I’ll be home tomorrow, quite a journey of golf, family, and introspection.

I have some interesting vids taken from the Vegas event, I’ll get them up in the next few days.

We’ll be starting plans for the next one. It was incredibly interesting, and a big wake up call for a lot of players to find out that they are going to have to have a better golf swing to hit classic clubs.

You will become a better golfer by improving your technique first.
Loft and Lie angles are also very important. Proper golf is a game of accuracy, both in direction and distance control. Curving the ball is also very important to open up your appoach angles into both fairways and greens. The modern ball in not helping this. The modern course designers are eliminating the ground game.

I think the ground game is very interesting, and takes great skill, and is also very steeped in tradition. Sometimes change is good,sometimes not.

I’m sure I’ll be babbling about the event for another month! Not because of my play down there, but I just felt it was fascinating and could be the beginning or possibly a re birthing of golfing conciousness. We’ll see. I certainly enjoyed playing the game on a level playing field, without being forced into equipment that gives the false perception of improvement.

Robbo,

I re-read some of your posts related to hitting before I left for the course this morning and only had a chance to hit about 5 balls before playing. The result was 13 of 14 fairways hit and 17 of 18 greens. Although I missed several good opportunities on the front side, my birdie drought ended with 4 in the last 9 holes.

Great to hear you are having success in the hitting area, I couldn’t agree more with what you are saying, feeling and experiencing.

Congrats, that’s what we all want, those day when we are “on”, and we can start taking control of the golf course rather than the other way around.

Please share with us the differences and feelings, sensations within the body. What did it feel like? What felt different?

Have any of you looked at the Brian Manzella Golf Show episodes on youtube? I wanted to get a better understanding of what some of you more learned folk here by searching for “Golf Machine” on youtube and his videos came up.
Very entertaining fellow and taught by Ben Doyle (yeah I know you don’t really like his style Lag :) , but he doesn’t push swinging over hitting.)
One of his videos that really caught my attention was the Lag the sweetspot video.
I have hit over 1,000 balls using this drill and I nail it every time! Feels great to me(190-200m 4 Iron), BUT as soon as I put my right thumb back on the grip, I lose the lag(thin hits). It’s really pissing me off because I can’t just leave my thumb off the grip all the time.
I notice that when the thumb is off, that I seem to push the left hand against the right and the pressure point in the right index finger( I think it’s called #3) is very aware.
When the thumb is on the grip again, that pressure is lost and the right thumb( instead of my left hand) is now pressing against my right index finger.
I’ve even hits 100 balls alternating thumb on then off, but still can’t reproduce that awesome feel.
HELP!!!

Yes. Good guy, Manzella. Have to put up with his New Orleans accent, and little idiosyncracies. Heh! And adjust the volume control when he’s talkin’. There are other good TGM folks on YouTube also. Look up Martin Hall. Very entertaining. And some others.
The Dart’s got a free introductory video on crokergolf that’s definitely worth a look. He illustrates laying off the shaft at startdown.

Sure you can play with the right thumb off the grip. I do.
Right thumb just touches the tip of the right index finger. No problem.
Ballard taught me that in his book in ‘86. He was the pro’s pro in the ‘80s.
Left arm is inert, by the way, so it’s hard to push against the right with the left hand. Hands are just “educated clamps”. The lag is loaded by the pivot.

Golfer66: have you tired holding the right hand grip looser than the top hand grip to sense the lag being set up in the transition? The only real job the right thumb can help with is extensor action.

Golfer66: have you tired holding the right hand grip looser than the top hand grip to sense the lag being set up in the transition? The only real job the right thumb can help with is extensor action.

Guru

I have done and do this especially because I can feel the loading at transition. I also feel the lag on the downswing and up to impact. The problem is that as soon as the thumb is on the grip all of that feeling is gone.

Loren

I’m not sure about the left arm being inert because when the right thumb is off the grip the only way for me to feel the club is the pressure between the left heel pad and the right index finger. The “inertness” for me is the loss of that pressure or sensation when the right thumb is back on the grip. It feels very much like the right thumb is replacing that feeling by an equal and opposite pressure to the right index finger which removes any feeling of the left hand. This is when the trouble starts!

Golf School Article “Keep the Left Arm Straight” describing extensor action? Feel it in the right palm base of the lifeline instead?

Lag can be monitored with any pressure point or combination of pressure points you like. Left heel pad is not one of the pressure points. Use right forearm takeaway.
Palm of the right hand, last 3 fingers of the left hand, crook of the right index finger. Hitters typically use 1 and 3 together. Swingers typically use 3 and maybe 2 also. Palm of the right hand is used to monitor extensor action, really just a modest attempt to always try to straighten the right arm. The left arm won’t let it straighten until it’s time.
For convenience and universal applicability, we refer to the “lag pressure point” as PP#3, the crook of the index finger.

Loren

Ok, to me the left heel pad and the last 3 fingers of the left hand feel the same because the club is “felt” in that area of the hand.
So, if this is the case then I feel the lag between the last three fingers and the crook of the right index finger. You callin’ me a swinger? lol. I feel like a hitter because I actively hit through the impact zone with my right arm. I don’t feel like (in Lags words) dumping the club at impact.
However, this still doesn’t help me with what to do with with my troublemaker right thumb stopping me from feeling that lag. I could always get it amputated :O

Often people will have a loose grip with one hand or another because their hands are not properly educated to sense and monitor true swing plane through impact. Swingers are often likely to have light grips because it is soooooo important that nothing interferes with the centrifugal force throw out action that must be carefully monitored all the way down. Any tightening of the fingers on the downswing can interfere with the passiveness that must happen to truly swing correctly.

This is all great as long as you PURE it..

Off center clubface hits with a light grip lack the support that firm hands can offer to fight any torquing of the clubface. It does happen.

I like the idea of having both hands firmly on the club for this reason.
I don’t want anything changing, if for whatever reason I start gripping tighter. I want my hands to know exactly what to do if TIGHTER happens.

I’m not interested in feeling helpless on the golf course, or feeling like I have to PUUUUUUURE it everday to keep the ball on the short grass.

Agreed. Firm grip, oily wrists.
Again I say, there’s no reason for the right thumb to be on the grip, hitter or swinger. You’ve not yet told us why you need it on the grip, or I forgot where you said that. Leave it off if you’re puring it.
What’s it doing? Limiting the travel in the backswing, at top? You don’t have it on top of the shaft do you? Move it to the fore side.
Right elbow bend, extensor action can do that for you. Drive loading if you’re a hitter can do that. According to Dart, it feels like the backswing is very short. Start the drive sooner.
All above my unauthorized opinion.

New computer just came in the door. I’ll be away for awhile. Carry on.

Lag
I think for me having both hands with a firm grip exacerbates the problem. In addition to this, taking the thumb off the grip doesn’t allow any sort of right hand grip pressure except for a feeling of pressing forward against the left hand to maintain the lag.

I need to know how to achieve this feeling with my thumb on the grip( I’ll try Loren’s idea of just having it resting on the tip of my index finger) because for me its contact on the grip nearly feels like the two hands are operating completely independently of each other because of the way the pressure is re-distributed.

An analogy is like holding a softball(nothing bigger for me) in your hands: If you remove one hand, the other can still hold it without dropping it. Now if I take my thumbs away, the only way to not drop the ball is to press the hands together. That’s exactly how I feel with this Brian Manzella drill.

Heh, I know I said I was going to be away, but I couldn’t resist.
Try hitting, drive loading, right hand only, thumb off the grip.
Left arm just measures the proper radius.
You can use the palm of the right hand to monitor lag if you want.

Now I’m gone.

I believe Fred Couples at one time, and I think VJ both have right hands that are not fully attached to the club at impact. It can be done
if the the right hand is totally passive and just monitoring. It’s really amazing what the brain can come up with for compensations.

I remember having similar sensations back in my swinging days. Knowing what I know now, I couldn’t imagine wanting to feel that again.
It’s true that for a swinger, the right thumb doesn’t have much function.
Your not alone with this sensation. I would actually see this as a good sign that you are swinging with good intentions.

I had a teammate in High School that had a perfect grip at address, but at the top with a nice flat left wrist his clubface was skyward. He couldn’t get any height on his shots, just trapped everything, low skidders. We finally figured out that he actually would twist the clubshaft in his hands on the way back into this shut position. Even he didn’t know he was doing this… amazing..

It took him about six months to fix it, and he later went on to get a college scholarship.

Lag
Based on your comments, are you of the opinion that I am a swinger of the hands (Homer said you swing the hands, not the club, didn’t he ;D)?
I have read that you grip it tight with both hands, but how do you feel the lag that way? I thought tight muscles equated to less feel.

Less feel does not equate to less lag. Just less feel of the lag?

Tight fingers but loose wrists is what Homer suggested. ie our hands are clamps. Our wrists allow for the zip of the uncocking action and #3 Accumulator roll.

Thanks Guru

Do you have any drills or feel analogies that will assist with this?
Maybe if I can grip with the fingers tighter than the thumb “clamp”, I’ll get a better idea of what works best for me.

LagPressure

I have just read this entire thread for the first time concentrating on your posts.

I can readily accept the fact that you are a hitter if you state that you are drive loading the club in the downswing.

However, you have also stated that Hogan was drive loading the club – especially from the 3rd parallel to impact (and presumably beyond impact). How do you know that?

I even found one post where you stated that virtually all tour players are hitters. How do you know that fact?

In one post you stated that you release PA#1 from the top of your swing and then implied that you supplied more power via the pivot at a later stage in the swing. How does a pivot-drive supply more power later in the downswing after you have released PA#1?

Jeff.

Golfur66,

By increasing your “true lag pressure” through impact, you can grip it as tight as you want with all the benefits of support and structure.

I can’t imagine you’re a hitter if your right hand is dangling on the club.
This is left side, passive right arm swingers stuff.

Without seeing your swing, I would suspect that your right thumb “wants” to get involved for good reason. You’re more than likely having swing plane issues, so it is trying to aid, help out with some compensation stuff. If you really had the shaft “on plane” from P3 to P4, I doubt you would be having issues with these sensations in the fingers of the right hand.

If you’re sold on swinging, go right to a swing plane x ray.

These are some great questions Jeff..

However, you have also stated that Hogan was drive loading the club – especially from the 3rd parallel to impact (and presumably beyond impact). How do you know that?

For the guys that bring a huge load into the release zone (lots of lag angle) Hogan, Peter Senior.. you have two options for dealing with this. First would be an automatic release, which would require “dead” hands, in which case you would see a full roll release with the arms separating from the body, swingers stuff.

Or you could use a non automatic release where the wrists make a strong deliberate “rip” into impact via an “active” #2 and #3 in a firm unison. I’m not talking gravity stuff here, intense muscular thrusting.
Now when you do this, you see a totally different path of the clubhead post impact. Look at Hogan and Senior, and how their hands appear to cut left after impact, and quickly disappear behind their bodies from a down the line camera view. The bigger the load, the stronger, and quicker the hands have to be to literally force the clubhead out of what would be a swingers orbit. How do I know?
Just look… I personally have done it both ways, and these are totally opposing protocols for dealing with a moving golf club. I’ll take Hogan’s or Senior’s move anyday over someone trying to “time” their release of a longitudinal dump with such an extremely loaded P3 alignment.

I even found one post where you stated that virtually all tour players are hitters. How do you know that fact?

Maybe I should rephrase that.. all the great ones.. and I mean the guys that don’t have to hit 8 million golf balls to keep their game in shape. VJ is a swinger, and he is scared to death to take a day off.
I don’t blame him. The guys that impressed me the most while I was on tour, Faldo, Woosnam, Price, Norman, Senior, O’Grady, Pavin. All hitters. All the swingers were much more on and off, week in week out. The guys I mentioned played the game on just one front… putting. They wouldn’t have to wait for both planets (putting and ball striking) to line up for a win.

In one post you stated that you release PA#1 from the top of your swing and then implied that you supplied more power via the pivot at a later stage in the swing. How does a pivot-drive supply more power later in the downswing after you have released PA#1?

PA#1 is the most miss understood thing in the golf swing. Hitting is not just a right arm hit with little pivot action. You could use just the right arm to hit little wedge shots, or chips, but the greats know that to maximize the rotation of the torso, it need to turn flat. Why? because the the further the left shoulder moves in distance away from the ball post impact, the greater the effectiveness of the pivot.
The right arm should never actually start the downswing, but as soon as the pivot gets things going, the right arm must move or straighten much quicker than people think, to keep the shaft low and behind if the shoulders are turning level or flat. The right arm is helping the club build momentum, but it’s bigger purpose is keeping the clubshaft onplane. If you don’t believe me, trying to hit a golf ball straight with a bent right arm on the downswing with flat shoulders.
It’s only going one way.. LEFT and PULLED.

You don’t want to completely unload #1, but it’s a good idea to save some some for post impact. If you can freeze the right arm at about 120 degrees from P3 to about 4:30 post impact (looking straight on at the player) would be ideal. Straightening the right arm through impact closes the clubface, and hitter’s don’t want that. The key to having an effective angle hinge is to hit with a frozen right arm from P3 to just past impact. Now of course swingers are all about getting to both arms straight, and that’s why you see the full roll stuff. The swinger’s rubbery arms just seek that position in the centrifugal way, as they should.. Hitters resist it for all the right reasons.

So what does the pivot do? Look at these fast left hips, that of course opens the gate for the torso to rotate quickly post impact and keep the body accelerating and applying pressure onto the shaft via the #4 pressure point. This is God’s stuff, but it’s what separates the good from the great. You could never do this too much, and the closer you get, the better you strike it, and the skies open up with the golden rays of golfing enlightenment.

Lag
I’m not sold on either method of flog, I just want to understand it better like everyone else here.
By dangling do you mean not having a vice like grip? I always felt like I gripped the club firmly until I tried the BM drill which just proved to me that I could swing without the “death grip”. Until then I always felt like I had a hitting sensation through impact and it came through my right hand and extensor action of my right arm.
All I felt I used my left arm for was to guide the club on the correct swing path (rightly or wrongly).

The right arm takes you up and down plane. The left is your clubface and radius control.

The right arm takes you up and down plane. The left is your clubface and radius control.

So, the left arm controls the radius but without having any input to the plane itself? Wow I’ll have to incubate that one!
I’ve always felt like that I get the club one plane(and radius I suppose). Then when I get to the release point when my right arm is bent at around 90 to 120 degrees (like Lag says above) I then try to straighten and fire with my right arm down the plane.
I hope that makes sense.

I refer to swinging in it’s purest sense, in that a pure swinger only pulls.
Zero right arm active participation. The right arm of the swinger should stay bent all the way down to P3 and it only straightens by the outward throwout action of centrifugal force. It must remain effortless, totally passive, non involved. As soon as you start to activate the right arm, or add any active participation of the right hand #3 rotation, or non automatic rotation into impact, you are hitting. This is where people get confused. I think within the TGM world, you will have a lot of differences in opinion as to where one starts and the other ends.

Greg McHatton demonstrates using a finger thumb only grip on both hands. Just the tips are used to hold the club. By doing this, you can only swing. If you try to hit, you’ll completely miss the ball. There are very few pure swingers. I suspect that most swinger- hitter armchair analyzers look at it as …. just more one way than another. I won’t call someone a swinger unless I see complete commitment to it’s principles. When someone says Tiger or Norman are swingers they would not qualify in my book. Way too much manipulation going on for my endorsement for a swinging medal of honor. I say this because I came from the most hard core swinging camp being groomed as a swinging “elitist purest” from the death camps of Ben Doyle and Greg McHatton. As much as I despise swinging now,
I completely admire both Ben’s and Greg’s relentless pursuit of golf’s ultimate pureness. When swinging is done correctly, it can be PUUUUUUURE!!!! But it is absolutely NOT grounded in anything practical if you have to get on an airplane every week… rigors of the road and all that.. never mind hold up under pressure, nerves, and when it goes south you are in deep stuff.

It will always be the topic of much debate, but I have a deep respect for the guys who can do it “swinging”.. but only in the purest sense, not the watered down version people interpret from today’s tour players.

I am probably a pretentious swinging purist at heart, or a least I will defend the guys who can do it. It’s a beautiful thing when it’s on, but I’ve never seen anyone do it with the consistency that hitting can offer.

Bobby Schaeffer had one of the purest swinging moves, and I have seen him just flush the ball so pure it’s frightening. But I have also seen him on other days hit is so sideways its equally frightening. When its’ on, it’s incredible, when it’s off it’s horrific.

So when a swinger is off, what exactly is letting him down? I would have thought an automatic release was more reliable than a non-automatic for example.

lagpressure – thanks for commenting.

You wrote-: “First would be an automatic release, which would require ’Äúdead” hands, in which case you would see a full roll release with the arms separating from the body, swingers stuff.”

I don’t know what you mean by arms separating from the body. If you are saying that the arms would move outwards towards the ball-target line, I don’t understand why that should happen in a swinger who has an automatic release – if he continues to rotate his torso well thus maintaining the arc of rotation of the shoulder sockets.

You wrote-: “Or you could use a non automatic release where the wrists make a strong deliberate ’Äúrip” into impact via an ’Äúactive” #2 and #3 in a firm unison. I'm not talking gravity stuff here, intense muscular thrusting. Now when you do this, you see a totally different path of the clubhead post impact. Look at Hogan and Senior, and how their hands appear to cut left after impact.”

You are implying that the fact that Hogan’s hands move quickly around to the tush line post-impact is due to an active release of PA#2/3 and that the golfer must be drive loading through impact. That’s a theory – do you have any evidentiary support for your theory? I think that Hogan’s hands move back quickly to the tush line post-impact because he continues to rotate his torso very actively around to the left post-impact and that torso action moves the left shoulder socket back around to the tush line more than can be seen in swingers who have less open shoulders during the followthrough phase of the swing.

Have you ever seen Lynn Blake’s swing? He looks like Hogan.

You can see his swing comparing himself to Hogan at

http://www.lynnblakegolf.co...

You will probably need to register to see his swing video. Lynn Blake can hit or swing and he states that when he is swinging (like Hogan) that he is not drive loading, and that he only drive loads when he uses his hitting action.

You wrote-: “because the the further the left shoulder moves in distance away from the ball post impact, the greater the effectiveness of the pivot.”

What do you mean by that statement – are you reffering to the effectiveness of controlling the direction of clubhead movement post-impact or the effectiveness of powering the golf swing? How can the pivot-drive’s “effectiveness” during the followthrough phase of the swing affect clubhead speed pre-impact?

Jeff.

Lag,

Don’t fall for the evidentiary proof routine. Your view is just wonderful for us to see.

What you do is fresh, energetic and insightful. Don’t get bogged down by dreary hairsplitting questions. There is no end to it.

Jeff, If you go study the Doyle camp or the McHatton camp, who both studied directly under Homer, the arms seperating from the body post impact is what has to happen for a true, pure, CF throw out action to happen. If you keep your arms tight on the body, you are re routing the swing plane into an entirely different protocol. You slow the clubhead down by pulling it out of it’s true expanding intentions. As soon as you interfere with this CF action, you are introducing hitting.

Now remember, we could argue this till the cows come home, but I was Doyle’s second from the top protege’ right behind Clampett, when this stuff first hit the conciousness of the golfing public in the late 70’s early 80’s. I had full ride scholarship offers from everyone, BYU, Holder, all the TGM schools.. Why? I was doing it.. and better than anyone at the time other than Clampett who was just turning pro. I learned it, applied it, felt it in the body, and lived it. Believe me my friend, I know what I’m talking about.

There is a purity in swinging that doesn’t exist in other forms. Think of it this way.. Pitch black or total darkness comes in only one way. It’s the absence of light of all light. As soon as you introduce a pin hole of light, it’s no longer dark. As soon as you introduce any light to a dark room in permeates. Swinging is like the purity of a perfectly dark room. Unmanipulated in any way. As soon as you offer up any manipulation to a true CF, you lose it to some degree.

Automatic release means just that. NO manipulation. Just law, geometry and physics doing their thing. Seeking an inline position at the true lowpoint. The toe of the club weighs more than the heel, and it too seeks that inline position.

The arms are free to move away from the body after impact.
Forcing them or pinning them into the body post impact manipulates the path of the shaft from it’s expansive intentions. If the arms fly off the body in this way, the right arm is just pulled into an inline position via CFnot any thrusting or muscular straightening. The wrists want to fully roll over against a FLW if you don’t add any manipulation.

It’s my belief that swinging can only truly exist in it’s pure form. Hitting has lots of forms. I have no choice but to take this to the grave because I actually lived it. You can’t unknow something.

True swinging is like a beautiful glass sculpture spinning on a gyroscope, it’s a thing of beauty and elegance. But if you mount it in the back of a pick up truck (on the road), you might (will) have problems.

So what’s the problem? True swinging makes two HUGE assumptions of the human body.

1. Free flexible wrists that won’t in any way manipulate.
2. A PERFECTLY steady and even acceleration offered up by the torso.

Proof for Hogan?
easy… right from the horses mouth.. “I wish I had three right arms!!”
More proof? find a close up of the veins popping out of his forearms post impact. This is not the product of dead noodle like arms via a swingers protocol.

The best proof? me..
I went from from dead hands to active hands.. to get the clubshaft to change course from P3 to P4 you have to activate them deliberately with drive loading via the #2 and #3 and #4 post impact.

Lynn Blake vs Hogan? can I see down the line shots from behind?
A frontal comparison has much less verification of hitting vs swinging intentions. I’d bet the farm Lynn’s post impact action doesn’t look anything like Hogans. Show me a comparison between Hogan and Lynn Blake (video not posed) from behind post impact just prior to P4 and we can continue this conversation.

