Let's talk Lag's Golf Machine (pages 140-149)
iseekgolfguru
Jul 02 2009 13:32
Page 140

How to utilise the info within TGM, how you learn it yourself, and who you learn it from will together determine if you are learning ‘a pattern’ or ‘attempting to improve your own.’

If you played off a 1 and went back to a 3 and got lost in the process that “getting lost” is the key.

Not getting the hit or swing shows a foggy bunch of rocks for your battleship to avoid. Semantics they are not. If the concept at that level is not really grasped then your mental ‘belief’ in anything a coach is telling you is unfounded and apt to ‘I will try it’ but that leads to ‘if its not working then its crap’ and off to reinvent a wheel.

Aside from those thoughts, your input shows just how important the mental side of the game is. Our minds create the art of the shot required. Our mechanics produce it, and not necessarily but physically joining the dots but by getting out of our own way to produce it via known mechanics.

waffle_iron
Jul 02 2009 13:54
Page 140

pure wisdom

the greatest game ever played

lagpressure
Jul 02 2009 15:11
Page 140

TGM can be very complicated for those that feel they need to understand every nut, bolt and screw of the golf swing..

However, TGM can also be very simple and basic by utilizing some of the very basic procedures..

One of my favorite quotes from Homer:

“Complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”

Now is golf an art or a science? It is both…

I studied TGM about as hard as anyone, went out on tour and got my ass kicked, and had to re think a few things..

I realized that TGM is not a method, it is a language more than anything.. it’s a way for us to speak a similar language and discuss concepts and ideas with a bit more certainty in definition.

In the old days there was a lot of well intended “lingo” like,
your just coming off the ball,

or extend back and extend through.. I think I posted a whole slew of
teaching cliches a few pages back.

I really think Homer pretty much had everything right.. he didn’t quite get some of the internal pressure stuff that only a good player can really describe.

I’ve said before, twenty reads over chapter 2 and 6 will get you the basics of what you need to really understand.. It’s easy to get sidetracked into all the crazy nonsense variations..

TGM has become a lot like religion I suppose.. someone says something 100’s or 1000’s of years ago, and then everyone claims they have the correct interpretation in their modern times…
it just goes on and on..

Personally I think Homer has been terribly misunderstood. I did a really deep introspective re read of the entire book earlier this year,
I took notes, and really tried to make sense of what I could.. and I really think Homer’s work is a masterpiece of golfing observation.
However, from what I have seen both first hand and second hand, I do question the interpretations of many of the TGM high priests.

At some point I will make my assessment of Homer’s work available for those interested. For the most part, I am very supportive of TGM. I think there are a few missing pieces that I hope can be helpful and clear a few things up, and keep people on a positive path of TGM based improvement.

Hitting or swinging, the golf swing is an organic, dynamic motion powered by the core of the pivot, properly sequencing that action,
and then transferring a series of opposing forces quickly and methodically that in the end puts those forces into the hands and finally into the shaft and the clubhead.

It is a very complicated procedure obviously or we would see many more people mastering the game than we do. There are of course some that get it much easier and sooner than others..

What I don’t like seeing.. is people spending months if not years working on faulty or misinterpreted concepts.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Shanks4ever
Jul 02 2009 21:26
Page 140

Great thread lag, guru, styles and Nick E you really do know your TGM. It is just like dejavu!

Please excuse me for this 1 long post to expose my credentials to all of you and gain your undoubted wisdom in the future hopefullly?-

Background

Played cricket as a youngster and copied Terry Alderman and became a pretty good swing bowler with no coaching. Got bored with cricket at 20 and took up golf after basically playing a couple of rounds at the local public each year from 14 -20, best score was 96.

Was at uni but my father swore I majored in golf. In the space of 4 years moved my handicap from 27 to 1 by basically emulating who I thought was the best golfer in the club I joined with similar bodysize/shape to me. (followed the cricket lead by just “aping” somebody who could do it) He was the best by the way because I watched him when I joined the club come 2nd to a young Peter Senior in a SA open. As an aside I caddied for Bob Shaw in that tournament who was one of the 1st Australians to win on the PGA tour. (Talahassee open I believe) He paid well and I bought myself a new set of maxfli blades which I later sold to the great kiwi golfer Walter Godfrey. They went well with my eye-o-matic 1 and 4 wood.

I got to 1 pretty quickly and thought the game was easy but what bugged me was my inconsistency. On a good day I shot 4 – 6 under and a bad day was 6 – 8 over. I realised I did not know anything about the swing and could not fix myself on bad days. It normally took a number of sessions to get the feel back. I figured if I could get consistency I would have a shot at my dream of turning pro.

At that time somebody suggested TGM to me if I wanted to know what really went on in the swing. Bobby Clampett was my idol at the time and knowing he was TGM got me hooked. I went into it full on in the beginning without a coach just practicing what I learned in the rumpus room without hitting balls for nearly a month.

When I went to the range the pureness of my shots amazed me. I then had a pennant season upon me and what I found was that I unravelled under pressure.

Approximately 4 months later I thought I was lost in the science of the book and somebody suggested I read Gerry Hogans book who used a lot of TGM and made it a lot simpler. He did, my best on the range was amazing, my worst on the course when under the gun was appaling. I then by a stroke of luck found a coach who was a Gerry disciple and had lessons from him for nearly a year.

I could hit it pure on the range in front of him after a little explanation of what to do and what I should feel but could never translate it to the course except when playing on my own. Feel was it for me which I put more to art than science.

I made the decision that TGM has set me back nearly 2 years and I had drifted from 1 – 4 handicap in the search for consistency.

I decided I needed to go back to being a feel golfer following my art theme rather than a scientific theme that TGM espoused. I got back to 1 but never improved further.

Did I learn anything from TGM, plenty and I guess I was doing a lot of the things naturally without knowing it. Do I use TGM today, sure often without knowing I am doing it and I think you will never know everything.

The excellent thread started from this thread, mind over matter, art vs science by stinkler is where I am out now. D2BG explained my “failure” with TGM in his post, I will never be an extrinsic learner (mind based) which is rule based which is what TGM is all about, I am an Intrinsic learner which is more focused on the body.

I will never have the time to devote to TGM or the hours of practice it takes so I prefer to attempt to master my mind which takes a lot less practice indoors at night.

Good luck to all you on the TGM journey, it is fantastic if you can devote a lot of time and effort.

My handicap by the way drifts between 4 and 6 so I guess some of the TGM principles and some of the natural ability must still be there some 25 years later.

waffle_iron
Jul 02 2009 22:50
Page 140

Gerry Hogan the ex copper from Armidale ?

the greatest game ever played

Shanks4ever
Jul 02 2009 23:03
Page 140

Dont know waffle, age and too much wine has dulled my memory

Styles
Jul 03 2009 02:06
Page 140

Shanks, thank you for your comments and your story. I am very much a novice in TGM and defer to the other experts you mentioned.

In my opinion, the people most worth listening too in the golfing world right now are Lag, Lynn Blake, Dart and Guru.

I’m sorry to hear about your troubles taking your game from the range to the course but when you think about it, that is a mental issue not a mechanical issue isn’t it?

I was a decent golfer (by most people’s standards) but wanted to get better. This was back in 1999. I had got my handicap down to 4.2 but I knew that a lot of that was down to timing and a good short game. I went to a pro (not TGM) who told me I needed to rebuild – he was right. For the next year and a half I went for regular lessons. On the range I was hitting the ball pure, but I couldn’t score. Finally at the start of 2001 I rang and said I was quitting with him. All my mates said I was a better player before and my handicap had risen to 5.6 He said, look you are striping it on the range come see me one more time. I did and he changed a few set up alignments and went and played. That season I finished at 2.2 I won just about everything I played in.

However, for the same reasons I went to him, I looked for something new. I discovered the mental side and put effort into it culminating in attending a 3 day workshop with Dr Karl Morris. It was at that workshop I heard about Mike Hebron and Carey Mumford. It was when searching for Carey that I found iseek and TGM.

This was new to me, The Golfing Machine????? What the heck was that? All I knew was from listening to pundits on the bbc and reading Golf World/Monthly!

TGM opened new doors to me. After reading the forums on here for a while I took the plunge and contacted Paul Smith (golfguru) and we began distance learning. It was tough but immediately I knew I was hitting the ball better than I ever had – by a long, long way. I suddenly knew what compressing the golf ball was about, what lag was. My game wasn’t getting better but I knew I was playing better. My handicap went from 2.2 to 3.9 Still I knew I was playing better. I started reading this thread of Lag’s when he first joined and more truth became revealed. I have worked with Lag on his first module. I have had my profile done by Carey Mumford.

All of these things have been crucial in getting me to where I am today, playing golf around par with only my short game holding me back.

What I mean to say in my verbose way is that TGM is truth and sometimes we have to get a little worse before we get better.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Captain_Chaos
Jul 03 2009 02:07
Page 140

That’d be him. I’ve been “talking” to Gerry for years through e-mail and over Skype. Very giving and knowledgable man. Hates bullshit, hypocracy and idiots though. (don’t we all ;)

He’s flirting a bit with another book, doing some deals in the U.S., and indulging new insights with music, sound, etc. Plus he’s a consumate family man.

A lot of wisdom there, but a bit abstract in his explanations too. He’s a right brained thinker and I’m the opposite and trying to get better. ;) I need some procedure to latch onto. After that I can try and switch gears a bit.

Lag, I have a question for you. I’m hitting the ball extremely high. The distance is good (8 iron – 153 yards), but very, very high. I haven’t attempted the higher level ball striking stuff that you’ve alluded to because I’m ingraining the attack from 4:30 and accelerate and increase the pressure past impact hitting aspects. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks again for everything you do.

Cheers,
Scott

waffle_iron
Jul 03 2009 02:42
Page 140

That'd be him. I've been ’Äútalking” to Gerry for years through e-mail and over Skype. Very giving and knowledgable man. Hates bullshit, hypocracy and idiots though. (don't we all ;)

He's flirting a bit with another book, doing some deals in the U.S., and indulging new insights with music, sound, etc. Plus he's a consumate family man.

A lot of wisdom there, but a bit abstract in his explanations too. He's a right brained thinker and I'm the opposite and trying to get better. ;) I need some procedure to latch onto. After that I can try and switch gears a bit.

Lag, I have a question for you. I'm hitting the ball extremely high. The distance is good (8 iron – 153 yards), but very, very high. I haven't attempted the higher level ball striking stuff that you've alluded to because I'm ingraining the attack from 4:30 and accelerate and increase the pressure past impact hitting aspects. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks again for everything you do.

Cheers,
Scott

If you are reffering to Gerry Hogan Captain Chaos please refer him to this site, thanks

the greatest game ever played

stinkler
Jul 03 2009 09:43
Page 140

I second that. I’ve read his book and found it very good, especially at dispelling myths and letting me get on with the game.

While here, Styles, great post mate. I believe you can get much better at this game and it wont reflect immediately in you scores. My short game has always been reasonable (not great!) and it has saved me strokes. The thing is now I’m hitting the ball so much better and my short game is just ‘shorter’ as I’m getting closer on my second, if that makes sense?

Patience and persistence will see the score come down, but for now I know I can strike the ball better than ever.

iseekgolfguru
Jul 03 2009 10:54
Page 140

Hit the Search for Gerry and you will find that he is well thought of by many of us within ISG. I ‘got’ his stuff and found TGM was the kick on. Gerrys full swinging explanations on the old vidoe “the challenge” were magic.

The only thing he did not get was PP#3. But he knew what lag was and how to generate it.

Shanks4ever
Jul 03 2009 22:19
Page 140

Taking up golf from a cricket background when I learned you didn’t want to hit the ball in the air so you took the bat back closed with no pronation. Applying the same technique to golf this led to amazing duck hooks especially with the driver unless I “held” the hinge coming down. It always felt like I was trying to block the ball by artificially holding off the release..

I figured out supination/pronation by watching baseballers hitting home runs and instantly the duck hooks were gone.

From that background I found pronation and then supination were the key to my golf swing which I think was very difficult to comprehend in TGM. I think Homer referred to it as “turning”.

Do you think he addressed what I see as a key to the golf swing adequately?

I am not sure what you all think but I know if I pronate properly I can swing as hard as I like and the left side of the fairway is out of the equation which creates a lot of consistency.

iseekgolfguru
Jul 03 2009 23:57
Page 140

Well yes. Hinge action and the #3 power accumulator roll rate.
Add that to a FLW with a Finish Swivel and its all there and where it needs to be too. Control and power.

Loren
Jul 05 2009 02:34
Page 140

Yes.
He called pronation “turn” onto the plane, and supination “roll” into impact, and “swivel” into finish, left hand palm up, back of the flat left wrist on the plane. Lose the lag and you can’t do that.

Baseball hitters demonstrate that but their snap supination is a finish swivel not a roll into impact. They uncock the wrist into impact without thought of a “roll” because they don’t have a clubface to worry about.

There’s an interesting thought. Baseball hitters never “flip” the end of the bat past the hands before impact, but golfing hackers do it all the time. Maybe it’s the weight versus the length of the tool, the force acquired being a ton or more in the club head.

If they miss the ball, baseball hitters will sometimes automatically let go the right hand and “fly” the left arm to avoid flipping the left wrist and hurting it.

See Golf School article “Control your Clubface”.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

lagpressure
Jul 05 2009 15:50
Page 140

Lag, I have a question for you. I'm hitting the ball extremely high. The distance is good (8 iron – 153 yards), but very, very high. I haven't attempted the higher level ball striking stuff that you've alluded to because I'm ingraining the attack from 4:30 and accelerate and increase the pressure past impact hitting aspects. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks again for everything you do.

Cheers,
Scott

Not sure exactly what your question is, hitting it too high?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

NickE
Jul 05 2009 21:52
Page 140

Hey lag just want to know what method you use in short game. Hitting or swinging i’ve always used swinging ala soft hands flw but i would like to know whay you have found perform better under the pump.
thnks
nick

The Player who expects a lesson to ’take’ without subsequent practice just isn’t being honest with himself or fair to his professional
gary Player

Styles
Jul 05 2009 22:34
Page 140

from previous answers I know that Lag prefers to hit his chips, pitches and even putts!

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

waffle_iron
Jul 06 2009 01:47
Page 140

Well if any of you gentlemen could refer Gerry Hogan to this site that would be great, thanks.

the greatest game ever played

lagpressure
Jul 06 2009 07:55
Page 140

I now “hit” everything… because I no longer practice. I am much more interested in ease of application.

For me, anything with the word “swinging” in it means practice..

I spent a lot of time chipping and putting with dead heavy hands and really tapping into that kind of swinging approach to short game methodology.

My best short game years came from that kind of protocol.. but it never stuck.. It never really was me.. because if you really really own it, it’s yours.. and I certainly practiced that enough to own every bit of it..

When I switched to hitting for the long game, I didn’t switch my short game.. and I regret that I didn’t. I have now… and my short game is not too bad with zero practice. Had I done that back when I was on tour, I could have spent more time concentrating on how I was going to play the golf course, and spend more time enjoying the tour life, rather than grinding to find my feel every week.

I like golf to feel easy, tee to green.. not difficult..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

NickE
Jul 06 2009 09:08
Page 140

could you explain your pitching protocol? what it feels like to you? are you trying to make your hand go level left?

The Player who expects a lesson to ’take’ without subsequent practice just isn’t being honest with himself or fair to his professional
gary Player

macs
Jul 06 2009 09:25
Page 140

Lag/guru/Showme
does Tiger have a true bowing of the shaft in this picture. (ALA Immelman)

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

iseekgolfguru
Jul 06 2009 10:15
Page 140

Gerry Hogan the ex copper from Armidale ?

the greatest game ever played

Yes.

iseekgolfguru
Jul 06 2009 10:19
Page 140

Lag/guru/Showme
does Tiger have a true bowing of the shaft in this picture. (ALA Immelman)

This Year goal ’Äúbreak 80” (best 84 twice)

Think shutter speed. Even with a really fast one, the clubhead is traveling faster than the upper portions during the exposure.

Shomethamoney
Jul 06 2009 10:56
Page 140

Yep… I have seen the rest of that sequence (when he came back to play again at the matchplay early in the year).. the shaft is well visible in the rest of the sequence but out of focus on this frame which to me indicates a shutter speed problem

“Now I know why Tigers eat their young”

macs
Jul 06 2009 12:39
Page 140

Thanks Guru/SMTM
Makes sense as the rest of everything is pretty solid FLW, BRW, axis tilt and a firmly planted right foot.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

lagpressure
Jul 06 2009 18:49
Page 141

One thing too is that there is an element of toe dip, that from certain camera angles can appear to be a loss of shaft flex when in fact it is not.. especially for hitters..

I rotate my #3 accumulator very late, so toe dip can appear to be flex going the wrong way.because it can be a bit of a side view… this is one of the problems of two dimensional observation.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Jul 06 2009 18:57
Page 141

could you explain your pitching protocol? what it feels like to you? are you trying to make your hand go level left?

We’ll since I don’t practice anymore.. I keep things pretty simple, and just keep general chipping and pitching along the lines of the rest of my swing…

Very firm but active wrists supported by the pivot.. stance open, weight a bit more on my left foot. I never like to feel I am cutting across the ball, unless in a bunker or a extreme cut or flop shot..

Short backswing, and very accelerating… hands going left post impact, with the head going more down the line is the intent.. so that way there is no disconnect at the #4 pressure point..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Captain_Chaos
Jul 06 2009 23:19
Page 141

Yep….trajectory problem with going too high. I don’t think I’m scooping. The divots are straight and I get a 3 – 5 yard fade, but really high. Comes in handy when I want that shot. ;)

Thanks.

Styles
Jul 07 2009 00:12
Page 141

I read once that someone said the secret of Nicklaus’s success was that he hit a 5 iron higher than most pros hit their 7 iron.

Hitting low is only good (in my opinion, I know Lag differs) if it is very windy or the greens are very soft.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Captain_Chaos
Jul 07 2009 01:49
Page 141

Hey Styles,

I don’t mind being able to hit that high. Used it on Sunday a couple of times when I didn’t start down as smoothly as I should’ve and lost the pressure.

I’m having trouble being able to hit lower and am concerned that I may be doing something incorrect. My read of using the hitting procedure is that I should be able to control my shot with relative ease. I’d just like Lag’s take on high trajectories and his insight on what “pit” I’ve fallen into that is causing the high shot. ;)

Thanks

KevCarter
Jul 07 2009 05:27
Page 141

KevCarter……
ever see Corey Pavin swing in 1991…1995…1999…2003…2009
Same swing………. he always stayed somewhere around the ball without moving his center of gravity back and thru much…. I hazard a guess not much has changed

’ÄúA flute with no holes is not a flute…a donut without a hole is Danish”

EXACTLY. Thank you for making my point. :-)

Kevin

Find a pattern that makes you happy, and have fun!

Kev…..exactly I agree… but in a different way…….he won't be stack and tilting left… he will be using his same swing with the vision in his head of staying left in his swing (even though he won't actually do this)....and everyone will say he's Stack and tilting because he is now on the books
I have said my piece at the stack and tilt thread and it is done….don't drag it over here….. Come write back to me in a year when all that S/T theory goes down the gurgler and you can say I was right then

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

ShowMe,

It hasn’t been a year, but I am back to apologize.

