Let's talk Lag's Golf Machine (pages 80-89)
lagpressure
Feb 23 2009 17:10
Page 80

Steb,

what is this second graph?

just some hacker?

Tiger Woods?

who?

just an average Joe?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Loren
Feb 23 2009 17:37
Page 80

Minimising post impact decceleration is good for what?Was he talking about real or feel?

Did Homer elaborate?

Homer said ”..the ball acquires 70% of the clubhead approach speed but 100% of the clubhead separation speed, so there must be resistance to deceleration. Zero deceleration would give maximum ball speed.”
The 70% is the coefficient of restitution, which is “80% for the better balls but drops below 70% at high speeds. Of course, Compression leakage will lower the percentage.”

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

Steb
Feb 23 2009 17:41
Page 80

Steb,

what is this second graph?

just some hacker?

Tiger Woods?

who?

just an average Joe?

lol – it doesn’t say if it’s of a hacker or a pro. I had a link to the full report in my last post.

lagpressure
Feb 23 2009 17:52
Page 80

what is it you’re still disputing?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

dap
Feb 23 2009 18:03
Page 80

Zero deceleration is the same as acceleration.

really?

doesn't zero times anything equal zero?

5ˆó0 =

1284ˆó0 =

0 right?

I would assume the zero deceleration means zero acceleration either positive or negative.. which would be constant… no change in velocity..

I don't see a lot of sense in arguing over these kind of terminologies..

The thing you seem to be presenting here is that the golf ball only reacts to initial clubhead velocity, and not post impact clubhead velocity..

That is what you are saying right?

example…

A clubhead 1 foot prior to impact is traveling 100 mph… then after impact it is traveling 90 mph

you are saying that if…

A clubhead 1 foot prior to impact is traveling 100 mph… then after impact it is traveling 60 mph…….... this is the same thing?

This is what Jeffman was saying too…

is this what you are saying?

the ball will be compressed the same? travel the same distance?
Go just as straight?

How about on off center hits? the same? no difference?

is this what you are saying?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

The term deceleration is not used in physics very much.It’s either positive or negative acceleration to avoid confusion.I have never heard of the term zero deceleration.

If Homer really did mean zero acceleration will result in the highest ball speed,then he is correct as this means maximum velocity has been reached.This also is at odds with your idea that the clubhead should still be positive accelerating.So in actual fact,it’s you who is disagreeing with Homer.

So what is sustaining the line of compression all about?If maximum ball speed is achieved by a zero accelerating clubhead,what is the point of STLOC?You already have maximum ball speed….are you saying you can beat maximum by resisting deceleration?

The example you have given is too vague.Impact velocity is the only consideration,not 1 foot before impact.What happens after impact won’t make any difference to compression.Jeffman was right.

I am in no way saying that an accelerating clubhead at impact is not a “better” way to strike a ball.But you won’t hit the ball further,if anything you are sacrificing distance.You may very well have more consistency for reasons yet to be determined.

dap
Feb 23 2009 18:19
Page 80

Minimising post impact decceleration is good for what?Was he talking about real or feel?

Did Homer elaborate?

Homer said ”..the ball acquires 70% of the clubhead approach speed but 100% of the clubhead separation speed, so there must be resistance to deceleration. Zero deceleration would give maximum ball speed.”
The 70% is the coefficient of restitution, which is ’Äú80% for the better balls but drops below 70% at high speeds. Of course, Compression leakage will lower the percentage.”

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

That is very vague.What exactly is “approach speed”?

I will assume he meant impact speed….how the heck can the ball be moving 30% slower than the clubhead??

What does the ball “aquiring 100% of clubhead separation speed mean”?

I will assume that he means the ball speed is the same as the clubhead speed at the moment it leaves the clubface.

That’s going to be a very,very low ball speed for the given clubhead speed.

Steb
Feb 23 2009 18:21
Page 80

what is it you're still disputing?

Who, me or dap?

If me, I’m not disputing, rather asking if you believe your graph indicates you are accelerating into impact given that you appear to have been sampled at only 30 times per second and had your dots connected with a straight line. Hopefully Bio can confirm that. The other graph I posted is sampled at a higher rate, hence is noticably smoother with no straight line guesses.

In the 1/30th second between the samples, you could have peaked anywhere from half a foot before impact to a foot after – who knows from an interpolated graph. There are many red lines I can draw between 14 and 15.

Loren
Feb 23 2009 18:33
Page 80

Homer sez: ”...clubhead approaching impact at 100mph, slows to 80mph at separation. The ball leaves at about 70mph. To do this the ball must be traveling 150mph. ... If the clubhead speed at separation is 40mph, the ball is only traveling 110mph.”

(Homer didn’t have an editor, and it shows. That literally says the ball has to be traveling 150 in order to leave at 70.)

Deceleration is being used as the common layman’s term for losing velocity, as in driving a car. Press on the accelerator to accelerate, let off it to decelerate.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

dap
Feb 23 2009 18:55
Page 80

Homer sez: ”…clubhead approaching impact at 100mph, slows to 80mph at separation. The ball leaves at about 70mph. To do this the ball must be traveling 150mph. ... If the clubhead speed at separation is 40mph, the ball is only traveling 110mph.”

(Homer didn't have an editor, and it shows.)

Therefore, deceleration is being used as the common layman's term for losing velocity, as in driving a car.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

I am totally and utterly confused.

Clubhead approaching impact at 100mph but slows to 80mph at separation.Got it.

“The ball leaves at about 70mph”.Don’t get it.Leaves what and where at 70mph?

“To do this the ball must be travelling at 150mph”. ???

If anybody understands all this,please explain.

Steb
Feb 23 2009 19:13
Page 80

I think what Homer said is quite understandable and possibly scientifically correct. The question is can anything be done to alter the clubhead speed at separation.

Alistair Cochran says no, and proved it via experiment.
Jack Kuykendall says no
Brian Manzella says no
Theodore Jorgensen says no
Dave Tutelman says no
Golf robots with flexible wrists versus robots with powered wrists say no.

Am I convinced? No – because my flushed drive is probably 30 – 40 yards shorter than my swing speed would dictate.

Steb
Feb 23 2009 19:14
Page 80

Dap, clubhead speed at separation = 80mph.

Ball leaves clubhead at 70mph relative to the moving clubhead, which means it is 150mph relative to a stationary object.

lagpressure
Feb 23 2009 20:09
Page 80

Let’s not get carried away with brainiac definitions of college physics manuals.

I am simply saying this…

You’ll have a much better chance of hitting the ball straight, solid, with reliable distance control if you bring into impact an accelerating clubhead.

You’ll do even better, if when you hit the ball, your hands, arms, and body don’t just limply collapse, but instead drive THROUGH THE BALL and give maximum firmness and rigidness to the violent forces of impact that want to break you down at every joint.

Therefore, ACCELERATE WITH ALL YOU HAVE!

Homer agrees…

Hogan agrees…

Moe agrees…

I agree…

Now if you want to disagree, I have no problem.. you can slap at it all you want, and keep wondering why you can’t seem to go out and consistently strike the ball like a tour pro.

I’m not any amazing athlete, I just have my accumulators lined up like a 5 stage rocket… bang-bang-bang-bang-bang

anyone can learn how to do this…

but if you think like a velocity junkie instead of an acceleration technician….your selling yourself short.

If your into TGM read 2-C-0 read 2-E and especially 2-M-3
read it until you get it…

If you despise TGM, then read Hogan’s 5 Lessons.. “The second Part of the Swing” lesson #4…

“The clubhead reaches maximum speed just beyond impact, not at impact”.

Do yourself a favor, don’t believe me, but do believe Hogan… and if you want to take issue with Hogan, the greatest striker of all time,
then at least read between the lines, and try to understand what he is trying to say.. maybe he’s giving you a real mystical secret here?

If none of that works… you can always keep slappin..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

dap
Feb 23 2009 20:12
Page 80

Ok,got it…thanks Steb.

So Homer is really saying slowing down the rate of negative acceleration will result in more ball speed.This is his principle of STLOC.

He never said maintain or increase acceleration which of course is impossible.

Homer is still wrong.There is nothing the golfer can do to minimise the rate of negative acceleration due to the ball being on the clubface only 0.005 seconds.The clubhead has only travelled 0.75 inch.

His example of the separation clubhead speed varying from 40mph to 80mph from 100mph approach speed is laughable.I doubt there will be any difference in the separation head speed,no matter what you do through impact.

dap
Feb 23 2009 20:22
Page 80

lag,

Nobody is disagreeing that one should not bring an accelerating clubhead into impact.It might well be a better way to strike the ball.I would rather be on the side of accelerating than decelerating as nobody is good enough to time the ball perfectly with zero acceleration every time.It is a more forgiving way to play the game.

But if the clubhead is still accelerating at impact,you are leaving some speed on the table.

Bio
Feb 23 2009 20:29
Page 80

I can believe someone can accelerate all the way to the ball – I'm sure that vid you posted ages ago of you with the whippy shaft definitely would show that.

But can we believe this graph? The straight line sections we see all through the graph suggests clubhead speed was only measured every unit (1, 2, 3… 14, 15, 16…) and interpolated (ie guessed) between, so the red line might indeed be you, just hidden by the lack of resolution in testing. Are you still sure the graph indicates you accelerated all the way to the ball?

Now it's starting to look similar to the zenolink graph on Chris' site:

Steb,
This is my exact point here, see there you go assuming it’s been interpolated, if you knew how to read the graph, you would understand there’s no interpolated data their.
This is what we call Buzz words you pick stuff which you don’t fully understand pick the buzz words they make assumption on them.
You need to know the full story to understand the graph, not just buzz words.

What so you expect me to give information out for free. Sorry not going to. People who pay money to come to seminars and learn would it be fair to them no.
What is about golf you all believe information and knowledge should be given out for free. To gain knowledge and information in other fields you have to pay.

Now I laught, Dap on par with you here, you are all trying to apply physics to club head speed, homer was purely on talking about mechanical physics he never took into consideration human motion physics, You have to apply both to work it out.

Steb who are you in this world to me that i have to convince.
Take it or leave I’m not twisting your arms.
The whole thing is unless you study biomechanics and human body motion even if I explain the data you won’t have a full understanding , all you will have is buzz words that’s it.
Also there is a practical and theory side.

And where the hell did you get 1/30th of a second from, ah no

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

lagpressure
Feb 23 2009 20:43
Page 80

Steb,

These guys you named are all swingers aren’t they? Dead hand guys, so they are absolutely correct..

These are not pivot driven hitters like Hogan.. that just tear it apart with their hands through impact…

This is a very strange and bizarre concept for swingers, completely opposite from what they have learned from their mentors.

Hogan doesn’t say “I wish I had three right hands” because he is feeling like he is dragging soggy spaghetti through impact. Snead said the same thing.. I’m saying the same thing..

If you want to be a successful hitter you have to get this…

If you want to swing, then listen to Manzella or those swinging guys..

But if you want to master swinging, then swing like Moe…

Get rid of that equal-angular- parallel plane- spiral stuff though impact…

I used to swing like that, I know exactly what Couples was feeling on 18 at Riviera today when he fanned that shot into the right trees.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Bio
Feb 23 2009 20:46
Page 80

Rt1,
I explained in the stack and tilt thread and explain hear earlier.
the thing is as I said, unless you fully understood body motion and movents patterns, you won’t understand fully ,so your not going to grasp nor agree anyway, so what is the point in wasting my time.
If you couldn’t grasp and accept what I have already elaborated and you can’t grasp from that information you won’t grasp it if I go into detail.

Go right ahead and Stack and tilt, if you like that’s your choice.
Go see your physio I’m sure he can explain why stack and tilt creates injuries, it’s not rocket science to see why.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

darthvader
Feb 23 2009 20:47
Page 80

I can understand why Dr Jeff Mann had trouble understanding the genius level of scientist/mathamaticians running loose .

KOC
Feb 23 2009 21:02
Page 80

2-E if you have the book….

I am not a science student, but I can related it to nowadays term: Smash Factor or a lil’t bit older term: Speed Ratio.

Ideal figure is 1.5…but trackman’s realistic data is 1.494.

Homer was not wrong or related to don’t have an editor….He stated the Clubhead approaching Impact at 100 MPH….the ball must be travelling 150 MPH.

Homer was wrong…trackman’s realistic data is 1.494….wait, if Homer had a trackman at his era or he was alive, it might change to “the ball must be travelling 149.4 MPH.” ....but….heck, is that a difference to me!

Homer further stated “If the Clubhead speed at separation is 40 MPH, the ball can only travel 110 MPH under this law.” i.e. a smash factor or speed ration of only 1.1….

hehe….just guess work from an art student…

iseekgolfguru
Feb 23 2009 21:28
Page 80

Again good input KOC.

Funny that CORs have a lot to do with these figures.

Dap is again showing a lack of ability to paradigm shift. These arguments are as old as the hills and even the heavy duty physics boffins in other forums have agreed this one.

I have just spent some time doing Jury Duty with major crash scene CSI types going through the same deal. This conversation has been done to death on previous forum posts.

TheDart
Feb 23 2009 21:35
Page 80

How lovely. All this knowledge leaking out to the ordinary man.

He won’t stay ordinary very long.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

AddingtonArnie
Feb 23 2009 21:51
Page 80

Steb,

These guys you named are all swingers aren't they? Dead hand guys, so they are absolutely correct..

These are not pivot driven hitters like Hogan.. that just tear it apart with their hands through impact…

This is a very strange and bizarre concept for swingers, completely opposite from what they have learned from their mentors.

Hogan doesn't say ’ÄúI wish I had three right hands” because he is feeling like he is dragging soggy spaghetti through impact. Snead said the same thing.. I'm saying the same thing..

If you want to be a successful hitter you have to get this…

If you want to swing, then listen to Manzella or those swinging guys..

But if you want to master swinging, then swing like Moe…

Get rid of that equal-angular- parallel plane- spiral stuff though impact…

I used to swing like that, I know exactly what Couples was feeling on 18 at Riviera today when he fanned that shot into the right trees.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

I know which side of the fence Tommy Armour would have been on lol!

Steb
Feb 23 2009 22:35
Page 80

I’ve told you Bio who I am to convince but I’ll repeat. I am someone who is interested in getting a paid analysis done in the future and is deciding whether or not your system has merit. If my money bought lag’s graph and was told there was no interpolation, the dead straight line sections and abrupt changes would have me questioning my mother if she’s ever made love to a robot.

20 year-experienced engineers don’t have buzz words Bio.

So you have the option of my ignoring my concerns, plus everyone who finds this thread upon googling zenolink or taking the opportunity convince those interested and indirectly promote yourself.

No one wants you to reveal your secrets, but this is a discussion forum and we’re here discussing whether acceleration through impact truly exists beyond the intention. If you have nothing to add then keep away or politely say it’s confidential instead of attempting to belittle everybody who is either trying to understand or provide their real years of wisdom.

Steb
Feb 23 2009 23:01
Page 80

Steb,

These guys you named are all swingers aren't they? Dead hand guys, so they are absolutely correct..

These are not pivot driven hitters like Hogan.. that just tear it apart with their hands through impact…

This is a very strange and bizarre concept for swingers, completely opposite from what they have learned from their mentors.

Hogan doesn't say ’ÄúI wish I had three right hands” because he is feeling like he is dragging soggy spaghetti through impact. Snead said the same thing.. I'm saying the same thing..

If you want to be a successful hitter you have to get this…

If you want to swing, then listen to Manzella or those swinging guys..

But if you want to master swinging, then swing like Moe…

Get rid of that equal-angular- parallel plane- spiral stuff though impact…

I used to swing like that, I know exactly what Couples was feeling on 18 at Riviera today when he fanned that shot into the right trees.

Apart from Manzella, they are all golf scientists which is also signficant. You see the problem in learning the golf swing when you have a technical background is the contradiction between what great players say, what scientists say, and what one personally deduces. You can’t ignore things that don’t add up. It just saps confidence from your swing.

Great players don’t necessarily explain well to all or even any personality types and sometimes don’t get that feelings are results, not methods. Scientists are often wrong and miss the point. Bringing them together in discussion is the only solution that hopefully means something to everyone.

Saying to trust Homer or Hogan unfortunately isn’t an option for technical types – it has to make sense first. It’s something that can’t be fought. It would be nice to be blessed with no wish for deeper understanding but that’s just not something one can decide. I prefer to listen to Homer and Hogan because they more often make sense—that’s why I read this thread.

TheDart
Feb 23 2009 23:09
Page 80

Streb.

Keep talking. Theory to practice. Very simple.

Hit the ball in the hole with a stick that is bent and lofted. A few not so obvious problems to zero in on, but only a few.

Miss one and it becomes a conundrum.

There can be absolutly no mystery. Just correct + more and more precision.

Bio has a nice way to move the body which is measurable but simple. As usual.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

darthvader
Feb 23 2009 23:19
Page 81

Steb,

These guys you named are all swingers aren't they? Dead hand guys, so they are absolutely correct..

These are not pivot driven hitters like Hogan.. that just tear it apart with their hands through impact…

This is a very strange and bizarre concept for swingers, completely opposite from what they have learned from their mentors.

Hogan doesn't say ’ÄúI wish I had three right hands” because he is feeling like he is dragging soggy spaghetti through impact. Snead said the same thing.. I'm saying the same thing..

If you want to be a successful hitter you have to get this…

If you want to swing, then listen to Manzella or those swinging guys..

But if you want to master swinging, then swing like Moe…

Get rid of that equal-angular- parallel plane- spiral stuff though impact…

I used to swing like that, I know exactly what Couples was feeling on 18 at Riviera today when he fanned that shot into the right trees.

Apart from Manzella, they are all golf scientists which is also signficant. You see the problem in learning the golf swing when you have a technical background is the contradiction between what great players say, what scientists say, and what one personally deduces. You can't ignore things that don't add up. It just saps confidence from your swing.

Great players don't necessarily explain well to all or even any personality types and sometimes don't get that feelings are results, not methods. Scientists are often wrong and miss the point. Bringing them together in discussion is the only solution that hopefully means something to everyone.

Saying to trust Homer or Hogan unfortunately isn't an option for technical types – it has to make sense first. It's something that can't be fought. It would be nice to be blessed with no wish for deeper understanding but that's just not something one can decide. I prefer to listen to Homer and Hogan because they more often make sense’Äîthat's why I read this thread.

Can you direct me to where Ben Hogan wrote anything in this thread.
Steb you seem like a smart guy. Do you honestly think that Hogan fits into the pigeon hole that Lagpressure puts him in?
Hogan releases down and out . Its his pivot/tailbone release/ over his left ankle job /supinating left wrist that makes it go left on the arc visually

Junior
Feb 23 2009 23:21
Page 81

Okay I have just spent time reading from the time Lag posted the graph… Naughty naughty Lag hahaha… you know you shouldnt have done that, all data is confidential and the property of Welch technologies ;)

I have to come to the defence of Bio who is someone I truly respect and I know has the knowledge to take the game of golf from an unscientific guessing game of chinese whispers to something that can be measured and illustrated as to what is necessary. There is just so much instruction that is based on feelings and as we all should know these are merely the perceptions on an individual and are completely laughable to think that they will universally hold from person to person.

Body motion has been utilised in many sports successfully for ages now, golf is so far behind scientifically in terms of physical motion it is not funny I commend people like Bio and Chris Welch who are actually trying to bring the game into modern times. It will be an uphill fight for many years to come as golfers are a group who are so reliant on traditions and appear frightened to actually get updated on technology that is available to us.

Okay a few points. The graph!!! For god sake guys it is an X component graph. Meaning it only takes into account the X (horizontal) component of motion. Last time I checked we were actually 3 dimensional and performed in X, Y and Z components in space. To try and find “answers” in one graph that illustrates only one component of motion is absolutely ridiculous! As has already been said the y axis is clubhead speed (only in the X dimension), the x axis is time taken in 1/60th of a second increments – ie pretty accurate and better than anything we have had available to us previously!

Now to some of the more ridiculous comments made on here:

BPS:

Are you for real or what? Measuring with a ruler and saying that this is accurate? Yeah maybe if we were all 2D flat characters. Can you tell us the depth measurements from side on photography? Didnt think so. Last time I checked any sporting motion comprised of 3 dimensions X, Y and Z, just measuring X and Y components hardly gives us accurate results now does it? Oops where did that 3rd component of motion go or would you just like all of us to ignore it?

As far as respect goes mate, same goes to you. Please respect someone who has a far greater knowledge than you will ever have. Iseek is lucky to have guys like Bio, Lag, Dart et al. Put the ruler away, it doesnt and cannot work in something that is performed in 3 dimensions or did you miss that section of geometry?

RT1:

Find it funny that you discuss being a ‘master of compression’ and throwing down comments to Bio in regards to his level of ball striking. Bio is one of the freakiest ball strikers I have ever seen and I have witnessed many also. Considering that the man has so many physical limitations just the fact that he could actually hit a ball would be remarkable enough, but the quality of his ball striking with these limitations? Unbelievable. The sadest thing for me is Bio was cut down in the beginning of his prime, so none of us will ever know how truly gifted he could have been. Let me tell you he is scary good now, I shudder to think how good he was fully fit!

Speaking of “was”, when I “was” a tour pro… RT1 let it go, its in the past, this makes you a has been. At least Bio is actually doing something with his life now rather than living off the memories of his past glories. Stack and Tilt will be just another passing fad. TGM has survived the test of time, let’s see how long S & T lasts… Funny that there was “Natural Golf”, “X factor” and “The Golf Swing of the Future” amongst many others which once were the flavours of the month and are now almost non existant. Body motion and the science of body motion has already been around in many sports for decades now, it has and will continue to stand the test of time, it is the foundation of human movement. S & T is tragic for the back, the premise is good the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Sorry another person here who thinks it is a bunch of BS!

Steb:

“I'd like to get an analysis done Bio next time I'm in Melbourne, but I need to respect your methods. Maybe you're happy just dealing with the pro golfers who are bamboozled by this technology and just believe it, but then I ask why you hang out here?

The label on snake oil doesn't list its ingredients and that's how you're coming across to me, and I highly suspect dap and possibly others too. Remember how passionate you were about the k-vest at one stage? And later relating how inaccurate it was? Make us believers Bio.”

You’d do well to maybe listen mate. The reason the “secrets” are not being revealed is that Chris Welch has had his work stolen before and turned upside down by absolute morons. Hence why this time it is secret until you get with the program and pay like the rest of us have. Yes mate, even tour players have to pay for their screenings and this information!

Steb, bio is too nice to say it, but I am sure he is not losing any sleep at night whether you decide to join the program or not. For those of us that have, we know how good it is and how beneficial it has been to our games. Bio will not lose out of your decision mate, you will. Pay your money, get a screening and start working on the PST (progressive skills training!).

I was one of the first people in Australia who got themselves screened as I trust Bio implicitly. As far as your comments re K-Vest, find out the truth mate, before you shoot your mouth off. Chris Welch realised that the metrics on K-Vest were incorrect and tried to pull it from production, K-vest was knowingly released by the company with these incorrect metrics. Bio was smart enough to recognise also that the metrics were wrong and had the only functional K-Vest in Australia because he changed them. I know, I trained on it. Bio told Chris that the metrics were wrong and Chris was so impressed that he had found this of his own accord that they united. Bio was back doored by the Golf Science centre and K-Vest Australia. I personally know all involved and let me tell you, they knowingly continue to preach a product that is just so flawed. Bio was made a scapegoat by these people, a decision they are already regretting. So before you shoot your mouth off mate, try getting the actual facts.

