It’s just simply linear speed of the clubhead starting at some point in the backswing, down to and through the ball, and drops off in velocity as the energy of the club transfers to the ball.. makes sense to me..

The X axis is the clubhead travel in feet..

The Y is the MPH of the clubhead,

The vertical line is the impact or location of the ball.. pretty basic I think..

It all looks correct to me… I’d like to keep working on that post impact #
and that is just about all I ever work on anyway.. my entire golf swing is based upon increasing post impact velocity… accelerate as heavy a club as I can handle into impact and beyond so I can hit lots of greens and keep the ball on the golf course… no mystery..

This is all the cutting edge stuff everyone is excited about…

I actually think the best feedback is the golf ball flight itself…
I’d rather have the ball shaping through the air left or right, low or high, whatever I have designed for the shot… that’s my lab…

All the science stuff just seems to lead to more confusion, debate, and uncertainty, because you still have to be able to properly interpret the data, and trust that the experiment went correctly, and the machinery didn’t malfunction and so forth.

I find all of it at best “interesting” but I don’t put too much concern on charts and diagrams. Ball flight really tells the true story…

Bet he wished he could take that ‘take' of video and burn it unless it was totally redone as a Right Arm Swing where he would have to explain the changes needed therein in comparison to the rest of the original video. >

Paul,

I’m unsure what you mean here?

Are you saying that he should not have used the word “hit” in explaining his rt arm swing?

I also wanted to ask you about the TT Video (LBG) letters he did w/ Lee Deitrick. Some say he was teaching a different pattern from the Aussie vids?

Apparently throwing from the top, ala Austin/Croker.

Loren or anyone else please chime in as well….

Yes, the Deitrick Letters video was a different method.
Right arm throw on plane with no body involvement. Full sweep release. “The body does not lead, it follows.”
You can see a small visible left bump in the swing but the rest is body reaction only.
It’s been called a right arm swing and it’s been called a hit with horizontal hinging. A source of this method is said to be Harry Vardon who advised starting down with no body movement.
Leslie King taught a left-arm version of it.
CF throw-out is used for impact alignments.
TT demonstrated it as a hands throw, and an arm throw and wrist throw in the same clip.
Said, “The faster you do that the more power you generate.”
Evershed teaches a version of it.

I’ve used it for effortless, accurate swinging (or hitting). Still disappointed with distance though.
Justin Tang’s Armed for Power article in the Golf School may be based on this, but he says “shoulder throw, wrist throw” on YouTube, and gets a lot of velocity.

I assume Peter Croker picked it up from TT.

Austin said he did that, but I don’t see it. Heavy pivot action “spinning the flywheel” pulling the left arm across the chest. What he did do was lay the club off at the top as many good strikers do. Guards against OTT effects by going flat.
He makes a hand gesture demonstrating a wrist throw and says “It’s all over in the first 18 inches.” Funny, TT said the same thing.

Justin Tang also lays it off in the Golf School article and demonstrates an underhanded tossing motion.

The problem in the Aussie clip was “hit out at that ball” and “try to unbend the right wrist”.
The latter was an error for maintenance of the FLW through impact.
The former did not fit in a swinging procedure.

Good stuff Loren, as usuall. Couple questions. I thought swinging out to 1st base was what a CF swing did?

Also he did say “try to unbend the right wrist” but didnt he then say “you wont be able to do it” as long as you have the long rt arm?

Do you think his original pattern gave you more distance than the 2nd?

I was horsing around w/ both of his patterns tonight w/ a 7 iron and was amazed at how the “throwing from the top” version gave me great compression and “bacon strip” divots. Both patterns worked pretty good, interested in your thoughts, one over the other?

I also had to throw in some Gary Edwin too since he is pretty similar to TT :)

Thanks

Probably need a different thread for this.

I would say “out to first base, or down the first base line” is a hitting procedure; cross-line bump, angle of approach versus arc of approach. And that’s what TT demonstrates in his Basic Motion in the Deitrick Letter video in a hitting procedure. “We’re hitting it out to right field.” “Right forearm takes it back, right forearm pushes it through.”

In “try to unbend the right wrist” he did say “you won’t be able to do it”, but in fact students do it all the time. It’s just not good to suggest it.

He claimed to know 6 or 8 different methods and teach whichever one was closest. I think the pattern in the Aussie series would be more productive, as a hit, not a swing, similar to what Lag is demonstrating here in this thread. Drop it down (float it), pivot and hit it out, sustain. Not the usual hitting method seen elsewhere.
But at my age I’m looking for more effortless, leverage, or velocity.

Whatever the contribution of the body is I don’t think you can leave it lying on the table. We don’t know the precise question Lee asked TT to get a video letter like that. I talked with Lee and all he really wanted to talk about was on plane flying wedges into release zone, P3. Professed lack of memory.
At least one GSEM/PGA is highly infatuated with the Deitrick Letter method, teaches it to his students with reportedly good results, calls it hitting with horizontal hinging.
I think I’d call it a right arm swing.
And Evershed was top Canadian PGA instructor several years running. Says the power comes mainly from uncocking and rolling. Eschews the long right arm, goes directly into finish swivel.

You’re right about Gary Edwin being similar, to Evershed. Drop down start.

The X axis is the clubhead travel in feet..

That sounds a lot better than the ‘feet per second’ you mentioned before – I was thinking WTF? Speed vs Speed – that would be a straight line.

The 18” I mentioned before was assuming the x-axis was in NTSC frames, as your downswing does indeed take 5 – 6 frames. Knowing that, I agree your ball appears to be on your clubface for 4 or 5 inches – that’s still a remarkable increase from the 3/4” normally seen with persimmon. Pity Guru didn’t get a 1200fps shot of that.

ColtsFan, got the book?
Look up 10-3-K Bat minor, frozen right wrist, with Pitch (or Slap) Major basic stroke. Stiff wristed is a hit, loosened wrists a right arm swing.
See bottom of 7-19 and all of 7-3 comprising Magic of the Right Forearm.
Forgive me if you’ve been through all that.

But at my age I'm looking for more effortless, leverage, or velocity.

Loren,

Based on this thinking, which exactly where Im at BTW, do you think the Aussie vid pattern may provide this better than the “throw from the top” pattern.

With regards to starting a new TT thread, Im all for that, but this is a TGM thread and TT was one of Homers first students I believe?

Thanks

ColtsFan, I can’t make a recommendation.

Send me an e-mail.

ok, will do….

Lag, in viewing your pictures, it appears that you bend your right wrist back on takeaway, and then unbend the right wrist into the ball.

Obviously you don’t flip, your right wrist isn’t fully unbent until post impact, so you’re bring a stressed club into impact.

Similar to what Tom Tomasello taught.

This is slightly different from some versions of hitting where people preset their bent right wrist, carry it to the top with right forearm pickup and then drive through impact.

Great looking motion…

I am a believer that if you want to learn to strike the ball really well, there is a wealth of information left behind from just viewing the great golf swings of the past, such as Hogan, Snead, Player, Norman, (both of them) and so forth..

Homer’s work, as excellent as it is, is still mostly observation based, unlike Hogan’s epic “Five Lessons” where he is describing a lot of feel and intention.

I believe that for Homer’s work to have credibility, it must support, and not deny the golf swing of Ben Hogan, or any of the greats, and I believe that Homer’s work does in fact support exactly what Hogan was saying. You have to read carefully though…

Homer’s work intended to describe all possible ways of moving a golf ball, no matter how absurd some of the variations are. Describing zero pivot motions and such.. I’m not sure why he took that approach, but it causes a lot of unnecessary material to have to sift through..

Homer never comes right out and says, “This is really the best way to do it”

Hogan on the other hand, tells us exactly what is the best way to do it. He backs it up, and no one has ever shown us a better way..I am so amazed at Hogan’s work, as both a ball striker and champion, but also as an author of golf instruction. We would not be wise to disregard what he said because it doesn’t seem to make sense.

If you really look at Homer’s work, he gives you the answer to Hogan’s swing, or any great ball striker that used Hogan’s protocol..

You have to understand 2-P and 2 M-3… this is the key, and it proves to me that Homer did in fact understand what happens in the golf swing of Hogan.

In a nutshell this is it..

“Centrifugal force ALONE uncocks the swingers wrists, but right arm thrust during release is the hitter procedure”

He then says, “these procedures are not compatible” meaning you can’t do both at the same time,
it’s one or the other.. UNLESS 2-M_3

and what does 2-M-3 say?

“Unless PIVOT THRUST!!!! actually DRIVES #4 accumulator THROUGH IMPACT!!!!”

YES YOU CAN TO BOTH!!

I must say, that when I re read this I found it a bit shocking that Homer would use the word “unless” as if it is some type of oddity,
that a golfer would actually use his pivot to drive the primary lever assembly into impact… (the left arm and clubshaft)

and if you look at 4-D-1 Homer warns against the potential hazard of hitter’s throwaway with the right wrist flattening through impact which would disturb the FLW (flat left wrist) then what does he do?
He of course refers over to 2-P which sends you right back to 2-M-3.

“Unless PIVOT THRUST!!!! actually DRIVES #4 accumulator THROUGH IMPACT!!!!”

and there goes the warning.. no more warning…

And this takes you right to Hogan.. pivot thrust not only to impact….. but …THROUGH impact…!!

Homer talks about it again, when referring to his primary lever assembly…6-A-2 (The Primary Lever Assembly) which is simply the angle of the left arm to the clubshaft..he makes it quite clear that this Lever assembly CAN be propelled by BOTH the pivot at #4 and the right arm.. he clearly uses the word AND.

So anyone that thinks that hitting is just a straightening of the right arm, or right arm thrust down to the ball with no pivot is absolutely correct.. you can “technically” hit a golf ball like that… but you’re not going to hit the ball very good, and not very far.. without a pivot.

Homer is very clear in 6-B-4-0

The Pivot (body power) is the Accumulator of Accumulators, the Master Accumulator.

I can assure you that Hogan was quite well aware of this, and had no interest in “pulling the plug” on the master accumulator at impact, and just letting go and throwing the arms off the body…

Homer’s work can be very cryptic, and easily misunderstood..
but it’s for the most part… all there..

Power Accumulator #4 has been known in these forums as the Master Accumulator as it is where the flying wedges tied into the torso and therefore where it all hangs together with what the pivot is doing.

Also #4 and Pressure Point #4, the feel of the left arm to upper torso, is what allows you to control #4 Power Accumulator.

For those wondering a little, when you throw a ball its 90% right arm thrust, traveling on a pivot platform. An arm only throw is not as strong as one with a spinning torso (on a braced target side leg).

That’s a great analogy Guru,

so why do you think Homer was so reluctant to really stress the value of such a protocol in TGM?

You really have to chase the book around to get there…

I have never understood why he would suggest in 12-1-0 (basic pattern for hitters) to zero out the pivot until that is first mastered “until it approaches the expert stage”.

How can you ever be an expert in “anything golf” without a highly effective pivot?

He really must have meant something else, of which I do not know..

There was a guy on my golf team in college that could shoot 75 playing golf with just the left arm…. no right arm on the club…

But how can you play any kind of respectable golf, zeroing out the pivot for all intent and purpose?

Pivot driven hitters should be the absolute standard and not the
“unless” or “if only” version…

My book is only 5th edition, did he ever clean up this nonsense in later revisions?

Homers Zone One is the clue. Use of the pivot a correct way for the power packages to utilise. Basic, Aquired then total motion.

The impression I have been given from those in the know more than I is that I think that he meant learn how to hit with your arms off a quiet pivot before trying to add more accumulators. Each barrel of course makes it harder to coordinate the shot.

Well said, Lag. We teach every one of our golf school students to hit the ball with their pivot, with NO independent muscle power action from either arm for either accuracy or power, as our Basic Motion or starting point. Hard to believe it until I or my staff has you there in person, since there are so many visual and feel Illusions that literally prevent you from seeing how this can be true.

No left arm swinging or pulling and no right arm driving or hammering or pushing. Just pure Pivot Thrust.

Of course it is possible to do both swing and hit in TGM terms (regarding the release) at the same time as Lag notes in his post. When you Pivot, you create centrifugal force, when you post up into your Left Wall of Resistance, and the inevitable decel of the body occurs, COAM happens. Both these things are always present in a good golf swing and they will create some degree of passive opening of the wrist angle. Speeding that opening up by using forearm and wrist muscles and/or right tricep hammering/hitting action is a possible option. But one we seldom recommend to anyone about 6 handicap or higher, since in our experience this is already happening – although much earlier than from P3 or a bit later – due to the Hit Impulse.

Later Pivot Thrust Triggering like Hogan did does require it or the clubhead won’t bottom out in time with the body pivot.

I have never understood why he would suggest in 12-1-0 (basic pattern for hitters) to zero out the pivot until that is first mastered ’Äúuntil it approaches the expert stage”

Dear lag,

Why I can’t see the Zero out pivot 12-1-0? Are you talking about 12-5-1?

Later Pivot Thrust Triggering like Hogan did… does require it or the clubhead won't bottom out in time with the body pivot.

and that’s the “I wish I had three right hands” thing…

I don’t think the super fast post impact pivot of Hogan is nearly as impossible as it seems… it’s generated from the ground forces in the feet, and Gary Player really hand that down as much as Hogan did.
You just have to know how to do it, and I think that is what Sevam1 talks about in his book. “It’s in the dirt”.

On Homer,

He certainly seemed to have an infatuation with the unusual and bizarre in his attempt at covering all the possible swing variations under both the sun and moon…

You really have to chase all over the book to get to what he really knows is the superior way to do things…

There is so much in chapter two it’s mind boggling.. but it’s there… if you really follow the treasure map.. he tells you loud and clear what to do… but not quite how to do it..

Sometimes I wonder if he didn’t really know “the how” as much as we are sometimes led to believe. For example, I have yet to find anywhere in TGM where Homer addresses the options for utilizing ground forces to increase pivot velocity through and post impact.. it should be another separate component complete with multiple variations for a chapter 7 and 10 entry…

He talks how the teaching of the golf swing should start at the feet,
but then only talks about foot positioning, and weight transfers.
There is a lot more to it than that..

If he knew, then it’s only on the secret audio tapes or whatever.. it never passed down to Doyle or Mc Hatton that’s for sure.. the martial arts guys sure know it, and so did Hogan and Player, and a slew of guys from that early era because of the heavier clubs..

KOC,

I only have a 5th edition book! there is no 12-5-1…! lol

12-1-0 in my edition is (Drive Loading Basic Pattern for Hitting)
which suggests golfer start off with zero or minimal pivot to learn hitting which I personally find beyond absurd…

I stand firm in the concrete that the three stations (hands, arms, body) MUST be cross trained in unison and and in sync, even if that is just a short chip shot… hit or swing…

His suggestion that you master hitting as a 1+2+3 barrel motion (minimal or zero pivot), until that approaches an expert level, to me, seems ludicrous… for one, I have never seen it done, and two, I don’t think it could be done with anything that would closely resemble “expert looking” golf.

I can’t tell you how many people I have know over the years that have gone at the book alone, and thought hitting would be a good idea….so they go to Homer’s suggested stroke pattern and think they can learn to play golf by not having to use much, if any pivot, and just start punching their right arm at the ball with a FLW and a P4 disconnect… NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

But it’s very easy to draw that conclusion from what he has there..

If the path to The Emerald City is by way of The Yellow Brick Road,
then that recommendation is the tornado back to Kansas…

Strange stuff indeed…

I see. There are lots of changes from 5th to 6th then…even more in the 7th.

12-1-0, pivot component is listed as standard.

Regarding zero out the pivot, it is 12-5-1, BASIC MOTION two feet in both directions. Zero out
the Pivot, Shoulder Turn and Accumulator #3.

I used to query about the zero pivot, but once I understood that this Basic Motion Curriculum is the Follow-Through, Stroke Section 11 and when I ‘pre-positioned’ my Right Shoulder (down On Plane) to allow a Follow-Through of this length, it is so easy to perform a Single Barrel Stroke, no matter left arm or right forearm.

Although I am living in a small place in Hong Kong, I can do that on my carpet with a mirror to practise G.O.L.F.

Right again, Lag on your critique of right arm hitting action. What often goes completely overlooked by most folks, to the point where I have made this part of a chapter in my new book, is the actual direction or dimension of the right arm angle opening. Little or none of it is in the horizontal dimension, or through or past the ball position, which is how we apply our power to direct the ball to our target.

Only a tiny amount of that lever energy is expended in the horizontal dimension from the pitch position, where the elbow is leading the hand. The pivot creates the optical illusion and the feel illusion that this angle is independently opening up in the horizontal dimension as well as the down and out dimension.

Only reason we need to use the down and out dimensions in golf is because we stand to the side of the golf ball and it rests on the ground. Power and clubhead speed in those directions does not directly contribute to the ball flying in the horizontal dimension to our target. But we need some speed in those two dimensions to be in synch with the pivot in order to make solid contact.

One of the really Big Secrets in golf is synchronizing your Down/Out dimension clubhead speed with your Horizontal dimension body speed. THE timing issue in the golf swing. Which is another way of explaining why the late Hoganesque Pivot Thrust Trigger requires a later wrist cock release trigger to match it, and an active muscle-powered wrist cock release to make certain the wrist is un-cocking fast enough to keep in time with the pivot.

I think Homer did realize the role of pivot…”The mechanical device has no balance problem but the human machine does, and mastery of the Pivot (Zone #1) is so essential for good Golf.”

Pivot train 6-M-1
Power Package Transport 7-12

Anyone know the word count of “pivot” in 6th edition? (I buy you beer if you know, haha)

But, I also believe that Hogan disclosed “secret” was mostly related to Hands and Arms components…such as how many degrees of my left wirst cupped, how to roll my arm, supination & Pronation. Hogan also spent plenty of pages in 5 lessons book on Grip.

There is no absolute Yin, there is no absolute Yang, make good use of Yin and Yang.

Thanks KOC for some very good posts above.

Lag you need a copy of the 6th or 7th edition to find a way to your reading table:)

Zeroing out the pivot is a way to learn where the flying wedges get delivered before you add pivot. Then Aquired Motion and total motion must have the pivot involved for hitter or a swinger unless you want to play chip and putt.

... unless you want to play chip and putt.

That could be the case in 100 years if technology isn’t limited.

Regarding zero out the pivot, it is 12-5-1, BASIC MOTION two feet in both directions. Zero out
the Pivot, Shoulder Turn and Accumulator #3.

I used to query about the zero pivot, but once I understood that this Basic Motion Curriculum is the Follow-Through, Stroke Section 11 and when I ‘pre-positioned' my Right Shoulder (down On Plane) to allow a Follow-Through of this length, it is so easy to perform a Single Barrel Stroke, no matter left arm or right forearm.

I must say I’m a bit confused about the basic motion. Two-feet in either direction is nothing – I’ve got to visualise I’m doing a delicate chip to a tight pin even to swing an iron that short. Yet many TGM clips I’ve seen of people doing what I assumed was the basic motion are actually doing quite strong chips, probably going back to P1 and travelling maybe 30 yards..

And then Lag’s graph above shows his driver clubhead only has 5.5 feet travel between top and impact (if indeed x-axis is in feet as Lag indicated). If I step my driver back foot by foot from impact until I reach 5.5 feet, the club is just past the first parallel. I know Lag swings back further than that.

Also the acquired motion curriculum 12-5-2 also indicates zero to minimal pivot, but adding any required shoulder turn. Isn’t shoulder turn part of pivot?

Not adding up.

Also – in ‘right arm hitting’ motion, would I be correct to say that if the arm outraces the body at any point – i.e. if it isn’t behind the sternum or thereabouts with elbow leading hand – you’re hitting a bad shot.

You can get maybe get away with it on short irons.

