Jeff is not undermining the good work by others on this forum. He is not misleading anyone. That is undermining us thinking that. What Jeff is doing though is pissing others off with the disrespect he shows for their past. That pisses me off, because, as gratitude, I wish Lag, BP, Sevam,... to enjoy their time here. This disrespect is equivalent to flat out calling them incompetent, and it’s that same academic snobbery seen in other fields.

We know who to listen to – it radiates clearly, even in text form. We’ve all been through illusion after illusion with the golf swing. We’re also used to scientists proving each other wrong time and time again in every field. As we’re here to improve our swing, we know that only experience and actually doing it means something. Meet Dart and you know he’s seen it all, he’s seen how students stumble, how they best react and you know he’s been out there playing at a level we can only dream of. Hear BP speaking, unrehearsed, and you’ll know this guy has helped thousands. It comes through as charisma and an ability to communicate.

But we also come to this forum because we love our golf and love to talk about it with people we enjoy. So having someone constantly stirring the pot is just like that annoying guy at the pub who just wants a fight.

Some of Jeff’s posts have been good reads and I thank him for that, but like A.B (who also gave a fresh insight), time and time again things just get nasty when he’s around. I’m not concerned if he means it to happen or not, it just happens.

I’ve questioned Jeff’s audience before, he says he might only be writing for 0.000001% of visitors here, so I ask what’s the point? His presence therefore just comes across as taking advantage of those of huge experience for his own treatise and trying to disprove the big boys as a shortcut to credibility. Jeff’s posts change the flavour of this forum from instruction to research. And stating there is ‘no requirement to read my posts’ is like telling complainers not to smell your farts if they don’t like them.

Gentlemen

I’ve had my share of disagreements with Jeff in the past, but for blokes like me trying to understand what happens in the golf swing, I want to see his hypotheses debated with reason and not see him attacked personally.

One can only take so much of the attitude before cracking Wilkie. Lag lasted amazingly long.

One can only take so much of the attitude before cracking Wilkie. Lag lasted amazingly long.

Understandable. But we shouldn’t get sucked in.

The “style of post” is the main issue. It does not fit into this type of forum as it puts off people from point a point up for fear of “you said, I said”. That gets things personal and why flame wars break out.

The bigger motional picture becomes a semantics blur.

For those who wish to kick on with Jeff, Lynne Blake’s forum has a “golf by Jeff” area – though note it does have a caveat that is is not endorsed by LBG. It is a more research and TGM deep end place than this forum was ever meant to be.

Hey Styles,
Having a blast over here, The Americans over here have been fantastic to me. They are so polite and helpful.
Learning truck loads and having a ball only been a few days and my brain is fried from new drills and knowledge.
Can’t wait to get home to Oz and get cracking with my new centre the industry is in for a rude shock when I open my doors.

The forum brainiac has been arguing about pre and post impact velocities for months, claiming they don’t matter, but he has been using this chart below, but not telling us he is referring to the flatline figures way on the right side that show the diminishing returns that actually appear to zero out when a golf club weighs 20 pounds or 10 kilograms. The chart clearly shows what we all know to be true, when you’re dealing with weights that would be similar to GOLF CLUBS! Pre and post impact velocities DO MATTER in relation to BALL SPEEDS.
The lighter the club, the more it matters.. My persimmon driver weighs about 383 grams.. the graph is plenty steep in this chart.. around those
“planet golf club” tolerances..

The brainiac is just trying to $#x%x with us for his own amusement.

I really tried to keep an open mind as I always do, but he showed his true colors by posting this graph that DOES back up what he is saying scientifically:

IF THE GOLF CLUB WEIGHS 20 KILOGRAMS!

And stating there is ‘no requirement to read my posts' is like telling complainers not to smell your farts if they don't like them.

lol!

Steb, that made me spit my tea out you git!

Thank Godness, clubs aren’t 20 kilos no way known my tooth pick arms could apply extensor action to them. The club would rip my arms out of the sockets moving at 100 mph as well. My back hurts as well just thinking about it.
Was this experiment conducted by cheech and Chong,
I

Hi Guys

Can someone please tell me where I can buy the book ( The Golfing Machine) in Australia. I am just getting back into golf after many years away, have discovered this forum which is a great resource but am very confused- thought I’d start byt reading the book and then bombard you with questions later.

Thanks heaps.

Buzz

drop me an e-mail to golfguruATiseekgolfATiseekgolf.com and I can sort you out

Thanks Paul

my program is telling me that it does not recognise that email address- but it did recognise golfguruATiseekgolf.com ????

That was weird. Still you found the correct mail box this end:)

Hi guys,

I watched the SWW of Golf match between Hogan and Snead for the first time today (40th birthday present to myself!). One of the things that struck me was Hogans practice swings. Whatever the physical realities of the subsequent shot in terms of “intent” it looked very much to me as if Hogan was consciously trying to accelerate all the way to the finish on his practice swings for full shots. I’ll post some limited footage on you tube at some point for those who havn’t seen it.

I found this interesting as I couldn’t, off the top of my head, remember many other players that had this look on their practice swings.

Cheers,

Arnie

P.S. I wonder if the master recording of all shots over the 18 holes will ever ppear at some point.

nice one Arnie, have you a link to where you found your copy, is it readily available?

Maybe you could make a ‘back up’ copy in case something happens to your original! :-P

Arnie,

that is a great observation..
I can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t take practice swings not doing this.. my practice swings always do this.. I have to feel the shot I am going to hit, and how much effort or pivot thrust I will be applying for the shot at at hand… if the pivot dies post impact so does your shot..

My friend Al Barkow was walking the fairways that day inside the ropes as a journalist.. it was his first assignment with the Shell’s series..
I’m playing golf with him next month, so I’ll pick his brain a bit more about it then.. he did tell me that Hogan would literally go weeks without missing a fairway. He told me Hogan’s golf swing was just in another league than any of his contemporaries, and they all knew it.

Of course he didn’t win everything because golf is a biathalon and you can see how unfantastic a putter he could be at times..

Guys like Bobby Locke would just kill him on the greens..

Wow lag, you never cease to amaze. I was just looking at Amazon and I see that Barkow has a book all about his SWW experiences. Maybe you could get him to sign a copy for me?!!

nice one Arnie, have you a link to where you found your copy, is it readily available?

Maybe you could make a ‘back up' copy in case something happens to your original! :P

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

- Helen Keller

Hi Styles,

Drop me an email through my youtube account.

Cheers, Arnie

Arnie speaks

This is really great… watch the twinkle in his eyes as soon as he mentions the vintage gear..

It’s just so obvious…

He knows..

I was just listening to an interview with Al the other day – I think I’d rather just listen to him speak for 4 hours rather than play golf!

his biography is a great read.

When is someone going to have the balls to make films like “Follow the sun” about the lives of Arnie and Nicklaus??

Gee whiz, the budget could be small but these films really should be made!

Hi Lag,

I was thinking today about the role of dynamic tension in your swing and in the swing of “hitters” generally. A while back in the “flat vs upright” thread you described that whilst to the onlooker your swing might look graceful, flowing etc, to you performing it actually feels quite violent. You gave us the analogy of the duck on water “graceful as it glides across the surface, but under the water it is really working hard paddling” You also mentioned that when you do your drills full on they can actually leave you out of breath, though you scale things down a little when you are actually playing.

In a seperate thread (might have been Prot’s Impact bag thread) I think you also answered a question and talked about gravity helping the plane shift from parrallel 2 down to parrallel 3 to get to that 4.30 / inside quadrant position. I can see how this works (letting the club fall into the desired slot) but when I have played around hitting a few balls I find that gravity works better when there is less muscular tension rather than more i.e the club “feels” as if it will fall further and more behind me with less muscular tension. The problem is I don’t want “noodle” arms/wrists when I get to p3 if I am attempting to pull the “club out of orbit”. So is this a case where there is a choice to be made between the level of dynamic muscular tension employed and the effects of gravity or is there a way of having the best of both worlds. Perhaps it depends exactly where the tension is situated (e.g) by all means have a firm grip and tension in the core and the upper pressure points but the wrists must remain loose in the transition to allow gravity to take maximum effect? Or is your solution for plane shifting for hitters always based on proactively straightening the right arm early?

Cheers, Arnie

Great observations there Arnie,

Obviously you have really been working on some of these concepts.

One of the great advantages of less plane shifting, flatter backswing, or the higher hand position at address (Moe Norman – shoulder plane) is that you don’t have to worry “as much” about getting back down to elbow plane.

Sam Snead always talked about “soft hands” but it is important to understand that soft hands don’t always mean light grip.. Hogan’s soft looking hands at the transition are often mistaken for noodle arms.. don’t be fooled… I am quite convinced that this is the reason Hogan was a ball beater, because ball beating does tend to soften the hands… (I can relate, because I was a ball beater, now I just use the bag instead)

You can train the wrists to be free, flexible, and oily, and still maintain a very firm grip on the club. It can take some time, but it can be done.

This soft hands (really wrists) you can see active in the transitions at the top of the backswing of many great players. It is most clearly evident when watching the players who we can visually see the layoff of the shaft at the transition. The transition is greatly effected by the path of the backswing, and the tempo.

Let’s look at Trevino, we see a strong out to in action, all set up with great intentions. He uses the backswing to throw the club down into the slot with an out to in action. He limits the plane shifting with a short backswing. All this really so he can keep a firmness in the arms and hands, and maintain a constant grip pressure and tension.

Your feeling of wanting to have lighter grip pressure or lighter tension to get into the slot is typical of swingers.

The gravity drop into the slot is one way to do it.. The upright swings that make the big drop down requires slower tempos, and either a learned patience or a natural, “just kinda of have it”.

If this is something that you just can’t seem to do, or constantly fight,
then the flat backswing could be a viable option. The key to the flat swing is to learn the real dynamic pivot actions that are required to do so. All the talk about loading the feet, and clearing the hips quickly post impact, all that great stuff is without doubt the best way to hit a golf ball. Why? This is what the greats do..

Hitters who rely on body rotation, particularly an increase in post impact rotational speed, can really benefit from a flat or level shoulder turn more than swingers. If you turn flat, as in this case,
you have to straighten the right arm on the downswing, and it is this active straightening of the right arm from P2 to _P3 that is what I believe a lot of TGM hitters experience as right arm thrust…

To get the feeling right, I drill the transition only, then the post impact feeling of the right arm..

I consider it a mortal sin to drill from P2 to P3 anything.. because it encourages quiting… nothing makes me cringe more than the players who rock back and forth from the the top to p3 and back..
or back and forth.. you NEVER want to train the body, arms or hands to STOP on the way down to the ball… NEVER.

So Arnie,

I suggest keeping the same firmness you are experiencing during the “orbit pull out” throughout the swing.. and experiment with how you can make the transition from backswing to downswing keeping these tensions in place. Flattening the backswing and activating right arm straightening on the downswing should go a long way toward getting you to where you want to be.. not only regarding plane shifting, but keeping the firmness and tension you are realizing needs to be preserved.

Is the Hale swing leaving us? LOL

The reason I prefer to teach and play from a more traditional set up position with the hands closer and lower to the body at address and impact is that it encourages body activity. If you put your hands high at address, and stand farther from the ball, there is a tendency to start the club back with just the arms and not the body. Golfers love to swing with their arms and not their bodies.

The standing close to the ball, hands low really encourages the golfer to engage the body. (Mac O). Mac is a master of this move and he is the king of right arm straightening via flat shoulders on the downswing to enable the effectiveness of such radical plane shifting.

Getting back to Moe, I don’t think Moe’s “one plane” swing should be taught until a student has shown the ability to maximize torso rotation while employing minimal hand travel….and really has this down.. it’s very advanced ball striking stuff. Anyone working on Moe’s move really has to understand this.. Moe is a real unique study… but it’s not as simple as it looks obviously. The “one plane” concept sounds simple but it takes a very effective pivot action to make it work properly, which Moe had. It can be learned though.

The gravity drop into the slot is one way to do it.. The upright swings that make the big drop down requires slower tempos, and either a learned patience or a natural, ’Äújust kinda of have it”.

If this is something that you just can't seem to do, or constantly fight,
then the flat backswing could be a viable option. The key to the flat swing is to learn the real dynamic pivot actions that are required to do so. All the talk about loading the feet, and clearing the hips quickly post impact, all that great stuff is without doubt the best way to hit a golf ball. Why? This is what the greats do..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Prot – great insights there. No need to learn an arm drop at all if you have left fore arm matching Turned Right Shoulder Plane at the Top, line draws from tip of right shoulder to target line. Assuming you still have your intact Spine Angle of course. If you have extensor action and sideways triangle pressure in your hands and arms, you can just pivot properly and the pivot will bring your arms, hands and club into hitting position at P3. No need to do anything with arms from Top to P3. That is the easiest Transition move of them all, almost foolproof! AK does this very well, a lot of the younger guys with the simpler swings do also.

Some guys have a knack for the big plane shifting.. here are a couple extremes..

As much as most would argue the virtues of Kim’s swing,
I really like Furyk’s impact alignments here much better..

Because Furyk has poor post impact hip rotation, he actually has to do the big plane shift to get some velocity going, and he has the patience to really gradually build the speed on the way down without over accelerating.. Obviously it works, but there are simpler and better ways to strike a golf ball…

But from P3 to P4, as far as swing plane path goes , I really like it (Furyk) top shelf stuff..

Lag,

Thanks for the terrific analysis re: the transition move. I’ll take my circa 1969 Haig Ultra 385 contour soled irons out and see what they teach me. Have to have a game with those aluminium shafts before I change them just to see how they are – they sound terrible!

Cheers, Arnie

Does Peter Kostis understand the concept of being “on plane”?

I really don’t know a lot about Peter Kostis, other than he is a highly respected teacher in the US. A good friend of mine who won the US Amateur, and a PGA Tour event in the 80’s worked with Kostis and he was very disappointed. He was not able to answer his questions sufficiently and he left to work with Haney who really messed him up.
He lost his card and has struggled since.

Understanding “on plane” is quite a study in itself. First you have to know if you are hitting or swinging because hitters and swingers are on different planes. Plane shifting must be correlated with tempo and a players ability to wait or not to wait. In other words, compact swings with brisk tempos don’t produce Jim Furyk!

P3 to P4 we can assume we must be on plane, yet again, there is a significant difference in what happens there, depending upon whether you are going after radial or longitudinal acceleration. CF affects the swing plane, because we have different options of dealing with it’s force. We can welcome it, and just free wheel it into a swinger’s release, or we can fight it with all our might into a true hitters protocol, or we can slightly tame it in any of the in-between these extremes. All these manipulations affect our swing plane.

The golfball doesn’t care a whole lot about the backswing. It does if the downswing is heavily reliant upon the forces exerted by a quick backswing that is creating a lot of CF on the way back and really throwing the club into “the slot”... we really see this with Trevino…
but the reality is that history has shown us almost every kind of backswing work with very good results. It certainly isn’t the first thing we need to worry about.

Apparently Peter Kostis gave up teaching club golfers because he couldn’t get them to improve.

I also heard that Hank Haney is a one dimensional method teacher who doesn’t hit full shots in front of his students because his swing is so God damn awful.

You would think that these respected names would live up to their reputation.

Maybe the golf instruction industry needs to be regulated.

There are too many charlatans and false prophets for my liking.

Royshh, do not confuse teaching ability and playing to Tour Level.

Hank hits a mean ball still. One of my US college players had been to see him and her old man was amazed at how Hank could still launch it.

He does teach a ‘one way’ method though.

TGM was the first time that someone explained law to me, and not just smoke and mirrors.

The yellow book is very cryptic in many ways, and even Hogan’s books are a bit “read between the lines” and you are sometimes left wondering, is he holding something back? Secrets and all that “in the dirt” stuff… I am reading Johnny Miller’s 2004 book right now and he is talking about Hogan’s “dirt” secret, and to Miller, it meant he just practiced and grinded his way to greatness.