We have something very special on our hands here. I know I have put 40-50 metres on my drives performing PST and I am still at the level one drills. The sky is the limit with this science, it is not easy to learn and do but if you commit to it and diligently work at it, the results are phenomenal. I broke my long drive record 2 weeks ago hitting a drive of 392 metres in a pro am – it was measured. Sad thing was I hit it high and slightly in the toe and I had the mark to prove it.

Sometimes you just have to trust people mate and experience things for yourself. You have seen one graph on here. I can tell you with a screening you get 10 graphs encompassing areas such as club dynamics, stability analysis, muscular loading analysis, kinetic link analysis and a performance profile. On top of that you receive a personalised training program with progressive skills training drills designed purely for what your golf swing needs. Ah for the money, I think Bio and Chris are being very generous, they should charge 5-10 times more than they do.

It is not Bio’s job to prove it to you, there are enough of us actually doing it that are proving it for him and Chris. Either become part of it or wonder about it.

Sorry for the long ass post but something needed to be said by someone who has actually experienced it!

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Steb
Feb 24 2009 00:13
Page 81

I always research my facts before shooting my mouth off AB. A simple search for k-vest here at ISG will reveal to you what I said is correct – I confirmed my memories before posting.

Like Bio, you believe people expect him to reveal his secrets. I certainly don’t. I’m more than happy with a ‘I can’t discuss’. But it’s not illegal for us to discuss and try and understand it. If Bio wants to add value, then add value. If he wants to dismiss every poster here he doesn’t agree with ‘you don’t know body motion’ then he will be asked to explain. The guy claiming he has a black belt doesn’t just walk casually out of the pub.

But thanks for your impressions AB – that’s about all I can go on at this stage.

Apologies to Lag and other thread followers for getting caught up in the recurring Bio saga. Back to TGM.

Junior
Feb 24 2009 00:43
Page 81

In all fairness steb, Lag put Bio in a difficult position by posting something that should never have been posted on here and then mashing the data with his explanations. Bio was only trying to clear it up. You must be aware that a lot of what is written on here by so called “experts” is such BS it is not funny.

I also take it from your last comment that you wont be getting screened?

And no you didnt research your comments obviously as you couldnt have made the statement you did regarding Bio’s change from K-vest as it has never been stated on here truthfully until I told you just now.

Like I just said to Bio, he has nothing to prove to you guys, the rest of us will do the proving for him!

Back to TGM hey, realise steb that mechanics and body motion are two different playgrounds, you cant possibly have performance with out both being optimally trained. Focus on one or the other and you will only ever get 50% of the equation.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 01:18
Page 81

BIO,

Rt1,
I explained in the stack and tilt thread and explain hear earlier.
the thing is as I said, unless you fully understood body motion and movents patterns, you won't understand fully ,so your not going to grasp nor agree anyway, so what is the point in wasting my time.
If you couldn't grasp and accept what I have already elaborated and you can't grasp from that information you won't grasp it if I go into detail.
Go right ahead and Stack and tilt, if you like that's your choice.
Go see your physio I'm sure he can explain why stack and tilt creates injuries, it's not rocket science to see why.

Bio,

Thanks for proving my point that you have no data explaining what and where you received the model pattern of s/t/. I can grasp any concept or explaination you put forth here. People or not all idiots as you assume. I have been playing Professionally since 1986 and have never had an injury with this pattern, but did when I had more separation of shoulders and hips( the old load the right side up stuff ). So your theory is lacking credibility, I don’t give s—t what your data says. It proves nothing, and you have given no concrete evidence to dispute anything. Go ahead and say we need to pay to see it..that is a diluted way of stating you have no proof, but if you pay me I will make up something !

Until you have the exact model you can not assume any swing pattern will de disruptive to the body. It is people like you who give very vague info and call it science so everyone will give you credibility.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 01:32
Page 81

Junior,

Speaking of ’Äúwas”, when I ’Äúwas” a tour pro… RT1 let it go, its in the past, this makes you a has been. At least Bio is actually doing something with his life now rather than living off the memories of his past glories.

I am not living off past memories at all!!! I am actively involved in growing the game of golf. And still involved with the game for a living. I am not playing on Tour by choice(personal ) .

I think it is laughable to hear some of the comments by the experts who are intrigued with the great ball strikers and players, they can have all the bio mechanics they want and explain it to death scientifically, but you forget the intangible..human nature. What does it feel like to stand on the 18th hole during a round to make a cut, win a tournament, pay your mortgage? How do you include that in your data? Tell me when you have done that.

Lag can agree with that ..I am sure!!

dap
Feb 24 2009 01:53
Page 81

2-E if you have the book….

I am not a science student, but I can related it to nowadays term: Smash Factor or a lil't bit older term: Speed Ratio.

Ideal figure is 1.5…but trackman's realistic data is 1.494.

Homer was not wrong or related to don't have an editor….He stated the Clubhead approaching Impact at 100 MPH….the ball must be travelling 150 MPH.

Homer was wrong…trackman's realistic data is 1.494….wait, if Homer had a trackman at his era or he was alive, it might change to ’Äúthe ball must be travelling 149.4 MPH.” ….but….heck, is that a difference to me!

Homer further stated ’ÄúIf the Clubhead speed at separation is 40 MPH, the ball can only travel 110 MPH under this law.” i.e. a smash factor or speed ration of only 1.1….

hehe….just guess work from an art student…

Homer was wrong about STLOC.

I notice you post on BM’s site as well.

Why don’t you ask him what he thinks about it?

Anyway,it’s all academic.STLOC is a good feel concept and if it helps people,go right ahead and promote it.

KOC
Feb 24 2009 04:46
Page 81

I don’t need to ask…..I knew that…no imperatives are imperatives, no essentials are essentials, no STLOC; no heavy hit; no hinge pin; might be more no no no regarding the book….in BM’s site.

But a man wrote in FOREWORD of the book: “Thanks, Homer for explaining G.O.L.F. and in doing so, making the job possible to inform the student who must absorb and apply. So-take one component at a time using the sequence in CHAPTER 9 plus the index, and in 24 hours, days, weeks, months or years you will be able to “sustain the line of compression” . . . the lag. . . impact.

Who is the man, his mentor, Ben Doyle! What’s that STLOC mean to Ben Doyle? I think I got a little concept.

lagpressure
Feb 24 2009 07:59
Page 81

Darth,

I often quote Hogan directly here on this thread…

These are his words, right from his book.. as if he was alive today…
He is no longer physically with us, but his words are!

Hogan's 5 Lessons.. ’ÄúThe second Part of the Swing” lesson #4…

’ÄúThe clubhead reaches maximum speed just beyond impact, not at impact.”

Steb and Dap..

Think of it this way…

Whether or not Hogan was speaking absolute science or a feeling,
he is most certainly explaining his intent..

You would do yourselves a great favor in trying to understand his intent.. why is he saying this?

If you go to the practice range, and you know that you have to accelerate the club into impact based on hard scientific data, what would you work on? ACCELERATING THE CLUB!

If you go to the practice range, and you know that you have to accelerate the club into impact based on intent and feeling, what would you work on? ACCELERATING THE CLUB!

You’re going to be working on the same thing either way!

Now if you are simply a dead hand swinger, you will NEVER accelerate the club… you are settling for less than ideal impact dynamics.. you are settling for a “momentum” strike instead of a “force” strike.

if you swing this is your formula

p = mv

if you hit this is your formula

f = ma

if you read Homer’s epic chapter #2 he is all over f = ma
if you read Hogan he is all over f = ma
if you listen to my rantings I am all over f = ma

Snead said it…
Tommy Armour (thank you Arnie for the post here!) said it…

I can assure you if Hogan was a dead hand swinger, he would not have been interested in working on his hands with a rubber ball, strengthening them while in a hospital bed for a year. He would not say, “I wish I had three right hands”... we would say “hit the ball as hard as you can with the right hand” he would not say “also hit the ball as hard as you can with your left hand”... I could go on and on..

If you can figure out why Hogan and so many other great strikers say this, you are well on your way to improving your golf game..

If you deny it, refuse to believe it’s possible, put Hogan nicely into your own little swinger’s dead hand catagory, deny that a golf club can be accelerated all the way to the ball, or deny that the flex of the golf shaft can be maintained from P3 to impact, you will never achieve your golfing potential..

Your choice..

But never would that be my choice…

I have show this forum that I can hold shaft flex to the ball both with high speed still photos, and with video. I have shown that acceleration of the clubhead all the way to the ball is possible with scientific graphs from my own golf swing.

My point here is, if you want to learn to do this yourself, YOU CAN DO IT! I am no amazing athlete, I probably couldn’t do 50 sit ups,
or 30 push ups.. but I have trained my body and my hands to fire my 5 accumulators (yes 5) in proper sequence. That is all it is..

bang-bang-bang-bang-bang

If you want to learn how to do it, it can be learned in 8 months to a year..

I know for a fact that I can teach you how to do it..
Bio can teach you how to do it..
BP can teach you how to do it..
Mac O’Grady can teach you how to do it.

We understand Homer’s 2-M-3, pivot driven hitters..
Not all TGM instructors get it. Many really prefer swinging..

Any squabbling here between the brain trust is only about the best or quickest path to the same mountain top. I really believe this..

As much as Bio and BP argue about less important stuff,
I know for a fact they both understand 2-M-3 HITTING.. I have talked to them both personally off the forum about it. They know like I know, that proper hitting is not just slapping the right arm at the ball without strong pivot support. They both know you have to hit it hard with the hands at the bottom, with an accelerating pivot.. and I am sure Dart would agree to, although we have yet to meet.. I hope we do.

If you want to improve your golf, you have to decide if you want to hit or swing…

We have a great forum here..

I have learned from all these guys.. and we are all available to help anyone here when you’re ready.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 09:49
Page 81

Great post, Lag – here is my take on the “heavy hit” vs “freewheeling” debate. The science seems fairly consistent that clubhead speed is the main factor, although I am leaving room for an alternative explanation.

However – From the standpoint of first person, subjective viewpoint, MOST of my students need to intend and to feel the heavy hit, acceleration of clubhead AND shaft AND hips, Core and shoulder girdle AND hands through impact, even though we know that is not really occuring, except for the clubhead itself in some cases, like Lag’s, where it is accelerating or nearly so at the moment of contact.

Why? Because the Hit Impulse is so hard-wired into our neural networks, that intending to do a heavy hit with a ton of ball compression, forward shaft lean and acceleration of pivot with superconnected upper arms, will ALWAYS reduce – by a lot, for MOST of my students- the Hit Impulse. And that means more distance, accuracy and solidness of contact.

There is a minority category of students – about 10% of the total I work with – who have a severe steering problem with super tight grip pressure. These guys get barely a half a wrist cock on the backswing and then “hold on” and just shove the handle end first at the ball, basically a very extreme version of a punch shot. Very short hitters due to slow clubhead speed. These students do much better with a mental image of freewheeling, full wrist cock on the backswing and a full somewhat early release of the wrist cock with some forearm roll on the downswing. If I asked them to picture forward shaft lean, a heavy hit, etc it would only make their flaw worse.

I believe in active release of wrist cock angles (not right wrist hinge angle) during Release, but only for Spin Style golfers or Swing Style golfers with a late release point, ie late Pivot Thrust. Fast hips/Core require fast “hands” – or wrist cock release and only for golfers who have already eliminated their early Hit Impulse. Even then – the student needs to clearly understand that the wrist cock release dimension is Down and Out, NOT “sideways” or in the horizontal dimension. Releasing wrist cock angles in the horizontal dimension is flipping, instant loss of FLW.

I think this Body Thrust or Body Hitting type of Release is the MOST powerful and accurate way to hit a golf ball as Lag explained in his post. There are various ways to achieve this, ie options that can work in terms of Pivot Thrust trigger timing.

I think it is rather obvious that Homer knew the destructive effects of the Hit Impulse or “throwaway” and his mental picture of STLOC was an antidote to throwaway. So perhaps not objective fact but for sure a great mental picture/intention for most golfers.

As for the clubhead acceleration debate, to my mind it probably does not matter too much from a practical standpoint. I have seen research that says the clubhead is accelerating on a practice swing with a driver past where the ball would have been, and others that show constant velocity at impact with the ball, and others that show slight deceleration just before impact. Like a lot of science, it’s far from conclusive or congruent even. Who cares?

Do we really think when a good player is swinging the club, and you get three different readings: slight deceleration just before impact, slight acceleration at impact, or constant velocity at impact, that the golf ball will react significantly to the difference? I would guess probably not.

But the Intention? You better intend to accelerate with your mind, body, heart, soul and clubhead -even on a 10 yard chip shot!

All I care about is helping my students get better. Does that mean I need to understand science? Absolutely. But teaching is an art AND a science. Sometimes you need to NOT tell a student a true scientific fact to get his subconscious mind to accept a mental picture – like STLOC – that may not be objectively true, so that his body and club will make a more efficient motion. The student just wants to get better at ballstriking and scoring, he really is not so concerned with the science part.

I get one or two students a year who have more golf swing theory knowledge than most teaching pros I know, but they can’t break 90. So the question is – how much is that knowledge really helping them?

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 10:06
Page 81

One last point on the heavy hit debate. There is a “logical” explanation that partly explains why so many good players feel a heavy hit at impact even though science says its not happening, at least as much as some of us think.

We can “see” the blur of impact almost as it is happening, ie external visual channel speed is very high, ie speed of light, photons to retina, processing in visual cortex, ALMOST in real time, ie short time delay to full awareness. Same with auditory, speed of sound, processing in auditory cortex, a bit slower than visual but still close to real time.

Feel or kinesthetic channel is slower processing speed. When you “feel impact” consciously, the clubhead is already well past impact. You can “notice” visually that the blur of impact has already occured and you are now feeling the solid hit sensation in your hands as you look down and see the clubhead blur a little bit past the ball position.The shock wave has to form and move up the shaft into your hands, that takes some time to occur.

So you are “seeing the blur” of impact and “hearing the sound” of impact and “feeling the feel of impact” as a blend of all three sensory channels in a single moment, but that “single moment” is an illusion. You are actually feeling something that has already happened in a microsecond and extending that perception in time to a point past impact quite a ways. Creates the sensation that the clubhead is staying on the ball longer than it is in reality.

In other words, if your conscious mind was truly able to see the reality of impact, you would see the clubhead strike the ball (although as a blur due to high clubhead speed), THEN you would hear the sound of the strike, and THEN you would feel the shock of impact in your hands.

The converse works as well – if you are NOT feeling the clubhead compress the ball for a distinct unit of time – however short – the clubhead has already passed your hands from the wrist joint – flipping – and you are not making a solid strike.

dap
Feb 24 2009 10:19
Page 81

I don't need to ask…..I knew that…no imperatives are imperatives, no essentials are essentials, no STLOC; no heavy hit; no hinge pin; might be more no no no regarding the book….in BM's site.

But a man wrote in FOREWORD of the book: ’ÄúThanks, Homer for explaining G.O.L.F. and in doing so, making the job possible to inform the student who must absorb and apply. So-take one component at a time using the sequence in CHAPTER 9 plus the index, and in 24 hours, days, weeks, months or years you will be able to ’Äúsustain the line of compression” . . . the lag. . . impact.

Who is the man, his mentor, Ben Doyle! What's that STLOC mean to Ben Doyle? I think I got a little concept.

I am not a huge fan of BM so I hope I am not coming across as promoting him here.His ego is his biggest enemy.You either love him or hate him.

Many years ago,he was a very strong supporter of TGM and still is but he now recognises the book has flaws.He still acknowledges TGM and Ben Doyle of course.A champion martial artist must always respect his mentor even though he knows he can beat him in a fight!

I know the book brings you joy and happiness as it does many others,so I can understand the marketing involved.

muntz
Feb 24 2009 10:25
Page 81

But the Intention? You better intend to accelerate with your mind, body, heart, soul and clubhead -even on a 10 yard chip shot!

I think this is a good way of putting it.

Baldly quoting F = ma is misleading as the linear acceleration of the clubhead is relatively small if you are approaching maximum clubhead speed, even if that max is slightly after impact.

From my reading of Homer, the real force we need to be worried about is the force of a fast travelling clubface making solid contact and compressing the ball through impact – the effective transfer of energy into the ball. Because the clubhead is not a free object in motion, the ability of the shaft to support these impact dynamics can’t be trivial. I was amazed by some slow mo shots that Guru took of someone striking a ball, the shaft was wobbling through impact like a piece of boiled spaghetti.

Probably dumb of me to make a post on this thread, I have university physics behind me, but no advanced degree in biomechanical engineering I’m afraid. ;0)

In the end, I can only measure this stuff by whether it works, not with a graph. You can’t hit the ball with an equation, you have to find the feel for you that makes the ball hum and dance. And the work I am doing with Guru is getting me closer and closer to the truth.

Reverse every natural instinct you have and do just the opposite of what you are inclined to do and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing. – BEN HOGAN, POWER GOLF
http://boxhillgolfclub.com.au/

dap
Feb 24 2009 10:41
Page 81

BPGS1,

Nice post.

That short time delay to full awareness is caused by the fact it takes time for brain neurons to travel from hand to brain.

That time is actually longer than the time the ball stays on the clubface.The clubhead is half a meter past impact before it registers in the brain.

It could even be more than half a meter as I have not taken into account the time required for vibrations to travel through the shaft!

I think this explains why it’s so hard to overcome the “hit instinct”.

iseekgolfguru
Feb 24 2009 11:19
Page 81

There are some strange ideas out of New Orleans.

Junior
Feb 24 2009 11:40
Page 81

Junior,

I am not living off past memories at all!!! I am actively involved in growing the game of golf. And still involved with the game for a living. I am not playing on Tour by choice(personal ) .

I think it is laughable to hear some of the comments by the experts who are intrigued with the great ball strikers and players, they can have all the bio mechanics they want and explain it to death scientifically, but you forget the intangible..human nature. What does it feel like to stand on the 18th hole during a round to make a cut, win a tournament, pay your mortgage? How do you include that in your data? Tell me when you have done that.

Lag can agree with that ..I am sure!!

Once again your assumptions are amazing RT1! I too turned pro when I was 21, so yes I certainly know about the pressures of tournament golf. And that is why you train something that you can rely on in the heat of the battle, so you can go into automatic pilot. You and I both know at that level the mental game comes into it seriously.

Not on tour by choice? Couldn’t hack it?

Everyone can improve mate from tour professional down to rank beginner. The moment that you accept your performance as “good enough” you are finished. There is always someone who is prepared to do the hard yards and the work to become the best they can be. The limits of performance are the limitations you place on yourself.

I still compete now in Long Drive as I enjoy pushing myself to the lengths of my performance as a human being! Maybe you might have given up on yourself personally but some of us are prepared to listen and learn to people who are actually experts in their field. I seek advice from sport’s scientists, psychologists, strength and conditioning experts et al. It is a team performance to become the best athlete you possibly can.

Your arrogance is extaordinary, you act like you are the only person (with lag who you always include) that has played in the professional sporting arena. I could throw down just as many questions to you RT1, like when is the last time your technique enabled you to drive the ball 430 yards? Mate data is such a small part of Human Body Motion it is actually the biomechanics of the body motion that these guys excel at. Does stack and tilt teach you to use ground reaction forces to obtain maximal kinetic energy? Does it teach you which parts of your body need to decelerate to increase clubhead acceleration and the correct sequencing to get this job done in the most effective manner?

You might be happy with something that is superficial and looks okay. I personally dont give a stuff what the motion looks like visually, all I care about is that my body motion is performing with efficiency and translating results into the golf ball. Yes there are a lot of unexplainable factors but it is about maximising the factors you can quantify and explain.

Point and example is Jamie Sadlowski, current world long drive champion. The kid stands 5’11 and weighs 170 lbs and hits the ball in excess of 400 yards every time. He has an efficiency that many of us dont but why not find out and improve yourself so you too can go to the limits of performance. Why cant the human body produce a swing that will one day hit the ball 450, 500, even 600 yards?

Just because you choose not to dream anymore and live on your past exploits, doesnt mean that the rest of us have given up as well. I personally will place no limitations on my performance as a human. Who knows how far one can go? But I am going to take every single advantage that science offers me. Common golf instruction (I dont consider TGM as common as Homer was so far ahead of his time! Some 40 years later and we are still disecting it) has done nothing to improve the score of the average golfer, time to get with the times of modern sport and focus on alternative quantifiable avenues.

Dont degrade the seekers of this world mate, some of us know you are only as good as you currently are and strive to be. Not how good you once were.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 13:20
Page 81

Junior,

I could hack it my friend..the reason I backed off playing was being diagnosed with cancer in 2007..I would not want anyone to battle what I went through…
do you feel like an idiot now? That will make golf a secondary part of your like forever.

Never question my being able to hack anything..especially golf..that is a piece of cake in comparison.

I am a survivor and made it through. Several other Tour players had the same fight. Enough personal stuff..everyone has their hardships, like BIO..

I do agree with you as far as work ethic, etc., we all work with different people in order to maximize our performance. I don’t blame you on doing what you feel is the best way to improve your long drive performance. You should not fault anyone who does the same.

Bye the way. Answer one thing..what exactly do Aussie’s mean by MATE.?
Not being sarcastic at all..Good luck on your length competition.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 13:39
Page 81

Junior,

My technique only will allow me about 330..calm weather..normal fairway..but I am only 6 months removed from 17 radiation treatments..that is all I can get out of my old body..but I am a great putter!!

Oh yea..it was not a dream.. and not still dreaming of doing something, just glad I did at least have a chance to live the dream for a while..same as you in the long drive..

dap
Feb 24 2009 13:45
Page 81

Glad to hear you’re a survivor RT.Keep up the positive attitude!

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 13:45
Page 81

Rt1 – just ignore Junior and Bio, they have yet to learn their manners.

Junior
Feb 24 2009 13:57
Page 81

RT1

I am sorry about your battle with your health, it is a hard time as I know personally with friends, relatives and extended family going through the same thing, I know it takes its toll.

Do I feel like an idiot? No why should I? I was not supposed to know and if it had of been disclosed I would have taken a different approach.

If you take the holier than thou approach and treat others like unknowledgable baffoons then you have to expect the same treatment in return. I will personally not take the denegration of a friend who has more knowledge than a lot of you “know it all” tour players lightly.

I have no problem with people making their own choices as far as technique and the way they see fit to get things done, but to get respect you must also give it. You dont know who you are talking to as I dont either, but to act like you have been there are done that and no one else has is something that will not be taken from this corner RT1.

The reason I know 3D body motion and mapping works is I have utilised in other sports I have played professionally and as a national representative of my country. This might be new to the golfing industry but it has been around for decades in other sports. It makes a world of difference to performance enhancement. Even if one can only add 10% to their performance which is very achievable it can be the difference between winning and losing as you would not doubt know.

330 is a good knock and puts you ahead of most. I cant putt for peanuts so you are one up there. ;) I dont need to putt in what I do though.

MATE: a colloquialism used to refer to a friend and is commonly used in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Ireland. It is or has been used interchangeably with many equivalent terms, such as buddy (popular in United States/Canada) or cobber (Australian/New Zealand only – originally derived from Yiddish, now rare).