S&T hasn’t gone under by any stretch, but my posts had no place in this wonderful thread. I have become a follower of some wonderful TGM guys like Lynn Blake, Paul Hart, Paul Smith, VJ Trolio, Chuck Evans, Jeff Evans, John Dochety, Loren, Ted Fort, Richie3Jack, Dana Dahlquist and now John Erickson.

I totally misunderstood what LagPressure was about, and do not mind eating some crow about it. I LOVE what I am now finally taking the time to learn from John right here.

Thank You,
Kevin

He who dies with the most friends, wins.

Captain_Chaos
Jul 07 2009 05:40
Page 141

Waffle, I may ask Gerry Hogan to drop in, but he’s soured on dealing with a$$es because he received a pretty bad time in rec.sport.golf some years back.

I’ve already seen similar attacks here, but all-in-all this website contains very well mannered (and knowledgable) individuals.

Cheers.

Shomethamoney
Jul 07 2009 08:56
Page 141

No problem KevCarter
Lots of good stuff to be had here… I think trial and error is a good thing, just so long as the errors don’t outlast the trial !!
I have been true to my word and haven’t ventured back to that part of the forum, and it’s been quiet without me!!
I am sure there is merit in everything if done correctly. However if not done correctly …well anything can happen. That is a method and methods are much harder to master than basic fundamentals. My big problem with that was that one fix becomes a fault somewhere else
Impact is the most important thing in the swing and we all have to find the best way to get there. For a few it may be that way, for most it won’t.
But glad that you have been exposed to a lot of the good stuff on this site and can work things out in your own mind what actually works best for you…not for anyone else.

“Now I know why Tigers eat their young”

stinkler
Jul 07 2009 09:03
Page 141

Impact is the most important thing in the swing

I think I need this tattooed somewhere!

iseekgolfguru
Jul 07 2009 11:12
Page 141

“CC” wondering if you have a more ‘vertical than angled’ hinge going on? ie presenting a bit more loft into impact through a tad of reverse roll? Or the ball is again a tad further forward in the stance than necessary.

AH are “closing and layback” procedures.

lagpressure
Jul 07 2009 18:42
Page 141

Captain_Chaos,

It would be only speculation to know what is going on in your swing..
but feel free to shoot me a short vid

I’ll take a look..

lagpressure@yahoo.com

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Jul 07 2009 18:46
Page 141

Impact is the most important thing in the swing

I think I need this tattooed somewhere!

better yet, tattoo it onto the back of the golf ball!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

waffle_iron
Jul 07 2009 18:48
Page 141

Waffle, I may ask Gerry Hogan to drop in, but he's soured on dealing with a$$es because he received a pretty bad time in rec.sport.golf some years back.

I've already seen similar attacks here, but all-in-all this website contains very well mannered (and knowledgable) individuals.

Cheers.

Thanks Captain

Lag I would disguise that email, apparently spammers get stuff off this site

the greatest game ever played

stinkler
Jul 07 2009 18:56
Page 141

Impact is the most important thing in the swing

I think I need this tattooed somewhere!

better yet, tattoo it onto the back of the golf ball!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Excellent advice, will project it there with my imagination every time I step up! Very inspiring shots those 2 too.

Daves
Jul 07 2009 18:59
Page 141

The one on the right is Lag I believe stinkler.

BBtB

Ho’ing Vision UVs since 2008:)

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

http://www.redlandbaygolf.c...

stinkler
Jul 07 2009 19:33
Page 141

Yep, got that, I may reveal my ignorance now, but who is the other? A young Hogan by chance??

waffle_iron
Jul 07 2009 19:35
Page 141

Yep Hogan, the other looks like Seve to me

the greatest game ever played

stinkler
Jul 07 2009 19:37
Page 141

You mean Lag? It does, but the pants give it away : ) I’ve watched his youtube too many times….

waffle_iron
Jul 07 2009 19:42
Page 141

Ah ok sorry, hope he takes that as a compliment then :)

the greatest game ever played

stinkler
Jul 07 2009 19:45
Page 141

I don’t see how he couldn’t!

Shomethamoney
Jul 07 2009 22:35
Page 141

If Lag had a white cap on and a dead tree in the background it would be Hogan X 2

“Now I know why Tigers eat their young”

Beezneeds
Jul 08 2009 00:17
Page 141

There are some differences….might be interesting to get some talk going on it?

To me, Hogan’s hips are more open compared to Lag’s but his shoulders seem more closed somehow?

Both are high grade Black Belts!!!!

Captain_Chaos
Jul 08 2009 02:08
Page 141

Captain_Chaos,

It would be only speculation to know what is going on in your swing..
but feel free to shoot me a short vid

I'll take a look..

lagpressure@yahoo.com">lagpressure@yahoo.com

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Will do. And thank you…your advice (along with others) has helped me put together some things that Gerry Hogan was relaying to me. His instructions just didn’t put the light bulb on. A big part of it is my fault. I’m an engineer and really do need a procedure to hang on to. Though, after all these years of tinkering, I must say that it is easy for me to change my swing, grip, alignment, etc. and still play decent golf.

Captain_Chaos
Jul 08 2009 02:33
Page 141

’ÄúCC” wondering if you have a more ‘vertical than angled' hinge going on? ie presenting a bit more loft into impact through a tad of reverse roll? Or the ball is again a tad further forward in the stance than necessary.

AH are ’Äúclosing and layback” procedures.

Thanks for the reply Guru. I’ll post a vid of my swing. If anything I believe I get the ball too far back (especially with short irons). I’ll read up on the vertical and angled hinge thing. However, the way I understand it (and I’m not a TGM guy, but I’m getting the vernacular down ;)

vertical hinge: cocking up of the wrists
horizontal hinge: bending back of the right wrist

I’m using the hitting procedure so I know I need the horizontal hinge.

Thanks again for the help. I just have to charge the camera up.
Cheers.

lagpressure
Jul 08 2009 08:04
Page 141

Let’s have Guru step in here and explain the hinge actions..

It’s important that the terminology be correct here..
maybe there is a link to this in the golf school section here?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

KevCarter
Jul 08 2009 09:41
Page 142

Let's have Guru step in here and explain the hinge actions..

It's important that the terminology be correct here..
maybe there is a link to this in the golf school section here?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Here is a wonderful article by Paul Smith.

http://www.iseekgolf.com/go...

Kevin

He who dies with the most friends, wins.

iseekgolfguru
Jul 08 2009 10:21
Page 142

The Dart looks dapper in those shots:) Hopefully he will be back on the forum soon when his ISP gets his broadband hooked up again.

Captain_Chaos
Jul 09 2009 09:04
Page 142

Let's have Guru step in here and explain the hinge actions..

It's important that the terminology be correct here..
maybe there is a link to this in the golf school section here?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Here is a wonderful article by Paul Smith.

http://www.iseekgolf.com/go…

Kevin

He who dies with the most friends, wins.

Thank you, Kevin. (and Dart for an excellent article). I’ll have my video shortly.

Cheers.

Whitednj
Jul 09 2009 17:47
Page 142

Lag, a couple of questions ….

Do you pick a spot in front of the ball at adress to help alignment?
And do you vary your swing (hit) at all when using the driver (or 3 wood off the tee)?

lagpressure
Jul 10 2009 15:30
Page 142

I used to pick a spot as Nicklaus promoted for years.. but over time,
I learned the skill to work the ball either way with pretty much equal ability, so now when I set up, I don’t get overly concerned about the precision of my alignment..

My swing plane is held in place by forces, not aiming, so I don’t really have much problem delivering a straight plane line or clubhead path through the ball.

So really what I do is try to feel the shot, and if I feel I am aimed right, I probably am.. but if I am say… aimed 10 yards right, then I will just work the ball back to the target with a draw.. or a fade if I feel I am too far left..

Typically, I rarely aim at the target, I always have some kind of curving shot shape in my mind (does this sound too old school? lol) so it’s more a feel thing than hitting a panic button if I feel I’m too right or left.

I try not to vary my swing much.. if at all.. my stance is usually more open with my wedges, but even a 9 iron I am not all that open.

A lot of that has to do with my equipment, because I am a firm believer that there should be feeling of sameness right through the set, with a graduation of dead weights, and shaft lengths, with even swing weights from wedge to driver..

This idea of a 14 ounce “long iron”, then you pull out a driver that is 5 inches longer, and weighs almost 30% less (say 10 ounces).... to me is insanity.. unless you want to be spend a lot of time greeting fellow golfers in other fairways..

...then you spend some time on the range with the driver, and find a swing, then you can’t hit your irons anymore..

I hear this all the time from my students.. and I see it in the tour stats with some of biggest stars in the game.. if they struggle with the concept, what chance does the club amateur have?

Therefore.. I take no part in it…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Whitednj
Jul 10 2009 17:28
Page 142

Lag, I’ve had to come back to a “pick a spot aim” in recent weeks as I was hitting the ball a little left of target for no apparent reason. I guess having a line from the clubface through “the spot” to the target gets me better aligned, particularly the shoulders – when I open the shoulders I still hit a draw but it goes left – others I know get a bit of a cut on the ball with their shoulders open. Dunno why I’m different.

You picked why I seem to have a different swing (certainly a different feeling) with the driver. It is much longer and lighter and I find I have to be so much “quieter” through the swing to keep everything in place. My home course has no adjacent fairways, just scrub on one side and OOB on the other! But I’m getting more consistent with the driver and accepting the differences it creates in my brain – it really is such an advantage to my scores to be 20-30m closer to the green than I used to be with my old driver. I’ve always got the 3w if I’m feeling out of sorts with the driver.

lagpressure
Jul 11 2009 15:07
Page 142

Start by taking some divots.. if you can get them relatively square, and consistent looking.. but a ball down and strike it.. just concentrate on striking the ball solid and flush.. then look to see where the ball went..
if it was a straight shot, felt good.. then guess what ? that’s where you were aiming..

The problem I have with everyone’s obsession with address alignments is that NOTHING looks the same at impact..

At address… feet are flat but at impact, right heel off the ground?

At address… knees are square but at impact, knees are not where they were..

At address… hips are square are flat but at impact, hips are open..

At address… shoulders are square but at impact, shoulders are often open…

At address… head is in one place.. at impact head is usually lower.. because all of the above!

Hands, arms, club.. all different..

At address no pressure.. at impact tons of pressure! “hopefully”..

Everything changes..

So now if you think backwards.. from P3 4:30… how are you going to get the club there from the top? Are you going to come in flat from there? are you going to drop it in from high hands?

Once that is established.. (where you are at the top) and there ARE OPTIONS! then.. think about how you want to get it there? What feels right to you? Loop it up then in? or in then out..

The only IMPERATIVE is that you TURN YOUR SHOULDERS!!!!!
not just flapping the arms back..

Once you define your backswing, your top position, and how that will get you moving the club into the P3 4:30 slot.. then think about your address..

How will your address actually “ADDRESS” these issues? If I am going to pull the clubhead in, low and around me.. like George Knudson… then I would have a setup I would suggest for that..

If you are going to pick it up like Jim Furyk, then there is a way to set up for that..

Just make sure you don’t lose sight of the bigger picture..
where does the ball go when you strike it flush and solid..

Lee Trevino did exactly this… he figured out where the ball went when he flushed it.. and it was going 40 yards right of where OTHERS felt he should be aiming..

FIND FLUSH FIRST!! then look to see where FLUSH GOES!!

then aim accordingly..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Whitednj
Jul 11 2009 17:10
Page 142

I am sure I’ve read somewhere in these forums – and it may have been a comment from you, guru or showme, that you get maximum distance when you hit the ball a little left – like the sensation of completely unwinding the shoulders and swinging across your body. This is true for me – if the ball goes left from a full swing, not a hook but maybe caused by the ball being too far forward at address, it goes about a club further than normal. Usually small or no divot.

Again you are right about the divots. I often don’t take a divot of any consequence but this hasn’t worried me too much as I still get the flight I want in most cases. But I don’t think I’m going to easily get to my current goal of a single figure handicap as the consistency is still a little off (like today’s 10 over front 9 and 3 over back 9).

My next practice round will be all about “striking the ball solid and flush”.

waffle_iron
Jul 11 2009 17:17
Page 142

Compression isn’t a bad swing thought White

the greatest game ever played

macs
Jul 13 2009 03:45
Page 142

Lag
You said shoulder turn is imperative. But is it important how much. For old timers like me getting to that left shoulder under chin is a stumbling block and leads to loosing spine tilt.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

Weetbix
Jul 13 2009 08:06
Page 142

A full shoulder turn is not necessary, but perhaps even more importantly a long arm swing is not necessary. At the moment with the biomechanical training my shoulders are well short of 90 degrees. But even more than the shoulders my arms are finishing the backswing lower than 9 o’clock, except with the long clubs where it is around 9 o’clock. This is not a thought though, it is just how far my arms go back to. By the time my arms get there I am well into the downswing … well my lower body is.

As Bio explains it, when you want to jump as high as possible you drop a little and then explode. It is detrimental to go down as far as you can and then try and accelarate smoothly into the jump. Yet we try and teach that in teh golf swing with a big “Wait” through transition because it takes so much timing. The proper action is called a Short Stretch Cycle and you can and should make use of them in your swing. What this means is that big shoulder truns with the arms stretched right up is unnecessary. There was a video around somewhere on a thread called something like Bombing it with a three quarter swing.

I think of it like a boxer throwing a punch. Long swinging actions look powerful but don’t actually generate much hand speed. A short sharp hip and then shoulder action, where the hips rotate quickly and in a short arc, then stop, which accelarates the shoulders which then stop. This throws the arm out or around very quickly and accurately (as opposed to a loopy shot which might get up to a good speed but is tough to aim as well). Whyich sounds like a recipe for good golf – fast and accurate.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

lagpressure
Jul 13 2009 13:34
Page 142

I do agree with all that… and Bio’s thoughts on that stuff is spot on..

However, one thing to consider, is that if you take a big shoulder turn, with minimal arm travel, you have an opportunity to create much more “pivot- arm lag”..

What this does, is allows a little extra time for things to line up… so a good player who has some educated hands can feel any last split second adjustments that might need to be made as everything heads down into the slot… or what I call P3 4:30.

It gives that great sensation that any fine player would relate too.. that the pivot core initiates and turns and the arms, hands, club feel left behind.. and that little extra time delay can make the difference between a good ball striking day and a great one..

The days I have the ball all over the pin, that pivot lag is a real reality…

My point is that not everything we do has to alway be geared toward
maximum velocity… there is a lot of feel in this game, or a least there should be..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Jul 15 2009 12:40
Page 142

Apparently Tiger allow someone to clip a camera on his visor, and a film of that floating around the web.. I captured a couple of stills then rotated the frame back to where his plane line is square to our view, showing his eyes or head rotated back onto the 4:30 delivery line.

The second photo seems to show him holding shaft flex into impact.

Good stuff…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Captain_Chaos
Jul 16 2009 23:17
Page 142

A full shoulder turn is not necessary, but perhaps even more importantly a long arm swing is not necessary. At the moment with the biomechanical training my shoulders are well short of 90 degrees. But even more than the shoulders my arms are finishing the backswing lower than 9 o'clock, except with the long clubs where it is around 9 o'clock. This is not a thought though, it is just how far my arms go back to. By the time my arms get there I am well into the downswing … well my lower body is.

Weetbix, I’m guessing since your arms automatically finish that short that you are put in a position where they cannot move back any farther?

lagpressure
Jul 19 2009 15:04
Page 142

It was nice to be reminded today that TW used to mean Tom Watson..

Interesting to see the artistry of golf back in vouge… at least for a week..

If you miss fairways over there you are either losing your ball, or hacking out of some pretty wicked stuff. It’s a nice reminder that a great golf swing can put you on top of the world at nearly 60 if the putter cooperates.

Regardless what happens at Turnberry Tomorrow.. that’s some inspirational stuff for many.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Tred
Jul 19 2009 19:40
Page 142

Lag,

I believe i am primarily a hitter, but have dabbled with swinging with moderate levels of success. I would like to find a coach in sth east Victoria to either improve my hitting or turn me into a swinger. Do you have any recommendations? Maybe the Guru could help.

Tred.

Whitednj
Jul 19 2009 19:43
Page 142

2008 … GN
2009 … TW
2010 … PT ??? (well, the 3rd round leaders are getting older)

All power to em.

lagpressure
Jul 20 2009 05:34
Page 142

I hope everyone enjoyed that wonderful Open..
Exciting, dramatic, historic.. everything you could want as a spectator.

Although many are disappointed by the outcome hoping Watson could have pulled off one of the greatest feats in sports history.. I say this..

We all got to see this kind of story because this is much closer to what golf should be.

This is a golf course that allows an experienced player like Watson to compete head to head with the younger stars regardless of age.

Fine shot making, strategy, meticulously managing of the golf ball through the hazards and pitfalls of Turnberry is what made the week exciting.

Watson himself said post interview that even The Masters doesn’t excite him anymore due to the way the course is set up… so long.

It’s something to think about.

As the game turns it’s back on the historic courses that made golf a wonderful player’s and spectators experience … I think it’s much sadder to see golf change to the bomb and gouge game than to see Tom come up ever so short in his historic attempt.

If The Open had followed suit of the American trend, we wouldn’t have seen what we did this week, and for that I am thankful… because golf this way is much more interesting.

Tom didn’t lose The Open on 18 although he may have felt he did. He lost it on the third playoff hole with an errant tee shot.. because errant tee shots should be penalized.. in the same way it sent the other TW packing his bags on Friday.

Cink hit all the fairways in the playoff, and 3 of 4 greens including two birdies. That’s why he won, and rightfully so.

I think there is a much bigger lesson here for all to contemplate.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Weetbix
Jul 20 2009 07:32
Page 142

A full shoulder turn is not necessary, but perhaps even more importantly a long arm swing is not necessary. At the moment with the biomechanical training my shoulders are well short of 90 degrees. But even more than the shoulders my arms are finishing the backswing lower than 9 o'clock, except with the long clubs where it is around 9 o'clock. This is not a thought though, it is just how far my arms go back to. By the time my arms get there I am well into the downswing … well my lower body is.

Weetbix, I'm guessing since your arms automatically finish that short that you are put in a position where they cannot move back any farther?

Not at all. There is no bodily reason that they couldn’t go back further. Actually the reason that they stop there is simply because they are being pulled back in the other direction. My centre of gravity has moved back in the opposite direction well before the arms reach 9 o’clock, so my hips turn back pulling my shoulders around pulling my arms back. This starts very soon after I get the club going back on the backswing so there is no time for it to get up high. It’s more like a tennis players backswing. They could take it back further but they don’t need to. Even on the serve.

This goes against much of what I had understood about the golf swing. Talking to Bio he de-emphasises the backswing a lot. Basically it’s just a platform from which to launch. And because of the way the short stretch cycles operate long movements are actually counterproductive. The chemical energy in yoru muscles gets turned into heat instead of speed. Bit techy but in terms of the proof in the pudding I have not lost any distance playing this way after only a few weeks of doing the exercises. And I have a long long way to go before I am doing this remotely right.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

Captain_Chaos
Jul 22 2009 06:49
Page 142

Thanks for the reply Weetbix.

