Stuck, under plane, etc..

Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby LesMurray » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:41 pm

I think the down move is critical - loading into the right leg. That was never a part of my swing until ABS. I need to feel like I am gathering the club as I transition and then I am free to fire away.

Hogan's tempo was such that you really don't see that down move but I believe it is there.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby HelterSkelter » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:42 am

I think the transition move is definitely there. From 20-26 seconds.

He does not go down as much as he has a fairly straight right leg to begin with, and he pushes forward a lot off the inside of his right foot.

Maybe some would drop more and go less lateral, but it is a very similar idea. He is still feeling the opposing forces between the shoulders and the slotting club.

It pretty much guarantees that you don't ever sway off the ball, as you are pushing from the start, the push is then increased in transition and then through the ball.

It's still pretty similar and totally in line with what ABS teaches.

He has a ton of opposing forces going on there. No normal person is ever going to look like that.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby lagpressure » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:19 am

Steve P wrote:One thing I think related to initiating the ds is that if you can 'fire' your hips in isolation from the top and it has no effect on the shoulders then you did not wind up correctly. Nor is it advisable to think of 'firing' anything at any point.
My idea is you kind of have live tension and everything from the clubhead to your toes is connected. As you rotate and swing this tension keeps everything connected and makes it seem like the clubface is stable. If the rotation stops all is lost.
I have seen women golfers especially be able to make a large move with the hips but nothing goes to the shoulders. IMO this is bad.
As far as hands in transition I agree with Hogan they are quiet. I don't believe there's really anything conscious to do in transition it's just a point in the swing and you continue through it like the bs and Ds. I like how Hogan described it as the first and second parts of the one swing. It's one swing. I don't like trying to break it into parts. If I were to think in parts especially in transition I doubt I could break 100.
It's very hard to write about the swing. Volumes have been written and in practice it can be done with no thought at all during the actual motion.
That's my take on it. :ugeek:


So you just wind up, take it back, keep a connected flowing motion, spin your hips as hard and fast counter clockwise toward the target and the ball is just going to fly out there as Hogan said as long as you don't have a thought in your head?

Just put your fingers on the piano and just feel the music.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby fontaine32 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:07 am

David Frost asked Hogan a backswing question at Shady Oaks.. Ben replied 'You don't hit the ball on your backswing son." Then walked away.. Bobby Jones did pretty well by dragging it inside, up and across the line.. Calvin Peete comes to mind as well.. What I'm getting at is your upper body can go too fast too soon then that will pressure the shaft down and around instead of forward as Hogan stated in the coleman video when discussing grip pressure.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Stu Carlburger » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:40 am

I think a point that needs to be taken into consideration regarding, "what Hogan said ..." is to whom he was saying it. In 5 Lessons when discussing the sequencing, he was likely writing to the average player who probably needs to feel like he gets those hips turning immediate rather than the shoulders.

To me Steve, this "delay" that you seem so opposed to is nothing more that allowing the club to drop and shallow a bit BEFORE the rotation starts as the rotation will ALWAYS cause the club shaft to steepen/come OTT. It's the same in baseball, lacrosse, skipping stones, swinging a sword, etc.

I've found a deep sense of calm and control when I find myself with a deep wrist set, the resulting lag, nice knee flex, and all my rotation available. From that "position" (even though it's not really a position) I feel like I can calmly choose how I want to strike the ball, and what shape I want to impart -- I'm in command. You can ask Bradley, I was an "early-left'er" before I started working with him. To the untrained eye my swing was flowing and my body movement looked great. But, it was early, and the result was a lot of hand action to save the shot. Worse still was when I'd try to give it a bit extra power. I'd REALLY get the body going from the top -- which is what you seem to prescribe -- and would be EVEN EARILER, thus causing more of a need for the hand save.

No thanks! When I was competing and had nothing else to do but practice (hone timing) I could play a bit. But, when family and work limit ones time to sharpen this timing, my shots could go anywhere. I love the feeling now where I can drill, and work the sequencing properly, and eliminate as much timing as possible. It takes just a few balls on the range to get a feel for the swing that day, and "self-correction" is a snap.