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 14:01
Page 81

BPGS1 & DAP,

Thanks I appreciate it. I guess you are right. It is a friendly debate, I thought, but could fill the tension from these guys. Are they testing for controlled substance in long drive competition? I hear that can cause undue rage !!

Lighten up huh !!

rt1
Feb 24 2009 14:06
Page 81

Junior,

I have seen this technology. Where in the states is the best place to learn more.? I would like to find out and always open for new ways to improve.

I am certainly not closed minded and welcome a way to match skills with power

Remember most Tour players ..current or past are stubborn to a degree !!

If I hit it 400 I would not care if I could putt it either..no need..take that show on the road Junior

When you come over to Vegas go get Zuback if he is still competiting..I watched him give his clinic on Tour once several years back..he can really bring it..not to bad around the greens either.

How is your website working for you? I am a firm believer in what you reveal on it..getting the muscle to contract or twitch faster. That is precisely what my former trainer and I worked on for years..good stuff.

KOC
Feb 24 2009 14:17
Page 81

dag,

I really don’t understand, you are not a big fan of the teacher you mentioned, but your posts basically revealed all of the “flaws” the site mentioned such as straight plane line, STLOC, Flat left wrist…just want to know have you verify them all….in terms of physic? Science point of view? Traditional golf teaching wisdom? Fully understood what Homer meant? I would really love to learn more.

How about the putting device the teacher endorsed? I can relate it to straight plane line principle!

Side track a bit. Einstein first explained that Newton was wrong about the meaning of space and time. He then proved Newton wrong again when he explained that the force of gravity causes space and time to curve….Newton beats Einstein in polls of scientists and the public. Newton’s calculation on air-drag? It was said it has flaw.

It is not the matter of respect, but i feel funny, for example, when a mentor taught you some principles and you became a great teacher and/or a golfer and later on you said the principle is wrong based on speeches and friends who might never teach you to play golf! You might have great research later on to support the principle was wrong too, but how you explain you did so well once you learnt form your mentor? Again, I still respect you if you know what you do and help golfers to play better golf. I don’t love anyone or hate anyone!

Don’t know if the old mentor still teaches wrong principle or not!

Marketing involved? Yes, why not and which product don’t need marketing? Step down on “pop” teachers are marketing, step down on TGM is also marketing! Ben Hogan secret related is marketing!

The TGM book doesn’t bring me joy and happiness! It is too difficult and I wish we have something like 1+1=2 principle in learning golf.

Cheers!

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 14:36
Page 81

Rt1 – go see Rob Neal, at biodynamicsgolf I think is his company name, he works independently but also now out of the McClean golf school at PGA West. Very cutting-edge stuff, but I am sure Bio will violently disagree – what else is new? – since he is not Chris Welch.

Does the 3D motion analysis stuff very well, worked with a bunch of tour players.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 14:57
Page 82

BPGS1

Thanks I will look into that. I am attempting to design my own swing model and would like to have 3d and biodynamics be a large part of it. Certainly would help when debating the likes of BIO. That would certainly make the model more complete.

I appreciate the info. Have you been there to see it first hand? If so can you explain.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 15:32
Page 82

BPGS1,

I checked the net for Rod Neal. He is not a big fan of s/t. My model will be different in several aspects. I noticed he is with McLean. Hopefully is isn’t all Mcleans way or the highway. He does have a great deal of research on his side however.

Very simple movement patterns I have designed and have helped my students(pros and ams) tremendously.I am excited to add more to the model.

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 15:35
Page 82

No, haven’t met him, but hear good things about him. Jim McClean is a good guy and always looking for new info to improve his teaching. It says a lot that he chose Neal to be his 3D guy.

Problem with any word-based instruction, like on this forum or any other, is huge room for readers mis-interpretation of the posters meaning and intent. 2D photos and video are a vast improvement over words, and 3D even better. Unfortunately, we can’t express ourselves even remotely accurately with words in 3D terms that will make a lick of sense to the reader.

Even posting a picture like Lag did recently, which clearly shows in 2D the 30-40 degree shoulder girdle tilt I referred to can be mis-interpreted, as Bio and Junior have done. In their case, due mostly to the fact that they get off on conflict and spewing venom. The human mind is hard-wired to “see” reality as 2D, especially the analytical mind. Which is why the best golf learning is conducted in a live environment, where a teacher can show you in all 3 dimensions without having to use any words.

Something about hiding behind a computer screen with an Internet connection that makes some think that can revert back to uncivilized behavior.

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 15:40
Page 82

Yes, I saw his paper on s/t. I am not a fan either, as my posts here have shown, but am open to learn more and be proven wrong. I think the main flaw in his reasoning about s/t was that he was comparing it to standard two pivot point orthodox swing, and s/t is claiming to use a whole different model than that swing. So the fact that most tour pros still use the two pivot point swing with lateral weight shift between the two points isn’t really a valid point. S/t COULD be a truly revolutionary new way to do it, and he seemed to unfairly discount that possibility.

rt1
Feb 24 2009 15:42
Page 82

BPGS1

GOOD STUFF.I AGREE

rt1
Feb 24 2009 15:49
Page 82

Good points on s/t. That is the open mindness educated and intelligent people take.

I will obtain 3 d images as well for my model. The main part of s/t I will focus on will be more centered and not a lean left. Shoulders will turn 90 to spine..no need to force a steeper turn than that. Tilt will not be to target at the top of backswing. Bottom line is getting the club on plane for as long as possible which will maintain velocity and of course focus on power accumulators.

Thoughts?

Junior
Feb 24 2009 15:55
Page 82

BPGS


Rt1 – just ignore Junior and Bio, they have yet to learn their manners.

Excuse me, you are on a website that is based in my country. I dont know how things go in your neck of the woods but over here to get respect you must also give it and you my friend cast the first stone with the venom in which you attacked Bio and the technology we utilise.

I understand you are kind of “big deal” over there but here you are nothing but a name on the computer and will be treated as such if you wish to be arrogant and attack people that are respected on this site. You are yet to earn that right from us, no matter who you are. If you wish to have a good enlightening conversation please approach us the right way and I will happily converse with you in a polite and courtious manner.

RT1

I totally agree with you Rt 1, even though we started out rocky, I very much appreciate the way you have turned it around, I respect and admire that. You are obviously a man of intelligence and character. I apologise for the way we started and as far as I am concerned it’s forgotten. Maybe your country man can take a leaf out of your book?

We are all here to learn as what would be the point of being here. It is a great opportunity to mutually discuss things that can give us all ideas and alternatives in our approach to things. I am very direct and will take BS from nobody, but I am also intelligent and enjoy speaking to people who have a modicum of mutual respect.

I have nothing but admiration for people who make it on the tour, you are true decathletes of golf (good at everything), I am purely a sprinter and only focus on this area of my game (this is where my enjoyment lies), If I could putt like you, I would hit the tour so touche! ;)

I would love to take my show on the road RT1 but unfortunately there is not much opportunity here for a long driver, it is nothing here compared to overseas markets hence my desire to travel. I was invited to compete at the Diamond this year but unfortunately could not get $2.5 K sponsorship ($1.5 US) to get me there. Very sad blight on the state of our golf. Fortunately I now have found a dynamic agent and marketing manager who is ensuring that this does not happen again.

Just a Zuback does the only way to make money here as a long driver is corporate golf days and exhibitions. I have seen Jason’s exhibitions, he is amazing. Am currently working on my tricks to make me the rounded entertainer with a driver. My best is a flop shot with driver off the tee.

My website bites lol.. I did it myself and it will be overhauled in the not too distant future. Hell if I cant make in the world of long drive, I will become the Jack Hamm of Australia hahahaha… 6 time world champion who has never been to Re/Max, what the? POW!

I am a qualified sports strength and conditioning coach by trade so I am in total agreement with you. Contractile speed is so much more important that maximal strength… can we spell Sadlowski? ;)

All sports people are stubborn, heated arguments are bound to occur because we are all so passionate about what we do, our convictions and our self belief. If we didnt have that we would never make it to the elite level. You truly have earnt my respect from your last post and I look forward to having informative discussions in the future.

By the way, no drugs here, I am a professional firefighter who is subject to drug testing. I would rather go through the pain, blood, sweat and tears of intense training. I earn everything I get. I am just naturally aggressive and call a spade a shovel at times!! hahaha… I am wrapped though that the LDA bought in the drug testing policy – it was funny at the 2008 worlds that many so called “champions” dropped some 30lbs of mass and could no longer break 370 yards (AT ALTITUDE!) Any fool can stick a needle in themselves but have you really earnt the title of “champion” on your own merits? I dont think so. If we could only stamp out the use of growth hormone now, it would be a truly respectable event of human endeavour rather than a contest of who has the best chemist and funds available to buy a supply of performance enhancers. Sad blight on sport unfortunately!

Regards,

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 17:50
Page 82

Junior – simple test for you. Show me exactly – starting with the very first exchange between Bio and myself – how I “threw the first stone”. That’s total bs and any reader of this site can confirm it for you. I gave Bio the benefit of my “three strikes and your out policy.” Same as I would do anyone. After that, you insult, attack or disrespect me – you have made an enemy. In your case, I will make an exception – two strikes and your out. Do you want to keep it up? Your choice, or maybe you are looking to be BANNED from this site a second time?

Don’t give me that bs either about respect. Your country is no different than mine or any other in the world, and I have been to most of them, when it comes to treating people with respect. Your lecturing me or anyone else on this site about respect is a real joke, considering the content and tone of your posts here on this forum.

I have no problem with 3d technology, just your and your mate’s absurd notion that this is the ONLY way to help some one learn to hit a golf ball better. Bio goes even further than that, competing 3d systems are constantly attacked as “inferior” with no data or facts to back it up.

darthvader
Feb 24 2009 18:02
Page 82

Junior – simple test for you. Show me exactly – starting with the very first exchange between Bio and myself – how I ’Äúthrew the first stone”. That's total bs and any reader of this site can confirm it for you. I gave Bio the benefit of my ’Äúthree strikes and your out policy.” Same as I would do anyone. After that, you insult, attack or disrespect me – you have made an enemy. In your case, I will make an exception – two strikes and your out. Do you want to keep it up? Your choice, or maybe you are looking to be BANNED from this site a second time?

Don't give me that bs either about respect. Your country is no different than mine or any other in the world, and I have been to most of them, when it comes to treating people with respect. Your lecturing me or anyone else on this site about respect is a real joke, considering the content and tone of your posts here on this forum.

I have no problem with 3d technology, just your and your mate's absurd notion that this is the ONLY way to help some one learn to hit a golf ball better. Bio goes even further than that, competing 3d systems are constantly attacked as ’Äúinferior” with no data or facts to back it up.

Who is BPGS ?

iseekgolfguru
Feb 24 2009 18:35
Page 82

A well respected US end teacher.

darthvader
Feb 24 2009 18:54
Page 82

A well respected US end teacher.

Ok. He must already have my swing on his files then

stinkler
Feb 24 2009 19:05
Page 82

Google is your friend, gs may be golf school?

darthvader
Feb 24 2009 19:09
Page 82

Google is your friend, gs may be golf school?

Keen newbie to the game, now obsessed.

I got this doing google

http://s34.photobucket.com/...

stinkler
Feb 24 2009 19:12
Page 82

I got this http://www.bpgolfacademy.com/

darthvader
Feb 24 2009 19:30
Page 82

I got this http://www.bpgolfacademy.com/

Keen newbie to the game, now obsessed.

Never heard of this bloke. More likely the other photobucket posted up
Sure hope he tells me cause the dude can type forever

Bio
Feb 24 2009 20:41
Page 82

BPS1,
I have no problem with Rob, he’s a great guy Jim and Rob had some great stuff, but then everyone went to town on them.
There was stuff in his triple x factor that was wishy washy although he also had some great information as well.
The stuff which was wishy washy I understood what he was saying but for the average bear this was misinterpreted.
On Jim’s behalf this was a tough job to try and explain everything in a short article and the full story can’t be explained so information was missing which lead to confusion.
Which lead to everyone attacking them, I felt for the boys.
One slight mistake Jim should have explained the mechanics and Rob explain the biomechanics so people didn’t get confused and this lead to their down fall.

One thing which was badly explained was the downswing sequence, I understood what Jim was trying to say, but he couldn’t put this into words which I can relate too. If you went and visted Rob and he demonstrated in person would be totally different to how this was presented in writing.
Rob is a great guy and is doing some great research.
They have a tough job combining mechanics with biomechanics and this is where the confusion is. In one respect there is not very many people that understand body motion and the science behind it.
So when a reader picks up a magzine he thinks mechanics, recipe for disaster

BPS i have no quarms with you as you said 30 to 40 degrees can be misinterpreted and will be by readers this is my point.
Look what happen to Jim and Rob.

This is the reason why I don’t get into the science here if I don’t communicate this correctly it leads to confusion misunderstanding and I could injury someone. There is theory and practical. The theory is only theory. To make the theory work in practice you have to train movement patterns through dynamics and progressive skills training.

20 years ago they worked out how the body motion works in a golfswing, data is old news. Data is data ok now what, “ok how do you train movements patterns”.
Honestly who cares about the data, I know I don’t, the primary focus is finding ways to train people how to improve movement patterns.

Ok Dudes this is the thing there is no swing models, each athlete is different we all have different movement patterns. But some are more effective then others. Now from research from so many different biomechanists there is a kinetic link and no one disputes this. The kinetic link is the most effective movement pattern. Not only in golf in most sports.
Let’s take a look Greg Norman, Nick Price, Ernie Els and Nick faldo all have fantastic kinetic links, they all have simular movement patterns, although there swings all look different, the reason is they swing mechanics are different. Also they are individuals and no one swings the same.
The problem with golf is we are all teaching generic stuff instead of teaching and training a player as an individual athlete.
As The players above prove as long as you have the right movement patterns you can swing the club how ever you like.
S&T is generic, Edwin generic this is why they only work for very few.
Get the person movement patterns right then build the mechancs which work for them, not some geneirc bullSh..t

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

iseekgolfguru
Feb 24 2009 20:46
Page 82

The google search is incorrect. Nice idea though:)

KOC
Feb 24 2009 20:51
Page 82

Jim …..I have his web site bookmark quite a long time ago…hehe

stinkler
Feb 24 2009 20:55
Page 82

http://www.balancepointgolf... ? Go google.

Junior
Feb 24 2009 20:55
Page 82

Ah me neither… must be renowned

BPGS:

Okay I can read so I went back and checked the postings, the first PERSONAL insult was actually cast by yourself in Bio’s direction. I quote:

Obviously your parents never taught you proper manners or how about, You have all the earmarks of Fundamentalist Personality Disorder. These statements are directed at the person not at their theories. Maybe you should reconsider your position?

All he did prior to that is question the accuracy of your theories and measurements and stated his opinion that he thought they were garbage. As I did also, show me one thing I have said that is A PERSONALLY DIRECTED INSULT? Welcome to an open forum!

You get banned here for being personally insulting, no directly questioning someone’s accuracy and interpreting their statements. FYI, I asked to be banned. And yes I was personally insulting towards someone’s character. In this case I have not been in any stretch of the imagination. I have never once called you anything, made direct comments towards you family or your state of mental health as you have done. I questioned what you had to say and the efficacy of your measurements.

If you are not happy to have your theories or measurements questioned, why even post? Are we better off taking everything posted as gospel and never questioning it?

I reiterate my position, How can you accurately take 2D measurements on what is a 3D motion when you are missing the Z axis measurement, how can you take a 2D image of a 3D motion and determine the depth co-efficient? You must have an amazing ruler.

I have made an enemy? So be it. I guess that is 3 strikes for me also?

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Junior
Feb 24 2009 21:10
Page 82

Jim Waldron? Nup still doesnt ring any bells! Sorry, nice website though….

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

RowdyYates
Feb 24 2009 21:13
Page 82

Junior = childish

Boorish, time to let it go and let information be exchanged.

iseekgolfguru
Feb 24 2009 21:24
Page 82

Indeed.

Junior
Feb 24 2009 21:35
Page 82

It was a tongue in cheek joke, he has some good theories I actually took the time to read his website cover to cover so to speak. Chill out guys. Are we not to question “teachers”? Sorry

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

BPGS1
Feb 24 2009 21:37
Page 82

Junior – go back to my first posts on this forum, starting back in November of last year I believe, and review Bio’s responses.to my posts And my measured and respectful responses to his insults and attacks. It’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a matter of public record. I have only very recently concluded that his intent is nothing but negative, hateful and destructive. I’m not a fool – at some point I am going to fight back. I learned from a very early age growing up in a very tough neighborhood in Chicago that you can never play nice with bullies. Bio and you seem to only know how to play hardball – so be it. Game on…

We can disagree on content, swing theories, and teaching methods, I could care less about that, but when you attack some one’s motivation – which Bio has clearly done in my case on several occassions, accusing me of deliberately misleading readers of this forum with false information, – and when you attack their character, that is another matter altogether.

I have 53 years of passionate devotion to this game on my resume, thousands of hours of research, teaching thousands of students of all skill levels and study, yes including 3D analysis of the golf swing many years before the technology was there to analyze it.

My method of teaching the game was called in 1999 by the instruction editors of Golf Magazine :...the greatest advancement in golf instruction in the past twenty five years.” I have won numerous Top teacher awards and top golf school awards here in the States . I will put the results my students have achieved using my methods up against any teacher on the planet – period.

I did the 3D analysis the old-fashioned way through intensive empirical observation and study. My whole method of teaching is based on the biggest 2D illlusion, The Arm Swing Illusion, my book on this will be published this summer. I was studying the golf swing in 3D before you and Bio were even born. So – yes, I take offense when you lecture me disrespectfully when you don’t know the first thing about my knowledge, experience or background.

And don’t waste your time trying to convince me that your technology 3D approach is superior to my empirical 3D approach because I already know that to be a true fact. No question that somethings take high tech to see and understand what is really happening. But understanding it like I do in more common sense terms, makes it easier for me to communicate it to average golfers, since most of them wouldn’t know a y from a z from an x axis if their life depended on it.

I know exactly what the 3 dimensional spinal motions are at all stages of the golf swing. I also know that trying to explain that in words in this forum would be a waste of everybody’s time. You want to have an argument about what is really happening in the golf swing in terms of spine tilts, you better bring your A game. Nowhere in my post on right spine tilt did I claim to be describing the entire issue in 3D terms. Only an idiot would think I was trying to explain it in 3D using a 2D photo.

My assumption was that the readers of this forum who are here to learn something useful about the golf swing would benefit from taking a look at impact photos of shoulder girdle tilt relative to ground level. Something Low Tech by design – using a protractor and pencil. Go back and read my post – that is exactly what I said. I know -and hopefully you and Bio know – that the 2D doesn’t tell the whole story. I know that some of the visible tilt of the shoulder girdle is due to forward spine angle, some to rotation and some to pure right lateral side bending. I also know – from first hand experience teaching this concept hands on in our golf schools – that this can be a very difficult concept to grasp for most golfers.

I also listed – twice – several other sources who have used 3D analysis that agree with my figures. GolfTec is a big deal here in the States with indoor training facilities all over the nation, they use 3D as part of their model, and they also teach about 20 degrees of additional tilt dynamically. So – I backed up my figures with exactly the kind of high tech sourcing you claim to respect but instead chose to perceive what I wrote as something I made up in my head from using a protractor. Give me a break! Its just plain insulting on the face of it.

It makes you and Bio look like a couple of jerks who just want to indulge in hate and venom.

DIGGABRYCE
Feb 24 2009 21:57
Page 83

Rito enoughs, enough… I know this is a public forum Blah blah, but lets agree to disagree here and get on with something constructive about LAG’s GOLF MACHINE !
Shoot me down for entering the debate, and I know I don’t have to read it and all that, but it’s right in your face in this topic… Which you can learn a fair bit from.
Start up a fight club thread somewhere could be 1 suggestion.
You fellas in this debate all seem a bit above this carry on so lets get on with it aye.
rant over.

Go All Blacks 09

lucidair
Feb 24 2009 22:01
Page 83

Well said Digga

Golf forever, work never!

Junior
Feb 24 2009 22:06
Page 83

Jim:

All you needed to do is explain that right there. I have only asked you to explain things. Perhaps it is your wording that could have been better phrased. No I have not had the benefit of reading all the interactions, I will do so though.

If I have taken you out of context I do apologise though, however I have not once been personally insulting to you or your character. Yes it is true I have never heard of you, however now that I have read your website, I do read, I think many of your theories are extremely valid and are along the same lines of how I train.

I am willing to apologise and start a fresh.

Your theory on “not thinking” whilst performing motion is spot on as I have been training to do this of recent times. My performance had been hampered by for want of a better term ‘paralysis by analysis’. I find this to be very common place in traditional golf instruction which has always been preached so technically. CW and BIO are actually the first people I have come across who discourage cognitive thought during motion. Rather they utilise progressive skills training to teach body motion without a golf ball.

It was not until I read an article recently about motor skill learning. Conscious thought accesses the frontal cortex in the intial learning phase, as the motion is repeated it transfers to the cerebellum (subconscious domain). The cerebellum is capable of high speed performance where as the frontal or motor cortex is not. When performing any sporting motion which requires high speed impulse conduction any conscious thought short circuits the cerebullum in favour of the slower operational frontal cortex and therefore ruins motion. This made a lot of sense as it has never been explained previously. As to the whys and wherefores.

I not try to do with my driving as Aaron Baddeley does so successfully with his putter. Walk in, address the ball and pull the trigger. I can recommend this for any one to try, my last two training sessions have been ridiculous in the level of performance I have attained. Today’s especially.

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Once again I apologise if my questioning was taken as an insult. Yes I have a attacking nature at times but this occurs in here from time to time as we are all passionate about what we do, I know I eat sleep and breath what I do currently. Sometimes it takes you to just take a step back for a minute to realise you have been going off on a tangent that aides nobody, including one’s self.

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

lucidair
Feb 24 2009 22:13
Page 83

Junior that is a very commendable and positive post.

Golf forever, work never!

DIGGABRYCE
Feb 24 2009 22:15
Page 83

Hey Junior, When you walk up to the ball at a comp or when ever to hit a long drive, do you look up to see where you wana hit the ball or is it just head down arse up, so to speak?
Accuracy obviously still plays a major part , but there must be a bit more getting that feeling of being “in the zone” involved?

Go All Blacks 09

KOC
Feb 24 2009 22:16
Page 83

BPBS1,

Educated hands is a topic of your school? Right?

dap
Feb 24 2009 22:42
Page 83

dag,

I really don't understand, you are not a big fan of the teacher you mentioned, but your posts basically revealed all of the ’Äúflaws” the site mentioned such as straight plane line, STLOC, Flat left wrist…just want to know have you verify them all….in terms of physic? Science point of view? Traditional golf teaching wisdom? Fully understood what Homer meant? I would really love to learn more.

How about the putting device the teacher endorsed? I can relate it to straight plane line principle!

Side track a bit. Einstein first explained that Newton was wrong about the meaning of space and time. He then proved Newton wrong again when he explained that the force of gravity causes space and time to curve….Newton beats Einstein in polls of scientists and the public. Newton's calculation on air-drag? It was said it has flaw.

It is not the matter of respect, but i feel funny, for example, when a mentor taught you some principles and you became a great teacher and/or a golfer and later on you said the principle is wrong based on speeches and friends who might never teach you to play golf! You might have great research later on to support the principle was wrong too, but how you explain you did so well once you learnt form your mentor? Again, I still respect you if you know what you do and help golfers to play better golf. I don't love anyone or hate anyone!