And Lag, I agree with you 100% about the Open. Broke my heart that Tom didn’t win it though.

macs
Jul 24 2009 15:53
Page 142

Hogan’s right hand hit very obvious in these swings. Long video: go to 5.00 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=related

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

lagpressure
Jul 24 2009 19:17
Page 142

No mystery in those vids..

he gives the whole thing away really..
If you know what to look for.. the entire firing order is clearly demonstrated, and the deep 4:30 line.. even the firing of the right hand..

It’s an amazing vid.. probably my favorite…he tells you what he’s feeling both when and where..

pay attention, there is a lot going in in a short space of time..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Jul 24 2009 19:18
Page 142

No mystery in those vids..

he gives the whole thing away really..
If you know what to look for.. the entire firing order is clearly demonstrated, and the deep 4:30 line.. even the firing of the right hand..

It’s an amazing vid.. probably my favorite…he tells you what he’s feeling both when and where..

pay attention, there is a lot going on in a short space of time..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

iseekgolfguru
Jul 24 2009 19:38
Page 142

Notice the FLW and BRW at all times through impact. Magic HH roll for max clubhead speed. Flying Wedges in tact.

Beautiful stuff.

Prot
Jul 24 2009 22:38
Page 142

That Open was immensely entertaining.

The one thing I took away from it is exactly what you’re saying Lag… Tom Watson actually said not only does it remove him as a competing factor from Augusta, but even some ‘kids’.

I have to think when I hear skilled ‘shot makers’ like him and recently Ben Crenshaw, say this stuff, Bobby Jones rolls over in his grave to what those ‘brain thrusts’ have done to his legacy.

It took me a while to understand what this meant to golf, and what it really means to ‘shoot’ your way to a win, rather than bomb your way to wedge, but I truly appreciate it now.

Tom definitely made a very clear and potent message that week, not only verbally but with actions we won’t see again anytime soon.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

macs
Jul 28 2009 10:31
Page 143

Transformation?:

I write this with a lot of humility that I did achieve my goal for this year to break 80 (a 78 on 6138 yards par 71 course with a slope of 118). thanks Guru, showme and most of all Lag.
If we look at the two scores 5 days apart there is a huge difference (in between I played two rounds in the mid 80s – my usual). I needed 5 more putts today. Frankly my round today could very well have been a 74. The difference is clearly ball stirking. 10/14 Fairways; 9/18 greens.
I have been at Lag’s drills since February and currently on module 3. Although I dont communicate with him as much as he would like to but my forearm muscles are bigger and harder.
Reading through Prot’s thread I fully understood and shared his frustration about things not working as our short golf season in Canada is fast approaching the end. I knew my biggest problem was how to consistently find the 0430 slot because once there the modules give you the wherewithals to go at it. I even marked it on my practice mat.

<

In my infinite and sometimes wild search I think I have found the answer. I think Guru can explain it better but it is to load the No. 3 PP against the primary lever and not the secondary lever. In simple terms not to let the right wrist cock and PP 3 stays more on top of the shaft at the top of the backswing.
From there it sends the power package more predictably to the 0430 position and then module 1,2,3. Lag may not agree with this but for someone taking up golf at 43 you need firm reference points.
Lets Hope it stays this way.
PS: Sheepishly I went back to my game improvement Nickent 3DX irons a week ago including today’s round. Driver LaJolla 400 cc with Graphite Design Stiff shaft at 43.5”; 3 wood 15 degrees LaJolla stiff and Nickent 3DX Hybrid 17 degrees (mainly used as a five wood).

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

iseekgolfguru
Jul 28 2009 10:45
Page 143

Great stuff Mac :) Keep it up.

And you are right in that the older we are taking up anything new that you need a different learning approach to it than a youngster.

lagpressure
Jul 28 2009 17:49
Page 143

Macs,

Lots of ways to get to the 4:30 line..
History has shown us over and over that the backswing is very overrated.

What is not over rated is that you make a full range of motion shoulder turn..

The amount of arm travel is overrated.

The proper function of the hands either hitting or swinging is not overrated.

Congrats on breaking 80.. That’s one of the great milestones of the game.

Next up… 75!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Prot
Jul 28 2009 22:40
Page 143

macs,

Way to go. You’re right our season is so bloody short. It really stinks to be stuck in a rut for so long…..

I find it interesting that you say you don’t think cocking the right wrist is a good idea.

I do not agree with ignoring the backswing in my personal exploration of Lag’s stuff. I say this because there comes a point where something you can do in the backswing CAN and DOES effect the down swing.

I believe I’m a prime example of that. But your lack of bending the right wrist has me piqued. I am really starting to believe when I cock my wrists things are going wrong, and ‘wronger’ as the swing progresses.

That’s a great idea with your practice mat. I like that idea and may have to steal it. We really only have 10+ weeks of golf left here though, and that’s it.

I’m glad you made it to your goal. That’s really awesome. I fell short, got within 4 strokes of it but that was… 6 weeks ago. For now I’m still grinding though and it is nice to hear a ‘success’ story like yours. Good job, and thanks for letting us in on your process with Lag.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

Beezneeds
Jul 29 2009 00:58
Page 143

I found my striking got better as soon as I stopped trying to make big angles with my wrists – have used the word ‘fake’ angles to describe these before. It’s one of the illusions of the swing…...

Tigersworld
Jul 29 2009 03:40
Page 143

I have a two questions Lag you earlier in this thread stated you knew why Mr Hogan dragged his right foot could you fill me in. Second question what do you think about the role of the underside of the shaft during the downswing. The 6 o’clock position all the way to head

JuNiOR

Royshh
Jul 29 2009 04:49
Page 143

Does the 4:30 line mean that at parallel 3, the butt of the club is pointing 45 degrees right of the plane line?

Could someone post a picture so I don’t misunderstand?

CheeseDonkey
Jul 29 2009 05:43
Page 143

Junionr, is the underside of the shaft a reference to Martinez’s “aiming the blade” concept? He has some interesting views on the swing he calls bow to crossbow.

lagpressure
Jul 29 2009 18:18
Page 143

I like my students to come up with their own backswing paths… I certainly have my opinions of how it should be done, and would love to speak with great conviction about it.. however.. history shows us many paths to the 4:30 line. If I see something that has no chance of working I will intervene.. but the main thing is that unless you know where you need to get the club on the downswing delivery (P3 4:30)
and you know how to fire from there.. and you know how to take those angles and spend them properly so that as Beez says, they aren’t fake or contrived, and you know where to direct all these energies to.. and you have the proper ground forces to support and deal with the new motor you have installed.. the backswing doesn’t mean much.
It’s like loading a triggerless gun.. or putting gas in a car with no motor.

My transition module is very detailed and extremely important.. but we don’t need to go there until we have our downswing ducks lined up in advance or it would be a complete waste of everyone’s time and energy.

Prot,

Your backswing looks great and is not creating your problems I can assure you.. If you find a better way to set up the path to the right P3 launching pad by all means do so.. the main thing is that you know where you need to be just before the moment of truth!

Beez,

Angles create potential energy.. if you don’t know what to do with them.. where and when they should exist, how to get rid of them properly, and where their final destination intentions are.. you have exactly what you are describing.. I couldn’t agree more..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Jul 29 2009 18:21
Page 143

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Weetbix
Jul 29 2009 21:10
Page 143

That shaft looks pretty short for being parallel to the ground

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

iseekgolfguru
Jul 29 2009 22:02
Page 143

Lag: The backswing path is optional though some may read into your thoughts that the backswing pivot motion, now thinking in terms of hips and shoulder motions, are also not important.

I just had someone the other day asking me about when the hips motion starts up vs the arm etc in relation to this thread.

Could you clarify or distinguish a little for all.

Flatleftwrist
Jul 30 2009 00:05
Page 143

I think that being Aligned at the Top Of the Swing to carry out the needs of the Downstroke, etc. is more important than the Path(s) chosen to Acquire those Alignments.

For someone learning what those Alignments should feel like, it may be necessary to introduce at least some Backstroke Mechanics.

However, without a solid Downstroke routine, the Alignments at the Top of the Swing may need to change from time to time.

I like Lagpressure’s approach to teaching. Start at Impact, then back up step by step to Address. That’s the gist of it anyway. Then, you know what Alignments are needed at the Top of the Swing. Getting there won’t be such an issue.

But, a good backstroke procedure is no less important than a good pre-shot routine.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Beezneeds
Jul 30 2009 01:05
Page 143

Lag – I’m trying to keep it as simple as possible; no big angles, and no secrets!

Any thoughts on the left side staying somewhat ‘under’ or level with the right side in the backswing? Something I’m thinking hard on at the moment.

The brain guys have written a lot about getting right side power into the swing – is this an important concept for that?

iseekgolfguru
Jul 30 2009 10:23
Page 143

Flat Left Wrist: Lag teaches the on Plane Angle of Approach from impact back. It is not a heck of a lot different to what most TGMers know and love, its just shown faster to most to get the concept of what’s got to happen in the business end of the swing.

What I do like about this approach is that it caters for all sorts of looks in how to assemble the load and then drive it all down plane once it is aligned. Lags ‘float down’ allows the butt of the club to be pointed at the base of the plane and then driven as hard as you need, followed by a ripping Finish Swivel – which allows for more speed to have been carried through Impact.

Now Dart and I teach an on plane backswing to get players on plane for as long s possible before we allow them to tinker with different backstroke patterns that allow players to understand those transition alignments are very important. Lags way shows the same importance just learned in reverse.

Weetbix
Jul 30 2009 19:57
Page 143

But, a good backstroke procedure is no less important than a good pre-shot routine.

Why?

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

iseekgolfguru
Jul 30 2009 20:10
Page 143

If you have a crap backswing pivot with a Sway and Bob it going to be harder to have a decent downswing pivot motion.

Prot
Jul 30 2009 22:48
Page 143

“floating”
Lags ‘float down' allows the butt of the club to be pointed at the base of the plane and then driven as hard as you need, followed by

What other way is there? To me, I see that pointing butt club as an aiming device. If halfway down you are aimed that way, it seems logical that by firing the club you will hit the proper quadrant of the ball (no OTT).

I’m just curious but I wonder what other method would a hitter take the club down into ball Guru?

Pre-Lag, I used to simply aim at the inside of the Ball. Post-Lag I am one of those guys using the butt to aim. Sometimes if things get off a bit, I back up and find I may not be waiting long enough for that butt to point at the inside of the ball. It’s easy to ‘skip it’ if you’re not careful, and that almost always results in a less compressed shot for myself anyway.

Conversely, I find if I aim the butt too long, or too late in the swing, I’ll come in steep (have to make up too much distance in too short a time).

Does that make sense? I’m just not aware of another way that actually works this well?

I had said to Lag a while ago that this whole ‘aiming the butt’ as you put it Guru, is very reminiscent of the “Mickey Wright” drill. I knew of the drill well before I met Lag, but I wasn’t really ‘conscious’ of what it did until those early Lag modules.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

Tigersworld
Jul 31 2009 05:02
Page 143

I have a two questions Lag you earlier in this thread stated you knew why Mr Hogan dragged his right foot could you fill me in. Second question what do you think about the role of the underside of the shaft during the downswing. The 6 o'clock position all the way to head

JuNiOR

Junior, is the underside of the shaft a reference to Martinez's ’Äúaiming the blade” concept? He has some interesting views on the swing he calls bow to crossbow.

Yes CheeseDonkey but waiting for Lag’s feelings and input on the underside of the shaft ;-) / Mr Hogans right foot drag question.

JuNiOR

CheeseDonkey
Jul 31 2009 05:28
Page 143

I think I’m picking up what you’re putting down. Question and comment withdrawn (for now).

Weetbix
Jul 31 2009 19:55
Page 143

’Äúfloating”
Lags ‘float down' allows the butt of the club to be pointed at the base of the plane and then driven as hard as you need, followed by

What other way is there? To me, I see that pointing butt club as an aiming device. If halfway down you are aimed that way, it seems logical that by firing the club you will hit the proper quadrant of the ball (no OTT).

I'm just curious but I wonder what other method would a hitter take the club down into ball Guru?

Pre-Lag, I used to simply aim at the inside of the Ball. Post-Lag I am one of those guys using the butt to aim. Sometimes if things get off a bit, I back up and find I may not be waiting long enough for that butt to point at the inside of the ball. It's easy to ‘skip it' if you're not careful, and that almost always results in a less compressed shot for myself anyway.

Conversely, I find if I aim the butt too long, or too late in the swing, I'll come in steep (have to make up too much distance in too short a time).

Does that make sense? I'm just not aware of another way that actually works this well?

I had said to Lag a while ago that this whole ‘aiming the butt' as you put it Guru, is very reminiscent of the ’ÄúMickey Wright” drill. I knew of the drill well before I met Lag, but I wasn't really ‘conscious' of what it did until those early Lag modules.

’ÄúTry smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

Wow, timing that must be a bitch Prot. How do you consistently balance waiting the appropriate amount of time for the butt to line up and not aiming the butt for too long?

Doing my PST a week ago I noticed that there was a definite feeling of pulling the butt towards the ball, but I had not consciously tried to do it. Interestingly (as least for me) while there was definitely a time when the butt was being pulled down it didn’t feel the same as if I actively tried to pull it down. I suppose the difference between the pulling being an action or a reaction.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

iseekgolfguru
Jul 31 2009 20:06
Page 143

You pull the butt of the club at the base of the plane line, not the ball. It’s where on the plane your butt is aimed at during the initial downward pull that is all about your wrist cock and how much elbow bend you may have loaded to release.

If you keep pulling, you swing. If you then shove,having floated, you are hitting.

Do it on a good pivot and it works just nicely thanks very much as the ball sails out there.

stinkler
Aug 01 2009 08:10
Page 143

I’m starting to feel that these thing are results that can be noticed when the link is all working. If they are not in place they indicate that the system as a whole is not in balance and working on one thing like “the butt of the club” will not fix the problem. I’m with Weeties on this, since starting working on my movement patterns and approaching PST’s, I’m finding that with no thought of many mechanical issues such a lag, FLW, down and out, those things are falling into place much better than when I was ‘trying’ to achieve them. Cure the disease and the symptoms disappear?

lagpressure
Aug 01 2009 15:37
Page 143
Cure the disease and the symptoms disappear?

Bingo!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 01 2009 16:40
Page 143

I have never meant to say that the backswing is not important.. only the least of most golfers worries..

When I look up and down any driving range I have ever observed.. even on tour.. all I see is a lot of worry about backswing path… meaning the path of club, or the hands… or how upright the swing is..
or if the wrists are setting early or late… or where the club is at the top..
a caddy making comments about where the club is at the top.. this sort of thing..

Personally I both use and promote as big and dynamic a torso rotation as is possible on the backswing (and finish).. I also promote minimal hand travel..

History shows us that the greatest ball strikers of all time follow this protocol more often than not.

The reason I don’t work on a student’s backswing until later in our module work is that for one… by increasing the horsepower of their strike… through supercharging their pivot thrust, and handspeed, this changes not only the look of their backswing, but also the shape, length and path without me saying a word. I like to see what has evolved naturally, because this will be more consistent with their basic swing DNA. It might not need to be changed at all. If it does then it will be changed. If change is needed, then whatever path we are going to take or work on will be flowing into something they already know how to do.. They will know where the pot of gold is..

You can put me at the top of the backswing.. align me perfect so I look like your favorite tour pro.. and I can still come right OTT.. hit it fat, throw the hands to early over accelerate, violate every law of body and pivot connection..

There is zero guarantee that a proper set up, proper backswing, or top of backswing position will produce a proper downswing.

As much as I respect and appreciate Homer’s work regarding TGM..
I completely disagree with the idea that the hands should ever control the pivot.. I do not agree that TGM 5-0 that “Force over alignments reduces precision”

A golf ball does not leave the tee by geometry alone. Proper geometry does not in anyway insure proper application of forces..

However.. to the contrary..

Proper application of forces will create a vapor trail of geometry.
That vapor trail of geometry CAN be very precise if the forces that create it are mentored properly.

That geometry must be created by forces.. and the pivot… is by Homer’s own admission, the master accumulator.. The force of the golf swing must be supplied primarily by the pivot. Secondly by the hands and forearms.. and lastly by any arm activity.

Whether the hands are passive hinges (swingers) or vicious little motors (hitters) both protocols must ride upon the wings of pivot power. There is no such thing as a fine ball striker that does not drive both TGM’s primary and secondary level assembles through the golf swing.

I agree with Homer that you can hit a golf ball without any pivot action.. BUT.. just NOT VERY WELL!

I am not sure why Homer omitted a pivot driven lever assembly.

For those who don’t understand a lever assembly, you have three component parts..

You have 1. pressure
2. a fulcrum
and 3. weight

like a teeter totter.

Homer’s primary lever is described as the clubhead being the weight, and the left shoulder being the fulcrum with power being supplied by the right arm in between those two points.. at the hands..

Homer’s secondary lever is the club again being the weight, the left hand being the fulcrum and the pressure being supplied by the hands. (accumulators 2 and 3)

The concept of a master lever assembly where the pivot supplies the power, the left shoulder becomes the fulcrum and the weight of the arms, hands, and club being exactly that, “the weight” is strangely and tragically omitted in my opinion.

I strongly suspect Homer never really understood the importance of post impact pivot thrust to deal with sustaining lag pressure, holding shaft flex therefore maximizing ball compression. It’s all there in chapter two in the diagrams… I know he understood it exists.. but his lack of emphasis upon the HUGE benefits of pursuing such ideals is not forgivable in my eyes… and this is why I think Mac went AOL and why we never have seen a TGM guy dominate the tour ball striking stats as one would certainly expect.

Of course, we are here to change all that!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

stinkler
Aug 01 2009 18:17
Page 144

Now that’s a post! Interesting indeed.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 01 2009 19:28
Page 144

Homer has the pivot as a power source. It’s pivotal in all the motions. #4 power accumulator is the Master but its also the weakest in a clubhead speed sense. Just by holding PP#4 in its place delivers the Flying Wedges much more effectively. Actively blasting it off your chest releases its potential.

Homers idea is that educated hands are better to deliver the precise geometry with its power package, than a pivot pulling relatively inactive hands in charge of a power package. ie its easier to trace a plane deliberately than by chance.

He also said you can do it either way but one was preferred to the other.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 02 2009 03:30
Page 144

I read these posts and it doesn't seem we're talking about the same TGM. The entire book is about Increasing Power while Decreasing Power Loss. Especially the Power Loss that occurs during Impact. Homer Kelley is a Power fanatic. He says that you can only swing so fast with all of your effort, but there are still ways to squeeze out much more.

9-2 “The choice must be made here between ’ÄúMop Swinging” (Drive Loading), ’ÄúTowel Snapping” (Downstroke Loading) and ’ÄúWhipcracking” (Drag Loading). See 7-19. Zone #2 Components are Power Components. Good Golf is Power Golf – don't be mislead by ’ÄúAccuracy” problems. As you master Clubhead Control (Power) you will gain basic Clubface Control (Accuracy) – Zone #3 can never be any better than its Zone #1 and #2 support. Remove all pressures against ’ÄúPower First.” Power techniques are Power Control. See 2-M-3.”