The best comparison to show would be Bobby Schaeffer from behind, vs Hogan. Shaeff releases it in true swingers CF action.
Hogan cuts it left. Who’s better?

It’s not just flat shoulders that cut it left. It’s all of the above.

My own shoulders turn flatter than Hogan’s but I’m not nearly as tightly packed as Hogan. That’s why I don’t hit it as good as Hogan.
I miss one or two fairways a round, Hogan, one or two a month.
The days I’m faster with my hands actively, faster with the left hip, tighter through the ball, the better I hit it.. simple.

What do you mean by that statement – are you referring to the effectiveness of controlling the direction of clubhead movement post-impact or the effectiveness of powering the golf swing? How can the pivot-drive's ’Äúeffectiveness” during the followthrough phase of the swing affect clubhead speed pre-impact?

Yes and Yes, and speed of club pre impact by post impact pivot activity? It’s called acceleration. The effects of acceleration move backwards. It leaves it’s footprint in the sand, pre impact with a pre stressed clubshaft.

It’s ok..

Jeff has asked some good questions here..

lagpressure

Thank you for expressing your opinions in a detailed post.

Jeff.

Lag,

I travelled out of state for the holidays and then drove 15 straight hours yesterday (never much fun if your 6’2”), arriving home late last night, so the body was a little out of synch today. Hadn’t touched a club in over a week but hit a small bucket this afternoon using the same hitting thoughts you’ve been discussing and came right out of the gate “striping” it. More testimony to how well the hitting motion “travels”.

Our last 2-day event of the year starts Saturday. I plan to get some hitting practice in over the next few days and put it through some “tournament pressure testing” this weekend. I’ll incubate on what I’m feeling (and how it compares to my swinging procedure) and post on it after the weekend. I’m still absorbing those feelings and trying to get “clarity” on what they translate to “for me”.

Robbo

Play well and have fun in the event!

Keep your focus on the target on the golf course..

Aim it, feel it in the body, commit to that feeling, execute, live with the results..

Great post Lag,good reply Jeff

Brownman

I am glad that you liked my diplomatic reply. I disagree 100% with LP’s explanation, but I don’t feel the need to incite controversy by explaining why I think that he is totally wrong. Most forum members like his explanations, and forum members are perfectly entitled to harbor their personal biased opinions.

Jeff.

I thought Jeff was banned.

Had a cooling off time and allowed back to be involved in the friendly environment this place is.

No problem…

Jeff has every right to disagree with my posts..
I have no idea what Jeff’s theories are, so I really can’t comment.

If he can tell me things the will improve my ball striking abilities I would love to learn. My level of performance in the game can be attributed to keeping an open mind, TGM, Moe Norman have been great teachers for me over the years, and neither are popular in the eyes of the masses.

I welcome a complete swing analysis from Jeff so I can start hitting pins rather than leaving myself staring at a bunch of 15 foot birdie putts all day.

Moe could hit pins… maybe I can too when Jeff tells me the real secret.

Tears off self imposed gag! OUCH!

Jeff:

1. Your arrogance amazes me. Here we have a man who has trained TGM all his life and he has played professionally, provided this site with the best golf information it has ever seen and has taught people who can actually play golf so much; and you have the arrogance to 100% disagree? What even qualifies you to have the expertice to even question a man who has done things in golf that you would never achieve in 3 lifetimes?

2. Lynn Blake in the same sentence as Ben Hogan??? Now you are just showing absolute stupidity!

3. If you actually shut up and listened instead of challenging people constantly, you might actually learn something and be worth listening to!

If you can’t do there is NO WAY you can teach!

It’s like taking art lessons from someone who cant even draw but once read a book on brush stroke techniques! LUDICROUS!

4. Can you share your current golf handicap or best golf score with the forum?

Styles:

Thought the same, which is why I decided to return! Same reason why I now refuse to contribute to iseek anymore until it gets some credibility back by getting rid of such sources of absolute BS!

Guru:

Should have been a permanent move! I know I will probably get the same result now but it needs to be said! As long as Jeffman is allowed to contribute I won’t be. It is beyond a JOKE!

Im sorry but it has happened once too often for my likely to true information providers who have my upmost respect! Be a shame to lose someone like Lag for the likes of Jeff. Lag is just too nice though. I on the other hand am not, so I choose not to help anyone while this goes on. This site has so much potential for genuine people but not with constant protagonists that are allowed to consistantly mouth off when they have nothing worthwhile to say!

Lag Pressure:

From someone who has actually benefitted personally from your expert advice because I actually can do what you instruct us to do, so I know you are spot on with EVERYTHING you write, I sincerely apologise such a crackpot who has consistantly been destructive in every forum he posts in actually gets to voice such rubbish!!

Reapplies information sharing gag! And looks forward to the banning!

seconded, well worded ab

Actually on second thought you don’t have to ban me.. I QUIT!

Admin or Guru:

Please hereby cancel my account and remove every single one of my 1278 previous posts! I have truly lost every ounce of respect I had for this site.

To all the friends I have made here and golfers/mentors who have supported me:

Thank you for everything, I sincerely apologise for this decision but you know where to find me, I am prepared to help any of you at any time. Just not via iseekgolf!

No wonder so many elite golfers hate this site!

Bye bye

Brownman

I am glad that you liked my diplomatic reply. I disagree 100% with LP's explanation, but I don't feel the need to incite controversy by explaining why I think that he is totally wrong. Most forum members like his explanations, and forum members are perfectly entitled to harbor their personal biased opinions.

Jeff.

Jeffman,Thanks for reply,just for the RECORD,Ill back the likes of LAGPRESSURE and BIO and A-B

---

their contributions are from REAL experiences not your goodself.
No hard feelings just the way I see it…Thanks again

Lagpressure – you wrote-: “If he can tell me things the will improve my ball striking abilities I would love to learn.”

I don’t think that I can tell you things that can improve your ball striking abilities. Based on viewing your video and hearing from Paul, I suspect that you have a superb swing. In fact, you may have one of the best golf swings on planet earth.

When I stated that I disagreed with you, I was only referring to your cause-and-effect explanations. I will give you one example. You stated that you noted that Ben Hogan’s hands moved inside very quickly post-impact. That’s an accurate observation, which we can label an “effect”. We then have to postulate a theory to explain that “effect”. That theory will attempt to provide a causal explanation for that “effect”. You postulated a causal explanation – that Hogan actively drives PA#2 and PA#3 in a drive loading manner post-impact and that causes the “effect”. I simply disagree with your causal explanation. That’s all! I am not at all implying that your golf swing is less than supremely excellent.

Brownman – Your last post echoed what I initially stated in my first post to you – that “most forum members like his explanations, and forum members are perfectly entitled to harbor their personal biased opinions”. I too am entitled to harbor “biased personal opinions” even though AB apparently “feels” that I should be banned for harboring biased personal opinions that don’t represent the majority’s viewpoint.

Jeff.

Jeffman,

If you disagree with his causal explanation, what is yours? Or are you just disagreeable?

This is a place for colorful exploration, not “scientific” argument.

The majority are enjoying the progressive ideas cascading from his pen. Useful or not, right or not, new bright ideas from a fertile mind.

Disagree is easy. We prefer construction and more so if it is original.

Paul H

I am happy to respond. This is my theoretical explanation for the “effect” of Hogan’s hands going more around to the left – faster than occurs in most PGA tour golfers.

I believe that the left hand moves inside-left soon after impact if the left arm moves inside-left soon after impact. So, what primary factors move the left arm in the followthrough phase of the golf swing. I think that two major factors are in play.

i) Factor 1 – The amount the left shoulder socket moves up-and-away in a leftwards direction during the followthrough phase, which is related to the amount the shoulders are open at every moment in the followthrough phase of the swing. Hogan had a very assertive upper torso rotation post-impact and he continues to rotate very well during the followthrough phase, which means that his upper torso is very open (compared to other PGA tour golfers).

ii) Factor 2 – The amount of external rotation of the left humerus at the left shoulder socket while the shoulder socket is moving up-and-away during the followthrough phase. Hogan’s left arm moves inwards very fast post-impact and he keeps the club in front of his fast rotating torso, and that requires a lot of external rotation at the left shoulder socket joint.

My opinion is merely a theory. Theories on golf swing biomechnaics cannot easily be proven to be “true”. They simply have a certain level of plausability. If you find Lagpressure’s theory more plausible – that’s fine. We are all entitled to harbor personal opinions regarding the golf swing.

I actually believe that an increased amount of active PA#2/3 release in drive loading will more likely push the hands rightwards – because the thrust action of PA#1 release (which actually drives PA#2/3 in a non-CF swing) is down-and-out.

Jeff.

Jeff, let’s hear it..

Is this going to be the Hogan who came from way inside and rerouted the clubhead and the shaft, then turned “left” hard post impact with soft dead hands and a flat rotation with arms pinned on the body theory?

I hope you have a different theory than that Jeff…

Jeff,

I went down your road first when I made the change, it’s the obvious observation that would follow simple logic..

The problem is it doesn’t work.

I would have been able to save myself 8 months of pulling my hair out on this one.

Jeff, I understand your logic, it’s makes sense until you try it.

The problem is that when you come from so far inside like Hogan did, everything wants to go out to the right and away from the body. You’ll feel like you’re in the fight of your life everytime you swing the club…trying to keep your arms pinned on the body post impact. This pull it out of orbit thing from the swinger’s protocol is a velocity killer and an acceleration nightmare.

This is one of the great things about being a guinea pig, you actually get to experience what these things feel like in the body.

Another myth is that Hogan “dragged his right foot” I used to buy that one too.. until I learned what really happens..

Jeff,
That is the biggest load of horse sh.t I have ever read, any biomechanist will tell you what you have stated is untrue, No one can human possibly rotate the left shoudler up ward and away, with centrifugal force of the club pulling on your arms.
This isn’t golf biomechanics theories at all and don’t insult our industry with your verbal dribble, Your clueless to the study human body motion in golf and don’t make out you do.
You shit me Jeff do not mix golf biomechanics with mechanics they are two different worlds, especially when your clueless and can’t separate the two. Blokes like you make my life harder educating people on human motion in golf cause you confuse people by mixing the too.
READERS PLEASE UNDERSTAND, GOLF BIOMECHANICS IS THE STUDY OF HUMAN MOTION IN THE GOLF SWING, E.G PIVOT TRAIN.
NOT MECHANICS OF A SWING, swing planes educated hands etc

As a researcher and clinician of human body motion let me say, Lagpressure makes perfect sense and is music to my ears, if I was to describe golf biomechanics terms of hogans swing in mechanical lingo,
Lag couldn’t have worded this better of hogans swing mechanics.
Well done Lag keep up the great work, we all learn a great deal from you thankyou

Lag,

I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your explanations of swinging vs. hitting. It makes me realize towards the end of this season I started to subconsciously ‘swing’ more and more.

It also makes me realize why certain things may work for hitters vs swingers. The two seem to have a lot of contrasting elements.

It’s also funny how many training ideals I have subjected myself to and ‘most’ of them have versions of these ideals and just have different names for them.

I am not sure though which one would be better for the leisure (or non-professional) golfer.

I am just not so sure about extremist views. I believe I’ve been caught in that trap before where a teacher or ‘system’ has said this MUST be performed like x/y/z….. We all have such different body types and abilities. So many pro’s seem to have ‘home grown’ swings that seem to do well (earning a real living) while adopting some admittedly unorthodox swings.

I study a lot of pro swings. Some I can fit in your ideas easily, some I just think wow… what is this guy doing? Like a JB Holmes, etc.

I’m starting to come to the conclusion that there’s three categories. The third being: do whatever works AND is repeatable.

Really, really good posts here though. I’m enjoying it. Thanks.

Different shaft flexes, different swing weights, different dead weights, it forces my brain to be very keen and aware of what the shaft is doing.. it's always about acceleration, and pre stressing the shaft. If I am holding the flex, I can hit any club straight.. I need only about 2 or 3 swings to find out how open the face will be.. the looser the shaft, the more the face is open at impact… so I have to only adjust my release to accommodate the shaft of the day

Lag & Company,

Thanks for all your great posts!..It seems like I’ve climbed a small intellectual eye-opening mountain to finally get to page 41…

I understand that there are some ongoing topics of discussion ahead of my concerns but just wanted to get in line for an elaboration request for Lag in the above paragraph on “loose” shafts..

Lag, what out of the ordinary sensations do you feel for the loose shaft and open clubface if any? It is my understanding according to classic clubfitting theory that the softer the shaft the more left and higher the ball will go and the stiffer the lower and more right the bal will go…Or by holding/adding to the flex to impact & beyond with a loose shaft will keep the face open like you said? Also what adjustments from the norm do you make to your release to accomodate the shaft for the day?...

Lag, FWIW, you’re clicking with me too..I look forward to every one of your posts..

Thanks for the help and don’t intend to get in the way of the ongoing thread topics.

Prot, you may be interested to learn that there are pro’s playing on all the tours who are hitters but look like swingers!

Basically they have been taught to continue to a swingers finish, but on the way back down, re-establish their hitter positions.

If you go to LBG you will see a thread on this phenomenon. Two golfers identified are KJ Choi and David Toms.

link

Lagpressure

You are a model of civilized behaviour. You are willing to debate an opponent without insulting a forum member who has an opposing point of view. You are a good example for other forum members. Although I disagree with your thinking, I admire your willingness to simply present your personal opinion without attempting to denigrate your opponent because he holds contrary opinions.

You wrote-: “The problem is that when you come from so far inside like Hogan did, everything wants to go out to the right and away from the body. You'll feel like you're in the fight of your life everytime you swing the club…trying to keep your arms pinned on the body post impact. This pull it out of orbit thing from the swinger's protocol is a velocity killer and an acceleration nightmare.”

I disagree. I will simply present my argument and you are free to reject my argument.

I believe that the group of golfers who are most successful at keeping the club swinging in a rotary fashion around the body are the rotary swingers. The prototypical rotary swinger is a Hardy one-plane swing golfer.

Here is an excellent example of a Hardy OPS golfer.

Jeff Ritter

Here are a series of capture images from Jeff Ritter’s swing.

The characteristic feature of a Hardy OPS is their bent-over posture and their mantra – ABT (always be turning). I have never seen golfers turn as effectively post-impact as Hardy OPS golfers. They use Hogan as their role model. I used to use the Hardy OPS for about 3 months and I am very familiar with the technique. The key teaching is the idea of the inner circle – where the hands have to swing around the body along an inner circle. All Hardy OPS golfers try to swing their hands around that inner circle – especially post-impact. They easily achieve that goal by continuing to rotate aggressively post-impact.

Hardy OPS golfers are swingers. They use the “passive hand” concept and they never drive their hands actively through the impact zone. They depend on centrifugal forces for clubhead release. Despite their use of a centrifugal release – they have no problem swinging their arms, hands and clubshaft in a rotary manner around their body.

Jeff.

@Styles: Hmmm, interesting.

When I was first attempting to seriously improve my game, for better or worse, I picked up Jim Hardy’s DVD’s.

He identified both of those players as a ‘two plane’ style. Or maybe more of a ‘swinger’ type.

I aspired to hit like KJ Choi a lot. I have lots of his videos, including stuff I studied in V1 Home software.

Why did I do this? Because I felt my swing was closest to his. I have down the line footage where his swing is nearly over the top, but at the very least, his swing is quite steep.

Also I felt I went too far back, as he sometimes does. He lifts the club a lot less at the top then he did even 1-2 years ago.

Now I am hearing you guys believe him to be a Hitter with some swinger moves…..

Here’s what question this leads me to: If this is true (KJ is a hitter) is it not a total and utter waste of energy/effort for him to get his hands that high in the backswing?

I ask because as I do more of Lag’s drills, over and over, and over, I find I take less, and less back swing and my hands do NOT go as high as they used to. To me at least, it would seem that if I am doing this right, then by raising your hands that high in the backswing, you’ve now created a situation where you have to re-route your hands on the way down, because you’re too high at the top????

Am I way off track here? Does this make sense to anyone else??? I admit my thinking on this comes from nothing more than my experiences of originally trying to swing like KJ Choi ALL last winter ,to now doing Lag’s drills the last 6 weeks. Excuse my ignorance, just trying to get a grip on what you guys are really saying.

Biomechanic wrote-: “No one can human possibly rotate the left shoudler up ward and away, with centrifugal force of the club pulling on your arms.”

See the Jeff Ritter swing video that I mentioned in the above thread.

I find it astonishing that anybody would think that a golfer cannot rotate his torso and arms in a circular manner post-impact if he employs a centrifugal release. The amount of pull pressure exerted on the shoulder sockets by the centrifugally-released club is very small compared to the power of a golfer (Hardy OPS) to keep the arms rotating in a circular fashion around the rotating torso using the ABT philosophy.

Jeff.

Prot, I am speaking from an uninformed position and recommend either awaiting the brains trust’s views or going over to LBG and reasking the question there.

That said, I have read and heard Lynn Blake assert that for those golfers who are hitters but have the look of swingers that indeed it is a total waste of effort to proceed to the swingers finish of the back swing.

Speaking about putting for a moment,

I can't express how important the applications of TGM are in the smallest of strokes.. putting.

There is a lot of talk about power, dynamics, and how to use the golfing machine to maximize power accumulators to create the amazing wallop into ball, hitting or swinging.

In my studies of TGM with both Ben Doyle, Greg Mc Hatton, and other TGM players, very rarely did putting come up in conversation about G.O.L.F.

I have to admit, that in my quest to REALLY learn how to putt, the best lesson I ever received was from a well known Canadian senior teacher who was recommended to me by both Moe Norman and Bob Panasik.
His name …Alvie Thompson. Alvie told me more about putting in 30 minutes than I had learned in 20 years on my own. My one lesson with him took place in a coffee shop at Mc Cleary Golf Club in Vancouver.
Everything I had learned and worked on my whole life just went right out the window. What he said made more sense than anything I had ever learned from anyone or found out myself about putting.

Amazingly, nothing was more ’Äúgolfing machine” than what he said.

My old way was stiff wrists, straight back, straight through, practicing
through a Pelz track with rails, neutral grip position.

His way was extreme weak left hand, extreme strong right hand,
4 opposing pressure points in both hands. Free loose wrists, firm but flexible (sound familiar?) steep downward angle of approach (divot) and a plane shift (loop). He was big on different stance and weight distribution alignments depending upon left to right, right to left, uphill, downhill. Reverse loft of the putter face was big on his ideals as well. It took me about 6 weeks to incorporate these ideas into my putting stroke and this soon manifested into having a run of shooting 37 under par in a three week period of competitive golf. I have never putted ’Äúbad” for any extended period since.

Everything Alvie taught me was easily transposed into golf machine ideology. It was the single best lesson I have ever had.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Lag,

When employing the putting grip you describe, does the right thumb now become the #3 PP “sensor”? I’ve messed with it a bit and don’t quite know how to get the right forefinger position that is normally associated with #3.

I recall seeing a closeup picture of Pavin’s grip many years ago and was surprised at how “unorthodox” it looked, but it does lock the wrists in place nicely.

Robbo

Let’s talk about pronation – and Hogan’s own writing on the topic of his left hand and his hands in general.

Here’s a hypothesis:

Hogan’s left hand is pressing down (towards the arched position) hard from a ‘cupped’ at the top to a flat/arched left wrist through the downswing.

I believe this left hand action is a very active move for him (read the book – he’s obsessed with it) and it causes what you could call a ‘reverse flip’ in his swing.

Pronation is NOT rolling of the forearm, it is pressing downwards hard with the left hand from the wrist – to produce the raised left wristbone Hogan is very big on. Basically, it is the motion from a cupped left wrist to an arched one.

As has been said elsewhere, at the top of the swing, this move is responsible for his plane shift. (This guy (Tom Bertrand) has some fascinating thoughts. on the subject).

So, Hogan’s left hand is pressing back through the swing, not rushing toward the target (breaking down). His right hand is powering at the target.

These powerful opposite forces produce incredible stability at the top of the club (in the clamps) and energy at the clubhead – this is the opposite of what most people generate.

Also, I would speculate that by basically pressing into his right hand with his left, he improved his feel – his feel in his right hand (?).

And if we’re talking dictionary (see intro to most ‘Five Lessons’), pronation means ‘down’, not ‘around’. It’s basically a hugely powerful anti-flip move.

Hogan’s hands cut left more than usual because they resist the force to go out and away from the body so powerfully – via the back of his left hand.

PS: Let’s all chill. It’s a privilege for all of us to be able to even talk about this sort of thing!

Mashie72,

The looser the shaft, the more the clubhead lags behind the hands.
With very loose shafts, this can actually be quite significant. The beauty of learning to hold the flex longer, and hopefully all the way down, is that if the pivot is turning in a level or rotary fashion, impact happens at a different point in the torso’s rotation, meaning later.
The clubface is more open with a stressed clubshaft, and it’s also trailing more…so it takes a bit more time to arrive at impact given the same rotational velocity. So impact happens with the shoulders and hips a bit more open. It just takes a split second longer to hit the ball.

There is a real change in the look of the divots I make too. With the loose shafts the divots feather off to the left on the leading side… yet the ball starts straight at the target. It’s really fun to see the divots feathering left of the plane line on a draw shot.. the ball starts right of the target with a divot that looks like I cut the shot slightly. I love the feeling of that.. makes me want to run out the golf course right now!

If I am swinging purely, meaning I am properly accelerating and holding the flex, I can strike the ball just fine even with regular or loose shafts.