Beezneeds – yes, you always need both arms (elbow to hand) behind the sternum or body mid-line to hit a good shot (forward swing). Only exception is one version of flop shot with L wedge, arms can move across mid-line a bit through impact. “Good shot” by expert golfer standards, many high handicappers can occassionally hit a “good shot” by their standards with an arms across mid-line motion – a lot of luck involved though, and of course it would not be considered a “good shot” in terms of distance and solidness and spin by expert players standards, but if it goes straight and up in the air and a reasonable distance, the high handicap is happy.

Steb, yes the right shoulder is part of both the power package and the pivot.
As part of the power package it is explicity not excluded from pivotless strokes by the text elsewhere.

We’ll I’m glad I am not alone in being a bit thrown off by Homer’s basic hitting (drive loading) hitting pattern.

The swinger’s version, basic pattern…. GETS TO USE THE PIVOT!

If this is what Homer was teaching his 12 disciples as they received their atonement near the Ballard Locks in Seattle, it’s no wonder they all took off on the swinging version of TGM! lol

I had never heard of anyone using TGM hitting until O’Grady came along and strongly put out there… that swinging was a flawed method, and “hitting” was in fact what Homer preferred. Mac claimed that Homer was quite outspoken about it.. and the entire direction of TGM might very well have taken a completely different direction had Mac come to prominence BEFORE Clampett.

In the early-mid 1980’s I was hypnotized into a trance like state of swinging, where there was no other method worthy of consideration. I probably couldn’t have seen a great TGM hitter, even if one were standing 5 feet right in front of me, with the yellow book dangling from his neck.

The 2-M-3 version of hitting that I embrace, seems to be completely ignored in TGM circles from what I can see.. yet everything I have read in Homer’s work, if you really look at it closely, and chase the cat’s tail, it points right at 2-M-3.. right at it…

The #4 accumulator driving the primary lever assembly, not just offering “delivery, guidance and support of the power package” as Homer says…

Homer knew this..

The bulk of 2-M-3 he talks about very cryptically I might add, that with a driver, you need both pivot thrust and a #3 thrust… and where is that #3 thrust going to come from?

The right hand, Hogan’s three right hands… Snead’s “I hit the ball as hard as I can with the right hand”...

This is the thing.. IT’S NOT A PASSIVE #3.

Why?

Because if the pivot is accelerating with passive hands through impact, the clubface will NOT square up in time, and you’ll be walking down the right hand boundary of the golf course looking for your golf ball forever.

Homer throws you over to 4-D-0 because he knows that you better understand release motions of the hands, and we get another clue there, about how hitters much concentrate on HAND MOTION. And in not so many words tells us that the hands must throw the clubface at the ball… but only of course if we use a maximum trigger delay wrist cock…

You really have to jump all over the place, but it’s right there, and it lands you right into Hogan.

Number #3 is not the right hand at all. #3 accumulator 6-b-3-0. It’s all clubshaft and left forearm and keeping them in line. Hitters have simultaneous uncock and roll into an angled hinge via the straightening right arm and the #3 is via the lefts roll, a no roll feel.

Number #4 guides and can be blasted off the chest but it is the weakest and so the last ounce of power that can be added if you have to use it.

Number #2 is the wrist cock and uncocking motion.

Number #1 is the right arm straightening – either hitting or being driven down plane in a passive sense for a swinger.

2-M-3 states the obvious that you need a pivot if you are going to hit the ball with everything you can muster (and control).

Hogan never hit the ball with his right hand with a flattening wrist. That is what most readers assume he did and read into “hit it with your hands”. The mexico clip I posted above shows clearly he maintained his right wrist bend through impact and into his follow through. he set the bend early in his takeaway. He thrust hard via his forearm through the ball and of course his hands felt the thrust.

That was Homers ‘throw the flying wedge at the ball’ as a hitter. Or swing the flying wedge through the ball.

Watching some learn how to hit who are natural swingers is always interesting. Learning how to thrust on an active pivot in the early part of the scheme of things brings home fast that they are totally different actions. Get a putter out and learn to hit a putt rather than swing it. Then chip hitting. OK now we are using the right arm to throw the handle at the ball drive loading it rather than drag loading it. NOW add a pivot to that and you have a heap of power.

For those who missed those basic steps, yep swinging and only teaching that made a heap of sense.

Lagpressure mistyped #3 when he meant #1, or there’s another typo in the book.

His 5th edition must have a typo under Pivot, component 12.
7th edition says “A” Standard.

7th Edition 2-M-3 says “Only with the driver must you use both pivot thrust and power package thrust (right arm) for lack of a longer club. To pivot thrust (shoulder turn) add a strong pressure point #1 thrust (right arm, power package), or to power package thrust add the shoulder turn.”

(qualifiers in parentheses are mine)

Not #3.

Hitting or swinging, the right forearm is active, being driven out or thrown out, and at least doing extensor action. The difference is that in swinging it’s a non-accelerating force.

Let’s put up the whole delivery, guidance, support quote.

2-M-3
“Unless pivot thrust actually drives #4 accumulator through impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the power package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during delivery.”

i.e. it’s optional.

Dart’s a hitter, Lynn Blake’s a hitter, Ted Fort switched over from swinging to hitting and uses 4-barrels. I think they’re all using Punch major though instead of Pitch. Different elbow position.

I think Lynn said he was in the 2nd class, and he and Tomasello had gone to Homer together, so maybe TT was in that class also.
Ben was in the first class. Heh, maybe he was the only member.

Lynn quotes Homer as saying to teach swinging first as “anybody can swing in their sleep” but that “You’re gonna love hitting.”
He also said “You’re gonna want to insure the right forearm and the #3 pressure point”. (swinging or hitting)

Homer preferred hitting and also preferred starting from impact fix, at least for hitting.
Dart differs with Homer on ease of teaching swinging, saying “I can teach someone to hit in 5 swings.” But the neuroplasticity takes 6 months. He has a point.
Lynn says on the Alignment video “We teach swinging first because CF takes care of so much of the alignments for you.”
I’m with Dart on this one.
Hitting is more in the hands, swinging in the wrists.

“The swinger's version, basic pattern…. GETS TO USE THE PIVOT!”

12-5-1 Basic Motion for swinging also required a zero out pivot.

Lag was talking about 12-1-0, 12-2-0, Basic Patterns, not 12-5-1 Basic Motion.
But while we’re on the subject, right shoulder doesn’t count as pivot in the swinger’s pivotless Basic Motion, just to reiterate the conversation with Steb above. It’s always a question.
Can use the right shoulder in Basic Motion in its role as part of the power package.

5th edition says…

Only with the driver must you use both Pivot and Power Package for lack of a longer Club. In which case – to Pivot Thrust add as strong Pressure Point #3.

No typo….

or which ones the typo? edition 5 or 7? Who knows…

Also,

If I hold the club only in my right hand…. I can have the club at P3 parallel, and even cocked back to 4:30 on the ball… and I am just as able to uncock my right wrist, and also rotate my right forearm just as I would, or could, uncock and rotate my left wrist and forearm..

Additionally I can further add a greater range of motion to this right forearm rotation if I hit with the right hand from a pitch or leading elbow position… it’s the pitch position that helps get the shaft more pointed to the inside quadrant at P3.

These both happen just as Guru says, together in unison.

In my 5th addition book, 6-B-3-0 states,

Exact quote:

“The third Power Accumulator #3 is formed by the angle established between the clubshaft and either Forearm…the Swinger’s left forearm for the “Throw Out” action of centrifugal force or the hitter’s right forearm for the right hand drive out action OR the right arm paddle wheel action.

Homer makes it clear as day that the #3 accumulator is accessible to either arm.

The right forearm of course can rotate and it is free to do so… and the right wrist can also uncock. Hitter do them both, uncock, and rotate into impact… with both hands simultaneously. They have to.

Makes perfect sense to me, and I don’t see a problem with the 2-M-3 version being either #3 or #1 or both together in a four barrel hitting version… as long as the pivot is driving the primary lever assembly, and the #4 accumulator through impact via the hitters protocol…

KOC,

In the 5th addition,

Basic Patterns:

12-1-0 hitters, stroke variation: triple barrel (1+2+3)only, no pivot

12-2-0 swingers, (2+3+4) pivot included for basic stroke.

Hopefully that was revised in later editions…

the chapter ends at 12-4

13-0 is a half page for non interchangeable components.

14-0 is three pages on the computer..

The clubhead travel extent of #3 has more leeway with a HH than an AH. So its a degree of use that a hitter gets vs a swinger.

Homer never suggested having the right wrist cocked. Bent yes but not cocked. Bent too far and you slip off plane. Again possible but not suggested.

Grab a 6th edition, it was the last Homer did himself. Ed 7 had helping hands.

that is one of those Homer things that never made sense to me, because I can cock both my wrists the same amount, and I can’t for any reason understand why I would not want to have both wrists fully cocked and turned at P3, so I can have as much range of motion to let the ball have it with the hands at the bottom (not from the top)

It’s certainly consistent with what both Hogan and Snead talk about.

I also like to hit from a pitch position, but that can only happen if you have very strong and fast hands, and most golfers don’t, and I think Homer knew this, and that is why I would assume he didn’t talk about that much as an option, but it is an option…

Most TGM hitting videos I have seen, look like, not much #3 with a more closed clubface at P3, and it looks like more of a “trap it” action as I think some have tried to describe…

I love the feeling of a ton of #3 coming into impact, (fully turned and rotated open clubface) but I don’t like it then rolling over…

it’s more like a door hitting the jamb… you could think of the wall as the pivot, so once that door hits the jamb, that’s it for #3…. done.. spent over… no more… then the whole wall moves, the master accumulator, and just takes over from there over to P4. The wrist cock #2 resist the CF inline position as much as possible too, holding wrist cock though and beyond impact…

Homer’s 1F… “The mystery of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood”.

I think this is still the on going mystery for TGM, and we have to look at extensor action too.. because it is a function of the right arm… both for hitters and swingers..

What is a hitter’s frozen right arm? To me it is a right arm that is resisting straighten, due to the direction of it’s intended extensor action. Is that extensor action directing it’s force down the shaft line? Is it going out to right field? or somewhere else?

I don’t think most people that are applying it have it right…

Agreed that #3 and #1 pressure points are often felt and used simultaneously by the hitter to mean the same thing. So #3 could be used to refer to right arm thrust although it usually means “roll” transfer power accumulator. Think there’s a typo in the 5th.

Uncock and roll are done simultaneously and continuously by the hitter. And since unbending the right elbow uncocks the left wrist, the implication is that it’s all simultaneous.

6-B-3-0 Yeah, that’s been rewritten also leaving out the “either forearm” in favor of Left Forearm only. But then the description of the Photos makes reference to, but does not demonstrate, a Left Forearm version and a Right Forearm version. But “paddlewheel” has largely been taken out in favor of just “angle hinging”. The right forearm has to make a “fanning” motion anyway for both Pitch and Punch.
Homer didn’t have an editor, or a competent one, and it shows. Would be a big job.

The following is not necessarily for you, just general audience:

Pitch or Punch are preferences for elbow position. Both are “fanning” but punch is more straight line and pitch is more underhanded slapping motion.
Not a lot of difference, but Pitch, in front of the hipbone, allows greater travel for maximum trigger delay for snap release. The Hitter’s basic stroke pattern 12-1-0 specifies Punch.

4-barrel is optional. But the right arm can straighten only as the left arm moves away from the shoulder area. Release order is 4,1,2,3.

10-4-D Four Barrel
High performance four accumulator combination difficult to master but can make the difference in top competition.
Well-controlled double or triple barrel combinations have little to fear from the less than fully mastered four barrel.

Ted Fort professes to be 4-barrel, but he says that the #4 accumulator is very brief to avoid letting CF get out in front and take over. He uses punch elbow and non-auto random sweep, at-side release, after releasing the #4. Or overriding it.
But he continues to drive the right shoulder down plane using it as a platform off which to launch the right arm thrust. He’s ahead of CF.

He uses alternate plane, angle of approach and bumps cross-line.
Starts at impact fix.

After low-point he continues to drive down plane through follow-through, per 1-L-15.

Bottom line, pivot power doesn’t stop when no accumulator #4 is present.

Hits it a ton. Big guy.

Again, we’re back with Ben Hogan’s hand action – the single most important thing in his swing (according to BH himself).

He says supinating is the key to his swing, and I’m inclined to believe it.

How does it work? In my opinion:

His left hand is ‘supinating’ – rolling and at the same time transitioning from slight cup to FLW (i.e. slight arch). His right hand is powering through but in doing so it is helping his left hand to perform that process.

Most people think right hand power has to result in left hand breakdown. It doesn’t – not Hogan’s way, because the power of the ‘three right hands’ coming through are actually helping the FLW be maintained.

Why? Because the left forearm is rolling so much through impact.

Because of his hand action, the right hand power adds ROLL. It does not (CAN NOT!) contribute to FLW breakdown.

That’s why he wants all the right hand power – because the path he has (ingeniously) constructed for his left forearm and left wrist can never be wrong, and his FLW can never break down.

Music to my ears. I wish I could have said that.

Hmmmm,

so why are we now talking about “Lag’s” golf machine?

Who changed the thread title and why?

Had a long discussion with Kenny about 10-24-F “Flip release”...

I think we should really work out the different between HAND CONTROLLED PIVOT & PIVOT CONTROLLED HAND.

I, JMHO, believe Homer terms “Hand Controlled Pivot” and “Pivot Controlled Hands” does not mean “hand request the pivot” or “Pivot in response to hand” stuffs ….

I see these 2 terms as monitoring HANDS or PIVOT with Controlled Pivot or Controlled Hands respectively.

So many unnecessary disagreements were arisen with Hand control pivot or pivot control hand, seeing or treating the word controlled as control. As Homer said: always a dictionary definition.

Con¬…trolled – adjective
Con¬…trol – Verb

Just like Educated Hands (adjective with a noun)
Controlled Pivot
Controlled Hands

Although Homer said you zero out the pivot, shoulder turn…in basic motion training, but it requires you have a follow-through body alignment, i.e. right shoulder down plane, hip cleared, weight shifted, or simply…whole body. With your hands at rest, you just can't request your body to go to where it should be. If you to ask a total beginner to go from standard address to impact, there will be a lot of works for you to do, that is als a process to ingrain “Controlled Pivot”. Left or right arm…your choice, but you better monitor your hands (Ben Doyle's wording: Hands in my mind) instead of the clubhead.

Flip release, controlled hands type of swing with pivot motion all in mind.

May I say “Please don’t take it too serious as it is just a thought from a hacker” and I will not find any clip to support the above opinion or aurgy with any disagreement.

There certainly are differences between 5th edition and 6th or 7th edition versions of the book…

I can see how my own swing is much more based upon 5th edition concepts than later revisions.

It really make me wonder what other things have been omitted or changed… I’m not convinced it’s all for the better…

Pitch, in front of the hipbone, allows greater travel for maximum trigger delay for snap release. The Hitter's basic stroke pattern 12-1-0 specifies Punch.

and sure, greater travel can be utilized if you have the hand speed to deal with GREATER TRAVEL!

The hitter’s basic stroke in 12-1-0 also suggests zero pivot, so I have to take Homer’s recommendation for “basic” as just that, basic..

You can hit with the right arm from pitch if you want to, Hogan did it..
more delay, which tends to contribute to a greater angle with the primary lever assembly.. which in turn requires faster stronger hands to get the clubface squared up if you’re hitting. You CAN’T do this if you don’t have the hands to do it… but if you can, it’s great stuff because you can get the open forearm rotation of a swingers #3 without the downside of the swingers hinge.. you can still angle hinge it.. just like what BEEZ was talking about… but with the clubface closing from pivot rotation and not an independent action of the hands flipping way over..

KOC,

It’s understandable the debate over hands controlling pivot or visa versa..

I like this idea better…

The computer (brain) controls them both simultaneously.

The hands and the pivot need to be married to one another through a cohesive tension and awareness…

better than independent motion ending up in divorce court.

My take on the Hands vs Pivot debate is simply this: there are two neurological “systems” your brain uses in a golf swing. A “feed forward” system of brain sending unconscious instructions or motor programs to your muscles via motor nerves, and a “feedback” system, based primarily in your hands, that uses sensory nerves and some level of conscious awareness – however subtle – regarding hand path, hand speed, lag pressure feel in the hands from clubhead mass, clubface position (through the feel of back of left hand or palm of right hand location in space), balance, rhythm, tempo and a few other fundamentals.

The feed forward system is Pivot Controlled Hands which is what is objectively occuring from the standpoint of physics and mechanics for the most part in a good golf swing, ie the Hands only job is to hold on to the club with the proper grip pressure, their ONLY job mechancially, NOT their only job. Their only job from the motor program/feed forward systems point of view. Hands are NOT the wrists, a common linguistic conflation in golf discussions. (Maybe HK should have entitled his chapter Educated Wrists?)

Pivot Controlled Hands is the feedback or “sensory feedback loop” system which has the ability – to some degree – to change the Pivot to enhance the golf swing’s effectiveness, ie to compensate for a “mistake” that is noticed at the pre-conscious or even conscious level. There are limits to this ability to sense and then compensate for certain. In my experience, golfers who have a really reliable sensory feedback loop system have above average athletic ability, stronger than average feel sense body awareness skills, and they already have reasonably sound fundamental mechanics, ie their feed forward system is highly functional so there is less need to compensate and their inevitable compensations are “smaller” in nature.

The feed back and feed forward concepts are now widely accepted in the neuroscience community as fact. Golfers and especially golf teachers should be aware of this and adjust their thinking accordingly.

There is more to the whole issue than just this explanation for sure, but this is a good starting point, in my opinion.

Lag, forgive me, where’d you see “frozen right arm”?
I said “frozen right wrist”, from the description of 10-3-K, paraphrased below.

What is a hitter's frozen right arm? To me it is a right arm that is resisting straightening, due to the direction of its intended extensor action. Is that extensor action directing its force down the shaft line? Is it going out to right field, or somewhere else?”

Extensor action is always on the line of the left arm, wherever, and thus below plane.
The left arm is a “checkrein” on the right arm bend which is always trying to straighten.

Pitch is a viable variation of the component in the Hitter’s basic stroke pattern. The basic stroke pattern is a suggested set of components to be mastered before substituting other variations, for customizing. (Your “zero pivot” has to be a typo.)

Perhaps the component should say “K Bat” instead of either Punch or Pitch in the basic stroke pattern. Is there a “Hit” that does not use “Bat” minor? Elbow position optional.

Description: (Minor basic strokes, Arm Motions)
10-3-K Bat ...accelerated by right arm…always axe handle procedure…always a “Hit” ...when used with any Major Basic Stroke (Punch, Pitch, Push) can produce full power.

For the “basic” execution of this procedure, “freeze” the right wrist in its Impact Fix position. ...

Uncomplicated procedure…The Bat guarantees simultaneous release motions (4-D-0).

Extensor action is always on the line of the left arm, wherever, and thus below plane.

Yes of course,

and where does below plane point to post impact? DOWN AND LEFT
not down and out…

Down at out is what we see visually as the club hits the ball then moves farther down the plane into the ground to reach low point.. this is very subtle stuff.. we see maybe one inch of visual perception that the clubhead is moving in a direction out from us past the ball.. all these huge inside out divots created by a lot of forward shaft lean to insure the FLW is highly suspect as being good geometry.

Why?

Because for one, you have to go off plane (into P4) to do it.. more of an equal-angular parallel plane, not an on plane situation.

Second,

You have to disconnect at the 4th pressure point to do it..
Why?

The distance between the left shoulder and the ball is a set distance.. so you can either maintain wristcock post impact and preserver an onplane clubshaft and primary lever assembly, or you can substitute wristcock for “forward shaft lean” out and away from the body, but this is really more of an off plane equal angular spiral effect or the shaft at best moving into a parallel plane situation (before P4)..

Homer says it right here… in 2-J-3

“if the golfer uses the angle of approach method, momentum will carry the clubhead ABOVE PLANE after impact.”

Above plane sounds like off plane to me…

I always questioned what Doyle and McHatton taught about post impact swing plane and it was interesting to come across this again from Homer..

Maybe this has been revised too in recent additions…

Lag,

Can’t find your quoted in my 6th edition.