Don't know if the old mentor still teaches wrong principle or not!

Marketing involved? Yes, why not and which product don't need marketing? Step down on ’Äúpop” teachers are marketing, step down on TGM is also marketing! Ben Hogan secret related is marketing!

The TGM book doesn't bring me joy and happiness! It is too difficult and I wish we have something like 1+1=2 principle in learning golf.

Cheers!

The good thing about BM is that he is always looking for new information regarding the golf swing but his attitude towards posters who don’t agree with him really sucks.There are a few things he teach that I don’t like.His “twistaway” on the backswing if done too early can lead to an overly flat backswing.The clubhead can get behind the hands too soon.

I don’t discriminate when it comes to instructors or theories.If something makes sense and works,i’ll use it.If not I discard it.Same with BM,same with TGM.

I am also in no way saying that BM is a better teacher than Ben Doyle.I was just trying to get a point across.Ben could very well kick BM’s ass in a game also.lol

Junior
Feb 24 2009 22:44
Page 83

To be honest Digga, I have not performed to the potential I have displayed in training in competitions, well not the potential I expect from myself. (Trust me I am my own toughest critic and a perfectionist by nature) I did however realise what I had been doing through some serious self analysis as well as learning about motor skill performance which I just mentioned.

Prior to this realisation, I had placed to much importance on the event and allowed myself to be filled with many negative thoughts: What if I stuff up? What if I look stupid? I need to win to prove myself, I need to do this, that and the other. I had created a level of performance anxiety to the point that I could no longer perform the physical skills I know that I trained hard to develop. Last competition and a few before I got myself in such a state that I actually shook on the tee with nerves. This is very unlike me to get nervous but I realised I was doing it to myself.

I think the best approach (for me anyway) is to pick my spot, walk in relaxed, align to my target, look back to the ball and pull the trigger without even a thought.

“The zone” in my opinion is best described as a state of “no thought” where the performance is just put in action. I have been guilty of not practising the way I expect to perform. So now I give myself as much “game scenario” practice as I can.

eg. I have 3 balls left to win a tournament and then go and make myself do it.

I also am lucky enough to draw some spectators when I train and so I treat this as a game time performance, I have to make the shot and they are the spectators. I have recently been trying to put myself in high pressure situations so I can train the way I want to play.

Another beneficial thing that has added to my performance levels of late, is the preparation for the charity exhibition. I have been trying all sorts of different trick shots and also hitting massive fades and long draws. As well as hitting the ball as low as possible, off my knees, sitting down, whatever. I have found this to be extremely beneficial for my kinesthetic awareness (feel) as well as adding stability to my body motion. The other benefit has been the level of relaxation I have achieved while performing these “silly” shots. As I have no expectations of perfromance regarding their execution I have found that the pressure has not been on and I have actually learned faster.

I then transferred this to when I want to go long. Rather than treating it like an all important shot, I have treated it like just another “trick” just felt the motion and let go. My distance and direction has been beyond my wildest dreams in the last two sessions.

I recommend to go out and be child like to anyone. As adults we sometimes forget how to have fun and put expectations and pressures on ourselves regarding outcomes. Grab a club and see what you can do. Stand funny, move your hands and body all crazy ways and try to hit all sorts of shots. Let your imagination run wild. It is heaps of fun and you may surprise yourself how good you get when you hit “regular” balls. Yes you still have to work technique and drills but have some fun doing it.

Hope that helps mate, sorry long ass response, have found passion again lol.

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

DIGGABRYCE
Feb 24 2009 22:58
Page 83

To be honest Digga, I have not performed to the potential I have displayed in training in competitions, well not the potential I expect from myself. (Trust me I am my own toughest critic and a perfectionist by nature) I did however realise what I had been doing through some serious self analysis as well as learning about motor skill performance which I just mentioned.

Prior to this realisation, I had placed to much importance on the event and allowed myself to be filled with many negative thoughts: What if I stuff up? What if I look stupid? I need to win to prove myself, I need to do this, that and the other. I had created a level of performance anxiety to the point that I could no longer perform the physical skills I know that I trained hard to develop. Last competition and a few before I got myself in such a state that I actually shook on the tee with nerves. This is very unlike me to get nervous but I realised I was doing it to myself.

I think the best approach (for me anyway) is to pick my spot, walk in relaxed, align to my target, look back to the ball and pull the trigger without even a thought.

’ÄúThe zone” in my opinion is best described as a state of ’Äúno thought” where the performance is just put in action. I have been guilty of not practising the way I expect to perform. So now I give myself as much ’Äúgame scenario” practice as I can.

eg. I have 3 balls left to win a tournament and then go and make myself do it.

I also am lucky enough to draw some spectators when I train and so I treat this as a game time performance, I have to make the shot and they are the spectators. I have recently been trying to put myself in high pressure situations so I can train the way I want to play.

Another beneficial thing that has added to my performance levels of late, is the preparation for the charity exhibition. I have been trying all sorts of different trick shots and also hitting massive fades and long draws. As well as hitting the ball as low as possible, off my knees, sitting down, whatever. I have found this to be extremely beneficial for my kinesthetic awareness (feel) as well as adding stability to my body motion. The other benefit has been the level of relaxation I have achieved while performing these ’Äúsilly” shots. As I have no expectations of perfromance regarding their execution I have found that the pressure has not been on and I have actually learned faster.

I then transferred this to when I want to go long. Rather than treating it like an all important shot, I have treated it like just another ’Äútrick” just felt the motion and let go. My distance and direction has been beyond my wildest dreams in the last two sessions.

I recommend to go out and be child like to anyone. As adults we sometimes forget how to have fun and put expectations and pressures on ourselves regarding outcomes. Grab a club and see what you can do. Stand funny, move your hands and body all crazy ways and try to hit all sorts of shots. Let your imagination run wild. It is heaps of fun and you may surprise yourself how good you get when you hit ’Äúregular” balls. Yes you still have to work technique and drills but have some fun doing it.

Hope that helps mate, sorry long ass response, have found passion again lol.

Junior

Talk is cheap! Actions speak a 1000 times louder!

Great stuff, I was only mentioning to the guru today that I’m way to tense with my golf… Hopefully I can find some way of loosening up.
All the thoughts of pressure points etc don’t really help… but are still necesary at my stage of learning, at the moment I’m concentrating on the educated hands line of thinking, can’t wait ‘till it all just happens.

Go All Blacks 09

dap
Feb 24 2009 23:02
Page 83

Choppers……... Ben cannot play..I know and have seen it first hand…

Well,I guess the man will be well in his 70’s by now?

KOC
Feb 24 2009 23:30
Page 83

dap,

Would you enlighten me two things? First, how you precieve “STLOC” as highlighted by Ben Doyle and stated as the principle of G.O.L.F. by Homer Kelly and then tell me a lil’ more about how wrong is “STLOC”? If it is based on the clubhead off story, I would like to share some non-science points of view later.

dap
Feb 24 2009 23:36
Page 83

KOC,

Go to BM’s site and do a search.

The poster that convinced BM to change his mind about STLOC is called “Mandrin”.

Guru has already said this topic has been done to death,here and in other forums.I’m sure you have read them.

It’s getting boring for everyone.

rt1
Feb 25 2009 00:54
Page 83

Junior,

Thanks for the reversal on your part as well. I know Art Sellinger, as you know he has a team that travels and does clinics all over the world. He is located in Texas and should be relatively easy to reach for your agent. From a marketing standpoint( I did most of mine myself when on Tour..I negotiated my bag, hat, shoe, glove, ball, apparel contracts personally) it could be a niche for the ‘longest hitter from down under’ to be on the Art’s crew. I would wear it out from that angle if I were you..I am sure your agent feels close to the same.

Art is a good guy, maybe you have met him, and an incredible business man. That is who you should contact. I am confident I am not telling you anything you don’t know, however give it a try.

rt1
Feb 25 2009 01:06
Page 83

Junior,

All sports people are stubborn, heated arguments are bound to occur because we are all so passionate about what we do, our convictions and our self belief. If we didnt have that we would never make it to the elite level. You truly have earnt my respect from your last post and I look forward to having informative discussions in the future.

You are right on with this statement. Well said and intelligent. Comparing and sharing ideas is how we all learn.

I was partially joking about the performance drugs in long drive. Sounds like it is true. Unbelievable..We started testing on the PGA Tour a year or so back. We have so much of that in every sport, baseball in particular. As a former professional player, you probably saw it first hand from some of the guys. Everyone is looking for a short cut to the top!!

Let me know about reaching Art.

darthvader
Feb 25 2009 01:11
Page 83

The dark forces are evident and slowly taking over in this thread and Lag you 2 have the dark force in you

iseekgolfguru
Feb 25 2009 01:20
Page 83

Lets remember this thread is Lags. Take tangents off it into new threads please.

Passion is all well and good but guys lets keep to the subjects and keep the personal crapping out of this place. 2D and 3D measurements etc have their own thread areas already.

rt1
Feb 25 2009 01:28
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bpgs1,

Would enjoy more about your phlisophy. Anyway to e-mail, etc. away from this forum?

darthvader
Feb 25 2009 01:34
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BPGS is Jim Waldron…nice profile and is a karate man as well..does he teach the dark side

rt1
Feb 25 2009 01:38
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JUNIOR,

I worked with one of the leading sports psychologist in the world , Dr. Bob Rotella, personally not from a book, when I played full time. I would recommend any of the several books and that may help you as Dr.Bob would say” trust what you train” There are many things we do as professional tournament players to control nervs..pre shot routine comes to mind, confidence in what you have trained, experience in being in the heat of battle, etc.

I would at least read one of his books. I feel you probably have great long drive mechanics. Let the research on technique go..you have to perform under pressure and if you are trying to guide it on the grid ..well you know what will happen. Some of the most successful players I have known have no clue what is actually happening in their swing !! Only a feel..these guys usually stand the test of time.

Let me know your thoughts if you check the book out.

iseekgolfguru
Feb 25 2009 01:40
Page 83

Choppers……… Ben cannot play..I know and have seen it first hand…

Well,I guess the man will be well in his 70's by now?

Well into them. Ben to my knowledge is playing to low figures still.

Did anyone notice the trolls visit?

Bio
Feb 25 2009 03:47
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Junior,
Well done , 392 metres is that all you got? LOL
Mate from recent reading you mentioned, does this mean now you understand the preshot routine I had you working on ? L.O.L.

RT1,
Thanks for the recomendation for junior with the books

BPS,
At the end of the day we all have heated discussion, I have nothing personal against you.
But understand when you talk measurement be exact , 20 open you sure I can agree with that. Be aware readers will go out and try and achieve these measurements, we could injure them or stuff their golfswing up.
Measurements aren’t important , the dynamic training is what is important.
I would prefer to hear you speak about dynamic training educating guys how to achieve this using dynamic training.
Lets be both honest here , measurements aren’t going to help the readers hear. I try to steer clear of measurements for this reason.

Tilt I will be honest is my pet hate, The only reason there is tilt in a golf swing is the right hand is lower on the club and no other reason.
Hip tilt there is no such thing. the reason the hips looked tilted is they are perpendicular to the spine, no other reason.

BPS i’m sure you have great knowledge as a coach, I don’t doubt that but lets just both of us steer clear of measurements for the readers sack. yeah talk about motion but lets not talk about numbers.
I would like to hear from you , using your knowledge to educate readers how to get body motion right using dynamics, this is what they need to hear.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

rt1
Feb 25 2009 07:10
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bio,

How long is 392 meters in yards? I could look it up ..but a little lazy!

rt1
Feb 25 2009 07:16
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BIO,

How close do you feel TGM material is to your r&d? Could you explain a few likenesses and differences ..

Mashie72
Feb 25 2009 07:53
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AB,
I've read at least 10 of those sports psychologists' type books. The best advice that has and continues to help me is simple. It's called acceptance in case you haven't already tried it. EX: If I haven't played in a few months and go out for the first time I usually play better than I would have expected to play. (In my mind, I had already accepted a few bad swings that might happen. Then the second time out for some reason I wouldn't naturally accept hardly any bad shots because they didn't happen the first time..So now before I hit a difficult shot I tell myself I accept wherever this ball goes. It relaxes me for some reason. Hope it helps and sorry to bore the other readers if it's a well worn out saw.

Lag,
Back to Low Point Geometry…Is the low point using angle hinging for a fade inside the plane line as well and maybe more up plane than normal? Thanks for your help as always

BPGS1
Feb 25 2009 09:03
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bpgs1,

Would enjoy more about your phlisophy. Anyway to e-mail, etc. away from this forum?

Rt1 -would love to chat with you, my contact info is on our site www.balancepointgolf.com.

BPGS1
Feb 25 2009 11:03
Page 84

BPBS1,

Educated hands is a topic of your school? Right?

Yes – but not exact same meaning as TGM. More like Henry Cotton’s concept: grip position, pressure points, “wring the flannel” to unitize the hands, clubface angle awareness, clubhead mass awareness, low point/angle of attack awareness, overall level of grip pressure, equal pressure – a few others. Starting point for sensory feedback system training is in the hands.

Wrist mechanics at B Point is taught as a separate piece of the puzzle.

BPGS1
Feb 25 2009 11:31
Page 84

Jujnior – thank you very much for your apology and explanation, I really appreciate that. I like the change in tone very much. It will facilitate a much more reasoned and enlightening discussion here, even when we end up with the inevitable disagreements. The cortex/cerebellum article you referred to is very good news, I too enjoyed it, more proof about something I have been teaching for a long time now. There are some interesting outcomes from the basic idea – that affect performance, learning, training and teaching as well.

I first discovered the basic concept of an “empty mind” in sports at age 13 while free-sparring with my karate sensei (teacher). He was at that time one of the top martial arts masters in the world, and had also spent many years training as a Zen monk. I was struggling to score a “point” – this was the era of no contact free-fighting, before the body armor and foot pads – and was not doing too well with that, in fact he was scoring “hits” against me with hand and foot like crazy. I was trying really hard to focus on proper blocking, punching and kicking technique – which of course made ME slow down in speed and even flinch a little – and could do nothing against him.

After about five minutes of this he said what I thought was a new Japanese karate term “Toomushigo, Waldron-san”. I paused, trying to recall what that word meant in karate terms, we would spar for a few minutes, me very poorly executing again, then once again “Toomushigo Waldron-san”. I finally stopped and said to him” Sensei – what is this new Japanese word you keep saying to me, ‘toomushigo’. He says ” not Japanese – English! TOO MUCH EGO!”

He then explained the concept of an “empty mind” a big deal in Zen philosophy, meditation practice and martial arts, and showed me a basic sitting meditation technique and also where and how to focus my mind when free-fighting with an opponent. The main concept is to NEVER focus on your self, especially your body mechanics, as it tends to create interference from conscious mind thinking or will power, to the subconscious automatic mindset of pure reaction. I now call all of the possible ways to do this Interference Factors, its a pretty big list, some are mental, some emotional, some physical, some environmental. Thinking swing mechanics we call Contamination, ie conscious mind interfering with subconscious.

A year or so later, I adapted this principle to basketball, and became a very good shooter, especially long range and from the free throw line, and achieved a personal best of 67 made free throws in a row. Part of it is knowing how to use your vision – where and how to focus your eye gaze – and where NOT to look. Part is emotional – either accessing a mild intensity level of positive emotion or a totally neutral state. And part is mental – picking one and only one conscious mind focal point from a list of about a dozen that will work well in golf. The meditation practice is the best way to learn how keep your mental attention on that One Thing for the two second duration just before the trigger is pulled until Finish.

Their is also an “attitude” aspect, which is what we and Moe Norman call Positive Indifference, closely related to Mashies idea about Acceptance in his post here. “not caring” is the feeling you are looking for. One of Hogan’s many “secrets”. Hogan said he expected and “allowed” himself to hit five bad shots a round, that was his average by his standards of course. So when the first inevitable bad shot happened, he had already accepted it before he had ever stepped foot on the first tee, so it was no suprise and no source of worry or anxiety. Very powerful stuff.

I guess my suggestion would be to incorporate some of these ideas into your shotmaking routine. Test your focal points to find which gives you the best ball flight result, ie Target Picture, Finish, Rhythm, Tempo, Balance, Grip Pressure, neutral thought like counting backwards from 100, etc. Any non-Target focal point requires “background” awareness on Target and it must be from first person perspective, ie NOT giving yourself a lesson on how to do Rhythm – rather, just feel or hear your rhythm cue, it must be a passive intention.

rt1
Feb 25 2009 11:51
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BPGS1

Great post about mental imaging, and focus. Dr. Bob used to tell me to care less, not be careless. Simple words but need to be practiced as much as the physical game. He would drive the point home about excercising the mind as well as the body.

Sounded very simple when I first heard this from him, but found out it was not as easy to add this to the arsenal. I firmly believe that is the intangible that separates Tiger, Jack, Hogan, Nelson, and the few other elite players I have left out, from others who physically are on the same level.

I will drop you an e-mail in the near future. Very nice website.

iseekgolfguru
Feb 25 2009 12:20
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rt1 drop me a line to golfguruATiseekgolfDOTcom

Junior
Feb 25 2009 12:30
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Hey guys.

BPGS:

Awesome post. Very good information. How do we go about the process of ‘empty mind’? Would love to hear more. Great suggestions re focal points, I will certainly give them a go. Thanks for advice

RT1:

Mate, stellar advice! I would actually be interested in talking to you more about getting in touch with Art and also about the marketing aspects from a golfers perspective. Obviously this is not the time or the place so feel free to drop me an email whenever it is convenient for you at damop@dodo.com.au

I totally understand where you are coming from in terms of sports psychology and I absolutely agree. We are capable of performing so much better subconsciously, after of course we put in conscious programming efforts, it is a matter of learning to get out of your own way. I like Dr Bob’s writings, he certainly has some fascinating techniques. It is bizarre that getting to that place of “no mind” and automatic pilot is so difficult – especially for someone who thinks too much in all facets of life. Ironic that intelligence can also be a hinderence to performance as well as an asset…

392 is approximately 428 yards

Bio:

Yes mate that is all, I actually didnt catch all of it and was surprised it went so far. Catch it a little high and in the toe slightly. I ended up spewing in the end as it made me wonder how face perfect contact would have taken it. But we will get there one day. Funny thing was, it was a Par 5 and we had 50 metres left for our second and still only made 4!!! hahahaha….

Not so much pre shot routine mate, yes very similar approach to what you said but I am actually trying to think of nothing right from the first step. Just focussing on feeling a rhythm and staying relaxed.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Bio
Feb 25 2009 13:29
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RT1,
In all honesty all we do is measure human movement patterns,
And look at potential injury and improving performance.
Our job is to measure a client see if they have effective movement patterns or not, then we train the athlete how to change their moevement patterns. We work along side with the coach as team to help the athlete in all different sports not just golf.
Mechanics isn’t my field anymore. I’ll be honest the day I picked up a club I was taught T.G.M, My meachics are pretty pure. Although my movement patterns were poor. I could never workout why my golf was inconsistant, So there I was on the practice fair way working on mechanics and there I was wasting 10 years of my life working on something which was already pure. My mechanics were fine, my issue was my movement patterns. This wasn’t the coaches fault he did an awesome job.

Although now I have retrained my movement patterns I’m cranking, In all honest I’m compression the ball the best I ever had in my life and I hit the ball miles, Better then before my accident, My mechanics can now do their job effectively .

Most coaches mechanics are good the reason golfers don’t get results is poor movement patterns not mechanics.

With Stack and tilt no offense, after you fix movement patterns the mechanics don’t work for them, so this is why i question S&T.
But there are a few other generic style I question as well.

Other methods you fix their movement patterns they start cranking and playing awesome golf.

I hope oneday the P.G.A realise there should be two coaches each a very unique and special field, golf mechanic coach, and movement pattern coaches and each stick to their on field to keep them pure.

One thing with T.G.M I like there is no one style , so you have so many different variations of mechanics, which is great , this allows golf coaches to teach a player according to what meshes in with their movement patterns. And if they come and get screened by me and we improve and change movement patterns, then this allows the coach to then change the mechanics according to suit the new movement patterns.

The problem with a swing models is they are generic and which lead to the problem , where we aren’t generic, we are all individuals athletes who are built different and move different. Even though the kinetic link is the sequence we strive for we can have different mechanics and still have a great kinetic link and play awesome golf, that’s why the jim furk’s and these guys have out there swings and can play, what they do is build the mechanics around thier movement patterns. Hence that may not have great movement patterns either, he just smart and built a swing to work with them.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

rt1
Feb 25 2009 14:01
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BIO,

Good post. I hope I am interpreting this correctly. Are you saying that mechanics( positions) should be integrated with the way an individual moves or doesn’t move in the golf swing? PLease clear this up for me if I am wrong.

What approach would you take if a person has never played before and is swinging a club for the first time. ( other than grip, etc) Is this where the coach develops what he can then movement patterns( tendencies ?) are determined and then mechanics adjusted after the movement patterns? Are your referral to movement patterns synonymous with tendencies?

I am a little slow so please explain..

Bio
Feb 25 2009 18:11
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RT1,
Yeah a good golf coach will work with a golfers movement patterns. I use to watch coaches teaching and see then do strange things and think what sort of crap is that. Now looking at it he was a great coach he knew that all the golfer wanted was a quick fix, so he knew trying to teach the right mechanics and try and change his movements would only make the golfer worst in respect he wouldn’t train. So the coach worked out mechanics which work effectively to the way he moved. Now I realise I was the bad coach trying to teach generic mechanics. I should have taught my students mechanics which work with your movement patterns.
Although unless a golfer wants to improve and is prepared to work hard, then send him to someone who can change his movement patterns and then apply the right mechanics to them.

For beginers teach them basic mechanics and get these honed in , but use dynamics not position golf( Personally I believe most people who start out golf and get a few lessons and then give up, this is due to being taught position golf, so they never have a win and quit .Teach them dynamics doesn’t matter if they wrap it around their head give them a win, get the ball in the air.) give them so drive loading, or simple brush the grass after the ball. Don’t let them think to much, Let it happen, don’t make it happen.

Then once they start winning and decide they want to really get into golf ,send your student to someone to teach them movement patterns, Once this is achieved then a coach can refine the mechanics and teach them the important stuff, like how to actually play (playing lessons) and shortgame etc. The fun stuff.
All I can say is the day a coach does this he will become known as one of the best coaches going.
Why ?simple he can turn most of his beginers into single figure players.

We have a person who is a kick boxer, which has a similar kinetic link to golf, This person was screend hitting an impact bag. This person had an awesome kinetic link for golf, fantastic movement patterns, although give this person a ball and golf club, couldn’t hit the ball. So this person needs to go get golf lessons.

Where coaches and student hit brick walls is when a student stops progressing it’s neither the golf coaches teaching or the students ability to learn, the underlaying problem is movement pattern issues. Get ths sorted then the teacher and student can carry on their journey progressing to the level they are striving for.