Over acceleration unfortunately has a terrible effect upon a loose shafts, and since 99.99999 percent of golfer over accelerate, they can to some degree benefit from stiffer shafts, particularly with the better players. I love to over accelerate too, so if I am playing a competition, I am likely to go out with X shafts if I want to keep the ball in play with my over accelerating tendencies. But if I am really swinging well, I might prefer say an S300 over and X as I can work the ball a bit easier with slightly looser shafts. The ability to curve the ball left to right or right to left to get to tight pin placements has great value..

My 1935 Bobby Jones irons have some really loose shafts, and I love going out with those things. what a great discipline! You just have to WAIT on it… it just requires such a better golf swing. Hitting a flush pure shot with those razor like blades is just golfing nirvana to me. The way the divots shape, the zip on the ball, the workability of it..

Guru hit that set when he was out here playing with me at the Mare,
I’m sure he can attest..

Now for standard clubfitting, clubs are not fit for players with the idea they will holding the flex to the ball and beyond, just the opposite.
An unflexed, clubshaft throwaway impact… will throw the ball high and left as you mentioned for most… and other inconsistent patterns. That’s all the hit and hope (pray) stuff. I like to know where to ball is going, not have to guess, hope or pray.

Lag,

Thank you for your clear picture, explanation, and thoughtful response…Priceless for me..I’ve never really felt comfortable with that clubfitting myth..

I understand there are many more topics on your plate but I’d like to follow up on over acceleration..I understand after it happens, but do you feel any shaft/educated hands sensations before it happens and know you’re doomed ahead of impact into the fourth parallel?

Much appreciated..

First Jeff,

Let’s not talk about one plane anything.. there is no “one plane” going on here.. People love to try to simplify the golf swing with such theories as “one plane” or “three steps to simple golf”.

Let’s also try to be respectful to Mr Hogan’s legacy. I have utter respect, admiration, and I’m in awe whenever I watch a clip of the greatest golf swing of all time. Any attempt to compare Lynn Blake or Ritter… to Hogan’s… is more than questionable.

I understand completely where you are coming from, but I can assure you that Hogan would drive the ball 40 yards by Ritter’s dead hands approach. Mr Hogan would not describe “wishing I had three right arms” if he was feeling Ritters’ and your dead hand approach through impact.

The thing you are missing here is that by firing the #2 and #3 (and this happens very quickly and is not easily visible) it takes some of the pressure off the #4 pressure point, so that the left hip, torso, can fire with lightening speed post impact like a two stage rocket. The torso has to slow down, and during this moment of delay, these other accumulators take over, then #4 picks up in an attempt to keep stress on the shaft post impact. Hogan needed help to keep stress on the shaft from all the accumulators, Hogan is the ultimate model of this. He used 1 2 3 4 and the post impact 5.

Ritter is a classic example of a guy who almost gets it.. teaching positions but not dynamics.. Hogan’s positions were a product of dynamics, not passive behavior.

You can get the “cut it left look” doing it the way you describe, but by leaving the #2 and #3 sitting on the table, you lose your two main velocity accumulators, and completely give up the quest for the holy grail of the game.

Hogan was much wiser than that.

Robbo,

The heel pad of the right hand takes over as the new pressure point.
The old #3 right forefinger is now on the other side, but it still feels pressure, but in a locking in way. The other PP is the left hand heel pad.

I use this grip, it’s great stuff..it stops me from ever putting really bad like I used to..

Beez,

Nice clip from Bertrand,

It’s amazing how many different takes their are on the topic of Hogan’s cupped wrist, and the laying off and all that.. That was some nice introspective insight..

I agree that if people start trying to work on that, it’s going to likely be a nightmare for most average golfers, and even the pros as he makes that point.

Personally I love the cupped left wrist at the top, and I employ it in my own swing.

The main thing it does is it opens the clubface so from a TGM view it really creates more potential for #3. It could be argued I suppose that it is it’s own micro accumulator because it is not either wrist cock #2 nor is it forearm rotation #3. It really adds a bit more range of motion for #3 to move within.

Personally I unlike Bertrand’s take of flattening it out right away to lay off the club, I keep mine cupped for as long as I can on the way down. The clubshaft lays off ever so slightly, but not because I try to do anything with the hands, but like he said just from the change in direction.

I love how he talked about how all the pros at the time who were trying to copy Hogan’s “secret” had trouble and called in nonsense.

As much as I try to keep it cupped, the acceleration I generate in my own swing throws it inline or flat right as I pass P3. I couldn’t bring a cupped left wrist into impact if I tried a million tries!

If the pros who were trying to copy this move, didn’t fire the hips as fast as Hogan, didn’t fire the hands from halfway past P3 to impact as he did, they might inevitably have issues with the cupped action.

The laid off thing is great too, it really loads up the range of motion for #3. It gives #3 more time to build speed up, for the non automatic deliberate hand firing technique I also use… that Jeff here so detests.

Hogan’s secrets just keep coming.. there are so many secrets it’s the lotus flower of never ending secrets that keeps blooming 50 years past his playing days..

Mashie72,

I just recently wrote about that very subject in my book… the feeling in the hands that happens when we over accelerate.. I call it the “dead zone”, a true black hole of no feel that we experience when we lose lag pressure pre impact. It’s not always the club getting ahead of the hands, but it’s the feeling of losing the flex of the shaft pre impact.

Golf then becomes “hit, hope and pray” rather than “aim, fire, and know”

Love that last post. It’s those times when you have just missed the sweet spot that you knew you were going to miss hit it. Or knowing for sure you did it all right and knowing where to look for the ball in flight.

Beezneeds – you wrote-: “Pronation is NOT rolling of the forearm, it is pressing downwards hard with the left hand from the wrist – to produce the raised left wristbone Hogan is very big on. Basically, it is the motion from a cupped left wrist to an arched one.”

I think that you are wrong. You are describing palmar flexion.

Here are precise medical definitions of wrist and hand movements.

Wrist movements

Jeff.

He gotcha there Beez:)

Jeff,

I loved your post there on the bones in the hands.. even Homer never took it that far..

I’m not sure how to extrapolate how to use the bone charts to get the ball closer to the hole with a 5 iron, but what would help me is to understand why I feel so stiff in the morning when I get out of bed, and why it takes me 2 hours to feel a sense of flexibility in my body without chewing on muscle relaxers.

Jeff, what causes the muscles to stiffen up during the night? It’s always been a problem for me, not just because I am now in an older body.

I have known players that claim to be able to just get out of bed and are as loose as can be, touch their toes, or even put their palms on the ground within seconds of getting out of bed.

Early tee times have been tough for me over the years no matter how early I get up..

Its’ much easier as a hitter of course, but when I was a swinger it was just death to be stiff..

Thoughts Jeff?

OK, I’ll wait to read Chapter 5 “The Dead Zone”...I hope it will be as good as Chapter 4 “The Four Intentions”

Just being creative and thought of this today, I’ve got a little dynamic shaft deflection detector for clubfitting…It’s a laser device with an audible tone that chimes when it detects a reflective piece of tape..It mounts to your shaft up near the grip and the beam is adjustable to point anywhere you want..(Just in front of the face/somewhere on the head of the club…

My idea is in order to test for max lag, I need to make it beep and only beep at the end of my swing…or I could set it up the other way to test for throwaway before impact…Maybe Lag has already been down this path before…but if not I just wanted to pass on this practical test for max lag and throwaway instead of the camera…It should work..I’ll experiment with it in my backyard lab this weekend..

I’ll end this monlogue but it might be useful to someone if it pans out and you catch my drift..

Great pictures Jeff, they are the first pics that I have seen the clearly show how Pronantion and Supination work. Those are great reference pics.

Jeff,

I loved your post there on the bones in the hands.. even Homer never took it that far..

I'm not sure how to extrapolate how to use the bone charts to get the ball closer to the hole with a 5 iron, but what would help me is to understand why I feel so stiff in the morning when I get out of bed, and why it takes me 2 hours to feel a sense of flexibility in my body without chewing on muscle relaxers.

Jeff, what causes the muscles to stiffen up during the night? It's always been a problem for me, not just because I am now in an older body.

I have known players that claim to be able to just get out of bed and are as loose as can be, touch their toes, or even put their palms on the ground within seconds of getting out of bed.

Early tee times have been tough for me over the years no matter how early I get up..

Its' much easier as a hitter of course, but when I was a swinger it was just death to be stiff..

Thoughts Jeff?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

that’s becos Jeff is a Medical Doctor by Training..i believe
so he may have answers to our bodily wounds…
that stiffness can be partly a genetic thing
as sam snead is also known to be very flexible into his geriatrics years…

Lag what clubs were you playing at the time you left the PGA tour in 93 ?

i believe Davis Love 3 was (one of the) last pga pro to use a persimmon before switching to the metals ?in 97

I think you’re correct about Davis, I believe he was the last player to win on tour with a persimmon wood. Quite a historic moment, the end of the persimmon era. I wonder how long it’s been since a pro anywhere has won a professional event with persimmon, other than the event last week in Vegas.

I played a set of Maxfli pro specials blades most all of my career. They were a custom set from the factory, very basic, clean lines, nothing fancy.

They actually looked a lot like the 69 Dyna Bullet Backs. I still have them. Shafts X100s. They were basically the Australian Blade design from the mid 70’s.

I never saw another set of them anywhere. To my eye, they were the best looking blades I had ever seen.

In college I played Hogan Apex ll. I played Titleist Tour Forged for one season then went back to the Hogans. I hit the Hogan PC’s for a bit too. I liked that set. My Tony Penna persimmon driver is still in my bag from College. I used that to win in college, the Windsor Charity Classic on the Canadian Tour in 1991, and it took me back to the winner’s circle again last week. It’s a driver that just never goes left. I have never found a driver I pipe as straight as that thing.
It’s really heavy, D-5 and just under14 onces. Force is equal to mass times velocity. Don’t under estimate the concept of a heavy club. If you can get it moving, you’ll compress the ball more. More energy gets transfered into the ball. Once you hit it long enough, it’s all about control and straight.

Well the late Mike Austin still holds the longest drive recorded on tour, and it was done with a persimmon driver.

Coincidentally enough, Davis Love III has the 2nd longest recorded.

Jeff, what causes the muscles to stiffen up during the night? It's always been a problem for me, not just because I am now in an older body.

I have known players that claim to be able to just get out of bed and are as loose as can be, touch their toes, or even put their palms on the ground within seconds of getting out of bed.

not jeff but the vast majority of stiffness isnt the muscles you are feeling, but the joints. muscles in fact cant really feel stiff. sore maybe, if they were overworked

joints stiffen up overnight because you are no longer actively lubricating them with movement, and because you are not using your ‘muscle pumps’ to move blood around the body to remove the various mediators of inflammation that build up during movement

it is also a sign of some diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis, which is worth keeping in mind, but unlikely to be a problem in your age group

the simplest (and only) way to deal with stiffness is to utilise a proper joint warm up. stretching will do nothing for this feeling, and in an effort to ‘loosen up’ it is very easy to overstretch and do damage to yourself

a joint warmup/lubrication is simply to rotate each joint well in its socket, along its ranges of motion, without stressing it, which would cause undesired fluid shift. hip hulas, arm windmills and very importantly for golf wrist and ankle twirls, in both directions. do this every morning and your body should feel looser

drink a lot of water the night before playing and you will help keeping the joints lubricated also, although your sleep will probably be disrupted needing to pee it all out! the price to pay

hope that helps

edit: even if it is your muscles, due to overwork or other causes, a similar philosophy applies. warm them up before you stretch them. this means flex, extend, rotate and turn every joint you have through an easy range of motion, for long enough in each direction to get the blood flowing. when the blood flows it can clear away all the nasty chemicals that make you feel ‘stiff’. its important to remember that like the golf swing, what you feel isnt necessarily what is happening. the stiffness could be a tightness sensed in muscle spindles and tendon organs, but it could also be chemoreceptors detecting levels of cytokines and other chemical that your brain reads as stiffness

edit 2: muscle relaxers are absolutely unnecessary. if you cant function without them then i’d say you need further medical testing to find out why. what sort of pills specifically?

Good stuff Soulmanz – I was hoping you saw Lag’s post.

The following questions are regarding the left and right arm planes on the downswing.
First I’ll just try and clarify the precursors for the questions.
At impact, the left and right wrist not only have to be hinged/bowed etc correctly, but they also have to have the correct mount of cocking(taken from Jeffmans link above). Neutral I’m guessing is normal. Not up or down cocked too much.
Now, if I bring my left arm into impact such that a straight line from the shoulder socket, through the arm and club points at the ball, wont that mean my left wrist is cocked down too much? Shouldn’t it be neutral?
Ergo Batman, for it to be neutral, the left arm plane must be below this imaginary line(I’ll call it SS2BL-Shoulder Socket to Ball Line).
Now, on to the right forearm plane, which if I have read correctly here, is on plane with the clubshaft from some point before impact (waist high say) into impact.
Now, finally, if all of these things go to plan, I have TWO arm planes: the entire left arm below the SS2BL and the right forearm on the shaft plane.
I have tried both of these methods(left arm on and under SS2BL) and without knowing why or how it affects the correct release of the club, have had very different results.
The left arm on SS2BL seemed to cause both wrists to cock down excessively and vary contact quality and shot direction.
Left arm below SS2BL resulted in better contact, and more power and “whip” through lag from the later hit from the right side.
My problem with all of this is that while I can visualise where my left arm target is if I swing it on SS2BL, I can’t repeatedly visualise or do consistently is KNOW where the left arm plane below SS2BL has to be.
I really hope this makes sense to someone that can proffer an explanation, because I’m going cukoo I think.

Hmmm…..interesting Jeff, and thanks. You’re right of course, but I’m not 100% sure you’ve ‘got me’ as guru puts it! (bear with me – I have a technicality! – see below).

Lag – I think my use of ‘arch’ is maybe a little much. I mean from a cupped to a slightly concave position rather than a really arched one. Basically, from cupped to the ideal wrist position. Silly me! Thanks again for your remarks.

I’ll try to explain my thinking a little further.

Again I’m looking at Hogan’s hands and wil work closely from Five Lessons (which I didn’t have with me last time!!!! excuses…..).

The key question is this: what did Hogan mean by pronation and supination? We all know they are ‘palm up’ and ‘palm down’ words but it is key to ask: “what are his reference points for the word?”

Is it medical terminology? Where did Hogan pick the word up? What did he intend it to mean?

From a close reading of his writing, I think his reference points for the words are the sky and the ground. (and not, as is often assumed, the relationship of different body parts to eachother).

The evidence:

(This is from Hogan’s discussion of impact):

Five Lessons Page 100: ‘During this climactic point in the swing, the left wrist and back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly – that is, to turn from a position where the palm is facing down to a position where the palm is up’.

Essentially, he’s talking about how, at the top of the backswing, his palm faces the ground, but at impact, it slightly faces the sky. That’s it!

There is more:

Look at the drawing of the golfer on Page 103 with the caption (let’s assume Hogan approved the drawing). The picture clearly show a golfer with a bent left wrist/open clubface combination.

Hogan writes in the drawing’s caption: “by pronating the left wrist just before impact, a golfer expends his clubhead speed before he strikes the ball, restricts the arc of his swing, (and) opens himself to making numerous other errors’.

On page 101: “When a golfer’s left wrist begins to pronate just before impact, it changes his arc: it shortens it drastically and makes the pitch (angle) of his upswing altogether too steep or constricted”.

Page 101: ‘As his club comes into the ball, he (the bad golfer) starts to pronate the left wrist – to turn it so that the palm will be facing down.’

It can be argued that Hogan tends to use the word ‘turn’ where other writers might use ‘bend’.

How do you ‘turn’ your left wrist so that it is facing down when coming into the ball? You break (unflatten) it or – in Hogan terminology – you ‘pronate’ it.

So, again, what does Hogan mean by ‘down’ – I believe he means pointing at the ground. Basically, this is about nothing more than left wrist breakdown. – which is what Hogan’s discussion of ‘pronation’ – the bad golfer move at impact – is all about.

To be clear – for the Five Lessons discussion to make sense, it is essentiall to think about what Hogan meant by pronation and supination.

Finally, on the hand action/cutting left thing – have we mentioned Hogan’s weak left hand finger grip? Hogan’s clubface is near fully rotated by the time it reaches impact – so that he can’t snap hook. His hands are finished and – pretty soon after impact his left forearm begins to roll over (and face the sky).

Take a weak left hand finger grip and try swinging from FLW impact position to one where your your left hand and forearm roll over and start to point at the sky post impact and then swing towards a finish.

Cutting left – where else are they going to go!?

(again, see p.103 for an interesting drawing).

I look forward to more comment – and to the flaws in my argument being pointed out! – but I am pretty sure I’m on to something!

I thought it had been shown that what Hogan said he did [in 5 lessons] and what he actually did were different.

‘Feel is not real’ and all that.

Hi Styles -

Possibly true in that sometimes the pictures don’t appear to tell the whole story/match up.

This is about Hogan’s swing philosophy as much as his actual swing, and if we’re talking about pronation and supination it is useful to try to figure out exactly what Hogan’s definition of the word was.

I would argue you can’t just take the word and say it means ‘X’ and go on from there. You must look at the context, and the word’s reference points to get an accurate ‘translation’ because if you have a fundamental error built in at this stage, everything else ends up a mess (like most Hogan discussions lol!). Arguably a strict medical definition has been applied to a non-medical context.

What Hogan meant by pronation and supination of the wrist – and he always talks about the wrist – is worth looking closely at.

I agree

Beezneeds

You can understand Hogan’s use of the word “supination” if you look at the drawing on page 102.

He shows the left hand supinating during the release swivel phase of the downswing. Supination is due to left forearm rotation, which causes the back of the left hand – which faced the ball-target line at the delivery position to face the target at impact. Part of that 90 degree left hand rotation is due to external humeral rotation at the left shoulder socket joint and part of it is due to left forearm supination. By impact, the back of the flat left wrist faces the target. At impact, Hogan’s left wrist was also slightly arched (palmar flexed) which he incorrectly referred to as part of the forearm supinatory action. He probably didn’t realise that supination was a forearm movement and arching a wrist motion, and he used the term “supination” to describe his hand movement “feel” as a single motion.

In the drawing, you can see his left hand continuing to supinate post-impact. That is actually part of the finish swivel phase. Hogan grew up during the pre-video era and he probably didn’t realise that there was a short followthrough phase where the left wrist didn’t rotate independently but where it rotated at the same rpm as the left arm/forearm/clubshaft as a hinging action.

Pronation as the term used by Hogan in that photo on page 103 is wrong. It is dorsiflexion due to loss of clubhead lag and flipping. The palm would be facing groundwards because the left forearm supinatory action that normally occurs during the release swivel phase would be incomplete – therefore the dorsiflexed left wrist would be facing slightly groundwards. However, that same wrist position could occur if a golfer stopped supinating his forearm during the finish swivel phase and started pronating his hand instead – which would be a very strange movement.

Jeff.

Lagpressure – I don’t think it is known why certain healthy athletes have morning stiffness. Most morning stiffness is due to joint stiffness, which is a common cause of morning stiffness in rheumatoid arthritis patients. Muscle stiffness in the morning is a common complaint in fibromylagia patients, but it could be due a central problem (central nervous system problem due to altered/abnormal brain sensitivity to peripheral sensory receptors in muscles).

Morning stiffness in atheletes can occur due excessive exercise where the muscles become swollen with fluid overnight – fluid collecting as a response to muscle fibre injury occurring during the previous day’s exercise activity. Some people theorize that “bands” form between muscle fibres overnight, and that it takes time for those “bands” to loosen (be disrupted) when the person starts moving in the morning. However, that theory is probably not supported by conclusive research evidence of definite structural “bands”.

Jeff

Golfur66

The following questions are regarding the left and right arm planes on the downswing.
...
At impact, the left and right wrist not only have to be hinged/bowed etc correctly, but they also have to have the correct mount of cocking(taken from Jeffmans link above). Neutral (ed: “level”) I'm guessing is normal. Not up or down cocked too much.
Now, if I bring my left arm into impact such that a straight line from the shoulder socket, through the arm and club points at the ball, won’t that mean my left wrist is cocked down too much? Shouldn't it be neutral?

[Edited the blockquote too much. Golfur goes on to mention a left-arm-shoulder plane angle, calling it SS2PL for shoulder-socket-to-plane-line, or ball. Read the original post.}

Terms: “level” for neither cocked nor uncocked, instead of “neutral”, which does not appear anywhere in TGM, including grip. We use the abbreviation FLV for flat, level, vertical (to the ground).

The logic error here is the left arm and clubshaft being in line with the ball at impact. They’re not. There is Lag, PP#3. There’s still a bit of wrist cock and roll accumulators. Not until low-point are they in line, which would be at the bottom of your divot, under the left shoulder socket/armpit, after separation.
At impact the hands are mid-left thigh, the ball is somewhere back from there, the clubface about 3 degrees open, more or less, just as you set up at Impact Fix address.

From the book, under the shoulder turn component, Homer says: “Incidentally, with a zero accumulator #3 (ed: clubshaft to left arm angle, either uncocked or a palm grip) there is, theoretically, a left arm-shoulder inclined plane angle. Therefore, being synonymous terms, it is far better to consider it as Zero Accumulator #3.”
That’s the only reference to a left arm-shoulder plane angle in the book.
So if you’re putting or chipping (Basic Motion, no pivot, no wrist cock) you can think of Zero Accumulator #3, but in no other situations do you think of a left arm-shoulder plane angle.

The plane is the boss, the right forearm and shaft are on the plane, the left arm is inert, kept relatively straight with Extensor Action (Golf School article).