Something similar but not that.
Does yours talk about alternate 10-5-E plane?
Hard to understand.
The explanation is in 2-N-0.

This is tough stuff. Since they’re just visual equivalents of the true geometric base line delivery line, why not just use it?

Not sure what extensor action on the line of the left arm has to do with it though.

I’ve seen the alternate closed plane of Angle of Approach explained, and understood it at the time, but don’t recall. The key seemed to be that impact point and low-point were on both planes, making the alternate closed plane angle very steep, such that the clubhead visually covered the angle of approach line.
My impression was that the clubhead path was unchanged, i.e. equivalency.

That’s really interesting that Homer took that out too…

He seems to have taken out all the things that my golf swing is based upon! lol

At the bottom of 2-J-3

Exact quote from Homer:

“With the Angle of Approach delivery, momentum carries the clubhead above plane after Impact – the arc of approach tends to hold it on plane. All this is a last ditch effort to generate the On Plane Inside Out Impact – because unless you learn to do it NOTHING ELSE MATTERS OR WORKS.”

and that is not me putting in those caps… obviously Homer was really trying to drive home this point… and then he deletes it in the next edition?

Very strange and mysterious indeed…

I agree exactly with what Homer says here in the 5th edition..
I used to quiz Mc Hatton about this, and he eluded that the swing plane did actually go inside out to right field for swingers and that it was however still on plane.. but my 10,000 shutter frame camera told me a completely different story… that the blasting of the arms off the body created an off plane situation.. just as Homer describes here…

And he changed 2-M-3 as well?

Homer’s Secret?

Improved, not removed.
Don’t think Homer would be interested in “secrets”.
7 editions, 55 years?
When is it good enough?

It’s interesting to me that this conversation has taken a turn into the right side, including the right arm.

You guys do a great job of fitting it into the ideals of the Golfmachine…. but I find it interesting because I have discovered it in an entirely different way. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s great that you can identify the move with numbers, and letters, etc, etc, but I found it easier to think of it as punching something (I referred to a ‘midget’ in my post on my impact bag drills, but I suppose that might be politically incorrect).

The trick is setting up the move, not doing it. IMHO. If you set it up wrong the result is terrible. If you are doing it at the right time, I have found I can do it as bloody hard as I want… punching right through that… invisible little person’s head. ;)

I hit on all cylinders that day, and I haven’t quite refound it since that day (but I’ve been very close), but I’m on my way out to the range to find it again. BUT the good news is, this move is still present, and I think if any hitter (I have no idea about swinging) looks at it as a massive punch, it’s easy to visualize the body parts required because if I think of a true knock out blow, it involves EVERYTHING. The shoulder, the coil, the core, the legs, and of course the arm and hand.

I have only recently discovered why back a few months ago, I could not even suggest powering up my right side like this (big slice). This is such a fun move though. At times the golf swing feels too…. delicate to me, but this is the one part of it I personally feel the green light to get as aggressive as I want without negative effect. This might be what Ben referred to as ‘3 right hands’ or whatever the quote is.

Sorry for the lack of technical explanation of my own interpretation. Who knows I could be even talking about something different entirely. It would take someone far smarter than me to know. ;)

That’s a great description in spite of it’s political incorrectness! You guys don’t worry about that as much above the 49th Parallel right? lol

For those of you who have not read Prots’ thread about working on his previous “trainwreck” golf swing, basically he has been working on my version of TGM based concepts and drills over the past three months.

Basically what we have done is move his release point from the top of the start down… to near the bottom… by way of training his hands to fire from a properly cocked and loaded P3 position. I moved him from a passive hand throw to an active hand hit. We worked also on proper synchronizing of the pivot to enable this to work effectively as it should.
Also we worked a lot on ground pressures and lower body pivot activation and support.

It’s encouraging to see positive progress happening quickly in about 12 weeks. For a guy who had a vicious OTT, slice, to now being capable of flushing a blade 3 iron off the deck with a nice draw, it’s a nice tribute to your commitment and dedication.

Keep it up!
Keep us posted on your progress either way, it gives us things to talk about!

Has anyone compiled a complete list of changes in TGM from the various editions? It would be interesting to see..

Lynn Blake has had then on a thread for almost a year. But the laws of motion have not changed much :)

Lag,

When did you play? What tour? I had a couple of lessons w/Mac and actually got a Nationwide card ..your post are great…

you still play professionally RT?

I played from 1987 through 1993, so 7 years… the Canadian Tour,
Australian Tour, and some events on what was the Hogan Tour back then. I never really played mini tour events, but did play a few state opens and such..

I was on the road about 8 months of the year, so I would use my time off for swing changes, that sort of thing… I was doing a lot of swing work back then..

I don’t think I was ever in love with the suitcase lifestyle, but I did enjoy a few of the cities a lot… Vancouver, Montreal, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, and Perth were always places I liked to be or a least some of my favorites. PEI and Victoria.. also.. Some great courses in Toronto too.

Yes..not full time..I missed by 1 getting back to the finals of PGA Tour Qualifying Tournament in ‘04 and the gained my Canadian Tour card that year. I agree with lag..Victoria and Vancouver are the best stops on that tour. The Nationwide has some great stops too. It was awesome…I may come out again for the fall classic(aka Qschool) in ‘09. I played for my living for 12 years, but off the road for the past 5 or so. Not much for traveling anymore!! I play 5-8 events when I can and will move that up to a few more if I make a run in the fall. I can still bring it !!

I worked with Mike Bender in Orlando years back and find myself migrating back to some of his stuff and s&t. Plummer I know fairly well and their stuff is right on..most people are afraid of information that actually may help them!! The physics are all TGM based.

Would like to hear Lag’s take and input. Enjoy his take. I looked at his sequence..pretty good stuff..s&t would want a little more pelvic thrust ..get the tail bone tucked more under the hips post impact..may control the rate of closer..I liked the rest..

I really am no expert on S and T…

I am not impressed by a technique until I can see someone flush a thin blade style 1 iron off the deck and be able to shape it either way with decent trajectory repeatably…

that’s the acid test of a great golf swing.

If I can see that, I’m all ears…

I hit off the right foot, not the left..
I like to have a nice clear open path to bring my power package down to P3, so keeping my weight over the right foot as long as possible is the old school way, and I feel it’s still the best way. It takes a pair of strong, fast hands, and a quick post impact pivot.

rt1,

Can you educate us here on S and T and the basics of it, and how it works?

I like to keep an open mind always, but the idea of anything suggesting a reverse weight shift, and hitting the ball off the left leg sounds like a good way to hit wedge shots or short irons only..
Sounds upright and steep in tendency..

Lag, I like your stuff and description. Here’s some basic info on s&t. The upper center (sternum basically) lower center( beltbuckle basically) stay on top of each other throughout the swing, handpath is more around(placing left arm on shoulder plane) resulting in shoulder tilting at a 90 degree angle to spine. As a result of keeping the centers stacked, shoulders will turn on a more perfect, if not perfect circle, as opposed to an oval shape of traditional teaching. Whether they know or not, this is what the shoulders will do if you move the upper center. Rotating a ball attached to a chain and making a tight circular rotation with the wrist results in the ball spinning on a tight orbit is a good example. Any fluctuation of the axis(wrist in this example) result in the ball losing velocity as it needs to shift planes. Not as tight rotation. If you equate this to the golf swing it requires more timing. You only reverse pivot (in any swing for that matter) when the low center moves laterally and inverts the second axis(or tilt) at p3.5.
Keeping the weight more centered or even more left sided feel will keep the low point(bottom of arc) of the swing from moving back and needing to move up on the forward swing. Establising more consistent compression is the goal. The upper center will never back up on the back or forward swing, as you describe in your swing. If the weight moves into the right foot it is physically impossible not to “reverse pivot” unless you move the upper center back. In essence you are going to be ball beating to time that move ..especially if you put pressure or adreneline on the swing. Simple said ..it requires more timing. the pelvic thrust from p6- allows a 18-20 degree increase of the second tilt (moving the tailbone forward without moving the upper center back ) which shallows the shaft , moving the package, maintaining the flying wedge post impact which together deliver maximum compression.
This is just a brief description of the move. If you research the best ball strikers, you will notice a straightening of the right leg, which we prescribe. Steeper shoulder turn, etc. Measuring the angles will prove this. I can assure you also… I can rip a 1 iron of a cart path with a butter knife if you want me to!! Check Baddeley, Weir, Waite, Axley, Wi, Dean Wilson, and others and you will see what I am describing.
I like your insight Lag and others and look forward to hearing back.
Keep stripping it !!

Check what Homer says about the ‘endless belt affect’ GOOD stuff

Lag,

Of course maintaining pressure points are critical points of the equation. I encourage you to check this link and video.

http://vimeo.com/v1golf

Is Baddeley considered the model S and T right now?

A while back I saw that a couple of guys working with Andy Plummer & Mike Bennett said that they regard Charlie Wi as being “closest” to the basic S&T model/pattern.

Cheers,

Arnie

Season ending Stats 2008

Famous Stack and Tilters

Baddeley:

driving accuracy 150th
greens in regulation 166th
total driving 144th

Mike Wier

accuracy 106th
greens in regulation 106th
total driving 148

Now let me understand this…
people are saying this is the greatest swing theory to come along in years?

Here are two of the biggest poster children of this movement?

I avoid comparing the modern swings to those of the past, because the equipment is completely different, and golf courses play much shorter now that they used to. Yes I said that right SHORTER!!

I really expected to see S and T right at the top of the ball striking stats.. with all the craze and publicity…

These are pros that have all day to grind balls and work on this stuff
and these are the results?

Really?

Why of all the teachers working with tour pros, have these two guys gotten so much press the past few years? Ostensibly, because right after a few pros switched to their s/t model, they won a tour event, I think a couple even won their first time. Did they win because of much improved ballstriking, or was there putting and short game really on that week?

But – don’t ever forgot the power of Golf Digest to promote a new swing theory. If their editor had gotten worse after his now famous on the Web lesson from them, you would most likely never have heard of s/t.

Aaron works with Andy Plummer…his tilts and angles are on the money. Weir has made improtant changes as well and loves it. I spent some time with them on the range at an event a while back w/Andy.

Dean Wilson’s lines are as good as any s&t’er and if he putts it well he will win again this year.

Lag, next time you look at the leaderboard, notice the s&t guys are fairly consistent to the top..more so than any other teacher. Last week there were 4 in the top 14. there are over twenty five guys migrating to the material..it is TGM stuff anyway..

The last thing Mac O’Grady told me as he grabbed my putter was”if you can’t use this..this information is useless!” No One hit it any better than Mac and he only won once. Their is a lot that has to happen for anyone other than Tiger to win a PGA Tour or any other Tour event. You have to take it from the other player..the best ball striker on Tour is not Tiger, but he is without a doubt the best player. Andy could have done the same thing for him that Hank did. Only he would drive it better!!

When was that?

wait, wait, wait,

let’s not get off course here…

If we are talking about winning tour events, we need to talk about the other end of golf’s biathalon… PUTTING..

We are talking the golf swing here, not chipping and putting…

let’s not confuse things here..

let’s talk about stats, and I want to see that stack and tilt is hitting more fairways and greens and dominating the contemporary ball striking scene…

But if we look at Bad’s and Weir we have two guys that as far as ball striking, they would be losing their cards, or close to it.

In the old days of the PGA Tour, it was top 60 on the money list, and I can assure you that Hogan and Snead would be right at the top of those stats… and Jack and Trevino had great stats, and I’m sure in their prime, both Knudson and Moe would have been right at the top of GIR and Driving stats.. PGA or Canadian Tour …etc..

Modern golf is not a ball strikers dominated game anymore.. not even close.

Let’s look at Tiger.. the greatest ever right?

last 3 years driving accuracy

169th
152nd
139th

greens hit in regulation?

1
1
1

what does that tell us?

a lot….

what does it mean to be a straight driver of the golf ball?
about zero…

why?

For one, PGA tour courses have less trees than they used to.
It’s mounds and bumps. Short irons out of rough with square grooves, and if there are trees, it’s easier to go up and over with a short iron than a long iron. There is no up and over with a 3 iron.

This is what I am faced with when I go out to play… it’s a totally different game… and you have to hit driver here to get to the top of the hill to have a view of the green or else you are hitting off an uphill lie to a postage stamp green with a left to right wind blowing. This is classic risk and reward stuff that the great architects of the past figured into course design. Golfer’s used to have to hit it straight… yes, believe it or not, they actually had to learn to split tight fairways all day long to win.

If Tiger had to go out and play courses where you actually had to hit it straight, he might have a different looking golf swing with the driver.

I see over acceleration, loss of shaft flex, and very poor driving accuracy stats that are consistent with such observations.

Am I crazy? maybe..

RT,

we are talking ball striking… NOT PUTTING

LEADER BOARDS = PUTTING!!!!

NOT BALL STRIKING!!!!

Please, show me the ball striking stats of “stack and tilt” before we get into the validity of the method..

it’s far from impressive… really far…

Lag,

All Weir did last year was in 26 starts, 2 seconds, 8 top tens,13 top 25’s, 14th $ list. He has a 2nd and 3rd in 3 starts this year. Not bad for not winning.

Players will not even consider switching if the instructor hasn’t produced winning players. Even when they do the player may take the information to different degrees than another who works on the same stuff.

No, Lag – not crazy, you are 100% correct on this issue. The only way to accurately way to judge if s/t has truly helped the tour pros who are embracing it, is to compare their ballstriking stats BEFORE they switched to s/t, with their current stats. It may well be that they have all improved to some extent, as it seems they are all claiming. Even if this is true, two things must be considered. One – the placebo effect is extremely powerful. If you believe s/t is going to help, that very belief will allow you to swing better with less interference from conscious mind worry or doubt.

Two – as I have said in my other s/t posts, it may be that the improvement that happened was primarily or even totally due to better balance from LESS lateral shift than in their old swing. I realize this is just one part of the s/t model, but maybe that is the ONLY thing that really matters and truly helps anyone who uses the pattern, pro or amateur. If that is the case, why not just call it what it is – better balance from less lateral sway, therefore much better Low Point control. But would something so simple and clear draw so much golf media buzz? I doubt it!

Who do you like of current players? I have played with Chad Campbell ..solid .

Weir 2009 stats..4 in the top ten

Rank Additional Stats
Approaches from > 200 yards 45’ 5” 26th – –
Scrambling from > 30 yards 60.00% 9th – –
GIR Percentage – 100-125 yards 81.82% 58th 125 yards – 9 –
GIR Percentage – 75-100 yards 70.00% 146th 100 yards – 7 –
GIR Percentage – < 75 yards 92.86% 77th yards – 13 –
GIR Percentage – 200+ yards 25.00% 177th + yards – 2 –
GIR Percentage – 175-200 yards 80.00% 1st -200 yards – 12 –
GIR Percentage – 150-175 yards 52.94% 154th -175 yards – 9 –
GIR Percentage – 125-150 yards 78.57% 26th -150 yards – 11 –
GIR Percentage – < 125 yards 82.86% 114th 5 yards – 29 –
GIR Percentage – < 100 yards 83.33% 141st 0 yards – 20 –
Approaches from 100-125 yards 20’ 7” 100th 125 yards – 164.417 –
Approaches from 75-100 yards 14’ 11” 55th 00 yards – 104.417 –
Approaches from 175-200 yards 26’ 4” 7th 200 yards – 289.250 –
Approaches from 150-175 yards 32’ 4” 158th 175 yards – 452.833 –
Approaches from 125-150 yards 13’ 8” 4th 150 yards – 150.333 –
Approaches from 50-125 yards 17’ 11” 61st 25 yards – 268.833 –
Approaches from 200-225 yards 47’ 5” 122nd 225 yards – 284,583 –
Approaches from 225-250 yards 47’ 7” 57th 250 yards – 285,417 –
Approaches from > 275 yards 64’ 0” 17th yards – 64,000 –
Approaches from 250-275 yards 1’ 9” 1st 275 yards – 1,750

Yeah,the stats don’t look that great huh?

But stats don’t tell the whole story.Some players are more aggressive and like to attack courses so their stats may not look that great.

Instead of aiming for the middle of the fairway,they aim for a particular side to get a better angle into the green.Instead of aiming at the middle of the green,they shoot at the flags.

But I agree,the stats should look better as S&T is supposed to aid consistent contact.

rt,

Weir hits it no better than I do, believe me..
I played against him.. nothing unusual..

You’re talking about how great they are on and around the greens, and their bank accounts… Their ball striking stats alone would send them back to mini tours in Florida.

When I played in Canada, and Moe would come out of the parking lot with a set of old blades and persimmons, walk to the range and start hitting balls, people would just stop what they were doing.. and watch the master… the same with Hogan, it was awe inspiring… amazing..

I saw Moe, not Hogan in person, but I have heard that Hogan was even better than Moe, and the same thing, there were that good, good enough to make peoples jaws drop, even tour pros… we all would watch.. Why? It was that good.. it really was..

So, am I going to spend my time studying the greats? or guys that probably don’t even hit is as good as I do?

Look at Weirs’ stats? not even good by todays standards of apples to apples..

can he chip and putt?

I didn’t look… but I bet both Bads and Weir are much better in their short game stats than their long game stats.. anyone care to do the research feel free… and post it..

Does stack and tilt improve your short game and putting?

Lag, check TA3 (tommy armour) stats. His ball striking is exceptional is a long time s&t’er.

I also saw Moe hit it in the early 90’s. He was hitting Damon Green’s clubs( Zach Johnson’s) current caddy . It was incredible. No one on tour hits it like that. Unfair comparison !!

Tommy Armour has always been a good striker.. I played with him back in the 80’s… always a pure CF swinger like Couples and VJ.

Totally different thing that what I am seeing with S and T..

Did he change? He was very much along the lines of what I like to see, very shallow entry into P3, like Trevino.. very straight.

His swing looks nothing like Weir’s or Bads’ to me…

maybe he’s changed…

but he was really good before, and really flat..

Yes it does….not sure what all the fuss is about when it is all golf machine based golf!! Andy was one of Mac’s guys for years!! I have played against Weir as wel..your right soso ball striker..but will bore you to death with mistake free golf.

When I had my card other professionals would ask me why my ball sounded different than most..not all but most. I was considered a upper level ball striker by my peers, but needed to brush it better. I will ball strike it against anyone. Period.

I know an old timer who shagged for Hogan and he told me Hogan was the best. Hit the shag bag on the fly one session 3 times with the driver..All about 260 he said. He said he backed you up b hitting it over you..not by waving you back!! He has some great stories.

Like I said ..different players take it to different degrees..like any good player

Regarding TA3. He has done more recently than back in the 80’s

Mr Lag

S and T is one of Mac’s patterns and ball flights can be varied from a number of things. Such as changing the centers around / elbow recock/wrist recock
In all Mac’s patterns an integral part is the Tailbone release which sends the lower cog forward without any hang back of the upper spine to create the 2nd Tilt.
When done properly the belt buckle will shift up and over the left ankle . Just a sidenote it seems you are sadly lacking in this department which surprises me since you learnt from Mac.
You study great ballstrikers . Well so do many others . take some time and you will see Hogan has the best tailbone release ever

i agree course design plays to the longest hitters. I averaged 295 and was upper of middle but unreal how long guys like Bo Van Pelt..(there is a great ball striker who is under rated) and Robert Garrigus are among others.

Tiger is not the best ball striker, but if he played the course in your picture he would hit his 2 iron past your Sunday drive !! Maybe not the best. The TOUR needs smaller greens, more movement of the hole design(doglegs etc) and deeper rough to bring out the best ball strikers. Look at what wins Colonial every year. And is is under 7,000 yds.

Darth,

Well stated..you are educated I see. Your are right on with the tailbone tucking. Most don’t understand the sequence or have never felt it. I have 100’s of photos to back it up.

Well done

Lag,

I almost forgot about a great ball striker he is has worked with Mac, but with s&t as well. His ball striking is legendary. Steve Elkington.