I have always been more into “what they do” than “what they say”.

Haney, Ledbetter, a lot of those guys are high 70’s shooters at best.
The boom in golf in the last decade has put a lot of very unqualified pros on teaching ranges, just do to the demand of golf course logistics. Every golf course needs at least 3 or 4 pros, and the public reaches out to them for aid and assistance as they should.

Royshh, you make a great point about regulation, I suspect teaching pros could easily be required to take 6 years of training just as a medical surgeon and also need several years of benchwork in the trenches, before they start operating on peoples golf swings.

The other problem is that even really top players don’t always understand what they are doing… another problem with good players is that they are out playing all the time…

That reminds me of when I was a kid, our club pro was a fine player because he loved to play, and he was always out playing with the members, and they eventually fired him because they wanted him in the pro shop selling socks and hats to the members wives.

The corporate mentality of running a busy golf course has nothing to do with teaching the game.

It’s a HUGE problem for golfers that really strive to get better. I remember the first time I went to a range last year, I just sat and listened to the pro giving a lesson, because the range was all mats
and I won’t hit off a mat… so I watched him work with a young junior girl who could have potential, and it really was shocking to hear all the BS that her mom was paying $100 an hour for.. It was hard for me not to say anything really. She’d do just as good going to an astrologist or fortune teller. Probably better actually.

All the readers here, I hope you know how fortunate you all are. There has been some really great stuff put forth by all the contributors here, Guru, Dart, Bio, BP, and others, and great feedback from the posters here about what is working and what is not..

I turned on the TV and watched one of the European Tour events a couple days ago for about 30 minutes, and it was really shocking to see these pros just spraying the ball all over the course, missing greens by 20 yards, drivers going into other fairways.. not very impressive, even with all the modern gear….. it almost made me think I should go back out on tour.. Darren Clarke was the only guy that seemed to be in control of his golf ball.. maybe I just caught a bad 30 minutes.

From what I hear, Haney can play, the rumors are because for about 10 years or so he suffered from a really bad case of the driver yips. Only the driver, so he basically stopped playing golf because he could not get off the tee. He fixed that, and I understand he is about a plus one or so now.

Kostis has worked with a lot of tour players for years now, has a pretty good rep as a teacher to that level of talent. I think he knows his stuff, has been exposed to MORAD via McCord. You can’t make an accurate judgment based on a few quick comments on a tv broadcast. I know he worked for many years in the Golf Digest schools learning his craft.

The teaching problem is a real one, I don’t think we will see a major improvement at the mass level of teaching in our lifetime. Too many factors in place to keep things the way they are.

If I was an average golfer looking to improve via instruction, I would ask around my community, “who is getting results” with their students. The good teachers always rise to the top in any community mainly due to good word of mouth and referalls. And I would interview the teacher and tell them that I am looking for radical change over the long haul – not a quick fix. You will open a lot of doors with any good teacher by saying that.

Breaking new guys…

Titanium stocks plunge at market opening!

I just bought 10,000 shares of Louisville Persimmon this morning!

BPGS1,

I heard that a guy named Jim Waldron is the dog’s bollocks at golf instruction; really knows his shit.

What say you?

Tai?

Lag,
I recon you could go back on tour and clean up, when I went to the Australian Masters. I was horrified how poorly they compressed the ball. They all had high and weak flight. Wasn’t very windy and their ball was getting blown all over the shown. The only guy who impressed me with compression was Daly. I think the teaching methods are to blame, this Stack and tilt crap, edwin stuff and the modrn day upright swing.
From our research we found players don’t swing it as pure as they use to.
I felt I could of went out there and been competitive, next year I recon I could give it a good nudge and win the aussie open after watching these young guys.

I thought these really show the difference in hinging, yet both offer similar ball flight. The SF fog makes a great backdrop for the golf ball!

It’s been 20 years since I just let my arms fly off the body like this into a full roll hinging action, actually it felt kinda nice, although I don’t think I could trust it under pressure.

Hitting feels like walking across a 12” board that is laying on the ground. Swinging feels like the same board stretched across the grand canyon with a big trusty balance pole in my hands.. it should be easier right? lol

Great visuals Lag – definitely one to squirrel away…!

Cheers, Arnie

P.S Just a thought – do you think that thicker (less tapered grips) are beneficial for angled hinging?

Great Photo Lag!

Here’s another guy a nanosecond later..No arms, no club in view..

I thought these really show the difference in hinging, yet both offer similar ball flight. The SF fog makes a great backdrop for the golf ball!

It's been 20 years since I just let my arms fly off the body like this into a full roll hinging action, actually it felt kinda nice, although I don't think I could trust it under pressure.

Hitting feels like walking across a 12” board that is laying on the ground. Swinging feels like the same board stretched across the grand canyon with a big trusty balance pole in my hands.. it should be easier right? lol

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

What are these two different style of hinges called? Ironically I was having a view of my release and debating this with an instructor last night.

left is angled, right is horizontal.

(I think)

left is angled, right is horizontal.

(I think)

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

– Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

– Helen Keller

You’re getting the hang of it.

For me, and I think most, the angled hinging promotes quicker rotation.

One of Mac’s “secret” (everything is a secret now! lol) MORAD analogies was to keep the hands in closer to the body by way of packed upper arms on the chest. The idea is that the closer your hands are, the faster you can rotate, in the same way a figure skater will pull their arms in close to the body as they go into a spin. It does work..

In these photos I am trying to turn just as fast in both pics, but you can see I am more rotated (torso) on the left photos with the hitting and angle hinge, than the swinging horizontal hinge.

These two shots end up going about the same distance.

There is a real yin – yang thing going on..

The club wants to fly out to the right with the CF…
the photos on the left, I am pulling it out of it’s CF orbit,
which slows the club down, but…... I am rotating faster in doing so..
So it ends up being about the same result.

The photos on the left however, put a lot more feel in my hands via
the CF resistance.

The feeling is similar to an iron ball swinging around you on a chain.
The hit feels like you’re holding on, the swing feels like you’re letting go at impact.

Yes, left is angled, right is horizontal.

First of all, I want to say thankyou to Lagpressure, Dart, Bio, and many others for this great thread. I’ve just come across this site and spent the last week reading through all 61 pages of posts.

I am a true hitter, although I am more of a hands controlled pivot. To me this doesn’t mean I don’t think pivot is important. It’s extremely important, but I use to have a problem with the lower body running off and leaving the arms behind. This created a lot of blocks and snaphooks from me in my effort to catch up.

Now all science aside, I have some questions…I’m a 6 handicap and want to get to scratch this summer.

1. I notice lagpressure has a lower hands setup than most hitters, I’m guessing this is because you want a more active pivot.

2. I also notice, lagpressure does not setup with a somewhat closed clubface? I thought this was prescribed to hitters because of the closing/layback action of an angled hinge that provides for a standard fade ballflight. Can you give some detail on your thoughts around setup.

3. Lagpressure, do you carry the power package back with right forearm pickup or use your pivot more?

4. Lastly, how do you deal with wristcock? I have no doubt Hogan used some hitting action, but I thought a hitter should setup with an uncocked /forward pressed left wrist, carried to the top, and then drove back down to low point. I get in trouble then I go beyond the top, the weight of the club cocks my wrist and when I drive down, the face stays slightly too open.

Anyway, thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments on the above and how you feel you should properly execute a hitting motion.

First, let me say, I put very little emphasis on the setup. I can start literally with my hands anywhere, up, down, forward, back, or have my stance open, closed, hips, shoulders aiming anywhere, and hit pure golf shots.

What I do need to know is my target line, my intended initial flight line,
and most importantly my low point.

Once I set up my “T” square, position my body over my 90 degree low point reference line, my brain calculates the variance between flight line and target line, therefore telling me how much draw or fade to put on the shot to get the ball curving toward the target.

I really believe if you get your P3 alignments correct, and you learn how to work your pivot and hands from there to P4, you’ll gravitate toward the right set up very naturally for yourself.

There are many in the TGM camp that believe hitting means you just slap your right arm at the ball without much pivot… and that swinging is all pivot and no right arm.. This is not correct.

Hitting and swinging differ in their application of use… either radial or longitudinal acceleration. There is a lot on that earlier in this thread.

The right arm participation varies greatly between hitting and swinging.

A frozen right arm feel from P3 to P4 is ideal for a hitter, because this gets the shaft moving on a true plane by way of radial acceleration, maintains wrist cock longer, and discourages closing of the clubface. The CF fight, pulling the club out of orbit, tends to slow the club down, but the hitter can rotate faster to compensate, and with a closer hand position, this is both possible and practical. Throw in some 5th accumulator action and now the hitter can rival the velocity of the swinger, and also have better control of the golf ball I believe.

The relaxed right arm of the swinger is pulled off the body by the throw out action of CF, which automatically closes the clubface into a full roll horizontal hinge.

I set up fairly close, just enough to feel the packing of the upper arms on the chest. I like to feel that is established.

I like the clubface if anything open because at P3 I really like to have it open, to encourage by pivot the fire quick to close it.

I take the club back with the pivot and right arm folding in unison and as interrelated and connected as possible

As far as wrist cock, I assume you are talking about what goes on at transition. I like things to be very quiet at the top of the swing. Snap and float loading is great if not required for good swinging procedure, but since I like to stress the shaft at the bottom, too much loading at the top makes it impossible for me to maintain shaft flex all the way to the ball, so I avoid that as much as I can. Late loading still tries to creep into my swing from time to time, so I always have to keep my eye on that. (reformed swinger!)

tball88, if you are really a hitter, I’d stop thinking about the backswing and the top, and start figuring out how you can increase your post impact velocity, acceleration, rotational speed and so forth so you can bring a pre stressed clubshaft into impact.

I’m definitely a hitter. I’m longer than probably 9/10 guys I play with and I’m only 5’5 170 lbs, so I don’t get a lot of club speed due to my large swing arc:). I have actually worked with both Lynn Blake and Brian Manzella.

Your responses definitely help answer some questions for me, especially your comments about loading, I’ve found that loading at the tops causes all kinds of issues for me as a hitter.

I’m stuggling still with understanding how you square the face. As a hitter, I believe according to the golfing machine, my hip action is to first slide, then turn. For me, as I drive the right arm down with my initial hip slide, and then turn, I’ll just be late squaring the face, unless I actually employ a horizontal hinge. However, If I employ a horizontal hinge, it can be fore left.

I have trouble getting anything but a fade ball flight with an angle hinge, unless I close the clubface. It seems you’re using your pivot to work the ball with an angled hinge, and I’m just having trouble visualizing how you do it.

First of all, I want to say thankyou to Lagpressure, Dart, Bio, and many others for this great thread. I've just come across this site and spent the last week reading through all 61 pages of posts.

wow!

how long did that take?

I can’t imagine rereading it all, I’m just waiting for everyone’s book to come out!

tball88,

You can square the clubhead with a flatter torso rotation, and a NON AUTOMATIC hand firing… but this has to be done at exactly the right time. Once you get a feel for it, you can use it from tee to green.. (not on the green!)

I’d really have to see your swing of course.. I am reluctant these days to give drill advice over an open forum because it’s really like writing a prescription.. everyone is different..

Everything I have seen on Manzella, which isn’t much, is that he loves the swinging protocol. He seems to be heavily influenced by the Doyle camp… which is good…. if you’re swinging..

Whatever you’re doing sounds like an easy fix though…

I would agree and say that Brian is definitely more of a swing technique, but his “Manzella Matrix” really has multiple swing models.

I guess if I I were explaining my swing, I’d say I have a strong Single Action Grip, right forearm takeaway, and really beat down on the ball. In my mind, I’m thinking drive my hands past my left leg. I set up with a closed clubface and play a left to right ball flight.

My question isn’t so much as to how to fix my swing, I’m just trying to better understand how you can work the ball both ways with an angled hinge? I thought by rule an angled hinge because of the closing/layback action, always resulted in a fade ball flight.

Is your standard shot a fade?

Lag,

Will your book provide instruction for both hitting and swinging, or just for hitting? Thank you.

rteach1

Yes both hitting and swinging equally.

They are both viable ways to strike a golf ball… both hitters and swingers have won the great tests of golf.

I can work it both ways with ease.. but if I really go after a drive hard I tend to draw the ball… of course it is harder to hold the angle hinge to P4 with a driver..

My tendency changes from time to time, not sure I swing the club from day to day exactly the same..

Sam Snead said it best..

“Dance with the gal yer brought”

That’s interesting. When you say it’s hard to hold the angle hinge into P4, do you think you may horizontal hinge just a bit, which is giving you the draw action, or do you still have a no roll sensation all the way to finish?

Also, I found your comments on Doyle interesting. I actually worked with him for a couple of days, and he was trying to get me into a deep pitch elbow position with a swinging motion.

It just didn’t work for me, but I could tell there were a lot of dynamics going on in what he was trying to teach.

Welcome tball88. You have travelled the TGM extremes from BD to BM to LB.

I always find it interesting that swingers are thought to have no right side thrust by those who only tinker with TGM. Homer stated very early on that hitting or swinging the right arm is always thrusting. Its only how that thrust is being utilised that has caused so much confusion.

Tball88,
Why would you want to lateral slide for? a hitter the last thing he wants is to have a lateral slide

What does he want to have. Thought you said swingers and hitters both need the same motion a while back?

tball88,

Here is a draw with an angle hinge using a driver..

This was a huge effort for me to pull it out of orbit.. but this is how I like to play golf, a BIG effort creates only as small action on the ball, this is a 10 yard draw…

Lag what is your ‘different’ thought while performing that driver draw? Are you aiming more inside the ball? Starting with the face a few degrees closed? Turning later? Spill the beans!

I’m guessing here but it looks like you have your right foot a bit back (might be camera angle). It seems you fire your hips very late on the downswing. I assume it’s a hard fire, but is it any later than a ‘normal’ shot?

Stance has nothing to do with drawing or fading the ball, I can work it either way from any stance…. The key is understanding low point geometry and the difference between plane line and target line.

These are the typical ways most people deal with ball control…. (take a “draw” example)

Draw the ball with clubhead throwaway (bad idea)
Roll the hands over into the ball (too tough to time it)
Move the ball more forward in the stance allowing the clubface more time to close (too many thin shots)
AIm right, close the clubface, re grip the club, swing as normal (weight of the clubhead now feels different spacially)

I rarely do any of these..

As a hitter, the best way for me to work the ball is through deliberately manipulating wrist cock, post impact.. but it’s hard to explain exactly how it’s done, because this technique requires perfect swing plane paths from P3 to impact….

I haven’t talked a lot about this because very few people’s golf swings would be ready for this.. for one, you would HAVE to be a hitter.

The best thing about this is that you don’t have to change anything, not ball position, not stance line, not clubface position at address, grip, clubhead rotating, or any crazy timing stuff..

But if you don’t really understand and apply proper 4:30 on the ball alignments at P3 it’s won’t work. It’s advanced ball striking tactics for sure, and pretty much fool proof… it’s a great way to work the ball.

The torso has to be turning pretty level through the ball, you can’t be buying into any kind of “dead hands” stuff.. the hands and body have to be working together properly or this will not work…
Again, your P3 lines have to be in place and solid…

I’ll try to put up some pics to show the difference if I can find something…

Guru,
What’s your point here? Hitters and swingers do have the same body motion,when understand human body motion and the physics of human body motion, you soon learn they are the same movement pattern.It’s in the book too.
But when someone says they are a hitter and have a lateral slide they can’t be using a true effective hitting pattern. Not hard to work this out why either.

What does he want to have. Thought you said swingers and hitters both need the same motion a while back?