The change feels like little more than a beat from the top with oily arms and a willingness to drop into the right leg. Pretty simple, but it takes a lot of little components -- grip, stances, tension/no tension -- to make it work. Personally, I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:19 am

For Hogan it was sequence not timing. If he made his moves correctly he could go as fast as he wanted.
He was never out of position.
Hogans transition sequence was based on the shift left. He said there must be enough lateral motion forward to transfer weight to the left foot. He maintains pressure right as well because of axis tilt. The lateral shift is a tiny blink of time there.
Look at the slo mo. It's straight out of 5l.
Most people myself included don't shift left like Hogan. But I am not talking about what each player does. That is individual.
I am just pointing out what Hogan did.
Like he taught Schlee the first move is establishing the ds pivot point.
I am not saying to do that I am just describing what he did. It's plain to see in slow motion.
The basis is torso rotation. For Hogan torso rotation was not something he ever held back. If anything he wanted to rotate faster.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:24 am

I also think and this is jmo that he had quite a fair bit of live tension in his arms. Without this his pivot would have left them behind. You can see on the ds he's never stuck. :ugeek:
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby Steve P » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:30 am

lagpressure wrote:
Steve P wrote:One thing I think related to initiating the ds is that if you can 'fire' your hips in isolation from the top and it has no effect on the shoulders then you did not wind up correctly. Nor is it advisable to think of 'firing' anything at any point.
My idea is you kind of have live tension and everything from the clubhead to your toes is connected. As you rotate and swing this tension keeps everything connected and makes it seem like the clubface is stable. If the rotation stops all is lost.
I have seen women golfers especially be able to make a large move with the hips but nothing goes to the shoulders. IMO this is bad.
As far as hands in transition I agree with Hogan they are quiet. I don't believe there's really anything conscious to do in transition it's just a point in the swing and you continue through it like the bs and Ds. I like how Hogan described it as the first and second parts of the one swing. It's one swing. I don't like trying to break it into parts. If I were to think in parts especially in transition I doubt I could break 100.
It's very hard to write about the swing. Volumes have been written and in practice it can be done with no thought at all during the actual motion.
That's my take on it. :ugeek:


So you just wind up, take it back, keep a connected flowing motion, spin your hips as hard and fast counter clockwise toward the target and the ball is just going to fly out there as Hogan said as long as you don't have a thought in your head?

Just put your fingers on the piano and just feel the music.




That's not fair. Remember Hogan said moving the hips correctly. A counter clockwise spin is incorrect. I do believe in practice though golf should be kept simple.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby lagpressure » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:08 pm

0006NEUHOGANHIPSPIN.jpg
0006NEUHOGANHIPSPIN.jpg (15.76 KiB) Viewed 1924 times


Well, I would NEVER teach a student to do this. I can't think of a more poisonous thought or action to focus on.
Spin the hips open right from the top and throw the club at the ball with an early uncocking of the wrists? :?

This illustration could more easily be interpreted as a counter clockwise spin than holding the hips back for a later firing.
He certainly didn't do this in his swing.. it's almost the complete opposite because he had the most delayed rotation of the hips in the history of golf swings.

Please explain?

5 Lessons is just incredibly cryptic. I could only suppose that the two drawings below establish what needs to happen before and after the bigger illustration can be considered, but there is no proper explanation to accompany it.

Keeping the swing simple is easy. Just swing the club and shoot a 100 and go home to your wife and be glad you have a day job.
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Re: Stuck, under plane, etc..

Postby lagpressure » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:29 pm

Hogan2.jpg
Hogan2.jpg (34.44 KiB) Viewed 1913 times

Throw the arm out, away and off the body?

hogan1.jpg
hogan1.jpg (50.29 KiB) Viewed 1911 times

Spin the hips open as fast as possible from the top?

Hogan-left-wrist-action.jpg
Hogan-left-wrist-action.jpg (91.28 KiB) Viewed 1911 times

Flick the left wrist over counter clockwise as fast as possible post impact?

Maybe 5 Lessons should have been named 5 things to work on to make sure you never swing anything like Ben Hogan. 8-)
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