 months in a leaky boat
I like the cut of your jib Shanks

Thanks Waffle

I would be interested if all the other TGM devotees could read my opening forays into this fascinating subject.

Are any of you stuck up a creek without a paddle looking for different leavers to get the boat going again?

If you don’t find new leavers you will “lag” behind the golfers who return to art rather than science and that will surely put you under renewed “pressure” to find some new leavers to get the boat going again.

Seriously let me hear your improvement stories or otherwise under TGM. Handicap reduction is the ultimate measure, not how your swing feels and what you think you might be capable of when you have finally got the entire TGM mantra.

I would have thought that having so many options in TGM that with appropriate application could enhance ones natural ability? The principles in TGM seem to be applicable to a wide variety of styles or swings, so there is no one TGM way to do it, apart from the imperatives I guess? Maybe in that year of getting back to 1 you didn’t unlearn TGM but actually assimilated it? Just a thought.
As far as it being in the hands, isn’t that TGM? Educated hands?

Stinkler

You make a very good point and I would have to agree in studying and dedicating myself to TGM I am sure some of it did indeed assimilate.

Fo me though it got so technical it freed my ability to make a natural swing at the ball. I went from a consistent gentle draw (hands related) to hitting it very straight on a good day to completely wild on a bad day. The lack of consistency dropped my confidence to the point I just didn’t believe in it any more.

My short game also suffered because I was so devoted to getting the TGM into my long game.

Educated hands – whatever doctrine you study you hands/wrists need to hinge on the backswing and release at the ball, same goes for any sport where you hit a ball, baseball being the classic example, watch a power hitter snap his wrists at impact. they generally make excellent drivers of a golf ball because they have “got” the release move

Yep, paralysis through analysis can be a very bad thing.This is where I believe it’s the teacher that needs to analyse and the student to assimilate. The problem arises when the student is the teacher too, it’s a very hard one to balance. I wouldn’t be so quick as to ‘blame’ the complexities in TGM. In the quest to learn I think we gain much information from many sources before it is understood. It only takes 5 seconds to find out that a FLW is a preferable position for impact, it may take months, years or a lifetime to learn it.
I like Darts attitude, keep things simple and just get better at doing them.

I might add I’m not good at golf. I am bloody good at what I do though and I know that in times of intense practice and application, I’m not at my performance best. Later when I’m not practicing is when all that hard work pays off and becomes part of my ability, I no longer think, just do. I hope to get some of that in to my golf game.

Have you ever been in the zone Stinky ?

In golf? I was thinking about that today. My best golf has happened after a rough start. That’s when I stop thinking I’m on a roll, a good score is coming!! My big problem is projecting the result, counting as I go, dreaming of the best score ever, of the big WIN! Had a bad start a few weeks back and thought, fuck it, I’m done, then I pared the last 10 holes! Winning didn’t even cross my mind.
I know the mental zone, I go there all the time when I play music. I need to find that spot in golf and my game will improve immensely.

I found it today, just thinking of course management and error reduction, my mind cleared, just thinking of the next shot, and sitting at home now 5 hours later my mind is still clear.

Fantastic, love that, well done. Hold that thought!!!!!

Its a good thing

This thread is drifting from the ‘science” of TGM to the “art” of golf.

The mind is a powerful tool and controls not only our body motions that golf the ball but also our emotions and our confidence levels and expectations which also having a huge impact on how you golf your ball.

TGM does not go there because that is not scientific and is very difficult to teach and learn. Art and stiinkler music being art comes from a different place.

Sorry Shanks,
Don’t put down Stinky hes a clever guy

But we digress, I cannot wait to see you go with shorthitter

This is Lags thread, he is a great technician, but also an artist in the game of golf. I think there is room for both here, but it’s his call.

Hey Shanks, I’m a little confused by your last post actually, could read a couple of ways?? What’s your point? More art or more science?

Did not intend to put down Stinkler, quite the opposite in fact, music = art which I think is more than 50% of golf

Lookin forward to seeing heaps of posts from you Shanks

Hope to contribute something worthwhile with 34 years golfing experience I would like to think some things I might have to say will hit the mark with some of the ISGer’s

I guess I am now more into the mind influencing the outcome which I consider more art than science.

Tell me this, how do I know I am going to play well somedays on the way to the course in the car and other days I know no matter how hard I try it just is not going to work. It is not down to technique! This might be a completely different thread which I don’t want to hijack from lag.

Started this thread where we can follow these thoughts if ya like?

Stinkler

You make a very good point and I would have to agree in studying and dedicating myself to TGM I am sure some of it did indeed assimilate.

Fo me though it got so technical it freed my ability to make a natural swing at the ball. I went from a consistent gentle draw (hands related) to hitting it very straight on a good day to completely wild on a bad day. The lack of consistency dropped my confidence to the point I just didn't believe in it any more.

My short game also suffered because I was so devoted to getting the TGM into my long game.

Educated hands – whatever doctrine you study you hands/wrists need to hinge on the backswing and release at the ball, same goes for any sport where you hit a ball, baseball being the classic example, watch a power hitter snap his wrists at impact. they generally make excellent drivers of a golf ball because they have ’Äúgot” the release move

Shanks going to pick you up on the bit in bold. A well timed release is very hard to achieve, much better to maintain the bent right wrist through impact. Very few individuals possess the hand/eye co-ordination to do it repeatedly and effectively. Most of the time they straighten the right wrist early and thats why 90% of golfers are hackers.

Lynn Blake describes it thus:

“Every other sport has a straightening right wrist through impact, golf is not like that and no one remembered to tell the right wrist”

See the DVD “Alignment Golf” for more details.

Are you quoting a chick Styles ?

lol, I doubt Yoda would thank you for describing his name as a chick’s!

If people disguise their name…
Its not my fault

Nick E

I guess I tried to build an oceanliner but when I went back to my row boat after 18 months of concerted effort under the TGM spell it had sunk and I had lost my oars.

It took me almost a year of unlearning TGM to go from a 3 handicap back to 1.

I guess this ultimately comes down to whether golf is art or science. I suspect it is a bit of both, my misgiving is TGM is far too orienated toward science and inhibits ones natural ability to hit a ball.

I will aways maintain to the day I die you swing a golf club and hit a ball. This great debate under the TGM banner as to whether you are a swinger or a hitter is to me semantics, it is surely all in the hands and what they do.

The great Henry Cotton emphasised the hands and he could sure golf his ball.

Just Wondering if you were guided in this change or were you doing it alone?