2-K “Compare the Primary Lever Assembly (6-A-2) with the common flail. While the ’Äúswingle” is seeking its ’Äúin-line” (full extension ) relation with the ’Äúhandle” (catching up) there is ’ÄúCentrifugal Acceleration.” When it becomes ’Äúin-line” (caught up) this settles into ’ÄúCentrifugal (Angular) Momentum” (Full Extension). If it passes its ’Äúin-line” relation, it again seeks its ’Äúin-line” relation (backs up) and ’ÄúCentrifugal Deceleration” sets in with a huge power loss. These three phases demonstrate what is termed herein ’ÄúThe Law of the Flail” – the Swingers primary concern.”

Directing Power:

1-L “Power and control are scientific and geometric and are proportionally and progressively dependable. Sheer determination or sheer muscular effort or helpless – except when directed at mastering the procedure which can bring acceptable results.

In every athletic activity, success seems to be unquestionably proportional to the player's sense of balance and force – whether innate or acquired. Off-balance force is notoriously erratic. The mechanical device has no balance problem but the human machine does, and mastery of the Pivot (Zone #1) is so essential for good Golf. See 10-19-0.”

Homer always says to Drive the #3 Pressure Point to at least ’ÄúBoth arms Straight” because:

1-L-12 “Ball Speed is dependent on both before Impact and after Impact Clubhead Speed.”

6-C-2-A “If the Pressure Point pressure that produced the initial Clubshaft flex is maintained it will maintain the flex also. So the pressure will be a steady smooth Thrust form the entire Power Package Assembly, and will produce a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly. If the Pivot moves the Right Shoulder at the same speed as the Power Package – or Primary Lever Assembly – the Accumulators will not be Released by this action until the Right Elbow can straighten. Even then the Clubhead Lag is still maintained – it has NO Release Point. “

Hands Controlled Pivot vs. Pivot Controlled Hands:

Precision will be reduced if the Lag Pressure relationship to the Plane Line is replaced for Lag Pressure relationship to the Body. The Precision Homer refers to are Impact Vectors. (5-0)

1-L-10 “The Lever Assembly must be driven through Impact by an On Plane force (moving toward the Plane Line).”

Pivot Controlled Hands reduces Clubhead Throwaway:

5-0 “The alternative to Hands Controlled Pivot is, of course, Pivot Controlled hands per 10-24-F. That does not alter the Basic Geometry or Physics requirements but assigns to Physics precedence over Geometry – Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision. But, also Clubhead Throwaway. The information for such a procedure is all included herein – merely Monitor the Pivot instead of the Hands.”

Alignments and Power Chapter 14

“Geometry and Physics must be clearly differentiated. ’ÄúAlignments” (relationships) are Geometry. ’ÄúWork” (energy) is Physics (Chapter 2). Together the constitute ’ÄúMechanics” – structurally ’Äúfixed” geometry and physics (1-L). ’ÄúFeel” is the body's equivalent to structuring and its foundation is the Educated Hands (5-0).”

In other words: When you buy the Book, it should come with a Jock Strap!

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Styles
Aug 02 2009 09:58
Page 144

FLW, thank you for that post.

I’d love to know your true identity because you clearly know the yellow book!

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

stinkler
Aug 02 2009 10:03
Page 144

So the way I read this it’s of utmost importance to get zone 1/2 going first and achieve power; club head control. Accuracy will come as you master that; club face control?

Firstly I think this is why I’ve gone to Bio for a screening. His work seems to be very much about this. The aim is to set up a kinetic link that sets in place the power of the golf swing, “power first!”. All my work on club head control was way too premature in a way, worry about accuracy after/as you master power. NB, I don’t read power as smashing the b-jesus out of it either, but another form of control that gives you that option : )

Secondly I see this happening in my game now. I’m not scoring better, ie accuracy, but my ball striking (power/distance) is 100% on a month or 2 ago. ( also my putting has gone to shit as I work on this solely). The scoring will follow suit shortly.

From what I hear of Dart this is very much his doctrine too? Power then accuracy?

Styles
Aug 02 2009 10:09
Page 144

power then accuracy is a modern way of thinking.

It is said that it is easier to get a long player to hit is straight than it is to get a straight hitter to shoot straight.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

stinkler
Aug 02 2009 10:11
Page 144

Mm, chew on that,, maybe I have hope!

lagpressure
Aug 02 2009 10:11
Page 144

1-L-12 ’ÄúBall Speed is dependent on both before Impact and after Impact Clubhead Speed.”

This is absolutely at the core of what I teach… maximizing compression for any shot…... not just long driving.. you can maximize compression on a chip shot.. The key to doing this is acceleration…properly applying it and understanding it.

6-C-2-A ’ÄúIf the Pressure Point pressure that produced the initial Clubshaft flex is maintained it will maintain the flex also.

This is absolutely correct…

So the pressure will be a steady smooth Thrust form the entire Power Package Assembly, and will produce a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly. If the Pivot moves the Right Shoulder at the same speed as the Power Package – or Primary Lever Assembly – the Accumulators will not be Released by this action until the Right Elbow can straighten. Even then the Clubhead Lag is still maintained – it has NO Release Point. ’Äú

Again this is very well stated..

But to omit or not properly acknowledge “a pivot driven lever assembly” is to not fully understand the importance of a great pivot in the golf swing..

The confusion will continue until a student of TGM really understands the difference between the hands being passive hinges.. (law of the flail) and the hands being aggressive motors…

One is automatic release, the other non automatic (deliberate)

Either way the pivot must deliver the power package to release point or what we call P3. From there the hands either fire actively and with aggression or they act as passive hinges. This is a HUGE difference, and I believe this to be more definitive of hitting or swinging than what the right arm does.

The right arm can take exactly the same role.. passive or motoring.

The right arm can thrust into a straightening …or it CAN BE PULLED straight through the outward forces of CF. If it is passive, this goes nicely with the passive hands, and the clubface will roll into a full roll release by the forces that be. The clubshaft will also move off plane into a parallel plane or “equal angular spiral’ if the golfer is using anything below a shoulder plane.. and this is my argument for Moe Norman.. Moe could swing without having to deal with the potential problems of moving the shaft into an equal angular spiral post impact..

CF wants to put these things in line.. shaft and left arm.. and Moe had them both inline from DTL and face on views… this is GOOD SCIENCE because this is what physics wants to do..

Either way… hitting or swinging…. the pivot needs to be driving the primary lever assembly.. (Homer’s version)

If the pivot is driving the golf swing, we can clearly push and pull at the same time for the simple fact that we have a shoulder on the left side of the torso, and we have a shoulder on the right side of the torso. The left is pulling, the right is pushing if the right arm remains more passive which is what I prefer for the very reason Homer states in:

(1-F)

“That variations in elbow bend during release will disturb clubface control by the right arm, making it an inferior procedure.” I agree with this statement 100%.

This is why I teach a pivot driven hitting procedure, not a passive pivot hitting procedure that is based more so upon right arm thrust into the primary lever assembly. Myself and my students drive the primary lever assembly with the pivot, not the right arm.. we do as little disturbing to clubface alignments as possible keeping the right arm out of impact arena for this very reason that Homer states in 1-F…however.. we DO NOT give up the #2 and particularly the #3 accumulator potential.. we max it out.. pedal to the metal!

This is all nothing new.. every great ball striker drives the golf swing with a great pivot.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!

Pick your poison.. motors or hinges… hit of swing.. but the pivot MUST be the driving force of a proper golf swing if you have any chance of flushing a ball consistently around a golf course.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Flatleftwrist
Aug 02 2009 11:02
Page 144

So the way I read this it's of utmost importance to get zone 1/2 going first and achieve power; club head control. Accuracy will come as you master that; club face control?

Firstly I think this is why I've gone to Bio for a screening. His work seems to be very much about this. The aim is to set up a kinetic link that sets in place the power of the golf swing, ’Äúpower first!”. All my work on club head control was way too premature in a way, worry about accuracy after/as you master power. NB, I don't read power as smashing the b-jesus out of it either, but another form of control that gives you that option : )

Secondly I see this happening in my game now. I'm not scoring better, ie accuracy, but my ball striking (power/distance) is 100% on a month or 2 ago. ( also my putting has gone to shit as I work on this solely). The scoring will follow suit shortly.

From what I hear of Dart this is very much his doctrine too? Power then accuracy?

I couldn’t agree more.

Remove ALL pressure against Power First. The Clubhead is a Wrecking Ball. Try to accelerate through the Ball. The Arms and Hands will only jerk the club around with more effort. Learn the Pivot and learn to use the Pivot to swing very hard.

Homer doesn’t tell you to back off if you become erratic as most Golfers do. He says that you may be simply losing a little Rhythm. So, keep a Flat Left Wrist (the #1 Alignment in Golf) to maintain Rhythm.

3-F-6 EXECUTION “All quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper execution. Neither the Hands nor the Club are flipped or swished around haphazardly. The ideal – even with an Automatic Release – is to be very deliberate, positive and Heavy. Never Dainty. Shorten the Stroke, slow the Stroke or delay the Release until a positive Clubhead Lag can give the hands a heavy Clubhead to drive (or swing) against the ball – at all speeds. See 6-F. Erratic execution indicates loss of Rhythm (2-G).”

One would think that a paragraph titled “EXECUTION”, that Homer would talk about tracing the plane-line or something. He doesn’t.

You’ll tire quickly if you swing mostly with your arms and hands. When the Pivot does the work, the hands can become “finesse” control.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 02 2009 11:48
Page 144

Very good FLW :)

Flatleftwrist
Aug 02 2009 11:48
Page 144

From Lagpressure:

This is why I teach a pivot driven hitting procedure, not a passive pivot hitting procedure that is based more so upon right arm thrust into the primary lever assembly. Myself and my students drive the primary lever assembly with the pivot, not the right arm.. we do as little disturbing to clubface alignments as possible keeping the right arm out of impact arena for this very reason that Homer states in 1-F…however.. we DO NOT give up the #2 and particularly the #3 accumulator potential.. we max it out.. pedal to the metal!

This is all nothing new.. every great ball striker drives the golf swing with a great pivot.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM!

Pick your poison.. motors or hinges… hit of swing.. but the pivot MUST be the driving force of a proper golf swing if you have any chance of flushing a ball consistently around a golf course.

I’ve read through your teaching strategy and I think that it’s the way the Golf Stroke should be taught. Impact, then Post Impact, then step backwards.

I don’t know why HK didn’t spell it out. He knew the Pivot Drives the Swing. I assume he could also appreciate the amount it did so given the quality of players of the day. But I think at that time, everyone was talking about the Pivot Driving the swing. He focused on his theories and maybe assumed we knew what he meant when he said Pivot.

When we consider TGM and Pivots, we should look at Pivots in the 40’s-50’s and 60’s. When he says Pivot Thrust, we should be Looking at Hogan and the like.

The Secondary Axis Tilt will hold the Right Shoulder On Plane while The Hip Turn delivers the Power Package to its Release Point, then Hip Action should again power the hands through the Impact Interval. Learning to keep the Hips Turning is not a Powerful Pivot.

Learning and teaching the Pivot to apply Pressure and keep applying Pressure to the Power Package (arms and hands) is a Golfing Pivot. This can be learned with the Shortest Strokes.

Hip Action; driving the Power Package occurs slightly before Release. The procedure I use, is an Axis Tilt to keep the Right Shoulder On Plane, a slight Sit Down during the Acceleration Sequence, then Hip Action to Drive the Shoulder Turn during the Release of the Accumulators. Keep the weight on your Right Leg. The weight shift is moving to the Left Leg but doesn’t arrive until after Impact.

At the very least, the Hips should lead and pull the Shoulders throughout the Downstroke and Impact. Pivot Lag. That’s a soft pivot.

It seems that Lagpressure teaches something entirely new. The Hip Action that I described above was demonstrated by Ben Doyle in his TGM Video Tape many years ago. To be honest, I’ve never heard of anyone mentioning it again. But, it works really well for me.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

lagpressure
Aug 02 2009 18:45
Page 144

Homer certainly wrote an epic book to say the least. I have great respect and admiration for his work. However, it would not be good science for us not to contemplate and question what has been put forth to this day as the Magna Carta of scientific golf analysis.

There are a lot of things at work in TGM.
We have an author that is sitting in an observation chair, not living in the body of Ben Hogan.

In no way does an engineering and scientific background guarantee long term results any more than the designers of the space shuttle did. Things can go wrong even with good education and intentions.

It should be acknowledged that from any reference or vantage point there will be limitations due to the very nature of where you are coming from.

A great player who writes a book based upon feel is not necessarily wrong, but may not be able to fully communicate what is happening due to simply not being fully aware of his or her actions. A lot of things I believe are taken for granted. Lots of assumptions.

I really believe that some fine strikers find the golden pathway through impact often stumbling by chance, and then just grind it into muscle memory without really knowing what it is they are experiencing on a more scientific or objective level. Likewise, an observation based instruction book might visually see what is going on but have no idea how to describe the forces that create such visual geometry and are only left guessing as to how the fine striker comes to such observable apparent reality.

I just finished re reading Knudson’s book.. took lots of notes and really tried to get into his head from where he was coming from.
George was dying as this book was being written, often with Lorne using a tape recorder on the days he was feeling good enough to get ideas flowing. From that perspective, the book makes perfect sense. George was long past his playing career, and had been teaching for many years, so I feel his book was geared toward helping typical golfers, the kind that would most likely visit him on the range for a lesson, or series of lessons. I don’t think George intentionally tried to water it down, but simply was communicating that golf should be an enjoyable experience, not just on the course, but within the body itself.. something I am sure he was incredibly in touch with being in the depressed state he was in at the time of it’s writing. It had to have a great effect upon the overall tone and feel of the book.. It’s message is loud and clear to me at least.

Hogan’s Five Fundamentals was written at or near the peak of his game.. with full biomechanical awareness of what he was feeling.
Completely different vantage point from Homer or Knudson.
Some suspect he didn’t really want to give it all away to his present or future opponents.

No matter what book comes out.. there will be followers, believers and critics.. but without doubt, the bottom line is.. does the reader process the information, find a way to implement it successfully in a way that the golf ball will respond to the golfers delight.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Flatleftwrist
Aug 02 2009 19:14
Page 144

The #4 Accumulator must be driven through Release and Impact and beyond. Otherwise moving away from the Chest during Release is fallout from the acceleration sequence. A CF Swing but an Impact without the Force that created the CF. That will cause quitting and throwaway. The Right Shoulder needs to drive and power the Left Arm (#4).

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 02 2009 19:48
Page 144

“and beyond”.... Lags 5th idea.

KevCarter
Aug 03 2009 06:33
Page 144

So the way I read this it's of utmost importance to get zone 1/2 going first and achieve power; club head control. Accuracy will come as you master that; club face control?

Firstly I think this is why I've gone to Bio for a screening. His work seems to be very much about this. The aim is to set up a kinetic link that sets in place the power of the golf swing, ’Äúpower first!”. All my work on club head control was way too premature in a way, worry about accuracy after/as you master power. NB, I don't read power as smashing the b-jesus out of it either, but another form of control that gives you that option : )

Secondly I see this happening in my game now. I'm not scoring better, ie accuracy, but my ball striking (power/distance) is 100% on a month or 2 ago. ( also my putting has gone to shit as I work on this solely). The scoring will follow suit shortly.

From what I hear of Dart this is very much his doctrine too? Power then accuracy?

I couldn't agree more.

Remove ALL pressure against Power First. The Clubhead is a Wrecking Ball. Try to accelerate through the Ball. The Arms and Hands will only jerk the club around with more effort. Learn the Pivot and learn to use the Pivot to swing very hard.

Homer doesn't tell you to back off if you become erratic as most Golfers do. He says that you may be simply losing a little Rhythm. So, keep a Flat Left Wrist (the #1 Alignment in Golf) to maintain Rhythm.

3-F-6 EXECUTION ’ÄúAll quick, jerky and wobbly motions are improper execution. Neither the Hands nor the Club are flipped or swished around haphazardly. The ideal – even with an Automatic Release – is to be very deliberate, positive and Heavy. Never Dainty. Shorten the Stroke, slow the Stroke or delay the Release until a positive Clubhead Lag can give the hands a heavy Clubhead to drive (or swing) against the ball – at all speeds. See 6-F. Erratic execution indicates loss of Rhythm (2-G).”

One would think that a paragraph titled ’ÄúEXECUTION”, that Homer would talk about tracing the plane-line or something. He doesn't.

You'll tire quickly if you swing mostly with your arms and hands. When the Pivot does the work, the hands can become ’Äúfinesse” control.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

WOW FLW,

3-F-6 is a real gem. Thank you for getting that out in front of us!

Kevin

He who dies with the most friends, wins.

Tigersworld
Aug 03 2009 10:54
Page 144

I have a two questions Lag you earlier in this thread stated you knew why Mr Hogan dragged his right foot could you fill me in. Second question what do you think about the role of the underside of the shaft during the downswing. The 6 o'clock position all the way to head

JuNiOR

Junior, is the underside of the shaft a reference to Martinez's ’Äúaiming the blade” concept? He has some interesting views on the swing he calls bow to crossbow.

Yes CheeseDonkey but waiting for Lag's feelings and input on the underside of the shaft ;-) / Mr Hogans right foot drag question.

JuNiOR

Well let me just ask one question to Lag…..What do you think of Martin Martinez methodology.

JuNiOR

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

lagpressure
Aug 03 2009 14:16
Page 144

The right foot is not a passive drag.. it only moves horizontally because at some point it loses the tug of war to the rotation of the torso.
A player has to be very careful not to interpret this wrong…
However, you’ll never get it right until the proper cohesive body tensions exist throughout the body. Think of twisting a towel pressuring in opposing directions from both ends.. then you are getting close.

I’ll check out Martin…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 03 2009 14:34
Page 144

Ok,

Just checked out Martin..

I like a pivot driven swing.. and the feeling of not ever wanting to deliberately roll the clubface over.. that all sounds really good.

I can’t claim to know the rest of his methodology from a two minute
youtube clip.. but those two ideas are very good if you want to hit the golf ball straight.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Tigersworld
Aug 03 2009 16:19
Page 144

Thanks for taking the time Lag. Check out some of his stuff Martin Martinez has the same high respect for Mr Ben Hogan and Mr Moe Norman as you. The golf swing so delicate from day to day but certain ideas and fundamentals of what is happening in the swing make life much easier to deal with day to day with no regression which I luv.

http://www.youtube.com/user...

JuNiOR

iseekgolfguru
Aug 04 2009 16:56
Page 144

His ‘what is release’ clip shows CF at work and the left side power accumulators. His description of release is another example of how words are used in different parts of the word different ways.

His release is loading in our book and his funny grip use shows how the right side supports and does not power a CF swing.

Notice how he keeps a FLW, with Lag delivered On Plane.

macs
Aug 05 2009 12:59
Page 144

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Has any one seen this swing of Amari Avery at age 5. there is also an ABC feature about her.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

Prot
Aug 06 2009 00:07
Page 144

You know as interesting as all of this is, and I do mean that… I have to say after reading months of this Golfing Machine jargon, I have zero desire to read the book.

Frankly, I believe in the fundamentals of the book but I’d much rather have someone like Lag, or whomever disseminate the information for me. Not because I’m lazy, far from it, but because I am an over thinker. I can be one of those paralysis from analysis kinds of people.

I thoroughly analyze my own swing, but with the information given to me, with the fundamentals taught to me.