You are the guru mate…Do you not have the answer? When are you going to stop. I will never, um ever. I will be here all the time…You have no idea…This is comical…Lossssssser..

hitlong22 (?Tai)

Were you born a TWAT? Or, have you spent your entire lifetime refining such skills?

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Its good to see you still have your subtle sense of humor! Might be too subtle for this one. :D

Obviously 22 does not understand the word facilitate. Or, for that matter, why this forum works so well.

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Its good to see you still have your subtle sense of humor! Might be too subtle for this one. :D

Obviously 22 does not understand the word facilitate. Or, for that matter, why this forum works so well.

I think 22 is his I.Q!

We have missed you!

Probably best asked in a new thread but, how was your session with LBG and the gang?

Guru, first of all thanks for the welcome.

A couple of points of clarification here, and hopefully I can learn something new.

1. While many equate Swinging to pulling with the left side, I agree there is some right side(but not arm) assistance. When swinging, I try to think of the right shoulder as a flywheel that’s throwing the left arm off of my chest.(got this from Lynn Blake).

2. Bio, For hitting, I open my hips slightly, and have a very slight bump laterally to initiate the downswing. For me, this allows the arms to time to drive down and through the ball. So for me it’s a very slight bump and then turn from a slightly open(delayed Hip action/also helps me stop my backswing at the top) hipped alignment. If turn hard with the hips to initiate the downswing, I can get fore right in a hurry.

3. Obviously lagpressure, is doing something different to create ball flight, if he has a true angled hinge/which is naturally a slice producing motion. I’m just trying to better understand what he is saying when he says he pulls it out or orbit.

Great thread…

a flywheel that's throwing the left arm off of my chest….

there you have it right there…
correct, swingers allow the arms to fly off the chest after impact…
the right arm straightens both by the pull of CF but also the dump of extensor action. The arc widens for a swinger, it’s elongated, expanded. If you let go of the club at impact, it will bounce off the ground, and move away from you.right down the 4:30 line.. hence the term down and out… it really wants to bury into the ground, then go down and away from you… just try it.. go out and let go of the club at impact, you’ll see quickly where the club goes.

Now when I say “I pull it out of orbit”, I mean as a hitter I DON’T want the club moving away from me.. I fight the CF (force) and re route that force into a true down the line on plane.. so you see the club “cut left” after impact, because this is actually where true “on plane” should go..

Flat shoulders, upper arms packed upon the body, quick post impact acceleration, these are your tools to get this done..

Angle hinging works well with the hitters radial acceleration, while duel horizontal hinging is the natural choice for swingers..

If your arms are relaxed noodles, wrists are free, oily, flexible, horizontal hinging just happens.. it’s not something you try to “do”
The true non intervention automatic release… beautiful stuff really..

Hogan on the left is pulling the club out of orbit… he’s pulling it left around the body, while Armour lll on the right is just free wheeling it, and letting it go… arms flying off the body…

Now remember, when you pull on something, especially hard, what happens? It creates pressure in your hands right? and that pressure in your hands is what? Feel maybe?

As far as working the ball…

I’ll need photos to show how a hitter can draw and fade without having to flip or roll, dump or move ball placement around…

Lag, I think I’m starting to get there.

Do you get the club out of orbit, by keeping the left arm tight to the body(I believe you said packed), and then folding the left arm, ie lifting the club to where both arms are folded with a higher hand finish?

Sounds like you’re actually lifting the club by folding the arms after impact, as opposed to horizontal hinging or rolling.

Let me know if I’m off base.

br>correct, swingers allow the arms to fly off the chest after impact…
the right arm straightens both by the pull of CF but also the dump of extensor action. The arc widens for a swinger, it's elongated, expanded. I mean as a hitter I DON'T want the club moving away from me.. I fight the CF (force) and re route that force into a true down the line on plane..

Lag in working with you the newer sensation I’ve had, which could be wrong is the first part of the downswing definitely feels more down, then the second phase is around, and that is when I feel I am fighting CF… not only after impact. It feels like there’s a direction change in there halfway down that causes a resistance, and lag as well.

This change in direction seems to also result in a sweeping action. The older, down the line move I had was definitely steeper.

Flat shoulders, upper arms packed upon the body, quick post impact acceleration, these are your tools to get this done..

Angle hinging works well with the hitters radial acceleration, while duel horizontal hinging is the natural choice for swingers..

This is something you’ve said a few times that I have trouble getting consistency with. Even when I look at that picture of Hogan and Armour, I see two fairly steep shoulder angles.

My impact bag drills show me having a fairly horizontal shoulder turn. When reviewing all my recent hitting video (with ball) I wouldn’t really consider my shoulder motion ‘horizontal’ or level until I get up to woods/driver length. It just seems the shoulder mimics or dictates the plane, which gets flatter as the club gets longer. In other words a wedge shows me with quite a steep shoulder attack. What am I missing here?

Are you just saying that if a hitter and swinger are both swinging the same club, the hitter will appear to have a more horizontal shoulder action than the swinger?

< I fight the CF (force) and re route that force into a true down the line on plane.. so you see the club ’Äúcut left” after impact, because this is actually where true ’Äúon plane” should go..

We have missed you!

Probably best asked in a new thread but, how was your session with LBG and the gang?

Spike,

Ask Guru to pass you my Email address and then mail me.
I will give you a full run down.

Guru,
What's your point here? Hitters and swingers do have the same body motion,when understand human body motion and the physics of human body motion, you soon learn they are the same movement pattern.It's in the book too.
But when someone says they are a hitter and have a lateral slide they can't be using a true effective hitting pattern. Not hard to work this out why either.

The shift of a swinger and hitter is aimed in a different direction (book = parallel or cross line) and at different speeds. There area heap of similarities of course.

What do you call a Lateral Slide? From what I read you seem to infer a Lateral Sway which is a different thing altogether and of course an issue for any golfer.

Lag,

As a hitter how important is it to attack the ball at 4.30?

When I attack it at 4.30 and forget to roll/release my wrists it’s a slight push fade, however, when I really roll the wrists it’s a beautiful 5-10m draw & like a bullet. I find when attacking at 4.30, I feel that my club is so far behind my body that my shoulders automatically roundhouse causing me to hit the ball at 3.00, with no release this becomes a little slice & with a lot of release/roll a pull draw.

What drill can I work on to ingrain the 4.30 attack without feeling stuck?

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Its good to see you still have your subtle sense of humor! Might be too subtle for this one. :D

Obviously 22 does not understand the word facilitate. Or, for that matter, why this forum works so well.

Spike,

There are a lot of words he doesn’t understand.

Referring to Snead, (Wilkie)

It seems that to achieve this, he is not fully uncocking his left wrist and is keeping the shaft on plane through to P4 and beyond. Yes this is correct…

Phantom,

You need to aim at 4:30 either as a hitter or swinger… but you must first determine for certainty if your basic procedure is that of a swinger or a hitter…

It sounds like you might have some issues there… steady even acceleration, with free oily wrists will release the club for you without effort if done properly.. (swinging)

Hitting:
Check out 10-24-D in TGM book. Hitting using non automatic snap release.. “Deliberate whiplash type of motion” This is the Hogan move. This is the secret to the re routing I talk about and the concept that has been driving (The Forum Brainiac) crazy.

You have to understand that the swing plane from P3 to P4 is quite different from swinger to hitter. This is defined by both the path of the hands and the clubhead..

If you twirl a ball around on a chain, it moves in a circle. The less
the movement of the hands, the purer the circle… If you move your
hands in an oval, the ball will still swing, but the path changes…
Now if you let go of the chain, the ball flies away from you… so this is the feeling of swinging, letting it go.. while hitting you hold it tight and keep spinning. Both balls on the chain will hurt you if you get in the way, whether it has been cut loose or is held in a tight circle.

This is what we see in the Hogan-Armour photo…

I have promised Paul S that I wouldn’t participate in this forum because my opinions (especially when I contradict Lagpressure) tends to excite counterattacks.

However, I seriously believe that Lagpressure’s depiction of a swinger’s action is not reflective of “reality” as taught by Homer Kelley in the TGM.

HK stated that a swinger must always keep the clubshaft on-plane during the downswing and followthrough and finish. That plane is the elbow plane for most golfers – between the P3 and P4 position. In other words, a swinger should never have a “feeling” of letting it go – towards the target, and he should always make sure that he keeps his followthrough swing “tight” so that he can keep the clubshaft against the inclined plane (elbow plane) post-impact until he reaches the P4 position.

Here is a swing video of Anthony Kim’s driver swing – note how he pivots well through impact and keeps his clubshaft on the elbow plane post-impact. To achieve that goal, he has to move his hands inside post-impact to keep the clubshaft traveling on the elbow plane from impact to the P4 position.

Anthony Kim

After the P4 position the clubshaft plane will steepen and it will be on a steeper plane (roughly on the turned shoulder plane) by the late finish.

Anthony Kim, a swinger, has a perfect on-plane swing – during his backswing, downswing and followthrough/finish. There is no sense that he is letting his clubshaft go—towards the target. He is swinging his clubhead in a circular orbit, and that goal should be a swinger’s desired intent and final result (if his intent is perfectly executed).

Jeff.

It is not always textbook TGM. It is Lags take on how he sees ‘golf’ rather than TGM working hence a heap of leeway.

Why did Homer take so much time to teach people that a Turned Shoulder Plane was so good rather than an Elbow Plane?

I have promised Paul S that I wouldn't participate in this forum because my opinions (especially when I contradict Lagpressure) tends to excite counterattacks.

Why would you break a promise to Paul?

Smithy is a good man and deserves better.

Jeff,
Apologize to Lag cause your are incorrect,
Your not Anthony Kym so how do you Know his intent. Let me tell u now, I won’t get into Anthony’s data but Anthony’s full intention is to let the club shaft go towards the target, Your looking at 2d it won’t tell u the real story.
You just don’t get it do you Jeff, you miss what Lag is trying to do is educate people the feelings and how to make it happen. Lag is talking about what to do in motion not position golf.
Who cares about positions , it achieves nothing, Anthony Kym ain’t thinking about positions or never works on positions , never has and never will.
Who cares about positions, the big question is how do you get into these positions,
Ahh Lag , you were describing how to get into these positions, please continue

Why did Homer take so much time to teach people that a Turned Shoulder Plane was so good rather than an Elbow Plane?

Guru, I wasn’t aware of Homer teaching that, but I could not agree more…. that if you want to swing, this is the way to do it… Moe Norman.

I think it’s the only way to do it…

My Golf Swing 2009

Today was my first round of the year, I shot some vids the other day out on the course, but today I decided to just go out and play…

On the 15th hole I realized my camera was still in my bag, so I took a video to see what the swing would look like on the way to a 67.

Just looped it tonight for fun…

Nothing screams swinging more than this photo of Tommy Armour lll.
Arms blast off the body, full roll dual horizontal hinging. The free noodle arms, free wrists, down and out.

If Armour were to “Hogan it” hard left after impact, his right arm would have to stay bent much longer, upper arms would have to be packed upon the body, and you wouldn’t see a full roll going on. The straightening of Armour’s right arm closes the clubface. The swing plane is much more inside out here. This is classic Ben Doyle, Greg McHatton stuff here… Armour is not a hitter. This is the polar opposite of how Hogan released the club. Armour’s torso turns just as flat as Hogans but he does not fight the throw out action of CF obviously. Hogan did however, big time.

Just when I think I know how to spot a swinger or a hitter, something else comes out.

Tommy Armour is a Stack and Tilter. S&T teaches an inside move on the ball towards impact. I can’t remember, but I think it’s 20*. The S&T guys also state this should be the exit angle after hitting the ball.

I would say that it’s very possible this is an older shot of TAIII, or he isn’t releasing with the S&T method. I don’t even really know if S&T is swinging or hitting, but I do know from the videos, that they want you bringing your arms back into you fairly rapidly after impact. See Mike Weir/ Aaron Baddely/ Charlie Wie for a better example (if anyone is curious). I do know TAIII has taken on the Stack and Tilt teachings now.

lagpressure, I tried what you said about pulling the club out of orbit, high hands, and keeping the arms packed in.

Wow, all I can say is I never felt like I would hook or lose the ball left. I think I could draw the ball, but only very slightly, as I would have to roll the hands slightly, but still finish high.

A fade was definitely my natural ball flight with this motion.

I think what I liked the most about it, was the pulling out of orbit motion, made it almost impossible to flip, and I really liked taking the left side out of play.

LOL – thought you meant Tai was using S&Tilt:)

I think it would be helpful – especially for average golfers – for Lag and others here to list all of the major elements of swinging and hitting as they understand them. And how they might differ from TGM. We need to be on the same page linguistically for this discussion to be really useful.

My own view is that there are Four Swing Styles, not two. What distinguishes them is the Whole Pivot Motion in terms of range of motion, plane, width of arms and tempo, and how much right spine tilt is employed; the Body Release procedure or Pivot Thrust used – including the amount of arm to chest connection pressure – and when it is triggered, and the Lever Angles release procedure employed, ie passive, active or a blend of each, and when it is triggered. Each Style is a blend of those three major elements that determine the uniqueness of that style. Body type is also a major influence.

Hogan used a Spin Style with a late body thrust “hit” action during Release, with a wrist throw and forearm/upper left arm half roll as a secondary power source. His right arm angle did not change from P3 to impact on most shots, or at least very little change, meaning he did not use a right arm hammer hit action during impact.

Anthony Kim uses a Swinger style or more accurately a “spin and swing” method as do most tour pros. Moderate right spine tilt, medium connection pressure, moderate pivot thrust.

Colin Montgomerie today and the young Nicklaus used a Throwing style, most right spine tilt, arms off chest blast off after impact, leg drive,usually a full roll of forearms, usually a passive release or a blend, minimal connection pressure.

Craig Stadler is a Hitter – active upper arms across chest lateral motion during release (no connection pressure), small but fast lateral weight shift during release, less range of pivot motion due to flexibility issues, hammer hit action of right arm during release, 3/4 backswing, fast tempo.

Hitters have fast tempo and shorter backswings, Throwers have very upright and long backswings, and a slower tempo. Spinners have 3/4 or slightly longer backswings and a medium to fast tempo. Swingers have a parallel or slightly short of it backswing and a medium tempo.

Spinners have a flatter plane both ways with least amount of right spine tilt and are very open with the hips and shoulders at impact. Swingers are similar, but not quite as open. Hitters are least open at impact, Throwers are a close second.
Hitters and Throwers use a steeper plane.

Flexible golfers or ectomorphs will tend to be Throwers or Swingers. Endomorphs or inflexible golfers will tend to be Hitters. Strong in the Core and flexible golfers who are 5’10” or shorter can use the Spin style, medium flexible golfers will use the Swinger style.

Knowing the main elements of the four Styles makes it a lot easier to have an intelligent conversation of the pros and cons of each. I highly recommend the book The Laws of Golf by Tomasi, Suttie and Adams for an excellent description of Throwing, Hitting and Swinger Styles.

Linguistically speaking that is why we in here attempt to standardise most terms into TGMs descriptions. In this thread there are a few mind stretches required as Lag has leeway to use his feel and takes on things that he learned via TGM coaches that do not necessarily translate from is works into those coaches language:)

Swing your arms off your chest or drive them off the chest with right arm thrust, a swinger spins around like a graceful looking golfer. A hitter drives out to right field and sort of comes to a great halt with a follow through that is almost an after thought. Snead and Hogan vs Trevino and Palmer.

BPGS1

I really like your definitions for the swing style types. I too have Suttie’s other Your Perfect Swing and found it very helpful..

FWIW though, I vote for linguistic sake that we stay with the two definitions that Lag described at length in the very first part of this thread CP vs. CF..Hitting vs. Swinging..or if you let go of the club right after impact where would it go? left and in the air for hitting and down along the ground to the right for swinging..

