Flat vs Upright

Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby lagpressure » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:59 pm

sixpackkid,

You are correct about backswings being upright having bigger loops to get back to 4:30. I really have no problem with a player doing that.. look at Furyk...

But, the question is... is that really necessary? absolutely not..
I suspect that these guys that go up then down, like a quicker tempo, but at the same time feel they need more time to get things lined up, so they "take the long way home" to re route to 4:30. A longer backswing would require a quicker hand speed given the same time frame to go from point a to point b.. let's say initial takeaway to impact.

Floyd was a classic example of the inside takeaway.. Knudson was very inside, Moe, and Peter Senior also. Steve Pate, Craig Parry, all inside paths going back.. Is this ok? ABSOLUTELY! Some players like to feel the 4:30 line on the backswing..

Others of course feel the outside path helps through the club flat on the downswing.. and I really like this move too. Trevino was the poster child for this protocol. Lanny Watkins also. Furyk of course. Even Hogan had a unique spin on this type of action.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby lagpressure » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:11 pm

Robbo,

You are correct.. by saving right arm you save wrist cock also. There is a very strong relationship between right elbow bend, and wristcock.

When the right arm straightens our quickly so does wristcock. This is really right at the heart of swinging vs hitting.

This topic has been beaten to death on other forums as most of us know.. but it's the right HAND that HITS... just as Hogan said.. Hogan was not wrong.

The right arm straightening quickly into impact moves the shaft off plane and rolls the clubface. This is the classic TGM down and out stuff, that is wrapped in complicated physics and geometry.. and brings a huge timing element into the golf swing. This is where the VJ's live and ball beaters that fear their feel coming and going. Nicklaus made golf look like it would require great concentration and became the games best.. but I like the idea of golf feeling easy, not difficult.. but that's just me! 8-)

Most TGM instructors confuse the appearance of the right arm being PULLED straight by the extremely powerful CF pull....as evidence that the right arm is actively driving.. this is NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. You can actively drive the right arm out to right field too, but you will loose great distance and clubhead speed doing this. Most of these guys who fly the arms off the body are CF swinging.. Fred Couples and VJ are classic examples of CF swinging done correctly. We know they are not driving the right arm because their right hand is almost falling off the club. It's very passive..
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby lagpressure » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:32 pm

Peter Senior, cutting it left, keeping the shaft on plane, not rolling the clubface, and keeping wrist cock right around the bend.
Very little timing going on here..

ps6.jpg
ps6.jpg (465.66 KiB) Viewed 7529 times


He has about the best accumulator #3 rotation I have seen along with Hogan. Notice the frame before impact how his clubface rotates about 90 degrees from about 3 feet before impact. This is happening from a vicious right hand strike.

I'll be posting a detailed review of this incredible golf swing in the private student area.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Addington Arnie » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:26 am

Wonderful sequence Lag - really, really looking forward to the detailed review!

Cheers, Arnie
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Zoulfly » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:28 pm

robbo wrote:br,

... #3 accumulator ...

I used to "fight" having too much #3 acc left at impact.... Lag has helped me embrace it.

Robbo


Robbo (or whoever can explain)

what IS exactly the #3 acc? I have read the description (angle betw. club shaft and left forearm, indep. of wrist cock) but I'm not sure if I understand it correctly. The way I understand it: more or less the motion we do in drill 1, when we load the club at the 4:30 position (with an element of wrist cock to get the club a bit higher). Right/wrong?
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Mashie72 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:57 pm

Zoufly,

You've got the definition right...Hold the club with your left hand only. Then think of a case (club held more in the palm) of "Zero" Acc#3 and turn your left wrist to the right. The clubhead doesn't move much. If you hold the the club with "Max" Acc#3 and turn your wrist to the right, the clubhead moves three feet.

Hope it helps
"The secret is on the deck"
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby robbo » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:03 pm

Zou,

Mashie provides a good description. Remember also that you're assuming a "geometrically" flat left wrist (I think that's the term).

One thing you mentioned in your description is that it's independent of wrist cock. I don't think that's the case. The more wrist cock you retain into impact, the greater the #3 accumulator would be (I'm pretty sure anyway). Does that make sense?
If your left wrist was totally uncocked at impact, you would "almost" form a straight line between your left forearm and the shaft when viewed from dtl. If you had some wrist cock remaining, you would have more angle between your left forearm and the shaft at impact. That residual angle can create quite a bit of power (I think TGM calls it transfer power) as it moves/rotates through impact.

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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Zoulfly » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:14 am

Thanks mashie/robbo,

Mmm, thanks. I think I have it right then. So I get the most "gearing" with a 90 degree angle between shaft and left arm, at least if you measure the distance traveled by club head.
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Mashie72 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:44 pm

You’re welcome Zoufly…and

:geek:

as a couple of sidebars in the Little Yellow Book in Chapter 12, Homer talks about “Basic Motion Curriculum” where the club travels 2-feet back and 2-feet through. Here Homer says to zero out Acc#3. And I think Lag mentioned one time that in his version of the TGM book, ACC#3 is also the angle between the shaft and the right forearm..
"The secret is on the deck"
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Re: Flat vs Upright

Postby Zoulfly » Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:35 pm

Mashie72 wrote:You’re welcome Zoufly…and

:geek:

as a couple of sidebars in the Little Yellow Book in Chapter 12, Homer talks about “Basic Motion Curriculum” where the club travels 2-feet back and 2-feet through. Here Homer says to zero out Acc#3. And I think Lag mentioned one time that in his version of the TGM book, ACC#3 is also the angle between the shaft and the right forearm..


Hmm, I think I stick to Lag's drills for now. I'm afraid of getting to technical :)
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