Darth,

Well stated..you are educated I see. Your are right on with the tailbone tucking. Most don't understand the sequence or have never felt it. I have 100's of photos to back it up.

Well done

Easy to see for the educated and its a massive piece in the puzzle of golf and easy on the back/hips. It’s the correct way to get the extra thrust or second firing of the hips/torso

darth,

What makes you so sure you need a big second axis tilt? Just because Mac says so?

What if you just start there instead? Why can’t that work?

explain?

I was exposed to Mac’s stuff early on, and I think there’s a lot of great stuff there, I really admire Mac. But I don’t agree that you have to move into a big second axis tilt, not do I agree that Mac is any kind of a model for minimizing swing plane shifting… it’s works for him, but it’s difficult for others to get that to work consistently.. Even Hale Irwin, who is very upright, has very little shifting going on.

Mr Lag

S and T is one of Mac's patterns and ball flights can be varied from a number of things. Such as changing the centers around / elbow recock/wrist recock
In all Mac's patterns an integral part is the Tailbone release which sends the lower cog forward without any hang back of the upper spine to create the 2nd Tilt.
When done properly the belt buckle will shift up and over the left ankle . Just a sidenote it seems you are sadly lacking in this department which surprises me since you learnt from Mac.
You study great ballstrikers . Well so do many others . take some time and you will see Hogan has the best tailbone release ever

The force is strong with this one!

(sorry, couldn’t resist!! :P)

darth,

What makes you so sure you need a big second axis tilt? Just because Mac says so?

What if you just start there instead? Why can't that work?

explain?

I was exposed to Mac's stuff early on, and I think there's a lot of great stuff there, I really admire Mac. But I don't agree that you have to move into a big second axis tilt, not do I agree that Mac is any kind of a model for minimizing swing plane shifting… it's works for him, but it's difficult for others to get that to work consistently.. Even Hale Irwin, who is very upright, has very little shifting going on.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

The general principle is to move the cogs in sequence just like Hogan/Snead and maintain/increase waist bend to get a rotated shoulder downstroke which is evident in Hogan/Snead. the tailbone release for 2nd tilt does NOT give a big 2nd tilt only for those who move the upper center back at the same time

Elk and I came out of the same All American Class of 85. I’m really proud of the guys from that era and what they have accomplished in the game. Davis, Verplank, Waldorf, Watts, T Hamilton, Billy Ray, Estes, Woody Austin… these guys came out of the end of the persimmon age, it was really a different game back then… I think they all would have done much better had the ruling bodies of the game limited the ball and the driver and the square grooves..

It just let so many other guys into the game that were at very best mediocre ball strikers… it’s put so much more emphasis in putting than before..

I just finished reading Snead’s book and be was bragging why he was the best in the world because of his fine putting stats…. 33 putts per round..!!!

That used to be good! Hard to believe, but in the old days, you had to just pepper the flag all week to make birdies.. the greens were often like putting across a waffle iron.. nobody made everything..
The best putters always made more putts, but not like they do now.
Nothing like what they do now..

Lag, If you start with too much 2nd tilt at p1 (more than 5 degrees)you will have too much second tilt at p7 if you attempt to move at the ball with the pelvic thrust.Even non s&t guys do this to different degrees.

You will drag your butt on the grass as we say. Tremendous compression leak. Try it .as I mentioned before from your pix..

Lag,

I too played persimmon.. I played against all those guys in college. I was in the same conference as Elk. Verplank, etc.
Hamilton has the jug but should not be in the same breath as Elk. He’ll be back at Q-school after his 5 years is up. Or retire a rich man. I would like to have his pocket book !!

Woody and I played a lot in Orlando in the late 80’s early 90’s and he is a good striker..I enjoyed dueling with him in those days. Never was intimidated by anyone’s ball striking..confident in my own!!!

Hogan and Snead had different lower body action, knees and hips, and Moe too, all very effective…

Let’s not get lost in terminology here..

How can you move your tail bone without moving your belt buckle?

Anything hip, tail bone, belt buckle is affected by knee movements
on one end of the towel, and torso rotation on the other..

You have opposing directional forces from the feet up.. and ground pressures going on…

This is effect, observation stuff, not root cause of movement..

Mac loves to lose people in translation… let’s not do that here..

Darth,

Again ,,well stated. Andy and I discussed this topic at length.

rt,

then you and I must have crossed paths…

BP really needs to step in here and explain Mac’s terminology because he has his own protocol for explaining things much like TGM has it’s terms.. I know BP was in Mac’s official inner circle for quite some time.

I am not up on Mac’s latest MORAD lingo, and I see little of Mac’s move in Bad’s or Weir’s swing..

RT, were did you play college at? Texas?

Lag,

I am sure we have..

about the belt buckle, tailbone..you move the belt buckle(an example) over the left ankle as the tailbone pushes up. Much like a feel of swiveling the hips up. Snead right leg was straight much like we prescribe. Most teachers teach keep the flex..what a joke. Try to turn your shoulders on plane and keep your right knee flexed.

Lag,
If you were in Orlando in the late 80-early 90’s we probably played against each other.

Lag,

for two years

Let’s not forget..Mike Bender’( Zach’s Johnson’s coach) was a MORAD guy for a long time and Zach’s swing is not on the spot with MORAD.

Lag..I keep telling you there are different degrees people will change..you should understand this being a player. You haven’t been out of the loop that long have you? !!

How about away for 15 years?

I played full time for 7 years… 87 through 93, and retired for a variety of reasons.. not any one thing, but I did not enjoy the direction golf was taking on the PGA Tour here at home… I never liked the Pete Dye style TPC stadium courses, nor did I like the inevitable move into space age golf gear.
Todd Hamilton in fact was my moment of seeing into the future back in 1990 when he came back from Japan with some kind of giant super long, super light driver that he was now hitting 40 yards farther. I knew right then that I would soon have to be hitting that thing too once word got around.. it did, and it just got worse..

I stayed with persimmon and was one of the last guys to win on the Canadian Tour with one.

I preferred the Australian Tour back then because I got to compete on much better golf courses in my opinion than in the US. The money was not great, but that was never my motivation for playing golf… if it was I would have accepted an invitation to play on the exclusive Japan Tour, and I turned down a very lucrative offer, because I wasn’t interested in living in Japan at the time. I turned pro so I could play golf 24/7 on courses that I enjoyed. I made enough, and retired with full exemptions.. it was not money related at all.

I started playing golf again last May because I found a golf course near my home that is a spectacular ball strikers test if you play the older gear… so here I am… I’ve played only one pro event… last Nov, and I won it…. by 7…

But really, I’m not that interested in competition, the new game to me seems silly.. I really have no interest in hitting the ball 300 yards, and having to carry 5 wedges.. or having to average 27 putts a round on pool table quality greens… I’d rather putt across a waffle iron. I like looking down at a finely crafted piece of wood, not a space age shovel. I like courses where you have to hit it not just straight, but choose which side of the fairway to go down. I like small greens with a natural contouring, not elephant burial grounds.
I like sloping fairways, with lots of combinations of sidehill and downhill, uphill lies.

Shot makers golf, ball strikers stuff.. working on my putting 4 hours a day is just not that interesting to me.. I’m not a bad putter, but not good enough, often enough.

Lag – Tailbone thrust is a tough concept to explain in words without causing confusion in the mind of the reader. We teach it in our golf schools as part of our model, and you should see the looks of “you gotta be f

---

kidding me” we get from average golfers.

Any golfer who gets to his Finish looking like a tour pro with the same amount of so-called “spine angle” as at address or close to it, is doing the tailbone release to some extent.

Here is a hint. You should “stand up” out of your forward spine angle from it’s source in your hip socket during Release, while simultaneously doing three other moves: tilt to the right from lower and mid spine region, rotate the pelvic girdle to your left, ie left hip straight back “behind you”, and rotate the torso/shoulder girdle 90 degrees to the spine.

For every degree that you “stand up” out of your hip socket sourced spine angle, you bend to the right from the spine tilt by one degree – simultaneously. This is one of the really Big Illusions in the golf swing and once you grasp the concept, it becomes much, much easier to maintain your spine angle (although the source of the angle is changing dynamically) during Release, and of course that gives you control over many other important angles, including shaft plane angle, angle of attack and Low Point.

At your Finish, you can have the same forward “spine” or torso angle to the ground as at address, but the source is now mainly the right tilt from the lower spine, and some from mid-spine as well.

The trick is learning how to time/coordinate those four motions so that you don’t actually “stand up” in reality and come out of the shot. You need to do all four simultaneously, kind of like rubbing your tummy and patting your head and tapping your foot and making a circle with one arm….takes some practice to get it down for average golfers. NOT optional procedure though, a Law of the Golf Swing for sure. No matter what swing Style you are using. Although some tour pros do it really well, others not so well – and those guys have to compensate some place else in their swing for the fact that they really are “standing up” to some degree, usual compensation is some form of earlier than ideal release to make the clubshaft “longer” in effect.

I’ll be playing in The San Francisco Persimmon Open April 24-26th. Would love to have you come out and play… it will be a fun time, including a bagpipe player, howling into the San Francisco Bay… I hope Mac comes up to play in this one. Someone e mailed me the other day and said he might be interested.

I’d love to see him win it…

BP,

Mac makes it sound pretty complicated…

How can the tail bone move by itself? Thust? I’m lost on this…

Maybe Hogan should have added a 6th lesson to his book calling it…
The third part of the swing.

Doesn’t sound like a component variation in TGM either. I have always thought Homer missed a component regarding ground pressures.

This sounds like another one…

I have no idea how to move my hips independent of my leg action, or torso rotation..

It sounds like one of the “FLW” things to me.. chicken or the egg?
meaning, forcing a FLW makes zero sense to me.. it happens because acceleration creates it..

I’m all ears…

BP,

Is all that just a roundabout way of doing the ‘keep the tush on the line’?

Lag – trust me, you are already doing this move in your swing. I have never seen a good ballstriker who did not have it, although most have no idea that they are doing it. It’s just going from flexion into extension with the pelvic girdle at same time as you rotate the pelvic girdle in a circle to your left, ie “firing the hips”. And doing the right spine tilt and torso rotation. As I warned, it sounds ridiculously complicated when explained in words and hard to grasp.

If you did not do the tailbone thrust, you would still be in your address forward spine angle at the Finish – rom your hip socket. Way bent over from your hips. You have zero hip socket forward bend at the Finish but likely 25-40 degrees of hip socket forward bend at address. So – empirically it’s easy to prove that there is so-called tailbone thrust. You literally cannot see it happening in real time, even in slow motion, and from ANY angle of the camera or the viewer, including overhead. The right spine tilt disguises the standing up out of the hip socket move, as does the hip/pelvic girdle rotation to the left.

Not a TGM component for sure – Homer missed this really important piece of the puzzle.

Lag – give me a call on my cell phone, we need to catch up. I thought I brought your number with me to Oahu but I must have left it on the mainland. I am two hours earlier than you.

Dap – an unqualified “yes” to that. S/T and MORAD also use it a secondary power source, pushing down into the ground. In my teaching, it is more for keeping in balance along with good geometry so you can make more solid contact consistently. It’s a hugely important part of our swing model.

BP,

It would be interesting to hear your take on this move.

Maintaining the tushline is easy to say but for a lot of golfers who don’t do it,can be a nightmare to learn.

Dap – I agree 100%. Its a nightmare to learn for most average golfers for sure. Lots of reasons but the Spine Angle Illusion is the big one. Poor fitness, especially tight hamstrings, and hip rotators and lower back muscles is another. And of course the old standy, the Hit Impulse causing the early release, which effectively “lengthens” the clubshaft, so you MUST standup to not hit it really fat and likely injure your wrist or elbow. We deal with all three of these root causes in our programs.

Ok,

that made a lot more sense… bending of the waist back up as a power source,

I call it the 5th accumulator move, ripping the shaft back up the plane in a hitter’s protocol from P4, to a TGM shoulder plane in conjunction with the rotator cuff muscles pulling the club up to pre finish.

You have resistance on the club end with the shear weight of the club,
and on the other end somewhere in the pelvic area because the right foot is giving way at some point.. so it’s losing it ability to anchor the other end of the towel… gotcha..

makes sense..

Lots of lost in translation stuff going on.. TGM, MORAD, BALANCE POINT, HOGAN’S 5 LESSONS, ADVANCED BALL STRIKING, S and T…

Didn’t Dart say that everyone keeps discovering the golf swing and claiming they found a new secret?

I saw on Leno tonight about how a guy named Henry Ford along time ago invented a car that ran on ethanol… yes even before gasoline. Quite shocking…

Lag – trust me, you are already doing this move in your swing. I have never seen a good ballstriker who did not have it, although most have no idea that they are doing it. It's just going from flexion into extension with the pelvic girdle at same time as you rotate the pelvic girdle in a circle to your left, ie ’Äúfiring the hips”. And doing the right spine tilt and torso rotation. As I warned, it sounds ridiculously complicated when explained in words and hard to grasp.

If you did not do the tailbone thrust, you would still be in your address forward spine angle at the Finish – rom your hip socket. Way bent over from your hips. You have zero hip socket forward bend at the Finish but likely 25-40 degrees of hip socket forward bend at address. So – empirically it's easy to prove that there is so-called tailbone thrust. You literally cannot see it happening in real time, even in slow motion, and from ANY angle of the camera or the viewer, including overhead. The right spine tilt disguises the standing up out of the hip socket move, as does the hip/pelvic girdle rotation to the left.

Not a TGM component for sure – Homer missed this really important piece of the puzzle.

Lag – give me a call on my cell phone, we need to catch up. I thought I brought your number with me to Oahu but I must have left it on the mainland. I am two hours earlier than you.

I see a more arm/hands motion and not much dynamic pivot/tailbone action going on.. The complete opposite of Hogan/Mac O’grady

First time posting.

In a lesson with Gregg McHatton, he simplified the feel of this tailbone thrust by having me set up at address with his hand on the top of my head without a club and he would just tell me to try and stand up without moving his hand. Your natural instinct is to rotate the hips and extend the spine.

That sounds like Greg..

The feeling of “tall” at impact is consistent with good swinger intentions..

I really think Moe had a better version keeping the left arm and clubshaft in line from both front and DTL views at impact if your going after a true CF release. The equal-angular parallel plane shifting through impact is tough stuff to time and trust for most humans.

Greg does it nicely, I alway enjoyed watching him hit balls, it’s a real thing of beauty… It’s worth taking a lesson from him just to watch him do it.

I always like to watch the clubshaft when Gregg swings…It looks like he is swinging a rope.

I have worked on and off with Gregg since the early 80’s.

Whenever I got the urge to hit I would have to stop seeing him for a little while.

Float Loading and then dumping always feels out of control. I much prefer everything to feel firm and compact, but I must say I like the esthetics of pure swinging.

Lag,

what do you think about the ‘endless belt effect’ in TGM?

Look at Weirs' stats? not even good by todays standards of apples to apples..

can he chip and putt?

I didn't look… but I bet both Bads and Weir are much better in their short game stats than their long game stats.. anyone care to do the research feel free… and post it..

I did this research in the stack and tilt posting because I was of the exact same opinion…Weir and Badds tee to green game is definitely not the reason they are making cash at this game…..every now and then they have a half decent hitting week and still putt the eyes out of it like they do week in and week out and have a high finish.
Go look for it in ST forum in this section or I will try to re-insert it here to look at and see the results for yourself

Lag,
here’s what I was referring to about their putting stats etc….down the bottom somewhere

Sorry….I guess I have been doing it all wrong these past years. I have played on every major PGA tour in the world and still continue to do so. Hence the fact I have played with all those Stack/Tilt advertisement players, so I can honestly say I know what I am talking about and not just speaking out my rear end like you assume I am doing.
I joined this site recently because I thought it quite comical the way people ridicule Australia and the World's finest golfers on this site when the person doing the ridiculing can't bust eggs themselves. It's amazing all the people who throw stones yet would never be able themselves to reach a standard even close to playing on the PGA Tour

Somethings work for some people and if you like the stack and tilt…then that's great. However it is not a technique to be taught to someone who isn't at least at a professional or top amateur standard because it brings about all the bad faults amateur golfers have been trying to stop for years.
I don't know what standard ’ÄúRochie” is but he says he is spraying his driver and long irons all over the place…..too true. You can't hit a long shafted club with little loft from that position at the top of the swing that stack and tilt promotes. It's OK with shorter to mid irons because you can trap the ball and hit down and let the ball come up the face and get some type of loft on it……
Anyway whatever works mate……I just wonder when the people on that Stack Tilt commercial are not highly ranked in the world rankings…. Wi (120) Wilson (167) MacKenzie (210) Axley (343) Scherrer (525)..... and then you have Weir (24) who in 2008 came 109th in driving accuracy and 106th in greens in reg and Badds(41) who was 150th in driving accuracy and 169th in greens in reg…..The only reason they have success is because they both chip and putt the spots off the ball….In 2008 Weir was 26 in putts per GIR and 19th in putts per round… Badds was 5th in putts per GIR and 8th in putts per round… that;s why they make money not because they hit it great. They may have a few weeks a year when things all click together but they don't have much consistency striking it well week in and week out.
Those stats for those 2 top players are not a high recommendation for a method that goes against the physics of hitting a ball correctly.

Interesting take. ..I can assure you if you are letting the ball ride up your long irons as you suggest you can’t break an egg either.

It seems to me everytime any deviation from the norm comes along everyone becomes defensive. Have you ever noticed how the old timers, yes Lag, those who actually hit persimmon and blades elevated the right knee on the backswing and created a steep shoulder tilt? The left arm is across the chest, ala Hogan, M . Norman, etc. Maybe you should be more open minded about it and ask your mate Steve Elkington what he thinks about s/t.

rt1….I think you misunderstood the post, like everyone on this site seems to do
I have no hitting problems…never have , never will…have won PGA Tour events all around the world.
The above post has nothing to do with me….it was talking about other people and a re-hash to show the stats of Weir and Baddeley and how they are still very ordinary whatever method they use.
I have known Badds for years…I will post a swing seq of his from approx 8-9 years ago…when he could really hit it well…. you tell me what position is better….his stack and tilt all over the ball on the backswing or the swing below….. not hard to work out. When he won his 2 Aus Opens he putted well…yes….but he flushed it also.
He got sidetracked into hanging around superstars and dumped Dale Lynch for Leadbetter and has never been the ballstriker he once was..

Shomethamoney,

Couldn’t agree more… golf’s a putters game now, more than ever..

I don’t hit balls anymore, and don’t practice ever… I like to play, and I feel the same about putting… if your technique is good, I don’t think you need to practice much if ever. Same with putting.

I think the best way to find out how good you are is to not play.
It really tells the truth… take time off, can you get it done? How do you putt? Can you roll it good without spending 6 hours putting on the carpet inside your Peltz track?

Grinding enough balls can make a lot of suspect swings work reasonably well. Same with putting.

Maybe stack and tilt is a way to simplify the swing so you can just get it around ok with the new gear, good enough, so that you can spend more time on the short game. It’s certainly unproven as the path to masterful ball striking. I’ll need to see some top 5 “end of season” GIR stats and total driving stats before I could take it seriously as a viable path to modern contemporary ball striking excellence. Even then I would doubt it’s credibility to produce well with vintage gear.

Looks ok for shorter irons.. I guess with the new gear it can almost pass with the hybrids and all.

There’s better ways to strike a golf ball.. history has shown us this when we look at great ball strikers. I’d rather teach a Tom Kite move actually. I like Kite’s swing. I like swings that hit the ball straight, especially with the driver.