And Lag congrats on your 67!...I still look forward to your pictures for the draw move when you have a chance..

Lag…..oh yeah!

You can really see Peter Senior all over the follow through and some Hogan in the back move. Very cool. Doesn’t look like much can break down.

I’m curious about the knee action in the back move. It is quite big and Hoganesque. Do you use this to accommodate the wide stance for better pivot?

Can that knee action be minimized or would it throw the whole move off?

Also, the slight lagging clubhead takeaway…is that done with your hands or pivot or both?

Lag…sorry. after re-watching your swing I take back the knee action comment. It seems to be only reactionary and not as big as I thought. It matches your foot work perfectly.

I’m a little obsessed with the left knee moving too early and too much to the inside….but yours does not…apologies…I don’t want to open a can of worms.

Guys

These are notes I wrote to myself after a few good practice sessions and 4 rounds in the mid 70’s in order for me to try to “right the ship” when things go awry (they always do for me).
I have tried to take advantage of lags, BP’s, guru’s, and others knowledge when writing this.
Can you please let me know if you think I am picturing this correctly or if I have flaws in my logic.
I have taken some video of my swing from in front and behind with a 4 iron (only 30FPS). I’ll provide a link if anyone cares to see them when I have put them on Youtube. I welcome your feedback.

Here goes:
The club and the left arm are on plane (imagine the plane board) from setup to the top of the backswing, but there is a plane shift halfway back( from P3).
At that point the shoulders turn which feels like the left arm and club are still on the same plane but moved away from the ball due to the shoulder rotation. There is NO manipulation of the club or hands due to this rotation. It is just part of the physical reality of turning the shoulders. It feels like the backswing has gone into a “deeper” position from where I can launch the downswing.
At the top of the swing, the left hand needs to felt at the front of the grip( closer to the ball) and the right hand AND folded arm( the tucked position I have been working on) behind the grip.
That same feeling of left hand in front/ right hand behind should be felt on the downswing with the left hand still cocked and the right hand bent back all the way until they(not the clubhead, which is lagging) pass the ball position.
It’s important that I start the downswing with a TURNING (not sliding) of the abs/hips, NOT the pull of the hands downwards. I haven’t quite worked out whether I should be pulling my left shoulder at the same time as the hips or waiting until my hands have dropped down to P3. I’ll keep experimenting on the feel.
The hands dropping down to P3 have been pulled forwards from the “deep” position closer to the target line, but not much closer to the target. I have used the left hand/arm to hold back the right side from firing until this point.
It is here that things seem to happen quickly. I try use use the *full length of the left arm as a lever and pull through the impact zone. When the hands are passing through here, I feel like my right hand/forearm is giving a secondary thrust to power the swing. The club feels weightless and I can feel the kick of the shaft.

• (I have a perpetual bad habit of pulling through with my left elbow instead of using my left shoulder. This reduces the leverage of the arm and also makes the arm shorter through impact because invariably the elbow will start to fold forwards bringing the hands into impact slightly higher than they should be resulting in a thin hit with “gawd awful” impact! )
  Because the hips started the downswing by turning, my hands will have passed the ball in a turned postion WITHOUT any active manipulation. By the time the clubhead hits the ball, the back of my right hand is facing away from the target and is still bent back. The back of my left hand is now facing the target and is still flat (FLW).

Cheers
Golfur66

The left arm is never on plane unless the angle of the club to left arm is zeroed out, i.e. totally uncocked left wrist or a palm grip.
The right forearm is on plane at impact.
The right forearm can’t be on plane until the right elbow is on plane.
The ideal plane is the “turned shoulder plane”, zero shift.
The left arm is inert, kept taut by a slight pressure of the right elbow always trying to straighten, just a bit. The left arm is a checkrein against the straightening right arm. See “Keep the Left Arm Straight” in the Golf School articles.
The amount of right wrist bend is the same as that observed in setting up in an impact condition, no more no less.
At the top, for a swinger, the right hand is under the grip not behind.
The right wrist is not cocked.
If you start the downswing with a turn of the hips you’ll come over the top.
There is no criteria for the left shoulder. It’s the right shoulder that needs to be on plane. If not some compensation will be required.
Keep the right shoulder back and down or you’ll run out of right arm before impact losing the lag.
This is all according to TGM (which is all I choose to know.)

Spike,…apologies…I don't want to open a can of worms.

What!?

Has Tai got kids now?

Lag,

Awesome posts. 63 pages of great info… I’m on #5 so I may have to quit my job to read it all… but then again, I quit my job 5 years ago for g.o.l.f so this wont be an issue.

I learned about ‘your 5th accumulator’ last year from my mentor in Canada. “the club moves faster after impact” I love that thought.

Thanks again.

Golfur66 – for the most part, your ideas seem sound. Although you need to be clear when you are describing your first person subjective feel sense perception about your swing versus what you see on the video. You do need – objectively – some degree of lateral shift of the hips to start Transition, not a lot, before the hips start to turn or as Loren said you will come OTT. But – you may need to FEEL like they are only turning. Depends on the individual golfers tendencies.

You want to use shoulders unwinding for sure as part of your downswing sequence – not just hips, the actual sequence is hips, belly, then shoulders. You can focus on either shoulder or the entire shoulder girdle, doesn’t matter which, the girdle is one piece.

You never should do anything independently with the arms to move the arms with the arm muscles in the downswing, I’m talking upper arms – not forearm roll. If you shift/tilt to right, then unwind properly, the arms/hands/clubs are brought down into the ideal hitting position at P3 automatically.

Only the Arm Swing Illusion makes us all think we need to “do something” with the arms to help out. We don’t….

Thanks Loren, BP

When I upload the swing sequence, if you don’t mind, could you see if it compares to what I think I’m doing and see if I do in fact have a slide before the turn of the hips. Any other observations would be most appreciated. I hope to upload them tonight sometime.

spike71,

One of the things you are seeing in my swing probably is the fact that I start at address with my right leg straight, pretty much locked all the way back.. I started doing this only this last year just as a drill because after not playing for 14 years, my hips and shoulders didn’t really like to turn as they used to, and since I have no interest in practicing, I felt it would be a good idea to just start there at address, essentially starting at address as I would be at the top.. I remembered Moe Norman telling me how he used to use his right leg as a post, it was also straight, but with Moe he had a wide stance so his legs were pretty straight..

The idea of having maximum hip slant at the top is that it allows for maximum shoulder rotation or torso rotation at the top… so maximum hip slat can only happen with a straight right leg at the top..

I just couldn’t believe how rock solid it felt just starting with the right leg straight at address and hips closed. It absolutely guarantees you end up at the same place every time at the top (the right knee and right hip) ..

What is more important than the backswing is… of course the downswing. I am a big believer in maximum body rotation in both directions, but MINIMUM hand travel. I really became aware of that watching Moe pure shot after shot.. His hands just don’t move back and forth very far… but what they DO is accelerate with great intensity. We see this too with Trevino and of course Hogan.

The key to minimum hand travel is great pivot rotation, because if you don’t have a great pivot happening, short hand travel means short golf shots..

The irony is that my quest for maximum shoulder rotation on the backswing is to minimize hand travel, not to maximize hand travel.
I take a big turn so I DON’T have to move the hands as much..

If I didn’t turn fully, I would then have to just move the arms and hands back with the body just passively following along. But I use my body to power both the backswing and the downswing..

When you see that little “lagging clubhead, on the takeaway, that is proof that the pivot is motoring the backswing, not the hands.

The finish is really just a mirror image of “intent” because I like to feel my pivot goes to a max rotation (finish) with minimum hand travel, (hands out in front of the chest, not behind my neck)

The body powers the swing, the arms are responsible for swing plane, and the hands do a quick velocity firing right before impact…
but for the most part the hands control the clubface alignments..

The right arm does a post impact firing into P4, and then the upper arms rip the club back up off the elbow plane in a last ditch effort to keep acceleration happening post impact (what I call the post impact 5th accumulator).

Golfur66,

seeing the video will really help..
it’s hard to fully understand some of the things you were saying… feeling… without seeing it..

take both front and down the line views would be great…

Golfur66,

seeing the video will really help..
it's hard to fully understand some of the things you were saying… feeling… without seeing it..

take both front and down the line views would be great…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Thanks for your input on the attached videos guys, I really do appreciate your feedback.

I know my hands get very high on the backswing and I have have tried hard to lower them, but it keeps recurring. I am 5’10” with a 6’2” arm span, so I don’t know if that makes it steeper.
Lag said that regardless of the backswing, it shouldn’t affect the business end of the swing if the fundamentals are right.
By the way, I always practice with no shoes on for better feel. You can see them move around a bit, but I never seem to slip on these smooth pavers.
Here you go, laugh away:

Cheers
Golfur66

Mashie72,

I haven’t forgotten you!

Pics of draw and fade releases are soon to come!

Golfur66

links are not showing up.. anyone else having luck?

Lag

They will work if you double click on them. I don’t know why they didn’t show as green links though. I clicked on the “Image Link” button to create them.
I’ll try again:
Golfur66 – Down the line view
Golfur66 – Front view

I don’t know if the clips will be of any use because they can’t be viewed frame by frame unless you download them and use a different viewer.
I have put up some of the original frames for a better look.
I haven’t put any of the backswing ones because even the Youtube clip shows how ordinary that looks.
I have uploaded the stills from the front view to see if they are any better.

Cheers

The bare foot golfer?!!

No expert at all so will defer to those qualified but my uneducated opinion is that on the backswing you need to keep turning your shoulders instead of lifting your arms.

Does anyone think Dane’s swing is a little bit like that of Jimmy Bruen’s we had on file a few pages back?

view it from about 1 minute 30

G66,

I think you have a nice natural rhythm and graceful flow in your swing..Not to steal anyone’s thunder but maybe these pictures might help in case anyone else is thinking similiar thoughts..

To me, you’re missing your P3 alignments..See with Hogan it looks like he intends to hit 4:30 on the ball and you’re more like 2:30…

So, I’d start in the Hogan picture and do Lag’s Impact bag drill…I bet if you practice this, your steepness will go away..

Quick and dirty 2 cents,

Mashie72

Golfur66 – here is my best advice. One – it is an extremely “armsy” swing, what I call a Throwing or Slinging swing style. You need to learn to Pivot better and tone down the arms as much as possible. It is off the charts too upright with left arm and shaft plane as you said. You are making this kind of swing because you are target line bound. Forget the idea of steering the ball straight and forget about the target line entirely, learn to make a circle with your body and clubhead.

Both those things can best be fixed the easiest and fastest way by working on your posture, you are way too upright. Bend over a lot more from your hip sockets and get some spine angle. Then work on pushing your arms away from your chest in the width dimension – NOT up toward the sky at all. Just feel about eight inches of movement in your hands away from your chest on a 45 degree angle to your right during takeaway segment. Once you have finished this segment, dont add ANY up motion with the arms. Just turn the shoulder girdle and chest to complete the backswing.

You could also do the baseball swing drill standing normally – no spine angle – and get the feeling of a lot more circular swing shape from much more body rotation, then gradually lower into a spine angle as you keep making the baseball swings.

I would recommend only working on these things and forget about the more advanced Transition and Impact stuff you were talking about in your last post. First things first!

G66,
Go catch up with fergi at Albert Park and when I get back from America on the 29th , I would like to catch up with you. I think you have some great stuff going on and your developing well.
You can see your getting pressure against the shaft from the start of your downswing and there is some at impact very good sign you have some great stuff going on.
I believe you could turn into a very graceful float loader, like Freddy Couples. So for now leave your back swing as is as this could turn into a very pure and fluent motion
.
My Advice don’t change anything go see fergi, tell him Bio sent you and fergi and I will catch up with you and sort you out.

Thanks for the advice guys

I told you it was dingo ugly on the back swing!
I’ll try your rotary movements BP.
Would this explain why I am very hot and cold with my driver, but I can hit my resue wood with ease around 240-250m?
I had someone ages ago tell me to try and feel like my backswing had to fit under a tree branch.
Bio, I’ll get in touch with Fergie and wait for you to come back to Melbourne. I don’t know his details, so I’ll give you mine; golfur@gmail.com. If you could please drop me a line so I can get in touch with both of you.

Cheers
Golfur66

Golfur66 – working with a good TGM or similar coach is for sure the best thing you could possibly do for your game. Same advice to any one else reading this forum. The longer clubs are certainly much less forgiving with such a steep swing, since you need a shallower angle of attack with those longer clubs compared to a shorter club.

You should take a look at top of backswing pictures of most tour pros – not the obvious exceptions like Olin Browne (too flat) or Furyk (too upright). Most have their left forearm/wrist region right on or very close to the Turned Right Shoulder Plane, or a line drawn from the tip of the right shoulder down to the target line. With a flat or nearly flat left wrist. On the same spine angle they started on at address. Change the spine angle and this checkpoint for left arm and shaft plane is meaningless.

BP and others

Aside from the work I need to do on the backswing, do you see many things wrong from the top of the backswing through to followthrough(both arms extended prior to P4)?
It would be nice to know that something in the swing is ok.

G66,

I think you have a nice natural rhythm and graceful flow in your swing..Not to steal anyone's thunder but maybe these pictures might help in case anyone else is thinking similiar thoughts..

To me, you're missing your P3 alignments..See with Hogan it looks like he intends to hit 4:30 on the ball and you're more like 2:30…

Thanks Mashie
I’ll try that. I have always felt like I can never start the downswing “deep” enough.
Mmmm, which of my kids should I use as the impact bag this week? ;)

view it from about 1 minute 30

Thanks for the video Styles. When I look at his swing, I can feel it like it was mine. One thing sticking out to me is, as the hands drop, the club hinges back even more. I looked at mine and the same thing happens with the high hands too.
I assume this is what Bio means when he says that I’m float loading?

You should take a look at top of backswing pictures of most tour pros – not the obvious exceptions like Olin Browne (too flat) or Furyk (too upright). Most have their left forearm/wrist region right on or very close to the Turned Right Shoulder Plane, or a line drawn from the tip of the right shoulder down to the target line. With a flat or nearly flat left wrist. On the same spine angle they started on at address. Change the spine angle and this checkpoint for left arm and shaft plane is meaningless.

BP

Does these picture of Sam Snead and Ben Hogan (third pic)adequately convey what you mean by getting to TRSP at the top of the backswing?

BP

Does these picture of Sam Snead and Ben Hogan (third pic)adequately convey what you mean by getting to TRSP at the top of the backswing?

Sorry, I believe the second set of pics is Mac Ogrady??

It’s early Hogan..

I’ve been reading one of Snead’s books on instruction…

Here are a few quotes from the man who had the most amazing career in golf.. winnning more PGA Tour titles than anyone in history, and by far having the longest competitive playing career
in history:

“You need to sense the target in relation to the ball
The ball in relation to your body.
A sense of what shot you intend to produce”.

“Find the swing that “feels” you”

“I had no pre conceived notions of form before I began playing, only to hit the ball hard and long”.

“The grip should be snug without inhibiting fluid hand and wrist action, the most basic in all basics of golf”.

“After the club reaches waist level, then the wrists can un-cock. At this point, the golf swing becomes a series of reflex actions where conscious thoughts won’t have an effect. It is then that the right hand pours it on. This also helps to square the clubface”.

“The pouring on of the right hand through impact is so distinct a sensation that I feel I am making the clubhead chase the ball so fast right on through impact that it feels it might almost catch up to the ball!”.

“I recommend the initial hip movement of the downswing give the feeling of a slight sitting down. This sensation indicates you’re not spinning out with too much hip movement. The slight forward movement of the hips at the start of the downswing is not for the conscious thought. If your intentions are right, it will happen automatically”.

“The right shoulder should tuck under the chin at the moment of impact”.