If I were baking a cake using a recipe book written by Homer Kelly, I would come out of the experience knowing how to bake about 10 different kinds of cake, but scared to try any one of them. Then when I felt up to it I would finally bake a cake that would look like crap, and taste like a hell.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

waffle_iron
Aug 06 2009 00:21
Page 144

Just hit the ball Prot

the greatest game ever played

stinkler
Aug 06 2009 00:54
Page 144

I’m with you Prot, that’s why I got a screening with Bio and am working on my movement patterns without analysis in the process of application, just perform the PST’s and learn how to hit the thing.

Captain_Chaos
Aug 06 2009 04:55
Page 144

Hey Lag,

I have a quick observation about the #5 accumulator and getting left after impact. I’ll put it in “common parlance” as I don’t sprechen TGM. ;)

For me, it seems to help to cue in on the inside of my right arm at the bend (as in the side opposite the elbow) on the through-swing and through impact. I’ve always had trouble getting left (because of a stalling pivot), but concentrating on the right inside of the arm seems to help dramatically. I’m also able to get the arms off my chest in dramatic fashion doing just this (#5 accumulator).

Am I doing something that will help my swing or am I on the wrong track?

Hogan even appears to swing the inside of his left arm (opposite elbow) at his right shoulder. I’ll have to explore this further.

Cheers,
Scott

Flatleftwrist
Aug 06 2009 06:06
Page 145

Why must the Release Point be the P3 Location?

If the Ball should be struck with a Level Left Wrist (a level left wrist is between fully cocked and fully uncocked) shouldn’t the Release point be somewhere between P3 and Impact?

Just Curious.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Tigersworld
Aug 06 2009 09:58
Page 145

Why must the Release Point be the P3 Location?

If the Ball should be struck with a Level Left Wrist (a level left wrist is between fully cocked and fully uncocked) shouldn't the Release point be somewhere between P3 and Impact?

Just Curious.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

“Why must the Release Point be the P3” not for me thats where the meat of the swing power is stored waiting for proper sequence to release with proper pivot.

JuNiOR

iseekgolfguru
Aug 06 2009 10:26
Page 145

Different Release points, Sweep, Random or Snap, all require different pivot motions.

Release in here is “where the wrist uncocks”.

Prot: I know what you mean about Homers cake.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 06 2009 14:14
Page 145

Different Release points, Sweep, Random or Snap, all require different pivot motions.

Release in here is ’Äúwhere the wrist uncocks”.

Prot: I know what you mean about Homers cake.

Triggered by the Right Elbow Straightening.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

lagpressure
Aug 06 2009 17:05
Page 145

Captain Chaos..

If you turn your torso, the shoulders will move, because they are connected like a coat hanger..

Keeping the arms in close to the body both on the backswing and follow through is a good time tested protocol.

If you are really hitting with the pivot, then the arms are much better to come off the body after P4 not before. This keeps the clubshaft on plane and then you can rip the arms off the body into a 5th accumulator pressure pull.

This however, is not a path for swingers..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Tigersworld
Aug 06 2009 17:19
Page 145
If you turn your torso, the shoulders will move, because they are connected like a coat hanger..

Keeping the arms in close to the body both on the backswing and follow through is a good time tested protocol.

Here is a good source for the visual guys I think this guy knows his stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

JuNiOR

TheDart
Aug 07 2009 13:37
Page 145

Thanks junior,

I have been looking for that tape for years. It is my basic teaching drill and I am glad I can now show Ben doing it.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

TheDart
Aug 07 2009 14:33
Page 145

I strongly suspect Homer never really understood the importance of post impact pivot thrust to deal with sustaining lag pressure, holding shaft flex therefore maximizing ball compression. It's all there in chapter two in the diagrams… I know he understood it exists.. but his lack of emphasis upon the HUGE benefits of pursuing such ideals is not forgivable in my eyes… and this is why I think Mac went AOL and why we never have seen a TGM guy dominate the tour ball striking stats as one would certainly expect.

Of course, we are here to change all that!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

Homers intro Xlll: “Please remember that this handbook is intended to serve as a manual and tries to adhere to a textbook style of writing which customarily escrews selling, debating, reminiscing, opinions and hilarity”. He is not forcing you to learn anything rather he is permitting you to evaluate for your self so as you learn more deeply. So as you know beyond any doubt. You should thank him for your certainty.

I too have cursed my teachers. Then I learned the great benefit of giving the pupil the dignity of absorbing and applying for themselves. They now have their own knowledge rather than a second hand hand-me-down that could be discarded at it’s first failure.

I thought that if I payed enough I would learn everything. It did not happen until I took Full Responsibility for my knowledge and application.

Here is one I learned. “Conscious hand manipulation is indispensable in the learning process. Those involved with swinging components will grasp the geometry of their force and motion. And it will be seen that great diversity in procedure can be differentiated and patterned in total detail”.

Happy teaching.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

lagpressure
Aug 10 2009 03:15
Page 145

For some reason, most people believe wrongly that the golf swing is over once the ball leaves the clubface. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Homer did talk about “treating the heavy feel of impact as if the whole thing were impact, even though the ball is long gone”.

Homer clearly understood that a ball being struck with acceleration trumps one being struck by momentum only given the same initial impact velocity.. it’s all over chapter #2.

Homer is clear enough, at least to me, that striking the ball with a pre stressed clubshaft is superior to a longitudinally straightened one.
All over chapter #2 again.

Therefore this stuff is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT…

The simple fact that Homer omitted a description of a lever assembly that would include [Force – Fulcrum – weight] being (Pivot – left shoulder (pp #4) – (arms hands shoulders) ] or in simpler terms a pivot driven lever.. is tragic.

A pivot driven level assembly is the primary lever assembly for every great ball striker, but is omitted in TGM..

WHY?

Why not a separate component for torso rotation options and variations including single and two stage firing options?

It’s only the most important thing that creates lag, pressure, and feel..

The only reason I can think the omission occurred is that Homer like others simply didn’t understand the importance or magnitude of it…

Why is a pivot driven lever assembly missing from TGM?

I’m all ears..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Flatleftwrist
Aug 10 2009 06:29
Page 145

“Why is a pivot driven lever assembly missing from TGM?

I'm all ears..”

Ben Doyle, is all about the Pivot. How many times have you heard him say “Load it, store it, Shoot it”? He doesn’t say “Load it, Store it, then whack it with your hands”. Have you asked him what “Shoot it” means? He’ll say, “shoot the Primary Lever with the PIVOT”.

Ben Doyle produced a DVD describing the 24 components. More than 50% of this DVD is about the Pivot. No matter what he says about the 24 components he never fails to relate each of them to the Pivot, as I recollect.

Written across Ben’s forehead is “Never move the Club with your Hands. The Hands are moved by the Pivot.”

The Pivot will deliver the Hands to Release, then Shoot the Primary Lever though Impact. Hip Action. Load the Feet. Load the Feet, Load the Feet, Load the Feet.

TGM is about the hands sensing, directing and applying Pivot Forces.

How many times have you heard and read that Zone #3 can only be as good as Zone #1.

Does that answer your question?


Allow me to give you and example before you read 7-12.

In one paragraph, Homer says – (the Pivot) “is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad” and Second, it then becomes “the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger's orbiting Left Arm.

Homer is describing a sequenced pivot for a Straight Line Delivery Path. Sit-down, then Hip action. Ben’s “Shoot the Lever”.

This is a two Stage Pivot that you asked about in the previous post. It’s basic TGM.



Please review the following:

7-12 PIVOT The Pivot is the utilization of multiple centers to produce a circular motion for generating Clubhead Force on an adjustable Plane. Plus the maintenance of balance throughout the weight shifts that accompany the turning and bending of the necessary for the two Line Delivery Paths. A Pivot is on superficially correct that fails to maintain alignments or allows the player to get ’Äúout of position”.

It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitters driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger's orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3).

It is the sequencing and spacing of Zone #1 Stroke Components. It consists of – as separate and distinct elements – the motions and actions of the Shoulders, Hips, Knees and Feet. The term Pivot is relative in that it can be classified as anything between Full motion and Zero motion and may include all, part or none of the possible Component Motions and actions. It defines their participation (6-M-1) including the requirements of Plane Angle and Stance Line Variations (10-12, 10-15-0). It is Zone #1, the first and foundational of the three Zones in Chapter 9. Study 2-0, 9-0 and items 1 and 2 under Sketch 1-L.

As Stroke Component, the term PIVOT refers only to the degree and direction of its own motion as the framework or pattern within which all the Pivot Components must be arranged and adjusted. The relative participation of the individual Pivot Components is always determined under their own Pattern references. ALL motion – Pivot and Power Package – moves parallel to the selected Delivery Line. That is, prior to the Downstroke Turn, a Slide parallel with either the Angle of Approach or the Plane line per 2-J-3.”


Do you see in the last paragraph above where homer says: “The relative participation of the individual Pivot Components is always determined under their own Pattern references.”

That means that you should feel free to design your own Pivot for your Stoke Pattern but that each component should be designed within their component variations in chapter 10. Homer is saying that you should do it because nobody else is going to do it for you.

There are different types of Pivots. There are Pivots for Circle Path deliveries as well as Pivots for Straight Line Delivery Paths. They can be as delicate as needed for a three foot chip shot or as Violently Powerful as needed for a 300 yard Drive. Or Zero. Players option to fit the Stoke needed at hand.

Use the Components in TGM to design your own Pivot. Create five or six or as many as you can remember. But keep in mind, the Pivot moves the Primary Lever.

Lagpressure,

You’re an accomplished Golfer, knowledgeable in TGM and you’ve studied with Ben Doyle and Moe. You should be designing pivots but you choose to use your arms and hands in the pursuit of distance. You can’t have it both ways. So, you’ve found a Pivot technique that can drive the swing and align the hands through Impact. That’s simply a Pivot Controlled Hands Procedure. Nothing wrong with that.

Hey, if you have any more questions, just ask.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Styles
Aug 10 2009 07:44
Page 145

just one FLW…

...who are you?!!

Superb knowledge of the yellow book displayed there!

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Flatleftwrist
Aug 10 2009 07:53
Page 145

just one FLW…

...who are you?!!

Superb knowledge of the yellow book displayed there!

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

I’m just your average friendly neighborhood TGM’er.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 10 2009 10:06
Page 145

Gotta love Pivot Controlled Hands:)

Flatleftwrist
Aug 10 2009 10:34
Page 145

Gotta love Pivot Controlled Hands:)

You should. It’s been keeping Golf Teachers in Business for 100 years. :)

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 10 2009 11:13
Page 145

oh oh oh someone who gets my sense of humor :)

lagpressure
Aug 10 2009 17:04
Page 145

FLW,

You seem to have completely missed my point.
But that is ok.. I’m used to it..

The primary lever assembly described in TGM is not driven (force applied) by the pivot with the left shoulder as the fulcrum.

The primary lever assembly must be pivot driven. Not driven into any of the pressure points in the hands. Those would have to be secondary lever assemblies.

Doyle is all about pivot yes, but encourages the arms to fly off the body just after impact. This disconnects the #4 pressure point when it is needed the most. The arms being thrown off the body moves the shaft into a post impact parallel plane that is in fact “off plane” (unless you swing like Moe, and no one did). This is how all of the Doyle students back in my era were swinging… and few had any idea where the ball was going.

Thrusting or driving the right arm pre maturely disturbs clubface alignments through the impact arena, just as Homer says. Dual horizontal hinging that Doyle supports is at best a questionable procedure. It leaves the player in a hell bracket between over acceleration and a post impact pivot stall. Time it right and you are fine… otherwise, bring lots of golf balls.

I heard Mc Hatton is now teaching an angled hinge. I won’t take credit for talking him out of the Doyle approach, but we did have a long debate about it once while I was giving him feedback from my transition from swinging to hitting. basically he asked me why I would want to pull the club out of the down and out orbit, and I explained to him how this pull put huge feel in the hands, great pressure, keeps the shaft actually on plane, limits unnecessary post impact clubface rotation, and was filling my bank account with prize money.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Flatleftwrist
Aug 10 2009 21:49
Page 145

Admittedly, the outer boundaries of my knowledge are two yellow book covers.

You’re on the cutting edge. Your post impact acceleration concept is the most interesting idea to come along in decades and your teaching approach is outstanding. I hope you can publish as soon as you’re ready.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

lagpressure
Aug 11 2009 02:32
Page 145

I am not teaching anything new.. every great ball striker has had great post impact pivot acceleration.. Look at Walter Hagen in the hickory age. The only thing I might be doing is hitting everyone over the head with a sledgehammer about the pitfalls of lightweight modern clubs that offer much less opportunity for thrust in the golf swing. We need resistance to pressure against so we can FEEL THE GOLF CLUB!

Why do you think so many tour players are struggling with these 10 ounce drivers? They simply can’t feel the clubhead the way they need to.

It’s much harder to over accelerate an axe than a toothpick.

Bill Mehlhorn new about all this in the 1930’s. they messed with lightweight clubs back then, I know this because I have a few sets of them…and they ran the other way because back then golf courses were built for accuracy. Tight fairways, small greens.

Heavy clubs offer resistance for the golfer’s power accumulators to drive into… so they can feel the club properly.

If you go through TGM, how many times does Homer say “through the ball”.

Homer is all over sustaining the line of compression through holding shaft flex in chapter #2. It’s all there, but I just don’t understand how he could oversight what should be the primary lever assembly.. the real one.. the pivot driven one.

Force- fulcrum- weight.

Pivot- left shoulder- club

I also disagree with geometry over physics.

Physics creates the geometry. But of course it must be the proper application of force.. not haphazard nonsense.

I really believe that to swing on plane, your intentions have to be somewhere else.. then you end up on plane by applying opposing forces, not by trying to be on plane, or walking a tightrope.

The hands are either passive or they are active, they are either motors or they are hinges. Swinger or hitter.

Ben loves the passive hands.. hinges… shaft releasing at P3, as confirmed by Wishon and others..

Hogan says “three right hands” so did Snead.. Doyle loved those swings.. but teaches dead passive hands… limp as biscuits, who do you believe..

Doyle shot 74 at Cypress Point once. I was there that day. Ben could get it around a bit.. but not like Hogan or Snead is my point.

Were they lying to us? Promoting active hands? Firing the right hand at impact? Bad Idea? for their competition yes!!!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Flatleftwrist
Aug 11 2009 07:31
Page 145

Geometry is “Relationships”, Physics is “Work”.

You aren’t forced to believe – but you are forced to comply whether the two work simultaneously as you recommend or separately as Homer recommends.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Weetbix
Aug 11 2009 07:33
Page 145

Couldn’t agree more about the good physics creating good mechanics. I haven’t practiced any mechanics over the last 3 months except getting my grip and clubface setup at address right. And am swinging better that I ever have by a long way because Bio’s exercises are improving my physics. And good physics are producing the lag, they are producing the FLW and they are producing a good swing plane – which is actually very flat and makes me feel quite Hogan-ish! Not because I am trying to create those things, because they are created by good physics.

We can see these things in the great ball strikers because they have good physics and it creates the geometry. Not the other way around. Then add a decent setup (including as you have said before Lag a grip that your body will develop to cope with the pressure as you hit the impact bag), and you have a reliable full swing with plenty of power (my 250m/275y drives that I’m now getting are not massive, but I can play good golf with that length and I’m only a couple of months into the training and have added 20m).

I think the focus on hinge actions and things like that really come into their own around the green. That is where TGM stuff feels most valuable to me at the moment.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

Flatleftwrist
Aug 11 2009 09:12
Page 145

Why does the Clubhead strike the Ball and not whoosh above or along side of it?

Do the Physics seek out the Delivery Line?

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 09:18
Page 145

FLW, not related to Daryl are we?

a) The clubhead hits the ball because that’s what you’re aiming for?
b) Pure luck?
c) Because of the creator?
d) The G word?

What gets the clubhead to the ball?
a) FLW
b) BRW
c) Angle hinge
e) The P word?

baz37
Aug 11 2009 09:38
Page 145

This thread continues to fascinate and at times confuse me.

A simple question, as a left hander playing golf right handed I have trouble getting and keeping my right side/hand in play. Should I be working on “swinging” or “hitting” ??

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 09:49
Page 145

Simple question? Hate to break it to you but I doubt that is. Let’s see.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 11 2009 09:59
Page 145

Weetbix and Stinkler: Everything has to be aimed and directed. Physics itself will NOT hit the ball. Your pivot only does so much then your arms and hands have to do the work.

Unless you wish to sit and read and learn TGM which caters for all parts that are in motion, then you will struggle to tie in ball control with only your pivot.

Mentally because you are learning from a Pivot direction you are attempting to place info that will support your learning practice into “tick the box” Yep, Nope, Yep’s. You will have to learn to look outside the box as well as in it to gain the full benefit.

Lags thread is getting highjacked a little here by way too much emphasis on pivot when he clearly is directing hands being thrust by his arm strength upon a fast finishing pivot. Miss one of those points and his pattern is not going to be grasped to use as a pattern model.

Lags greatest idea is “no not decelerate through the ball.”
His method prevents it happening. Work everything else from that basis and more light bulbs fire up.

Baz: I am left handed and play right. You can do either but you must know which you wish to use to power it all. If you can throw right handed hard, then you can hit and hit hard. If you throw like a girl right handed then swinging will be of more use power and control wise using the on plane right forearm to support the shoulders down plane drive.

baz37
Aug 11 2009 10:39
Page 146

Guru,

Throwing right handed is difficult although I have been working on it.

The strong left side can leave the right behind.

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 10:40
Page 146

So does Physics not apply to anything but Pivot/Zone#1? I would have thought Physics would apply to all Zones including the arms/hands? Will good Physics not return the hands to a square impact if that’s where you start? Manipulation of that relationship to square would be mechanics? Is good impact part of good physics? If there is no impact your physics aren’t working as the ball wont move and that’s what the ‘work’ is for.
BTW, weeties and I have both stated we ARE in fact learning hinges etc as well through TGM study. What you say goes both ways of course.

I think this is relevant to Lags ideas and I apologise if not. Passive hands vs three right hands? All the talk of loading etc, Lag sounds to me to be very into Physics? Doing the stuff I’m doing makes me more into blades and ‘heavier’ clubs too as Lag is. I almost cant hit my GI irons now, hate the look and feel.

I’m not professing Physics over Geometry, just that maybe it’s better to start at Physics first. Good Physics will lead to the basis of good geometry, from there with TGM the “tour is your oyster’ so to speak.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 11 2009 11:20
Page 146

Well you guys do profess the physics via a pivot first and foremost and it always reads to those who come along in here as ‘pivot well and you are going to hit the ball’.

Good physics alone will not hit the ball if that arms are not told where to go. Simple example. Tie two bits of string to your shoulders and to the golf club at the other end. Now make a world class core pivot. Was that club in control?

Of course not. The arms have to lift the bomb (clubhead). The arms have to drop the bomb (on the pivot) and the hands have to control the clubface either via CF or manual hinge action.

Effortless power works better than powerful effort. That’s why geometry and the aiming/support of whatever power needed is where we teach first.

Different pivots allow for different geometry to be utilised towards ball flights. TGM already allows for many different pivot actions, not just one. Are some pivots more effective than others? Of course.

