Stuck, under plane, etc..

Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:38 pm

For some reason I can't edit after like 39 seconds wth is this a nazi forum lol :ugeek:
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:49 pm

What reason did he have by putting in so much on the bs? IMO it's because he was looking for a specific position so you could fire from that.
Now in reality I think most develop their own take on bs but that means they also build in inefficiency compared to Hogan.
Poor bs means elongated transition. Common sense. :ugeek:
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby norcalvol » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:21 pm

I find this discussion extremely interesting... but I want to make a comment so that this discussion isn't on two parallel but different tracks. Because if it is, it will go nowhere fast.

As a premise, think of religion --- there is Method and there is Truth (whatever that is or purported to be).
When one is not confused for the other (rare), there is understanding (very rare).
But when people and societies confuse Method for Truth (all too common), that's when things go downhill really fast, ending up in conflict (endless).

So back to Hogan and the golf swing...

There is instruction, and then there is what actually happens.
Instruction is about instilling proper intentions via methods, which in many cases are drills that comprise highly exaggerated movements designed to allow the student to get a certain tangible feeling through those movements within the context of a proper intention. That, over time, seeps into the students swing.

So, when we talk about delaying a pivot to conserve much of it for post impact... perhaps there is a bit of intention/method involved as opposed to what actually happens... perhaps it is intention/method to prevent a train wreck from actually happening. I don't think ABS teaches the Hogan swing per se, but instead uses it as one of many examples for certain, specific reasons.

Let me know if I'm off track... hopefully Lag will do that if I am... but I wanted to offer my two cents to possibly prevent a different type of train wreck.
Accelerate forever!
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:30 pm

I am not saying people have to do Hogan to have success. I am just saying what he did. It's not wait then go it's not tempo.
There's no point in his swing when he's not active. For him it was go time. :ugeek:
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby LesMurray » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:55 pm

Steve P wrote:I am not saying people have to do Hogan to have success. I am just saying what he did. It's not wait then go it's not tempo.
There's no point in his swing when he's not active. For him it was go time. :ugeek:


Every part has its time to go. When the wrong part goes at the wrong time - train wreck.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby lagpressure » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:07 pm

Steve P wrote:I am not saying people have to do Hogan to have success. I am just saying what he did. It's not wait then go it's not tempo.
There's no point in his swing when he's not active. For him it was go time. :ugeek:


I understand what you are saying, but I think you need to look deeper into this.
Certainly Hogan didn't turn his hips and shoulders as quickly as possible toward the target as he could have?

I can certainly swing a club and spin my hips and shoulders counterclockwise quickly right from the top.... from there my arms and club can stay back, then drop down to the ball... but this will leave me with little or nothing to keep pressure on the shaft through the strike.

So the delay needs to happen through a biomechanical action that DOES as you say keep things fully engaged.
Therefore we need to embrace the opposing forces and pressures we can harness to achieve this objective.
We have protocols for foot pressures into the ground, the action of the knees, directional pressures in the torquing of the legs, feet, knees etc... everything is embraced in what I call a cohesive body tension that allows this connection to be activated, sustained and moved through time while being essentially locked in by opposing forces. Arms, shoulders, chest and torso.. it's all fully engaged and moving.

But when done correctly, it does create a delay compared relatively to a quick unwinding of pivot components.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby lagpressure » Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Steve P wrote:What reason did he have by putting in so much on the bs? IMO it's because he was looking for a specific position so you could fire from that.
Now in reality I think most develop their own take on bs but that means they also build in inefficiency compared to Hogan.
Poor bs means elongated transition. Common sense. :ugeek:


What do you think is the proper way to initiate the downswing?

Is there more than one way to do it with expert results?
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:11 pm

lagpressure wrote:
Steve P wrote:I am not saying people have to do Hogan to have success. I am just saying what he did. It's not wait then go it's not tempo.
There's no point in his swing when he's not active. For him it was go time. :ugeek:


I understand what you are saying, but I think you need to look deeper into this.
Certainly Hogan didn't turn his hips and shoulders as quickly as possible toward the target as he could have?

I can certainly swing a club and spin my hips and shoulders counterclockwise quickly right from the top.... from there my arms and club can stay back, then drop down to the ball... but this will leave me with little or nothing to keep pressure on the shaft through the strike.

So the delay needs to happen through a biomechanical action that DOES as you say keep things fully engaged.
Therefore we need to embrace the opposing forces and pressures we can harness to achieve this objective.
We have protocols for foot pressures into the ground, the action of the knees, directional pressures in the torquing of the legs, feet, knees etc... everything is embraced in what I call a cohesive body tension that allows this connection to be activated, sustained and moved through time while being essentially locked in by opposing forces. Arms, shoulders, chest and torso.. it's all fully engaged and moving.

But when done correctly, it does create a delay compared relatively to a quick unwinding of pivot components.


I think at times he did fire just as fast as he could. He said on a full drive sometimes he hit it as hard as he could. I think his sequence allowed him to do that and keep it on his lines.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:15 pm

lagpressure wrote:
Steve P wrote:What reason did he have by putting in so much on the bs? IMO it's because he was looking for a specific position so you could fire from that.
Now in reality I think most develop their own take on bs but that means they also build in inefficiency compared to Hogan.
Poor bs means elongated transition. Common sense. :ugeek:


What do you think is the proper way to initiate the downswing?

Is there more than one way to do it with expert results?



My take matches Hogan from the book. Left hip starts the unwind. In practice I don't think it's a bs stop and then initiate a ds.
In practice it's more of a flow in my opinion. Somethings always moving.
As to your second question I can't say for sure. :ugeek:
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:35 pm

One thing I think related to initiating the ds is that if you can 'fire' your hips in isolation from the top and it has no effect on the shoulders then you did not wind up correctly. Nor is it advisable to think of 'firing' anything at any point.
My idea is you kind of have live tension and everything from the clubhead to your toes is connected. As you rotate and swing this tension keeps everything connected and makes it seem like the clubface is stable. If the rotation stops all is lost.
I have seen women golfers especially be able to make a large move with the hips but nothing goes to the shoulders. IMO this is bad.
As far as hands in transition I agree with Hogan they are quiet. I don't believe there's really anything conscious to do in transition it's just a point in the swing and you continue through it like the bs and Ds. I like how Hogan described it as the first and second parts of the one swing. It's one swing. I don't like trying to break it into parts. If I were to think in parts especially in transition I doubt I could break 100.
It's very hard to write about the swing. Volumes have been written and in practice it can be done with no thought at all during the actual motion.
That's my take on it. :ugeek:
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