Lag
Exactly….S&T is a swing for the wedges and maybe down to a 7 iron. And that’s how all good players basically swing anyhow with those clubs….their stance is narrower, so they are set more on top of the ball…. the shaft is shorter so they are less lateral in their movement in either direction…. and they descend a bit more vertical into the ball to get trajectory and spin
Once you get that type of swing going with a longer club….have fun looking for your ball
I have played with all these guys a bunch of times and let me tell you if they couldn’t chip and putt they would be really struggling and probably selling hot dogs on a street corner somewhere… not that severe. but put it this way I have played with all the great players and I have only played with a handful who I walked away thinking Wow… he can definitely hit it better than I can
‘Alas golf is all about score and not hitting….so there are many ways to succeed and that’s what people need to remember… it’s not the prettiest, the best hitter, or whatever…it’s the lowest score…. no matter how you can do it….and many people forget that, including me. Wish I could have owned up to that thought much earlier

Show me

Nice sequence from V1 software. I have that as well. Talked to Badd at an event last year and he loves the stuff.

I to have played all over the world ..for 12 years. I enjoy the swing debates..
Check this clip..update your software !!

http://www.vimeo.com/1932607

Show me..

your initials must be W.A. He is the only guy I know on the Tour that would say a player would be selling hot dogs if he could not putt!! Sounds like a bitter FORMER Tour player. Lighten up !!

Nice work on the video…..excellent quality

Hold the advance button and you can stop the sequence. Looks tight..Andy told me the first thing they did post Lead was lower the left arm. Must more centered as well.

Wrong….just using an expression to show the fine line of swinging well…hitting well…and scoring well… one moment you are winning a million$$ and next minute you could be selling hot dogs….. all depends on the individual , the mindset, the people you surround yourself with and a little bit of fate as to the outcome

Guys, for us mere golfing mortals who can only grasp the fundamentals of S&T (centre over the ball, weight predominently left side, some sort of tilt on the backswing??) how does it show itself in the Bads vid? His swing looks pretty damn good and conventional in a modern sense to my untrained eye.

I really like Badds old swing 1999/2000…..compared to this one.
On this one you posted:
He gets the club (3 wood ??) a little steep into impact as a result of this stack/tilt at the top and takes a fairly sharp divot for a tee shot with a wood…in my opinion.
He looks like he releases the club quite vertical in the follow thru also on this swing because he is too much on top of the ball and has nowhere to release the club but upwards
That’s what I see….I just feel if he could ever backtrack 10 years and stick to what he had then…..he would be twice the player he is today because he would eliminate half his bad shots and also hit more good ones and of course he is a putting machine day in day out

Compare Tigers position at the top…...left shoulder and head move back over the right hip/right leg….moving his top half laterally around a solid right side to wind his body up and load his power and club in the right position
badds…..right knee supports ;little…his weight and especially the upper body stays towards the left, his head and shoulder don’t really get behind the ball at all on the backswing

Gotcha. “Stay behind the ball” is one of my coach’s mantras. I didn’t pick the divot on 1st view and is a telling sign that he’s a little steep unless it is a 20 degree hybrid which he’s trying to hit like a 4-iron.

I’ve never been interested in mediocrity… why? life is too short..

From what I have learned here about S and T, it seems like trying
to shoot for something less than ideal..

Very few players in my career really blew me away with their ball striking.

When they did, I watched, I learned, and listened…

During my era of players I competed against, here are the first guys that come to mind when I think of pure strikers..

Moe was the most impressive. People would gather around and watch.. it was that good.

Peter Senior in the late 80’s was just awesome. Great shot maker, still is I would imagine.

Greg Norman, just awesome in the late 80’s early 1990’s when I played against him.. what can you say? jaw dropping stuff.

Ian Woosnam, just awesome pressure. Same era, great persimmon player, remember hearing him crushing the persimmon at Royal Sydney at the A Open.

Cory Pavin, not long, but I have never seen a player work the ball with such shape tee to green and methodically pick a course apart with finesse and perfect ball control when guys would be driving by him 40 yards. He would still win.

Billy Ray Brown, I really think, had he not been injured early in his career, he had a great swing and could just pure it a lot like Greg Norman. It was great stuff to see, a very fine ball striker.

Sam Randolph. not a guy many people remember now, but if you were around in the 1980’s Sam played a low ball game much like Peter Thomson, and he was very long with a true power fade, low and with great control, and he won just about everything in collegiate golf, and amateur, and won on the PGA Tour. The modern gear did him no good. Take out a ball striker, put in a putting wizard.

Bobby Clampett. In the earlier days of TGM, he was absolutely pure… Bobby’s the reason people are still talking about TGM. He showed that pure CF action swinging was a viable way to strike it at a world class level. Never really seen it again since though.. we all tried to do it, no one could do it like Bobby. When he got the first bitter taste of it coming apart, the helpless feeling that pure CF swinging can leave you with…. when the hinges freeze up or the pivot decides to start over accelerating, he knew what the rest of us were going through… he didn’t like it one bit, and went in search of more reliable pastures. Understood, but it was beautiful to watch when he was doing it.

Mac, when he was healthy before back problems, Mac had that kind of ball striking charisma. People would stop and stare. Great stuff, great athlete. He created a secret vibe thing that maybe Hogan put out there that he knows something others don’t. It really would have been interesting to see how Mac could have done with a great putter in his hands. I think it’s amazing he won twice on tour not being able to putt really at all.. just horrible on the greens.. it would make you cringe. He’d hit 17 greens and shoot 73.

One of the reasons I don’t talk a lot about Tiger, is that he was just a kid when I was playing, even though I think it’s fun being written up with him on the same page of Golf World Mag in 1991.

I find Tiger’s driving frustrating.. the number one player in the world being 160th in fairway accuracy just tells me something is really wrong… whether it’s with him or the way the PGA Tour has golf courses set up these days. How good would Tiger be if he drove it like Norman used to? I think he would win every event every time. I’m really shocked he hasn’t been able to clean it up.

I agree with Peter Thomson, he’s the greatest putter ever by far.

Excuse my trip down memory lane tonight, but getting back to S and T, I think about those guys I named above, and I don’t think S and T is anywhere near producing those kind of ball strikers.

I read somewhere recently that in 07 Tiger had 935 putts in Tour events of five feet or less in length and made every single one of them…amazing stat! Especially considering the fact that a lot of those were from 3-5 foot range on super fast greens like at US Open and Masters, pin placements with severe breaks.

No question he is the best putter in the history of golf.
Lag – I like Tom Kite’s current swing a ton as well. Watched him on the range at Turtle Bay last year and he never missed a shot in over an hour of practice. Pure as pure can be, keeps the club in front of him the whole time, zero Hit Impulse, shoulders, hands and clubhead moving same RPM speed.

Watched Michelle and Angela Stanford at Turtle Bay on Saturday warming up for their final round match. Michelle missed two 3 woods badly, one driver big push slice and two fat 6 irons. Angela was striping it right next to her and never missed a shot. She has a really good swing – great model for average male golfers to emulate.

Badds was a horrible driver of the golf ball when he was with Lead..not sure before that. It could be mental as well. He aslo has worked on not letting his left hip back up through impact, which when linear motion is minimized the club will steepen

Ask him ..

Showme,

This is exactly why Tiger hits it all over the map!!!!!!!! You described his swing and hit it on the money(no pun intended)

Hank lowered and tried to get him to rotate the left forearm, which is classic Hank..Furthermore, it obviously did not take pressure of Tiger’s left knee as they expected this change to accomplish. You did know Hank had the yips with his driver for years!! A monkey could have help Tiger and he would have still won tournaments. Rock and block..that is what Tiger is doing on your photo !!

Lag,

Your’re not that old ..44..to be considered from another era…Guys were bombing it in college..remember John Slaughter?? You just feel it more now because the hype is in the long ball. Jack was a bomber in his day and now complains guys hit it too far!!?? He did the same thing to players in his prime. Plus the average Tour player is bigger, stronger than twenty years ago. Equate it to the NBA. 6’2” was a huge point gaurd in the 60-70’s..now it is considered small. One thing for sure they did not raise the goal because of this..like they have ruined a lot of courses by lengthening them (Augusta comes to mind) Now that really plays in to the longballers even more.

I moved forward with technology and technique to keep up with everyone while in my 40’s out of neccessity. That put us all on an equal playing ground. Then I can ball strike ‘em to death from there. I can appreciate the persimmon, etc, I remember saying I would never change..but my last two years I was 15 -25 yards farther..and that is from stats while on Tour..not from the range.

Bye the way, you think Sammy was that good?? He won but I bet you and I hit it just as crisp..even in his prime. I played with him at q-school several times and was soso..

I may be wrong but I thought Mac won only once?

Good takes as usual Lag..keep it going.
Maybe we can play sometime..I don’t get to CA much anymore. Last time was in ‘04 for q-school.

Showme,

This is exactly why Tiger hits it all over the map!!!!!!!! You described his swing and hit it on the money(no pun intended)

Hank lowered and tried to get him to rotate the left forearm, which is classic Hank..Furthermore, it obviously did not take pressure of Tiger's left knee as they expected this change to accomplish. You did know Hank had the yips with his driver for years!! A monkey could have help Tiger and he would have still won tournaments. Rock and block..that is what Tiger is doing on your photo !!

I am not going to argue about it all…..however Tiger is number 1 in greens in regulation….so he doesn’t exactly hit it all over the map to be able to end up high in that stat. Yes he does hit it wide at times from the tee but not as often as people imagine. His driving % numbers are a little down the list because he gets aggressive on some holes and cuts corners or tries to hit it past the trouble with out worrying if it is in the fairway or not. However he could stand there and hit fairways all day long if he had to….but the modern courses don’t often throw that at you these days. just bombs away and not worry about trees or trouble..
Every flusher of the ball in every era has swung the club by bracing the right leg and turning the torso back and behind the ball building up power like a corkscrew and then unleashing that power into the downswing by initiating with the hips and dropping the club down to create lag and more power and never letting their body to get too far ahead of the ball at impact.
Norman was awesome at hitting the ball…...but if he ever went too lateral on his downswing and got his upper body high and past the ball at impact he was screwed and that’s where all his bad blocks came from (84usopen,86masters for eg).....so I for one just don’t see what setting up with weight on the left and keeping it towards the left will do to help a golfer play better
You don’t throw a ball with your weight on the left…..you don’t hit a tennis shot by keeping your weight to the left…..you don’t kick a ball by keeping your weight on the left
You load your body weight behind the ball and give yourself maximum power buildup and the ability to launch your arm, foot or club straight down the target by an aggressive move into the ball.
If you watch the stack/tilt video all the model swings they use look like they are playing a punch shot…..limited hand and arm turn back and thru….
I have witnessed the total destruction of one touring pros game because of this method. He went from having a decent controlled draw on the ball (but on a consistent basis)...to hitting it OOB on any hole he stood up on..Par 3’s included…in either direction

Interesting RT1.

Earl Woods claimed that Course Management is Tiger’s Greatest Strength (even though it’s clearly putting/the odd miracle play!).

To illustrate it, he told a story of Tiger as a kid/teenager choosing to play down the left side of a hole and into rough in order to get the best angle on a particular hole that had flummoxed the field.

The other issue with the modern driver that is never mentioned here is that because the ball goes 300+ yards instead of c.250, it is much more difficult to get it to land in the fairway.

Why? Purely and simply because the target is 50 yards+ farther away.

Interesting comments on Ian Woosman.

I was at the Masters at a practice round two years ago and Woosman was playing with Adam Scott and Geoff Ogilvy. He slammed his drive past both of them, I was absolutely amazed.

He’s about 5’5, out of shape, smoking, etc. and absolutely pounded the ball.

Most impressive part was his transition. He seemed to be halfway back on the downswing and the club head was still going back. He created incredible lag, with a very quick swing, once he pulled the trigger.

Same impression about Woosnam. In the 1992 US Open at Pebble, I parked myself right smack in the back of the tee box of the par-3 12th hole during a practice round and watched almost every player come through. The hole was at the tips so probably around 215 to 220 yards. The ball probably flew 20 yards shorter back then. Woosnam came up, pulled out a four iron and just gave the ball a serious thump. My jaw dropped, I never saw a ball smashed like that. His shot ended up around 5 feet from the hole. He then turned to his caddie and said, “that shot deserves a cigarette” and proceeded to light one.

On a side note, most of us who watch professional golf from our couches are quick to criticize and often don’t realize how good a touring professional plays the game. During that same US Open in 1992, Tom Kite shot a final round 72 on Pebble Beach with gale force winds blowing, US Open course conditions and with final round US Open pressure. I played a decent game back, enough to be able to make it as a walk-on for a college team, and was playing Spanish Bay at the same time Kite was winning the US Open. The wind was blowing so hard I didn’t break 90 from the blue tees!

Showme,

You must be talking about Tom S. He was gasping for air long before he tweeked his swing.

In the examples you mentioned, tennis, kicking, throwing, of course you don’t hit off the left foot. It is a move to the left foot but just from a different postion( centered as opposed from the right foot)The levers are moving to impact from the center of the swing as opposed from the right foot. The linear move of the hips up and left (JB Holmes belt buckle elevates 8 inches due to this tailbone thrust with the driver)moves the low point of the swing left and hip thrust unwinds and releases levers. I have 100’s of sequences from 50 years back to now that will show you how centered players stayed on the backswing. Do some research and I think you may discover something new.

Tailbone thrust, or left leg straightening upward thrust?

The left leg up allows the tailbone move forward and hips to swivel.

rt
You obviously are in love with the s/t move….i think in one of your posts you mention that you teach it? If I am correct…. That;s great if you have confidence in something
(In my previous post I wasn’t talking about TS ….I have someone else in mind.. F.L)
The fact remains…..every good ball striker EVER has swung in the manner I have discussed.
I have all the vids also….I have played golf with them all…I have practiced with them all and discussed a lot about their swing thoughts with them all…..
They build a back swing against a firm right leg…..turn the shoulders to the target to get the built up spring effect on the top of their swing….then unwind with hips, then torso, then arms until the club eventually catches up and everything unleashes into the ball.
They move laterally to begin the downswing and then the hips clear left and their shoulders remain square down the target line at impact and into a full body release and up into a follow thru
When someone who s&t’s actually breaks into the top 50 in driving stats and GIR for an entire season…then I may have a fairer view of it but that is a long way off because that move is only beneficial to short irons, not longer shafted clubs
We could go back and forth all day about it…however Weir is a good promo for them (but only because he is awesome with a wedge and the putter) and Badds is a good advert (because he hits it marginally better than he did when Leadbetter and co messed him up but he putts better than just about anyone on the planet)... Not because either of them flush it …. I guarantee not many people would stop and watch them hit balls on the range like people did or still do with Snead, Norman, Hogan, Nicklaus, Tiger

Good post..I am not certainly not in love with anything. I modify components. I have worked with Lead,Phil Ritson, Mac, among others and everyone has info that if a student stuck with would improve..at least to certain degrees.

I am not sure who you are watching or practicing with, but some of the info you are receiving is very vague. If you are out there as you say..look up Andy or Mike and they will clear up any questions.

What you are saying could apply to any swing pattern. When you mentioned the shoulders turn to the target..I am hoping you meant the left shoulder will feel down and in doing so create a circular turn ( no oval shape) extending the spine. The shoulder plane will be slightly steeper as a result. Argueably the most difficult move.

You must be talking about Frank L 3. Good ball striker ..I have played with him as well.

No I mean ….Franklin..L…..his game really hit the skids unfortunately

Circular turn it is….quite a difficult feeling or motion for most people to do… but certainly effective in delivering the club on a good consistent plane…..I call it keeping the shoulders more vertical throughout the swing

Every flusher of the ball in every era has swung the club by bracing the right leg and turning the torso back and behind the ball building up power like a corkscrew and then unleashing that power into the downswing by initiating with the hips and dropping the club down to create lag and more power and never letting their body to get too far ahead of the ball at impact.

Show me,

That is absolutely the most ludicrious statement I have heard from someone who can probably,maybe compress the golf ball!!

Go look at tapes of Bobby Jones..not much of a load there. Why would you move off the ball only to move back on to it? It Does not effect power but will deminsh timing needed strike the ball correctly. You really need to do some research and study swings before you blanket every “flusher” of the ball as moving the torso waaaaay back over the right leg. Do you also believe the spine back up on the forward swing as well? !!

Good debate anyway!!

I played with FL in the mid 90’s numerous times. ok ballstriker..great guy..none better. I did not know he was a s/t.

did he work with Mike or Andy?

show me

F.Lang. played for a lot of years and has had recent success on the Nationwide. He is not done yet I am sure, but maybe not as motivated as he was when he was younger.

Same thing happened to me about 5 years ago.

Every flusher of the ball in every era has swung the club by bracing the right leg and turning the torso back and behind the ball building up power like a corkscrew and then unleashing that power into the downswing by initiating with the hips and dropping the club down to create lag and more power and never letting their body to get too far ahead of the ball at impact.

Show me,

That is absolutely the most ludicrious statement I have heard from someone who can probably,maybe compress the golf ball!!

Go look at tapes of Bobby Jones..not much of a load there. Why would you move off the ball only to move back on to it? It Does not effect power but will deminsh timing needed strike the ball correctly. You really need to do some research and study swings before you blanket every ’Äúflusher” of the ball as moving the torso waaaaay back over the right leg. Do you also believe the spine back up on the forward swing as well? !!

Good debate anyway!!

You need to read what I said…it is nothing like you say

I said…..”brace the right leg and turn the torso back and behind the ball…..”
1) Not once did I mention moving off the ball….that’s why the right leg is braced…so you don’t move off it
2) Nowhere do I say every flusher moves their torso way back over the right leg….I never said back over their leg. I said back behind the ball
Very different thing….

I say they move their left shoulder back behind the BALL….. no lateral sway, just a firm right leg that supports most of the weight as the torso turns back behind the ball

.Because the club moves back, so the body needs to flow with it… hence weight will be moving back and forth to some degree throughout the swing because it will be moving with the clubface and shaft to keep the momentum

show me

F.Lang. played for a lot of years and has had recent success on the Nationwide. He is not done yet I am sure, but maybe not as motivated as he was when he was younger.

Same thing happened to me about 5 years ago.

He’s motivated…that’s for sure…but he went searching for something extra to regain his PGA card and ended up in stack tilt land….. he won in Utah a couple of weeks later towards the end of 2007…...then 2008 came along…..25 rounds….168 over par…with scores in one stretch of 83,90,83,82,84…for a stroke ave of 77.96
This from a guy that had a good run on the PGA Tour for a few seasons although he never won…very sad to see

Rather goes to show that ‘one method does not suit all’. S&T has helped many but distracted others from things they may well have done better.

Since we are talking axis tilt, can all these guys be wrong?

Anyone experimenting with S and T, you’d better know something I don’t know.. you’re certainly going against the grain of what history has shown us in the great players of the past..

I just don’t see the logic in any way, that you would not want to be in a well tilted spine axis at impact, with the head behind the ball, because the head is not low point… the left shoulder is.. and the head is behind the shoulder. Even if S and T has the objective to shift the player from a reverse spine angle into an impact tilted back angle, why would you want to do that?

I don’t see anything wrong with starting from a well tilted address position that doesn’t need to move around a lot..

I’d much rather actually sway way off the ball than have my spine tilted toward the target at address or the top…

Do it if you want, but I think it’s literally a “head” in the wrong direction.

GLOSSARY – Axis Tilt…To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the Shoulder Axis by moving the Hips.

2-H…Though the “Head” Pivot Center is recommended, it is not at all mandatory….”On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by tilting its axis-the spine.

2-N-1…The Downward Force results from the action of Axis Tilt…

Yes, we have choice, 10-23-E. CIRCLE DELlVERY PATHS “no axis tilt”

Do S&T teachers really teach all players side tilt to start up with, I question….

I don't see anything wrong with starting from a well tilted address position that doesn't need to move around a lot..

I'd much rather actually sway way off the ball than have my spine tilted toward the target at address or the top…

Do it if you want, but I think it's literally a ’Äúhead” in the wrong direction.

I agree, Lag. In our swing model, we teach four spine tilts to the right at Setup, called #1 Spine Tilt, depending on club category. 0 degrees for the wedges, 5 degrees for 6-9 iron, 10 degrees for long irons, hybirds and fairway woods, and 15 degrees for driver. This is tilt from the mid-spine region – NOT the lumbar region, so our pelvic girdle is level at Setup.

