Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:48 pm

I've always liked how Mike swings and how he teaches. Good sounding strikes also.
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Re: Hogan "Saturday Evening Post"

Postby stevemcgee99 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:00 pm

lagpressure wrote:This is real golf folks, not like what the game has morphed into today. He talks about the courses over there being
cheap to play, how they only mowed the fairways once a month and the greens once a week... to keep the game affordable.
How the wind could be a 6 club difference, how he had to adapt to the small ball...


If you ever wondered where all the wind in the world ends up, it's here. 150 yards, I used 3-iron and just made it past the fringe between the two front bunkers on the left, hitting it low in almost a straight line.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Range Rat » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:19 am

Maves seems like a good guy for sure, and COG leading certainly has to be a power move. Not sure how Maves describes his overall motion but one way is to sense it like pitching horseshoes, for full and partial shots.

In tossing shoes, the most important piece is the legs and how they flex and extend for power assistance in throwing the shoe up into the air with the hand continuing to extend toward the stake. Moe Norman said he felt like extending his hand toward the flagstick during the finish to shake hands with it- might be close to the same idea.
But the arm positioning within the motion is different- more pendulum-like for shoes, and more carry angle-like within the trail arm for golf because we're to the side of things.

Hogan's old man was a blacksmith, I wonder if Ben ever tossed shoes, because Moe said he and Ben were the only two people who swung the same. Maybe they had horseshoes in their thinking. Mashie had some words before on horseshoes and pitching, same kind of deal for the most part. Pretty good leg set here.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Range Rat » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:05 am

Poor Ben, he must be feeling lonely these days what with all the talk on other threads about holding shaft flex, truth and errors about force, keeping the hands out front, involuntary reflex movements, a mysterious new pivot, yada yada yada.

From the Rat stash I made up this gif I found pretty nice, and it's a good angle on it too. Hogan's knees and hips are basically level to the horizon and they are still level as shown at that point in the motion. Of course, there is a middle piece of movement not showing which allows going from level-to-level prior to really turning through the strike. So he took a level pelvis and knee orientation and moved it several inches forward establishing another level, but lower, pelvic and knee platform so he could kick the tires and light the fires :)

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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:39 pm

Flat.jpg
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A lot of the old hickories I have picked up have been this flat. I would think that Hogan as a kid, probably saw things like this laying around from the previous era. He more likely than not would have seen some of the older folk still hitting them out on the course.

Does the swing evolve from the gear used as a youth? Absolutely.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:29 pm

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Always an interesting pic to study and or contemplate.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby norcalvol » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:26 am

Range Rat wrote:Poor Ben, he must be feeling lonely these days what with all the talk on other threads about holding shaft flex, truth and errors about force, keeping the hands out front, involuntary reflex movements, a mysterious new pivot, yada yada yada.

From the Rat stash I made up this gif I found pretty nice, and it's a good angle on it too. Hogan's knees and hips are basically level to the horizon and they are still level as shown at that point in the motion. Of course, there is a middle piece of movement not showing which allows going from level-to-level prior to really turning through the strike. So he took a level pelvis and knee orientation and moved it several inches forward establishing another level, but lower, pelvic and knee platform so he could kick the tires and light the fires :)

output_g1PL3T.gif


What strikes me from the outset about the gif is his weight distribution. The difference between address and just before P3 appears striking and unexpected. Photos can be misleading, but it appears his weight has shifted to his left earlier than what I would expect.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby twomasters » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:20 am

norcalvol wrote:What strikes me from the outset about the gif is his weight distribution. The difference between address and just before P3 appears striking and unexpected. Photos can be misleading, but it appears his weight has shifted to his left earlier than what I would expect.


Lag may give a better response than me...but looks can be deceiving.
I believe Hogan worked into more of a straighter right leg on his backswing (than many) and the illusion of falling as far forward or lateral is because of the hip slant he created by utilizing this straighter right leg.... a big cause of so many people believing Hogan (or that we ourselves need to) get over to the left side...instead of using the rear leg to load into in transition
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby lagpressure » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:20 am

twomasters wrote:
norcalvol wrote:What strikes me from the outset about the gif is his weight distribution. The difference between address and just before P3 appears striking and unexpected. Photos can be misleading, but it appears his weight has shifted to his left earlier than what I would expect.


Lag may give a better response than me...but looks can be deceiving.
I believe Hogan worked into more of a straighter right leg on his backswing (than many) and the illusion of falling as far forward or lateral is because of the hip slant he created by utilizing this straighter right leg.... a big cause of so many people believing Hogan (or that we ourselves need to) get over to the left side...instead of using the rear leg to load into in transition


There is also a technique we teach of falling into the left leg... it's recommended for quicker tempo swings... and appears to happen much earlier because gravity can be a bit slower to work at first.

Think of it this way...

Suppose you have 100% of your weight on your right leg at transition. Then you lifted your left leg off the ground and just fell left toward the target. The whole time you are falling (which could be a lot) all of your weight is still on your right leg, even though your hips are gliding toward the target.

Of course we can also push off the right foot in several combinations depending upon what the right knee is doing. You can fall some and push, or Snead squat and push, or squat, fall push.

To push we have to have some flex in the right knee... some range of motion there for the right leg to straighten so that it can push. You could keep the right leg straight and just fall.

Then the amount of falling depends upon the vertical strength of the left leg to catch the fall ... or when it basically lands into the left leg. The longer you wait, the stronger and more abrupt the catch must be.

So a lot of ways to do it.... combinations etc.

I think Hogan's way was the most sophisticated and advanced way. I recently did a lengthy dissertation about all of this in one of the student modules and have a video sitting in final cut pro right now ready for editing this week.... but essentially it comes down to that interaction between weight transfer, torso rotation and slotting the club. It all works together and it's pretty amazing stuff he came up with... the logical path Hogan took to come to that kind of action is just stunningly brilliant, it really is.
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Re: Thoughts on Ben Hogan

Postby Frozen Divots » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:42 pm

Now let’s add to why Hogan went to his left the way he did. The best way to power a club is angular momentum into handle until clubhead becomes the angular momentum. The pole flip, like a slinky down the stairs, whatever.

Now seeing as he was at a plane at or under trail shoulder, what were his choices? With his pelvic position, he had none! He had to work left that way. If he didn’t, he throws the clubhead away. Don’t fall for the illusion of the hold...it looks the same. A hold is a throw away, just slower.

He was simply creating space to ‘cut himself in half’

It’s a ‘get out of the way move’ for the best way to pressure a golf club.
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