“Your feet govern the pivot”.

“I like to dig into the ground with my right foot during the downswing. I keep my right foot on the ground to make sure I don’t spin my body too quickly”.

“I once suggested to Tony Penna that he try hitting the ball with only his feet”.

“Golfers from Walter Hagan to Jack Nicklaus in the 70’s have complained about their legs feeling dead on certain days, and not being able to play worth a damn as a result”.

“I use a 9 degree persimmon driver (1975 at age 63)”.

“My average of 33 putts per round keeps my game competitive on tour”.

This last stat is really interesting… in 2008 the 176th guy on the money list was under 30 putts per round… 71.5 stroke average.
It really shows how the game has evolved into so much more of a putting contest.

Obviously the greens were not as good back then. So when you see a 66 from Snead or Nicklaus, or anyone from that era, it really shows how close those guys were hitting it.

SNAFU…

Hi Tai Bye TAI,still having great solo sex…PO

Golfur66 – yes to Snead, although I could not see where the line went at the bottom of the picture, I assume to the target line. I have some Snead photos where his left forearm is a little above the line, but not by much. We like to see it no higher than 4 inches above ideally, and then only for taller golfers over 6 feet. The others are early Hogan as Lag said and he is right on it. Later Hogan would be usually a little bit under it, he flattened his swing after the accident.

You’ve got good lag and don’t appear to have much if any Hit Impulse – a very, very good thing! Great tempo and rhythm too. Just too upright a plane, too much lateral sway both ways, arms are disconecting through impact,not enough turn, and not from lack of flexibility I am guessing. You look very flexible.

Number one thing if you were my student would be Setup, especially a lot more Spine Angle and the three Postural Braces, get some inward tension/pressure in your legs, suck the belly toward the spine.

Number Two would be the Circle drill and related drills, free up your mind from any kind of straight line mental pictures and learn to make a circle.

Lag – thanks for the Snead qoutes, haven’t thought about some of those in years, makes me think it must have really influenced my thinking almost unconsciously, the stuff on the right foot and feet especially. I know he did hit a lot of balls barefoot in order to feel better his feet to ground connection. Here is another Snead, one of my favorites.

“Everyone always said I had the most “natural swing”, but nobody practiced longer and harder than I did. I would practice and play all day from sunup to sundown, then go back to the range after playing my round, and hit balls after dark by the light of my car’s headlights until my hands bled. So much for the notion of my “natural” swing.”

Ok, can anyone guess who this is? and what year was this, circa?
Certainly ahead of their time…

If you really want to destroy your golf swing, I saw one of these on ebay yesterday…! lol

One of these would destroy your swing? Damn, that’s the mental image I have when I swing!

The only difference is when I picture it “going deeper” from P1 to P2 and back to P3.
Mmmm, that’s what BP means about being too target-line focused.
Is there a better device on the market to educate golfers correctly?

Ok, can anyone guess who this is? and what year was this, circa?
Certainly ahead of their time…

If you really want to destroy your golf swing, I saw one of these on ebay yesterday…! lol

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

I take it Lag Is saying that to try to attempt a zero plane shift is usually hazardous to your golfing health?

Yeah – those things are terrible, unless you use them only for waist to waist high swings. After waist high the plane angle shifts to a higher and steeper plane. Down the line view looks like a cone shape, address plane to shoulder plane. Yeah, golfur66 – that is exactly what I mean about being target line bound.

Yeah – those things are terrible, unless you use them only for waist to waist high swings. After waist high the plane angle shifts to a higher and steeper plane. Down the line view looks like a cone shape, address plane to shoulder plane. Yeah, golfur66 – that is exactly what I mean about being target line bound.

Do you mean by looking at a cone if you turned it on its side, faced the point at the target, and looked at the base of it. If so, would a parabola(y=x^2 for example) describe it better?

I suppose if you mean the cross section of a cone, then we’re on the same page. :)

notice how the clubhead is attached to the track… which would remove centripetal force from the golf swing.. the inward compression that would naturally occur during the change in direction would be thwarted in it’s tracks… literally..

very bad idea..

on plane is only required from P3 to P4…

it’s ok for the golf swing to have some breathing room..
there are very strong arguments for the laid off downswing, and I would go so far as to say that is more desirable than coming straight down the pipe.

Swing plane is really not anything you have to think about. Good swing plane is again, a by-product of velocity, acceleration and properly aiming the hands at the correct part of the ball. Post impact has a lot more to do with plane than people realize. Coning the plane has it’s place too in the advanced stages of ball striking.

More on that soon..

on plane is only required from P3 to P4…

it's ok for the golf swing to have some breathing room..
there are very strong arguments for the laid off downswing, and I would go so far as to say that is more desirable than coming straight down the pipe.

Swing plane is really not anything you have to think about. Good swing plane is again, a by-product of velocity, acceleration and properly aiming the hands at the correct part of the ball. Post impact has a lot more to do with plane than people realize. Coning the plane has it's place too in the advanced stages of ball striking.

More on that soon..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Interesting post here,For me at least,especially the “laid off”part,I have vowed and declared to all and sundry that ,09 was going to be devoted to hitting,but usual story yesterday I played like an absolute dog,last real good this week,shite.
So today I had a practice hit,still no good,so the last 6-7 balls I decided to use driver and just thump it,when I did this I used that “laid off”thing using swinging pattern and low and behold I bombed them long and straight and I could feel the compression,so now Im in state of utter confusion,what do I persevere with,hitting or swinging…HEEELP

You simply do what works. No?

Last week I flushed them,this week I may as well flush lol,I am always confident when hitting but yesterday I just wasnt there.Never give up eh

brownman,

Nothing works every day. Some days you just have to walk you ball in.

Ok, can anyone guess who this is? and what year was this, circa?
Certainly ahead of their time…

If you really want to destroy your golf swing, I saw one of these on ebay yesterday…! lol

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

So I’m guessing 1950’s or maybe even earlier… would love to know who this is….Lag can you tell?

Be fascinating to know what Luther Blacklock, inventor of the modern day Explanar, would say about how its supports plane shifting.

Think ice cream cone from down the line view, left side of the cone is address plane, right side is Turned Right Shoulder Plane.

Dart is a man of much wisdom here. “Nothing works every day” How true, but we all keep searching for that one thing that will work everyday for some strange reason. I also really love “you do what works”.

We need more understanding of the role of anatomy and body type on the swing shape and plane, it is so seldom discussed here and in general among teachers. It explains a whole lot, including hitting vs swinging, length of swing, shaft plane at the Top, release timing, etc.

Golfur66 – if you can find a pretty severe side hill, ball above feet lie to hit drivers from, that drill will also help to flatten your plane. It better – or you may snap your driver shaft in half from hitting the ground!

ice cream cone from down the line view?

Sorry this just doesn’t compute, I can’t picture it at all.

Styles – find address photo of a pro from down the line view and draw a line through clubshaft plane up through the body, then a second line from shoulders to target line, you will see the cone shape. It’s a nice image that Jim Mclean uses a lot in his teaching that I find very helpful. Or you could call it a V shape…

Sorry for the boring narration, but I think this is a the “cone” being described;

Phil Mickelson swing analysis

Ok, can anyone guess who this is? and what year was this, circa?
Certainly ahead of their time…

Paul and Norma?

Nice one Steb:)

Daves – yes, that is the cone image, thank you for providing that. It is a very basic visual way of representing the two extremes of acceptable plane angle shifts throughout the backswing and from Top to impact. The pro narrating did not draw the Turned Right Shoulder Plane line from the Top of backswing position, I would have as it is not the same as the Hogan pane of glass plane. This is a line from right shoulder extremity to the target line, you want the left forearm with a flat or nearly flat left wrist on that line, or a little bit above it for taller golfers, but no more than four inches above it to make the timing of the Transition easier to do. One inch or so below it is okay for shorter golfers especially. Mickelson appears to be right on it in this video.

Did I miss any talk about the paddlewheel action described as a trailing arm movement?

I don’t understand the analogy.

Thanks eh

You should take a look at top of backswing pictures of most tour pros – not the obvious exceptions like Olin Browne (too flat) or Furyk (too upright). Most have their left forearm/wrist region right on or very close to the Turned Right Shoulder Plane, or a line drawn from the tip of the right shoulder down to the target line. With a flat or nearly flat left wrist. On the same spine angle they started on at address. Change the spine angle and this checkpoint for left arm and shaft plane is meaningless.

BP, after looking the analysis of Phil’s swing ( I looked at the guy analysing Tigers as well), I assume you mean for the left forearm plane to be parallel to the TRSP, not on it.
So , if it’s about 62degrees, then get the left forearm on the same angle, so it will be hitting the ground outside the ball?
This seems to be how Phils and Tigers swing appeared.

Golfur66 – no not parallel, right on it is ideal in our model, but above it a bit is ok as I said. Remember the video top part of the cone is NOT the TRSP. Left forearm plane should connect to target line.

Yep , I noticed they used the term “Hogans plane of glass” which is higher(steeper plane) than the TRSP plane correct?
So, if that’s the case, then the TSRP plane and the left forearm plane would intersect at the ball? (You used the term “connect to the target line”)
Also, when you say above, do you mean the plane is steeper, or the forearm itself is higher but on the same plane?
Sorry for sounding thick, but talking about TSRP and how it affects the swing is very new to me and I need to understand the definitions of the terms correctly.

Yes – if the left forearm is above the TRSP, it will be a bit steeper than TRSP when still pointing to the target line (or ball line). This is just another way of saying that the shaft (assuming a flat left wrist) is pointing to the target line, ie from the Top position with a shaft that is parallel to the target line (not laid off or cross the line too much) if the golfer uncocked his left wrist while keeping the flat left wrist, the shaft would be right on the TRSP, an extension of it would point to the target line. Some tour pros are a little bit steeper and inside the target line by a few inches and some are flatter and a bit outside of it – most are on it.

Tiger is on it – prior to Haney he was a bit above it. Above it takes more timing since you have to “wait” for the arm drop to get the arms down to the shoulder plane before you can get your Pivot moving at a decent speed. When the left forearm and TRSP match, you need less timing, have better arm motion and body motion synchronization.

The left wrist cupped makes it more inside the target line and a bowed left wrist makes it outside. A left arm plane too flat or below the TRSP makes it point to the outside of the target line and a too upright left arm plane makes it point to the inside. Right on it with a flat left wrist is ideal from a shaft plane angle standpoint and also affords optimal Low Point/Angle of Attack at impact too.

I would guess your left arm is about a foot or so above your TRSP right now but you need to start with the big increase in spine angle first to get all the other angles right. Think about 25 -28 degree angle with your driver, make sure you bend forward from your hip sockets, not your lower back, your butt will go out when you do it right. Lob wedge, pretty close to 45 degrees or a bit less. Every club will create a different spine angle based on it’s length and lie angle. We measure it from the golfer standing normal posture upright or perpendicular to the ground as o degrees, bending forward increases the angle. The guy narrating the video is measuring from the horizontal plane of the ground, ie his 62 degree spine angle is our 28 degree spine angle.

Hogan pane of glass, yes, is measured from address position at base of neck/shoulder girdle line to target line. TRSP is below that line as you noted and not as steep. I checked the video again and drew the line and Phil has the shaft and bottom of left forearm right exactly on the TRSP, tip of right shoulder (in the righty version of the video!) line to target line.

I thought it was funny how the guy analyzing Phil’s swing is hell bent on Phil’s problem being “over swinging” or “crossing the line”..

If my memory is correct, the greatest player of all time Jack Nicklaus had the same problem.. I don’t think this is why Phil isn’t winning more majors than he his…

Any over swinging that is going on is always an issue with post impact pivot acceleration. Phil, and all these guys do that, because they have to….to compensate for a lack of pivot dynamics.. they play everyday, they make it work..

Very few tour players have the kind of post impact hip action that Hogan, did. That’s how you shorten the backswing. Get better on the other side. Then you CAN do it.. If Phil just shortens his backswing, he won’t hit it as good…. that’s why he doesn’t do it. Going back too far is the symptom, not the problem..

on plane is only required from P3 to P4…

it's ok for the golf swing to have some breathing room..
there are very strong arguments for the laid off downswing, and I would go so far as to say that is more desirable than coming straight down the pipe.

Swing plane is really not anything you have to think about. Good swing plane is again, a by-product of velocity, acceleration and properly aiming the hands at the correct part of the ball. Post impact has a lot more to do with plane than people realize. Coning the plane has it's place too in the advanced stages of ball striking.

More on that soon..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Interesting post here,For me at least,especially the ’Äúlaid off”part,I have vowed and declared to all and sundry that ,09 was going to be devoted to hitting,but usual story yesterday I played like an absolute dog,last real good this week,shite.
So today I had a practice hit,still no good,so the last 6-7 balls I decided to use driver and just thump it,when I did this I used that ’Äúlaid off”thing using swinging pattern and low and behold I bombed them long and straight and I could feel the compression,so now Im in state of utter confusion,what do I persevere with,hitting or swinging…HEEELP

Dart,I do believe that little loop at the top is hopefully the answer to the problems that have been affecting indeed both patterns.
What I have found is that it sorts out my lever alignments going inti release and impact,giving me the straight and compressed ball ,Itried it again tonight hitting 3 then swinging 3.Not worried about distance ,accuracy has priority at this point…...cheers and thanks

After a week of ignoring family and friends, I have finally finished reading this thread.

Awesome input from Dart, BP, bio, Loren and that tour pro with all the info. LP, you should have stayed in Canada so we can claim you like we did Ames.

Any help with that paddlewheel example? I get the role but I ‘see’ the action.

Also, can some light be shed on what you mean with ‘turned shoulder plane’ and any other def’s on shoulder turn. S&T and OPS have introduced a lower lead shoulder turn where it points closer to the ball than a ‘flatter’ turn. BIO, hopefully you can shed some light on what the ideal position of the shoulders should be in relation to the spine. I’m assuming that we want to keep a 90* turn?

Guys

This is the first of what will probably be a series of dumb questions. I’ve just gotten back into golf after a long layoff. I have purchased and received my copy of the little Yellow Book from Guru ( thanks) and also on Paul’s recco have had the first of what I hope will be many lessons with Bryan Ferguson ( who is a gem- discovered we live less that five minutes away from each other and he invited me to check out his practice set up at home to get an idea for my garage set up)

I think that one of my major problems in my swing is that I throw “it” away long before impact. Mindful (especially having had it drummed into me reading this forum) that what you feel is not necessarily what is occuring, My questions are these:

1. Is it possible to hit driver 280-300 metres whilst throwing it away too early?

2. Is it possible to not be throwing it away with the driver, yet doing so with irons?

The second question is asked because again, the feeling I have is that I am tending to steer my irons and not swinging as “freely” as I do my driver.

Certainly had a look at my swing on video with Bryan on Friday night and one thing that is abundantly clear is that I am getting my body way way ahead of my arms on downswing. Bryan gave me a great drill for this and hopefully it will have me discovering my swings lowpoint.

Apologies if this doesn’t belong in this thread and admin fell free to move.

I think that one of my major problems in my swing is that I throw ’Äúit” away long before impact.

had a look at my swing on video with Bryan on Friday night and one thing that is abundantly clear is that I am getting my body way way ahead of my arms on downswing.

hmmmm, wonder if I just answered my own question

Set up a new thread:)

buzz,

have you read the whole book yet?
If so, has anything seemed to hit home? or did you never make it past all the cryptic diagrams in Chapter 2? lol

TGM is a really tough read… don’t feel bad if you can’t make heads or tails of it… a good TGM instructor down there can really help out.

glad to have you on the site…!!

Lag,

You’re spot on. Look at a young Moe’s shaft pressure! Awesome..I remember reading in his book that he liked the heaviest and stiffest shafts he could find..

