Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby Steve P » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:06 pm

In baseball in Colorado the balls were stored in the dry air and became hard and made them jump off the bats. MLB stepped in with the humidor. I do think the ball should be changed for the pros in golf. Limit the flight and make it spin more. Easily done with today's technology. I say let them play with whatever clubs they want but regulate the ball.
That said Augusta is still the best tournament of the year. Back nine on Sunday always has drama. As a fan that's all I want.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby Wknhacker » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:13 pm

Steve P wrote: That said Augusta is still the best tournament of the year. Back nine on Sunday always has drama. As a fan that's all I want.


Excellent point. I totally agree. But thank goodness for the blustery conditions on the first 3 days which evened up the playing field and set up a belter of a final day.

But I do think at this point in time, and given that the greatest player of all time is begging and pleading for a roll back with the ball, something will be done. If not, then every 2 years or so they will have to keep on butchering all these classic courses until they are all 10,000 yards.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby 20 Mule Team » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:34 am

Rolling back the ball specs would be a good start, imo, but would not be nearly enough. You'd still have clubs that are too large, too long, too light, and with too high a coefficient of restitution. Here's what I'd like to see in addition to a ball adjustment:

1) Cap the clubhead size, let's say 225 cc.
2) Rollback the allowable COR to 0.78-79 (comparable to persimmon).
3) Set a minimum weight limit on clubs, let's say 12.5 oz (365+/- grams).
4) Set a maximum club length of 44.5 inches (including putters).

I think you would have to address all of these points if you want to get the game back to its traditions.

How ironic is it that the only equipment stand the governing bodies have taken is on anchored putters? I guess they can't see the beam in their eye for the speck.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby Mashie72 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:33 am

20 Mule Team wrote:Rolling back the ball specs would be a good start, imo, but would not be nearly enough. You'd still have clubs that are too large, too long, too light, and with too high a coefficient of restitution. Here's what I'd like to see in addition to a ball adjustment:

1) Cap the clubhead size, let's say 225 cc.


I agree. The heads need to be much smaller and/or with shallow faces. Therefore you bring risk back into play with a sky ball or a potential heel/toe shot if you swing it 120 mph. Or maybe the heads get proportionally smaller & smaller with each increase in distance. At the extreme would be the "Stubby Driver" that goes the farthest but has the biggest risk if you choose to put it in your bag.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby lagpressure » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:15 am

Certainly golf used to be a traditional game.

Golf just can't be called a traditional game anymore, not by the USGA, The Masters or anyone who has a frying pan in their bag.

The game had a great tradition. That tradition could be embraced at any point, it just has to go back to those essential traditions. That would leave a gap in the game of "the bizarre years" or the non traditional years. 1998 to 2016" if it happened next year.

While I know it is not going to happen, but to me, if it did happen... and the game was reset, that would actually be a lot less bizarre than what happened over the last 20 years.

While 20 years seems like a long time, it's not really very long if you look at the age of steel and persimmon that reigned 60 plus years.

The old game I think was better because the courses didn't have to be as long so rounds were shorter in time and costs of maintenance were far less. Also with the greens in good condition but not immaculate, that also cut down on costs. The sound of the persimmon and balata was much more beautiful to the ears. The high spinning ball really separated the skill sets of players at every level which I think is a good thing. You should be rewarded for getting better... and it was really apparent in the proper game. The golf swings were much better. More demanding upon the body and the body would respond with practice and training. Golf was more affordable. Players had better shoes to wear (they really gripped the ground properly) and this led to better golf swings.

The only thing I think that is better today is that the game has a more international flavor. It still did in the past, but there are more quality Asian players which I think is good. But I don't think this couldn't have happened had the game stayed traditional. The Asian culture has a history of embracing tradition as much or more than Europeans over the centuries. I don't think it has only to do with technology.

Technology is good in so many ways, just like taking vitamins, but too much of anything can have a negative effect and we are certainly seeing some negative effects for the overuse or abuse of technology. Eventually it will sort itself out I would imagine.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby Steve P » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:29 pm

If the ball was designed such that it had more spin and that a perfect 125 mph strike would send it max 300 carry all would be right with the world again. It's easily possible to let the recreational and amateur world play with the juiced ball and require the ball for the pros to be within strict specs. The extra spin would quickly spell disaster for poor strikers who swing hard regardless of the club used. The max pro drive would be what 320? Seems fair that's at 125 swing speed with a perfect enough strike to keep the spin down. :D
All pros should have to play the same basic ball. They could choose maybe a little more or less spin but no juiced distance balls.
IMO the pros all hit the sweet spot regularly so clubs make little difference. I would not like to see forests being cut down to make way for a bunch more wooden clubs and no one is going to support that.
The issue is the ball. Limit the flight and increase the spin and the courses we all love remain relevant and will be played as designed.
The advantage of the bombers will be limited due to more spin. Long iron shots would be in play more. Around the greens they would probably be even better with more spin to use. The average driving distance would come down quite a bit and long hitters would still have an advantage but only if they were long and straight. As it is right now it's a bit too easy for them.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby lagpressure » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:38 am