I hope in the future I can educate the golfing world so that coaches get the credibility they deserve cause they do a fantastic job and maybe the P.G.A oneday will develop two type of coaches as I have said before. One thing people must realise is that body motion is only now starting to get reconised and people in our field are finally getting listened to and more and more coaches are calling us into to help them out.
With the technology i use now we can actual screen on the driving range, with no wires or sensors. Only take two minutes to capture data. Then we can upload and process in a very short time frame.
No more wires, special lab etc, so now we can go to the coach and students.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

Whitednj
Feb 25 2009 18:32
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BPGS1. I have had Zen Golf by Dr Joseph Parent since January – about the same day that my local course has been knocked out by flooding. So, apart from 9 holes last week (3 days of dry – it’s now wet again), haven’t really been able to put into practice what I’ve read. But I think this sort of thing will make a big difference to me and others like me who tend to over analyse their game and the risk in front of us on the course.

This may not be the best book on Zen principles as they apply to golf but it reinforces the concept of imagining the shot/putt and letting your trained body take over. We’ve all had that feeling where we “see” the shot (or line of the putt) and step up and do it with a positive mindset and for some reason the ball seems to be on a string. That is what I’m after every shot as I know my consistency will be much better as I’ll get the best out of my particular swing.

lagpressure
Feb 25 2009 18:42
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Mashie,

You first must determine if your low point is a “true” low point.

A hacker can have the ball too far back in the stance, cast their hands too soon and create a divot that has a visual low point in it that might lead them to believe that that is their true lowpoint.. in other words a bent left wrist lowpoint.

On the other extreme, I can put the ball out past my left foot and take a straight divot with an extremely arched left wrist low point where my hands are ahead of the clubhead, and inline has not happened yet.
To do this requires a shortening of the swing radius, usually by bending excessively at the waist or knees… it also encourages a disconnect of the #4 accumulator.. a Ben Doyle thing..

It’s really not that simple of a thing..
If you use the left arm pit, that is generally good practice, but with people moving all over the place with their spines these days, thanks to some of the modern theorists, it’s more important to determine where is that arm pit low point at impact..

Next we need to have proper pivot acceleration so that proper lowpoint HAPPENS and is not just a guess or anything contrived.

I am opposed to a lot of the TGM instruction that encourages big divot forced FLW as if the ground is some kind of impact bag.
This is not why I use an impact bag!

An accelerating pivot, with the proper hand action will create a proper hitters FLW. Then once you have that, it’s not that hard to find your low point..

Your divots then really tell you a lot..

When I am really striking it well, I can start the ball 5 yards right of the target with a divot that looks like I started it 5 yards left of the target. The divots fly left but the ball starts slightly right of target.
That is the best feeling in the golf swing world.

So yes, the low point will appear to be slightly left, although it is really an illusion because of the inclined plane of the golf swing.

Until you learn this, golf will still be a guessing game.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Junior
Feb 25 2009 21:06
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PS – thank you too Mashie, that was great advice also acceptance is important in all life endeavours.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

KOC
Feb 26 2009 00:10
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Lag,

Johnny Miller said at the 70s, he is the only guy who was tested his clubhead speed was faster after impact…than at impact Any idea?

rt1
Feb 26 2009 00:46
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BIO,

Where coaches and student hit brick walls is when a student stops progressing it's neither the golf coaches teaching or the students ability to learn, the underlaying problem is movement pattern issues. Get ths sorted then the teacher and student can carry on their journey progressing to the level they are striving for.

I know what you mean . I think. I have hit the wall wiith my coach (when I was actively pursuing professional golf) many times. This is fascinating stuff. Please answer this..is movements patterns the same thing as tendencies? We use that word a lot in teaching. Do you believe it is possible to change someone’s tendency with repition , for example swinging in front of a mirror for the student to get instant feedback on technique?

My important question is if movement patterns and tendencies are the same.

Thanks..

Styles
Feb 26 2009 01:27
Page 84

BPGS1. I have had Zen Golf by Dr Joseph Parent since January – about the same day that my local course has been knocked out by flooding. So, apart from 9 holes last week (3 days of dry – it's now wet again), haven't really been able to put into practice what I've read. But I think this sort of thing will make a big difference to me and others like me who tend to over analyse their game and the risk in front of us on the course.

This may not be the best book on Zen principles as they apply to golf but it reinforces the concept of imagining the shot/putt and letting your trained body take over. We've all had that feeling where we ’Äúsee” the shot (or line of the putt) and step up and do it with a positive mindset and for some reason the ball seems to be on a string. That is what I'm after every shot as I know my consistency will be much better as I'll get the best out of my particular swing.

re this post, Jim, what do you think is the best Zen book on golf?

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Mashie72
Feb 26 2009 02:55
Page 84

AB,
You're welcome. It must be extreme pressure to perform well in your competitions because I assume they don't happen that frequently during the year.

Lag,
Thanks for your detailed explanation. I can picture, feel and do it in my swing for the normal soft draw. I truly appreciate getting this far along in development. Not sure if I have the picture yet for the fade. If I rotate my plane line closed, implement the same low point geometry, and play the ball slightly forward as posted earlier, I see the ball starting left of my target and hooking…Not trying to learn everything in one session just want to clearly practice the right stuff

BPGS1
Feb 26 2009 05:26
Page 84

Jim, what do you think is the best Zen book on golf?

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

My book, due out this summer. All of the well known golf mental game books, even those with a Zen slant, have some big weaknesses in my opinion. Probably the best book on empty mind/Zen application to sports performance is Dr. Eugene Herrigel’s “Zen in the Art of Archery” written back around 1960. He spent several years living in Japan, studying Zen and Japanese archery with a really wise teacher. The whole relationship of mastering technqiue to then moving to the next level and letting go of technique concerns is explained beautifully.

My problem with a lot of the golf mental game books is that they get bogged down with a lot of New Age nonsense. Also that there is way too much “you should do this” and way too little “how to do it” on a practical level, kind of like Rt1’s experience with Dr. Bob’s advice to “not care”. Meditation practice in the most basic way is cultivating an attitude of acceptance and “not caring” what happens. I asked one of mentors many years ago, J Krishnamurti, a well known mystic and philosopher, some would say a truly enlightened being (in the Buddhist sense of the term), how his enlightened mind was different than the mind of an ordinary person, and he said “I don’t care what happens to me. I accept whatever happens in this moment. You DO care what happens to you.”.

Any book on NLP – Neuro-Linguistic Programming, will help a golfer with a practical understanding of how his mind works. Once you understand how it works, and can observe it working in action, that is the first step to learning how to control your “state” – thoughts, emotions, attitudes, feelings, perceptions and also body movement patterns. Mind control comes first before body control. Much golf instruction has that equation backwards.

I have many students who when they first come to work with me have such poor mental focus and such poor body awareness, that even when they mentally understand what it is I want them to do with body, mind and club – they can’t do it. The mind/body connection just is not there.

The key to golf peak performance – if I had to pick just one thing – is the cultivation of awareness. Awareness makes you a better learner, better practicer, better performer. It is the foundation of insight, which is the key that unlocks the door. How do you expand awareness? Self-observation, meditation and concentration practice. As golfers, we are lucky because we can practice mediation while hitting balls on the range, or chipping on the short game area, or putting on the practice green. It’s a lot more fun than sitting in the lotus position, facing a wall, and following your breath for eight hours a day. Trust me, I’ve done both, and hitting balls wins by a mile!

Styles
Feb 26 2009 05:45
Page 84

Your Zen approach will be one aspect of your book then?

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

BPGS1
Feb 26 2009 06:18
Page 84

Yes, my approach is a blend of Zen, NLP, cognitive therapy, Neuroscience.

Bio
Feb 26 2009 08:18
Page 84

BPS,
so you found NLP , to work very well ? I had looked into a little bit and never persued it.
Do you think it’s worth while for a coach to do NLP?

This is interesting to hear from someone who has used it first hand, what sort of results did you see in a player?

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

Bio
Feb 26 2009 09:07
Page 84

RT1,
Posture and set up, mirror works well, changing plane no.
we do have guys work in front of a mirror doing movement patterns drills,although this is only to give awarness of the movement what it feels like when you get it right. You can’t change a movement pattern in slow motion or not underload.

The only way you can change movement patterns is underload,
We have hundreds of porgressive skills training drills,
We use dynamic and plyometirc training to change the movement patterns. What we found is this is the most effective way is to progressively change a movement pattern.
You have to train the body under the same conditions or speed to re train body motion. The reason is once someone ingrains a poor movement pattern, this becomes a natural movement pattern for them it becomes part of their neurosystem. So doing slow mo drills is goin to change this. You need to shock the system and re program the neurosystem. the only way is plyometrics and dynamic training.
Also we use for pro level is functional training , where you use cross training, yoga, a certain gym training, but not generic stuff doesn’t work,
What we do is measure a player, look at the data and work out a program, then we build a functional program which will build ballistic power,speed and strengthen their movement patterns.
All the gym stuff we do we reserched and measure to see if it creates a kinetic link and improves the movement pattern. Which makes you faster, stronger and have effective movement patterns.

combining both P.S.T and functional training is the most effective way and the fastets way to train more efficent movement patterns.

Greg Norman was a primary example the boys got him cranking, everyone thought ,when he made changes in the early 90’s was mechanics, not all all the boys work very hard with greg and change his movement patterns and he dominated as a result, along with nick price, faldo, ernie els,

The thing is RT golf biomechanics research was started in 1990 at the american sports medical institute ,the guy I understudy started golf research this is where it all started, I have to laugh I must say when people attack us , the research as a starting point they use came from ASMI when they go to uni they are taught biomechanics in golf came from research from ASMI.
The guy I understudied he moved on creating his own company, golf is where they started, we do most sports these days but still heavily involed with golf as primary focus. Take a look at recent results watch Angela park,morgan presel,candie chung and amy hung go now they are cranking now although only half way there.

Clowns like T.P.I bag us but where did they get there research and basist from us. I have to laugh. One thing which breaks my heart though is they are doing generic stuff which is terrible. They devise programs which are generic, but what they haven’t worked out yet we are individuals, I can’t help but laught you sign in ,fill out a form and then you can print out a training program are these guys for real.

RT1, you would have hit brick walls with your coach and this could have been movement patterns issues. Although what is scary is how good you could have been if what we have today was available to you, how far could have you gone if you had awesome kinetic link. This is what seperated Norman from the rest in the 90’s. But mate everyone has some form of movement issues which you can continue to perfect. Greg was a freak and he perfected his, his kinetic links towards the end was near on perfect.
I see players on T.V all the time and I bleed, I think if I could get my hands on you how far could you go.
My end it’s about the athlete I love helping people and pushing them beyond their expectations and seeing how far they can go, it’s awesome fun and so rewarding see people achieving dreams and goals. The other day the boys helped a guy set a new 55yards sprint record, he had injuires etc, we fixed him up, trained him improved his movement patterns, now he’s cranking, next question is how fast he this dude be

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

Styles
Feb 26 2009 10:40
Page 84

BPS,
so you found NLP , to work very well ? I had looked into a little bit and never persued it.
Do you think it's worth while for a coach to do NLP?

This is interesting to hear from someone who has used it first hand, what sort of results did you see in a player?

Bio, I have found the best approach to NLP is to buy a good book on it (I like Tony Robbins) and read up on it yourself. There are a ton of charlatans out there who will sell you a course on NLP and give you a title of ‘master practitioner’. The ‘qualification’ is BS mate, there is no exam or anything like that at all.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

BPGS1
Feb 26 2009 11:17
Page 84

Bio – yes, wonderful results with NLP, good for changing any behavior, not just golfers. My buddy Doug Hixson won the Northwest Open back in 1996 after just one three hour NLP session we did together, credited that session for his win. Styles – It is possible to do an intensive legitimate training in NLP, I did mine in 94 at NLP Institute of Oregon, nine three day, all day boot camps, over nine months plus a ton or reading,study and practice. And there were many exams!

NLP is really a form of psychotherapy that expanded out to become a way of learning/teaching, and a way of improving interpersonal communication and also intra-personal as well, how to get your subconscious and conscious minds to have an effective dialogue.

There have been some tour pros who have used NLP principles, including Woosnam. You guys may remember Chuck Hogan, back in late eighties and early ninties was pretty big on Tour with his mental game seminars. His stuff was all NLP.

Bio – I like your comments on slow mo vs. dynamic. I have found slow mo extremely effective for learning new patterns, but I agree once a bad habit is formed, you need more dynamic motion to change it quickly. I have used a blend of NLP techniques and resistance/isometric stuff to start that change with students. Having resistance seems to raise awareness in the muscles involved.

We also do very extreme opposite movement drills at half speed, slow mo and full speed to break the old pattern. Sometimes we have to get in there and move the arm, or leg, or hip or shoulder in the range of motion and direction we want, because the student just does not have the existing neuromuscular pathway to begin to do the new pattern.

Deep prolonged stretching similar to Yoga and especially Pilates I have found to be really helpful in breaking old patterns as well.

dap
Feb 26 2009 12:17
Page 84

Jim,

Nice website.Always enjoyed your posts.Very informative.Look forward to your book.

rt1
Feb 26 2009 12:26
Page 84

BIO,

I am all ears. Where can I start? How do I find someone in the states that offers similar training? Sound like BPGS1 may be a place to start.

I appreciate you sharing this. The athlete is becoming more efficient with movements ..I am certain has a great deal to do with biomech. study.

Teach this old dog a new trick ..anything you could provide. Where to start with a training center and reputable expert.

rt1
Feb 26 2009 13:13
Page 84

BIO,

Did some research..I have a better idea of what you mean. Fascinating stuff. Will be interested in tying that in to my personal training and coaching.

Bio
Feb 26 2009 13:21
Page 85

RT1,
Biomechanics is the key, this is the other side of the coin which golf has been missing, but give me 5 years and hopefully it’s available work wide to any golfer and golf coach.
I have just finished a training centre here in OZ and once we get this right we are taking them world wide , but not only golf all sports. The boys are building one over there as well.
In the future I’ll be in the states more often, visting players
email me on my personal email adress bome77atbigpond.com
@
and I can put you in contact with someone or you can attend a
3 day boot camp we have in the states for talented players like yourself.

BPS that’s interesting stuff, not a feild i’m in but would interesting to look at N.L.P could help out alot of players and coaches.

I think this is where people become confused I’m not sure where T.P.I’s heads are at trying to re invent the wheel with this kinematics stuff.
As your aware the data only indicated the problems, what we focus on is training programs to change movement patterns which makes us unique to other biomechanics companies.

It great to hear your using dynamics training etc that’s good to hear. now all you and I have to do is show the rest of the golfing world this is the way to go for the future and we might see more tigers out there.
P.S and get them educated then need to be screened with biomechanics as well, to find out their issues

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

SoulmanZ
Feb 26 2009 14:07
Page 85

bio are there any general drills and things like that you could recommend, not generic patterns but drills that promote good body motion? or does it all need to be individualised?

Bio
Feb 26 2009 16:26
Page 85

Soulman,
I couldn’t tell u unless i screened someone to see what their movement patterns are. each person is individualised so each p.st is designed for each individual.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

Wilkie
Feb 26 2009 17:21
Page 85

Bio said :-
This is what separated Norman from the rest in the 90's. But mate everyone has some form of movement issues which you can continue to perfect. Greg was a freak and he perfected his, his kinetic links towards the end was near on perfect.

I’m glad to see the mental side of golf being discussed as it was Norman’s mind that allowed Faldo to beat him by 11 strokes in the last round of the ‘96 Masters.

And his mind control that allowed him to come back afterwards.

oldmanpar
Feb 26 2009 22:50
Page 85

BPS1,
I have no problem with Rob, he's a great guy Jim and Rob had some great stuff, but then everyone went to town on them.
There was stuff in his triple x factor that was wishy washy although he also had some great information as well.
The stuff which was wishy washy I understood what he was saying but for the average bear this was misinterpreted.
On Jim's behalf this was a tough job to try and explain everything in a short article and the full story can't be explained so information was missing which lead to confusion.
Which lead to everyone attacking them, I felt for the boys.
One slight mistake Jim should have explained the mechanics and Rob explain the biomechanics so people didn't get confused and this lead to their down fall.

One thing which was badly explained was the downswing sequence, I understood what Jim was trying to say, but he couldn't put this into words which I can relate too. If you went and visted Rob and he demonstrated in person would be totally different to how this was presented in writing.
Rob is a great guy and is doing some great research.
They have a tough job combining mechanics with biomechanics and this is where the confusion is. In one respect there is not very many people that understand body motion and the science behind it.
So when a reader picks up a magzine he thinks mechanics, recipe for disaster

BPS i have no quarms with you as you said 30 to 40 degrees can be misinterpreted and will be by readers this is my point.
Look what happen to Jim and Rob.

This is the reason why I don't get into the science here if I don't communicate this correctly it leads to confusion misunderstanding and I could injury someone. There is theory and practical. The theory is only theory. To make the theory work in practice you have to train movement patterns through dynamics and progressive skills training.

20 years ago they worked out how the body motion works in a golfswing, data is old news. Data is data ok now what, ’Äúok how do you train movements patterns”.
Honestly who cares about the data, I know I don't, the primary focus is finding ways to train people how to improve movement patterns.

Ok Dudes this is the thing there is no swing models, each athlete is different we all have different movement patterns. But some are more effective then others. Now from research from so many different biomechanists there is a kinetic link and no one disputes this. The kinetic link is the most effective movement pattern. Not only in golf in most sports.
Let's take a look Greg Norman, Nick Price, Ernie Els and Nick faldo all have fantastic kinetic links, they all have simular movement patterns, although there swings all look different, the reason is they swing mechanics are different. Also they are individuals and no one swings the same.
The problem with golf is we are all teaching generic stuff instead of teaching and training a player as an individual athlete.
As The players above prove as long as you have the right movement patterns you can swing the club how ever you like.
S&T is generic, Edwin generic this is why they only work for very few.
Get the person movement patterns right then build the mechancs which work for them, not some geneirc bullSh..t

bio that has to be the best post you have ever provided thank you for that information seriously

Beezneeds
Feb 27 2009 03:47
Page 85

Anyone looking into NLP I recommend a read of ‘Derren Brown: Trick Of The Mind’.

Got a great perspective on how it works in a limited way but very strong on how people tend to overstate the case for it quite a lot.

NLP is not magic – but there is some insight in there.

chadale
Feb 27 2009 07:14
Page 85

Hey Guys,

Reading from Toronto, Canada. Just wanted to say that I really appreciate the intelligent discussion in this forum. My instructor recently turned me onto this thread, its been very valuable in helping me to understand the principals presented in TGM better.

I will disappear back into the shadows now, I doubt I have much to add to this discussion unless someone wants to get back into the physics debate :) ha.

Cheers,
Chad.

iseekgolfguru
Feb 27 2009 09:47
Page 85

Welcome Chad. Who is your coach??

chadale
Feb 27 2009 10:38
Page 85

Nick Starchuk

iseekgolfguru
Feb 27 2009 10:46
Page 85

This world keeps getting smaller.

chadale
Feb 27 2009 11:43
Page 85

It seems the world of TGM is pretty insular. I know quite a few golfers but Nick is the only one that I could talk TGM with without eyes glazing over and people looking at wrist watches. Seems the bulk of my playing friends are content to get their swings from Golf Digest and Golf.com.

iseekgolfguru
Feb 27 2009 11:51
Page 85

Yet in places like this people get to see that TGM is not that hard once you understand a few of the terms that Homer laid out for all to use.

I only ready golf mags for the travel areas these days….and I never buy one:)

lagpressure
Feb 27 2009 15:41
Page 85

KOC,

I have heard that about Johnny Miller too, that the impact of the ball did nothing to slow down the club.. it certainly is possible, a lot of that has to do with the weight of the ball..

You could certainly drive a car or even better a drag racer through a pile of ping pong balls without the car slowing down..

I’m sure there is a physics formula for it.. how much acceleration, force, would have to be applied to have the effect of an impact collision completely negated..

The bottom line is, if you keep your focus on this kind of intention, you just can’t go wrong..

It’s just so easy to get too far off track when talking about the backswing, especially the set up, the backswing.. taking it back on plane, the position at the top, where the right elbow should be at P1 or even P2…

I am not saying that setup is not important, but unless it really has great active intention for impact dynamics, you can waste months years, decades of you time trying to master the Hogan or Faldo, or Tiger set up and really make zero improvement for actually striking a golf ball..

I always work my students or myself from impact real time dynamics first… then move post impact… once you age getting somewhere at that point, it’s amazing how naturally everything preceding will change without you having to touch it…

The standard approach of …start with grip, stance and posture at address…. is good for beginners 101, that’s about it..

Home said “to start at one end of the machine or the other, either the hands or the feet, preferably the feet..”

I think that is good advice, but even better to start with them both together, and right from impact..

Someone on here a while back on one of these threads talked about working with an instructor for a year, and they never got past the top of the backswing…

That makes as much sense to me as stripping and re painting your car with a fancy base coat, clear coat finish, then putting the motor into the car….after you shined up and polished the wheels..

Get the greasy messy stuff out of the way first, then worry about cosmetics..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

chadale
Feb 27 2009 21:55
Page 85

Lag,

The equation would be pretty simple: the amount of force required to replace the momentum lost by the club to the ball would be roughly the force required to accelerate the ball from standstill to its separation velocity. I say roughly because presumably you’ve made ground contact (and lost momentum to the ground) and friction and other factors come into play.

I don’t see how doing precise calculation of this would greatly benefit anyone though. I certainly doubt it helps me to better play the game of golf.

Whitednj
Feb 27 2009 22:45
Page 85

Don’t forget gravity. It plays a part in the accelleration equation while the club head is still moving towards the centre of the planet.

dap
Feb 27 2009 23:46
Page 85

Lag,

Johnny Miller said at the 70s, he is the only guy who was tested his clubhead speed was faster after impact…than at impact Any idea?

KOC,

You don’t give up easy do you?lol

As lag said,the clubhead is not hitting a ping pong ball.The weight of the golf ball is around 45g.The weight of the clubhead is 200g.

Picture your car hitting a full grown cow head on at 100mph!

darthvader
Feb 28 2009 00:13
Page 85

Lag,

Johnny Miller said at the 70s, he is the only guy who was tested his clubhead speed was faster after impact…than at impact Any idea?

KOC,

You don't give up easy do you?lol

As lag said,the clubhead is not hitting a ping pong ball.The weight of the golf ball is around 45g.The weight of the clubhead is 200g.

Picture your car hitting a full grown cow head on at 100mph!

Yes Dap ..LOL.
Miller was taking airswings same as a few others around here

chadale
Feb 28 2009 00:38
Page 85

Yes, cannot forget gravity.

Which brings on the point I felt when the physics discussion raged… the precise mathematical model of a golf swing through impact is far to complex to discuss here. Thats not my allusion to know it either, I have a math degree so if I cared enough I am sure I could find/make sense of it, but I neither care enough to know these details to such precision nor do I think its at all relevant to playing the game.

Lag, I have a question for you, you transitioned from being a swinger to a hitter, I am likely going to slowly undertake the same transition under my coaches guidance. Can you give any tips as to how to most efficiently make such a change?

Also, I applaud you for your stance on modern equipment. I’m not very good at the game, but I chose a blade/semi-cav set of irons for the reasons you preach: feel/feedback and honesty. I am actually just starting to test out a full blade set (previous gen Nike Blades, 3-PW). Do you ever play with modern woods/drivers? The reason I ask is, would you do so if you tried to qualify for a US Open with its extreme length?