Forget the idea of a left arm plane.

to add on from what Jeff just said, while bands have not been identified, certainly without continual use the actin and myosin heads in muscle (which are the microscopic units that move your body) become less ‘connected’ and less co-ordinated

add to this the fact that each tendon has a sheath it runs through, and each muscle has a bag around it (fascia) that it rubs against, the very act of warming up slowly and without stress lubricates all of these areas, as well as the joints and also re-engages the actin/myosin system to work as expected

imagine a car engine working without oil, and im sure you can see why you feel like you do

and as i said, proper fluid intake is really the key for maintaining lubrication in these areas. overuse will cause fluid shift away from the areas you want and into other regions, which is part of why you can feel stiff. golfers are very prone to dehydration as well, and dehydration at a minor level can worsen these feelings significantly

i would expect someone who plays a round of 18 per day, or hits the equivalent number of balls would need to drink 3-4L of water to truly stay hydrated. and lay off caffeinated beverages as well as alcohol, which increase dehydration

at the end of the day everyone has genetic variation. there will be people who can go out, play 36 holes, get hammered, get 2 hours sleep and play again, without warm up. their joints have great blood supply and self-lubricating mechanisms. the majority need to work at it

Thanks for that post Soulman, that’s very useful information. Interesting note about stretching before you warm up, I always felt that was the wrong thing to do.

I’d love to blame stiffness on getting older, but I felt that way as a teen too. Thanks for all the good input. I have a few new things to experiment with.

jack, i guess i meant loosen up before you warm up. if you read my first post that is the opposite of stretching. like you say stretching without warmup can be dangerous

Lagpressure

Y I used to use the Hardy OPS for about 3 months and I am very familiar with the technique. The key teaching is the idea of the inner circle – where the hands have to swing around the body along an inner circle. .

Jeff.

Hello Jeff
As far as you are familiar with the technic can you post some videos of your own swing as Lag did for himself. I think that it may be a great help for better understanding of the theorical point of view of some posts.
TY

Lag,
I won’t go into detail it’s to hard to explain, but your stiffness in your case is due to muscular loading, all good players get this cause they know how to load their muscles in the golf swing correctly, and know how to use the short and contracting cycle of the muscles in the swing. it’s like running a marathon and your latic acid kick in and your get burning or pain sensation, along the same lines in the golfswing.
To explain muscular loading is too hard in writing and even to physio’s is a hard one ,being we the only company who effectively and acurate measure muscular loading,So it’s a hard one to explain. but muscular loading is applied in all sports, As a human motion software company we struggle trying to educate people mucular loading in human motion. To understand this you need to bascially know biomechanics,physiotherapy and mechanics of the sport to fully grasp the concept and have full understanding.
Tennis and baseballers when we screen them find they suffer the same as golfers, which is a simular motion. when you look at their atomical 3d model you can clearly see whats going on. Very interesting topic and interesting to study.
There some great research paper written by kinesiology on this topic, one our guy did is amazing, but to hard to explain

Phil

I simply cannot fathom how viewing my swing has any relevance to the logic of my arguments. I have tried many different swing styles (Hardy OPS, Hardy 2PS, Hogan pivot-driven swing, Leslie King arm swing etc.) and I cannot perform one of those swing styles well due to many physical imperfections. What do you gain by viewing an imperfect execution of a particular swing style, when you can view a perfect execution of that particular swing style?

I have never seen Homer Kelley swing a golf club, and I don’t have to see him swing a golf club to consider his ideas very seriously.

Jeff.

Bio,

I just got out of bed, and by bending over at the waist, I can only get my finger tips about 4 inches from my toes.. now after a 30 minute stretch, and just being up for a while. I’ll be able to just about put my palms on the ground. (I can get my fingers on the ground, but not quite the heel pads). In the early nineties, I was prescribed a muscle relaxer by my doctor. I found if I took one during the middle of the night, I could wake up feeling fine.. in a way other people describe, loose and free feeling right out of bed. I did this for about 6 months, but I just couldn’t handle the other adverse side effects. He told me my body lacked some chemical production, and the relaxer just gave me what I needed. I didn’t need the side effects though.

Is there any dietary supplements, or foods that could be helpful to eat before bed or anything that could help make morning more pleasant?

anyones comments are welcome of course..

Phil

I have never seen Homer Kelley swing a golf club, .

Jeff.

Have a look at LBG gallery …
Happy to see that you compare yourself to HK :)
It has been pointed many times that what people feel in a golf swing may be very different from what they are actually doing (seems to be true even for Mr Hogan)
This is the reason why, in my opinion, images are a good complement to very theorical explanations.
Aniway, thank you for posting. Pure theoricians maybe a good help too.

Jeff,

I too love Homer’s work, even in all it’s cryptic scientific style. The problem with a lot of the books on golf, even Hogan’s stuff, it doesn’t really tell you HOW to do it. “The secrets in the dirt” and all that.

I don’t think there is anything more counter intuitive that the golf swing.
To understand the swing, you have a tremendous advantage if you can actually “feel” what goes on inside the body. If I could just feel for one second what Moe Norman feels, or Nicklaus for that matter, that would be better than a thousand intellectual reads..

Last night I spoke to a friend of mine I hadn’t talked to in 20 years, probably the smartest guy I have ever known in my life. He was a decent player, completely obsessed with the golf swing. Good enough to make the college team I played on and occasionally see a start.

To give you an idea how book smart this guy is.. he graduated top of his class in accounting.. worked for a big firm in LA. Decided he wanted to go into law so he went back to school and got a law degree,
then worked on corporate law cases in DC for 10 years. Then he decides he wants to help people more, so he goes back to school and gets a PHD in medicine. Then he goes back again and switches
disciplines in medicine. Every degree he was top of his class.

Now how can a guy like this, who has no physical defects, fail to figure out how to swing a golf club like a pro? One year he took off during all his scholastic endeavors and actually went to PGA Tour school.. practiced 12 hours a day for a year and missed by a bunch at first stage?

I never would have “got it” had I not experience what goes on in the body.

Ben Doyle told me once that the golf swing is “much like looking at a duck on the water. It looks effortless and smooth as it seems to glide across the lake, but under the water, it is working with a tremendous amount of effort.” People tell me all the time how smooth my swing looks, and I really have to laugh, because I’m nearly out of breath after making a swing. There is so much tension and effort and deliberate muscular application to do what I do.

There is a lot of invisible stuff going on in the swing that a casual observer will never know.

Hi Lag
Sorry to insist : what about your 24 components
A good challenge for every TGMrs on this site would be to post what they think to be your pattern and you correct. Fun game, good exercice and less work for you:)
Anybody interested?

lag

can you remember (even vaguely) what the pill was called? muscle relaxer is a very broad term and even then they are rarely prescribed, especially for ‘morning stiffness’. an anti-inflammatory would be more likely

how were you diagnosed with a lack of ‘chemical’? was it just clinical, were tests involved?

obviously if an actual problem was diagnosed then any general advice is going to be moot, although it sounds a little strange the way you describe it

like i said, lots of water is what you can do. not much else. you arent blessed with a circulatory system that can clean up your muscles in hibernation. many people arent. a few are. much like a successful golf swing!

like i said just lubricate yourself before you try touching your toes, all joints all directions, no stress, followed by an active ‘warm up’ like a brisk but gentle yoga/pilates session, jumping jacks or whatever. stretching is the enemy when you feel stiff

i can try to explain why if you want

you will get to that 30 min feeling in 5 minutes

10 1 A
10 2 B
10 3 B
10 4 D
10 5 A
10 6 A
10 7 C
10 8 not listed
10 9 not listed
10 10 C
10 11 D
10 12 C but somewhat varied
10 13 B customized
10 14 A
10 15 B
10 16 A
10 17 C
10 18 B but employed within a hitting protocol
10 19 A and B
10 20 E non auto version
10 21 B
10 22 B
10 23 B
10 24 D

here it is.. took about 10 minutes to go through it all again.

SoulmanZ

I had some tissue damage from a car accident in 90.
Muscles would really tense up after that, I think he had me on
impramine hydrochloride if I remember right. Not sure I got that spelling right, but that would be close enough.

I hated the side effects, but I wish my body felt like that 24/ 7

Never was diagnosed with any kind of unusual problems.

Play well off early morning tee times, or cold weather has always been much more difficult since. It was certainly a factor in my retirement, but far from the only one. I did win after my accident.

Wow that’s an obscene amount of technical data for something like a golf swing.

Anyone catch Tee it up with Tiger on the golf channel? I really enjoyed watching Anthony Kim hit balls… it amazed me though when asked how he hits a draw he stumbled… and he really couldn’t answer what he does. He just feels the club a certain way. Talk about a polar opposite to the technical side of the game. Must be nice.

A lot of guys don’t know intellectually what they do, there is nothing wrong with that until the day comes that what they do doesn’t work anymore. Things change, the body changes, and what worked last week or last year sometimes goes away.

If things go bad, what do you do? If your teacher is in Tasmania, but you’re on tour in Sweden, what do you do? Just miss cuts till you get home?

I like being the artist and the mechanic.

As far as i Know Imipramine HCL aka as TRofanil in Oz is an older Anitdepressant
Acts centrally ie at the Brain level
to restore certain chemicals dictating moods
but has many adverse effects like Drowiness
Dry Mouth
Constipation
and even Heart problems eg erratic rhythms

used in kids to avert nocturnal incontinence (urinary)
becos of it’s drying effects (ie anit-cholinergic effects)

no direct effects on Muscles
but certainly can boost your moods

and I loved the way you said :
People tell me all the time how smooth my swing looks, and I really have to laugh, because I'm nearly out of breath after making a swing. There is so much tension and effort and deliberate muscular application to do what I do.

kyc is right, although all TCAs (tricyclics – it is one of these) do have effects globally on nerve conduction. It is not the drug of choice but similar meds are used for chronic pain, especially if nerves are involved – like sciatica

i have never heard of it used for muscle stiffness like you describe, although the US isnt regulated in prescribing like australia is (meds can only be given for certain things)

if nothing else it would decrease the amount of nervous conduction, which could be useful if there was a spasmodic component, although i would have thought other meds would be more appropriate

all i would say is try increasing fluid intake, stay away from dehydrating drinks before bed and start your day with a warm up before your stretch, get rid of all the junk that builds up in your body. stretching first makes things worse, because of fluid shifts

if nothing is helping see your family doctor and get a CRP or ESR level done to see if there is some underlying inflammatory condition like arthritis or polymyalgia that may be involved, and can be treated

anyway, ill shut up now. this thread is about golf, dont wanna derail such an amazing body of information

Lag,
You are so right there are so many things going on in the golf swing which can’t be seen by eye or video doesn’t matter how many frames per second, the reason I say this is video can’t measure motion of rotational speeds, it’s 2d and misses loads of information.
It’s scary information when you screen players the information and what they are truly doing is amazing it open your eyes up.
Have you still git my email, send me an email and I touch base with our team and find out a diet for you which will supplement your diet.
I’ll give you two secrets, first one drink Apple sider vinegar and carrot juice, this will lubricate your muscles and bones.
If your leading a tournament to relax your nerves and calm your stomach, day before get a 2 litre GLASS jug, buy a really strong magnet and leave the water on the magnet for the day, then put in the fridge at the end of the day, drink some that night and drink next day first thing and all day, This will calm your stomach and calm your nerves under pressure.
after over 20 majors under our belts I think is a good indication it works.

Prot,
anthony kim is pure I’m glad you like his swing, our team has been working with Anthony for over a month ow improving his body motion.
He’s an amazing player with a lot of talent. I can tell you everything about his swing we screened him and have his data, But unfortunatley , under the patient confidentiality act, I can edloborate on his swing and what we have him working on in his swing or talk about his data. Or disclose what is truly going on in his golfswing.
When you have the correct body motion and a taught how to use your body motion correct any one can swing as good as Anthony.
There’s more to golf than mechanics and I hope oneday golfers start see a bigger picture that there is also body motion.
Most of the tour boys work on both and get screened by us they see the bigger picture would be nice one day if the average golfer would realise and then we would have more anthony kims out there

very interesting stuff indeed..the power of magnets !

Lag
Thank you very much for the pattern
I noticed that you have a very flat BS (10/6/A)
What is the feeling of your plane in the DS?
Do you feel , like Moe Norman did, that your club is “falling a bit under the plane” at the start of the DS?
TY

Beezneeds

You can understand Hogan's use of the word ’Äúsupination” if you look at the drawing on page 102.

He shows the left hand supinating during the release swivel phase of the downswing. Supination is due to left forearm rotation, which causes the back of the left hand – which faced the ball-target line at the delivery position to face the target at impact. Part of that 90 degree left hand rotation is due to external humeral rotation at the left shoulder socket joint and part of it is due to left forearm supination. By impact, the back of the flat left wrist faces the target. At impact, Hogan's left wrist was also slightly arched (palmar flexed) which he incorrectly referred to as part of the forearm supinatory action. He probably didn't realise that supination was a forearm movement and arching a wrist motion, and he used the term ’Äúsupination” to describe his hand movement ’Äúfeel” as a single motion.

In the drawing, you can see his left hand continuing to supinate post-impact. That is actually part of the finish swivel phase. Hogan grew up during the pre-video era and he probably didn't realise that there was a short followthrough phase where the left wrist didn't rotate independently but where it rotated at the same rpm as the left arm/forearm/clubshaft as a hinging action.

Pronation as the term used by Hogan in that photo on page 103 is wrong. It is dorsiflexion due to loss of clubhead lag and flipping. The palm would be facing groundwards because the left forearm supinatory action that normally occurs during the release swivel phase would be incomplete – therefore the dorsiflexed left wrist would be facing slightly groundwards. However, that same wrist position could occur if a golfer stopped supinating his forearm during the finish swivel phase and started pronating his hand instead – which would be a very strange movement.

Jeff.

Jeffman and all,

When Hogan was asked, “People don’t know what you mean by supination” he said “Let them look in the dictionary”. That sounds like Hogan under pressure to explain himself.

Gardiner Dickinson rate Hogans I.Q. at 180. Gardiner was a Psychology Major and a protege of Hogans.

I think Hogan knew exactly what he said, what was depicted and the reaction it would have on the not so bright.

If you are going to supinate like superman, where do you think the hand location is going to be?

I think he used this trick to draw attention to the area most misunderstood by the people he most wanted to help. The men who should break 80. The area, hand motion, the key to Rhythm and Lag.

Give the man some credit and go to work on the obvious, not the complex.

Do you feel , like Moe Norman did, that your club is ’Äúfalling a bit under the plane” at the start of the DS?

Yes, I do feel that when I am striking it best. Everday feels different.
I love to feel some of that float, and it is welcome, but only when I am really turning quickly post impact.

For the most part it feels very straight line both back and through.
My right elbow resting, then sliding back and forth on top of my impact plane angle gives me that feeling of simplicity I so desire..

I have no interest in any kind of Jim Furyk thing going on… to much practice needed for that stuff. I don’t hit golf balls, so I need it to feel simple. Quicker tempo backswings, with minimal hand travel, don’t give you much time or opportunity to be doing anything silly.

Jeff -

You’re still working with ‘your’ definition of the word.

You said: “Pronation as the term used by Hogan in that photo on page 103 is wrong. It is dorsiflexion due to loss of clubhead lag and flipping.”

Hogan is ‘wrong’? It’s his book…..).

What I’m saying is that he uses pronation and supination in two ways.

Primarily – he refers to a pronated hand as a hand ‘lying on its front’ (e.g. like a person with their head face down on the ground) and supination as the opposite (e.g. lying on your back).

Secondarily – he refers to actions that result in switches between these states as ‘pronation’ and ‘supination’.

How simple is that?

Beezneeds

You wrote regarding Hogan-:

“Primarily – he refers to a pronated hand as a hand ‘lying on its front' (e.g. like a person with their head face down on the ground) and supination as the opposite (e.g. lying on your back).”

It is a mistake to look at a hand’s position in space and conclude that it got there as result of a certain biomechanical process. The word “pronated” can be used as an adjective to describe the appearance of the hand in space. However, the word “pronate” is really a verb that describes the active process of a forearm pronatory movement.

On page 103 of his book, Hogan has the following photo.

In his book, Hogan states-” “By pronating his left wrist just before impact, a golfer expends his clubhead speed before impact.”

Hogan is using the word “pronating” as a verb, which implies that the golfer is actively using his left forearm muscles in a pronatory way to get his left hand into that semi-pronated position (left palm partially facing groundwards).

I think that Hogan is wrong in his causal explanation – connecting a hypothetical “cause” and an observed effect (left palm facing somehwat groundwards) . The left hand doesn’t get into that semi-pronatory position because the golfer actively uses his left forearm muscles in a pronatory manner. The left hand gets into that position because of other forces – secondary to flipping. Flipping is when the right wrists straightens thus passively bending (dorsiflexing) the left wrist, During this left wrist bending process, the left palm faces slightly groundwards because it was undergoing supination during the release swivel action and the left wrist is still incompletely supinated when the flipping process occurs.

Jeff.

kyc – you wrote-: “very interesting stuff indeed..the power of magnets !”

I would personally substitute the phrase “power of wishful imagination/thinking” for the phrase “power of magnets” in that causal explanation.

Jeff.

ha

i wasnt gonna say it

as to the above, i know i have seen people actively flipping their leading wrist (without intentionally straightening the back wrist) in what they have told me is ‘an attempt to get more power’. feels and looks like a backhand table tennis shot

it is possible this is how hogan experienced flipping. im sure people flip for more than one reason

Most people flip because they have overpowered and are now steering to make contact with the ball, or are really attempting the scoop to get the ball up rather than using the clubs loft.

The scoop flip makes zero sense in power terms as it at least destroys the long lever of the club and left arm (which produces lots of speed) for a lever now from wrist to clubhead. That is not good engineering for speed and now the clubface action becomes erratic too.

kyc – you wrote-: ’Äúvery interesting stuff indeed..the power of magnets !”

I would personally substitute the phrase ’Äúpower of wishful imagination/thinking” for the phrase ’Äúpower of magnets” in that causal explanation.

Jeff.

you mean the proverbial ‘placebo effect’.... ?

we know it can have up to 30 to 40 % or more therapeutic effects ….
perhaps

guru, i agree! wasnt promoting it, just saying ive seen it done

one thing has always bugged me though. mechanically it isnt bad engineering, as far as i can see. the long lever still exists and supplies radial acceleration to the entire apparatus. a further smaller axis of radial acceleration is a decent engineering principle to supply further speed. a fast bowler applies wrist flexion force, as does a baseball pitcher. multiple axis of radial acceleration

i guess in golf it is offest by less support and therefore compression, as well as making clubface control exponentially harder

but i would have thought technically someone with strong enough forearms and infinite control could do it and achieve more power. why is that wrong ‘mechanically’?

SoulmanZ: the long lever is destroyed as the FLW instead of rolling though is cut in half and the hands virtually stop to allow the club through. Horizontal motion vs Vertical Motion.

Hopefully Dart will fill you in while I am out:)

ha

i wasnt gonna say it

as to the above, i know i have seen people actively flipping their leading wrist (without intentionally straightening the back wrist) in what they have told me is ‘an attempt to get more power'. feels and looks like a backhand table tennis shot

it is possible this is how hogan experienced flipping. im sure people flip for more than one reason

Hi Soulman,

In TGM terms a left-handed back-handed table tennis shot doesn’t flip, it rolls into a horizontal hinge.

The only time I could see it flip is when the ball gets behind you and you have to scramble to hit it over your shoulder or around your body.

Not really a power thing.

I am new to this outstanding forum and must say this is the best of the bunch that I have visited on the Web. I am amazed at the level of insight about golf and the golf swing expressed by the posters here, especially Lag, Bio and Jeffman. The average golfer who visits here can really be exposed to solid information that can really make a difference in their game.

Jeff
The left hand doesn't get into that semi-pronatory position because the golfer actively uses his left forearm muscles in a pronatory manner.

Jeff, this is true for a pure CF swinger, but not for a Hitter.

SoulmanZ
a further smaller axis of radial acceleration is a decent engineering principle to supply further speed. a fast bowler applies wrist flexion force, as does a baseball pitcher. multiple axis of radial acceleration

Bingo!!

My right elbow looks like a swingers, but I hit because I have very strong fast wrists, exactly like a baseball pitcher who flings the wrist at the last second. The right elbow leading the way is always something I do and feel, just like a pitcher. The wrist snap at the end (in golf) has a dual multi purpose, function, one is power, the other is re routing the swing plane from the “out and away” as you would see with swingers, to the “down and left (tight around the body)” you see with good hitters.

The idea of flipping the clubface over through impact to increase power is a bad idea. The clubhead is travelling at 100+mph at impact and one cannot hope to time the flip. Secondly, the process of horizontal hinging ensures that the clubface continues to close while the ball remains in contact with the clubface, and this results in maximum ball compression. The process of horizontal hinging occurs at the level of the left shoulder socket and orbiting left arm and is easier to time-control and therefore to execute consistently. HK was very inisghtful when he identified this biomechanical phenomenon.

Golfers should never attempt to flip the hands through the impact zone as recommended by AJ Bonar.

AJ Bonars’ crazy idea

Jeff.

Jeff,

there is no flipping the clubface over here, full rolling, none of that.. I’m talking about moving into an angle hinge action, no roll.. The torso still needs to be accelerating, look how fast Hogan went with the hips, which moved that left shoulder joint #4 with great speed. The pivot still stays in front of the hands.. It feels more like a door hitting a jamb.
Don’t underestimate the power of the pivot, it’s appears slow compared to the clubhead, but the rpms are the same, it can still lead, even though it is hard to see with the naked eye. It’ power is there.