OK now we have the bomb lifted and know where its going, we can talk foot loading, pivot drag, drive etc etc. Now I have a road map and can chose the bike, car or tank.

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 11:38
Page 146

So Physics is just the pivot and does not extend beyond there at all?
Aren’t physics involved in the full golf swing, right through to the end? The Physics involved are not possible without your arms attached, or at least one! That’s what the example shows.
The full link throughout all zones involve Physics, it’s not limited to just the legs/hips pivot.
Is a FLW geometry? Or is it the result of good physics?
Just trying to come to grips with all these ideas, not arguing, just want to learn: )

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 11:57
Page 146

Another thought, in order to get a HH which is geometry(?), you have to employ Physics don’t you by a part of the engine (human body) acting/working to make it happen? You have to physically apply that geometric situation? Did I make that word up? Sorry.
I’ve got to lie down, head hurts.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 11 2009 12:41
Page 146

hehe I know that head hurts feeling.

Geometry and Effort have to work together.

Hinge actions and FLW can be either a result of CF or manual manipulation. Pulled or pushed. Depends where the effort is coming from to drag or drive.

The full link you mention above gets to the point of the near end of the ‘chain’ are your hands/clamps on the club. Pulled or pushed if they have idea where they are going, the ball flight is in likely to be more consistent. For a swing, pivot pulled arms, the mind in the hands to control where the power is being directed is Hand Controlled Pivot – even though the pivot is doing the work the hands are being aimed not just flung somewhere out there. Educated Hands on an Educated Pivot.

If the hands are just being flung ‘coz the pivot pulls them and throws them out there, then that’s Pivot Controlled Hands. It is not precise enough for most players to learn and progress with.

Lag in here often says that he could not play with such loose hands.

Weetbix
Aug 11 2009 13:28
Page 146

The thing is though that I have done NOTHING to improve my geometry specifically (I may have improved them as part of the PST, but I have no idea). All I have done in the last 3 months is the PST. And some chipping. And even in teh chipping I haven’t been doing the drills around FLW, tracing the plane line or anything like that, not specifically. In fact I’ve moved to a pivot driven chip if that even makes sense.

Anyway, what I know is that I am absolutely hitting the ball better than I ever have. The people I play with comment on it. My shots demonstrate it. While I am still getting my basic grip set up sorted (ok, my bad – there is some geometry there, which is that I have started to set up with the club face a little more square compared to it being a bit closed before), My contact across the board is much better. I am getting compression, backspin on the wedges and short irons, and distance on my driver. All of this with only the PST.

I am sure that I am aiming – but not through working on my geometry. I am definitely not trying to trace any path, I have no idea about what my line to the ball looks like, I am not aware of my wedges (although I certainly know that my hands are actively working against weight but I am in no way attempting to train them to maintain FLW or BRW, or when or how to unleash the club – I have no idea how active or passive they are but if I had to guess I would say they are active but completely unconsciously).

Make of that what you want – I don’t understand it. I’ve done a total of around 12 hours of actual exercises over the last 3 months and my swing is totally transformed. It is flat instead of upright. It is much shorter. I am having to change my setup clubface alignment because the old alignment now produces a really strong draw or hook, when before I fought a push/slice. All this without consciously working on anything goemetrical, and without any swing pattern to aim at – this is just how my body has responded to the exercises. I have no idea whether the PST generally flattens your swing or whether that’s just me.

And with only 12 hours of practice. 12 hours of exercises that you would probably chuckly about if you saw me – I can’t figure out how they’ve made so much difference. But I can see it, my playing partners can see it. The ball is feeling it! And I just hit 89 with 38 putts and 11 chips – so only 40 full shots, which means 5 over on the long game.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 13:57
Page 146

I have no idea how active or passive they are but if I had to guess I would say they are active but completely unconsciously

As much as this appears to be pivot focused, I still feel very hands driven. My hands don’t feel passive, I’ve played so much Tennis/Badminton/Baseball/Cricket that I think my hands could never be passive. Now they just have something to control as my pivot was so shit before : )
I definitely don’t see Bio’s work as passive hands/pivot controlled hands. It’s not biased either way. Just because you develop a great powerful pivot doesn’t mean it will control the hands does it?

I’m still a little confused re whether it’s physics or geometry to use the hands. The hands have an action, they work, there is physics involved. Their geometric position is the result of the physics applied?
There is physics involved in all hinges, FLW, BRW, etc etc. The more in control the hand the more physics involved?

BPGS1
Aug 11 2009 14:10
Page 146

Excellent discussion here, and as usual I find myself in 100% agreement with Lag’s ideas. Once you are at P3, no need to aim anything – not pressure points in your hands, not the hands themselves and certainly not the clubhead. Just learn to Pivot Thrust correctly with Super-Connected upper arms to chest to well past impact, and you can hit the ball just as well with your eyes closed as eyes open. Aiming is just another word for steering or what I like to call the Manipulation Impulse.

You do need to use the arms to move themselves into the proper takeaway and top of backswing positions as Guru said. But if you know how to make a proper Transition with passive arms – lateral weight shift and right spine tilt, you can do nothing with the arms, forearms, wrists and hands all the way to the Finish. Or you can use the muscles in your wrists/forearms to fire the wrist cock angle open very fast from deep into P3 position to match the very fast unwinding speed of a late but fast Pivot Thrust. If you Pivot Thrust from an earlier P3 position, then you need to do a more passive wrist cock angle release, as you will be Pivot Thrusting at a slower RPM speed, and a fast uncocking of the wrists from muscle power will cause you to hit it fat and to the right as the clubhead will reach Low Point too soon, relative to your body pivot.

Keep on describing it like you have been Lag, and eventually a lot of skeptics may start to see the light.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 11 2009 14:15
Page 146

I could lift my hands anywhere. In golf we have to take it up plane and down plane. You guys are learning that.

Without knowing “where” there is no point in ‘how do I power it’. Consider it as working out a concept and doing the drawings. Now the mechanics of how to get from A to B come into play. What drives those mechanical applications are our body machine. Some motions beat others in being more helpful than a hinderance.

Once you know where, options come about in the how to dept.

Weetbix
Aug 11 2009 17:59
Page 146

I could lift my hands anywhere. In golf we have to take it up plane and down plane. You guys are learning that.

Without knowing ’Äúwhere” there is no point in ‘how do I power it'. Consider it as working out a concept and doing the drawings. Now the mechanics of how to get from A to B come into play. What drives those mechanical applications are our body machine. Some motions beat others in being more helpful than a hinderance.

Once you know where, options come about in the how to dept.

All of this is probably true, and if you analysed my swing you’d probably be able to show me what I am and what I’m not doing. But the thing with the Progressive Skills Training is that I don’t know these things. I’m not learning any of them, at least not consciously. I don’t think anywhere I have mentioned pivot. I’ve mentioned physics because Bio uses that term. But in the end I am “learning” nothing. All I am doing is “training”. I am not consciously making any particular move with my hands. I am not consciously training my plane. I am not consciously training my hands. I am not consciously creating lag. I am not consciously working on my pivot, or my arms, or my hands.

However they are all being trained. The PST is simply a way to train. You can go to the range and analyse your divots and ball flight and work on your swing, or stand in front of a mirror and watch what your body is doing and work on your swing. You can imagine an underarm throw or punching a midget or smooth and oily or skipping a stone. These are all aimed at trying to improve your golf swing. And people have achieved great results with them. Another option is PST. Bio would agree that you need more than just PST – there are definitely mechanics and alignments that you need to have. But for a major portion of what is required to achieve a consident, powerful and repeatable swing you can do the PST. And in 3 months of exercises totalling about 12 hours of actual drills I have experienced a total renovation of my swing.

So I think that this is incredibly good results for what can only be described as a pretty minor investment of time, and cash. And that is all I’m saying. I am not discounting any of what you said. But I certainly do not believe that all that the PST achieves is a better pivot. There are exercises for all three areas. For one thing the exercises teach you quality forearm and hand positions at impact, because you hit the impact bag very hard and if you weren’t supporting the club with yoru right forearm and if you weren’t squaring the clubface you’d know about it.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

stinkler
Aug 11 2009 18:10
Page 146

Glad you said you didn’t mention pivot Weeties, that seems to have been thrust upon us. I too think all this work goes well beyond that. You can’t hit the bag with just a pivot, the arms and hands all need to be involved. It’s a complete swing thing!
But I fear we’re hijacking again,,,,

Weetbix
Aug 11 2009 20:12
Page 146

Hey Lag

I took a video of a couple of practice swings in the backyard and when I had a look at the down the line shots it reminded me of what you’ve said about going left after impact. Does this look like what you are talking about?
Youtube – 11 Aug 09

Probably kidding myself but I thought it might be worth asking! :)

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

macs
Aug 12 2009 03:27
Page 146

Weet
I am sorry to tell you but that swing is not even close to what Lag has been teaching.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

lagpressure
Aug 12 2009 04:40
Page 146

Weet,

Your swing plane looks flatter than last time I saw it.. sounds like some of Bio’s stuff is helping. Good..

A flatter swing plane does embrace a more pivot driven swing.. the only way to really get the hands up high is to manipulate the arms to do so.

Of course there are things I would like to see you work on, but improvement is improvement and that should not be argued! I can see you have been working on some good things.. keep it up..

keep us posted on your progress..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 12 2009 04:44
Page 146

BP,

Good to see you back here..
hope summer school teaching was fun up in Oregon..
shoot me an email when you get a chance!

lagpressure@yahoo.com

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Beezneeds
Aug 12 2009 04:47
Page 146

Lag – would you mind talking upright armswing + flat shoulder turn for us?

Is this a correct idea?

Should the arms match the shoulders?

Do you feel your arms going up in any way?

Hope there’s another there for you to tee off on…...

Cheers,
B

Beezneeds
Aug 12 2009 04:47
Page 146

Lag – would you mind talking upright armswing + flat shoulder turn for us?

Is this a correct idea?

Should the arms match the shoulders?

Do you feel your arms going up in any way?

Hope there’s another there for you to tee off on…...!

Cheers,
B

lagpressure
Aug 12 2009 04:50
Page 146

By the way..

A big congrats to PROT for finally breaking 80 for the first time ever!

Great stuff..

I think I predicted back in January that it would take him till August to do it. I’m glad that prediction was this August and not 2010! lol

For those who have been following his thread, it might be time for a bit of reflection on his journey over there. He worked hard, did the module work, and got results.

Once again, congratulations on achieving one of golfs biggest milestones. Enjoy it, it only happens once.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Beezneeds
Aug 12 2009 04:55
Page 146

Here hear (anyone know which one is right?).

lagpressure
Aug 12 2009 05:14
Page 146

Beez,

Some plane shifting is going to happen or else the shaft would be just above our belt line at the top of the backswing.

However, I like to feel like my swing is that flat…

The amount that the arms move up, or slide upward across the chest on the backswing really defines our plane shift.

I try to keep this to a minimum.. the less plane shifting the better..
the more simpler the golf swing feels, and the more connected the arms are to the pivot. Also, the less the arms move up, the less they have to drop back down.

This drop back down can be aided by the straightening of the right arm on the downswing. It’s a tricky move, very odd feeling, yet highly effective when mastered properly.

Now, like Guru said, the hands have to know what to do..

Now in the case of hitting which is typically what I promote to my students, the degree of flatness, must first be determined by the effectiveness of the hands from P3 to impact.

Trying to go flat without proper hand firing either active or passive will likely yield very poor ball striking.

This is exactly why I start off my students at impact.. not address.

With the proper application of forces into the hitting arena, we often see radical changes in the players backswing, downswing, address position… and even the grip.

The P3 4:30 line I teach students, sets them up with their pivot exactly where it needs to be if they are interested in moving toward a more advanced ball striking protocol down the road. The better players get it quickly, beginners struggle for a while, but when they finally get it.. the results can be astonishing.

It takes patience, hard work and dedication. just ask Prot!
He was as bad as you could get when he started last Nov.
yesterday a 79. That’s a realistic time table. But because he has done a lot of the hard work, he can put his sights on par golf in the next couple of years, where that was not in the cards for him last year.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

BPGS1
Aug 12 2009 05:57
Page 146

Okay – Lag, I will try calling you soon to catch up.

My two cents on arm motion, since this is the heart of the Balance Point swing model.The amount of upward independent upper arm motion (upper arms moving themselves with muscle-power) in a truly simple – fewest required moving body parts – and effective golf swing during the backswing phase is very little. About three to eight inches for most folks, measured in hand travel, a bit more for tall and flexible golfers. At least as much or more is the amount of hand travel in the width dimension, again – independent arm motion. About six to ten inches all of it accomplished by end of takeaway. This is pushing the hands away from the chest from the upper arm/shoulder joint.

When the right arm folds during second half of backswing, the left arm goes straight up toward the sky, again by just a few inches if you are striving to arrive at the Turned Shoulder Plane at the Top, as we teach.

For most of our students, this is visually about 80-90% less independent arm motion than they had previously imagined was correct. From a feel perspective, at the early stages of learning, it feels like you are only doing a waist high backswing.

This arm motion is occuring simultaneously with a full coil to maximum range of motion of the shoulder girdle. Because of the sideways triangle pressure and arm stretch (extensor action) and extension pressure in the arms, the independent arm motion will stop just as the shoulders stop coiling, or a fraction of a second earlier.

Remember – at least 50% to 75% of what causes the hands to arrive at the Top in a good backswing is dependent arm motion caused by shoulder rotation on a forward spine angle. Most of our students have never heard of this concept before taking our golf schools.

The same for the downswing, the shoulders un-winding – along with right spine tilt – bring the arms/hands down. You don’t need to do anything else to bring the arms/hands down – no arm drop required.

stinkler
Aug 12 2009 07:29
Page 146

BP, when you say unwinding, what do you mean? Muscles don’t act like springs, you can’t coil them up and unwind them. Do you mean when the muscles fire?
The shoulders also have little turn right? If you only turn shoulders without spine you get maybe 10*? It’s the spine that does quite a bit? Too much in many cases? So there will be many muscle groups in the torso that need to fire as well to bring the upper torso (shoulders) back around?

BPGS1
Aug 12 2009 08:52
Page 146

BP, when you say unwinding, what do you mean? Muscles don't act like springs, you can't coil them up and unwind them. Do you mean when the muscles fire?
The shoulders also have little turn right? If you only turn shoulders without spine you get maybe 10*? It's the spine that does quite a bit? Too much in many cases? So there will be many muscle groups in the torso that need to fire as well to bring the upper torso (shoulders) back around?

Yes – call it what you will, rotating, unwinding, uncoiling, pivoting, turning. I should have used the term “shoulder girdle” instead of shoulders. Its never just muscles obviously, bones are moving too. Spine is rotating as well, the entire torso of course is also involved in this rotation, and the hip girdle too. I was referring to the fact that the upper end of this torso rotation is the shoulder girdle and it raises and lowers the arms dependently, at the same time as the arms are moving themselves independently in the up and down dimension.

No, muscles are not springs but the term coiling is descriptive for how the “empty muscles” at address (Hogan’s term) are loaded with stretch pressure at the Top as the shoulder girdle reaches it’s maximum range of motion.

Yes, several muscle groups are involved in the unwinding of the torso. Oblique abs a big part of this for sure.

Back to some of the earlier debate. Iron Byron is not cognizant of or intending to swing his hands or shaft or clubhead “on plane.”. He does very well without any Geometry in his head.

And – the Physics of the Pivot does not imply the absence of Geometry. Forward spine angle and right side bend or tilt have a tremendous influence on the overall geometry of the golf swing, including shaft plane and plane angle. Pivoting correctly requires the right amount of right spine tilt during Transition and downswing and staying level with your original Setup spine angle. Setup takes care of the rest of the geometry automatically.

It is the human mind – conscious mind mostly – that “requires” a sense of control in the visual channel in terms of aiming or steering or manipulating during the downswing. A stage of learning that we all must go through to some extent. The body that sets up correctly and pivots correctly is free to truly “freewheel” with no concern for plane or aiming on the downswing. (This does not pertain to backswing as I stated in my earlier post where you need to train the arms to move independently properly to arrive in an on plane Top of backswing.)

Loren
Aug 12 2009 08:55
Page 146

Here hear (anyone know which one is right?).

Hint: “Lend me your ears.”

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

macs
Aug 12 2009 14:30
Page 147

Lag
In a previous post that the most influential person on your swing was Moe Norman. Yet he was a swinger and you were hitting at that time, is it? But you also said that Moe looked very much like a hitter (meaning also his pivot) but his double Horizontal hinging was the key to being a swinger, correct?
I am asking this because your pivot looks more like Moe IMO.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

lagpressure
Aug 12 2009 17:35
Page 147

Moe taught me a lot..

More than anything Moe taught me attitude toward striking the ball.
Rapid firing shots.. lining up 10 balls in a row, then striking one after another without stopping.

Moe got me out of thinking over the shot.

Automatic, auto pilot, golf is easy.

taking everything to PV5.. finish..

turning on a right leg post.

Moe made me understand the 4:30 line better than anyone.

The importance of post impact pivot thrust.

heavy clubs

minimal hand travel

wide stance

flat shoulders

Spine tilt

proper trajectory

bacon strip divots.

The stories about George too…

Moe has been a huge influence upon me..
it’s all over my swing as far as intentions and actually a lot of
mechanics also.

I could go on and on..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Styles
Aug 12 2009 21:45
Page 147

In the Golf School section of this site, Chuck talks about Moe being a hitter.

Thoughts?

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

TheDart
Aug 12 2009 21:52
Page 147

I did not know Lag loading ‘till Moe and Prof. Jack Kuykendall.

The rest was easy.

But there are three kinds of Lag Loading. Unless you know them all, things can seem complicated. They ain’t. Neither are plane angle variations. Just gotta be on plane and loaded thru thru thru the ball.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Styles
Aug 12 2009 22:04
Page 147

Good to see you back BP!

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

AddingtonArnie
Aug 12 2009 22:05
Page 147

Okay – Lag, I will try calling you soon to catch up.

My two cents on arm motion, since this is the heart of the Balance Point swing model.The amount of upward independent upper arm motion (upper arms moving themselves with muscle-power) in a truly simple – fewest required moving body parts – and effective golf swing during the backswing phase is very little. About three to eight inches for most folks, measured in hand travel, a bit more for tall and flexible golfers. At least as much or more is the amount of hand travel in the width dimension, again – independent arm motion. About six to ten inches all of it accomplished by end of takeaway. This is pushing the hands away from the chest from the upper arm/shoulder joint

Hi BP – good to hear from you again. Just wondered how the book was going? Sounds like it would be an interesting read.

Cheers,

Arnie

Beezneeds
Aug 13 2009 06:50
Page 147

The term ‘Manipulated Hand Swinger’ might need to be chucked in here too…...Moe is inactive hands and all pivot right?

BPGS1
Aug 13 2009 11:32
Page 147

Thanks, guys. Books are going well, about 95% done with the final draft, soon the editing begins. Same with our dvd’s – two more days of taping, then a ton of editing time this Fall.