Then we want the golfer to coil the shoulder girdle 90 degrees to the spine (c7/t1) while maintaining the original Setup #1 Tilt all the way to the Top – no increase or decrease in that tilt. That will load the torso coil a bit more to the right for the longer clubs, which is a good idea for plane, angle of attack and Low Point for those clubs. And a bit less for the shorter clubs which require a steeper angle of attack and Low Point more in front of the ball. There is no upper body sway to the right at all. The upper center or sternum rotates of course, but there is no lateral sway at all. So the chief goal of s/t is achieved just as well with this method, which is better contact through better Low Point control through the absence of a lateral shift.

This is more or less what most good ballstrikers have done historically. Making the adjustments at Setup is logical, smart and easy to do, requires no in swing compensations to get to a solid impact and proper Low Point. You just swing.

S/T seems to be at least partially based on a faulty premise, at least from what I read in the original GD article and some stuff on the Web, which is that Low Point for all clubs is the same spot in front of the ball, similar to what Clampett wrote in this book recently. If that was true, then it might have some real merit. I am not at all convinced that all clubs should have the same Low Point – and by logical extension that means the same angle of attack. Different clubs require radically different angles of attack and Low Points to be strike the ball optimally.

Left arm and club length provide radius. Lowest point of that radius is under your left shoulder unless you are going to change that points height from impact fix to actual impact to a different level.

The club design offers you some guidance to where the ball position is going to be below that natural low point. The ball is always going to be behind LP. And that LP is in the same spot.

Drive has the ball almost at LP. A wedge well back from LP.

Once you grasp the birds eye Arc or Angle of Approach to the ball from an On Plane delivery line life gets easier.

Guru – yes, of course, I was referring to the fact that ball position will vary relative to Low Point, further away for wedges, close to it for driver. Also with the notion that relative to the ground itself, Low Point will vary, ie half inch deep dirt divot with the wedges and above the grass with a drive.

I disagree with the notion that Low Point relative to the body is “left shoulder”. For one, it’s much too imprecise. The “left shoulder” is a pretty big area of the body, is it the left shoulder extremity or the left armpit area?

Also, it really isn’t the left shoulder in any case, it only looks like that when you look at impact pics or video, due to Arm Swing Illusion and two dimensional nature of the video and pics. It is actually much closer to the left nipple, how’s that for precision? The left arm is well to the right of mid-line at impact, but when we see a pic with left arm perpendicular to the ground and assume – correctly if left wrist is flat – that this is Low Point, it “looks like” the left arm is more or less in line with the left armpit or some part of the left shoulder. It’s most assuredly NOT in line with those body parts, especially so with the driver and longer clubs, since the shoulder girdle is open to the target line at impact,20-35 degree range for most tour pros.We can’t “see” this open shoulder girdle in a two dimensional format, but can easily see it from the overhead camera view.

I believe it is a misconception that Low Point is always forward of the ball position. With the driver, it can be – and latest Trackman data confirms this – and ideally should be for maximum carry and roll, behind the ball position. I think this is a glaring error in Clampett’s book and in TGM as well. You can have a driver clubhead moving upward a bit – having passed it’s Low Point – without losing a FLW or flipping. Right spine tilt through impact is one way to achieve this.

Low Point has other variables affecting it’s position, like amount of right spine tilt and lateral weight shift to front foot, and whether your arms are disconnecting from your chest or find the same SuperConnection point on your chest from p3 to just after impact.

I am always striving in my coaching to build more consistent Low Point in my student’s swing, by reducing all of the variables that affect it to the minimum necessary.

guru

you can’t leave us there without some visual please from a birds eye perspective

I agree BP,

Low point is not as clear cut as it would seem..
Low point as we would observe from a front view, the reality is that
this will be at the point that is lowest in the circular arc of the clubhead, assuming we know what level is. The tangent of a circle that is closest to the center of the earth. We certainly complicate things with uphill and downhill and combos including sidehill lies, and we have to make a choice as to whether we are seeking a true earth lowpoint, or one that is simply parallel to the ground we are standing upon. Wind conditions, lie, and ground conditions all need to be addressed.

The fact that the torso is rotating, and some players are turning flat and others are steep, all affect low point relationships.

Swingers and Hitters also have different low points in relation to the plane line whether on the line or inside of the plane line (closer to the body) if you are angle hinging. How hard you “cut it left” changes low point..

My round today at Mare was less than impressive on the scorecard (74) but I did have to really heighten my awareness of this very subject. The fairways were cut very close, yet is has been raining for days, and every shot was “fat” waiting to happen. The ball seemed to be sitting on a thin piece of mud all day, and it really was critical that divots were consistent, and not too heavy. Even my 68 Hogan “Bounce Soles” were not going to be offering any “bounce” today. Thin to win was the theme.. I was picking it really clean most of the day.

I missed 6 greens today and interestingly enough that 3 of those missed greens were due to shots that were just ever so slightly heavy, which left me a club short of the green. On a dry day, all three of those shots would have been on the green putting for birdie rather than trying to get up and down from 40 feet.

Needless to say, it was a great day for divot analysis. I took a few bacon strips that I almost wanted to take home with me. 8 inches long, with a slight left curve to them and only a half inch thick. Moe would have been proud. It was much like taking divots off a wet putting green. (not recommended!)

I became a much better and more consistent ball striker when I moved away from Doyle Chops, and McHatton Mc Macs.

I am a firm believer in FLW being pivot produced rather than divot produced.

I’ve always presumed Guru’s low point description to mean left armpit/inside left arm.

Look at it (with your t-shirt off), and it’s pretty much on your left nipple in the impact zone – until blast off time!

I don’t think the outside of the left arm was ever really a runner?

Lag,

Anyone experimenting with S and T, you'd better know something I don't know.. you're certainly going against the grain of what history has shown us in the great players of the past..

I just don't see the logic in any way, that you would not want to be in a well tilted spine axis at impact, with the head behind the ball, because the head is not low point… the left shoulder is.. and the head is behind the shoulder. Even if S and T has the objective to shift the player from a reverse spine angle into an impact tilted back angle, why would you want to do that?

s/t wants 18-20 degrees of tilt at impact. Just like the photos you show. The big difference is they do this with less right tilt at address (2nd) and simply move the hips forward on the forward swing. Not suggesting anything new here. The leaning left has has been grossly misunderstood and imho has been detrimental in communication. Students watch the infomercial and think..reverse pivot..what they have heard NOT to do from their ‘can’t strike a ball themselves professional’ and it puts a fear of change in their mind. If the low center moves on the backswing with the spine tilted to much to the right at address they will sway or even invert the spine.( to a reverse pivot)
If they move the lower center on s/t the same thing will happen.
I agree with the low point being the shoulder , nipple area. The bottom line is it needs to stay in front of the ball at impact, as you know. s/t is only suggesting to keep the upper center(sternum) from moving off the ball. A post earlier mentioned moving the torso behind the ball ..s/t keeps it over the ball..which is actually still behind the low point ..given the fact someone has decent ball position(not off the right foot). So you see we are using low point here not where the ball is located.

Thanks and respond please..not bad playing in those Muddy conditions..I have played many Donald Ross courses and sounds like Mare is on those lines.

I remember playing Black Horse on Nationwide Tour and same conditions..you felt the fat every shot!! What a bi

---

of a course..Heard they are looking to use it on the rotation for the AT&T. Do you have footage of your swing to post ?

Head in front of ball at top of backswing (with irons), but behind at impact – it has a crazy sort of logic to it….....

Also; explain me this:

If it works with short irons, as Lag seems to accept it does, why shouldn’t it work with longer clubs?

Though it probably belongs in the ‘suspect golfing lore’ category, I have heard this one a million times: “make the same swing with every club”.

Beez,

You are never setting up with the head in front of the ball..ever. And it does not move in front at impact. The hips move forward which gives the spine the right tilt.

Sorry RT1 – not setup with head in front – top of backswing with head in front. Think I saw an S&T merchant promoting that move.

(Edit: Hard not too if you tilt your spine forward in the backswing?).

Lag/Guru/Loren
If you were God/Plastic surgeon and had to design custom hands for golf only what would you trim/add to each hand.

Bees,
Maybe swingplane is never the same, although movement patterns, they remain the same,unless trained to change,from research my movement patterns haven’t change in 17 years, until I under went movent patterns training, from extensively hard work and training, over a 12 month period I cahnged my movement patterns to become better and permanent. And I know for the next 17 years these won’t changed they are now in grained.

For an average player you can change your plane line and mechanics as much as you like, although from research i can say the movement patterns won’t have changed, maybe there is an answer here which might solve the average golfer puzzle, why they have golf lesson but never improve, is it really their mechanics or is it movement pattern problems (bodymotion,biomechanics)

R1, hit the nail on the head Stack and tilt, does cause centre of mass to lateral move away from the target,
from a body motion and movement pattern point of view, we wouldn’t call this a very effective movement patterns, and potential injury from S&T very high create problem, from L1 down not good at all, this was from extensive research.
Mechanical, sure may do the job, although I can think of better ways which would be more biomechanically effective and mechanically effective

RT,

If the head center is over the ball at address and the top, how is the head center going to end up well behind the ball by just sliding the hips left? How is the head actually going to move backwards? Why would you want to do that? Why not just start there? I love the idea of eliminating unnecessary movements not adding them.

If you are going to just plan on moving the ball forward at address, sounds like you are loosing a great opportunity to take advantage of right foot ground pressures through impact.

Beez,

A proper golf swing will work for all your clubs… with short irons you can get away with an extremely steep angle of attack because you have lots of loft at your disposal. You can develop a good or even excellent short iron game just playing the ball way back in your stance and either punching or trapping the ball with good results.
You don’t need big lag angles, or clubface rotations, I’ve seen decent golf games based upon this premise down to maybe a 7 iron.

You can’t do this with a long iron. To hit a long iron properly you need good technique. I teach students to hit a long iron right away.
That’s the golf swing… if you can hit a long iron you’re home free in this game from tee to green.

A short iron does not need to be played at lowpoint. A long iron does. However, the long iron still likes as steep an angle of attack as possible, but it has to still be at proper low point. That is why you have to learn those “pro type” angles.. lag angles, proper wrist action, body rotation, and so forth.

A proper golf swing will have a real “sameness” in feel from wedge to driver.

Mac,

If I were to design a golfer, they would be 4 feet tall with super double wide shoulders, forearms like canon barrels, and weigh about 250 pounds, with a thick mid section, and big strong hands like tough leather, but soft in the wrists.

Lag,

I think on of my post was misunderstood..sorry for the poor explanation.

The swing center remains constant throughtout the swing. Ball position is left of the center(therefore it is behind the ball, and opposite the apex of the arc) the head does not move,the hips do move ‘SLIDE” as Andy putts it to the point they will rotate and tailbone will thrust under hip sockets. This happens in order for the club to bottom out on the left side of the arc apex. Really not a radical move if you can see a decent player execute it.

RT

Let’s look at these fine strikers again…

You said the head doesn’t move in stack and tilt. Yet you also said that the head will be well behind the ball at impact just like in these photos. If the head is not moving, wouldn’t the head need to start where these heads are at or around impact.. makes no sense…

If you have a ball position well forward of where most would have it,
then lean towards it, that is the only way I can see what you’re saying making sense… but would not want to give up my right foot support that early to have to move the hips that laterally that early.

Can you post some pics of a model S and T player from a front view? Preferably hitting a longer club?

Dear all,

Yesterday night, I have a practice session and golf talk with a few local PGA members regarding S&T, hip slide stuffs. They teach weight shift; turn and turn; coil and uncoil; turn the hip concepts… with a lot of students, riding M.Benz car. They are rich teachers!

When we exchange opinion, they don’t have much concept regarding hip slide, axis tilt. They teach passive hands. With my limited knowledge, I…abcde…then fghijk….a while, they agreed… but that is only golf talk.

One of a Pro asked:

Once a golfer get into position…Address, waggle, might be forward press, weight shift, or no weight shift, power package loading and assemble, hip 45, shoulder 90, nice hands and arm path to the top, head behind the ball…ready to fire…

Wait, now the above process changed my left shoulder from “pointing the target” to “toward the ball”....

I believe what Homer said regarding Hip slide to start the downswing…To perform hip slide, axis tilt, that is easy when we are standing up…but with all those pivot alignment changing, that is the problem.

We have Over the Top move; casting; run out of right arm for weekend golfers; spinning out; too much spin tilt for better players or even tour players.

So what is the best way or easiest way or thought or feel to bring the club down?

Does the hip move independently? Homer stated that is the function of feet and knee.

Educated Hands? 12-5-2? Should I consider quitting my join and to be a full time teacher just teaching turn and turn? M.Benz…just joking on the last one. hehe

Hope the above is not in any sense of objection to any opinions stated in this thread, just really want to learn more. THX.

Rt – can you address my point about s/t theory having low point and it’s relation to ball position and possibly also angle of attack the same for all clubs, or to be more direct, where do you want the low point to be for a driver – even with the middle of the golf ball, one to two inches behind the golf ball, or four inches ahead of the golf ball as Bobby C says in his book? This is really the crux of the debate here as far as I can tell. I like the idea of the sternum being stable throughout the swing, at least until impact, and as my post stated, there is a way to accomplish this at Setup but without sacrificing the different angle of attack requirements for different club categories, ie steep for wedges, shallow for driver. That is by pre-setting some degree of right spine tilt at setup, more for longer clubs, less for shorter clubs.

In the swing model I have developed, we are always adding dynamically the same amount of right spine tilt from the Top to Impact – about 20 degrees – 10-12 degrees from lower spine region due to lateral hip shift, 5-8 degrees from mid-spine tilt. Since we also teach same arm to chest angle for all clubs, 30-40 degrees measured with left arm, and NO lateral shift from p6 MORAD or P3 Lag’s term, to impact, I feel my model is superior to s/td regarding arriving at a proper low point/angle of attack with consistency. The only really primary variables affecting low point – assuming a level lie as Lag pointed out – is the speed/degree of pivot open at impact and the wrist cock and right arm angle opening speed and timing. Both of those fall more under the category of tempo, rhythm and timing, not so much a mechanical issue for the really good player.

Wedge starts with 0 degrees, add 20 degrees, you get where most pros are at impact. Driver – start with 15 degrees, add 20, you get 35 degrees at impact. I dont see 18-20 degrees as the total amount of right spine tilt at impact except of wedges, 30 degrees even up to 40 degrees with driver with some pros. Measuring from the ground level to entire shoulder girdle. Other models show this same amount of tilt, ie Dr. Ralph Mann’s Swing Like a Pro model, GolfTec, and others.

Most should know who the first two are, but what about the second two?

We sure don’t see this kinda action anymore…

LAG,

PLEASE CHECK THIS LINK..IT IS BADDS FROM THE FRONT VIEW. IT EXPLAINS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN. THE SPINE DOES NOT INCREASE TO THE RIGHT ON THE FORWARD SWING LIKE MANY DO.

LET ME KNOW YOUR OPINION.

http://www.vimeo.com/1932607

Lag,

The second two?
The King and George Knudson?

A few sections of Aaron with reference to TGM Dina pictures…

That third guy has a Gay swing

Good job!

Hogan of course,
Trevino
Gay Brewer
George Knudson.

Moe told me only Trevino, Hogan, and Knudson could
strike the ball as well as he did.

It’s really amazing how much knee bend Knudson had coming
into impact, almost 90 degrees. A very conscious effort to lower
his center of gravity, and get onto as flat a swing plane as Hogan.
He was obsessed with Hogan’s swing, and obviously aware of the
advantages of such a delivery path.

All four are really coming into impact on a very shallow plane.

Shallow is king, but it is SO hard to trust. Or even re-train your body/mind to allow this kind of attack angle… by leaving the club pretty much behind you.

I’ll probably never really get it, but I like to think it’s one of those things you can start to get with time. It seems so easy to top the ball when it’s exaggerated yet in those pictures Lag posted, these guys have so much club behind them… amazing really.

Lag,

did you check the front view of s/t I sent you?

rt1,

I’m not really seeing the reverse spine tilt that seems to be talked about in the vid link or the pic above..

Certainly swing planes, angle of attack, pivots and ground pressures are all very tied together, and need to be working with one another and not in opposition.

Isn’t one of the main concepts to stop a player from shifting weight to the right and not off the ball?

If you start more behind the ball in the first place, then that takes care of that concept pretty fast.

I think one has to come to terms with what is ideal..
The greatest ball strikers do favor shallower swing planes with minimal plane shifting.

You could swing on a flatter plane with S and T… sure, but it would be pivot restricting, would appear to encourage independent arm activity, and most certainly would shorten the radius of the hands.

If we look at the greats, we see a lot more, maximum hand radius, with minimal hand travel, supported by maximum pivot rotation.
I know that sounds like a mouthful, but if you look closely, there is a great logic there.

Having a lot of tilt in the spine sets a player up nicely to come into impact from a deeper and potentially more powerful position. It increases the range of motion for the hands, and helps save some pivot rotation for post impact body acceleration.

The steep shoulder rotation post impact of S and T would not be consistent with a pivot driven golf swing. I don’t see it working with Mac’s ideals either, at least not his earlier MORAD stuff… the stuff he was using when he was winning on tour back in the late 80’s.

The strange thing for me is that S and T is exactly what my golf swing feels like when I am striking it poorly. I feel steep, upright,
dead in the legs, and I hit a lot of slightly pushed and pulled shots..
It kind of hurts my eyes just looking at it, and my back too.

I used to be a steep shoulder guy but a spine injury ended that..
probably the best thing for my golf swing..

Let’s look at Hale Irwin..

Might Hale have some S and T going on in the way you describe?
He is one of the straightest and best strikers on the steeper-upright side of things..

but I see some big differences..

Prot,

we certainly have been working you in the direction of the classic ball strikers, and your improvement has been significant. OTT and the slice are now a thing of the distant past, with zero chance of recurring..
and we did a lot to shallow your delivery path.

As difficult as it might be to get as deep as Hogan or Gary Player, I think you are feeling the positive effects of just having that as a direction or area of focus.

If you are going to spend time working on your golf swing, why not work in the direction of high ideals that are both time tested and proven by the master ball strikers of the game?

Why limit yourself? You never know how good you might get.

I can’t rule out that in 2 or 3 years you might have comparable hand action and a proper pivot that would be very much inline with what we see in the greats of the game.. it’s not that hard to build the initial framework if you are working on the right things..

BPS1,
where do you get your measurements from ?
They are way off the truth of what the correct degrees of spine angle is.
You said most Pros are your prescribed measurements, I think that is a very big assumption on your behalf.
With what acutally measured data do you have to verify this?
From years of research we have found what you’re saying isn’t very accurate at all. More like an opinion or assumption not measured science.
How about not guessing and actually use proper measured science. Not bull sh…t V1 or Dartfish measuresments. They can’t accuratley measure movement patterns.
You are kidding yourself if you believe they are accurate measurements.

For the guys who have 30 to 40 degrees of spine tilt, they have a very ineffective movement pattern. And have an 90% chance of potential Injury.
10 to 12 degrees in the lower back, now definatley 90% chance of potential injury.

You guys all know the buzz words, but don’t fully undersatnd body movement patterns and body motion.
This is very clear to me as I read the garabage written on here.

BPS, i’m sorry but when you speak about measurements and spine angles you speak total garbage.

I can tell you now from measuring most tour players, your measurements aren’t acurate and if we find a player who has the measurements you describe, we pull him off tour and rebuild him before he destroys his career due to back injury and having an ineffective movement pattern.

RT1
Stack and Tilt is not a very effective movement pattern at all.
Even though you believe your weight is on your left side, your centre of mass has moved on your right side,
it’s the same move as a reverse pivot, when measured biomechanically.

From research stack and tilt has been proven to not to be an effective movement pattern. And you have a high potential injury for lower back region.