Bio
Feb 28 2009 03:24
Page 85

Ok boys ,
Talking about how much decel the ball cause on the club head at impact
if you included the physics of human motion laws and pyhsics
you can probably figure out some sort of basic idea theoritically…
Impossible to accurately measure unless you are sampling at some massive rate like 5000fps…
The decel would be so minute, almost impossible to detect…
And the biggest question really is, who the hell cares

The decleration which most golfers face is movement patterns , from poor movement patterns losing C.O.M and SSC not cause of ball collision. come on

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

lagpressure
Feb 28 2009 07:00
Page 85

Chadale,

Lag, I have a question for you, you transitioned from being a swinger to a hitter, I am likely going to slowly undertake the same transition under my coaches guidance. Can you give any tips as to how to most efficiently make such a change?

The short version:
More than likely you’ll need to go from a feeling of slow and smooth, and relaxed, to tight, short, quick, firm and aggressive…

The longer version:
You’ll need to completely re train your muscles both in strength, but even more important, in their firing order.. It’s not so different from changing the firing order of the pistons in a car. There is an order to these things, and they must be right..

Hitting can be very simple and range from the “not too practical” to the highly advanced “Ferrari version”..

If you’re ever interested in the later, shoot me an email at
www.lagpressure@yahoo.com">lagpressure@yahoo.com

As far as the US Open..

I’ll go as I promised a few here, and for those who missed the story it’s a fun read..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

darthvader
Feb 28 2009 12:14
Page 85

Chadale,

Lag, I have a question for you, you transitioned from being a swinger to a hitter, I am likely going to slowly undertake the same transition under my coaches guidance. Can you give any tips as to how to most efficiently make such a change?

The short version:
More than likely you'll need to go from a feeling of slow and smooth, and relaxed, to tight, short, quick, firm and aggressive…

The longer version:
You'll need to completely re train your muscles both in strength, but even more important, in their firing order.. It's not so different from changing the firing order of the pistons in a car. There is an order to these things, and they must be right..

Hitting can be very simple and range from the ’Äúnot too practical” to the highly advanced ’ÄúFerrari version”..

If you're ever interested in the later, shoot me an email at

I'll go as I promised a few here, and for those who missed the story it's a fun read..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lagpressure
Did you chase the ladies when you were on the touring scene?
How many distractions did you deal with?

KOC
Feb 28 2009 13:23
Page 85

Dap,

Bored?

lagpressure
Feb 28 2009 16:04
Page 85

Oh, no..

I never chased the ladies…
Being single, 23, great sponsors…

I made sure I putted for at least 3 hours on the carpet in the hotel room
before going to bed at 9 pm, even if I missed the cut after Friday’s round.

I couldn’t possibly keep up with the Aussie players drinking VB’s in the pub, or a bucket of Cooper’s ale.

Just ask Brad King.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Whitednj
Feb 28 2009 19:55
Page 85

Lag, there will be a lot of us old timers who’ll follow your quest with great interest. Now that I’m in my 50s and following a long lay-off I’ve succumbed to the TM hype and have their r7 irons and burner woods in my bag. Without them I’d never get my game back to a competitive level – I just don’t have the time (or the game, frankly). Go for it mate and all power to you.

dap
Feb 28 2009 20:07
Page 85

Dap,

Bored?

Very bored,but not as much as you are persistent,dogmatic and stubborn.lol

Read the book again.Even Homer did not say accelerating past impact is possible.He only said to minimise deceleration.

KOC
Mar 01 2009 00:25
Page 86

Dap,

You don’t know what I knew. I read that and other books regarding that long long time ago! Homer said zero deceleration! I don’t believe clubhead speed can really “accelerate” through impact…though that might be a good thought for golfers who quit at the ball. Yes, I am persistent, but not domatic and stubborn.

BTW, I also think that we are talking golf swing, no need to use those adjectives on me.

darthvader
Mar 01 2009 00:48
Page 86

Oh, no..

I never chased the ladies…
Being single, 23, great sponsors…

I made sure I putted for at least 3 hours on the carpet in the hotel room
before going to bed at 9 pm, even if I missed the cut after Friday's round.

I couldn't possibly keep up with the Aussie players drinking VB's in the pub, or a bucket of Cooper's ale.

Just ask Brad King.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lagpressure
Do you prefer the dark side

dap
Mar 01 2009 09:27
Page 86

Dap,

You don't know what I knew. I read that and other books regarding that long long time ago! Homer said zero deceleration! I don't believe clubhead speed can really ’Äúaccelerate” through impact…though that might be a good thought for golfers who quit at the ball. Yes, I am persistent, but not domatic and stubborn.

BTW, I also think that we are talking golf swing, no need to use those adjectives on me.

If you didn’t really believe that you could accelerate past impact,then why did you mention Johnny Miller??

Now that you brought it up,I hope you realise Homer contradicted himself when he used the unscientific term “zero deceleration”.What do you think he means by this?

Styles
Mar 01 2009 09:38
Page 86

Lagpressure
Did you chase the ladies when you were on the touring scene?
How many distractions did you deal with?

It must be burning you up Tai, to keep your insults as veiled as you’re managing.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

lagpressure
Mar 01 2009 16:47
Page 86

Tom Wishon apparently was in the back room at the Hogan factory back in the 1980’s and was able to take a look at Hogan’s personal set.

He mentioned many things, but in particular, he said Hogan used shafts that were extremely stiff, far beyond X100’s and tipped a ton, and he would still use these even into his golden years when he would occasionally go out and hit balls.

He was as big on acceleration as anyone, and I’m sure he felt that super stiff shafts would help resist the impact forces. It would make sense to me, and I’m not one that would spend a lot of time second guessing Hogan.

Super flat, super stiff, and super heavy….

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Bio
Mar 01 2009 18:33
Page 86

Ok boys,
Who cares really, the primary goal is to create as much club acceleration as you can and the optimum goal is for peak acceleration to occur at impact. Who cares after that the ball has gone.
Why the hell would you want to accelerate after impact for, the ball is gone, what a waste of energy !!!!which could have been dumped on the ball.
I’m not sure where you all get your info from but the deceleration the ball has on the club decelerating is vertually impossible to detect. Beacuse the ball has minute effect on the club head.
It’s the body motion causing the club head speed to slow down,
(the motor of the golfswing.) Not the golf ball. Seriously come on boys think about it.
I’m sorry but homer was wrong in his mathematics here cause he didn’t apply the human body physics to the equations, Yeah if you use a robot his theroy migh work, but we aren’t robots so you can’t apply his physics. HOMER IS TALKING MECHANICAL not human science. for club head speeds.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

darthvader
Mar 01 2009 18:49
Page 86

Lagpressure
Did you chase the ladies when you were on the touring scene?
How many distractions did you deal with?

It must be burning you up Tai, to keep your insults as veiled as you're managing.

Its better to stay silent and look a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

Mark Twain

No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an unchartered land,or opened a new heaven to the human spirit

Helen Keller

No if I was Tai ( whoever that is) I would have insulted you already

lagpressure
Mar 03 2009 08:25
Page 86

Bio,

What are your thoughts on weighted clubs?

I have never liked them, for several reasons..
first, golf being a game of feel, I like to swing a golf club, and the feel
of a golf club’s speed and the CF it develops, is in total contrast to
the slower speeds of a weighted club.

I have read several studies that have shown that weighted clubs slow down a players swing speeds.. although I don’t have those studies handy..

I have always noticed I lose distance after swinging, or even lightly warming up with a weighted club.

On the feel end of things.. I like the club to feel heavy in my hands, therefore after swinging a weighted club, the club feels light, and not a feeling I prefer..

anyone else had similar experiences?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Steb
Mar 03 2009 08:35
Page 86

Hopefully Junior can give some insight, but I remember reading in a long-drive forum that the guys training with weighted clubs (or rebar/weighted martial arts staffs as some did) for strength-building started to use different muscles to swing that extra weight, eventually negatively affecting their linking for the unweighted club.

Junior
Mar 03 2009 10:14
Page 86

Okay a couple of opinions I want to put forward but I will divide it into two posts so not to do one mega post! lol

Weighted Clubs:

Indeed lag pressure is correct that studies show that heavier clubs will slow down performance unless they are utilised correctly. Firstly you have to understand how the body operates, the only way to become faster is to train faster movement patterns. The body develops neurological traces for motion performance. By merely swinging a heavier club, you are training your body to swing slower due to the slower speed that you generate with this club. Not to mention technical inefficiencies and motion problems you will train by using something that is heavier. I am a big non believer in heavy weighted clubs. Sure they are good for basic strength building/conditioning and warm up processes but if developing speed is what your goal is, it is a very inefficient way of achieving this goal and can actually be detrimental to the process. And yes as lag pressure said when you switch to normal conditions you lose feel. Just because you feel you swing faster does not mean you actually do, it is merely a perception.

There is a difference between high weight and high resistance training. Resistance is not neccessarily heavier. Fans, club kites, air pros are all devices that do not weigh much more than a golf club but provide more resistance requiring the body to work harder and learn to accelerate. The most simply way to have a high resistance light weight training device is to put an old sock on your driver head and secure it with an elastic band. It weighs nothing but provides resistance (with the foot section being a tail)

To understand this how do we produce speed? Speed is merely the rate of velocity at which we contract our muscles. The faster you can contract a muscle the faster you can move. This DOES NOT rely on strength or how much weight you can lift or swing. Sure better muscular conditioning can enhance the strength a muscle can contract with but it does not increase the speed at which it performs.

3 examples/models of speed without excessive strength:

BRUCE LEE: possible the fastest athlete that has ever lived. Not excessively big, had a great power to weight ratio though. I doubt however he would have ever won a bench press contest. But the speed at which he could contract and inervate muscles was ridiculously good.

USAIN BOLT: 100 metre world record holder. A very small guy in stature compared to sprinters we have seen in the past. (Donovan Baily, Maurice Greene and Ben Johnson as examples) However he moves faster than anyone we have ever seen. Movement is basically a series of muscle contractions, so he has the ability to current contract faster than any other sprinter alive, I doubt though he would have the biggest squat amongst world sprinters though.

JAMIE SADLOWSKI: Standing 5’11 and weighing 75kg he is the biggest hitter of a golf ball currently on the planet. And he outdrives guys who stand 6’5 130kg by 30-40 yards. Why? Speed of movement (as well as good and efficient motion). However he contracts his golfing muscles faster than anybody around. He is strong for his size but I would even be confident if he challenged me to a bench press contest.

You must also include light weight apparatus training (50-90%) of standard competitive weight. This allows to train faster contractions and also neurologically program your body to a new top speed set point. I wont go into the ins and outs of how to best achieve it (some things are after all sacred to me as an athlete still competing. I have learnt not to give all secrets away for free now. I am a qualified sports strength and conditioning coach and do train people but this is a livlihood too – The colonel still hasnt given away the 11 secret herbs and spices has he? hahaha) But I am happy to answer any questions that anybody poses on this subject.

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Junior
Mar 03 2009 10:28
Page 86

okay with regards to lag’s statement on club flex and weight I would like to add my two cents worth:

Super flat, super stiff, and super heavy….

Depending on what your goals are?

Perhaps if your goal is the ultimate in control but not if your goal is to increase distance or hit the ball as far as possible.

To illustrate my belief on this lets talk fishing.

A super heavy, inflexible surf rod VS a lightweight bendy casting rod.

Which rod will allow you to cast the lure the furtherest with the least amount of effort required?

Why are surf rods so much longer than the lightweight casting counterparts? To overcome their inadequencies for distance of cast by providing more torque. If they were the same length, they would go nowhere.

I personally have a preference for lightweight and flexible as I find this gives me a lot more capacity to load and to utilise this where it counts. I also find I dont have to physically work as hard as I would with super heavy, super stiff.

To each their own. I would say though your goals and what you want out of a club performance wise be the dictator of which avenue you take in equipment selection. Also your personal loading pattern and profile will dictate what works best for you personally. I know many LDers who do go the super heavy, super stiff option but they are also incredibly strong and usually very tall. It works for them but not for everyone.

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

wabisabi
Mar 03 2009 10:46
Page 86

If you want to increase your club acceleration any good baseball coach gave give you their routine on increasing bat speed. Just adapt the routine on a different swing plane and weight some old drivers accordingly.

Here’s the first web site I found:

http://www.bigcat844.com/in...

Junior
Mar 03 2009 11:58
Page 86

Is a former national level baseballer.

Sorry wabisabi, it is a very average training program even for baseball! Nothing personal but would prefer if people are going to incorporate baseball training they get it from good sources.

Happy to recommend sources to those that are interested. Didnt want to turn this into a baseball training symposium. lol

I could not provide the actual heavy/light training program that is specific for golf as it is locked to a members only site. However please do not follow a simplistic training regime of heavy/light normal swings. There is more to it to get the actual benefit without ruining your golf technique, in fact doing it correctly will actually teach you where power truly comes from and how to optimise it.

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

lagpressure
Mar 03 2009 12:28
Page 86

“Super flat, super stiff, and super heavy”….

That is what Ben Hogan was operating on golf courses with…

I do think there is great logic to that on all three of those levels..
The only club in the bag we need to hit far is the driver, every other club is meant to go a specific distance, and the wedge shot from 150 is taking the long route having to travel on a much bigger arc compared to a player hitting from the exact same distance with a knock down 5 or 6 iron.. that is the short route..

Interesting posts there Junior, as you would be the one to know..
weighted clubs don’t seem to have great value in golf..

I suppose I wouldn’t want to see a surgeon operating on someone after he just got home from chopping up firewood the day before in the mountains.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Beezneeds
Mar 03 2009 23:10
Page 86

Junior -

Mate, got to pick you up on some matters of fact.

Quoting: “USAIN BOLT: 100 metre world record holder. A very small guy in stature compared to sprinters we have seen in the past. (Donovan Baily, Maurice Greene and Ben Johnson as examples).”

Usain Bolt is 6’5 (6’6 according to some sources) and has huge, obvious muscle definition. He’s taller than all three of the other guys you mention. Donovan Bailey is 6’0, Maurice Greene is 5’9 and Ben Johnson is 5’11.

He does, however, take less strides per race than any sprinter ever (something like 42?), and very quickly he does it too!

Junior
Mar 03 2009 23:33
Page 86

Beezneeds:

Thanks for that, I will also clarify that I was referring to build or else we could bring up another tall sprinter Carl Lewis? Yes long levers is an advantage but you need to learn how to use them quickly.

A lot of basketballers are just as tall with similar builds as Carl Lewis and Usain Bolt, who would win a foot race?

If you dont train specifically for what you are trying to do, no matter how strong, tall or muscular you are, someone who has trained themselves (body and mind) to go faster then you do will always win a battle of speed. The other charecteristics are bonuses to have, not guarantees…

;)

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Styles
Mar 03 2009 23:37
Page 86

cheers Beez, I spotted that too!

I too have read studies that suggest using a heavy club is detrimental

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Beezneeds
Mar 03 2009 23:42
Page 86

Usain Bolt has it all: long levers, fast twitch and really powerful muscles – you can see them.

Carl Lewis: 6’2 – a slimmer guy but he had enough power to manage his speed.

Fast twitch allied to powerful arms and a powerful core are the essentials of sprinting.

The basketball guys are different – the attributes they have are why they excell at their sports.

Big muscles are heavy, and those guys need to fly through the air (some of ‘em anyway)!

Could Usain reach the rim!?

Anyway – back to topic!

Styles
Mar 03 2009 23:44
Page 86

Not to get too far off topic but I have heard that the basketball guys do very little CV as it is detrimental to their jumping.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Daves
Mar 03 2009 23:47
Page 86
Could Usain reach the rim!?

almost undoubtedly if he is 6’5”. According to Wikipedia he weighs around 86kgs, so fairly light for his height.

BBtB

Ho’ing Vision UVs since 2008:)

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

http://www.redlandbaygolf.c...

Junior
Mar 03 2009 23:56
Page 86

I would put money on Usain touching the rim… Could Carl Lewis jump?

You might think that is off the point Beez but I am also allowed to question your logic especially since I am trained in this field. Great athletes are great athletes.

I didnt say they weren’t quick, I bet they’d beat us in a foot race!! lol

Could Usain jump as high as Michael Jordan? Probably not.. Could Jordan out run Usain?

Train for what you do and the top was speed and the value of weighted clubs. If your goal is bigger golf muscles swing away? 3 reps of 8-12 I hear is good. If you want to hit it further you need to learn to move quicker. I would rather a golfer stretch than lift weights.

Fast twitch allied to powerful arms and a powerful core are the essentials of any sport or athlete. Let’s not forget posterior chain and Freedom of motion (not range). You can swing short and fast, you can swing long and slow. You cant intentionally swing freely and go at your slowest.

But that is another topic.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Styles
Mar 03 2009 23:58
Page 86

well said junior

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Junior
Mar 04 2009 00:13
Page 86

Thanks Styles, am just happy golf is catching up… golfers are athletes too, look at one T. Woods, they are finally training like athletes not bodybuilders. This is training for performance. I am reasonably confident that Tiger could do many other things of great athleticism. He is a great athlete.

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Beezneeds
Mar 04 2009 01:20
Page 86

Usain comment was a bit of a joke – he more than likely could!

Carl Lewis was an Olympic Champion long jumper but at 6’2 well…...maybe.

My “logic” is fine! It’s just a few facts really!

RE: topic, I felt I was taking it off topic as much as anyone.

Great athletes are great athletes but such are the top level demands from sport to sport that it is rare for anyone to switch well from one to the other.

Certain bodies are exceptionally suited to certain sports.

As for golf ‘catching up’, I don’t really go along with that.

Golf is what it is…..

As for Tiger, rumour has it that a) he is a poor basketballer and b) he is not a particularly fast runner…..

Mashie72
Mar 04 2009 01:37
Page 86

Junior

Great Posts..

For developing the fast twitch muscles, are there some benefits to be gained in quickness through isometric exercises? If so in keeping with the theme of this thread, do you have any specific exercise recommendations? Such as holding a club @ impact or holding P4 against a doorjamb for 10 seconds.

Thanks for the info

Bio
Mar 04 2009 01:41
Page 87

Lag,
It’s something we are looking more into, something which was interesting, was if some one has a club way to long for them this can effect their movement patterns in a negative way.
What we have also found is anything 8% heavier for than normal weight for each club, effected movement patterns and their movement patterns weren’t as effective.
Swing speeds weren’t affected as much although did have an impact.

In reguards to other sports , movement patterns all have a kinetic link it all starts from the ground, Jumping and running has a relationship and this is why carl lewis was good at both.
It’s all about the push, pull and SSC , and training these to be more effective, strong, faster. Which is pacific training is involved.
And a golfer should train just as hard as a runner or any other sport.
Since I’ve been trainig my SSC I’ve gained 25 metres , two club difference.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

rt1
Mar 04 2009 01:45
Page 87

JUNIOR,

Your two post on club speed and training are IMO and I am sure others, perhaps the best info I have seen on this forum..period. EXTREMELY useful and something we can all attempt to move towards.

It gives me some insight into how much more we all need to study the correct golf training exercise. I appreciate you clarifying some of this for us. Add more anytime !!

I sent you an e-mail to the address you gave me several pages back..Did you get it ? Let me know what you plans are..

Again, incredible info ..thanks

Beezneeds
Mar 04 2009 02:00
Page 87

Bio – re: Carl Lewis – is jumping up the same as jumping across?

rt1
Mar 04 2009 02:20
Page 87

JUNIOR,

You must also include light weight apparatus training (50-90%) of standard competitive weight. This allows to train faster contractions and also neurologically program your body to a new top speed set point

Could you explain what 50-90% of standard competitive weight is? Not sure what you are referring to as competitive weight..is that perhaps the weight of the club?

Junior
Mar 04 2009 10:47
Page 87

Mashie:

From a strength and conditioning coaching point of view I seriously believe in training for the requirements of the sport (and what you want to achieve in that sport). I have had the opportunity to work with a lot of high profile athletes from a variety of sports and some of the top strength and conditioning experts in Australia. One thing always strikes me when observing these guys train is that they dont do anything that won’t benefit their performance directly.

For example: A bench press is a great conditioning exercise and always a favourite amongst any gym goer. But will it translate in assisting to hit a golf ball further? If you did a close grip version, possibly in increasing your tricep extension strength, however there are exercises we can use that are more effective and more easily transferrable into a golf specific performance capacity – an example would be using a lat pull down machine with a rope attachment, facing away from the weight stack in a golfing posture and pulling down mimicking the golf down swing. This exercise would then give us tricep extension development that is functional to what we use them for in the downswing. But at the same time it would also train the abdominal stability and resistance capacity when we pull down, it will teach and enhance our stretch and the maintaining of this stretch into the downswing, it will increase our ground force production by the feet and legs having to stabilise to pull the weight through and will give us strength benefits in lats, legs, abdominals and forearms in addition. One exercise giving us all these benefits allows us greater training efficiency as well as a direct carry over to usuable strength we use in our golf swing. The key is more holistic training rather than dividing into parts and training each section as an individual entity. The body doesnt work this way in movement so we should not train this way.

Isometrics can be beneficial like the ones you listed, not only from a conditioning perspective but to educate your senses as to the natural way the body functions and where power is produced. This can be a light bulb moment for many people.

Other things I will personally utilise are resitance bands which develop elastic strength. Also the load increases as you perform motion rather than just with free weights which have a certain load range and then a no load range once passed a “sticking point”. This is why I will favour cables and elastic over free weights for golf specific training.

The final important perspective that I was trying to allude to is training you body’s capacity to move quicker. The body has a ‘set point’ or a speed it is used to performing at. In order to get speed increases we must teach the body that it can go faster. This will enable us to build into a new capacity through conditioning work.

Ever wonder why sprinters run downhill or get towed in overspeed training? They are increasing their brain’s capacity to move faster than it ever has.

Conditioning is a balancing act for what you want to achieve.

Hope that helps.

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

Junior
Mar 04 2009 11:07
Page 87

RT1

No mate I didnt get an email from you. I have had some problems with receiving email of late. Please know if I dont reply within a day or two, I havent received it. Send again mate but type in address as the links via the website seem to be a problem for some reason, I have not received a number of emails from people doing this.

Strength and Conditioning for sports, particularly speed/power development is a passion of mine and is what I am actually qualified in. Enhancing the abilities of human body performance is a fascinating topic. And I am always happen to answer questions on it. How bout I start a new thread as this is lag’s domain (Im sure Guru will encourage us to do this) and I will happily discuss any golf specific training topic or question? We can all then have discussions on different areas regarding golf and athletic strength and conditioning. I will open it today after this response.

Briefly 50-90% of competition load refers to exactly as you took it. When I trained under the Westside Powerlifting protocols with an elite Australian Powerlifting team, I was introduced to Dynamic Effort training. Basically the guys do max weight sessions and dynamic or speed sessions. Let’s say a guy’s competitive bench press is 300 lbs. On a speed day they will use 150-195 lbs and move it as fast a possible. Basically training muscular acceleration.

How much does a golf club weigh? Let’s say driver… say 320g give or take? This represents our competitive weight or what we need to use in our performance. So a speed training weight for this competitive weight would therefore be in the vicinity of anywhere between 160g – 285g. This will be where you can learn to produce and train you body’s capacity for speed production. I have developed the perfect tool for this and it is dead easy to make for yourself. Email me and I will give you some insight as to how to make one up. I had thought of producing one commercially but this is an expensive process and requires financial backing so it is on the back burner for now lol.

Hope that helps. Thanks for the compliments. I will move this to a new thread is “ask guru”

Junior

It is quite possible that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

lagpressure
Mar 04 2009 15:40
Page 87

Thanks Junior,

That all makes sense..