I know at some point you’ll get this Jeff, I was stuck here for a long time myself, until I started trying to hold the flex of the shaft “to and beyond” impact without taking a divot. This is the only way to do it if you are to utilize #2 and #3 in any significant manner.

This is real advanced ball striking stuff..

Guys like this screw up more golfers by writing articles like this.
All these attempts to negate the importance of the pivot will lead golfers single file off a cliff into a hopeless fall into oblivion.

He is confusing hitting and swinging, with automatic and non automatic releases.

Why don’t golfers get better? This is why.

lagpressure

I love your enthusiasm and I admire your golf swing skills. However, I unfortunately cannot understand any of your explicatory posts. I need very detailed explanations that describe sequential events with precise attention to minute details and that provide causal explanations using common TGM terminology. When you write about PA#5 (a non-TGM PA term) and reactivating PA#4 post-impact, my eyes glaze over. I can only consider your ideas seriously if they are expressed with enough explicatory detail to satisfy my need for a much clearer understanding of what “new” ideas you are actually trying to convey.

Jeff.

Jeff you have to think visually to get lags posts. Others can get the motional ideas conveyed. They may not be in TGMese but you need to think along different lines to arrive into the latter.

The lack of understanding is not in Lags words, its the interpretation of them that is causing you grief. Not everyone speaks like you want them too.

The idea of flipping the clubface over through impact to increase power is a bad idea. The clubhead is travelling at 100+mph at impact and one cannot hope to time the flip. Secondly, the process of horizontal hinging ensures that the clubface continues to close while the ball remains in contact with the clubface, and this results in maximum ball compression. The process of horizontal hinging occurs at the level of the left shoulder socket and orbiting left arm and is easier to time-control and therefore to execute consistently. HK was very inisghtful when he identified this biomechanical phenomenon.

Golfers should never attempt to flip the hands through the impact zone as recommended by AJ Bonar.

AJ Bonars' crazy idea

Jeff.

Jeffman,

You can call me crazy too. There are only two things you have to master – uncocking the club and rolling it. Homer Kelley.

The No.1 fault is steering – that is not rolling.

Hand motion is the key to rhythm and what a club does naturally if flung or pushed through certain planes. The hinge motion comes from the shoulder but the release swivel does not.

The whole trick is to monitor the hands.

Learn manually then automatically

Are you sure AJ Bonar’s’ idea is crazy. If you are, let me know because it is the major thrust of my teaching.

Paul S

I am a very visual thinker. I have a great capacity to mentally visualize three-dimensional movements. However, I need very detailed written descriptions to understand “new” concepts.

How do you know that other forum members can accurately get the motional ideas conveyed? The only way I would know is if they can express their accurate understanding in words (written descriptions). Can you accurately answer all the questions I posed in my thread (on my review paper) about lagpressure’s previous comments?

Jeff.

The concept is not “new.”

I also believe that most forum readers may identify words with some of their own actions and dig from there. Accurately describing something is harder than showing it in motion that is for sure.

Getting the concept (lets call it big picture) is important. The devil in the details often loses readers (and their interest) in print. As you rightly put your level of detail is for a small niche of readers rather than the weekend warriors out there.

Lag is happy to try to accurately answer questions in his thread as long as he can in his own words….which means us having to think outside of some definitions that we take for granted. Heck that is nothing new in the golf world. I remember when you first looking into TGM and had to learn to use the lingo. Not so hard now but it means you have to remember that others, even players who have been taught by TGM coaches, may not use the same lingo. They just ‘do it.’ And well.

Paul H

I am convinced that AJ Bonar’s ideas are crazy. He is recommending an active crossover hand release action through the impact zone at the level of the wrists.

HK only describes a release swivel action and a hinging action occurring in the vicinity of the impact zone. The release swivel action is due to left forearm supinatory movements (release of PA#3) and a certain degree of left humeral external rotation at left shoulder socket level. There are no active wrist movements during a release swivel action. Hinging actions occur at the level of the left shoulder socket and there are no independent wrist-level actions. HK states that the hands are clamps that hold onto the grip, and they should not move actively (through wrist motions) when traveling through the impact zone. Left wrist uncocking in a swinger’s action is passive and it occurs pre-impact due to the CF-induced release action. The left wrist should already be uncocked (level) by the time it reaches impact.

The hands obviously roll-over as they pass through the impact zone – but not due to active wrist actions.

Jeff.

Guys like this screw up more golfers by writing articles like this.
All these attempts to negate the importance of the pivot will lead golfers single file off a cliff into a hopeless fall into oblivion.

He is confusing hitting and swinging, with automatic and non automatic releases.

Why don't golfers get better? This is why.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Lag,

People can’t do what he is saying without a good pivot.

A Flat Left Wrist take tremendous effort from the legs and guts no matter how much it rolls.

You just have to know at what rate to teach it.

Educated hands force the pivot to behave in certain ways.

I know hand manipulation gets up a good players nose but you can’t just hope they get it. They would never get through startdown trying to do it with the pivot.

I would not go so much from bent to arched but 99% are trying to do the opposite.

Paul H

I am convinced that AJ Bonar's ideas are crazy. He is recommending an active crossover hand release action through the impact zone at the level of the wrists.

HK only describes a release swivel action and a hinging action occurring in the vicinity of the impact zone. The release swivel action is due to left forearm supinatory movements (release of PA#3) and a certain degree of left humeral external rotation at left shoulder socket level. There are no active wrist movements during a release swivel action. Hinging actions occur at the level of the left shoulder socket and there are no independent wrist-level actions. HK states that the hands are clamps that hold onto the grip, and they should not move actively (through wrist motions) when traveling through the impact zone. Left wrist uncocking in a swinger's action is passive and it occurs pre-impact due to the CF-induced release action. The left wrist should already be uncocked (level) by the time it reaches impact.

Jeff.

Jeffman,

But how does one learn to do that? By hand manipulation.

Do you think people are born with it or some magic pivot move will cause it.

Once the hands know what their orbit, action and acceleration rate are, then the pivot can do its work with confidence.

Read Ch. 12-1-2-3. Again and again and again. Then call the teaching pros crazy.

I think you speak from the point of view of someone who could always do it and forgot or does not know how they learned.

Paul H

I have no problem with the idea of hand manipulation through the impact zone via forearm/arm forces. However, many golfers wrongly use their wrists – note that image 3 below shows a bent left wrist and straightened (palmar flexed) right wrist.

Jeff.

Left wrist is arched and rolled in #3. Right wrist is still Bent.

The problem with these photos is they are obviously not taken in action in real time action. Look at his hips, they are not even cleared out, the hands are way past the hips, rolling and arched.. The pivot has to be leading.. Golfers read stuff like this, try to copy these static positions and it’s a train going off a cliff…

A shockingly horrible visual.

I have no problem with the full roll duel horizontal hinge stuff for a “true blue CF swinger” that can do it..

Right from the horses mouth:
A.J. Bonar says “it lets you do what instinctively feels right ’Äî swing with your hands instead of your body”

This is crap..

Any golf coach that encourages downplaying the importance of the pivot or teaching just a lazy arms and hands swing is a true false prophet.

Paul S

I can see why you see an arched left wrist and bent right wrist.

However, the photo shows an active hand turn in the immediate post-impact zone.

You can see the club rotate about 30 degrees from photo 2 to photo 3. And, a beginner golfer sees arrows pointing at wrist level thus thinking that the roll-over is occurring at wrist level.

What does a beginner golfer imagine is happening (from a biomechanical perspective) in that photo (which AJ Bonar didn’t describe in detail on his website)?

I think that a beginner golfer imagines that the “expert” golfer is performing a version of what Nick Bradley described in his book as a puck release. Here is his photo from his book.

Note the straightening right wrist and the roll-over of the right hand over the left hand. Note the slightly bent left wrist.

I think that beginner golfers would get an impression that all these roll-over hand actions should occur through the impact zone. However, the 180 degrees roll-over of the flat left wrist/hand occurs gradually from the delivery position to the 4th parallel position. During the impact zone and early followthrough zone, the left wrist remains flat and the right wrist remains bent and there is no “apparent” roll over (right wrist pronating and left wrist supinating) – see next photo of Tiger Woods’ hand action through impact.

Note how gradual the hand roll-over action is occurring, and it is not due to any actions at wrist level.

Jeff.

The 3 stills vs the 4 stills are different actions. The initial 4 sum show a scoop. The first 3 are attempting to show a roll ( not very successfully).

I sure as heck hope that readers in here know the difference between a solid flying wedge vs a scoop shot look by now:) Tigers action is a great rolling flying wedge.

Jeff,

Read 6-C-2-A

Homer titles this “The Secret”

“If the pressure point pressure that produced the initial shaft flex is MAINTAINED it will maintain the flex also. (Now think Drive Loading)

If the pivot moves the right shoulder at the same speed as the power package, the accumulators will not be released until the right arm CAN straighten (Hogan couldn’t straighten his right arm because his right shoulder speed was putting so much pressure on the power package), . Even then the clubhead lag is still maintained, it has NO release point” (holding the flex of the shaft)

This is the genius of Hogan. He often maintained a bent right arm and frozen right wrist post impact for this very reason. He alway saved something so he could accelerate without having a release point until long after impact.

Hogan was the best because he knew how to get COOOOMMMMMPPPPREEESSSIIOON doing what Homer explains here so eloquently ….

Look how much Hogan’s shoulders have rotated, and how little his hands have traveled between these two photos. His hands are still ahead of the clubhead.. that means post impact lag pressure still sustained.

If your a good enough golfer to even attempt to get the club where Hogan has it in the first photo, and then get it to where he has it in the second photo, you’ll know that the only way to do this is to have
ripping active fast hands, and the feeling of needing three right arms.

Homer’s little talk about the secret in 6 C 2 A never mentions the left shoulder, instead he focuses on the right shoulder.. Homer said right shoulder because he knew that the secret was in the right side not the left..

Right shoulder dropping down plane – either for swinger or hitter.

guru, and anyone else for this matter, aren’t most beginners putting themselves on the backburner straight away?

Most beginners start with a very steep swing, and hit fade to cuts. They steer the ball time and time again, and flip when they try to hit a draw.

Then when they get a lesson from people that actually have an idea about the golf swing, they continue to steer and flip through impact.
So it’s like a death circle of golf.
Now.. when i see that 3 photos shows the taylormade glove man.. i understand why half the golfers in this world go to the shitter.

I apologize jeffman, because i like it how you love to understand golf. I am excatly the same. I stand quiet most of the time, to try and gain a better experience, and only ask if i don’t understand, rather than continually cause banter between different parties.

I know jeff that you mean well. But i think golf is like a religion. You can believe the priests (like guru, dart etc), but most don’t believe a converter.

It’s why so many give the game up in frustration.

I think we’ve all contemplated giving this game the boot at least 1 time in our life haha

Jeff,

2 E in Homer’s book:

“Zero Deceleration is what would give maximum ball speed for any and all approach speeds. Speed (Centrifugal Pull) and Prestress (Acceleration) stiffen the Clubshaft for consistent (min to max) resistance to impact deceleration.”

It’s quite or should be obvious that given initial impact velocity being equal between two golf balls being struck, the one that is bringing in a prestressed shaft via acceleration is going to compress the golf ball better than one that is only maintaining velocity at zero acceleration.

Chew some on 10-19-A

“Drive loading, right arm thrust striving to accelerate radially a pre stressed bent clubshaft from a SLOW start down THROUGH impact.”

Again Homer is talking about a pre stressed shaft that can only be accomplished successfully by a hitter. In his “The Secret” he only talks about the right shoulder moving at the same speed as the power package to maintain lag on the pressure points.. Even better, do as Hogan did and actually accelerate the right shoulder, then you move release of the clubshaft post impact. This can only be done with an angle hinge, because the clubface will resist any turning or rotating if it’s being pinned to a pre stressed shaft.

This is why I switched to hitting.

Goodbye beko… errr tai

LP
From your posts I gather under Morad ( Mac O’Grady) that a CF release is for swinging and a CP release is used for hitting??

Btw you are correct about Lynn Blake and Jeff Ritter they are both absolutely no where in the same galaxy as Hogan at impact ..as usual Jeff has NFI

To the contrary. Jeff has lots of ideas. They just require redirection.

In the late 1980’s, can’t remember which year I gained Moe Norman’s trust enough to be able to film him. At the time he didn’t like being filmed, but after much persuasion, and a lot of time hanging out with him he invited me to tape him at Red Deer CC in Alberta. I had one of the best video cameras a Sony CCDV101 that shot at 10,000 shutter frames per second. I filmed a clinic where Moe probably hit a least 100 balls maybe more. It’s about an hour of Moe just piping one ball after another to a stunned audience.

20 years later and having moved 5 times I had lost track of the tape.
About 6 months ago I uncovered it after looking through boxes and boxes of stored stuff, I finally found it. When I played it back, my camera no longer worked. I bought another obsolete player to try to take a look. This time, it was breaking up, snowy, I thought for sure the tape had lost it’s quality or playability, and was useless. There has never been a copy made.

Last night I borrowed another machine, and this time it played.
I dumped it into a DVD recorder with an S video cable and maximum quality transfer, and this time it worked!

I just can’t say how happy I am to have this priceless piece of tape now on a high quality DVD.

You can see everything, the compression of the ball, the shaft flex pre and post impact, it’s all there, the grooves on the clubface at impact. He talks about all kinds of things, and everything he says is just spot on.

I suspect it is some of the best footage of the legend ever shot.
He didn’t go mainstream in the States till the mid 90’s with Natural Golf and all that stuff. Age was taking it’s toll by then, and what I have is a much younger version that really compressed the ball more than anything I have seen with my own eyes.

He never once loses shaft flex pre impact. Not once.
Not even with a Driver. Very inspiring.

SHOW US PLEASE!!!!!!

Lag,
If that tape is as priceless as you describe, you should take it to a video lab and have it transferred with the right equipment. It shouldn’t cost much but the results will be worth it.

Lag and Jeff,

Bonar is teaching in a dramatic way what the AVERAGE player needs to know most. Without rotation any super stressing of the shaft is just crap.

Is he not saying much the same as Hogan regarding Supination.

I get 1 in a thousand pupils who do not need heavy work in this area and it can take years to make permanent.

Steering is hard wired into their heads. It causes a Bent Left Wrist.
Until this is corrected, “more information is just more confusion”.

Firing bodies is fine for hookers but tell a slicer that and he is in double trouble. It will add 30 yds to his slice, then he starts quitting, just what you don’t want.

I prefer hitting mostly but I am sure I heard Homer say learn to swing the hands and not the clubhead.

Lag, I think you protest too much on swingers. You maybe had a bad time with one once.

Swingers can swing as hard and fast as their body can move. I don’t know where you got the idea they have lazy hands and arms, unless it is Greg Mc H.

What eludes me is why we even waste our lives talking about hogan for, He is a hero of mine but really. I don’t think in my life time I will ever see anyone out there able to repeat hogans swing or teach hogans swing, you would have to be bloody dreaming.
And listen to a moron like Jeff who can’t even break 100 eludes me even more. I won’t listen to anyone who can’t beat me in a game of golf or at least played in their day.
At the end of the day they truely know who to apply the swing mechanics themselves cause they can do it.

How about get back to the topic which was learning off a great player who’s know TGM better than most of us and acutally went out on tour and did it successfully for years.
And Jeff piss off and go back to the hole you crawled out from your destroying another thread with your theory bullshit, which we don’t give a dam, your trying to re invent the wheel, which i don’t care about ,how about focusing on creating drills and answer to improve players then wasting our lives on theories, this isn’t going to help people play better golf.

I tell you now you don’t know the head from your arse if you did you could break a 100. Your so far off the truth it’s beyond on the joke. The crap you come up with in unbelievable about how tour players swing, HOW DO I KNOW, WHILST YOU ARE TALKING VERBAL DIREAH, WE SCREEN MOST OF THE TOUR PLAYERS AND REBUILD THEIR SWINGS , YOUR SO FAR OFF THE MONEY JEFF IT’S A JOKE.
Really pisses me off for some unknown reason Golf is the only profession where everyone is an exbert, maybe this is why the average is 100 to many exberts and know alls and not enough players.
Shit next everyone will be telling me how to be a bloody biomedical engineer of human body motion.

What make me laugh is people listen to morons like jeff and he argues against legends like Lagpressure and Dart and he argues with me,The company I’m with and our team started biomechanics in sports and brought it to the masses, we also provide clinical evaluations to Doctors, Physios and Personal Trainers, we tell them how fix their patients with injuries or prone to potential injuries,We also train them in these area as well, we also do all sports.We have worked with the best athletes in the world in most sports, we screen the athlete then teach them how to build their body for their sports, how to look after themselves and teach them how to improve their body motion, We use biomechanics to find out the problem then give a cure, And Jeff a moron argues with us.
I wish everyone would wake up and when is admin going to ban him, he has no use but only causes conflict, instead of having a learning enviroment to learn to play better golf. Wake Up people want cures not answers

Dart -

That Bonar move is exactly what I’m talking about – I hit some phenomenal shots (for me) doing something like this!

Feels effortless, a magic move – a ‘reverse flip’ (aka the opposite of bad).

The right hand has only got good places to go, and the left is both moving towards the target but ‘powering’ towards the ball.

I think it’s exactly what Hogan wrote about in ‘Five Lessons’ – and going back to the pictures in that book, they all have that supinated look deep into the downswing.

Lag – how sure are you that you are not overdoing your own body sensations (esp. the physical effort side) – are you sure it’s the same for all other people?

Hogan describes his own golf swing as a physical pleasure – and does not couch it as being a difficult move to execute.

Lag you are spot on in your explanation of Hogan;s move through impact, I call that a “body thrust” release with SuperConnected upper arms to chest, the ultimate in radial acceleration. I had a “lesson” in 1977 at Pebble Beach during the PGA champioship from Tom Weiskopf. He was practicing on the range and I asked him what his best golf swing lesson was. He told me that Mr. Hogan gave him his “secret” a few years earlier. From the Halfway down position or 3rd parallel as Lag says, Hogan told Tom to imagine a steel rod connecting the heel of his right hand and his right knee so that through impact, the two move together at the same speed as a unit. He also said to imagine that the upper right arm is glued to the chest and the elbow to the right hip. They too are a unit and move at the same speed through impact. I tried it on the range the next day and hit by far the best shots of my career, tons of compression and three clubs longer on average with a lower ball flight. Clubhead, hands, right shoulder, right hip, right knee all moving at same RPM speed.

Mr. Hogan gave Weiskopf his ’Äúsecret” a few years earlier. From the Halfway down position or 3rd parallel as Lag says, Hogan told Tom to imagine a steel rod connecting the heel of his right hand and his right knee so that through impact, the two move together at the same speed as a unit. He also said to imagine that the upper right arm is glued to the chest and the elbow to the right hip. They too are a unit and move at the same speed through impact.

This is not only what Hogan says, this is what Hogan does, and I can assure you as a human guinea pig of TGM lab experiments, I apply this concept in my own golf swing, and it works. This sensation is so counter intuitive to most golfers, teachers, theorists, but Homer was ALL OVER IT.. but you have to read a little between the lines as I described it a couple of posts ago. No doubt this is advanced ball striking stuff..

My job as a tour player was to figure out what’s the best way to strike a golf ball, to gain an advantage over other players, whether it be off the tee or on the greens. Being a mediocre ball striker, having to put enormous pressure upon my short game had little interest to me. It all needed to be world class. Norman, Faldo, Woosnam, Senior, O Grady, these guys were great ball strikers, and I was fortunate enough to get to compete against them at the peak of their careers and put my game right up against theirs. I never felt I had much natural talent for golf. Massive TGM training, tons of drills, lots of introspective study, and analyzing the greats of the past, Hogan, Snead, Trevino, Nicklaus, Watson etc.., this is why and how I got as close as I did. I doubt I have anymore talent than anyone here unless you are suffering from some obvious physical handicap. I figured out how to strike it by endless amounts of experimentation, trial and error, high speed video, and most importantly watching ball flight.

By the way, I was there at Pebble in 77 when Lanny Watkins won.

Hogan describes his own golf swing as a physical pleasure – and does not couch it as being a difficult move to execute.

Yes, of course, even my swing feels like a pleasure, but certainly not without effort. Runners often talk about a “runners” high.. Hogan didn’t say it was effortless, he would never say that unless he had a few too many scotches.

My swing is not difficult to execute at all… in fact I have done everything I can to eliminate all unnecessary moving parts to allow this ease of execution to be experienced..

It’s easy once you know how to do it.. just like a classical musician playing Stravinsky. It’s hard to learn but once you learn it’s easy.

Over doing body sensations? Never. Could I ever “over do” ball compression? Never. Have too much lag pressure? Never.
Hit it too pure? never.

All the greats have great body and pivot action. Hogan was the only guy who looked like he was overdoing it..! And the results?

If you want to be an excellent ball striker, you have to engage the body, the pivot the torso in a huge way. I have never seen an decent ball striker just slapping the ball with their arms and hands only. The golf swing just doesn’t work that way.

Yeah, Lag – Lanny played great that week. I just want to say that your descriptions on this thread of what I consider to be the ideal way to hit a golf ball are really excellent and show your lifetime of working through all of the illusions, myths, mis-conceptions and just terribly wrong information. I teach all of my students this method but I also know that it is an un-attainable ideal for most of them, ie I know that most won’t be able to actually do this move anywhere near as pure as Hogan – I know I certainly don’t! – but that the training process is a striving to evolve a swing that is always moving toward that Ideal.