Lag,

You're spot on. Look at a young Moe's shaft pressure! Awesome..I remember reading in his book that he liked the heaviest and stiffest shafts he could find..

Mash
This is not Young Moe. This picture is from Moe’s clinic videos. He was in his mid sixties.
Anyway, you are right he still had a lot of “pressure”...

buzz,

have you read the whole book yet?
If so, has anything seemed to hit home? or did you never make it past all the cryptic diagrams in Chapter 2? lol

TGM is a really tough read… don't feel bad if you can't make heads or tails of it… a good TGM instructor down there can really help out.

glad to have you on the site…!!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Cheers LP

Have only just got the book and am working my way through it:- Ssssllllloooowwwwwly. As Guru says, light bulbs have started going off already. It seems to be the sort of book that I’ll read a number of times and each read will reveal more and more.

Bryan Ferguson is the coach I’ve hooked up with. Had one lesson already and my feeling is it will be a long and fruitful relationship. He’s a big, big wrap for the two Pauls. Said he was having difficulty with some of the concepts in the book, went and saw Dart who made it very easy to understand.

Reminder to ALL readers. Do so in the order that Homer set out on page X in the preface to avoid brain explosions:)

Reminder to ALL readers. Do so in the order that Homer set out on page X in the preface to avoid brain explosions:)

Pg xiv. And absolutely right. Read it in order.It takes discipline, but at least the first time or two, read it in order

Correct, xiv for the 7th ed.

And it does take discipline as your whole brain just yells, oh go on go on and just read the part referred to…. and from there the Panadol is required.

Correct, xiv for the 7th ed.

And it does take discipline as your whole brain just yells, oh go on go on and just read the part referred to…. and from there the Panadol is required.

Which is not to say that Panadol will not be required even if read in order :-).

I find myself reading a particular section 3/4 times, putting the book down and trying to grasp at least some of it, before picking the book up and moving on to the next section ( and each section may literally only be a paragraph or two).

Where was this book 20 years ago when i was a younger man :-(

20 years ago if it was around it would have been competing with beer and women for your attention….result you still reading it now:)

I find myself reading a particular section 3/4 times, putting the book down and trying to grasp at least some of it, before picking the book up and moving on to the next section ( and each section may literally only be a paragraph or two).

Where was this book 20 years ago when i was a younger man :-(

I put a tick beside each line as it’s understood. :)

I find myself reading a particular section 3/4 times, putting the book down and trying to grasp at least some of it, before picking the book up and moving on to the next section ( and each section may literally only be a paragraph or two).

Where was this book 20 years ago when i was a younger man :-(

I put a tick beside each line as it's understood. :)

Streb,

I put a tick on the pages I didn’t like and crossed the tick off when I understood what he said. Then I liked it.

I now have 4 crosses on most pages. The more you learn the better you see. The more you see the better you learn.

I can’t believe the way this book works your mind into shape.

I wish I had taken it a lot more seriously a lot earlier.

It is amazing how far it can take you in six months and how useless it is for the first six weeks.

Seeing that Picture of Moe reminded me of something Moe said a long time ago.

I had asked Moe about his wide stance, and he said his legs were like the pyramids of egypt.

what do you think?

I think he was right!

the old ‘sphinx up the sphincter’ stance eh?

20 years ago if it was around it would have been competing with beer and women for your attention….result you still reading it now:)

Its running third just now in my race to overall fulfillment!

Oh, the joys of youth.

Some day I will get old enough to just focus on the book.

So Lag, who was that in the swing track photo?

I don’t know who that was in the photo…

I was hoping for some interesting guesses…
maybe a young Homer? lol

that’s not too big a stretch is it?

Phil’s analysis…..can someone help me here?

At what point did Phil’s swing get off plane?

Maybe ever so slightly at impact where the right forearm was a bit high…..but he set up that way (maybe for the controlled fade?)

I saw plane shift but to my eye he stayed very much on plane.

I agree with BPGS that the analysis would have been better with the TRSP line drawn.

Phil is not off plane..

Could his plane be different? maybe, could that be beneficial? Maybe..
maybe not..

This is just my opinion, and I will not be harsh on a guy who can beat my brains out.

He looks like he has some trouble with the driver at times, and I see this as an over acceleration issue. I know he does not hold shaft flex as long as Hogan or Moe. If he were my student, I would work on him developing a bit more cohesive body tension, work on more aggressive lower body action, foot loading and try to increase his post impact rotational speed so that he “then” could attempt to firm up a bit at the top without losing distance. Better acceleration also tends to straighten out the swing plane. CF is great for rigid swing planes. I don’t think Phil isn’t interested in losing any distance in todays bomb and pitch game, so he opts for the momentum hit more than the acceleration hit.

I’m sure he knows this stuff, just chooses not to change much. Doesn’t really need to change anything. He is one of the top players in the world every year.

Bounce and clear, or slide and turn, both ways work very well.

If you set up with enough axis tilt at address, you don’t need much second axis tilt to open up a nice 4:30 delivery path into P3. A bounce into the feet with knee flex on the downswing can offer enough leverage to help increase hip speed post impact. Works great.

You crack me up too …come and watch me and learn

OK. How could we do that?
And could you define “hands to pivot” for us?

I think you’re correct, I don’t wear a belt, or a buckle on the course, and since I live several miles from the golf course, we can be certain the buckle is several miles away at home in a drawer.. very deductive reasoning…

Smart guy you are…

My golf bag has a coupling of punching kangaroos on it.

Wait, are the kangaroos coupling or punching?
Maybe both. Play to the crowd.

What’s “hands to pivot”?

Bio and I are hitting the links tomorrow here in SF..

Bio will be playing a classic set of Hogan Apex blades with a Pena persimmon driver and matching 3 wood.

I’ll be back on the 69 Dynapower bullet backs with my Pena persimmon driver with a 1956 MT Two wood.

Should be a great day at the Mare!

Sounds like fun.

You crack me up too …come and watch me and learn

OK. How could we do that?
And could you define ’Äúhands to pivot” for us?

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

Loren,

May be he means hands controlled pivot.

Some only have time to talk about themselves

Bio and I had a great time out on the course today with Loren joining us as well. Good stuff… Bio loved being back on the persimmons and it was great to hear the sound of wood cracking and echoing through the tree lined fairways.

On a side note, my hands do not control my pivot.. pivot is the driving force of course, with the hands in sync at the right time actively firing as they should through the impact arena.

It was nice to see the scientific data come back showing that what I am feeling is also reality. Always room for improvement though…

come on lag tell us about it!

did mechanics or body motion win? (joke)

so he got you on some machines? what was the experience like and did he highlight anything that hit the mark?

if you ever come back bio, how was the persimmon and the apexs (apices?)

did anything spooky happen having the three of you in same place? did swing faults cease to exist?

Bio played very well, struck some beautiful persimmon drives, and showed some very nice touch around the greens. Quite impressive.
It was the best golf I have seen anyone play on a “first look” at The Mare.

I’m pretty tough to beat on home court though… lol… we had a fantastic day..!

Bio’s company holds their information confidential between players and their research team, I’m sure for very good reasons.

The process of the screening is very interesting. Lots of data comes back, and it’s quite fascinating to view.

Like any science experiment, you have the objective data, you have to understand what it means, and most people would of course want to know how it compares to either a perfect model, an average of what might be typical, or some other parameter of interest. These comparisons can certainly be subjective to some degree, and this is where it is helpful to have an expert be able to make suggestions as to how to improve one’s desired action.

For instance, I would have a different objective for my impact dynamics than say an inspiring long drive champion. My golf swing is geared toward clubhead acceleration into impact, not just momentum or a “constant velocity”. I also work very hard to minimize clubhead deceleration through impact or post impact. I was quite happy to see that my intentions are backed up by hard data. I do bring an accelerating clubhead into impact… and my post impact velocity loss was quite minimal, one of the reasons I believe is that I use a very heavy driver by today’s standards… just under 14 onces. f = m x a. I have never liked the feeling of giving up any of the “m” in that equation. I feel it with lighter drivers as clear as day, and I don’t care for it, and neither does the ball.

The long drive guys seem more interested in the momentum formula that is seeking higher velocity numbers, but not necessarily acceleration. But since I am a feel player, I get more “feel” by increasing acceleration. It’s important to understand the difference here. You can have huge acceleration rates on a 10 foot putt.

and yes, I would suggest anyone get a screening..

If you are willing to ignore the occasional dross and read the good posts, there is much to learn or consider on this site. Then you just get stuff that wastes your time to read…just like the knobman’s!

Good thing about golf away from organised competition is that you can choose your own path. Enjoy your journey Lag.

Regards,
The Pilot

If your going to try to pretend to be different people at least get the spelling correct in some of your dual personalities posts.

Bio played very well, struck some beautiful persimmon drives, and showed some very nice touch around the greens. Quite impressive.
It was the best golf I have seen anyone play on a ’Äúfirst look” at The Mare.

I'm pretty tough to beat on home court though… lol… we had a fantastic day..!

Bio's company holds their information confidential between players and their research team, I'm sure for very good reasons.

The process of the screening is very interesting. Lots of data comes back, and it's quite fascinating to view.

Like any science experiment, you have the objective data, you have to understand what it means, and most people would of course want to know how it compares to either a perfect model, an average of what might be typical, or some other parameter of interest. These comparisons can certainly be subjective to some degree, and this is where it is helpful to have an expert be able to make suggestions as to how to improve one's desired action.

For instance, I would have a different objective for my impact dynamics than say an inspiring long drive champion. My golf swing is geared toward clubhead acceleration into impact, not just momentum or a ’Äúconstant velocity”. I also work very hard to minimize clubhead deceleration through impact or post impact. I was quite happy to see that my intentions are backed up by hard data. I do bring an accelerating clubhead into impact… and my post impact velocity loss was quite minimal, one of the reasons I believe is that I use a very heavy driver by today's standards… just under 14 onces. f = m x a. I have never liked the feeling of giving up any of the ’Äúm” in that equation. I feel it with lighter drivers as clear as day, and I don't care for it, and neither does the ball.

The long drive guys seem more interested in the momentum formula that is seeking higher velocity numbers, but not necessarily acceleration. But since I am a feel player, I get more ’Äúfeel” by increasing acceleration. It's important to understand the difference here. You can have huge acceleration rates on a 10 foot putt.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

any ground balls going on

Time for admin to block Tai’s ISP’s IP address prefix.

any photos or videos of the day out?

You just want to see if Bio was rebuilt with bionic parts right? Hmmm, so do I.

Dart said his game improved with a new hip.

i think he has been given an articulated spine which rotates only ‘on plane’!

hmmm … that isnt a bad idea

time for some self augmentation!

Lag

You didn’t say if the mapping of your movements are in accordance with the “norm” for a professional golfer (other than your acceleration through impact).
Were there areas that Bio suggested you could improve on?

Sure, there are always areas that can be improved..

The thing about any kind of data is that it is always open to some amount of interpretation. I swung a 43 inch 14 ounce persimmon driver, so to compare that to someone who is using a modern titanium driver makes little sense to me. You have to remember that a heavier club puts a different load on the muscle groups than a lighter one.
Bio likes to screen with a driver because that does put the most load on the muscles, but comparing me to a normal “anything” we have to determine what that “normal” is, and a 43 inch, 14 ounce persimmon is certainly falling outside of anything currently normal. If I were to swing a modern driver (screening), my muscles are not trained to swing something that long and light. I saw a 48 inch driver that was coming in at around 10.5 onces when I was down in Las Vegas. You are going to be working different muscle groups if you are throwing a baseball compared to a shot put. Bowling a cricket ball or a bowling ball.

As far as improvements, it’s no mystery that any amount of increase in post impact rotational acceleration is going to be of interest to me because I am interested in increasing force and thrust much more than velocity. These are the treats that put feel in your hands, and are going to give you better clubhead and impact feedback sensations. Lag pressure feel is the life blood of a good player, not velocity. Super high velocities might win you the long drive contest, but not the stroke play championship. Just depends what you want.

Golf ball flight patterns are very concerned about pre and post impact velocity, force, thrust, angle of attack, arc of approach, clubhead sole lie angle, clubshaft pre stress, and clubface rotation. Off center hits change what the ball does also obviously.

Everything I saw in the data very accurately reflected what I feel in my golf swing. No surprises really. But unlike most people, I am very aware of what I do…

Getting a screening I think is a great idea. Why not see what your body is really doing? Very accurate, I was quite impressed.

very nice lagpressure

and alot to think about there regarding intent

by the way thank you very much for being you

Bio piping one off the ninth..

Persimmon Pena into the tight 7th fairway

I told Bio to hit an iron off the 6th, so he pulls the persimmon and launches it to the top of the hill to set up this birdie putt..

Loren was making all the putts though!

Nice Pics Lag..The Mare looks like a gem..

Progress Report for Lag Consisting of Observations, New Feelings and New Habits

90 holes (5 Sundays) under my belt under nasty wet mucky frigid conditions each time (3 to 6 over each occasion)

Playing partners are almost annoying when they say, ’ÄúNice hit” because I'm not done hitting it yet! I almost flinch. ;)

6-inch level shallow divots with 7-iron (longer and more level than expected)

Fades have good mustard on them & almost as far as draws

Right side of core is sore after playing or extended practice

Old semi-deflated soccer ball/dog toy with old 1-iron is my impact bag drill combo

Swing key for me is to apply as much increasing acceleration as I can while making sure that I don't uncock my wrists lower than level before impact…If I do uncock them early, the right field shot is the result

3 new vintage sets of MacGregor irons from the 60's and early 70's (MC's, MT's and CF4000)

My 3 wooden drivers (Tony P, CC and MT) are not in play yet until we get over 40 degrees and ’Äúcasual course” dries up a little

Practice in shag field instead of driving range (Fade pattern much tighter in terms of distance control)

Rapid fire flipped upside-down 1965 PW feels great left handed in shag field

Misses on sweet spot tend to be slightly towards the toe especially when executing draw

Ball flight pattern is dead straight

Severe Hooks can only happen for me if massive acceleration is applied while swing speed velocity is slower than normal..(very hard to describe)

Comfortable fading the ball with a closed plane line or drawing the ball with an open plane line as described earlier by Lag.

My other miss has been when playing the ball slightly back in the stance for a draw..I sometimes just push it and my weight (hips) after impact wants to go towards my toes and out of balance like I might want start running down to first base. However, I'm pretty sure I'm not OTT..

Lag, Thanks for all you have shared with us so far..I think I'm on the right track and wanted to give you some honest and encouraging feedback under these trying conditions

Mashie72

Thanks Mashie,

Hope you can make it to SF one day, a persimmon round at the Mare is priceless.

That all sounds very good. Would love to see your swing, if you don’t want to post it here, you can send me one..

lagpressure@yahoo.com

For instance, I would have a different objective for my impact dynamics than say an inspiring long drive champion. My golf swing is geared toward clubhead acceleration into impact, not just momentum or a ’Äúconstant velocity”. I also work very hard to minimize clubhead deceleration through impact or post impact. I was quite happy to see that my intentions are backed up by hard data. I do bring an accelerating clubhead into impact… and my post impact velocity loss was quite minimal, one of the reasons I believe is that I use a very heavy driver by today's standards… just under 14 onces. f = m x a. I have never liked the feeling of giving up any of the ’Äúm” in that equation. I feel it with lighter drivers as clear as day, and I don't care for it, and neither does the ball.

The long drive guys seem more interested in the momentum formula that is seeking higher velocity numbers, but not necessarily acceleration. But since I am a feel player, I get more ’Äúfeel” by increasing acceleration. It's important to understand the difference here. You can have huge acceleration rates on a 10 foot putt.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag you are no doubt a genius on the golf course and I happen to know for a fact that your information is brilliant. For a “classic” golfer or traditionalist as you like to be called, your take on the technique and mechanics/motion of the golf swing is so far advanced that science is only just catching up to some of the things you have said.