I find strength in the golf swing to also be very important for gaining accuracy and control of the golf club… most people think of strength in golf only to be to a gain of distance..

The stronger I am, the shorter I can swing and minimize hand travel for any given shot.. shorter, meaning less hand travel, not pivot rotation.

This is often an area of confusion. Most golfers when they think of taking a shorter backswing, they over shorten their pivot turn, and then find a huge power loss.. so they go back to the longer arm swing, which may feel longer, but actually is not.

Hogan, Moe and Trevino are excellent studies relating to this concept.

The longer the backswing, the farther the arms travel back, the more you open the door for unnecessary timing elements and having to rely on perfect rhythm, tempo and all those lovely things..

I used to love to watch Ian Woosnam when I played on tour, as he really made the golf swing look very simple and easy.. he was a fine example of what great golf could look like.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Bio
Mar 04 2009 18:17
Page 87

Isometric training, go for it if you want to be stronger and slower.
It’s not about physical strength it’s about training the right muscles and creating a faster SSC, you want your SSC to be stronger and faster, Not bulky and slower and from years of research , can assure you, doing isometirc training will not achieve this.
In golf you don’t use isometrics cycle in the golf swing.

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

RiddleFace
Mar 04 2009 19:01
Page 87

Bio,

How do you create a faster SSC?

Whitednj
Mar 04 2009 19:51
Page 87

“The colonel still hasnt given away the 11 secret herbs and spices has he? hahaha)”

Junior, I’m going to swap you the Colonel’s secret formular and I expect you to give us even more in return …

Secret spice #1 – pepper
Secret spice #2 – salt
Secret spice #3 …. Secret spice #11 – see #2

And this does not include some of the extra “spices” us teenage cooks used to add just for more flavour (eg dirty finger nails, sweat, greasy hair strands, etc).

So there you have it. Don’t tell anyone else as it’s just between you and me.

Bio
Mar 04 2009 20:42
Page 87

Beenez,
Vertical jump has a simular relationship to jumping forward,
Screening athletes , in either jumps there is a simular movement pattern, one thing which can effect a jump forwards is the push pull cycle from running due to movement pattern isn’t effective in running this can have an effect on the distance gained in long jump. Although in basket ball if your running then shoot using a vertical jump , the running can also effect the vertical jump if they have a poor push pull cycle or movement pattern.

Sorry riddle face this information on how to train SSC is not free information to give out. That’s my bread and butter

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

Mashie72
Mar 05 2009 01:14
Page 87

AB/Bio,

Thanks for your feedback on isometrics. I’ll be checking the new thread as well. I appreciate your inputs

Mashie72

Beezneeds
Mar 05 2009 02:28
Page 87

Thanks Bio.

More Athletics:

A swinger is a hammer thrower?

A hitter is a shot putter?

Styles
Mar 05 2009 02:43
Page 87

interesting you should make the comparison beez as Lag and I were talking about hammer throwers recently as well.

I actually feel that a hammer thrower exhibits both protocols during his discipline. As he rotates and speeds up the hammer he pulls the hammer out of its orbit to speed it up and then he lets it go with more of a swingers execution letting CF (my term) throw it off his chest.

Perhaps the video below lets you see what I am talking about.

Obviously these are my own thoughts and Lag has his opinion as well.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work.

The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

The Dart

Beezneeds
Mar 05 2009 02:58
Page 87

Flat swings + heavy “clubs” and equiment that hasn’t changed since the 60s! Lag should approve of these guys!!!!! ; )

robbo65
Mar 05 2009 03:25
Page 87

Thanks Junior,

That all makes sense..

I find strength in the golf swing to also be very important for gaining accuracy and control of the golf club… most people think of strength in golf only to be to a gain of distance..

The stronger I am, the shorter I can swing and minimize hand travel for any given shot.. shorter, meaning less hand travel, not pivot rotation.

This is often an area of confusion. Most golfers when they think of taking a shorter backswing, they over shorten their pivot turn, and then find a huge power loss.. so they go back to the longer arm swing, which may feel longer, but actually is not.

Hogan, Moe and Trevino are excellent studies relating to this concept.

The longer the backswing, the farther the arms travel back, the more you open the door for unnecessary timing elements and having to rely on perfect rhythm, tempo and all those lovely things..

I used to love to watch Ian Woosnam when I played on tour, as he really made the golf swing look very simple and easy.. he was a fine example of what great golf could look like.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

I have some of Greg McHatton’s stuff, really good info for the swingers out there (with a solid TGM basis). He focuses on a “big turn in a small space” and mentions that the back swing is just that…... back, NOT up! Those images have helped me avoid the “fake turn” that often happens when the arms start lifting independently of the pivot on the backswing.

Robbo

lagpressure
Mar 05 2009 05:57
Page 87

If you want to swing, I highly recommend Greg McHatton to go and see… or study… he teaches it, lives and breathes it, and he can demonstrate and execute it as good as anyone..

I used to love to just watch him hit balls with as pure a CF action as you could possibly have from a standard address position..

If you want the more practical version, study Moe Norman.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Bio
Mar 05 2009 07:49
Page 87

Beeneez,
Yeah may be possible, a shot putter drives with his right shoulder, something which is interesting is as to shot out is leaving their hand , their arm is decelerating that was interesting.

Although for hammer throw they aren’t trying to fly their arms off the body, They fight C.F the more effective they do this the more distal speed created.
I’m not really sure with homer if he truely ment the arms should fly away from the body, not sure how this perception came about.
My understanding is feeling that the club is trying to fly away from the body due to C.F from the club but fight this.
An example grab a club spin around as fast as you can,like a hammer throw. feel the C.F pulling against your body, fight this and you will notice you create more speed.
Example do the same bu allow your arms to fly away from your body, your end result is your will decelerate and can’t generate as much speed

Mechanics are a bi-product of biomechanical function

iseekgolfguru
Mar 05 2009 10:47
Page 87

Thats why Homer had Power Accumulator #4 and Pressure Point #4 as so important. Keeping that left arm and upper torso angle in tight until it can be thrown off or pulled off by CF – along the shoulder line as opposed to out in front of your face.

Beezneeds
Mar 06 2009 03:18
Page 87

Having seen Greg McHatton’s swing on video – google it and you will find what you seek folks – would I be correct in saying it is very similar to Sevam1’s? (link to the thread is here)

lagpressure
Mar 06 2009 06:35
Page 87

There might be a similar “look” but I believe Sevam uses
Hogan’s bent left wrist at the top while Greg’s would flat if not
even arched from by recall..

There release actions would be quite different too..
I know Greg really dumps it out to right field and is the epitomy of
a post impact equal-angular paralllel plane condition, where as Hogan cut hard left keeping the shaft on a true plane..

This is one of the core differences between hitting and swinging..

I haven’t had a good look at Sevam’s release action at decent slow motion quality to really comment on his specifics, but I know he promotes Hogan’s protocol, so I would think he is certainly leaning more in that direction than Mc Hatton.

As much as I could never get myself to trust the swinging protocol as Greg teaches, it’s sure fun to watch him do it…

PURE!!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Loren
Mar 06 2009 06:57
Page 87

A Ben Doyle protoge.
Automatic snap release, maximum delay.
It’s not easy to do, involves an aiming point different from the ball arrived at through experiment and varying with certain factors like clubshaft length and handspeed.
Serendipitous.

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)
“To be consistent, you must apply Extensor Action.” HK

darthvader
Mar 06 2009 11:41
Page 87

There might be a similar ’Äúlook” but I believe Sevam uses
Hogan's bent left wrist at the top while Greg's would flat if not
even arched from by recall..

There release actions would be quite different too..
I know Greg really dumps it out to right field and is the epitomy of
a post impact equal-angular paralllel plane condition, where as Hogan cut hard left keeping the shaft on a true plane..

This is one of the core differences between hitting and swinging..

I haven't had a good look at Sevam's release action at decent slow motion quality to really comment on his specifics, but I know he promotes Hogan's protocol, so I would think he is certainly leaning more in that direction than Mc Hatton.

As much as I could never get myself to trust the swinging protocol as Greg teaches, it's sure fun to watch him do it…

PURE!!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

McH float loads a lot
Sevam seems to flip biscuits way right field

iseekgolfguru
Mar 06 2009 12:17
Page 87

McH is a king float loader. Very pretty to watch.

Beezneeds
Mar 06 2009 21:57
Page 87

Maybe what I’m saying is that they both have nice pivots…..

Club goes very close to the neck in both swings also.

Lag – are you sure that what Sevam is doing is a hitting procedure (as you seem to imply)?

He describes his own action as a cross between Hogan’s and Moe Norman’s – using certain elements of each….not sure where that leaves us!

Sevam!?

TheDart
Mar 06 2009 22:19
Page 88

The key is to learn what Lag Loading is in its simplest form. Then maybe the other two. And a long time after you might start fooling around with modifications and combinations.

I have seen dozens killed by 4 barrel auto snap. Killed, I mean they do not even play golf or teach anymore. Wrong gradient. Too steep and they backslide.

Learn basics first then you don’t get lost. Too slow is better than too fast. There is so much to learn. A weak foundation guarantees failure. And vice versa.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Beezneeds
Mar 06 2009 22:38
Page 88

Dart – I’m currently playing with a straight up and straight down idea, keeping clubface looking at ball for first couple of feet in the takeaway. Still a fairly flat swing – though it is more around the neck than before. A little traditional ‘position golf’ instruction from my local pro helped a lot – but I would give a lot of credit to all the TGM (and Sevam) talk I’ve taken in over the last year or so.

The propulsion system is, I think, a swinging one, though that happened quite by accident. I stand tall but with a fairly wide stance – wind up over a dug in right leg and then pull back with the left side and….bombs away.

The pro really just gave me a trained set of eyes to fix takeaway, stance and a couple of other small things that made all the difference.

Real simple and could very happily play long-game golf this way for quite a long time….certainly the rest of the season!

darthvader
Mar 07 2009 00:02
Page 88

Maybe what I'm saying is that they both have nice pivots…..

Club goes very close to the neck in both swings also.

Lag – are you sure that what Sevam is doing is a hitting procedure (as you seem to imply)?

He describes his own action as a cross between Hogan's and Moe Norman's – using certain elements of each….not sure where that leaves us!

Sevam!?

http://www.secretinthedirt....

Found this site for you
Interesting you see Hogan in this swing . I simply can’t fathom why
Just totally different in Tilts of hips/shoulders, Plane angles, Tailbone release , Release, face rotation
What are you seeing

Beezneeds
Mar 07 2009 01:33
Page 88

I don’t think I said I saw Hogan in this swing – I said I saw McHatton in it. The Hogan/Norman hybrid claim is made by Sevam himself.

Funny enough, people elsewhere have compared McHatton to Hogan too.

Anyway – re: seeing Hogan, the question is what is superficial and what is….. fundamental?

Part of the similarity between McHatton and Sevam is how they start back to the ball before the backswing is finished.

It’s pretty clear to me here that Sevam is pretty passive about what he’s doing…..(short version from 5.40 on)

That requires a very smooth move and…....does it require passive hands?

Beezneeds
Mar 07 2009 01:51
Page 88

For the record (2 Sevam quotes):

You can't ape the positions and get to Hogan. The positions themselves are not the story. Why and how the positions happen is the story and that part of the story comes from the ground. It is about balance and using the lower body as the engine of the swing.

My swing in general though is basically a combination of Hogan and Moe so it is part swing and part hit. How I leave the ball of the right foot is generally my main concern.

darthvader
Mar 07 2009 02:03
Page 88

Seems like Hogan is the name to be associated with these days.
I read through this thread and how many different triggers did hogan use. Lagpressure changed his mind 4 times. Lucky Hogan didn’t do stuff people claim otherwise he would not be who he was

robbo65
Mar 07 2009 02:56
Page 88

I mentioned McHatton in reference to making a good pivot, and not lifting the arms on the backswing which often makes one “think” they made a good turn.

He’s all “swing” but I get the idea he favors an angled hinge resulting from good “Zone 1” action. Lots of baseball references in his presentation (hitters, pitchers, outfielders) to show how the pivot and arms should work. Seems to be big on “standard” knee action (back knee straightens on backswing, front knee straightens on the downswing) with a full hip turn in both directions and a “dynamic” torqueing of the body (no McClean X-factor stuff).

It’s interesting to watch a TGM-based instructor like McHatton. If you know the book you can see/hear the material as he teaches, but not one TGM “term” is uttered.

wabisabi
Mar 07 2009 07:37
Page 88

Here’s a new website with Gregg Mchatton doing his punch shot drill and some full swings as well.

lagpressure
Mar 07 2009 10:52
Page 88

Beez,

Like I said in an earlier post, I don’t know how Sevam releases the club, so unless I see good high speed shots from impact to P4 I can’t really comment on which protocol he is using for certain..

The reality is that is someone could swing like Hogan, they would hit it like Hogan.. not easy to do, but not impossible at all..

The first thing you would have to do to “DO” Hogan, would be to play a set of clubs that is set up like Hogan had..

in particular,

Dead weight, and swing weight,
Shaft flex
and very important club lie angle..

Every time I talk to anyone about Hogan’s specs I hear something different, usually with someone’s complete conviction..

They were in the back room..
they watched him in a tournament,
they knew Gene Seeley, or some other high priest at the Hogan Factory… or Tom Wishon who says he had a good idea..

From all that I have gathered.. my guess is..

5 degrees flat off standard…
XX shafts tipped and about as stiff as anyone ever had
Very heavy, a driver almost 15 ounces.
Irons VERY heavy..
I would guess as heavy or heavier than my 59 Dynapowers
which are very heavy.. an ounce more than any other set I own,
and I own quite a few..
A reminder on the grip at 5 o clock so they would set open
the bottom of the clubs grinded on the heel to they would sit
5 degrees open at address, this would be consistent with the grip reminder.
Club lofts where then bent strong to compensate for the open grind..
The sole cut very flat, and with a sharp leading edge…
Over sized grips..

The five degrees of open is HUGE because it requires a totally different release protocol..

You cannot swing like Hogan unless you play these specs because these specs would radically change the way you swing…
RADICALLY!

No company I know of has every made a set like this…
You can’t go buy this, and especially today with everything lighweight..

These specs could be wrong, but from the various sources I have
pulled from that might know, these are the specs that keep popping up..

I was on the phone today with a good friend and former PGA Tour winner who lives in Fort Worth, and is certain he knows, and has held the clubs in his hands.. I trust him as much as anyone..
but do I have direct and personallly knowledge? No..

Hogan drove the ball about 250 yards maybe a bit more if he wanted, and this is now unacceptable for most average weekend
hackers..!! If it’s not 300 yards, then spend another $600 on the latest and greatest hybrid titanium alloy COR jacked up super thin graphite over length jumbo atom smashing monster.

One thing for sure.. that will never teach you Hogan’s golf swing.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

spike71
Mar 07 2009 13:23
Page 88

Another great post Lag!

There is no present like the time.

dahlquist
Mar 07 2009 17:25
Page 88

The Hat knows his stuff. I think he would be a good guy to ask on issues on the pivot in the TGM world a bunch. I have a couple a students whom bounce idea off him and myself. Funny how much I like what gets said. TGM works so they say ;)

lagpressure
Mar 08 2009 03:45
Page 88

watching those “Hat” vids are fun..
It’s like eating cotton candy.. it looks good and tastes sweeter..

The smooth jazz music to the swing…
reminds me of the classic Steely Dan tune “Hey 19”

“The Cuervo Gold, ...... but we can’t dance together!”

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

marion_cobretti
Mar 08 2009 22:38
Page 88

Lagpressure, Dart or guru or experts.

I have a TGM-ish question about flipping, extensor action and pp#3. I have been thinking lately about trying to build myself a good repeatable swing that will get me shooting further into the 70’s( my current stroke average is 79.5). I generally hit the ball longer than most i play with,and learnt to play golf with a well timed flip. I think this sometimes creeps back into my swing when i hit a bad one or really try to lean on a ball for extra distance. I was thinking that perhaps i could give up some distance by trying the feeling of a gradual release instead of trying to absolutely cripple the ball by pouring everything into a late release, which occasionally turns into a flip. It would be a feeling of sort of extensor action and an early right wrist flattening (but not completely flattened), all through pp#3. I haven’t been able to get to the course to try it but it feels like a more constant rhythm.

Am I on the right track, or could anyone think of a better procedure/feeling?

Thoughts.

lagpressure
Mar 09 2009 06:15
Page 88

If you release late, you have to have the strength and hand speed to properly deal with such a late release, if that is in fact what you are doing..

There are ways to minimize the timing element in the golf swing,
I personally despise timing type golf swings as they usually give out on you under pressure at just the wrong time..

It’s hard to make recommendations without actually seeing your swing,
but feel free to send me a vid of your swing, I don’t mind taking a quick look..

I might tell you it’s a spark plug or I might tell you we need to pull the motor tomorrow! lol

lagpressure@yahoo.com">e mail

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

marion_cobretti
Mar 09 2009 20:00
Page 88

Thanks

I will get a swing vid to you when I can.

Golfur66
Mar 09 2009 22:20
Page 88

From all that I have gathered.. my guess is..

5 degrees flat off standard…
XX shafts tipped and about as stiff as anyone ever had
Very heavy, a driver almost 15 ounces.
Irons VERY heavy..
I would guess as heavy or heavier than my 59 Dynapowers
which are very heavy.. an ounce more than any other set I own,
and I own quite a few..
A reminder on the grip at 5 o clock so they would set open
the bottom of the clubs grinded on the heel to they would sit
5 degrees open at address, this would be consistent with the grip reminder.
Club lofts where then bent strong to compensate for the open grind..
The sole cut very flat, and with a sharp leading edge…
Over sized grips..

The five degrees of open is HUGE because it requires a totally different release protocol..

You cannot swing like Hogan unless you play these specs because these specs would radically change the way you swing…

Lag
Do you teach your students to swing using the hitters protocol as an end goal, or as a mechanism to get close to Hogan’s swing?
Based on what you said above, it would seem like suicide to attempt the Hogan swing goal!

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

Prot
Mar 09 2009 23:52
Page 88

I can’t answer the question you have for Lag, but I can say as someone Lag has been teaching for a decent amount of time, I am getting less and less out of super light modern gear.

I went to a heavier shaft in my blades, and I wish I went all out heavy. My driver is still light for pure yardage reasons. But my irons got heavy… I’d say almost out of necessity for “hitting”.

I don’t know if Lag chose “hitting” for me because he likes it, or because my “train wreck” swing dictated it as the least painful of the two main paths.

I do know as time goes on, and the “hitting” in this type of swing has me wanting to use more and more right arm (coming more inside), for extra pow.

I did realize a while ago that I’d never actively persue a “Hogan Swing”. We’re just all built differently, interpret diffferently, etc. Personally I’ve realized quite a few of Hogan’s fundamentals fit in quite nicely with what Lag has shared with me, but I’ve never seen Lag’s teachings as a “mechanism to get close to Hogan’s swing”.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

lagpressure
Mar 10 2009 04:24
Page 88

There is no doubt that the swing you use is going to evolve out of the gear you play..

For example, if you look at Hogan films, you will see a very distinct shaft compression into his body at the transition at the top. TGM would call this a float load, or down stroke loading..

You are going to see a lot more of this with a heavier club than a light club. Hogan tells us he gripped the club very firm, yet we see this suppleness in his wrists at transition. But a lot of what you see is the gear he was using. If you try and create that “look” with today’s lightweight clubs, you will do yourself harm because that “look” is not actually a “look” it is a by product of much heavier clubs than what players use today..

If you don’t believe me, put three clubs in your hands, take a practice swing, and film it with your video camera, and you too will have that “look”. It’s very hard to throw the club from the top with the hands if the clubs are heavy, and this is one of the reasons Hogan preferred heavy clubs. They are most certainly a throwaway inhibitor.

Like Prot said, there is only one club in your bag you need to hit far, and that is your driver.

If you line up 5 golfers from 150, and they all have different clubs,
player #1 has a super light weight over length wedge that he can hit 150.
Player #5 has a super heavy shorter 6 iron, and everyone else is somewhere in between..

If everyone is the same distance, the goal at this point is to hit the ball close to the hole.. and certainly the guy with the 6 iron is taking
THE SHORTER ROUTE! yes, as I have said before, his ball will travel on a more direct arc, lower trajectory, and not have to travel
nearly as far in the air..

The question is, can he stop it on the green? Into the wind he sure can.. are the greens soft? sure.. if they are rock hard in the summer,
and the pin is cut right over a bunker, and it is down wind, then maybe the wedge guy might have a better chance, but if that is the case, both players might be wise to play a safer shot to the center of the green.. also, the SKY ball is much more likely to PLUG in the event the shot lands in the trap.

There is zero advantage to an iron you hit farther, unless you get to pick the ball up and move it 20 meters closer to the hole, you’re still the same distance..

Find an iron set you hit straight!.. Find a driver you hit a compromised “straight and long” one that is appropriate for the type of golf you play.

Getting back to Hogan, in his era, he played most if his golf on tight tree lined courses in the States, where there was more if a premium on driving accuracy than there is today. Golf courses topped out around 6900 yards, so he knew if he could drive it 250 yards he could play anywhere. He also had an extra 20 yards in his back pocket when he absolutely needed it. From there it was all about
STRAIGHT.. and proper shape, and trajectory. Hogan could have hit light weight clubs, they hand them back then… he also could have played loose shafts, and he could have played upright irons, but he did not… because he either knew… or experimented and found out
that the best way to hit a golf ball straight would be to use heavier clubs that engage the bigger muscles in the body and promote a pivot driven golf swing… he knew that stiff shafts would offer better consistency and respond better under pressure, and he knew that the flatter you swing, the easier it is to minimize plane shifting, and the more difficult it is to come OTT or to hit the ball left..

The flatter you can swing, given other things are done correctly,
the straighter you will hit the golf ball..

You don’t lose power either.. if done properly, I know Bio will back me up on this too.

Golfur66,

I do like proper hitting technique as an end goal.. it’s what most of the great ball strikers do, it’s time tested, and from personal experience, I have played top level golf using both methods, and I can attest that hitting is absolutely a superior method. Also I have Homer’s work in TGM to back up hitting as the superior method.
Homer backs up hitting all over the place in his work as the superior method. The greatest ball striker of all time “Hogan” was a hitter.

What more do you need?

To answer the second part of you question… getting close to Hogan’s swing?

I think there are two ways to look at Hogan’s swing.. there are the basic principles… and then there is his swing itself..

Hogans basic principles are minimal plane shifting, or flat downswing plane, late release, active acceleration, thin divots, consistent ball position, no roll hinging, pivot driven rotation, firm grip, active hands, perfect balance aided by a wider than normal stance, firm body tension.

Now you could apply most of all of those characteristics and have a swing that looks quite different than Hogan’s. I can think of a lot of players that would be applying most of those characteristics..

The backswing and the finish swivel allow for a lot of personal style in the golf swing.. history shows us this.. but we see very similar action through impact especially when we look at the greats..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

iseekgolfguru
Mar 10 2009 10:21
Page 88

Lagpressure, Dart or guru or experts.