Some caveats though- you do need to be in good shape physically to swing like this, with flexible muscles in the hips and lower back and a really strong Core that can “fire” at a pretty high rate of speed. Also – strong legs and lower back muscles since it is so essential to stay in your forward spine angle through impact for this to work. Actually Hogan increased his spine angle by about one inch as does Tiger. Weak postural support muscles cause a standing up compensation move for most golfers.

And – for this move to be learned effectively, the student has to have really evolved enough in their skill and understanding to have pretty much eliminated the Hit Impulse in all of it’s many forms, ie trying to use the upper arm muscles in a sideways across the chest “floppy” motion as a source of power and of course Throwaway from the right arm angle and wrist angles early release as well.

The problem in a nutshell for average players especially is that it looks like it’s an independent arm swing that hits the ball, with some support from the pivot. I mean literally “looks like” ie its an optical illusion I call the Arm Swing Illusion. As long as that Illusion is still hard-wired into your neural networks or Swing Map, the tendency to release early and lose your lag will be a constant threat.

The feel is of the “no release” release that Homer talked about. Or – its just Human Nature to want to release early – for all kinds of reasons. So we need to “intend” and to “feel like” we are hitting the ball at impact with the exact body and club allignments of 3rd parallel position There is a neurological time delay that partially explains why this is so. Or you could also intend to take your impact position to the 4th parrallel – works either way.

Dart -

That Bonar move is exactly what I'm talking about – I hit some phenomenal shots (for me) doing something like this!

Feels effortless, a magic move – a ‘reverse flip' (aka the opposite of bad).

The right hand has only got good places to go, and the left is both moving towards the target but ‘powering' towards the ball.

I think it's exactly what Hogan wrote about in ‘Five Lessons' – and going back to the pictures in that book, they all have that supinated look deep into the downswing.

Lag – how sure are you that you are not overdoing your own body sensations (esp. the physical effort side) – are you sure it's the same for all other people?

Hogan describes his own golf swing as a physical pleasure – and does not couch it as being a difficult move to execute.

Beezneeds,

Thank you. I thought I was in the wrong dimension for a while.

I love what Lag is saying and it is the other end of the ability scale. Great when your alignments are close to correct.

What my customers want to know is how Jack Chopper got from 95 to 79.

They mostly can do high pressure through the ball, it is the only way they know to generate power. The major generators of power are the angles between the shoulders and shaft. Look at Lags avatar. Without them he hits it 50 yds

What is the one thing that kills power? Steering.

What is the answer? Flat Left Wrist.

What is the dominant sensation initially? More roll.

Do you mind if I use ‘reverse flip’. Priceless.

Thanks again.

The feel is of the ’Äúno release” release that Homer talked about. Or – its just Human Nature to want to release early – for all kinds of reasons. So we need to ’Äúintend” and to ’Äúfeel like” we are hitting the ball at impact with the exact body and club alignments of 3rd parallel position There is a neurological time delay that partially explains why this is so. Or you could also intend to take your impact position to the 4th parallel – works either way.

BPGS1,

That early release is not so much Human Nature as an attempt to substitute wrist action for hand motion.

There are good release procedures that can feel like throwaway.

Lets not forget that swings don’t start from tour players level.

Teaching body, arms and hands has to be in balance.

Excellent points, Dart. You do need all three body parts each trained independently as to their proper role and then of course the really hard part that takes a lot of practice – the blending or coordination aspect. My take on all of this is that I see the average golfers ONLY using their arms, elbows or wrists to apply power with little or no pivot. That to me is Problem Number One.

I teach them to hit the ball with their Pivot basically. That comes first in terms of how Force is generated in the physical realm, ie from the ground up and from the inside out. You can steer just as easily by Pivot Stalling through impact as you can with your upper arms, wrists or forearms blocking the release. I almost never have a student come to me who is pivoting fast enough through impact into the Finish. Almost everyone is Stalling to some degree. And Pivot stall creates a bent left wrist from momentum leaking from the body into the wrist.

The main reason average golfers steer is because they are confusing the line of flight of the ball with the line of flight of the clubhead, we call that the Straight Clubhead Path Illusion. The Square Clubface Illusion causes the kind of steering I think you mention or a blocked forerarm roll release. Most golfers think the face stays square during release, they are terrified it will go way left if they let the natural forearm roll happen. Of course its only natural if your wrist muscles are soft to begin with, usually a too tight grip pressure problem for these kind of golfers. We fix the Path problem first, then the Face although I know many teachers have great success doing that in reverse order.

I see the average golfer ONLY using their arms, elbows or wrists to apply power with little or no pivot. That to me is Problem Number One.

Bingo

I teach them to hit the ball with their Pivot basically.

Bingo

That comes first in terms of how Force is generated in the physical realm,

Bingo

From the ground up and from the inside out.

The main reason average golfers steer is because they are confusing the line of flight of the ball with the line of flight of the clubhead

Bingo Bingo!

I almost never have a student come to me who is pivoting fast enough through impact into the Finish.

Bingo Jackpot Bingo Jackpot Bingo Jackpot Bingo Jackpot!!

would Love to see that Moe Norman’s Clip….

do you think it will go commercial ?

Bingo bingo Mac says you are wrong and cf is for hitting and cp is for swinging

Both hitters and swingers experience both… Centrifugal and Centripetal forces.

It’s the difference between radial acceleration, and longitudinal acceleration that differentiates the two.

BPGS1

What are the drills you prescribe for your students to firstly practise the correct pivot and and then continue to feel that pivot. I believe I have never practised it or even know what I should be feeling.
Some of the things you have said about the swing when not using the pivot correctly is what I’m sur e I’m doing.
Cheers.

Both hitters and swingers experience both… Centrifugal and Centripetal forces.

It's the difference between radial acceleration, and longitudinal acceleration that differentiates the two.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

nope the difference is still some left wrist cock left on the table at impact for a cp release/swinging and a fast recock after

Slinger,

For clarity can you please explain what you mean by CP and CF?
I want to make sure we are speaking the same language..

Well seems scientists dont even believe in CF yet people on golf forums seem to think it exists ..quite amusing and good for a laugh

cp release is term used for swinging ( more left with left elbow supinated )
cf release is term used for hitting ( more right with left elbow pronated)

go figure ..sorta different to the Mac stuff you write about

Should I be assuming CF stands for centrifugal force, while CP is centripetal?

As far as discussion on this forum I remember this being defined 40 pages or so ago, but to re clarify, CF refers to an object moving away from a rotating center, while CP refers to the opposite, (towards)

I get the elbow references, but CP vs CF release stuff I’m not sure I am clear on what you are saying..

CP release?

Any directional change will create a centripetal condition whether hitting or swinging. More with drag loading, but drive loading will create some also. I don’t know how you could swing a club without some amount of inward clubshaft compression.

That compression is released by the forces rotation, inertia, angular momentum etc, but the result is a CF action of the shaft moving away from the center.

How we arrive at that CF differs between drive and drag, and what we do with it differs from hitters to swingers..

Again I am not sure I understand what you mean by CP release.
Is that pre, during or post impact?

KycGolfer,

I don’t have any plans to release the Moe tape commercially. As of now, it’s only open for viewing in my living-room. I just don’t see it needing to be all over Youtube. I think Moe letting me tape him, was a non verbal gift from him to me.. it felt personal, and I think he sensed my intent for personal study and knowledge and not any kind of exploitation. Moe was living out of his car back then literally.

Maybe I’ll show it at a midnight movie house in Berkeley some night! lol

It’s a good reason to find your way to SF for a round of golf at the Mare and a view of the DVD that evening..

It’s something very very special..

heya

im sure it is just me misunderstanding the way things are said, but quick question

you are all saying golfers should swing from the pivot. im a hitter (currently) and when i tried this my pivot was pulling my left shoulder, resulting in a pulling (swinging) type feel. i couldnt work out a way to power the swing with the pivot using a hitting stroke

i could intellectually conceptualise using the pivot to push the right arm if it was fully in front of the turn, but i just couldnt do that

any suggestions?

I see the average golfer ONLY using their arms, elbows or wrists to apply power with little or no pivot. That to me is Problem Number One.

Bingo

I teach them to hit the ball with their Pivot basically.

Bingo

That comes first in terms of how Force is generated in the physical realm,

Bingo

From the ground up and from the inside out.

The main reason average golfers steer is because they are confusing the line of flight of the ball with the line of flight of the clubhead

Bingo Bingo!

I almost never have a student come to me who is pivoting fast enough through impact into the Finish.

Bingo Jackpot Bingo Jackpot Bingo Jackpot Bingo Jackpot!!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Lag,

Sorry, there is no Jackpot and no Bingo.

The only reason the average golfer steers is because he confuses the line of flight of the ball with the line of flight of the clubhead.

What do you do about that? Just tell him?

How long does it take to educate him to the stage where he can do any different?

What chance of pivot rhythm does he have with steering locked in his brain?

Is there a way to pivot with steering?

Tell us how he gets around steering.

Then we can have pivot rhythm with total motion rhythm.

Bingo Jackpot.

BPGS1,

I knew a man called Rene Le Blanc who taught all three and didn’t tell them how to swing.

He said, lets loosen up. Hold the club infront of your face and turn shoulder out and shoulder in. Now loosen up you arms. Swing over each shoulder till you feel free. Then he would stand in front and say, swing towards me, then he stepped to the right and said swing towards me and the same on the left hand side with no explanation.

Then he would invite them to hit shots till they looked up in surprise then he gave then a high five in acknowledgement to the applause of those standing around.

When I pushed him he said all he did was give then a picture. When they were happy he made a big point of the acknowledgment which seemed to cement the new ability in their brain.

He called it NLP. Seemed like common sense to me.

He gave them Lag Rhythm hand motion, shaft control and a good time.

They loved him and didn’t know why.

Should I be assuming CF stands for centrifugal force, while CP is centripetal?

As far as discussion on this forum I remember this being defined 40 pages or so ago, but to re clarify, CF refers to an object moving away from a rotating center, while CP refers to the opposite, (towards)

I get the elbow references, but CP vs CF release stuff I'm not sure I am clear on what you are saying..

CP release?

Any directional change will create a centripetal condition whether hitting or swinging. More with drag loading, but drive loading will create some also. I don't know how you could swing a club without some amount of inward clubshaft compression.

That compression is released by the forces rotation, inertia, angular momentum etc, but the result is a CF action of the shaft moving away from the center.

How we arrive at that CF differs between drive and drag, and what we do with it differs from hitters to swingers..

Again I am not sure I understand what you mean by CP release.
Is that pre, during or post impact?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

CF is bs ..does not exist
cp release/cf release are morad terms ( mac ogrady)..directional terms..

CF as per the definition in the yellow book does and its good enough for 99% of the population to understand what is going on, so lets not go down that path (again).

Cannot say about MORAD as I honestly do not know as I have not been there.

BPGS1

He also said to imagine that the upper right arm is glued to the chest and the elbow to the right hip. They too are a unit and move at the same speed through impact.

I remembered seeing an image in Joe Dante’s 1962 book called the Strap Treatment…Maybe this drill was popular back then or maybe Mr. Hogan gleaned something from Joe Dante…

Sorry for the slight skewage

Lagpressure

You entire theory of drive loading the club through impact with shaft flex is based on the belief that the increased thrust force will increase ball flight distance for a given amount of clubhead speed. However, the scientific evidence suggests that thrust force (increased mass behind the shaft) has no effect on ball speed for a given level of clubhead speed.

Heavy hit

Jeff.

Dart: No problem Dart – you’ve definitely earned it! As I said, I think I’ve finally got the left hand thing…..lightbulb time all over the place. You’re a legend!

Everyone: Let’s think about some practical questions and see if we can’t reconcile some of this stuff.

First, let’s allow that there are good hand actions, and there are bad hand actions – same goes for the pivot. However, you can – Bio? – play scratch golf with a bad pivot. Can you do so with hacker flippy hands?

The question is, “how does the hand action relate to the pivot?”

Can the pivot help the hands if they are not cocked – loaded – correctly? I suspect not – instead, I suspect that the power in the pivot will end up falling off the end of the golf club (if this makes sense).

One thing I did find was that a better hand action (in my opinion) – and one based on the Bonar/Dart ideas I’d talked about earlier -actually made my pivot feel much less connected to my body, even though I hit my drives an absolute country mile when I played 9 on Saturday.

My hands got so much quicker and more natural, but I found it very hard to get that feeling that my body was even in the shot.

Maybe this is some of what you’re talking about Lag?

PS: I also hooked the sh*t out of the ball for a goodly part of the day! And struggled to do much of anything good with my irons – again with the hook not helping.

Dart – Would I be right in saying that the later I perform my ‘reverse flip’, the less likely this (hooking) is to happen.

Also – how (if at all) does the move I’m on about relate to the short game?

Finally, on Hogan and the right/left side: Hogan makes it very clear that figuring out the left arm and wrist action made him the golfer he became in the 1985 edition of ‘Five Lessons’ (interview with Nick Seitz at the beginning), and devotes many significant passages in that book to the left arm and hand.

Could it be that he wanted all those extra right hands so he could keep up with his unbelievably quick and effective left!?

Beezneeds – you wrote-: “My hands got so much quicker and more natural, but I found it very hard to get that feeling that my body was even in the shot.

---

I also hooked the sh*t out of the ball for a goodly part of the day! And struggled to do much of anything good with my irons – again with the hook not helping.”

I think that it proves my point about using “active hands” with active hand/wrist action through the impact zone where the golfer employs a roll-over hand action that is due to active wrists/hands that are disconnected from the body. You were probably hooking due to flipping and/or inconsistent clubface closure secondary to an active wrist-induced roll over action of the hands.

I think that the “correct” approach is passive wrist/hands with all hand rotation being due to the arms/forearms rotating in synchrony with the rotating body. The 180 degree rotation of the clubface between the 3rd and 4th parallels should be due to rotation at the level of the left forearm (supination) and left arm (external rotation of the left humerus) combined with a rotary movement of the left shoulder socket in space due to a continuing pivot action through impact that keeps the arms always in front of the rotating torso.

Jeff.

BPGS1

What are the drills you prescribe for your students to firstly practise the correct pivot and and then continue to feel that pivot. I believe I have never practised it or even know what I should be feeling.
Some of the things you have said about the swing when not using the pivot correctly is what I'm sur e I'm doing.
Cheers.

“The lower a CEO’s handicap, the worse the company performs on the stockmarket.” USA Today, 2006.
I hope my CEO’s handicap is 27!

Tough to explain here via words, but here goes, I apologize in advance for any mis-conceptions. For mid to high handicap students who don’t really have a good Pivot, Similar to Leadbetters Xcross upper body pivot drill in his book The Golf wing. Arms folded across the chest.

Elements include: a proper starting position at Setup obviously as the foundation, then restricted hip turn on backswing, start the body motion with a Core muscle firing, mostly oblique abs or shifting the belly into the right rib cage as Elk talks about in his book, maintaining forward spine angle the whole time, right tilt varies as to club category at setup, ie no tilt on wedge, 9 iron to driver right tilt increases at setup and never changes on backswing, eg. 15 degree driver setup right tilt and 15 degrees at the Top of backswing.

shoulder girdle moves perpendicular to spine on backswing, tiny lateral weight shift on backswing is one option – none is the other, moderate degree of lateral tailbone/hip shift to start Transition when you still have 10% more shoulder coil to complete on the backswing, lumbar spine tilt as a result of hip lateral shift, thoracic spine tilt kicks in later on in downswing, ie shoulder girdle does not move perpendicular to spine on downsing but on a slightly steeper plane, Sit Down move on Transition, ie Down Sheer Force into the ground especially into right hip, leg, knee and sole of right foot, oblique abs shifting left the whole time on downswing,.

left hip the turning point of torso pivot on forward swing (opposite of backswing), sternum stays behind the ball on longer clubs and even with it with wedges until after impact, Finish with some of original spine angle – at least half of your setup spine angle unless you have a bad back. Three pivot points: C7/top of sternum for shoulder girdle rotation, each hip socket for torso rotation.

The big Illusion for most students is understanding the relationship between forward spine angle point of origin in the hip girdle and the right spine tilt from lumbar spine, and to how the hip girdle angle is replaced – during forward swing – with the right lumbar tilt angle in terms of origin – degree of forward tilt is the same however. Or – for every degree you stand up out of your forward hip angle you must simultaneously tilt to the right from your lumbar spine so that your degree of forward so-called “spine angle” remains the same until at least 4th parallel position.

Our Key Checkpoint is full Wraparound Finish with belt buckle over middle of left foot, parallel left of target line and sternum well left of that point – it means you hit the ball with your Pivot, instead of Stalling and hitting it with your arms or wrists.

BPGS1,

I knew a man called Rene Le Blanc who taught all three and didn't tell them how to swing.

He said, lets loosen up. Hold the club infront of your face and turn shoulder out and shoulder in. Now loosen up you arms. Swing over each shoulder till you feel free. Then he would stand in front and say, swing towards me, then he stepped to the right and said swing towards me and the same on the left hand side with no explanation.

Then he would invite them to hit shots till they looked up in surprise then he gave then a high five in acknowledgement to the applause of those standing around.

When I pushed him he said all he did was give then a picture. When they were happy he made a big point of the acknowledgment which seemed to cement the new ability in their brain.

He called it NLP. Seemed like common sense to me.

He gave them Lag Rhythm hand motion, shaft control and a good time.

They loved him and didn't know why.

For tuition at Terry Hills, Sydney call 0412 070 820.

Dart – I love that story. He was a Wizard as per my post in the other thread on Teaching Approaches. I too am certified in NLP – Neuro Linguistic Programming, a form of psychotherapy developed back in the 70’s in California by a math/cybernetics prof and a linguistics/anthropology prof from University of California. If the student is having a light bulb go off, that is all a good teacher can really do. Except maybe for giving them a practice plan to follow to cement in that initial learning light bulb.

Jeff,

Increasing ball speed through acceleration is not
the core concept of what I am saying. Increasing FEEL is…

Deeper ball compression is more about feel. The heaviness the player experiences from better compression is best supplied by acceleration
rather than a non changing velocity. This has nothing to do with how far the ball goes. I don’t have any interest in flying over greens.

You can hit a 60 foot chip shot with tremendous acceleration if you used a very short backswing.. The objective of acceleration is not increasing ball speed.

Holding the flex of the shaft puts more feel in the hands of the player.

Feel is the lifeblood of good golf.

Lagpressure – so are you arguing that holding the flex increases “feel” in the hands but doesn’t affect ball flight/distance?

By the way, here is another comment by nmgolfer to a question I posed at Lynn Blake’s forum.

Collisions

Jeff.

heya

im sure it is just me misunderstanding the way things are said, but quick question

you are all saying golfers should swing from the pivot. im a hitter (currently) and when i tried this my pivot was pulling my left shoulder, resulting in a pulling (swinging) type feel. i couldnt work out a way to power the swing with the pivot using a hitting stroke

i could intellectually conceptualise using the pivot to push the right arm if it was fully in front of the turn, but i just couldnt do that

any suggestions?

We teach a two stage release. Pivot first, then power angles release. You can hit or swing with either. You can “hit” with a fast body turn with superconnected upper arms and with less of what I would call a whipcracking release and more of a “no release” release. I think this may be what Lag is referring to his notion of Hitting with radial acceleration. In other words, body hitting is when you are moving a very fast Pivot to keep a constant pressure perpendicular to the shaft, ie the right side of the shaft is being pressured toward the golfers left. The left side of the body is creating a pulling force and the right side a pushing force or at least it feels like a pushing force, technically speaking its a pulling force even for the right side until the clubhead catches up to the hands.

Right arm hitting at least according to early editions of the Yellow Book is just like hammering a nail, ie right triceps thrust. Both styles – Hitting and Swinging – in my opinion use the Pivot as the primary source of Power but right arm hitters add that thrust as a secondary power source and pure swingers do not. A Swinging Pivot shows a Resistance or slowing of the Pivot just before the angles are released and this slowing creates a faster burst of CF and also of COAM (conservation of angular momentum) which feeds into the clubhead and snaps the angles open faster. Colin Montgomery is a good model for the Swinging Pivot. A Hitting Pivot feels like there is no Resistance and therefore no slowing, even though we know in fact there is some slowing due to COAM, just a lot less than a Swinging Pivot. Hogan the model.

Body Hitting as I have defined it above as far as I know (and I am certainly no expert compared to most everyone else posting here) is not talked about in the Yellow Book. You can also Body Hit by a short and fast lateral weight shift during Impact like Trevino and Stadler and some other endomorph body types do.

BPGS1

He also said to imagine that the upper right arm is glued to the chest and the elbow to the right hip. They too are a unit and move at the same speed through impact.

I remembered seeing an image in Joe Dante's 1962 book called the Strap Treatment…Maybe this drill was popular back then or maybe Mr. Hogan gleaned something from Joe Dante…

I love Dantes book but if I remember correctly his strap treatment was for a flying right elbow on the backswing and a mis-conception in my view about the role of connection. It was not an aid to help with superconnection during impact.

Lag,

Sorry, the is no Jackpot and no Bingo.

The only reason the average golfer steers is because he confuses the line of flight of the ball with the line of flight of the clubhead.

What do you do about that? Just tell him?

How long does it take to educate him to the stage where he can do any different?

What chance of pivot rhythm does he have with steering locked in his brain?

Is there a way to pivot with steering?

Tell us how he gets around steering.

Then we can have pivot rhythm with total motion rhythm.

Dart,

As a steering victim on ocassions, I think it comes from two places rather than any confusion, but I may have missed your point.