Steve P wrote:If the ball was designed such that it had more spin and that a perfect 125 mph strike would send it max 300 carry all would be right with the world again. It's easily possible to let the recreational and amateur world play with the juiced ball and require the ball for the pros to be within strict specs. The extra spin would quickly spell disaster for poor strikers who swing hard regardless of the club used. The max pro drive would be what 320? Seems fair that's at 125 swing speed with a perfect enough strike to keep the spin down. :D
All pros should have to play the same basic ball. They could choose maybe a little more or less spin but no juiced distance balls.
IMO the pros all hit the sweet spot regularly so clubs make little difference. I would not like to see forests being cut down to make way for a bunch more wooden clubs and no one is going to support that.
The issue is the ball. Limit the flight and increase the spin and the courses we all love remain relevant and will be played as designed.
The advantage of the bombers will be limited due to more spin. Long iron shots would be in play more. Around the greens they would probably be even better with more spin to use. The average driving distance would come down quite a bit and long hitters would still have an advantage but only if they were long and straight. As it is right now it's a bit too easy for them.


The big head size with the driver is a problem because it allows the players to swing so much harder at the golf ball than they ever could with a persimmon or the smaller traditional size metal woods. I personally never liked metal woods. I didn't like the sound or the feel of them and to me they were a break from tradition. Not sure what happened to woods and irons, but that was the game that had been played even going back into the hickory era. Woods and irons. Baseball uses wooden bats still today. It's a tradition, the crack of the wood and it keeps the ball parks relevant. They also have restrictions on the size of the bat diameter. Metal woods never should have been allowed in my opinion. But since they did, then they should have put traditional restrictions upon them.

When the head is so big, there is no fear of missing the ball, sky popping one, topping it etc. The driver head size is way out of sync with the irons, just as long putters look way out of sync sticking out of a golf bag. The technique used to hit a frying pan is out of sync with the swings used to play iron shots just as the long putter technique makes it look like another sport.

As far as sweetspot, I saw one of those high speed camera captures of Nick Watney hitting one way out on the toe of the club and the ball sail 300 yards and found the fairway. It's posted on this site somewhere. He would have nearly missed the ball with a persimmon. One had to be much more precise with their swing and ball contact. It makes the brain focus much more on the precision aspect of the strike. I don't see any downside to that at the professional level. It should be expected. I would like to see more people inspired by Hogan than Bubba Watson. I was disappointed to hear Bubba, a two time Augusta Invitational champion complaining about the US Open being too hard because the rough was too long and the fairways too narrow. That's simply commentary from the modern era. I never heard a Master's champion say such things.
To me, it's not good.

As far as the amateurs, who cares really. Each club could have their own rules or each state, county or provincial association just like other sports. They are doing that anyway. There is a golf course near here that is cutting a bigger hole like a basketball hoop size to speed up play. It's just a lot less time on the greens. They also have people kicking a soccer ball down the fairways. Who cares if it is just for recreation or exercise. Frsibee golf seems fine to me.

But if we are talking golf in a traditional sense, I think the changes have been have no advantage to the game or to the players or the tradtional and really have been disrespectul to the generations that came before who left such a beautiful game, courses and legacy.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby Steve P » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:33 pm

If the ball only goes so far it doesn't matter what you hit it with. The argument for old out of date gear is purely emotional.
The ball needs to be changed the gear no. That is my personal opinion.
I enjoy hitting my m85 clubs but it's a novelty nothing more.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby LesMurray » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:53 pm

Steve P wrote:If the ball only goes so far it doesn't matter what you hit it with. The argument for old out of date gear is purely emotional.
The ball needs to be changed the gear no. That is my personal opinion.
I enjoy hitting my m85 clubs but it's a novelty nothing more.


Not exactly true. There is a bit of skill and some restraint required to hit a persimmon well that is not required with the today's toasters. If you reduce club head size to something similar to a persimmon or the first metal woods, and dial back the cor then you will both reduce distance and reintroduce that skill. When you have a driver face over twice the size larger you have more margin for error at contact.
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Re: Jack Nicklaus: Change the ball not #13 at Augusta

Postby stevemcgee99 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:37 pm

Doesn't have to be persimmon wood to be smaller, heavier, and have the impact properties. Laminates work just fine. And there are many many species of trees in the world. Persimmon is not the only option, and anyway it can be farmed. How's the prospect of persimmon farming for the golf industry as opposed to mining?
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