I have a TGM-ish question about flipping, extensor action and pp#3. I have been thinking lately about trying to build myself a good repeatable swing that will get me shooting further into the 70's( my current stroke average is 79.5). I generally hit the ball longer than most i play with,and learnt to play golf with a well timed flip. I think this sometimes creeps back into my swing when i hit a bad one or really try to lean on a ball for extra distance. I was thinking that perhaps i could give up some distance by trying the feeling of a gradual release instead of trying to absolutely cripple the ball by pouring everything into a late release, which occasionally turns into a flip. It would be a feeling of sort of extensor action and an early right wrist flattening (but not completely flattened), all through pp#3. I haven't been able to get to the course to try it but it feels like a more constant rhythm.

Am I on the right track, or could anyone think of a better procedure/feeling?

Thoughts.

If you get your release done correctly, with the uncock and then downswing swivel plus intended hinge action done using a Flat Left Wrist, then your need to flip will disappear. Snap (late) release or Random (middle) both require the FLW to travel upon.
I am going to assume you have a TGM coach nearby. I would get them to work on short shots, 50-100m, using minimal hand travel but working your wrist cock and roll actions. One the penny drops as to why you occasionally threw in a flip, they will not happen often as that flattening right wrist is your killer.

Golfur66
Mar 11 2009 22:13
Page 88

Lag said:

Golfur66,

I do like proper hitting technique as an end goal.. it's what most of the great ball strikers do, it's time tested, and from personal experience, I have played top level golf using both methods, and I can attest that hitting is absolutely a superior method. Also I have Homer's work in TGM to back up hitting as the superior method.
Homer backs up hitting all over the place in his work as the superior method. The greatest ball striker of all time ’ÄúHogan” was a hitter.

What more do you need?

Lag,

I’m not questioning your reasoning for hitting over swinging. You have said many times why hitting is preferable and I believe you (as you already know :D).
I was just asking if stopping at being a hitter is enough, or should we try to be more “Hoganesque”?

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

Golfur66
Mar 11 2009 22:42
Page 88

Lag said:

Hogans basic principles are minimal plane shifting, or flat downswing plane, late release, active acceleration, thin divots, consistent ball position, no roll hinging, pivot driven rotation, firm grip, active hands, perfect balance aided by a wider than normal stance, firm body tension.

Lag, regarding the no-roll hinging, how does the hitter square the clubface up if this doesn’t happen?
HK says “Hitters concentrate on hand motion”. Isn’t this 4-C: Rotational release (Turn and roll)?
Does this imply a hitter has no cocking and uncocking of the left wrist, just turning and rolling?

HK says “Uncocking is clubhead control and rolling is clubface control” and “all players must swivel – actually rotate their wrists – into the parallel to the plane position for the finish after the followthrough”.

Another question is regarding elbow position. Is the pitch position( in front of the hip) preferred for the hitter for a later release over the punch position(beside the hip), or is this only if you want to implement a snap release more efficiently?

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

wabisabi
Mar 12 2009 06:44
Page 88

Golfur66:

Horizontal Hinge – Feels like full roll
ANGLED HINGE – FEELS LIKE NO ROLL
Vertical Hinge – Feels like reverse roll

lagpressure
Mar 12 2009 07:49
Page 88

Golfur66,

I don’t think it is wrong to emulate the greatest ball striker of all time…
I talked a little about equipment, and how I think that has a much bigger effect on finding “The Hogan Move” than most would imagine.

HK says ’ÄúHitters concentrate on hand motion”. Isn't this 4-C: Rotational release (Turn and roll)?
Does this imply a hitter has no cocking and uncocking of the left wrist, just turning and rolling?

yes, proper hitting is a deliberate firing of the hands, with the rotation of the hands from P3 to impact. I’m never thrilled with the word roll the hands as that really sound like we are introducing a lot of timing into the golf swing..

If you think of the rotation of the hands from P3 to impact, from a very open position to squared up at impact, and that feels like “roll” then that is fine, but post impact, any rotation of the clubface is better to be
imparted by the pivot.

It’s really a sequencing thing.. as the hands fire into the ball, you can think of the pivot as the second stage of a rocket firing from impact to P4. This second firing keeps the #4 pressure point intact and pressured over to P4, not flying off the body like swingers do.

This gives a player that “cut it left look” which in reality is not left, just on plane.

Now getting to the left wrist, the left wrist does uncock from P3 into impact, BUT NOT FULLY… you could think of it as about half way for most golfers.. this does depend some upon the lie of your clubs,
and how tall you are, and how long your arms are.. so 1/2 way is a generalization. Whatever that angle is, to goal is to preserve that angle over to P4, and even better, all the way to finish..

It’s not very complicated once you get the move down, quite easy to reproduce because the wrists are firm, not loose, so there is no timing feeling..

This is really the “orbit pull” feeling I talk about, and it is a reality,
but very few golfers have ever felt this, and unless you have felt it,
it’s just going to sound like craziness or near insanity..!

If you are a pivot driven hitter, you will know what I am talking about,
if you’re a swinger or stuck in switting land somewhere, it’s a difficult concept to wrap your head around…

Homer saying:
’ÄúUncocking is clubhead control and rolling is clubface control”
I really don’t think this is all that cut and dry.. I just don’t know how
you can separate the two.. because the last time I checked, THE CLUBFACE is PART OF THE CLUBHEAD!!!

I’d be careful going down the intellectual road that the clubface does
one thing, and the clubhead does something else..

Finally, as far as the right elbow, pitch is really just a delay of the #1 accumulator, and YOU CAN HIT from pitch… I do it.. and the reason always goes back to acceleration… if you INTEND to accelerate the club past impact, then you need to SAVE some ammunition in the power package so you can DO THIS! Well, #2 and #3 are done and used up, so you have some #4 left, and if you are CLEVER, you might just save some #1… and here you have it …PITCH hitting…

All this, I am talking 4 barrel hitting, not the 1/2 swing shots from basic motion, and driving the right arm through the ball without much pivot going on… this is 2-M-3 stuff, pivot driven hitters.. like Hogan
and many other greats..

I hope that makes sense, I know it won’t to a lot of you however..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Steb
Mar 12 2009 08:10
Page 88

Makes a ton of sense. The 1/2 way uncocked you talk of – is that halfway between fully cocked and level, or halfway between fully cocked and fully uncocked (ie. nearly level)?

iseekgolfguru
Mar 12 2009 10:25
Page 88

The 1/2 way is LEVEL, not cocked or uncocked. Its how your left wrist will look at Impact Fix where you are sorting out all those impact alignments.

Hitters generally play with much less wrist cocking motion as their backswings are a little shorter. So they have a little less right elbow bend at the top of their backswing. That elbow angle is what has cocked their wrist. ( for Float loading hitters then that angle is increased in the downswing motion)

Swingers Turn the face to the plane early in the swing then Cock. Hitters keep the clubface looking more at the ball with a more gradual Turning going on.

Hitters simultaneously uncock and Roll in the downswing vs a swingers motion of uncock with the face laying on the plane, then downswing swivel the clubface and hinge action into the ball.

The left hand controls the Clubface. The right hand the plane delivery lines of the clubhead.

lagpressure
Mar 12 2009 13:23
Page 89

Guru makes a good point about the elbow angle being intrinsically tied to the amount of wrist cock.

But when we talk about hitting off a pitch platform, we are talking about getting the late release and the face more open at P3. BUT, you need to have strong quick hands to do it… AND when you do learn this… this is a BIG step toward a more advanced approach to striking a golf ball!

I think it’s worth working towards, because if you can get it, then you can really separate yourself from the rest with much better ball striking than most will ever experience.

Steb,

I was meaning about half way from fully cocked to fully uncocked.. so as Guru so simply put it..

Level..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Golfur66
Mar 12 2009 14:00
Page 89

Lag said:

But when we talk about hitting off a pitch platform, we are talking about getting the late release and the face more open at P3. BUT, you need to have strong quick hands to do it… AND when you do learn this… this is a BIG step toward a more advanced approach to striking a golf ball!

Is there much risk of worsening the timing of the hit with the pitch over the punch? For instance, with the elbow leading the hands, do you have to be more active with the pivot to ensure the hands don’t stay behind you?
Could the other extreme be an early flip out of the elbow and no pivot resulting in a nasty smother or hook?

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

Steb
Mar 12 2009 14:15
Page 89
... AND when you do learn this… this is a BIG step toward a more advanced approach to striking a golf ball!

I think it's worth working towards, because if you can get it, then you can really separate yourself from the rest with much better ball striking than most will ever experience.

Dart’s got me working on exactly this at the moment, plus what I believe is equivalent to the second stage firing and preservation of P4 you talk of. Post-impact locking A3 to the pivot as Dart puts it (but please correct me if I’ve misunderstood, Dart).

Initial feelings are undeniably an aurally noticable more solid contact, however at least a club or two shorter. Drive maybe 30 yards shorter. It feels a very hard position to accelerate hard from. Now it’s early days and I’m sure I’ll get more confident to drive harder with it, with it but is this a case of sacrificing quite a bit of distance for control? Should I be expecting the same distance I would previously achieve with a more athletically powerful looking swing, yet one of inferior compression?

I appreciate it’s irrelevant what distances irons go, however good distance (along with accuracy) are indicators that all is sweet.

iseekgolfguru
Mar 12 2009 14:23
Page 89

Once you get the flow of the mechanic, then you can speed it right through there faster and faster.

lagpressure
Mar 12 2009 16:45
Page 89

Is there much risk of worsening the timing of the hit with the pitch over the punch? For instance, with the elbow leading the hands, do you have to be more active with the pivot to ensure the hands don't stay behind you?

It’s not a timing issue at all, but more of a strength and speed issue.
You cannot bring into P3 more load than you can handle. That is why it is so important to train the hands properly, so they can increase and handle the load. If you can handle it, your fine.. no problems..

In other words, if you can bench press 100 pounds today, there is a good chance you can do it tomorrow also. It’s not likely you will just suddenly lose your strength. Now if your swing is based on perfect rhythm and timing, then you might find yourself in trouble by just a change in heart rate or a slight shot of adrenalin.

Could the other extreme be an early flip out of the elbow and no pivot resulting in a nasty smother or hook?

Did you say right arm fires early pre impact, and the body just stops?
That could surely get ugly!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Mar 12 2009 16:58
Page 89

Steb,

You could look at the golf swing two ways…
on one end, you can have a technique based swing only.. your thin,
weak arms and hands, but you still want to be able to move the ball a decent distance… my suggestion? SWING

Now if you want to hit it the same distance but with wonderful control, dependable and reliable, you will have to see the swing as an athletic endeavor to some degree. Hitting does take a bit of athleticism, but a lot of this can be learned by most anyone.

Getting back to the bench press example, most people with a bit of training, can learn to bench press 100 pounds within 3 to 6 months..
On the other hand, few people would have the genetics to bench press 600 pounds as some can.

So give your hands some time to strengthen up, it takes time, but it will come, it’s sounds like you are already seeing improvements.

Hitting it straight will lower you scores a lot faster than picking up 20 yards…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Golfur66
Mar 13 2009 16:20
Page 89

Chuck Evans said in an interview with Paul Smith:
Chuck Evans Interview
“I asked Moe once if he had ever heard of Homer Kelley and he replied, ’ÄúYes, the Golfing Machine Ôø‡ he has it figured out”. Moe was as pure an example of Hitting Ôø‡ as defined by Mr Kelley Ôø‡ as any player that has ever played this great game. His procedure is outlined in Mr Kelley's little book and with the exception of his unique set up can be catalogued through the book. Mr Kelley may have been the ’Äúoriginal” Moe Norman. Disregarding the wide stance and out stretched arms, their two motions was almost identical. Moe got the right forearm and clubshaft in one line by stretching out his arms, Mr Kelley did it simply bending the right elbow.”
This contradicts your thoughts Lag, that he is a swinger.

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

Golfur66
Mar 13 2009 17:22
Page 89

Lag,

In the above interview, Chuck said “Whatever plane angle you decide to shift to, if any, the important part is that the clubshaft lays full length on this tilted plane. The Plane is the one thing in a golf stroke that everything else must comply with.”

If the plane is a flat tilted surface and the hands and club are on it, I can’t picture how to get the right forearm on it if I use the punch or push elbow positions. They both feel under the plane.
I can only get it on plane with the pitch position because the elbow is tucked in front of the hip.
I do however now understand when Loren said that the left arm isn’t on the plane. It would be at or near impact though(before impact, it’s above the plane and after it’s below), correct?

Also, if/when you shift between planes, I assume the club has to stay parallel with the two planes during transition otherwise you lose swing integrity?

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

TheDart
Mar 13 2009 20:53
Page 89

Golfur66,

You are going to get a range of opinions on Moe and many others.

When learning stick with the simplest definitions until you master them. Then you can be the expert on the complications and custom designed swing and hits.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

Golfur66
Mar 13 2009 21:15
Page 89

Thanks for the reply Dart. I wish I’d done that ages ago.
By the way, I bought yours and Peter Crokers video clips you did together and finally got to watch them today. Nice work.
I didn’t realise you were such a softly spoken and eloquent teacher. Your written text gave me a different mental picture of you.

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

darthvader
Mar 13 2009 21:26
Page 89

Hogans basic principles are minimal plane shifting, or flat downswing plane, late release, active acceleration, thin divots, consistent ball position, no roll hinging, pivot driven rotation, firm grip, active hands, perfect balance aided by a wider than normal stance, firm body tension.

Now you could apply most of all of those characteristics and have a swing that looks quite different than Hogan's. I can think of a lot of players that would be applying most of those characteristics..

The backswing and the finish swivel allow for a lot of personal style in the golf swing.. history shows us this.. but we see very similar action through impact especially when we look at the greats..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Well the thruth for all the poor readers getting led up the garden path here is that Hogan had a tremendous plane shift in transition , moved his ball location around later in life, used horizontal hinge motion with GEAR effect and also took some pork chop divots( with shorter clubs)
Yes hard to believe but true . Its just way beyond the stuff written

SoulmanZ
Mar 14 2009 00:14
Page 89

Lag, ive been meaning to ask for a while … ive seen a few photos of you where you keep a very acute angle between the shaft and the arms well after transition – i guess this is float loading? i just wanna know how this fits with hitting

i can do this a bit while swinging, and it feels real nice, but i just cant comprehend how to do it with a hitting stroke. the wrist position is just too weak for any real push

thoughts?

Prot
Mar 14 2009 03:13
Page 89

I now believe I’ve been recently learning to ‘save it’ for the right arm.

I still don’t know how aggressive you can be with the right arm, but I think of it as being VERY relaxed until P3. This is where/how I retain my rather pathetic angles, so I’d be interested in what Lag thinks of that as well.

Sometimes it seems the more I save, the more inside on the ball I prefer to be, the two seem to magically go hand in hand. Conversely, if I’m not inside on the ball, saving my right arm punch and all it’s angles results in a terrible hit.

As a side note, I know I felt the ‘wrist position is too weak’ as a thought until my second month into doing daily impact bag drills. When assisted with the body, it certainly doesn’t feel weak anymore! I can easily overdo it now, and lose control.

Oddly enough I recall Sevam saying in one of his videos that people comment on the ‘weak wrist’ position, and if I can recall he said it’s only weak for a second, and then it’s anything but weak.

The temptation to swing the arms is huge… I don’t care what anyone says, it’s one thing to THINK about letting the wrists/forearms/pivot do all the work, but it’s entirely another to get your body/mind to believe it! I still struggle.

“Try smarter, not harder.” Moe Norman

lagpressure
Mar 14 2009 06:02
Page 89

Golfur66,

Regarding Moe..

“Disregarding the wide stance and out stretched arms..
.......and with the exception of his unique set up”

Unfortunately you can’t disregard those things.. you can’t..
This was Moe’s… not so secret, secret because it is staring you right in the face..

CF seeks an inline position. Hitters don’t seek that inline position, they fight it.. hitters pull the club out of orbit as hard as they can.. Moe knew the best way to swing was to just put it all inline right from address.

Moe did not angle hinge like many believe, I shot him with my own camera in 1987 at 10K shutter speed.. I can see it all, absolutely as clear as day, I can see the grooves on the clubface at impact… shaft flex everything.. Moe full rolled it.. fully… but Moe had great extensor action, and that is not a hitters driving right arm into an angled hinge.

I have no doubt that Moe’s protocol for swinging is the best way to do it.. for one, it makes perfect sense, and two, I WITNESSED IT
WITH DIRECT AND PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE… over the course of seven years..and don’t think I didn’t ask him a lot of questions..

Moe is the perfect example of true pure swinging that is actually “on plane” and not using the equal-angular.. spiral.. parallel plane.. post impact approach that is most commonly taught in the TGM world…
which I believe to be a seriously flawed approach.

I find it quite shocking that an “expert” of the golf swing would say
“if you disregard Moe’s unusual set up, and out stretched arms..”

That’s Moe’s whole thing.. disregard? REALLY?

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Mar 14 2009 06:23
Page 89

SoulmanZ,

In regard to hitting from at pitch position..

i can do this a bit while swinging, and it feels real nice, but i just cant comprehend how to do it with a hitting stroke. the wrist position is just too weak for any real push

Your wording “feels real nice” tells me right away you are a swinger..
There is nothing nice feeling about hitting off a pitch platform..

You also saying…. “the wrist position is just too weak for any real push”
Bingo…

would you try to build a brick house on top of a toothpick foundation?

To do this, you need STRONG HANDS.. in other words, a great strong foundation that is supplied by strong hands and forearms that can take that big angle and just do away with it like it’s a hatchet going through a
pencil. If you have the hand strength, you have the hand strength… it’s
easy to do if you have it..

But, if you are bringing dead hands into impact, and you are down there in pitch with the right elbow, and you are going to try to hit without the necessary power potential in the hands.. you are right.. it’s really hard to wrap your head around it.. it doesn’t make sense, and if you try to do it, the ball will certainly confirm your thoughts about it..

Why do you think Hogan said.. “I wish I had three right hands!”
Sam Snead said.. ” I pull the club down with the back three fingers of my left hand, then I hit it as hard as I can with the right hand”

Look at what Prot just said above.. just what Snead was saying..

I still don't know how aggressive you can be with the right arm, but I think of it as being VERY relaxed until P3.

The difference is that Snead knew how aggressive he could be,
while Prot is learning… because his pivot is not fully developed yet to
support the action of the hands.. Snead’s pivot was one of the greatest the game ever saw.. and we will never see such a pivot again unless golf clubs are made correctly.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

lagpressure
Mar 14 2009 06:36
Page 89

I now believe I've been recently learning to ‘save it' for the right arm.

Good…

I still don't know how aggressive you can be with the right arm, but I think of it as being VERY relaxed until P3.

excellent feeling….

Sometimes it seems the more I save, the more inside on the ball I prefer to be, the two seem to magically go hand in hand

interesting how that works isn’t it”

if I'm not inside on the ball, saving my right arm punch and all it's angles results in a terrible hit.

It sure does…

I know I felt the ‘wrist position is too weak' as a thought until my second month into doing daily impact bag drills. When assisted with the body, it certainly doesn't feel weak anymore!

Yep…

Sevam saying in one of his videos that people comment on the ‘weak wrist' position, and if I can recall he said it's only weak for a second, and then it's anything but weak.

sure, because at transition, it’s not delivered to the launching pad yet.

The temptation to swing the arms is huge…

Only with an underdeveloped pivot..


it's one thing to THINK about letting the wrists/forearms/pivot do all the work, but it's entirely another to get your body/mind to believe it! I still struggle.

When it gets warm enough outside and you can work on “module 3”
it will be a whole lot easier …. I know that’s been holding you up a bit.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

Golfur66
Mar 14 2009 14:56
Page 89

Prot said:
I know I felt the ‘wrist position is too weak' as a thought until my second month into doing daily impact bag drills. When assisted with the body, it certainly doesn't feel weak anymore!

Lag,
Are you confirming that having a weak left hand is fine for the hitting method? I have found that I am getting a stronger left hand using this method. The issue is that I feel like I have to really hold off release to stop hooking the ball. I don’t know if I’m releasing too early, coming over the top, or not pivoting hard enough.
Maybe I should be weakening the grip for it to be compatible.

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

lagpressure
Mar 14 2009 16:54
Page 89

I feel like I have to really hold off release to stop hooking the ball.

That’s great… at some point you’ll actually feel as if you never release..
and when you get there, suddenly the golf swing doesn’t feel like a timing swing..

Hogan talked about how if the golf swing is executed properly, there is no timing.. I think there’s a big clue there.. sounds like you are having a light bulb moment..

You mentioned releasing too soon? well, if you can hold off the release, and that feels slightly difficult, but at the same time puts extra pressure in your hands, you are on the right path..

Are you coming over the top? check your divots, if so, back on the 4:30 line..

Not pivoting hard enough? very possibly..

If you get a feeling that you have to pivot harder to stop the ball from going left.. then you need to do this..

look left out of the corner of your eye, and you will see a slight green glow in the distance, it’s the Emerald City…!!!!

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf’s evils

stinkler
Mar 14 2009 17:18
Page 89

I love this thread so much, this is just what I’m going through, though on a beginning level.

Lag, I find that the ball is going left but very straight flight. It seems to me that ball position plays a big part?? If I get it too far forward I hit left, back to right but again straight flight. Should it make that much difference?

I do find when I get tired though the hook appears, is this weak hands that I need to strengthen? Or maybe pivot failing as I tire?

BTW, thanks for your input here, would love to follow you on the old equipment too but as yet I need all the help I can get! One day,,,,

Steb
Mar 14 2009 19:47
Page 89

Thanks for the reply Dart. I wish I'd done that ages ago.
By the way, I bought yours and Peter Crokers video clips you did together and finally got to watch them today. Nice work.
I didn't realise you were such a softly spoken and eloquent teacher. Your written text gave me a different mental picture of you.


Yes, Dart is very different offline. :) Very good observation.

TheDart
Mar 14 2009 20:52
Page 89

Thanks for the reply Dart. I wish I'd done that ages ago.
By the way, I bought yours and Peter Crokers video clips you did together and finally got to watch them today. Nice work.
I didn't realise you were such a softly spoken and eloquent teacher. Your written text gave me a different mental picture of you.

’ÄúGolf is a ‘hit the ball to the target' sport, not a ‘hit the ball with the clubhead' sport”.
Percy Boomer

Golfur66,

Thank you. Very kind of you. I find the simple basics take people further and further. From a three piece band to a symphony orchestra. If they get lost, as we all do, they can go back instantly to the three piece and build it back up. They do it faster and faster as time goes by.

I hope we all know what those three pieces are.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

stinkler
Mar 14 2009 21:06
Page 89

Dart, you tell me three pieces first and I’ll tell you if I was right ; )

TheDart
Mar 14 2009 21:26
Page 89

OK,

Flat left wrist, sustained lag pressure and a straight plane line.

I am sure you are right. But I bet you have been way ahead of those. Things like pivots, planes, grips and stances. Nothing wrong with that but they won’t guarantee consistent results.

It did take me 20 years to find out how all encompassing they are. Enough pressure will do the job in the end but you need the other two in the early days.

I wonder where the majority of work is done in the swing and if it is planned and evaluated. Could be a new thread. Probably a short one.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range

stinkler
Mar 14 2009 21:31
Page 89

Well I had the first 2, though I was thinking Lag pressure aiming point, kinda close.

I’m a trio guy, wont be ahead these 3 for a while, if ever.

Thanks Dart.

TheDart
Mar 14 2009 21:33
Page 89

Good for you.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill’s, St. Michael’s or Milperra Driving Range