Bio’s screenings are brilliant and anybody not having one is behind the 8 ball. Chris Welch is undoubtedly a guru and so far ahead of anybody else in the golf science field it is not funny.

I do have to pick up on two points you stated though…

Long Drivers actually do focus on acceleration and post impact acceleration as you said F = m x a, higher acceleration, higher impact force, more energised ball, better distance. Using your 5th power accumulator definitely works well for this post impact. Have actually witnessed a very well known Long Driver who only possessed a swing speed of 136mph produce ball speeds of 213mph (a smash factor of 1.56). His acceleration is phenomenal which accounts for his high energy transfer. Long Drivers will typically hold their speed release until the last possible moment, the result is a higher change in velocity, more commonly known as acceleration. I know you said not neccessarily but I just wanted to clear up confusion for other readers that might assume that all Long Drivers worry about is speed. After all there is a difference between a ‘slapper’ and a ‘puncher’.

Secondly, the SI units for F=ma is kg (m kg s-2). Acceleration is the key factor to impact force. The differential in clubhead mass will only be 10-20 grams at most. If you read Ben Witter’s dynamics of distance it shows that mass only relates to the weight of the clubhead, not the shaft or the body mass. Hence why the current big hitter in the world is 20 years and weighs 165lbs. (his acceleration and raw speed is brilliant). Taken this into account if you added 100grams of mass to a clubhead. In the Force formula this would be a differential of 0.1, pretty negligable in terms of increasing impact force. I think the key for people to recognise is the only way to appreciably increase their distance is by improving their body motion to improve their clubhead velocity and acceleration or doing speed work to teach their body to store load and contract faster. The faster a muscle fires and contracts the more speed and acceleration it can produce. (sorry this is just my area of interest and expertise)

I know and I commend you for being who you are and the fact that you are a traditionalist is brilliant. I also have no doubt that if the same technology had been around in your time that the golfers would have made Tiger look very ordinary. Unfortunately technology is here and I will beg to differ that you cant produce the same or better force rates through better acceleration and speed differences. I totally acknowledge and understand that you are a ‘feel’ player and the heavier club would give you the feedback you seek. I guess it is generational. The same as a player who has grown up on titanium and graphite will never have the right feel for persimmon and steel. Neither are wrong, they are just apples and oranges.

Thank you for you posts and your threads though, they are definitely the most informative, thought provoking and helpful on iseek. Hope the porch is okay and Bio didnt take any divots with the 1 iron!! hahaha

PS: Bio 75, Lag 72…. pretty even match considering equipment and home course advantage! Both you guys are brilliant! Kudos.

PPS: Bio perfect in that pic! Good body motion, gotta love it!

Thanks for the invite Lag..Love to do it someday..

I recently sold my video camera and bought a digital SLR instead..No near term promises on the video but will see if I can get it done..

SSC – Welcome!

Let’s take a different look at the equipment issue…

Modern theory says that if the club is lighter, you can make it longer, and swing it faster, therefore hit if farther. Of course the longer club is always a bit harder to control…. solution? Bigger clubhead.
Throw in a low spin ball and you have the modern game.

Now this is all great if the goal of golf is to win the long drive contest.
But to play good golf, maximum distance is probably only the goal of about 11 of your shots around. Given 4 three pars and 3 fairways that don’t require a driver, you have 11 chances to smash it.

Now every other shot of your 72 score has a “feel” aspect. You’re not only motivated to hit it straight, you are motivated to strike it a precise distance, putting included.

Now, take a typical iron shot, let’s say I am to hit a less than full shot.
Most good players don’t go 100% at their irons. Maybe 70 to 80% of what they are capable of. I pull a six iron. What is the advantage of having a light weight iron that I hit farther?

If I am a momentum swinger, meaning, I am delivering a non accelerating clubhead into the ball, then Newtons momentum formula will be my delivery..

p = mv (p being momentum)

If I give up mass, in theory I can swing faster to make “p” the same.

But….. because I am not trying for a maximum “p” value, as my objective is a specific “p” (an exact yardage, not over the green) then I know that I will have to swing the club faster with the lighter club to get to the same momentum transfer into the ball.

So the question is… what is the point? If I have to swing the club faster, it becomes harder to control.

You also have to consider that the heavier clubhead will perform better with off center strikes. An empty shoe box or one filled with rocks will react much differently, if you toss a golf ball out to it’s edges. One spins the box the other doesn’t.

Another factor is that the heavier club puts more muscle load on the body, arms and hands, and the body counter reacts to that heavier weight.

This would be the same concept in weight lifting. The heavier the mass the person lifts, the more that weight engages deeper muscle fibers within the body. Lift a beer can you might not even feel anything in the shoulder. Lift a 40 pound weight and you’ll feel it right to your feet.

The heavier club (to a point obviously) creates a deeper body connection with the golf club… and if you can swing the club at the same rpm as the lighter one, because you are not going all out, trying for maximum velocity.. then there is a legitimate argument for
the positive effect of a heavier club.

The heavier club also gives the player more feel.

It’s interesting that in the 1930’s, clubs were very light. The heads were light. The swing weights were very light. In the age of Hogan and Snead, mid 40s through the 60’s, clubs were much heavier.

Certainly Hogan had the option of using lighter clubs. If you take the lead out of a persimmon head it will weigh less than anything on the market today. The persimmon wood itself is not heavy. There is a big chunk of lead right behind the sweetspot for those of you who have never seen one, or opened one up.

We certainly saw some great golf swings come out of that age and era. Obviously, people are still studying some of those swings. But I agree with Sevam1, that if you really want to get at Hogan, you’ll have to learn the swing using similar gear, both in head weight and shaft flex. it doesn’t have to be old or retro, just similar in physics.

Just food for thought.

Lag,

You have said the following in the past, “I use an angled hinge as a hitter. There is no feeling of a roll at all…...but in the case of my release I would use a non automatic release, meaning the shaft is ’Äúfired” with a deliberate rotation of the right forearm into the impact area…....if you start too fast on the downswing, and you don't have the rotational speed with the right forearm into impact”

So, how do you rotate the right forearm with speed while not rolling the wrists?

At the moment I I feel little to no rotational speed of the right forearm

Remember, it’s a right forearm rotation but NOT a straightening of the right elbow… the hitter’s right arm stays FROZEN from P3 almost to P4.

The wrists turn into the ball fast and hard to square up the face deliberately as the forearms rotate. This is not the dead hands, gravity approach throw of the swinger…

The thing that stops the hands from over rolling is a fast post impact pivot… proper hitting is really like a two stage rocket blast..

The pivot delivers the angles down to P3… the hands fire them and get rid of them (angles) into impact.. then the body fires again, sustaining impact alignments as long as it can, right to the finish…

Bio talks about how the pivot slows into impact, and this is really just the delay between rocket stage firings.. it is important that this happens…

Personally I don’t like the idea of finish as a both arms straight into P4. (unless it’s a short punch shot)

I like to think a quarter turn more where the club would point skyward..

You can think of the post impact stuff as like the barrel of a gun..
although the explosion has happened, there still needs to be some direction and intent going on. The finish is like the end of the gun barrel.. the shot is not finished until the bullet leaves the barrel.. or your finish…

I haven’t seen Mike around here lately, but is he suggesting there is a wrong way and a right way to roll the left forearm here?

It looks like what he’s saying here is that you can roll the forearm without rolling the wrist and opening the clubface excessively.That seems extremely awkward to do in an actual swing.

The natural thing to do when you roll the forearm is to roll the wrist as well.You can see if you try that move, it feels like the left elbow rotates clockwise and the wrist rotates anticlockwise.Kinda funny.

I really have to question the validity of the left forearm roll on the backswing anyway.What is the logical reason to do so?

My personal preference is a bit what Jimmy Ballard teaches.The left elbow points down towards the ground in the entire swing.Then there is no need to roll the left forearm that much on the downswing.Less moving parts anyone?

I have seen too many 5 even 10 handicappers have very fine, proper looking backswings that would appear to be much more textbook than many top tour pros..

I think golfers in general spend waaaayyyyy to much time worrying about their backswings.. Maybe it’s because they can? with mirrors and window reflections..

If the body and hands don’t know what to do through impact, no amount of prettiness is going to make much difference..

The quick sequencing of events done properly through the impact and release zones is absolutely imperative… I can’t say that about address or the backswing..

You can find a major championship winner with about any kind of backswing imaginable.. not so however with impact dynamics.

I don’t believe in or teach the left forearm roll on the takeaway. Haney does, because as far as I can tell, Hogan did it, and Haney’s mentor growing up and playing golf in the northern suburbs of Chicago (my own home turf) was his local club pro, a gentleman by the name of Jim Hardy, also a big Hogan fan. Hogan did it because it was the easiest way to hit a low running hook into the high winds of west Texas, an essential part of his home grown and self-described “caddie swing”. He stuck with it later on in his pro career partly because it was such a dominant habit and partly because he saw some film of old Scottish teaching pros who recommended it. He was obviously a big believer in it.

With at least a medium strong left hand grip, you forearm is already “pre-rolled” just the right amount at setup to get the clubface into the toe up position at end of takeaway. Makes learning the arm pushaway and pivot elements much easier to synchronize.

Rolling it open on purpose obviously requires you to roll it back to square at some point in the downswing. Talk about unnecessary moving part! And the huge timing problem it presents for average golfers especially. You can get a bit more compression and thus distance with this move though.

Tiger eliminated this move right before the British Open in 2007 when his swing really improved, started hitting more fairways. Good call on his part, I heard he and Haney had a bit of a disagreement over this, but Tiger gave it a good try for what – three years or more?

i don’t believe fort worth would be considered west texas

Again, you’re explaining away the bits of Hogan that don’t fit your ideas.

BPGS1,

I reckon whether or not Hogan really indeed rolled his left forearm clockwise on the takeaway is a call the jury is still out on.From what I can see on videos of his swing he doesn’t do it,nowhere near as much as he or others think anyway.It’s hard to tell though due to low resolution footage.Unfortunately swingvision was not available then.

I challenge anyone to roll the left forearm on the takeaway as fast and as much as you can like Hogan said he did and not be flat as James Packers casino investments and a clubface so open you will need to rotate it 180 degrees to get it back to square.

I suspect another porky from Mr Hogan.

I think of golf as like flying a fighter jet. If your goal is to master the controls of the cockpit, who is best to teach you?

Hogan and Moe offer us insight into being the greatest pilots ever.
You’d be foolish not to listen very closely to what they say.

I see Homer more as like the guy that built and engineered the plane…..understanding the nuts and bolts of it’s construction, and aerodynamic capabilities.

Most pilots I assume don’t understand the finer details of assembly and engineering. Likewise, most aerodynamic engineers would probably get wiped out quickly in a dog fight.

The problem lies when one side tries to discredit the other.

When I read Homer’s work, I see it as very consistent with what I see in great ball strikers. I also see it as very consistent with my own sensations as a former tour player.

But problems come up because a great player like Hogan may be describing intention, and it is this intention that will create the actual textbook version of actual desirable reality. Without that intention, the desirable reality cannot happen.

It’s very hard for observation based bystanders to understand this.

Let me repeat,

It’s very hard for observation based bystanders to understand this.
Including Homer.

The mistake people make is that they are quick to discredit one who’s feelings are inconsistent with scientific data or reality.

I think most Hogamaniacs don’t care much for TGM.. Who would you rather believe? The greatest striker ever? or some double digit golfer studying the golf swing in his garage in Seattle? At least it was in the 60’s…

The hard core TGM guys can’t deny Hogan, but they are quick to dismiss his work as merely perception, and “it feels like this but I am actually doing something quite different”.

After having not picked up a golf book (or a club) in nearly 15 years,
and just having finished re reading both Hogan’s and Homer’s work,
look for some interesting topics to appear here from time to time in the weeks and months to come…

I do not think any hard core TGMer deny’s any great players stroke.

There are a lot who say “I do this” who do not really do it that way. Its how they feel they do it. Nobody can say “your feel is wrong”.
What they can say is “that feel is this motion.”

Feel from Mechanics. Mechanics from Feel.

When they started putting electronic sensors in F1 cars many a driver found their feel for the car was different form what the sensors said. It lead to the drivers having not to change their feel but to how they described it to the mechanics to change the set ups.

I think my point about Hogan has been misinterpreted.

Hogan has always been a cryptic man in the things he said.

Faldo once asked him what is the secret to winning the US open ,as Nick has never won it despite being such an accurate ballstriker in his prime,and Hogan told him to shoot the lowest score.

That reeks of a person that likes to play on peoples minds.

You have to shoot the lowest score in any tournament to win it,not just the the US open….duhhhhh

Actually,Hogan told another porky to Faldo.

I believe Tiger won the US open last year with the same score as Rocco Mediate and then won in a playoff.

Dap – you are so right about Hogan. He did enjoy playing with people’s minds. And he was very good at it. All the “secrets” hype was the premiere example.

He was also extremely competitive and would never give his opponent even the slightest advantage. I think the hero worship of Hogan is not a healthy thing.

He was, for the most part, not a happy man nor a nice guy. Speaking as someone who has always admired his golf skills and ballstriking ability. Said by many who knew him “he was only close to one person in his life, his wife Valerie.”

He had his legitimate reasons, watching his Dad commit suicide, the least of which, for sure. Grinding poverty growing up. He embraced the conservative Republican philosophy of the elite rich in USA as he gained fame and wealth himself.

It must have been really tough for him to lose his skills as he grew older. His last interview with Golf Digest had a glimpse of this.

BPSG1 – again, what you are saying is mostly nonsense.

The suicide thing is just a theory – never been proved.

Grinding poverty? Hardly. He enjoyed the patronage of a very wealthy backer from quite an early age.

Republican? He’s from Texas!

And he helped his opponents with their golf swings! And wrote a book about it!

Not a happy man? Not a nice guy? Again – there are plenty of people who say this is rubbish.

Everything you have written there is nothing more than a fable – again, it is something that for some reason it suits you to believe.

I remember watching an episode of “Playing Lessons from the Pros” a number of years back. It was the one featuring Jim Furyk which was televised on The Golf Channel.

The “bald headed eagle,” as I like to call him, has a number of idiosyncrasies which set him apart from the herd.

He employs a double overlap grip for his full swing which he refers to as a “goofy grip.”

Then there’s that crazy putting routine. What is that?

He addresses the ball and just as you think he’s going to draw the putter back he steps away from it.

No matter how many times I see that ritual I still expect him to stroke it the first time round. He gets me every time.

In spite of all that, the thing that astounded me most was when he uttered the immortal words, “my swing feels straight back and straight through.”

At that point I just had to change the channel.

BPGS1,

I reckon whether or not Hogan really indeed rolled his left forearm clockwise on the takeaway is a call the jury is still out on.From what I can see on videos of his swing he doesn't do it,nowhere near as much as he or others think anyway.It's hard to tell though due to low resolution footage.Unfortunately swingvision was not available then.

I challenge anyone to roll the left forearm on the takeaway as fast and as much as you can like Hogan said he did and not be flat as James Packers casino investments and a clubface so open you will need to rotate it 180 degrees to get it back to square.

I suspect another porky from Mr Hogan.

Dap more potential..very good. Yep he rotated it counter clockwise and turned his body more

I had an epiphany last week while belting balls and I then I remembered that Guru may have mentioned it months earlier in this or another thread.
It was around having your mind on your hands.
It came about because I was trying so hard to get my arms into the correct positions on the BS and DS. The problem was, I couldn’t feel the clubshaft, my hands, or the the face angle.
I then concentrated on what my hands were doing and Bango, it all fell into place again.
The only problem I had was when I became too hands focused, I didn’t use my body quite as well. It usually exhibited itself in getting way too much spin on my irons. I was spinning my wedges about 20 feet. Bad news!
So, the question is, prior to hitting a shot, does it make sense to feel my body motion with one practice swing, feel my hands on the next one, then pull the trigger?
What does TGM say about this, if anything at all, on the mental side of golf?