Speaking of George Knudson, he talks in his book about the Pivot driven swing and how you can let Forces such as Momentum control the club, especially on the downswing. No need to manipulate.

lagpressure
Aug 13 2009 14:24
Page 147

When I saw Moe for the first time I had never seen anything like it…
I was a rookie in 1987 getting my Q Card in Toronto, and this old guy is on the range with a crowd around him just putting on the most amazing ball striking exhibition I had ever seen.. calling every shot, hitting the range signs in the distance often twice in a row, some from over 200 yards. It was just unearthly stuff.

Moe would pretty much follow the tour around, on occasion he would play an event… but mostly he would make his living from what ever was put in the hat for him.

It looked like a hit to me.. until later in the season when we got out west and I had spent a lot of time with him, he let me film him which was pretty rare.. he at that time was very camera shy and felt a bit paranoid that someone was out to exploit him for their own gain.

Later that year at the Alberta Open I asked if I could film him.. I suppose I had gained a bit of his trust over the season, as I would go out of my way to spend time with him… he loved to talk, and certainly liked an audience, but most of the guys ignored him and just wrote him off as some kind of freak almost like a circus or carnival sideshow type of guy. He wasn’t famous like he is now..
he was in Canada but few had heard of him down in the States unless they had played up in Canada. I don’t think it was until 1995 that Golf Digest did a cover story on him.. so this was 8 years before that.. I can tell you.. the footage I have of Moe is the best I have ever seen.. because I shot it at 10,000 shutter frames, and he was compressing the ball much better in 87 than 95..

I can’t tell you how excited I was driving back to my hotel room and hooking up my camera to the TV there and watching Moe in slowMO
all night.. I just couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

Moe swung on a true shoulder plane, yet very flat.. and he had the shaft fully inline from both front and DTL at impact. This screamed swinging… because CF wants to put things inline. I have no doubt that Moe’s swing evolved from massive ball beating and he just over time felt the CF pull, and just let it go into an inline situation. This would not evolve from any kind of manipulation. If the hands are passive, dead hinges, this is exactly where things want to go..

The second proof is in the hinge action..

The arms fly off the body just as Doyle and McHatton would love.
They fly off because the club is coming very much down the 4:30 line and from very inside, then just straight out off the body inline.

The wrist just hinge over into an extreme full roll about two feet after impact. They flip over so fast… this could only happen from a passive hand protocol. Any “HIT” in the hands would put too much tension in the wrist for the roll to happen that quickly..

I was so surprised to see that horizontal extreme flip over of the clubface. This is not the stiff wristed crush of a hitter. Dead hand swinger all the way…

I would agree with anyone that it looks like a hit from the naked eye.. but based upon the high speed stuff.. there is not much to argue.

PURE CF SWINGER!!!

But because Moe is not starting from an elbow plane, or hands plane, there is minimal plane shifting, and with impact coming into a turned shoulder plane, he avoids the dreaded post impact parallel off plane equal angular spiral that I think is a highly questionable procedure.

Swingers would be wise to swing like MOE!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Whitednj
Aug 13 2009 18:20
Page 147

Lag, a picture tells a 1,00 words … can you cut a few frames of Moe and put them in your description?

iseekgolfguru
Aug 13 2009 19:12
Page 147

Dr Mumford of Clear Keys fame was a friend to Moe. There are a few threads in the archives worth digging up and reading.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 14 2009 09:12
Page 147

The wrist just hinge over into an extreme full roll about two feet after impact. They flip over so fast… this could only happen from a passive hand protocol. Any ’ÄúHIT” in the hands would put too much tension in the wrist for the roll to happen that quickly..

I was so surprised to see that horizontal extreme flip over of the clubface. This is not the stiff wristed crush of a hitter. Dead hand swinger all the way…

Do you think that Moe’s clubface was more open than average during release and that the extreme roll was a result, or would it always result from perfectly dead hands?

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

lagpressure
Aug 14 2009 10:19
Page 147

I will speak from experience here, with direct and personal knowledge.

If I allow my upper arms and wrists to fully relax as I swing a golf club..
my hands will naturally roll over post impact quickly. The arms come off the body, and the right arm is PULLED straight in a passive way, not in anyway driven.

The hands are passive like hinges.. I believe Homer describes this as “The Law of the Flail”

Would welcome any brainiacs to jump in on their take of “Law of the Flail”

As soon as I add any “Hit” into the hands… this is a manipulation and starts to counter or interfere with what CF wants to do. An angled hinge or a vertical hinge is a manipulation, conscious and deliberate.

The intentions are different.. the feel of the entire process if different and not so amazingly the visual results are very different.

It’s for this reason that I don’t like using the right arm as the main reference for hit or swing debates, because they can both look exactly the same. The right arm driving can be active, or it can be pulled passively by CF… same look.. If a player is wearing a sweater, then you can’t see if the veins are popping out of the forearms either.

At hit with the hands weds nicely with a frozen right arm..likewise a passive swing embraces all those relax the joints, arms hands, loose, oily, just like you would want from a hinge..

One could argue that the hitter simply has motorized hinges… and the swinger passive ones.. I think that would be correct.

So I am talking about hitting from a loaded up P3.. not throwing the hands at the ball from the top of the backswing.. This the more advanced approach, TGM would call a snap release. Not a big slow sweep delivery, which of course would be a manipulation too, because if the hands are truly passive,
they won’t release until the left arm and shaft are about 90 degrees, when angular momentum, inertia, all take over in a very automatic non manipulated way.

Automatic release

Non Automatic release

Homer talks about a deliberate whiplash snap release (non automatic) in 10-24 D

Likewise the automatic version he uses the word “unhampered”
10-24-D for the let it go “throw out action” which is of course the un manipulated version.

If you are trying to angle hinge with a snap release you are absolutely manipulating the golf club.. with both the hands and the arms.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

iseekgolfguru
Aug 14 2009 10:35
Page 147

Hands do not ever “hit”, its the arms that pull or push the Flying Wedge assembled. Hands hitting means that the hands break their FLW/BWR alignments and we all know thats a bad thing.

Hitters do not manipulate the clubface with their natural action being an Angled Hinge. And a hitter can use a Snap Release via how the right elbow is positioned and held bend for longer before it straightens.

“unhampered” refers to a snap that is not manipulated. If you wish to force a snap release in an attempt to hang onto the release point a little longer then its a manipulation only of the point at which you are going to release it. The clubface actions from there will be the same.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 14 2009 10:48
Page 147

I was only wondering if the “Over-roll” is a normal outcome of perfectly dead hands. Or, did he purposely/consciously design his swing so that they would.

It seems like it might be the outcome of perfectly dead hands. I’m not sure, so I asked.

I’ve seen only a few great ball strikers in person. Just a few. And the Swingers seem to Over-roll.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 14 2009 11:11
Page 147

A Horizontal Hinge has a Full Roll feel for a swinger.
Angled Hinge a No Roll feel.
Vertical Hinge a Reverse Roll feel.

Over roll is what a few of us term a ‘Whoreizontal Hinge’ for a snap hook.

As long as nothing interferes with the CF throw out action a HH is natural. However most golfers have no clue and so Steer and Quit and Bob and Sway in all combinations.

What you may term “over-roll” as a look is what should happen if allowed. (not a WH but a sweet HH).

Past Both Arms Straight few have worked out the Finish Swivel which is a hinderance to a pure CF action too.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 14 2009 11:42
Page 147

A Horizontal Hinge has a Full Roll feel for a swinger.
Angled Hinge a No Roll feel.
Vertical Hinge a Reverse Roll feel.

Over roll is what a few of us term a ‘Whoreizontal Hinge' for a snap hook.

As long as nothing interferes with the CF throw out action a HH is natural. However most golfers have no clue and so Steer and Quit and Bob and Sway in all combinations.

What you may term ’Äúover-roll” as a look is what should happen if allowed. (not a WH but a sweet HH).

Past Both Arms Straight few have worked out the Finish Swivel which is a hinderance to a pure CF action too.

I’m not trying to hijack the thread so pardon me for giving this a last try.

I understand HH Alignments. But Moe does Roll more. I only called it an Over-roll because it rolls beyond the textbook HH. I’m only curious.

Guru, I’ve seen what your describing. Good description. But, when it comes to Moe, nothing seems left to chance. Everything seems to be just the way he wants it to be. Like Hogan. If it’s there, then there’s a reason.

So, it’s naturally occurring with good CF and Dead Hands? Ok. Thanks.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 14 2009 21:38
Page 147

His Clubface seems to go from before impact onplane to after impact onplane. Maybe it’s just his swivel.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

Whitednj
Aug 14 2009 21:44
Page 147

Lag, had a look at a Moe here … http://moenormangolfacademy.... One of the videos he did in front of a crowd. Simple as. Strong grip. Straight arms. No backswing. BIG follow through. “No divot”. Repeatable. 300y drives. Audience applauds.
Looks like a 70yo with restricted movements but still smashes it straight and long.

It looks so easy.

What would Moe say about all the stuff you guys talk about in a thread like question-for-dart-guru? He talks about the KISS principle. Nothing about pressure points or 4.30 and other stuff.

How does his swing/attitude sit with TGM?

Weetbix
Aug 14 2009 23:05
Page 147

Whitednj, that is a great question.

BTW, Moe is great to listen to, don’t you think?

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

Flatleftwrist
Aug 15 2009 08:20
Page 147

Strong grip. Straight arms. No backswing. BIG follow through. ’ÄúNo divot”. Repeatable. 300y drives. Audience applauds.
Looks like a 70yo with restricted movements but still smashes it straight and long.

It looks so easy.

What would Moe say about all the stuff you guys talk about in a thread like question-for-dart-guru? He talks about the KISS principle. Nothing about pressure points or 4.30 and other stuff.

How does his swing/attitude sit with TGM?

If I could swing like Moe and have the Ball go wherever I want, then I would quit my job and play Golf everyday.

If it’s so simple, then why hasn’t anyone been able to repeat his success?

Anyway, this is Lags forum. Sorry to get off subject.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 15 2009 11:42
Page 147

Moe hit it with Lag FLW and On Plane. Perfect for him.

TheDart
Aug 15 2009 15:53
Page 147

Lag, had a look at a Moe here … http://moenormangolfacademy…. One of the videos he did in front of a crowd. Simple as. Strong grip. Straight arms. No backswing. BIG follow through. ’ÄúNo divot”. Repeatable. 300y drives. Audience applauds.
Looks like a 70yo with restricted movements but still smashes it straight and long.

It looks so easy.

What would Moe say about all the stuff you guys talk about in a thread like question-for-dart-guru? He talks about the KISS principle. Nothing about pressure points or 4.30 and other stuff.

How does his swing/attitude sit with TGM?

W,

Since I found Moe I was convinced that Homer used him as a source for his work. They were similar in geography and vintage. Homer could not help but notice his technique. I can see it in 12-1-0. Drive Loading Basic Pattern (Hitting).

This was one of the safe short cuts Homer mentioned. Just in case you might become a little confused. It saved my golfing life.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Whitednj
Aug 15 2009 16:43
Page 147

Dart, I am not trying to denigrate all the great stuff you guys write in this forum. I have not read Homer so codes glaze my eyes. But when you take a close look at Moe and see the simplicity in his swing (there is NO backswing but yes Guru, lotsa on plane and FLW) I’ve gtotta wonder if I’m taking the wrong tack with my swing.

Moe’s swing is so simple to my eye, if he was still alive, he should be able to describe how to do it in a foolscap page, not a 200 page book. But of course the world’s most simple products are usually the most complex to design!

As you can tell, I’m blown away by what I see with Moe and astounded that no other high profile golfer has taken up his swing pattern.

I would love to see the gurus describe what he does against a few freeze frames to reveal to the plebeians like me why he is so effective. And compare this to a silky swing like Adam Scott.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 15 2009 16:48
Page 147

He has a great long backswing.

If you search the history in here, I am pretty sure its been done before.

TheDart
Aug 15 2009 20:55
Page 148

Dart, I am not trying to denigrate all the great stuff you guys write in this forum. I have not read Homer so codes glaze my eyes. But when you take a close look at Moe and see the simplicity in his swing (there is NO backswing but yes Guru, lotsa on plane and FLW) I've gtotta wonder if I'm taking the wrong tack with my swing.

Moe's swing is so simple to my eye, if he was still alive, he should be able to describe how to do it in a foolscap page, not a 200 page book. But of course the world's most simple products are usually the most complex to design!

As you can tell, I'm blown away by what I see with Moe and astounded that no other high profile golfer has taken up his swing pattern.

I would love to see the gurus describe what he does against a few freeze frames to reveal to the plebeians like me why he is so effective. And compare this to a silky swing like Adam Scott.

W,

Moe could and did describe in a few sentences what he did and each sentence had different words to describe the same action. Homer described everyone’s swing and possible swing so as they could see what they were doing and how to make it better.

Moe was not a world class golfer. He did not have the credentials and was slaughtered by guys who did. The class players see Moe’s swing as a “pop gun” shot, Lee Trevino. It would take an Atlas to compete with Moe’s swing and personality profile

I think swingers hug there ribs harder and hitters can hit down across the line – steering to some degree. Moe showed a bent left wrist into the finish like Nelson. This only means that they were entertaining the idea of keeping the club face square as long as possible. However their great loading and storage meant they could hit the ball straight as string with a less than ideal concept and sacrifice some power.

Snap Loading can be achieved with Drive Loading, not with the wrists and hands but by delaying the Elbow Throw.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Loren
Aug 17 2009 04:48
Page 148

I was only wondering if the ’ÄúOver-roll” is a normal outcome of perfectly dead hands. Or, did he purposely/consciously design his swing so that they would.

It seems like it might be the outcome of perfectly dead hands. I'm not sure, so I asked.

I've seen only a few great ball strikers in person. Just a few. And the Swingers seem to Over-roll.

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

When the clubhead passes the hands the left forearm needs to swivel. It’s not a hands roll. It’s perfectly natural. The left wrist remains flat, the right still slightly bent. The finish swivel is “insurance” and applies to both hitters and swingers.

In TGM the only rolling done is to the point of vertical wrists through impact. Hinge action takes over at that point.
The rolling to vertical is controlled by the impact fix amount of right wrist bend, the on-plane right forearm and extensor action.
The hitter manages the roll more through the hands. The swinger uses the wrists which are loaded at the top through the drag loading.
The hitter loads the right elbow through drive loading against the motion of the backstroke.
Different pressure locations on PP#3 (right index finger, proximal phalanx) relative to the shaft, top or aft.

The natural hinge action of a swinger is Horizontal. For a hitter it’s Angle due to the nature of the thrust applied. Either can consciously change that through manipulation, but it’s only a “feel” that results in an alignment, not an action or motion, other than Vertical hinging which requires a left forearm reverse roll through impact to follow-through. Even Vertical Hinging requires a finish swivel if the clubhead passes the hands.

The hands are strong educated clamps, only.
The right arm is not passive for swingers either. Extensor action has it always trying to straighten. It’s a non-accerating force.
The only thing that is “dead” is the inert left arm, hitter or swinger.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

TheDart
Aug 17 2009 21:50
Page 148

Of course I meant to say Snap Release and Right Arm Throw as Loren so correctly pointed out. Thanks Loren.

For some reason I can edit out the mistake. Or even erase the whole post.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

lagpressure
Aug 19 2009 16:14
Page 148

I’ll save the thousand words…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 19 2009 16:45
Page 148

Textbook full roll or horizontal hinging.

Shot with my camera in 1987 at 10K shutter speed.

Couldn’t get a good video capture direct, so I just shot the screen with my regular camera yesterday. It’s clear enough though.

To get the closing rate that quick post impact, the hands have to be working as passive hinges not motors. This is swinger stuff all the way.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 19 2009 16:49
Page 148

These photos have never been seen before today.

enjoy..

I won’t clog up this site with them, but I’ll post a series of stills over on my site soon for those interested.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 19 2009 17:03
Page 148

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Aug 19 2009 17:04
Page 148

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Prot
Aug 20 2009 00:13
Page 148

consistency comes to mind.

The second full picture in his downswing… the positioning is almost identical to my avatar. There are several years between those pictures. Amazing really…. now that’s a ‘grooved’ swing.

I often wonder how far ‘down’ the line I should swing after hitting my invisible impact bag. To me, I still seem to gain better results by having the swing continue outward after the ball for longer… it seems to prevent a hook a little better. Does hitting or swinging dictate this? Or is it different for everyone. I’ve heard swingers ‘throw’ down the line a lot longer.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

BPGS1
Aug 20 2009 06:39
Page 148

Lag – I am 100% in agreement with you, Moe was a Swinger by yours and my own definition as well, ie passive wrist cock angle release. The pics are great and conclusive proof. Soft forearms that roll over from the outward CF pull and from Momentum transfer as the clubhead seeks to turn over so it’s center of gravity falls in line with the shaft. Leadbetter also has said Moe was a body pivot dominant, passive hands striker. He does have “the look” of a Hitter though, due mainly to his short backswing Pivot and short Finish, which most classic Hitters share. His Pivot Thrust is the type I call a Continuous Acceleration, ie it begins very early in the downswing and has no sudden burst of speed, exactly how most LPGA pros do it.

My question to Lag is – does he thrust with the right triceps as well? Hard to tell from a purely visual analysis of the impact pics. Very difficult procedure to do consistently well, even for a tour pro, as the impulse to add some Wrist Hit (active muscle-powered release of the wrist cock angles) tends to leak into the right triceps Hammer Hit.

Flatleftwrist
Aug 20 2009 07:26
Page 148

Lag,

Classic Pictures. Beautiful Alignments.

Thank you for sharing

The Secret to Golf is producing a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 20 2009 10:18
Page 148

Thrusting triceps and swinging are incompatible and Moe would never have been able to be as accurate as he was mixing those sources up.

Swingers pivots are instant acceleration to spin the CF flywheel. Hitters have a more constant acceleration.

Moe’s pattern has always raised heaps of questions. Looks a hitter but has swingers components when you consider pressure points and power accumulators used.

The hinge action in the shot above is an Angled Hinge…45 degrees ish to the target line at Both Arms Straight – thats a Hitters natural slot, or a swingers manipulated no roll feel action.

A HH would have rolled further by then and have the toe pointed down the fairway parallel to the target line.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 20 2009 12:09
Page 148

Moes Clinic

griffo59
Aug 20 2009 15:43
Page 148

Just got finished reading all 148 pages of this forum! what great stuff! I feel like i’ve learnt more this week than i have in 19 years of playing golf :-)
Just wanted to sign in and say hello to you all!

It takes a while to pick up the lingo from the little yellow book but as i seem to be making more and more sense of it i’ll try and get stuck into some of the debates

griffo

lagpressure
Aug 20 2009 17:17
Page 148

Anyone reading all 148 pages of this should qualify for something..
Golf Fanatics Anonymous?

Nice to have you here Griffo!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

griffo59
Aug 20 2009 17:39
Page 148

ha ha! i skip read a lot and i’ve been at it for a couple of weeks. it’s had quite an impact on my thinking and direction for the future.
i’ve working at it on the range pretty hard and hitting seems to be the direction i want to take to make me a more consistent striker of the ball from day to day.
as it’s what i do for a living, having more control of my ball flight could only ever be a great thing!

iseekgolfguru
Aug 20 2009 17:50
Page 148

Welcome to the funny farm griffo.

Right arm thrust is different to what most pro’s use only because they have probably not found a teacher who knows the difference.

lagpressure
Aug 20 2009 18:05
Page 148

I took a look at the Moe clinic, but I will say this, it’s not the same swing at age 70 it was at 57.