Bio,

How many tour events have you won? Stick with the science and leave ball striking techniques and putting a score on the board to Professionals like me .. we will stick to the art of compression of the golf ball. And don’t say “you don’t know what you are talking about”
If I were to have brain surgery I would not go to someone who can tell me all about it and convince me they know everything that should be done because they have studied the technique. I would actually go to someone who has done it many many times before. That is partially what is wrong with so called science. The best players did not always have a physicist telling them every angle, etc.to learn to strike the ball. As Hogan said ..the secret is in the ground..meaning go practice and figure it out.

You should show a little respect..that is all I am asking.

rt1

what about Hale Irwin?

Bio,

In my pattern..I am in the process of designing mine, I do not stay on the left side ..my weight is centered. Furthermore, you obviously did not know that Plummer/Bennet have had the top scientist in the country evaluate the movement and it was determined there was no more chance of potential injury than any other pattern.

How do you explain other back injuries? Science will also tell us splenda is bad for your health..but fail to say you would need to ingest 1000 packs a day for 20 years…( or something like that )

And I can promise you ….MY mass is not to the right side.. maybe it is in the chops you studied….you probably don’t believe this because science tells you the opposite

LAG,

Good to hear from you.

I like Hale’s action. He played the little over the top move to millions!! His upper center is stationary ..Personally not a big fan of left heel up and lose of width ( right arm at top ) and looks like he looses the 2nd accumulator early..Looks like a recent photo..Maybe he has lost a little..He is 60 now ..at least..Pretty amazing career..

I don’t recall him having any abnormal back problems from staying centered as bio mentioned.

Lag,

Are you playing this weekend? I played 9 today..several balls..windy..but hit it well. Working on rounding off more at p3-p4.
I have a fairly big event in 3 weeks.

Lag,

On your earlier mention of steep post impact, and dead legs,etc. The shoulder plane is on a 90 degree to the spine the entire swing. Given an approximate 35-38 degree tilt to the spine (with the ground ) the shoulders will appear steeper than others. I have pix of Arnie doing this exact move with a driver. From there he just leaps at the ball ..

You may feel steep if the hips stall and the tailbone does not tuck under the hips. I would like to get you on the stuff I am currently working on.

Bio,

If you find a Tour player who is winning millions a year you are not going to be able to “pull him off the tour” because he has bad measurements or not. And I can assure you there are some that fall in this category. You are flattering yourself to think you could convince anybody of that statement.

Bio – once again you fail to read what I wrote in my post and project your own venom and ignorance. I listed two of the sources – try reading it. I also said measured from ground level to entire shoulder girdle. Here’s a real deep and difficult to understand “scientific” procedure for you – take an impact photo of a tour pro at impact from side view, take a protractor – yeah, like in high school geometry – and MEASURE THE DAMN ANGLE! Compare that to their Setup angle so you can determine how much tilt was added dynamically.

30-40 degrees is the range for driver for pros at impact. I can show a six year old how to do this and the measurements don’t lie.

Obviously your parents never taught you proper manners. Personal attacks only make you look bad. Your’e a golf professional – it’s time you started acting like one.

Question to the forum…

Somewhere between June of 1988 and 1990, Golf Digest or Golf Magazine did a feature story on the top tour pros of that era, including Greg Norman hitting drivers off of two independent scales under each foot..

There were some very interesting results from that… not sure if that ever got syndicated down to Oz, but I think it might have been in 1989
because Jim Benepe was one of the pros in the feature, I remember this because Jim was playing on the Canadian Tour and he received a sponsor’s exemption into the PGA Tour event (Western Open) and I gave him a ride to the airport in Edmonton, and he went to Chicago and made PGA Tour history winning his very first start in a PGA Tour event.. needless to say we never saw him again in Canada. lol
He won that in 1988 so I know the article wasn’t before June of 88.

I thought if anyone could track that article down, it would be of interest with all the Stack and Tilt stuff and discussion going on here..

anyone remember this? I think it was a cover story..

Question to the forum…

Somewhere between June of 1988 and 1990, Golf Digest or Golf Magazine did a feature story on the top tour pros of that era, including Greg Norman hitting drivers off of two independent scales under each foot..

There were some very interesting results from that… not sure if that ever got syndicated down to Oz, but I think it might have been in 1989
because Jim Benepe was one of the pros in the feature, I remember this because Jim was playing on the Canadian Tour and he received a sponsor's exemption into the PGA Tour event (Western Open) and I gave him a ride to the airport in Edmonton, and he went to Chicago and made PGA Tour history winning his very first start in a PGA Tour event.. needless to say we never saw him again in Canada. lol
He won that in 1988 so I know the article wasn't before June of 88.

I thought if anyone could track that article down, it would be of interest with all the Stack and Tilt stuff and discussion going on here..

anyone remember this? I think it was a cover story..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Do a research on the scales used and basically any scientist will tell you it was measured with “Junk Science Equipment”. Yes some more education given

Bps,
Thankyou you answered my question, so your providing information on this website doing high school measurements and stating this is the measurements of a tour player. I feel sick.

This is my point thousands of readers come on here to learn and ask professionals so they can learn play better golf. Now is it fair to them you are not providing them with accurate information?

From hundreds of tour players we’ve screened , including some of the best in the world their data tells us entirely different measurements.

BPS I’m about the athlete and the readers and I don’t think it is fair to them to provide them with incorrect measurements.
Why not be honest and say you used a protractor instead of giving a false preceptions, that these are accurate measurements . Thats not fair to the readers at all.

Yeah I fire up and I will continue to fire up cause I think it’s very unprofessional of you providing incorrect measurements to readers and not only you anyone elso who does.
For me it is not about Ego or personal gain it’s bout the athlete and providing the athletes with correct information. Don’t call me unprofessional when the true reality is I’m attacking you for being unprofessional in the first place.

RT1,
You are right there are alot of nicked up players out there and the coaches call us in to measure thier players, to find out why they are nicked up, and then they get us to train their players to change their movement patterns. Sometimes they have no choice but have to come off tour they are so badly nicked up. Sadly if we had the chance to screen them earlier we could have prevented this occuring. we don’t only measure we train athletes as well.

Ok have you ever heard of muscular loading? Do the Stack and Tilt boys speak of this ? Ah no can the scientists you speak of can they measure this no. Why they are using 2D and a cheap 12 sensor 6 dof system. The reason they can’t is they can’t measure anatomical time. They can’t measure between each sensor, all they get a read out of is where the sensor is located.Also they can’t measure joint centres and between joint centres, so then the big question is how accurate is their data.

So how can they accuratley measure if the centre of mass is moving laterally if they can’t measure anatomical time or space?
How do they know how much torque they are putting on the spine if they can’t measure between each sensor?

I can play the game, compressing the ball ,the other day at the range if I flushed 5 drivers in a row out of a divot , whilst golf coaches were watching me do a demonstration would this mean I have compression?
I use to coach as well whilst studying for the field I’m in now, although now I work with some of the best coaches in the world measuring their players and training their players to improve their movement pattern ,we work as a team. They come to us in aid of helping them help their players to compress the ball better as well.

We have worked with Stack and tilt coaches and measured their players, although once they see the data and see what impact stack and tilt has on their players backs, they change their tune about stack and tilt also when we educate them about muscular loading and movement patterns, They soon steer away from Stack and Tilt interesting.

Bio – true to form, you once again totally missed my point about high school geometry. I think the readers did get it though. You are so enamored with your newfound love affair with your so-called “science” and high tech, you can’t find the nose on your own face.

Einstein discovered Special Relativity using a pencil and paper. Sometimes the Low Tech solution is the best solution. Geometry doesn’t lie, and I trust that over what your overly inflated ego thinks that it knows from all of your high tech gimmickry. Dr.Mann, Dr. Jobe and GolfTec have all come up with the same figures by the way. I clearly explained how any reader here can analyze right spine tilt by studying impact and address photos so that they at least have a starting point in understanding this thread, which is so much about the effect of right spine tilt on the golf swing and s/t. I added something of value to the discussion. You added nothing.

You have all the earmarks of Fundamentalist Personality Disorder, ie your belief in your biomechanical gurus system is bordering on fanatical religious belief. You come on this forum and constantly attack professional golf teachers with a ton of knowledge and experience, and much success helping students, and yet you NEVER provide a single shred of evidence to proof to us that “your way” is superior. I wonder why that is, maybe because your simply don’t have the evidence? Are we just supposed to trust you? Based on your behavior here, your lack of logical presentation of your arguement, I wouldn’t trust you if my life depended on it.

You are un-professional in the way you treat others on this forum with constant personal attacks and insults. Time to grow up and act like a man, bring it if you have it so all can see. If you don’t have it, time to shut up.

Bio,

Who are the s/t teachers you are working with? I f they have not worked with Plummer or Bennet they are unqualified to say they are certified s/t teachers. Anyone can get the cd and say they are s/t experts. BS…

Give me a few clues to who ..I will tell you if they are legit

Lag

You have had a screening with Bio.
I believe you said it was very informative. Could you chime in her so that BP and Bio could stop their arguing. It really does get tiresome listening to this destructive argumentative dialogue.
It’s like Jeffman all over again.

Bio,

Who are the s/t teachers you are working with? I f they have not worked with Plummer or Bennet they are unqualified to say they are certified s/t teachers. Anyone can get the cd and say they are s/t experts. BS…

Give me a few clues to who ..I will tell you if they are legite

I would like to know that too.

And can you explain the graph posted before Bio:

Specifically, what does the vertical line represent, what is the x-axis and what the sudden drop after the line is due to. The conclusions we came to before mean the ball was on the clubface for 5 inches, so I’m assuming we’re reading it incorrectly.

I don’t think either Bio, BP, Dart, Guru, Sevam1 or myself are convinced that Stack and Tilt is the best direction to go with the golf swing…

I would need to see top 10 at least in stats on tour in driving accuracy and GIR before I would even consider it… I also need to see the golf digest article from the late 80’s that measured impact weight distribution of the feet of Norman, Faldo, Price, and other great strikers… so until then,
I’m a skeptic at best.. I don’t see any role models yet…

I would also need to see that it would be a technique capable of performing well with classic gear… but that’s just me…

I’m sure all of the above professional contributors here and myself are all in favor of Pivot driven golf swings, not upright arm slapping.

Homer said it nicely..

1-J The golf swing should be taught, preferably starting at the feet...

I work my students into the feet on the second lesson..

Sevam1 certainly beats us all with his book “The secrets in the Dirt”

I would also need to see that it would be a technique capable of performing well with classic gear… but that's just me…

What do you mean classic gear???........I understand you have a connection with equiptment from a certain era and thats fair enough, but how would you feel if someone told you your swing was no good because you can’t hit your featherie with your brassie in your waist coat, tie and jacket.

The first british open was won with a score of 174 over 36 holes…......

We all have romantic recollections of the past but times change. I bet back then some people thought like you do when they changed to a gutta-percha ball.

The game remained virtually unchanged for over 50 years.. from the invention of steel shafts… it was for good reason, as hickory shafts were very expensive, there was a shortage of hickory, and it was a necessary evolution, practical, functional and still required golf to be played with great skill from tee to green.

The changes in the game since the corporate takeover running wild have changed the game so radially in such a short period of time it is almost unrecognizable..

The motivation has simply been to sell as many clubs as possible, take the craftsmanship out of the game, lengthen all the courses to sell more home lots.. offer a driver each year that is bigger, longer, more face bounce, whatever, to convince you to throw away your driver from two years ago… it’s wasteful, counter productive, driven by greed alone, and disrespectful to the game, and all the amazing golf courses that were created with all the right intentions. Most of our greatest tests here in the states are completely obsolete now, and Augusta is nowhere near the test it once was.. longer yes, but nearly as gamey..

Any course can be made impossible by making it 8000 yards.. big deal.. I could take anyone out to my home track and put them back
75 yards on each hole and jump up and down and say what an impossible monster it is..

Let’s play Mare at 7800 yards and bring your modern weapons and lets see if any tour pro on the earth can touch par… good luck..

Forcing golf to go LONG is silly, profiteering ego driven testosterone nonsense..
These changes to the game have been driven by non golfers, who figured out a way to exploit a fundamentally wonderful game.

The USGA and R and A have been railroaded by the manufactures who now how the power reigns, it’s absurd.. if they try to hold anything back, it’s in a US courtroom within a week.

Golf used to be a game, now it’s a shareholders hostile takeover.

As far as a challenge to go back and play the featherie and hickories, I would welcome the challenge with open arms..

Love it or despise it, don’t blame me. My contribution to golf’s carbon footprint is ZERO!

I am far from the only one that feels this way..

The game remained virtually unchanged for over 50 years.. from the invention of steel shafts… it was for good reason, as hickory shafts were very expensive, there was a shortage of hickory, and it was a necessary evolution, practical, functional and still required golf to be played with great skill from tee to green.

The changes in the game since the corporate takeover running wild have changed the game so radially in such a short period of time it is almost unrecognizable..

The motivation has simply been to sell as many clubs as possible, take the craftsmanship out of the game, lengthen all the courses to sell more home lots.. offer a driver each year that is bigger, longer, more face bounce, whatever, to convince you to throw away your driver from two years ago… it's wasteful, counter productive, driven by greed alone, and disrespectful to the game, and all the amazing golf courses that were created with all the right intentions. Most of our greatest tests here in the states are completely obsolete now, and Augusta is nowhere near the test it once was.. longer yes, but nearly as gamey..

Any course can be made impossible by making it 8000 yards.. big deal.. I could take anyone out to my home track and put them back
75 yards on each hole and jump up and down and say what an impossible monster it is..

Let's play Mare at 7800 yards and bring your modern weapons and lets see if any tour pro on the earth can touch par… good luck..

Forcing golf to go LONG is silly, profiteering ego driven testosterone nonsense..
These changes to the game have been driven by non golfers, who figured out a way to exploit a fundamentally wonderful game.

The USGA and R and A have been railroaded by the manufactures who now how the power reigns, it's absurd.. if they try to hold anything back, it's in a US courtroom within a week.

Golf used to be a game, now it's a shareholders hostile takeover.

As far as a challenge to go back and play the featherie and hickories, I would welcome the challenge with open arms..

Love it or despise it, don't blame me. My contribution to golf's carbon footprint is ZERO!

I am far from the only one that feels this way..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Fantasy or Fanatic
Either way its a good read

Lag,

Can’t find …The golf swing should be taught, preferably starting at the feet…in 6 or 7th edition 1-J!

Would love to read more of that!

RT1,
Names can’t be revealed as client confidentiality, these boys are certified and some of their players can play, they can smoke any of us anyday of the week.
RT1, I’m telling it, how it is, I have no opinion or views on Stack and Tilt, I thought it was pretty good, till I started seeing data and high rate of potential injury. Which is higher then other techniques.
And Stack and Tilt lacked muscular loading,their movement patterns aren’t very effective. It’s not nice me having to be the bad guy and say hey it’s not a very effective technique but it’s the truth.
What is important is the athlete and if something is going to injury them or in the future create ineffective movement patterns, I’ll speak up it’s nothing personal towards anyone, I’m just stating the cold hard facts.

Steb,
This graph is only part of the equation, there are three other graphs which go with club dynamics.
X is in increments of time , Y is Linear speed, the black line is impact. at the end of the graph.
Lag is a freak of nature it’s rare to see a guy to have continous acceleration after impact, He is cranking., although this graph only indicates linear speed from start to impact and doesn’t indicate compression we have another graph for this.
Onething which impressed me is lag is the only guy I have met who is so intune with his body everything he describe to me he felt what he did in his swing with his body the data verified what he described . That’s impressive.
He is certainly one guy I would prick up my ears and listen to when describing feeling of the body motion in hitting action in T.G.M. I don’t think I have ever met a guy close to be able to describe the feeling as well as he can.

BPS,
What you don’t like being caught out for talking B.S , if you stuck to dynamics like darty,guru and Lag does and not give B.S measurements I would leave you alone.
I’m glad I’m being unprofessional and this is only the begining, I’m going to start firing harder against guys like you cause it’s about time the readers and public are educated the truth not B.S which you make up. Each time you make a coment on inaccurate measurements be prepared for me to fire into you.
Call me unprofessional, WHAT FOR TELLING THE TRUTH, WELL GOOD CALL ME UNPROFESSIONAL. your worse then a realestate agent

RT1,
Names can’t be revealed as client confidentiality, these boys are certified and some of their players can play, they can smoke any of us anyday of the week.
RT1, I’m telling it, how it is, I have no opinion or views on Stack and Tilt, I thought it was pretty good, till I started seeing data and high rate of potential injury. Which is higher then other techniques.
And Stack and Tilt lacked muscular loading,their movement patterns aren’t very effective. It’s not nice me having to be the bad guy and say hey it’s not a very effective technique but it’s the truth.
What is important is the athlete and if something is going to injury them or in the future create ineffective movement patterns, I’ll speak up it’s nothing personal towards anyone, I’m just stating the cold hard facts.

Steb,
This graph is only part of the equation, there are three other graphs which go with club dynamics.
X is in increments of time , Y is Linear speed, the black line is impact. at the end of the graph.
Lag is a freak of nature it’s rare to see a guy to have continous acceleration after impact, He is cranking., although this graph only indicates linear speed from start to impact and doesn’t indicate compression we have another graph for this.
Onething which impressed me is lag is the only guy I have met who is so intune with his body everything he describe to me he felt what he did in his swing with his body the data verified what he described . That’s impressive.
He is certainly one guy I would prick up my ears and listen to when describing feeling of the body motion in hitting action in T.G.M. I don’t think I have ever met a guy close to be able to describe the feeling as well as he can.

BPS,
What you don’t like being caught out for talking B.S , if you stuck to dynamics like darty,guru and Lag does and not give B.S measurements I would leave you alone.
I’m glad I’m being unprofessional and this is only the begining, I’m going to start firing harder against guys like you cause it’s about time the readers and public are educated the truth not B.S which you make up. Each time you make a coment on inaccurate measurements be prepared for me to fire into you.
Call me unprofessional, WHAT FOR TELLING THE TRUTH, WELL GOOD CALL ME UNPROFESSIONAL. your worse then a realestate agent

The game remained virtually unchanged for over 50 years.. from the invention of steel shafts… it was for good reason, as hickory shafts were very expensive, there was a shortage of hickory, and it was a necessary evolution, practical, functional and still required golf to be played with great skill from tee to green.

The changes in the game since the corporate takeover running wild have changed the game so radially in such a short period of time it is almost unrecognizable..

The motivation has simply been to sell as many clubs as possible, take the craftsmanship out of the game, lengthen all the courses to sell more home lots.. offer a driver each year that is bigger, longer, more face bounce, whatever, to convince you to throw away your driver from two years ago… it's wasteful, counter productive, driven by greed alone, and disrespectful to the game, and all the amazing golf courses that were created with all the right intentions. Most of our greatest tests here in the states are completely obsolete now, and Augusta is nowhere near the test it once was.. longer yes, but nearly as gamey..

Any course can be made impossible by making it 8000 yards.. big deal.. I could take anyone out to my home track and put them back
75 yards on each hole and jump up and down and say what an impossible monster it is..

Let's play Mare at 7800 yards and bring your modern weapons and lets see if any tour pro on the earth can touch par… good luck..

Forcing golf to go LONG is silly, profiteering ego driven testosterone nonsense..
These changes to the game have been driven by non golfers, who figured out a way to exploit a fundamentally wonderful game.

The USGA and R and A have been railroaded by the manufactures who now how the power reigns, it's absurd.. if they try to hold anything back, it's in a US courtroom within a week.

Golf used to be a game, now it's a shareholders hostile takeover.

As far as a challenge to go back and play the featherie and hickories, I would welcome the challenge with open arms..

Love it or despise it, don't blame me. My contribution to golf's carbon footprint is ZERO!

I am far from the only one that feels this way..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you have said. But the golf swing has evolved through the years as equiptment has changed. And it will continue to do so.