On the mental side of golf, Dr Mumfords input is what the Kelly’s trusted.

Once you get used to having your mind in your hands then becoming aware of other parts is easier. Gotta move the whole not just a part.

Deceleration is the best way to lose feel in your hands…

When acceleration ceases to exist, or reaches a numerical zero,
you enter the “dead zone” a place where the hands are just hanging on and hoping for a decent golf shot.

Ben Hogan in his “Five Lessons” states that the point of maximum clubhead speed must be after impact, not at impact”. He describes this in his 4th lesson, “The second part of the swing”

Now many will argue that this is not possible, especially the forum “brainiacs” here, due to the forces of impact collision, but I will say this,
Hogan’s statement shows perfect intention, and he was aware of the value of not losing feel in his hands.. he knew the dead zone was a dangerous place for the hands to pass through, and he did everything he could pivot and hand wise, to keep pressure on the shaft as long as possible.. I suspect he felt pressure well into his follow through..

I’m looking forward to finishing Dr Mumford’s book and being able to comment on it properly, but everything I have read so far is spot on… I agree with Guru, excellent..

lagpressure,

How could Hogan tell if his clubhead speed post impact was greater than before impact?He felt it?

Here is some information that could be food for thought.

Brain neurons travel at 100 meters per second.That means it takes about 0.01 seconds for the feel in the hands to register in the brain.When we feel something in the hands or anywhere else,it is not registered in the brain instantly although we feel we do as 0.01 seconds is very brief.

Now get this.If a clubhead is travelling at say 180 km/h at impact,the feel of impact does not register in the brain until the clubhead is about half a meter past the point of impact,if anyone cares to do the calculations.

What you think you are feeling post impact is actually at impact.

Dap,

You are absolutely correct, there is a delay, and when a club is moving that fast, you’re sensations have to be aimed beyond the point of impact..

They did have high speed camera technology then… I am sure Hogan experimented with it..

All he would have to see is that his clubshaft didn’t release till after impact, even on a swing without a ball… I know he could do that…
even I can do that… and I am no Hogan…

They definitely had stroboscopic photography back then and images like the one below show that maximum clubhead velocity happens before impact. Even the TPI graphs JeffMann posted 50 times show such rapid clubhead deceleration after impact that I’d find it hard to believe Hogan was an exception.

But that deceleration could be explained fully by the forces of impact. I’d love to see a strobe photo of Hogan without a ball to see if he really did have maximum velocity after impact or it was just his intention to.

steb, that’s a very informative photo… I found one of Gary Player and was shocked to see it looked like his hands actually slowed a bit at impact. I wish they’d do more of those photo’s.

Steb,

The clubhead cannot accelerate past impact otherwise no transfer of momentum will be passed on to the ball.The picture and TPI graphs proves it.If anyone claims it can be done,they will need to provide concrete proof as it defies conservation of momentum laws.

You can of course attempt to achieve it and this can only do a world of good to your swing.

I agree that whilst it may be physically impossible to keep accelerating after impact, the intent to do so is what made Hogan so good.

After reading this debate 10 times at least, here’s my take (I don’t normally get involved).

The clubhead can be ‘accelarating’ relative to the forces it is encountering. What what some people call ‘accelaration’ is petrol going into the engine, not simply an increase in speed.

At a certain point in the swing, the ‘car’ is going uphill and requires more juice. It may not go faster, but it is trying too.

Acceleration relative to all the drags and leaks – including the ball but also human physiology – is the right thing to talk about.

Is the clubhead decelerating in a good player swing? Sure; maybe it is. But it is doing so an awful lot less than if were actually “decelerating” i.e. leaking speed like a hacker with clubhead throwaway etc.

Basically, acceleration in the purely theoretical sense is the wrong analytic for what we want to talk about.

well put BN

Forgive me as I’m well out of my depth but love this thread. Is that feeling of continued acceleration the aim of the impact bag drills? I spent some time on this recently and yesterday it felt like I was hitting to a few feet ahead of the ball, even when the club stuck in the hard dry ground the feeling was there.

These are my linear acceleration rates with a 14.5 ounce 43 inch persimmon driver…

Not sure how much proof is needed… looks good to me…

Also when looking at photos, you have to take into account two things..
one is TOE DIP which happens especially with the longer clubs..
and as the club is coming down from P3, this dip is a sideways angle until impact, so that dip can appear to be or look like flex loss when in fact it is not.. a bowing down is not a bowing forward..

Secondly, CF forces have a straightening effect on the shaft and can flatten out the look of pre stress, especially in stiffer shafts..

Homer in TGM 2-M-1

“the outward pull of centrifugal force tends to conceal but cannot cancel the CONSIDERABLE contribution of a pre stressed (bent) clubshaft, though it is bent even more at separation”

Homer in 2-E

“Zero Deceleration gives maximum ball speed for all approach speeds.”

“Centrifugal pull and prestress (acceleration) stiffen the clubshaft for consistent resistance to impact deceleration. Treat the heavy feel of clubhead recovery after impact as though it were all impact, even though the ball is actually gone”

Pretty good indication this one will be arriving pre stressed…

These are my linear acceleration rates with a 14.5 ounce 43 inch persimmon driver…

Not sure how much proof is needed… looks good to me…

Was that with a ball Lag and does the vertical line represent impact?

Yes, that of course was with a ball, and you can see how the speed drops after impact, but to some degree it is still accelerating into the ball past initial impact..because of force…

The vertical line is initial contact.

It shows that I have lower velocity with a heavier club, but higher thrust than most, and this is why I can hit the ball straight with reasonable distance. I drive a heavy short persimmon about 260 average. I hit one 290 the other day on a damp fairway, but that was unusual. I swing about 80% of capacity for a normal swing.. I like to keep something in the back pocket if I really need it, which isn’t often. I always look at pin placement when possible, to set up my second shot from the correct side of the fairway.

When Hogan says he wishes he had 3 right hands, I understand him perfectly. I’m not nearly as strong and Hogan was in his prime, but I wish I had 5 right hands.. Snead said the same thing.. hit with the right hand just before impact.

That is the only way you can maintain shaft flex.. The modern swing with the dead hands is a guaranteed zero acceleration momentum dump.. not a force (acceleration hit). Swingers and switters can’t do this.. Tom Wishon and his shaft flex theories are correct for most of the golfing world, but if I got on his testing equipment, I would show him that what he says can’t be done, can in fact be done… just because he hasn’t seen it with other tour pros, doesn’t mean it can’t be done.. of course it can be done..

You need strong fast hand to do this, and you need to have started working on this yesterday.

I believe what Hogan said.. and he talked about how he worked on strengthening his forearms and hands while in bed recovering from his accident… it paid off. He didn’t do this so he could make his comeback with a pair of lazy dead swingers hands.

Homer was well aware of this too in TGM.. he spend a lot of time talking about a hitters pre stressed clubshaft in his epic chapter 2.
It’s all over the place, but for some reason it goes ignored in TGM circles for the most part… at least the one’s I was in over in the Doyle – McHatton camp years ago.

I can’t speak for Blake and the others…. although a few of the youtube things I have seen from a couple of the guys, seems like the same old stuff.. but I make no claim as to what these other TGM instructors are preaching… either here of there..

Homer loved body hitting, it’s all there, you really have to dig a bit though, because a lot of his book is geared toward simple motions for beginner golfers. If you weed through it, and know what to look for, it’s as clear as day.. Homer knew his stuff… and it’s amazing how much Homer talks about feel also..

again..
2-E

’ÄúCentrifugal pull and prestress (acceleration) stiffen the clubshaft for consistent resistance to impact deceleration. Treat the heavy feel of clubhead recovery after impact as though it were all impact, even though the ball is actually gone”

There it is… that’s Hogan… that’s Hogan’s second part of the swing in lesson #4. It’s right there, and those who choose not so see it, live by those golden words, shall not enter thy kingdom of golfing heaven!! LOL

I took these today.

I went at this way harder than I normally would with the hands from P3 to impact.. and used a regular shaft, so the flex could be more visible.
The lighting is not great, but it’s there.. this is certainly pushing my limits of load and support, but it can be done, and quite well.. If I can juice up my forearm strength 20%, I might make this a regular affair.

I also took some photos with the same aggression using X100 shafts and you can’t see it as much if at all, because of the stiffness of the shafts.. much stiffer than these, but the load is still there as Homer describes..

“CF tends to conceal but does not cancel the contribution of prestress”

Yes, that of course was with a ball, and you can see how the speed drops after impact, but to some degree it is still accelerating into the ball past initial impact..because of force…

The vertical line is initial contact.

So any idea what causes that sharp peak we see after the impact line? That’s a change from rapid acceleration to rapid deceleration that happens just about instantly.

Tom Wishon and his shaft flex theories are correct for most of the golfing world, but if I got on his testing equipment, I would show him that what he says can't be done, can in fact be done… just because he hasn't seen it with other tour pros, doesn't mean it can't be done.. of course it can be done..

Actually Tom does acknowledge that the very rare golfer can bring that club into impact stressed.

My beliefs on this are that a stressed club is a battle between velocity and acceleration. Acceleration leaves the clubhead behind the shaft, velocity brings it ahead of the shaft (rearward CoG of clubhead aligning with shaft, toe droop effect in different plane in other words).

So someone who is striving for maximum clubhead velocity at impact would accelerate earlier to give that velocity time to build up.

Someone aiming to bring the club in stressed would accelerate as powerfully and as late as possible so velocity doesn’t have a chance to build up too quickly and release the stress.

sure, just the instant transfer of energy from the club to the ball..

The ball loads up a ton of compression, then just trampolines off the face. It’s the tremendous back kick that creates the spike down..

The less the better, and this is why I spend so much time addressing that issue… POST IMPACT WORK..

The tougher my hands are, the firmer my pivot and body connection, the more packed and compressed I am at the #4 pressure point, the more I just flat out resist that deceleration the better that second half of the graph looks.. that ’s it.. that’s what we should be striving for..

Everyone is so hung up on increasing velocity with light clubs and long clubs, and throwing their arms at the ball on the downswing, they are missing the point..

One of Homer’s biggest mantras was to “sustain the line of compression” SUSTAIN!!

People love to just go to the range and check on their swing speed on the radar and jump up and down if they clock in higher.. but that does not necessarily produce better, more consistent golf shots.. usually not..

I was told my deceleration rates were much better than most tour pros, but I think a lot of that has to do with the mass of the clubhead.
I’ve always been a better than average ball striker out on tour.. I don’t think that would be any different now, but I would hate using the long lightweight clubs.. it would destroy what I have worked hard for..

If I could get on a really tight gamey 6800 yard course, and had a decent week with the putter I would be right there.. bring em on… Olympic Club, Cypress Point, Medina, that kind of golf.. ball strikers stuff. Tight, small greens, that’s just a lot more fun..

Wedge and putt all day is not my interest.. never was..

So someone who is striving for maximum clubhead velocity at impact would accelerate earlier to give that velocity time to build up.

Someone aiming to bring the club in stressed would accelerate as powerfully and as late as possible so velocity doesn't have a chance to build up too quickly and release the stress.

This is exactly correct…

Homer talks about high speed low thrust, and low speed high thrust..

It’s really the difference between wanting to be really long, or wanting to be a really good player.

sure, just the instant transfer of energy from the club to the ball..

The ball loads up a ton of compression, then just trampolines off the face. It's the tremendous back kick that creates the spike down..

From that graph, the dip comes nearly 10ms after initial impact.

Persimmon driver has the ball on the clubface for about 0.5ms.

The ball has well separated from the clubface by the time that dip comes.

Steb,

I compress the ball longer than most.. so I’m not sure I can be compared to the .5 you speak of.. could be a factor.. possibly..

could be the kick back of the shaft.. and I also have a tipped X100 that is really a pole in that thing.. all these small factors are factors.. the compression or softness of the ball too.. I suspect a softer ball might stay on the face longer.. some things we don’t know.. I don’t remember what the ball was.. it’s down in the canyon somewhere..

good question..

lagpressure,

How were the measurements done and what are the units used in the graph?Mph vs ms?

Interesting to note that even in the change of direction from backswing to downswing your clubhead linear velocity is still almost 10mph.

I should also add that the10ms between the impact line and the dip represents nearly 18 inches of clubhead travel (based on your clubhead speed). That’s a long distance for the ball to be carried by the club. Typically it’s about 3/4 of an inch.

I do suspect the position of that line. Was there a microphone, optical sensor or something else detecting impact?

Pretty good indication this one will be arriving pre stressed…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Whats that in Hogans pocket?A wad of cash?

Moe Norman always had a wad of cash in his pocket also…..could it be the secret???

Thanks Styles – next step is for me to do it!!!

Having an interesting time thinking about post impact speed at the moment – only really starting to get it: a great intention.

On the science: what impact does the fact that the club is changing from travelling downwards to upwards have on clubhead speed?

It looks like a smooth change but is it actually quite a sharp change in direction? I.E as though the car (see above) was both coming into a hill and turning a corner at the same time.

Or think of an airplane that is heading for the ground but then pulls out of the dive and increases thrust at the same time?

We can certainly over analyze data till our eyes dry up, but I think that the key is to realize that the harder you can drive through impact, with a greater degree of acceleration, the better… it is consistent with what Homer says in his epic chapter 2 of TGM, and it is consistent with what the greatest ball striker of all time said you should both intend to do, and feel (Hogan).. and Moe told me personally and on my video of him the same thing..

I can tell you myself, as a pretty decent ball striker, that the ability to feel the club, and control the ball…. is hands down better in everyway, than passively slapping at the ball with dead hands trying to time everything with a bunch of wrist roll going through the ball that throws the clubshaft into a spiraling parallel plane as Homer describes in TGM.

The chart is MPH and feet per second of clubhead travel, so I read it to be that the clubhead speed drops at about 4 or 5 inches… past initial contact… so I would suspect it is the back kicking of the shaft that creates the drop off in velocity..

I think a more interesting stat would be clubhead speed from pre impact compared to P4… so you take out the impact distortion stuff out of the equation.. because at that point you could really measure intention and commitment to principle..

Lag,

In Tommy Tomasello’s Aussie video series he demonstrates a swinging pattern but with the emphasis on hitting it hard with the right hand once the left hip has cleared and the elbow has reattached to the side of the body.

Im not sure if this is a hitting pattern or not, but from what I gather its a CF rt arm swing w/ a healthy dose of the rt. hand at the bottom. For what ever reason this pattern, for me at least, has been more repeatable than a traditional “oily wristed” left side dominated swing.

Would this be switting? Kinda seems like what Tommy Armour was teaching under the umbrella back in the day.

Thanks

He hit it with a health dose of right forearm. The right wrist is still bent at impact. TA too:)

TT knew that if the Bent Right Wrist flattens it destroyed his FLW and Flying Wedges. Bet he wished he could take that ‘take’ of video and burn it unless it was totally redone as a Right Arm Swing where he would have to explain the changes needed therein in comparison to the rest of the original video. A case of he meant educated hands drive through the ball, not hit at it with the hands.

His peers of the age passed that info onto me when I brought it up.

These are my linear acceleration rates with a 14.5 ounce 43 inch persimmon driver…

Not sure how much proof is needed… looks good to me…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag, what analysis was this graph from?

That graph makes no sense if indeed an actual ball was hit.Or there was an error in the measurements.

It shows acceleration absolutely unimpeded through impact as if the ball was not there…not even a little slow down?Impossible.

A little explanation of that graph would be good.