On this photo, it is important to know that I was positioned quite a bit out in front of Moe.. and 10 inches further toward P4 his clubface rolls even more over..

If I were taking this pic from right in front of him at ball placement, this clubface here would appear much more shut than it appears here..

When I shot Moe at 10K shutter speed, it showed the difference between what he is feeling and what he is doing..

I’ll try to pull another frame from a different swing soon to show..
I have about 100 swings on my tape.

However, I never disregard what a player says they are feeling because there are always reasons for it. Moe felt as if the release was a hold off because of his deep 4:30 line entry but he was also on a turned shoulder plane, and this is COMPLETELY different than what nearly all golfers do… so the hold off is quite understandable as a sensation when the clubface is rotating around a clubshaft pointed at the shoulders compared to the belt buckle.

Moe’s description of his golf swing feeling like a pendulum is based upon the minimal plane shifting not clubface rotation. His clubface post impact is not in sync with his shoulder rotation, which shows us that his hands are working as hinges not motors assuming he is using an on plane protocol (which he is) and not an equal angular spiral technique that is common place with most all elbow plane swingers.

Moe did it right… the ball doesn’t lie.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

griffo59
Aug 20 2009 22:56
Page 148

Hey Lag, would you mind if i shoot you an email? i’d really like to run a few things by you

griffo

macs
Aug 21 2009 02:59
Page 148

I'll save the thousand words…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Moe’s Sermon:
“Golf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy’s pastime, yet it builds men. It cleans up the mind and rejuvenates the body. Its these things and many more; for those of us who know it and love it”

Lag
Are you testifying to Moe’s resurrection and pronounce a new religion. Count me in; Amen.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

macs
Aug 21 2009 03:06
Page 148

At 4:20 in this video the horizontal hinge is quite obvious.
http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=related

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

Loren
Aug 21 2009 05:24
Page 148

In ‘92 with Todd Graves, moenorman.org, 20 min. video, he says: “Right hand never crosses over the left.” (no roll)
“Fewest moving parts.”
“Passive hands, keep ‘em soft.”
“I actually think I’d hit the ball twice.”
“Toe of the club never crosses the heel. Toe of the club doesn’t even exist.” “Don’t want an active toe.” (no roll)
“Can never hit it left.” (Hooked it out of bounds once in 7 years.)

No finish swivel.
Takes it back shut, i.e. no roll. (Single action)

Swingers can AH at will for trajectory control with educated hands.
Hitters find HH awkward, fighting the physics, unreliable.
Hinge action does not define or identify lag loading (drag or drive).
Could be a strong indicator.
There’s no actual motion in hinge action.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

Styles
Aug 21 2009 07:53
Page 148

Loren, Bio is looking to get in touch with you

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Loren
Aug 21 2009 08:12
Page 148

Styles, cirri76162 AT mypacks.net
Thank you.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

lagpressure
Aug 21 2009 08:58
Page 148

griffo,

lagpressure@yahoo.com

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

macs
Aug 22 2009 04:31
Page 149

The Mad Heretic of Golf
http://www.cigaraficionado....

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

lagpressure
Aug 22 2009 15:29
Page 149

Thanks for posting that article. I read it and took a quick tour over to the company that is preaching Moe’s swing and charging $2000 for “Moe’s secret”

Moe may have had some secrets, but let me say this loud and clear.
If their top instructor has the clubshaft here post impact. The secret you are paying them for is not the one that is going to teach you how to flush the golf ball like Moe Norman.

The secret you will sadly learn is that THEY DON”T KNOW THE SECRET!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Loren
Aug 22 2009 16:35
Page 149

Hear, hear.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

stinkler
Aug 22 2009 16:48
Page 149

Mm, nice point Lag. Just looked at Hogan here and at the end you can see the same extension as Moe. Thanks for making me notice.

TheDart
Aug 22 2009 22:23
Page 149

Textbook full roll or horizontal hinging.

Shot with my camera in 1987 at 10K shutter speed.

Couldn't get a good video capture direct, so I just shot the screen with my regular camera yesterday. It's clear enough though.

To get the closing rate that quick post impact, the hands have to be working as passive hinges not motors. This is swinger stuff all the way.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

I did not see Moe in 1987 and I don’t care what he was doing then.

When I saw him about 2000 with Kuykendal he was Drive Loading.

Hinge Action does not define Loading according to Homer, Guru and me.

Clubhead Lag can be established in three ways: 1 by resisting the Backswing motion for Drive Loading. etc.
I leave it to everyone to view Guru’s clip of Moe to see for themselves if he is resisting the backswing motion or not.

Grip the club the way he is and see what choice you have. Stand the way he is and see what choice you have.

I think that exercise is highly valuable to 99% of golfers. The ones who can’t hit it and teachers who have not noticed.

.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Weetbix
Aug 23 2009 11:33
Page 149

Mm, nice point Lag. Just looked at Hogan here and at the end you can see the same extension as Moe. Thanks for making me notice.

Interesting about how both go through this position. I seem to remember a quote from Moe about keeping away from the left side. And Hogan of course was well known for his anti-hook action.

So Lag, what is it that keeps the wrists from re-cocking on the through swing in a swingers action where the hands and wrists are passive?

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

lagpressure
Aug 23 2009 13:38
Page 149
Hinge Action does not define Loading according to Homer, Guru and me.

You can put me in that category also.

However, hinge actions do have sensible and practical protocols for their application.

Homer is very clear in 12-1-0 that the drive loading protocol suggested for Hitters is an angled hinge. In Homer’s words… “This pattern is most useful for the strongest players.”

10-19-A Drive Loading:

“A hitter striving to accelerate a pre stressed shaft from a SLOW start down through impact.”

Moe did not have a slow start down. He was very quick at transition.
Quicker than anyone I can think of ever. Therefore, his transition is much better described as Homer would put it here:

10-19-C

“Drag loading is the swinger’s technique, an out and out pull from a QUICK START DOWN to release.”

Homer further says:

“The technique of a swinger is to accelerate the clubshaft lengthwise” (10-19-C) longitudinal.

A swinger’s clubshaft seeks an inline condition with the left arm.

The great thing about Moe is that he completely embraces this concept like no other. The inline condition of the shaft and left arm is exactly what swingers should be striving for. This is the beauty of
Moe’s turned shoulder swing plane.

Homer’s description of drive and drag loading in (7-19) are at best ambiguous. The fact that a change in direction exists means that new pressures are going to be applied and felt in the hands.

Homer says (7-19)

Clubhead lag can be established in three ways:

1. Drive Loading: Resisting the backstroke Motion
2. Float Loading: With the start down motion
3. Drag Loading: Throwing the club against a lag pressure point at transition.

These all sound like the same thing and it’s flat out confusing to TGM readers…often confused with backswing loading (sweep, random and snap)

A better description for drive and drag loading should be clarified to only concern itself with downswing shaft flex loading and not wrist cock loading..

Therefore Float loading should not be considered as a downstroke shaft loading description unless it is only to describe the presence of centripetal force that moves the shaft inward towards the body.

Both swingers and hitters will have some amount of centripetal movement. Swingers much more visually than hitters.

Float loading would much better be described as one of the wrist cock protocols for loading up the wrist cock accumulator. Float loading should only be described as adding additional wrist cock on the downswing, because obviously by changing direction any slack leftover in the wrists will load more or be taken up.. due to the centripetal forces that exist from any kind of change in direction. (Centripetal force is acceleration towards the center of a circle)
Float loading should be re-cataloged over to 10-22-D.

Drive loading for Hitters: A slow build of lag pressure on the downswing that increases both hand pressure and shaft flex all the way to impact and even better yet.. beyond.

Drag Loading for Swingers: A quick powerful load of lag pressure into the hands at transition, that is sustained until angular momentum creates a condition where the clubhead overtakes the hands therefore seeking an inline condition of shaft flex, the left arm and the clubshaft at the moment of impact. The “swinging” drag loader must always comply with “The Law of the Flail” and will always be the swinger’s primary concern.

So was Moe hitter or swinger?

Moe had a quick change in direction. Moe full rolled (horizontal) like swingers do. Moe moved into a perfect inline condition at impact.
Moe preached “passive hands” every chance he could. It was a pure pivot pull motivated by the torso turning strongly against a very rooted and stable lower body.

This is exactly what the “Moe Academy” is not understanding. There was no flip of the shaft because Moe had fantastic post impact pivot thrust thrust that did everything it could to avoid 2-K-3.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

iseekgolfguru
Aug 23 2009 14:08
Page 149

In the U tubes, Moe was Drive load hitting.

Hit or swing FLW/BRW through impact (avoiding 2-k-3 throwaway hand flip action) via in-line hinge and then finish swivel actions past BAS where Moe’s Hitters Option was to BLW/FRW. His shot was done at BAS.

lagpressure
Aug 23 2009 14:10
Page 149
So Lag, what is it that keeps the wrists from re-cocking on the through swing in a swingers action where the hands and wrists are passive?

Same as a hitter’s… post impact pivot thrust. But most golfers continue to believe that the golf swing is over at impact because logic would lead us to believe that since the ball is gone, the swing is over.

However,

If logic is correct, then the most logical thinkers would be the best golfers. Based upon my experience, the most logical thinkers I know tend to be the worst golfers.

Why is this?

Golfers who tend to focus on logical thinking, usually spend a lot of time studying photos, and tend to get very concerned about positions.
They logically think that these positions can be attained through simply “just getting there” and might even spend a lot of time practicing a stagnant position isometrically.

This works great for address, the backswing and maybe the top.

Problem #1.

The golf ball is not struck on the backswing.

Then the logical thinker looks at photos of great players at impact or just before impact, they try to put themselves in these positions by shear effort.

Problem #2.

Forcing these positions creates pivot stall, which causes the clubshaft to flip, losing lag pressure. Even if they can get into these positions, it’s going to be massive compression leakage.

Then because it would make no sense to look for the answer somewhere within the torso, they spend years looking at their arms, hands, the shaft, the clubface until they finally give up, and go buy a set of cavity back irons and a 450 CC driver to save them from golfing doom.

The cycle goes on and on… from one golfer to another, from one generation to another.. and few ever get it, although they could if they looked in the right place.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

iseekgolfguru
Aug 23 2009 14:20
Page 149

This is why Homer was so concerned about learning a good Finish Swivel past BAS. He knew that hitting at the ball was not productive to a good strike, took Impact out of the equation all together as a station. Radical thinking at the time.

His flail and an active training of Zones 1 2 and 3 were all about ridding any need for throw away and getting the Flying Wedges, whether swung or pushed, all the way through the on plane Finish Swivel as fast as possible. No stalled pivot action would allow that to happen.

To learn a Finish Swivel means mastering the re-cocking of the left wrist.

Whitednj
Aug 23 2009 18:54
Page 149

I just got a copy of a 1st edition (London Oct 1957) of Ben Hogan’s The Modern Fundamentals of Golf. Doing “a bit of a Lag” I’ve started at the back to see what he says about impact. Very simple and logical stuff. I will probably never get what Moe is doing. But I reckon a bit of advice from Mr Hogan may give me an edge.

rt1
Aug 25 2009 00:03
Page 149

Lag,

Well put. most players do not realize the pelvic thrust and lean of the hips on the forward swing are necessary to maintain leverage that is needed to keep the proper wrist angles at impact and to allow the wrist to recock post impact. If one looks for the solution in the hands or arms, they will continue to stall the pivot as the hands are flipped at the ball and the rate of face angle closer is all guess work. The angle of accent is greatly overlooked by most players. Referring to the recock of wrist angles post impact due to proper impact position.

TheDart
Aug 25 2009 09:36
Page 149

Talking about Lag Loading,

Homer chose to separate shaft Loading – Accumulator Loading and Pivot Loading so as everyone could think about their swing more clearly, but every G.O.L.Fer is welcome to rewrite the book to their own satisfaction and understanding.

A most useful Float Loading is that of Accumulator #3 (Hand Motion or Action). The one good players never talk about (Hogan being a hugh exception) and bad ones can’t imagine.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Loren
Aug 28 2009 04:26
Page 149

Would that be right elbow location?

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

marion_cobretti
Aug 28 2009 14:58
Page 149

Lag, or other suitably qualified teachers, could you please take a look at my driver swing.

some stats (if they matter): ss: 125 measured by BIO’s screening (tho i think 115 would be closer to the mark), handicap 7, stroke average: 80.

I think i do pretty well to play to a 7 as my swing has some glaring flaws, but if u could pinpoint some obvious areas for improvement and corrective drills or feels that would be terrific. would also be interested to know which patterns and protocols I fall under in TGM terms.

Cheers.

edit. oh this seems to work, here it is:

Loren
Aug 28 2009 16:41
Page 149

Welcome, Marion.

That should go into a new thread for wider exposure.

Anyone else experience a Windows system crash watching that?
Prob’ly just me, and unrelated.

Meanwhile, one factor at a time, starting anyplace, preferably with the feet, advisedly with an Authorized Instructor. There are no quick tips, fix it drills. One factor at a time.
Twenty-four components in the stroke, “a feel system without an engineering system is a lop-sided lottery, and a feel system is indispensable in such a complex action as we have in the golf stroke.” Homer Kelley

“Let mechanics produce and Feel reproduce.”

Learn body, arms and hands, in that order, but you can work on, say, three factors, one in each of those areas at once.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

Loren
Aug 28 2009 16:51
Page 149

Accumulator #3 is the angle established between the clubshaft and left arm, in the grip at impact fix, totally independent of wrist cock.

It should never be out of line, in its radial alignment with the left arm and a left wrist perpendicular to its associated plane for the selected hinge action. (See the Taly golf school articles)

You can reduce or increase the roll travel by raising or lowering the hands, small pulley versus big pulley, with an effect on clubhead speed in reverse proportion to the size of the pulley (the smaller, the faster, raised hands plus trigger delay).

Lowered hands requires a higher handspeed and an early trigger.
Normally, only swingers actually rotate the left wrist into its vertical position for impact, with their Standard wrist action, and benefit from maximum trigger delay and maximum radius. Turn/cock, roll/uncock.

Hitters use single wrist action because they use a cocked right elbow and angle hinging, which is identical to the paddle-wheel motion of the straightening right arm but is a superior procedure that greatly simplifies hitting. No actual hand movement. Wrist cock only. Clubhead fix alignment undisturbed.

Accum #3 Hand Motion is clubface control, Rhythm control (hinge action clubhead travel), roll power control, and true clubhead overtaking control of the right elbow.

According to TGM.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

macs
Aug 28 2009 17:39
Page 149

Loren
1. Is lower/upper hand the amount of elbow bend?

2. If it is all about the left arm why is the PP on the right index finger. And because both hands turn/roll can there be a corresponding PP on the left hand as well?

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……"

iseekgolfguru
Aug 28 2009 20:05
Page 149

2) there are Pressure Points on both hands. 1 and 3 are on the right hand and #2 on the left.

1) From my reading its high or low hand angle at set up.

Loren
Aug 29 2009 03:39
Page 149

Thanks for the question, Macs.

The inert left arm does nothing. It is mildly stretched taut with Extensor action pressure on the #1 or #3 pressure point (to include the shaft, but increasing chance of throwaway) “lending indispensable control to all strokes.”

The straightening right elbow is roll power and control.
Roll power and impact swivel are two different things.

Try it without a club.
Set up the flying wedges by grabbing the left thumb with the right palm and just bend and straighten the right elbow in its normal right forearm takeaway “fanning” motion, up/back/in, down/out/through. It will roll the left wrist even with the “no roll” feel of angle hinging.

While we’re here, note that the bending right elbow will raise or lower the left arm and cock or uncock the left wrist, without cocking the right or changing its bend. (Assuming the recommended strong, single-action grip.) Practice that until you see that it does. For a swinger CF alone uncocks the left wrist. Hitters manually do it with the drive out action of the straightening right elbow.

The recommended plane angle is the turned shoulder plane with zero shift, but the initial takeaway has to start on the shaft plane.
How far away you stand is a factor in that angle relative to the body, and the height of the hands. See Moe Norman.

A plane shift to a lower plane lowers the hands increasing the accum #3 angle (residual wrist cock). However that increases the travel distance which results in a lower speed, requiring faster hands and an early release trigger.

The “on plane” right forearm always establishes and maintains the correct clubshaft-left arm angle through release and impact. It’s part of The Magic of the Right Forearm. The lowest plane angle that will allow the right forearm to be on plane is the elbow plane. The right forearm can’t get on plane until the elbow does. (pot pourri)

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

lagpressure
Aug 29 2009 15:49
Page 149

Marion,

Glad to have you here..

lot’s of good stuff going on in that golf swing…!
I’m sure you can bomb the ball a long way…

However,

velocity alone is not the benchmark for mastering this game.

The key is to learn to accelerate the clubhead through the impact arena.

Acceleration is what will put feel into your hands. Over accelerate and you will lose feel in a very negative way…

Tell us more about your golf game.. how is your iron game? Wedges?

How far do you hit a wedge? A 7 iron? a 4 iron? Driver?

When you miss greens.. where do you miss them? Is there a pattern? Is there no pattern? Can you feel a bad shot before you hit it?

How did you put your golf swing together so far?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

marion_cobretti
Aug 29 2009 18:39
Page 149

G’day lag

My iron game i would say is about average for my handicap, just based on people i play against at my club, but above average distance. My play with short irons is quite dependable, around the greens i get up and down from good lies quite often, average about 32 putts a round.

In summer my full swing distances are 120 yds SW, 175 yards 7 iron, 215 yards 4 iron, add about 5 yards for a clean strike off a tee. Driver flies 275 yards on a climbing hit and comes down vertical. If i flatten it off (just bought a 8.5* driver) it flies 275-280 and rolls past 300 yards.

I’ve just swingweighted my titleist 962 dci’s to about d5 with 2 strips of lead tape along the s300 shafts

I keep stats and I miss greens equally in both directions. If i miss right it is a tiny fade. If i miss left is is draw/hook. I may lose 2-4 penalty strokes a round OOB left off the tee.

I dont hit my long irons as high as i would like and if you pause my swing i think my hands may get too far ahead of the ball.

I can feel a bad shot coming down into impact and probably is bad sequencing when my upper body goes first and im OTT. I hit the ball thin more often than I hit it fat.

The screening showed just what i feel my swing is, and that is an upper body throw. My hip speed is low, torso speed is low and my shoulder speed is about twice mormal speed. It figures because i suppose we play to our strengths, mine has always been throwing things: javelin, cricket ball etc. used to do those better than most.

I feel i just play on coordination alone and not a grooved dependable pattern.

what TGM patterns does my swing exhibit?

iseekgolfguru
Aug 29 2009 20:10
Page 149

Javelin can be a sling or a throw. Which do you feel yourself in motoring a javelin?

marion_cobretti
Aug 29 2009 20:15
Page 149

definitely feels like a throw, upper body powered, not a whole body sling or whip type action. at least that’s how it feels.

iseekgolfguru
Aug 29 2009 21:46
Page 149

If that the case hitting would be worth looking at vs a CF swingers action. Right now you are swinging in TGMese. Drag loading on a rapidly spinning pivot. Your right side is almost passive yet your throwing tendency is right now only a supporting role. You can use either but not together.