1. lack of trust, we all know it works, we have been on the range and done it, give me some trouble on the right and well the trust wavers
2. as beez said, us choppers have moments where we hit some horrendous hooks, usually when the hips dont move and the hands flip through the ball.

Number 2 is a symptom of 1, I am trying so hard to trust what I know will work, I know it will come.

Jeff, I’m not arguing anything..

If you admire Homer as you claim, you would know that the secret of golf is sustaining lag pressure..

Acceleration will increase the pressure on the shaft, understood?

The more pressure on the shaft, the more the ball is compressed? understood?

The greater the compression, the heavier the ball feels to the player..

Great golfers love to feel a heavy impact..

After a great player hits 18 greens and sticks it inside 20 feet 13 times you are likely to hear words in the post round interview that might be along the lines of..

Solid, Flush, Pure, striping it,

all that great stuff…

or as you might put it….

fd/fn = 4651 / 484 = 9.6 >> 1.4 !
fd = 4651 Hz
A = .25 lb / (.283* 50) = 17.66 E-3 in2
( P L ) / A E => or K = AE / L

same thing right?

BPGS1

shoot me an email through my ’Äúutube” site.
under ’Äúlagpressure”

Slinger

CF is bs ..does not exist
cp release/cf release are morad terms ( mac ogrady)..directional terms..

yes slinger those are Morad terms. You mention them and Morad and you don’t know what they mean.
They mean exactly that: CF centrifugal Force and CP centripetal
force.And Mac doesn’t deny that.
Just that nowadays CF is actually described better as Centrifugal
Reaction to the Centripetal Force.
What you and all the other donkeys like you fail to understand is
that the swinger doesn’t care whether Cf is a real or a fictitiuous
force. What is important and undeniable is that it pulls outward
the clubhead during its circular motion if you use your left shoulder
as the centre of that circle..
So ask your brilliant friends why they slow down in a narrow curve
while they’re driving the car.Why are the racecar tracks and speed
cycling tracks all inclined towards the center only in the curving parts
of the track?

Dart – I think telling him won’t work as you imply. But – you could show him. I show overhead stop action photos and sometimes overhead video of super slow mo clubhead path. They can see the clubhead move in an arc, especially to the left after impact. Most have an immediate light bulb. They say “Wow! I allways thought that to hit the ball straight down the target line my clubhead would have to moving straight down that same line just before, during and after impact. My last instructor even told to me to ‘extend my clubhead down the target line during and after impact’. Now I get it!”

Some will then ask the next logical question which is “what is causing the clubhead to move in an arc to the left like that after impact?” Without getting too technical in terms of plane concepts, I show them how the body pivot moves the clubhead in an arc. If they want more clarity, I spend some time with them on the plane board until they really get it.

As far as square clubface illusion,kind of steering, I talk about the effective mass of the golf ball at half a ton pushing back on the clubface, (Newton’s third law of equal forces) the bias built into clubhead of mass away from the shaft, ie all clubheads are toe heavy in that respect and that a little bit of clubface closing through forearm roll is a good thing for most golfers. In other words, toe hits cause the face to open during impact. Better ball compression can be partially due to toe moving faster than the heel. Many of my new students actually reverse roll the face during impact, ie from square to open even though they are intending and feeling keeping it square. With these students, I ask them to attempt to do a full roll and to thus hit a big hook. It does take awhile for most to accomplish that.

I have a nice overhead video of J Miller hitting a five iron in super slow mo that show that clubface closing action very clearly. Seeing that – the light bulb usually comes on pretty quickly.

BPG

You wrote-:” Right arm hitting at least according to early editions of the Yellow Book is just like hammering a nail, ie right triceps thrust. Both styles – Hitting and Swinging – in my opinion use the Pivot as the primary source of Power but right arm hitters add that thrust as a secondary power source and pure swingers do not.”

I think that you are wrong about hitters using the pivot as the primary power source. According to HK, hitters use PA#1 release as the primary power source. The pivot only transports the right shoulder downplane before PA#1 fires, so that one doesn’t run-out-of-right arm.

I don’t believe that the body pivot can hit the ball. The body pivot can only activate the arms which swing the club which then transfers power to the ball via the club.

Jeff.

Lagpressure – I think that your logic is flawed when it comes to this causal explanation.

“The more pressure on the shaft, the more the ball is compressed? understood?”.

According to nm golfer’s explanation, increased pressure on the shaft doesn’t increase ball compression. He provided a detailed mathematical explanation in that link I posted. For a given clubhead speed at first impact, increased thrust/weight/pressure behind the shaft doesn’t increase the amount of ball compression and/or ball flight distance.

Jeff

Liberoff

Here is a mathematical explanation for why the club releases.

Club Release Explanation

Some people choose to use the term “centrifugal” to describe the force because that force only occurs when the hands travel in a circle, which then causes the clubshaft to release (as if there is a CF force at play).

Jeff.

Beezneeds,

You can master anything. I made a modest living and played in 15 Australian Opens with throwaway and a weak slice. I gave Jack Nicklaus 50 yds. start unless he wanted to hit one, then it was 80. Funny, we played the same irons into the par 3 greens.

Keep the active hand action as long as it is useful. Sure it feels disconnected but when it hooks its the pivot that goes to work to store the energy longer just as you said. Soon it feels like all one motion. From toes to toe. Strong and simple.

Most people did not notice this process taking place so don’t talk about it. Unless hands are learned some how, the body can never do its work.

If you leave your hands passive as the experts might, you will not go through their metamorphosis. Manual release from the shoulders to automatic from the ankles.

Jeff: I have seen the maths.

An analogy that has not been explained is why a boxers jab delivered at 100mph vs a straightening right arm punch arriving at and through the recipient hurts more. Obviously the thrust has some merit to it. How you model that I have no idea but it is the same thrust that Lag is talking about.

BPGS1,

Thanks for the help from your experience.

I wish all could see The Johnny Miller shot compared to theirs.

When I get smart enough with the tech I will post some of those exact shot.

Ordinary players against fairly good swings. 95 shooters and 79 shooters.

There must be a simple plan for each of us to achieve something like that.

The question with the analogy that you mention above Guru is, is the speed of the straight arm punch constant?

With the jab, there is an acceleration up to impact and then immediate deceleration culminating in an reversal, whereas in the straight arm punch the fist continues through impact.

Not knowing the full science behind it, I would hazard to say that impact velocity etc are the same for both however the staright arm punch also has momentum/inertia added to the calculation whereas the jab doesn’t.

The same principles apply to the golf swing also.

Well, that makes sense to my limited logic. Don’t know if its right though.

The jab is delivered pretty much with the arm straight ( or really close to being straight at range). The full on punch is being driven 6” to a foot through the target area and is being driven with more acceleration going on through the target even if the impact velocity may be the same.

very simple maths

force = mass X acceleration

velocity has no bearing whatsoever, except as it related to acceleration/deceleration

a 100mph fist with no acceleration has no force behind it, at all, apart from the required repulsion to decelerate that fist from 100mph to 0

for example, if the impact takes 1 second (for easy maths, its is much quicker than this)

a punch may move around 10m/s

so deceleration is 10m/s/s

if the hand (with no body force behind it) weighs a few hundred grams. without a constant acceleration the kinetic chain is disengaged. there is no connection between the fist and the body

force = 10 X 0.2
=2 Newtons

but you have an accelerating fist, which if acceleration is equal goes from 0 to 10m/s in say 1 second (for ease of maths)

you can see that force is doubled, to 4 Newtons, as the fist itself has an intrinsic 2 newtons now

now with a proper punch the mass is going to be much higher (kinetic chain) and the acceleration must higher, as well as faster decelerating time. the difference between these two examples become very pronounced

with full kinetic chaining and constant acceleration
force = 20 X 80 (kg)
= 160 Newtons

it is the same in golf. speed with no acceleration disengages the kinetic chain. the only transfer is the club weight with the partial deceleration that occurs at impact

but if you accelerate, and chain your weight into it ….

hope that helps somewhat, may just be confusing

just read through that

this might help

to understand breaking the kinetic chain, imagine your are pushing a block of ice on a frozen lake. you push it slowly but constantly and you stay as one unit. if you shove it, the block will move away from you. this is because your force has lessened at the end of the shove

so steady acceleration (because of steady force) keeps you linked. a drop in acceleration by you (less force) will seperate you from what you are pushing

Jeff, I’m not flawed…

An accelerating pre-stressed clubshaft compresses the ball more than a non accelerating one.

Sometimes you have to try to put these things in the context of reality.

If you (Jeff) are standing still, and a guy runs into you or tackles you, as he is running 20 kilometers per hour but after he hits you he is now going 30 kilometers an hour, you will feel that impact tremendously more than if after he hits you, he slows down considerably.

just read through that

this might help

to understand breaking the kinetic chain, imagine your are pushing a block of ice on a frozen lake. you push it slowly but constantly and you stay as one unit. if you shove it, the block will move away from you. this is because your force has lessened at the end of the shove

so steady acceleration (because of steady force) keeps you linked. a drop in acceleration by you (less force) will seperate you from what you are pushing

So Soulman, if you were going to “kick” a soccer ball with the block of ice you are moving. You think that the soccer ball would go further when it is struck by the ice that you are connected to instead of by the ice that has separated from you because it has accelerated ahead of you and is now traveling faster than the block of ice in the connected example?

Jeff: I have seen the maths.

An analogy that has not been explained is why a boxers jab delivered at 100mph vs a straightening right arm punch arriving at and through the recipient hurts more. Obviously the thrust has some merit to it. How you model that I have no idea but it is the same thrust that Lag is talking about.

I agree and having taught and practised karate from a young age, including board breaking, I believe this to be true. My sensei taught me the concept of penetrating power when punching or kicking. He told me you want to the force of your blow to penetrate deeply into your opponents body to do maximum damage. A glancing blow – even if very high speed – just wont cut it in martial arts.

If you put the golf ball in a machine press, it will deform on the side facing the press.obviously.(as well as the linear opposite side where it is held in place) Pressure in the golf swing has a direction after all. I don’t know what to believe about the shaft stress at impact or not, to be totally honest, there is so much conflicting info out there right now. I have seen photos of Hogan and other pros from the 30’s when some were still using hickory shafts, and their shaft is stressed backwards at impact. It may be that since the actual amount of time the clubhead and ball are in contact is so fleeting that there simply isn’t enough time for the pressure to add a significant amount of force into the ball. But as Lag has said, its a useful Feel to strive for at a minimum. I have seen pro impact photos with no apparent flex and some with backwards flex like Tom Wishon talks about.

But Soul isn’t saying that the ice is travelling faster in the second example. Just that you have slowed down and as such have lost connection with it.

Both blocks of ice are travelling at the same rate.

Lagpressure

You state that-: “If you (Jeff) are standing still, and a guy runs into you or tackles you, as he is running 20 kilometers per hour but after he hits you he is now going 30 kilometers an hour, you will feel that impact tremendously more than if after he hits you, he slows down considerably.”

You are implying – by analogy – that the clubhead speed can be “X” fast at the moment of first ball contact, and that despite the loss of clubhead speed due to the collision with the ball, that the clubhead speed can be 33% faster after ball-clubface impact. Do you have any research-type evidence to support that assertion?

Here, for comparison purposes, is a graph that shows that clubhead speed drops dramatically after ball collision – under normal circumstances.

Deceleration in clubhead speed due to impact

Note that the clubhead was accelerating prior to impact – the rate of acceleration is the slope of the club curve.

Jeff.

But Soul isn't saying that the ice is travelling faster in the second example. Just that you have slowed down and as such have lost connection with it.

Both blocks of ice are travelling at the same rate.

A pommie Man Utd supporter. Some say “Is there anything worse?” I say “I’m only 18 golf strokes from perfection.”

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

This would go against physics. He said, if you shove it, implying adding force,accelerating, etc.

hacking, i am saying the one you are connected to will hit the soccer ball further, as long as both are moving at the same speed at impact, as the fact you are still connected to the block means you must be supplying force to it and therefore are still chained kinetically

if the block is 20 kgs, without you it will be decelerating. a 20kg block of ice without external force on it

with you it can still be accelerating, at a weight of 100kgs, with your muscular force still on it

which hits harder?

the reason you are confused is you assume the shove has more force than the continual pressure. the thought experiment assumes the muscular force applied is the same, the only difference is your mass being kinetically linked to the ice or not

sorry, i just cant think of an easier real life example. anyone who has trained at punching would understand

to jeff,

of course the clubhead slows after impact. it has lost force, been decelerated by the ball. lag was using a hypothetical situation. a better one may have been

a guy hits you at 30kph, after he is moving at 5
or a guy hits your at 30 kph, after he is moving at 25

the second one would feel like a steamroller

to BPGS1

my take on flexed shaft is 2 fold. one it implies continual force, which as you can see means better tranfer of kinetic energy

secondly a flexed shaft is less likely to deform on contact with the ball/ground, as it is already stressed. in this way less energy is lost in shaft flex at contact

BPG

You wrote-:” Right arm hitting at least according to early editions of the Yellow Book is just like hammering a nail, ie right triceps thrust. Both styles – Hitting and Swinging – in my opinion use the Pivot as the primary source of Power but right arm hitters add that thrust as a secondary power source and pure swingers do not.”

I think that you are wrong about hitters using the pivot as the primary power source. According to HK, hitters use PA#1 release as the primary power source. The pivot only transports the right shoulder downplane before PA#1 fires, so that one doesn't run-out-of-right arm.

I don't believe that the body pivot can hit the ball. The body pivot can only activate the arms which swing the club which then transfers power to the ball via the club.

Jeff.

Jeff – easy to test empiracally. Try hitting a 7 iron as far as you can hit it, with absolutely no body turn, not lower body, middle (Core) or upper body but only starting with your right arm bent to 90 degrees and your hands around shoulder to head height. Make a sideways arm “swinging” motion and use right tricep thrust as your only power source besides both upper arms swinging from the shoulder sockets.

In fact to make it even more fair and a true test, do it suspended in the air with the soles of your feet six inches off the ground. I doubt the golfer of average upper arm and tricep strength could hit it more that 75 yards, probably a lot less than that. The Pivot will always unconsciously contribute at least a little so this test is likely impossible to perform in a pure form.

I never met Homer Kelley but I would bet if he were alive today and reading the latest research on the golf swing, that he would absolutely agree that right arm hitting is a secondary power source and can never be a primary source, except perhaps in putting and chipping. He would probably also critique his own book and make some substantial changes to it. My impression of him is that he was an extremely curious and open minded guy as well as being a golfing genius.

Perhaps he meant to say in his book – but clearly did not write this – that right arm hitting is the primary power source that Hitters choose to use among several possible secondary power sources such as rolling forearm hit, lateral weight shift, upper arm swinging action, etc. I can only guess and am not an expert on the book. Perhaps it was simply poor writing on his part and did not convey his true intent. I guess I am saying that we need to question sometimes whether it is wise to take every single thing that he wrote in his book as literal truth.

The Pivot is the primary source of power but the power is transfered to the arms just as a car motor transfers power to the transmission (accumulators) which then multiplies the Force and transfers it to the rear axle, (shaft) which transfers it to the wheels. (clubhead). If I met you in person for a lesson, I guarantee I could convince you 100% within one hour that you can hit the ball with your pivot really well.

Remember the limitations of language though as I well know from reading your many brilliant posts here that you are very cognizant of. I am not saying there is no role for arms and wrists. If it matters to you I can tell you I had a long discussion with Lee Trevino about this about 10 years ago when I was fortunate enough to spend pretty much a full day practicing along side him on the back range at the Citrus club in Palm Springs where he is a member.

He said to me “Jim – take a look at this,” rolled up his right sleeve and showed me his right tricep. It was enormous! Then he rolled up his left sleeve – about half the size of his right triceps. He said “Im a hitter of the golf ball, always have been. I hammer the ball with my right arm.” I said “Lee – I have always admired your swing and I already knew that you are a Hitter, but are you telling me that you believe you get most of your power from that right tricep hammering action?” He looked at me funny and said “Hell no, man! Everybody knows you got to pivot, you got to wind up the body and hit it hard with your hip turn and belly and shoulders.”

When I say you can hit the ball with your pivot, I mean a fast and free-flowing body turn through and past the ball position, kind of like turning a corner with the hips, belly and shoulders, is how all great ballstrikers have always hit the ball, including those like B Jones from the classical era. The upper arms always have some degree of connection pressure during impact on a normal full shot (excluding flop shots with the L wedge). Some pros have a ton of upper arm to chest pressure, Hogan more than any one in history. Others have less.

Some turn the corner fast with their body pivot and some do so at slower speed. How fast they do that affects the lag pressure (inertial forces) placed on both the club and the body parts, from feet to fingers.

The body – Core muscles especially – is the source of power in ALL Sports – no exceptions (well maybe billiards and darts!). You use the resistance provided by the ground to set up a dynamic pattern of stretch and resistance, opposing forces in balance, to create power. Applying it to the ball in golf is a matter of Pivot Thrust of some type and also letting the force flow into the right elbow joint and wrist joints to multiply the force.

There are various ways to control how that force flows and affects the joints and assocated muscle groups, passive vs active for example, triceps thrust, rolling hit of the forearm muscles (never wrist muscles), etc.

BPGS1,

Thanks for the help from your experience.

I wish all could see The Johnny Miller shot compared to theirs.

When I get smart enough with the tech I will post some of those exact shot.

Ordinary players against fairly good swings. 95 shooters and 79 shooters.

There must be a simple plan for each of us to achieve something like that.

For tuition at Terry Hills, Sydney call 0412 070 820.

Your welcome, Dart. I also use the spray chalk/grass paint the maintenence guys use to draw lines on the ground and make the arc line right there on the grass for them to see, their ball sitting on the line in the middle, and tell them “Its june 21 (up here) at noon on a sunny day, sun directly overhead. This is the path your clubhead would make on the ground if I could somehow transfer the in the air arcing path that it really follows down to ground level.”

hacking, i am saying the one you are connected to will hit the soccer ball further, as long as both are moving at the same speed at impact, as the fact you are still connected to the block means you must be supplying force to it and therefore are still chained kinetically

if the block is 20 kgs, without you it will be decelerating. a 20kg block of ice without external force on it

with you it can still be accelerating, at a weight of 100kgs, with your muscular force still on it

which hits harder?

the reason you are confused is you assume the shove has more force than the continual pressure. the thought experiment assumes the muscular force applied is the same, the only difference is your mass being kinetically linked to the ice or not

sorry, i just cant think of an easier real life example. anyone who has trained at punching would understand

Soulman, this makes sense, it confused me in your first post when you said slow and constant. I took that to mean a constant velocity whereas you meant a constant force meaning there is acceleration taking place, presuming that the force is enough to overcome the friction between the frozen lake and block of ice.

As pertaining to the last part of your post and punching, what degree of black belt in Wado Ryu would you considered trained?

Jeff: I have seen the maths.

An analogy that has not been explained is why a boxers jab delivered at 100mph vs a straightening right arm punch arriving at and through the recipient hurts more. Obviously the thrust has some merit to it. How you model that I have no idea but it is the same thrust that Lag is talking about.

That analogy is flawed.The impact duration of the golf ball on the clubface is 0.0006 seconds at 226 km/h clubhead speed.A punch with a straightening arm would increase the duration of impact.A ‘heavy hit’ in golf would make a small difference but negligible due to the short impact duration.

Sustaining the line of compression could be a myth.Brian Manzella used to be the staunchest defender of the ‘heavy hit’.He has now changed his opinion.Brian is one of the most passionate instructors around in terms of getting the truth.He is also a GSED.There must be a damn good reason for him to change his view.

Just food for thought for an open mind.

:)

haha

anyone who threw a punch at a solid object would have some idea! black belts, especially with board breaking experience shouldnt even have to think about this

the true secret of kinetic chaining isnt to utilise your whole body weight into the power equation (f=ma) it is to chain the ground to your body, to use the mass of the dirt below you. this is true for punching as well as golf

the last comment wasnt having a go at you. i knew youd get it. it was for the many people out there who dont know punching

dap, the reason you are wrong is because a golf club is not a fist and a person doesnt punch a golf ball. impact duration will never change in golf, but the supplied force changes greatly. f=ma, it all comes back to it. if connection time never changes, then acceleration is fixed (deceleration really). the only variable is mass

the only way to increase mass is to chain. the only way to chain is to supply constant force

Soulman – you wrote-:”a guy hits you at 30kph, after he is moving at 5 or a guy hits your at 30 kph, after he is moving at 25
the second one would feel like a steamroller.”

Not according to nmgolfers maths. The ball doesn’t travel faster if it experiences a collision with an object that has greater mass and/or greater thrust force. The ball only knows that it was hit by a rigid object traveling at “X’ mph and it reacts accordingly. It doesn’t know whether the rigid object weighed a little or a a lot, or was accelerating or not accelerating, at the time of impact. The ball is not concerned with its effect on the rigid object, and whether that rigid object decelerated a little or a lot. It can only receive a certain amount of collision energy within the 1/4,000 second contact time, and that is primarily due to clubhead velocity at impact.

If you can find a flaw in nmgolfers maths, please provide a correction.

Jeff.

BPGS1

yes, you have it right..

If you want to be an excellent ball striker, you have to engage the body, pivot, #4 whatever your lingo.

Any TGM guys that just say hitters are only using a right arm piston motion to hit the ball are missing the point..

Listen to Trevino, both have to be engaged..

You absolutely have to engage the body BIG TIME either hitting or swinging, if you want to be a fine ball striker.

I really think Homer is greatly misunderstood..