For what it’s worth my opinion is the golf club manufacturers love the restrictions….....I had to buy a new Driver last year as my old one was non conforming due to a rule change. I wasn’t the only one.

If the ruling authorities want to manage the distance issues I think they should restrict the balls.

thanks for reminding me to never pick up a 6th or 7th edition..!

Here is the exact quote..
second to last paragraph… 1-J

“The program for SOLID progress is the acquisition of one factor at a time, starting any place, but preferably at one end of the machine or the other, the clubface or the feet. PREFERABLY THE FEET.”

I’ve always loved classic old style courses that were built by design across an IDEAL piece of property.. for the sake of making a great golf course…that flowed across the land with as little disturbance to the natural undulations and terrain…not a cheap one.. or for the sole purpose of selling home lots so developers can exploit every possible dollar out of every inch of an otherwise throw away property.

I guess that makes me retro…

I love classic clubs that were designed by someone like Ben Hogan, the greatest ball striker that ever lived, that believed that after his playing days, he could further contribute to the game by crafting the finest irons possible with great forgings that would offer a golfer the kind of feel, playability and performance that only someone like himself could have envisioned. You’d want to learn to strike the ball properly so you could feel the purity of the experience of a dead solid flush shot that would send a heavenly vibration up the shaft into your body that you’d only hear about from your club champion, or another fine respectable player. We played clubs that were completely unique to our own liking, a piece of persimmon, an organic product, each one unique unto itself… you’d cherish it because you knew if it was lost or stolen, it was not replaceable..
you’d see and feel the wood, and nothing sounded better that the crack of persimmon coming off the screws.. now we get a high pitched metallic sound that may even be causing hearing damage in golfers, about as warm sounding as fingernails down a chalkboard.

How about the golf swing?

The easy to hit modern gear allows this golf swing to be the

Best performing Golf swing on the PGA TOUR

I don’t see anyone posting anywhere that this is the greatest swing of all time… why?

What are our chances of seeing another Ben Hogan or Sam Snead?
zero.

Therefore, I think the courses were better, the equipment was better, the swings were better.. and now?

TGM’s retro 5th addition… also better..!!!

Time Machine? or Golf Machine?

Let’s talk Lag’s retro golf TIME MACHINE!

Awesome . Don’t stop Lag boy !! Entertaining stuff!!

Lag,

The last quoted was there both in 6th and 7th!

Just can’t find the exact words you first posted.

As for “feet”, I think Homer also stated quite clear….it is all about “Balance”

...12-3-0. MECHANICAL CHECKLIST:
first one and the last one…

Preliminary Address..
1. Stance-Balance

Finish
45. Balance-Body Position

Rochie,
Evolution of golfswings has deteriated over the years and with equipment of today you can get away with it.
Hogan, Moe norman all the old boys had awesome movement patterns, they swang the club the way it should be, none of this upright junk, flatter the swing the better and straighter.
Alot of Players of today wouldn’t be able to play with prossimons , they wouldn’t be on tour anyway.
In the day you had to have a great golfswing you had no choice, the clubs weren’t forgiving.
Today’s clubs you couldn’t miss a sweet spot if you tried.
Years ago it was ball striking, today all you need to do is be able to chip and putt it’s sad to see.
In the last 20 years of data you can see they have deteriated

BIO,

In regard to your research. Can you tell or e-mail the research you did on s/t? I would like to hear reinforcement data regarding what you’re stating.
I hope you can furnish data from a reliable model ( which unless you have the angles and measurements from Plummer/Bennett it is NOT the model..don’t give me names just initials. I know everyone who is anyone teaching the s/t)

And as far as “those guys can smoke all of us anyday of the week”. Speak for yourself . I don’t want to go into my playing history, but I can assure you my ball striking skills were respected when I had a Tour card.

One of the most important factors ( and most intelligent things you said ) in learning the golf swing , I preach it ..learning to control your body. Most Tour players have control of their body because of repitition of a pattern, and guys like me and Lag have the same stuff and can describe to you what science would confirm. I am surpised you have not found more guys who can do that, which is why I question your subjects.

Lag,

Did you catch my post about playing? How’s your game and did you rip it over the weekend? I would enjoy the opportunity to walk the course with you one day.

RT1,
I’m not going to provide a clients information to you, this is confidential information between the client and us.
Why would I need plummers data for? their pupils tells us the story, the pupils data is what is important.

As I said mechanically stack and tilt can do the job, but as an effective movement pattern isn’t very effective. And have high potential injury.
There’s mechanics and biomechanics (movement patterns)
I’ve seen guys with great mechanics but can’t hit it to save themselves, it was movement pattern issues, fix the movement patterns they can play.
I’ve seen great kinetic links but poor mechanics so they need to be sent off to Darty to get fixed.

Tour players maybe in control of their mechanics, movement patterns ah no , this was found from our boys who have screened ten of thousands of golfers, from choppers to the worlds best.

Our boys have produce some of the greats of the game, had at least four become number 1 , plus a long list of majors in P.G.A and L.P.G.A., lost count of how many P.G.A and L.P.G.A tour wins.

Call me hack I don’t care honestly ,I can play the game and would be out there today on U.S tour only an accident ended my career and I would love to see some with the same injuries I have got , go out there now and shot par and below like I’m capable of today.
I not only got to tour level once but did it twice with a crushed back the second time .Yeah I’m hack.

RT1 so how may wins did you have on the U.S tour?

thanks for reminding me to never pick up a 6th or 7th edition..!

Here is the exact quote..
second to last paragraph… 1-J

’ÄúThe program for SOLID progress is the acquisition of one factor at a time, starting any place, but preferably at one end of the machine or the other, the clubface or the feet. PREFERABLY THE FEET.”

That’s what it says in the 7th edition.

And can you explain the graph posted before Bio:

Specifically, what does the vertical line represent, what is the x-axis and what the sudden drop after the line is due to. The conclusions we came to before mean the ball was on the clubface for 5 inches, so I'm assuming we're reading it incorrectly.

That graph makes zero sense.

Unimpeded acceleration at impact as though the ball was not there.Not even a blip.Was the ball made of feather?

Even freaks of nature cannot change the laws of physics.

The ball on the clubface for 5 inches?I don’t think I need to comment further on that one…....

The graph makes sense if you look at the data points, not the line which is interpolated. The data is at 14 and 15, impact happened at 14 point something where velocity could reasonably be presumed to be higher than at both 14 (continued acceleration) and 15 (impact physics)

DAp,
who mentioned 5 inches , I never did that was other people who didn’t understand the graph made that up, the acceleration continues is 1/60th of a second after impact which would around seperation , then he decelerates.I suppose that isn’t possible either,
Now let me see the greater the speed at impact the greater the momentum and the greater the potential to impart a large impulse on the ball resulting in distance, Club head speed alone does not indicate ball flight distance. There are many other factors which contribute to distance, however club speed is certainly a major contributor.
Lag has greater continous acceleration to impact than most, he also uses 14Oz driver, so the greater the speed the greater the momentum, ad 14oz wow it’s going to take a while to pull this sucker up, So 1/60th of a second after impact wouldn’t be impossible, at first when a ball squashes on the face deceleration isn’t going fully take place until the ball explodes off the face.
Which is when lags club head speeds starts decelerating.
For better players deceleration occurs a lot later simply they compress the ball better and the ball is on the face longer.

5 inches where the hell did that come from ?
And for all the physics guys remeber in golf there in human body motion physics as well which need to be applied.

The horizontal line on the graph is distance travelled by the clubhead.I am assuming the units are feet not inches.

There is no way the ball can stay on the clubface any more than 3/4 inch of clubhead travel at most.

We have asked for more explanation regarding that graph but it’s always been skirted.It’s vague at best.

Bio,

The graph was shown by lagpressure to prove that he could maintain the acceleration of the clubhead after impact,not during.

Shorts Stuff,
Of coarse it isn’t going to make sense you aren’t educated in reading this type of data, I’m not going waste my time explaining either ,you won’t ever fully understand.
This isn’t aimed at you shortstuff
This what shits me people put up our data and then people misinterpret it,
Sorry but when does the buck stop, what is it with golf, everyone is bloody experts at everything and they know all.
DON’T WORRY ABOUT THE GRAPH, your not trained or educated in biomechanics or human body motion to know exactly what the graph is reading.

Shorts Stuff,
Of coarse it isn't going to make sense you are educated in reading this type of data, I'm not going waste my time explaining either you won't ever fully understand.
This what shits me people put up our data and then people misinterpret it,
Sorry but when does the buck stop, what is it with golf, everyone is bloody experts at everything and they know all.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE GRAPH, your not trained or educated in biomechanics to know exactly what the graph is reading.
And damed if I going to explain.

Bio – mate, reread my post ! I follow the graph perfectly, it makes absolute sense to me!!

Out of curiosity now, what are the time increments on the x-axis?

Shortstuff….you don’t even know what the x axis is but you can follow the graph perfectly????

Lagpressure said it’s distance travelled by the clubhead in feet,not TIME!!!!!

It's just simply linear speed of the clubhead starting at some point in the backswing, down to and through the ball, and drops off in velocity as the energy of the club transfers to the ball.. makes sense to me..

The X axis is the clubhead travel in feet..

The Y is the MPH of the clubhead,

The vertical line is the impact or location of the ball.. pretty basic I think..

It all looks correct to me… I'd like to keep working on that post impact #
and that is just about all I ever work on anyway.. my entire golf swing is based upon increasing post impact velocity… accelerate as heavy a club as I can handle into impact and beyond so I can hit lots of greens and keep the ball on the golf course… no mystery..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Shortstuff….you don't even know what the x axis is but you can follow the graph perfectly????

Lagpressure said it's distance travelled by the clubhead in feet,not TIME!!!!!

Dap

OK. I didn’t read all 79 pages. Bio said at 22 Feb 21:23 that it was time increments.

The problem is the line drawing – but it looks to me that the data points are at unit increments on the x-axis. The line between the data points is an interpolation.

I’ll bow to your golf knowledge, but I can read graphs. Don’t see the conflict here.

ShortsTuff out.

:-)

Well I am not going to say much more.

You have the client thinking the x-axis is distance travelled and the tester now saying it’s time increments.Hardly professional.

Dap,
Yeah but Lag was using the graph to prove a point for something else.
Can you see why we don’t post data up here it gets misinterpreted.
All this graph indicates is linear speed, we have other graphs which indicate compression etc and club dynamics.
This graph won’t tell u how long the ball was on the face, that isn’t what the graph is designed for, it’s only measuring linear speed.

These graphs aren’t designed to be understood by the average bear, they are complicated and unless your trained in biomechanics and human body motion and then trained how to interpret the graphs you won’t fully undertsand how to read them. Although this one is simple.

Dap I agree with at most the ball stays on the face for about 3/4 of a inch, Where the hell 5 inches came from has me confused? they certainly aren’t my words.

X axis is time, 2,4 ,6 is each frame and the tics between is in 1/60th of a second..
It’s a simple graph tell us linear speed that’s it. One of many graphs we have on clubdynamics,

No I never had lag believing this at all, he miss used my graph to explain something else, He knew what is meant, but he used our graph to prove something else. So take that up with Lag. And ask him why he did.

Bio,

The 5 inches was derived after lag said the x-axis indicates clubhead travel in feet.Thats what we used to interpret the graph.

He wanted to prove that the clubhead can accelerate well after impact.

Dap,
Thanks dap
No this graph doesn’t indicate that all, as I said this only indicate linear speed.
The black respresent impact, when the ball meets the face not seperation and this is why lag’s data indicates continous acceleration but the ball hadn’t left the face yet.
But Bear in mind 1/60th of a second later, not frames or inches.

Bio,

RT1,
I'm not going to provide a clients information to you, this is confidential information between the client and us.
Why would I need plummers data for? their pupils tells us the story, the pupils data is what is important.

As I said mechanically stack and tilt can do the job, but as an effective movement pattern isn't very effective. And have high potential injury.
There's mechanics and biomechanics (movement patterns)
I've seen guys with great mechanics but can't hit it to save themselves, it was movement pattern issues, fix the movement patterns they can play.
I've seen great kinetic links but poor mechanics so they need to be sent off to Darty to get fixed.

Only one Tour , 10 other professional victories. I am not asking for clients info. Why don’t you share with us exactly how s/t will make someone prone to injury compared to another pattern. Golf in general is not easy on the body, but proper technique( on plane , balance, etc ) will reduce stress on the body. Same as in any other sport.

Another reason you need Plummer/Bennet model is that have the exact angles and movement sequence you would need to intelligently make a statement about it. Maybe, or should I say it is likely that whoever you are studying is far from the model they are prescribing to follow.

Describe your difference in mechanics and movement patterns please.

I wish I had a nickel for every guy I heard who said they could have won a major if the would have woke up on the right side of the bed that day..You figure it out !!

Learn to spell..you are an intelligent guy !!

Learn to spell..you are an intelligent guy !!

rt1

Spelling is extraneous – no points scored!

Bio, evidence as to whether the heavy hit is a myth and whether one can accelerate the clubhead through impact is always being sought.

Lag posted his graph supposedly showing that one can accelerate through impact. His graph was different to the other zenolink graphs I’ve seen which showed deceleration into impact so aroused my interest.

I initially worked out that the x-axis must be in units of 1/30 seconds or NTSC frames and asked what the sudden dip was due to. Lag said it was the instant transfer of energy to the ball. I disputed this mentioning this was 18 inches after impact. I was then told the x-axis was not in time but in feet and that the ball was on the clubhead for only 5 inches. Still, WTF?

Now at least you have essentially confirmed the x-axis is in 1/30s frames. You may get mad that your graphs are published and people interpret them incorrectly but this is the exact reason no reputable scientist creates incomplete graphs to start with. Similar incomplete graphs are publicly viewable by anyone on Welch’s site too so please don’t claim the graph shouldn’t have been posted. It was your client that didn’t understand his own graph that led to the confusion. Maybe he wasn’t supposed to understand it?

I’d like to get an analysis done Bio next time I’m in Melbourne, but I need to respect your methods. Maybe you’re happy just dealing with the pro golfers who are bamboozled by this technology and just believe it, but then I ask why you hang out here?

The label on snake oil doesn’t list its ingredients and that’s how you’re coming across to me, and I highly suspect dap and possibly others too. Remember how passionate you were about the k-vest at one stage? And later relating how inaccurate it was? Make us believers Bio.

You may wish to keep correct body sequencing secret – fine, but all you’re doing is criticising Jim’s proven methods and Jeff’s feasible arguments without explaining ‘why’, leaving us who are trying to work things out in ‘guided limbo’. Now you’re criticising S&T with ‘cold hard facts’ by saying it’s got great potential for injury. A potential fact? Has it injured yet or not? When it undisputedly does, then it’s a cold hard fact.

I only posted the graph to show that it is possible to accelerate the clubhead all the way to the ball, I don’t believe I ever said that I was capable of accelerating the clubhead after the ball had left the clubhead, I don’t think anyone can do that, Mike Austin apparently claimed to have been able to do it.. I don’t know..

Many have bought forth the idea that you cannot accelerate the clubhead into impact.. they believe that once inertia takes over at P3, acceleration peaks, and velocity goes flat, and that the ball can then only anticipate a non accelerating velocity hit… a momentum strike

p = mv

Respected people like Tom Wishon have come out and said that a “force” hit is not what happens in a golf swing.

f = ma

( a = acceleration v = velocity p = momentum)

The point of the graph is to show that it is possible to bring an accelerating clubhead all the way down to impact and that we should as HITTERS strive to do so just as Homer talks about all over Chapter 2.

Wishon is correct if he is referring to swingers with dead hands..
but don’t throw me into that category, nor all the superior ball strikers of the past that “tear at it” with their hands at the bottom.

It was clear about the MPH on the Y axis, the X axis appeared to be feet when I saw numbers like 12 or 14 describing the Y axis..

A false assumption… but either way, acceleration can be measured across distance or time… so my point would still have been the same, but clearly this created some confusion here, and I apologize to Bio for adding confusion where confusion should not exist..

I can believe someone can accelerate all the way to the ball – I’m sure that vid you posted ages ago of you with the whippy shaft definitely would show that.

But can we believe this graph? The straight line sections we see all through the graph suggests clubhead speed was only measured every unit (1, 2, 3… 14, 15, 16…) and interpolated (ie guessed) between, so the red line might indeed be you, just hidden by the lack of resolution in testing. Are you still sure the graph indicates you accelerated all the way to the ball?

Now it’s starting to look similar to the zenolink graph on Chris’ site:

Lag,

You keep talking about increasing POST impact velocity.If velocity is greater post impact then you are still accelerating.Same thing.

Are you now saying you meant it’s a feel concept and not whats really happening?I have been saying that all along.

Nobody has ever said you cannot hit the ball with the clubhead still accelerating.We are saying the ball is hit no harder whether the clubhead is accelerating or deccelerating if the velocity is the same.

My point is that guys like Wishon are saying that peak speed happens way back toward P3 in the golf swing…
and that a pre stressed shaft is not what happens.. what I am saying is, it can happen.. but you have to HIT by way of 2-M-3 to do it.. not swing..

Listening to such an expert, that says you can’t accelerate to impact, therefore you should not waste your time trying is putting out very bad information..

I also disagree with Wishon that golfers should be club fit to their poor golf swings, regardless how upright their hands come into the ball.. why? it traps them there like flypaper, and kills any chance for improving their golf swing.

clubhead acceleration to the ball is good,
pre stressed shaft flex is good
increasing mass to ones capacity is good
minimizing post impact deceleration is good

this is all backed by Homer all over TGM..
Homer loved hitters..

I love them too, and I will grow them in my garden…

Minimising post impact decceleration is good for what?Was he talking about real or feel?

Did Homer elaborate?

We are saying the ball is hit no harder whether the clubhead is accelerating or deccelerating if the velocity is the same.

This is not correct..

Why would Homer say? “maximum ball speed would be achieved by zero deceleration”

I really have no idea what you are trying to get across…
Light clubs can increase velocity, but you lose mass..

f = ma

or

p = mv

you’re disagreeing with Newton?

if we decrease “a or v” you lose “f or p”

what are you saying?

dap,

the more force or the more momentum is applied to the ball, the more it is compressed… the ball, the ball compressed..

that doesn’t make sense?

Newton?
Homer?

what is it you are having a problem with?

can you give a non golf example?

I toss you a volley ball or a bowling ball, no difference to you?

You lay on the ground… I am on a ladder.. I give you a choice…
I have two balls, a volleyball and a bowling ball… I am going to drop one on your chest with your hands tied behind your back.. you don’t think there is a difference?

Steb,

who’s graph is the second one?
I never posted that..

Who’s disagreeing with Newton.

I’m disagreeing with your application of Newtons Laws.

You can study Newton all you want but not many people get 100% on their exam.

Zero deceleration is the same as acceleration.

I cannot argue anything here if Homer is seen as the same as Newton writing the book.If I disagree with Homer,then I am disagreeing with Newton.Excellent logic.

Homer got this wrong.Why is that so hard to believe?

dap,

can you give a non golf example of how acceleration has no effect on compression?

trying to understand…

Steb,

who's graph is the second one?
I never posted that..

Zero deceleration is the same as acceleration.

really?

doesn’t zero times anything equal zero?

5×0 =

1284×0 =

0 right?

I would assume the zero deceleration means zero acceleration either positive or negative.. which would be constant… no change in velocity..

I don’t see a lot of sense in arguing over these kind of terminologies..

The thing you seem to be presenting here is that the golf ball only reacts to initial clubhead velocity, and not post impact clubhead velocity..

That is what you are saying right?

example…

A clubhead 1 foot prior to impact is traveling 100 mph… then after impact it is traveling 90 mph

you are saying that if…

A clubhead 1 foot prior to impact is traveling 100 mph… then after impact it is traveling 60 mph…....... this is the same thing?

This is what Jeffman was saying too…

is this what you are saying?

the ball will be compressed the same? travel the same distance?
Go just as straight?

How about on off center hits? the same? no difference?

is this what you are saying?