I am an out and out hitter, but I have #1 so delayed that I don’t feel I use it till after impact to keep FORCE happening… I don’t want to ‘feel” as if I am reaching maximum velocity until the 4rth parallel..

To do this, I need to save something. #2 and #3 are spent, I can save some #1, and #4, and I add #5 post impact from P4 to P5 to the finish..

How else could you do it?

Jeff considering Soulz’s equation of f=ma the ball must be effected surely.

If the force applied to the ball equals acceleration multiplied by mass, surely the acceleration of the ball from the clubface must be effected by the same mass as acceleration equals the force applied divided by its mass.

I hope my math is right. Seems logical anyway, to me.

jeffma:

F=MA

jeez

you said:
the ball is only concerned whether the rigid object decelerated or not

F=MA applied to impacts relates to decelerations

so a heavy object WILL DECELERATE LESS

hmm, just been trying to read that reply

i see problems. a lot of it is a poor understanding of terms. i cant assess the maths itself, it has been too long, but statements like

“During the inelastic collision of the club face and ball some energy is lost (it gets converted to heat during the deformation), but momentum is conserved.”

that is so wrong. it is crap of me to pick on statements like this but it is to explain the poor understanding i see there. energy and momentum are ALWAYS CONSERVED. no exceptions. momentum is lost from the system described above also, as both energy and momentum are bound to velocity. if one changes the other changes. you lose kinetic energy, you lose momentum. no exceptions

“Mass is a property of the golf club and it does not change depending on how it gets swung.”

straight up silly. this guy has to be all knowledge, no practice. tell that to a puncher. according to this guy if you throw a club at a ball, as long as it is fast enough the ball will still go as far, assuming a clean impact

you dont add mass to the club, you add mass to the system. why cant girls hit as far as guys? lets insult them, its because they dont try hard enough, right? everything he said is wrong. he wraps it up in maths so no-one else can pick it

Jeff,

The ball only knows that it was hit by a rigid object traveling at ’ÄúX' mph and it reacts accordingly. It doesn't know whether the rigid object weighed a little or a a lot, or was accelerating or not accelerating, at the time of impact.

Jeff, be serious, you don’t really believe this..

Force = mass x velocity

Force means nothing?

you’re just kidding us all right?
you believe force has no effect on any impact situation?

REALLY?

you mean I can go back to just slapping at the ball and I’ll pure it just the same?

WOW…

I’ll go try that tomorrow… lol!

“the average force acting on the club head during a collision is approaching a ton…. Any force a “hitter” can generated pales in comparison to the forces generated during the collision itself”

he doesnt even qualify this

he should watch the world power breaking chamionships and then try to convince himself that the peak force a person can generate from muscle power is so small. id like to see a 125mph club swung by him break 10 bricks, with its amazing 2.5 tonnes of force

SoulmanZ,

If it all came down f=ma,then a clubhead travelling at 100mph but at constant speed and not accelerating will apply zero force to the ball?Conservation of momentum is used to analyse impact physics…...

Guru likes analogies so I will provide one also.If i threw a golf ball into a brick wall(assume the brick wall is suspended off the ground) at 230 km/h,will the ball rebound off it faster or compress more than if I threw it straight into the ground?The earth weighs a lot more than the brick wall so the ball should rebound at the speed of sound…....

misinterpretation of the equation. i just said F=MA in an impact is talking about the deceleration of the clubhead, in the same way how hard you hit someone relates to both how fast your fist was travelling (how far it decelerates) and how heavy it is

you can use momentum equations to analyse it, as all mechanical equations are different ways of saying the same thing. all the integers, force, velocity, mass, acceleration, momentum, impulse, inertia, kinetic energy, they are all tied to each other. if you change one THEY ALL CHANGE

the mass of the earth determines HOW FAR THE EARTH MOVES WHEN HIT BY A GOLF BALL. ie not very far. the force supplied to the earth by the ball, and the ball by the earth are the same. the acceleration is GROSSLY different

a nice way to see it is
Fball =mA
Fearth = Ma

a wall is attached to the earth by the way, so they weigh the same (actually, i just gave the other guy shit for loose thinking like this – the previous statement is not true and i can explain it to anyone who wants to know)

but you throw a golf ball against a pebble suspended in mid air, or a leaf, and yes the ball will ‘rebound’ with less force. ie it will not rebound at all, it will keep going, and take the pebble or leaf with it

But in that analogy the ball is the thing doing the hitting not the other way round.

The real thing to think of is whould the ball travel further if hit by a wall suspended off the ground travelling at 230kmh than it would travel if hit by an object with a mass equal to that of the earth and which is travelling at 230kmh.

nah 12shoc, read my reply. it doesnt matter which way it happens

its all there

Soulmanz, thinking about your explanation then, Rebound is simply negative acceleration?

Ie. The ball is accelerating at 10m/s when it hits the wall/earth. Wall/earth absrobs the force generated by the ball and then refelcts it back. The ball decelerates so much that it does more than stop but accelerates away from the wall/earth.

SoulmanZ,

I did state to assume the brick wall is suspended off the ground ie. not attached to the earth.

I would also assume that the brick wall will not move much also due to the light weight of the golf ball so the situation is the same.

So what is the difference between the brick wall hitting the ball or the earth?

12 shoc:
hmmmm

tricky to answer

give me a minute

short answer no, longer answer maybe

dap:

compared to the golf ball the brick wall and the earth both have enormously more mass. you are talking about geometric equations. they both apporach infinity compared to the ball

use instead the ball vs small stone compared to ball vs wall

the ball will bounce harder off the wall, the stone will bounce away

you know this

the answer is the same as to 12shocs question as to why, give me a minute to phrase it right

So for a golf ball to exert enough force to stop the earth in orbit it would have to generate:

Mass: 5.9736ˆó1024 KG
velocity: 297858.9 m/s

fearth = (5.9736×1024)x297858.9

= 1821992883.24N

Golf ball:
Mass: 0.04593kg

v=f/m

v=1821992883.24N / 0.04593

=3966806668 m/s or 3966806.668km/s

Or 142,808,064,003.135 km/h

Given that light travels at 10,900,000,000 kmh the ball would have to travel 14 times the speed of light to stop the earth in its tracks. Pointless for this discussion but interesting in a perverted kind of way. ;)

for any force exerted there is an equal and opposite force. why this is i cant explain. i cant remember if anyone can. when it comes down to it i think it probably comes down to electromagnetic repulsion, but that is another discussion. you push down hard on the ground with your legs and you are pushed up into the air, hopefully to score a slam dunk

we all know how this works

when a moving object hits a unmoving object, the force of the collision (assuming no lost energy, which is velocity, which is acceleration, which is force) is equal to the mass of the moving object times its deceleration

this force is applied to both collision participants

so from the collision a lighter object will be repelled further than a heavy one

note this does not mean a light object hitting a heavier object will be repelled further than if it hit a lighter object

but then it gets complicated (that above was easy!)

in REAL LIFE, as opposed to the above example, there are forces called inertia and friction. both are related to mass (just trust me if you dont know this already). to move a stone lying on the ground you must overcome inertia and friction. so a force is applied when a golf ball hits it. if this force is greater than inertia and friction, the stone will move. because the stone moves prior to the full force of impact being applied (it moves as soon as the force overcomes inertia/friction) the full opposite force is not applied on the golf ball, so it doesnt fly backwards

the ball hits a wall, where inertia is sooooooo much stronger, the small force does not overcome it and the full oppoiste force is applied to the ball. it rebounds

i hope that is simple enough. they are complicated concepts

haha 12shoc, close but not quite

F=MA, not MV

you have to take into account the duration of impact, and then as above calculate the resistance the earth has to moving, both from inertia and friction against the surrounding space to see how much force is needed for the earth to even start moving

although im not entirely sure how inertia works when the major centre of gravity is the object itself. i guess you would use the gravitational effect of the sun

sorry for crazy musings

hey maybe we should stop destroying this beautiful thread and start a physics one?

for any force exerted there is an equal and opposite force. why this is i cant explain. i cant remember if anyone can. when it comes down to it i think it probably comes down to electromagnetic repulsion, but that is another discussion. you push down hard on the ground with your legs and you are pushed up into the air, hopefully to score a slam dunk

we all know how this works

when a moving object hits a unmoving object, the force of the collision (assuming no lost energy, which is velocity, which is acceleration, which is force) is equal to the mass of the moving object times its deceleration

this force is applied to both collision participants

so from the collision a lighter object will be repelled further than a heavy one

note this does not mean a light object hitting a heavier object will be repelled further than if it hit a lighter object

but then it gets complicated (that above was easy!)

in REAL LIFE, as opposed to the above example, there are forces called inertia and friction. both are related to mass (just trust me if you dont know this already). to move a stone lying on the ground you must overcome inertia and friction. so a force is applied when a golf ball hits it. if this force is greater than inertia and friction, the stone will move. because the stone moves prior to the full force of impact being applied (it moves as soon as the force overcomes inertia/friction) the full opposite force is not applied on the golf ball, so it doesnt fly backwards

the ball hits a wall, where inertia is sooooooo much stronger, the small force does not overcome it and the full oppoiste force is applied to the ball. it rebounds

i hope that is simple enough. they are complicated concepts

Well stated. I think the key to this whole discussion is the golf ball in contact with the clubface long enough to compress the ball significantly or not? Another question is does the forward leaning clubshaft that always accompanies lag pressure stress on shaft along with the mass of the hands have any ability to create a more stable clubface during the impact interval which could improve accuracy. And how that relates to smash factor a well.

haha 12shoc, close but not quite

F=MA, not MV

you have to take into account the duration of impact, and then as above calculate the resistance the earth has to moving, both from inertia and friction against the surrounding space to see how much force is needed for the earth to even start moving

although im not entirely sure how inertia works when the major centre of gravity is the object itself. i guess you would use the gravitational effect of the sun

sorry for crazy musings

hey maybe we should stop destroying this beautiful thread and start a physics one?

Yeah maybe we should. ;)

Sometimes I get the bug for crazy musings like that.

On a side point, is it momentum that is calculated mass x velocity? I’m sure something is.

I have no intention of this turning into a science debate.This is a TGM forum and a TGM thread so it should be kept on topic.Believe what you want to believe.

The science debate has been done to death on other forums and it seems all the science geeks have concluded that it matters little whether the clubhead is accelerating or decclerating or whether there is a human or a 1000kg robot swinging the club.Impact duration is too short to significantly affect the outcome.

hmmm

maybe the only example i can think of, and be careful because it is very hyperbolic

in a particle accelerator, they fling particles at close to the speed of light. collision time is infinitely shorter than that of the golf impact. there is no deformation

the heavier particle transfers more energy

there is no argument

these laws are immutable. they cannot be argued against. accelerating in and of itself has very little effect on power, but it allows kinetic chaining, as discussed previously. without an accelerating motion, the club loses contact with the body and mass decreases

science geeks are over-rated

in relation to the robot, the mass of the robot is irrelevant. all it does is swing a club. it doesnt supply its own mass behind the swing

but make a giant robot that swings an arm that is 1000kg with the same speed as the other robot, and the force difference is outrageous. if a robot could swing a 1000kg arm at 120mph it would probably launch the ball into orbit

dont even front

Interesting.

How is force related to momentum?

Asked by: Melissa Thomas

Answer

Momentum measures the ‘motion content’ of an object, and is based on the product of an object’s mass and velocity. Momentum doubles, for example, when velocity doubles. Similarly, if two objects are moving with the same velocity, one with twice the mass of the other also has twice the momentum.

Force, on the other hand, is the push or pull that is applied to an object to CHANGE its momentum. Newton’s second law of motion defines force as the product of mass times ACCELERATION (vs. velocity). Since acceleration is the change in velocity divided by time, you can connect the two concepts with the following relationship:

force = mass x (velocity / time) = (mass x velocity) / time = momentum / time

Multiplying both sides of this equation by time:

force x time = momentum

To answer your original question, then, the difference between force and momentum is time. Knowing the amount of force and the length of time that force is applied to an object will tell you the resulting change in its momentum.

that sounds eerily like what i said doesnt it? just need to add time 12shoc

it does illustrate well how connected they all are

edit: started a physics thread in the lounge if anyone has further questions, or wants to discuss quantum thermodynamics!

im sure jeff will have some things to say at some point

David Tutelman 1

David Tutelman 2

Jeff.

For those wishing to pursue the physics, do a search and find all that been done before, or set up a new thread to kick it around in.

jeff nothing in that denies what i said

in fact it states that mass does have an effect on distance, albeit a smaller one than speed

i deny some things in those pages, but its too convoluted to discuss

remember that better kinetic chaining, which can only occur with acceleration, will also result in more speed as well as mass. and you can increase swing speed maybe 10 kph but with chaining you change mass from 300 grams to 80kilos or more

have a good one

edit: guru, i already started that thread, you are too late!

Jeff and all the so called scientifico-physico-dynamico theoricians:

THANK YOU for spoiling one of the greatest golf thread on the net
Don’t forget to bring all your hazy theories on the course …
if you still have some time for what we are seeking:

PLAYING ENJOYABLE GOLF

I agree with philthevet06…I think we all need to just listen more to what Lag, BPGS1 and others can teach us..like the myth of Hogan’s dragging right foot that he mentioned earlier…

FWIW, velocity is the derivative of position and acceleration is the derivative of velocity..and to go backwards from acceleration to velocity you take the integral…

So Lag is saying he feels more force in his hands as he makes a downswing…So for him, his “A” in F=MA is not a constant…It’s more like A squared…So in terms of velocity, Lag’s Force = .333(M) V cubed instead of F=.5MV squared which equals more feel

Enough with Calculus 101….back to the GOLF thread..

Particle Accelerators?

No….Things change when things move that fast… Newtons laws break down… but that is of no concern to golfers.

Mass?

Yes… If you can get it where it need to be which is in the club head. A golfer’s or a machine’s mass has no effect during the collision. Heck the ball is gone practically before the shock wave from impact has reached a golfer’s hands. That’s right by the time you “feel” impact the ball is already well on its way.

Is the duration long enough to compress they ball?

Yes absolutely… there are many high speed photos which prove and I round one up if you wish.

Strange nmgolfer.

You’ve made 26 posts and 4 of the posts, in this and the Physics thread, that I’ve read have all been derogatory. Nice way to make a point.

NOT HERE

IN THE PHYSICS THREAD
PLEASE

Perhaps Admin could delete some of these “Physics” posts to clear up the clutter in this thread so that it can get back to talking about TGM?

We are back on topic now….. physics to that thread please.

Now back to the Golf Channel….

BPGS1,

Thanks for the help from your experience.

I wish all could see The Johnny Miller shot compared to theirs.

When I get smart enough with the tech I will post some of those exact shot.

Ordinary players against fairly good swings. 95 shooters and 79 shooters.

There must be a simple plan for each of us to achieve something like that.

For tuition at Terry Hills, Sydney call 0412 070 820.

Your welcome, Dart. I also use the spray chalk/grass paint the maintenence guys use to draw lines on the ground and make the arc line right there on the grass for them to see, their ball sitting on the line in the middle, and tell them ’ÄúIts june 21 (up here) at noon on a sunny day, sun directly overhead. This is the path your clubhead would make on the ground if I could somehow transfer the in the air arcing path that it really follows down to ground level.”

BPGS1,
Do you have one of the overhead clips that you could share with us? Just a golfer with a decent swing will do if you can’t show J.Miller. I would appreciate this immensely.
Cheers

Sorry, not possible – the Miller tape is in VHS format. I need to somehow transfer all my old vhs videos to digital, not sure how to do that. I am a 40 handicap with computers! J MIller put this overhead view in his video filmed about 12 years ago in Palm Springs, “Johnny Millers’ Golf Clinic”. It might be available now in dvd format. I have some overhead still photos of Tiger, Tom Watson, Hal Sutton, actual print photos from books and golf mags, not digital that I could post here. I wonder if you might try youtube for this?

If you have access to a plane board, you can easily see yourself how the clubhead moves in an arc when the shaft tracks on the surface of the plane board. Its a great learning aid for teachers to use to dispel some of the illusions in their students minds.

BPGS1 or any other competent,

I would like for x-mass a couple of shot of an average player and a good player that demonstrates the difference between Mr. Average (90 shooter and Mr. 80 breaker).

Probably look something like what Hogan said on page 102,103 in TMF.but the right shot might make a big impression on someone.

The most revealing would be between release point and follow through point.

Then we could print it and put on the toilet door for contemplation at one of our most magical moments. Release point?!:)

BP: ask your local at your local Apple store. They will know someone locally who has the gear.

I love looking at overhead swings. I think they great for helping to develop a proper perception of the pivot particularly if you have a lazy lower body which I, like alot of us, do. Checkout Nicklaus, Plamer, Player and Souchak in this clip – not strictly overhead but it does the job anyway:

Overhead Swings

Agree – the science stuff is a bloody nuisance guys!!!

Jeff -

You said my hook was produced by “flipping”.

I’m a bit of a flipping expert, I can tell you that the move that produced the hook was not a “flip” in the usual sense in my book, but was produced by what I’ll call “over-rolling”.

Basically, the palm of left hand was beginning to face the sky rather the usual hackers palm of left hand facing the ground through the ball.

I don’t actually feel that the move Dart/Bonar/Hogan are talking about is particularly ‘active’ at all. To me at the moment it is a bit like an on/off switch and if you hit the on switch too early (no doubt without your goddam PIVOT in the right place!) you have a bad shot coming up.

It’s the classic problem – when you improve something, the other parts of your swing also require an overhaul to accomodate the new forces you are producing.

But the thing is this: if you have your hands in decent order – producing a flat left wrist (FLW) at the right time – you can hit very decent shots; proper golf shots.

I have also worked on my golf swing using Lag’s advice, and found it fascinating and seen really good improvements from it. There’s definitely gold in them thar hills alright!!!!

However, I only now feel I am starting to get the whole FLW thing and that basically means clubface control. That has to be a huge advantage?

I accept that monitoring lag pressure is clearly the key to feel, and that the pivot is a key to the accelaration that helps you do this- but what about knowing where the clubface is during the swing? More gold! (how lucky we are!)

With a bad hand action – and no real understanding of what hand action is about – the improvements you get from a developing a good pivot are bound to be inconsistent.

Hands first, pivot second makes so much more sense for the 90s shooter.

As Dart says, if you can break 80, you should probably then go to work on your body.

And Lag, if I take you back a bit, one of the first things you advised me to do was go out and work on hitting chips until I could do it consistently well, right!?

Beezneeds

I didn’t state that your hooking was due to flipping.

I stated the following-: “You were probably hooking due to flipping and/or inconsistent clubface closure secondary to an active wrist-induced roll over action of the hands”

I gave two possible causes for hooking – flipping or wrist over-rolling. You admit that the second cause (over-rolling) is your problem. I think that the AJ Bonar’s concept of an ’”active hand roll-over” in the immediate vicinity of the impact zone promotes this problem because it requires exquisite timing.

Look at this photo series again.

Look at how much the hands rotate over in the impact zone. That’s about a 90-160 degree rotation from the time period that the hands move from the pre-impact zone (inside the right thigh) to the post-impact zone (just past the left thigh). That means that the clubface has to roll-over that amount over a hand distance travel of about 12-18”. How likely is it that a golfer will get that timing right.

Second point – read AJ Bonar’s article – page 3.

AJ Bonar’s Magic Move

This is what he states on page 3

“Now the fun part! About two or three feet before your hands reach impact, assertively rotate them toward the target. Imagine you’re gripping a screwdriver and turning it counterclockwise. This closes the clubface, generating big-time power.”

Note that he doesn’t explain which muscle actions, and at what level (wrist/forearm/arm), are used to perform this counterclockwise screwdriver move.

Do you know i) which muscles should be involved and/or at what level this counterclockwise rotation of the hands should occur; and ii) do you believe that this hand action should be active or passive in a swinger?

Jeff.

Beezneeds

I didn't state that your hooking was due to flipping.

I stated the following-: ’ÄúYou were probably hooking due to flipping and/or inconsistent clubface closure secondary to an active wrist-induced roll over action of the hands”

I gave two possible causes for hooking – flipping or wrist over-rolling. You admit that the second cause (over-rolling) is your problem. I think that the AJ Bonar's concept of an '”active hand roll-over” in the immediate vicinity of the impact zone promotes this problem because it requires exquisite timing.

Look at this photo series again.

Look at how much the hands rotate over in the impact zone. That's about a 90-160 degree rotation from the time period that the hands move from the pre-impact zone (inside the right thigh) to the post-impact zone (just past the left thigh). That means that the clubface has to roll-over that amount over a hand distance travel of about 12-18”. How likely is it that a golfer will get that timing right.

Second point – read AJ Bonar's article – page 3.

AJ Bonar's Magic Move

This is what he states on page 3

’ÄúNow the fun part! About two or three feet before your hands reach impact, assertively rotate them toward the target. Imagine you're gripping a screwdriver and turning it counterclockwise. This closes the clubface, generating big-time power.”

Note that he doesn't explain which muscle actions, and at what level (wrist/forearm/arm), are used to perform this counterclockwise screwdriver move.

Do you know i) which muscles should be involved and/or at what level this counterclockwise rotation of the hands should occur; and ii) do you believe that this hand action should be active or passive in a swinger?

Jeff.

Jeffmann,

I would’nt take those pictures of AJ Boner too literally.That’s a great name by the way.

I think what he’s trying to convey is the “feel” of what happens through impact.Left forearm rolls and knuckles down or left palm catching raindrops.No good player in reality when performing a full swing actually achieves those positions even though it may feel like it.