thanks guru.

“drag loading on a rapidly spinning pivot”.

this good? bad? ugly? it is what it is?

any one thing stand out that requires working on?

Stick this up in a new thread and the brains trust can tinker with ideas there. Your swing is “off topic” in this thread.

You will get plenty of chat:)

Thanks for the question, Macs.

The inert left arm does nothing. It is mildly stretched taut with Extensor action pressure on the #1 or #3 pressure point (to include the shaft, but increasing chance of throwaway) ’Äúlending indispensable control to all strokes.”

The straightening right elbow is roll power and control.
Roll power and impact swivel are two different things.

Try it without a club.
Set up the flying wedges by grabbing the left thumb with the right palm and just bend and straighten the right elbow in its normal right forearm takeaway ’Äúfanning” motion, up/back/in, down/out/through. It will roll the left wrist even with the ’Äúno roll” feel of angle hinging.

While we're here, note that the bending right elbow will raise or lower the left arm and cock or uncock the left wrist, without cocking the right or changing its bend. (Assuming the recommended strong, single-action grip.) Practice that until you see that it does. For a swinger CF alone uncocks the left wrist. Hitters manually do it with the drive out action of the straightening right elbow.

The recommended plane angle is the turned shoulder plane with zero shift, but the initial takeaway has to start on the shaft plane.
How far away you stand is a factor in that angle relative to the body, and the height of the hands. See Moe Norman.

A plane shift to a lower plane lowers the hands increasing the accum #3 angle (residual wrist cock). However that increases the travel distance which results in a lower speed, requiring faster hands and an early release trigger.

The ’Äúon plane” right forearm always establishes and maintains the correct clubshaft-left arm angle through release and impact. It's part of The Magic of the Right Forearm. The lowest plane angle that will allow the right forearm to be on plane is the elbow plane. The right forearm can't get on plane until the elbow does. (pot pourri)

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

Great Post.

Furthermore, the Left Wrist Uncocks, then swivels into Impact, then Hinges to Both Arms Straight. Thus, High Hands ensure a Turned Shoulder Plane Clubshaft Angle and Lowered Hands are for the Elbow Plane. Hinging and their differences and the #3 Accumulator Angle are demonstrated with an Uncocked Left Wrist.

The #3 Accumulator Roll of the Swingers Sequenced release is superimposed on the Hinge. It acts like the Hinge.

details.

Marion,

If you are indeed averaging 32 putts per round, that is not all that bad.
If you hit zero greens a round with 32 putts you should be about 14 over par or shooting 86. Now you say you are averaging 80.. so that tells me you are hitting about 6 greens per round.

You say you are a pretty good short iron player, so would assume with a driver swing that is blasting the ball 280 to 300 yards, you are not finding the fairway much.

I would first, take a serious look at how you are managing your game around the golf course.

Try going out onto the golf course, and thinking about things this way…
from the tee, what club do I need to hit so that with 90 percent certainty you will hit the ball in the fairway? Can you do that with a hybrid? a 4 iron? a six iron?

Go through this in you head from the tee. Just pull the club that you know will put you in the fairway.

Next, when you look at the green, notice where the pin is. If you are going to play to miss the green short, which side of the fairway will give you the easiest angle to the pin with the most green to work with?

When you start to think more along these lines, you are starting to think more like a fox than a buffalo.

Change your emphasis from driving the ball 300 and hitting your irons longer and higher than the average golfer.. to… I desire to hit it straight, and pride yourself more on fairways and greens hit.

I think then, your inner golf mind will lead you in the right direction to golfing improvement.

When you understand that acceleration trumps velocity, you’ll hear the true call…

Lag,

Just checked my stats:
50% driving accuracy
47% GIR
32 putts per round.
33% up and down
30% sand saves

i wish i could hit my irons high too.

Either learn to hit with an Angled Hinge or look to soften up the shafts you are playing with.

Ballooning is no good but rabbit runners do not help biting into the green either.

If your hitting the driver near 300, and 50% of your fairways, your ready for the tour… right there with Phil, Tiger, and VJ.

Irons need work, chipping lots of work, and putting some too.

In your swing I see over acceleration as the main culprit, you are certainly not alone.

Your swing is a basically a good canvas to work from..

Hey Lag could you talk more about over acceleration? You say acceleration is more important than velocity but then over acceleration is bad too? What exactly do you see as over acceleration?

Over acceleration leads to clubhead throw away as rhythm goes out the window. The power is sequenced wrongly and breaks the machines fluid motion.

8000 post up. Time for a glass of vino.

Ok, too much too soon kind of thing? I think I get it, it’s kind of early acceleration rather than over? Semantics I guess, but I understand the principle, thanks.

If your hitting the driver near 300, and 50% of your fairways, your ready for the tour… right there with Phil, Tiger, and VJ.

Irons need work, chipping lots of work, and putting some too.

In your swing I see over acceleration as the main culprit, you are certainly not alone.

Your swing is a basically a good canvas to work from..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

You aint wrong about irons needing work! Played a par 72 course on the weekend. Never played before. Course was rated 73 for the day. Guess what, shot 80. I didn’t realise that my irons needed work till I counted the number of greens I missed from 7 iron and in range. Disgusting! If I could hit them well I’d probably shoot mid to low 70’s every time.

Played with last years club champion. Par golf is so boring to watch. They just get the business done hole after hole, not exciting but add up the scorecard at the end of the day and they have just cut you to ribbons.

Ok, too much too soon kind of thing? I think I get it, it's kind of early acceleration rather than over? Semantics I guess, but I understand the principle, thanks.

http://www.golflink.com.au/...

It’s early over acceleration. Way too fast a start down from transition. The right arm gets straight way too soon and now the power fly’s off the end in clubhead throwaway, OTT, massive crappy pivot etc etc.

Gotcha! Sounds familiar, my old self, slowly fading : )

If your hitting the driver near 300, and 50% of your fairways, your ready for the tour… right there with Phil, Tiger, and VJ.

Irons need work, chipping lots of work, and putting some too.

In your swing I see over acceleration as the main culprit, you are certainly not alone.

Your swing is a basically a good canvas to work from..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Well I don’t have the time to do your modules, so wot do I do now to improve the irons? help please!

It’s funny how different things can screw with your score….

I made it a point I wanted to get back to better par 3 iron play a few weeks ago… like I was at the beginning of the season.

I just had a round where I gave myself nearly a 10 foot or less birdie putt on all Par 3’s. But any hole I was off the green I totally lost my chipping… skulled two across the green….. incredible. This game is pure hell I tell you.

Actually though the reason I chimed in: Pre-mature acceleration (viagra probably won’t work) is my biggest problem. It comes from wanting to drive the ball further. But you can get away with it MOST on driver because of club head size and tee height.

This is going to sound lame, but when I am at my worst with it… I actually mimic the tempo of Ernie Els. He stops at the top…boy is that an acceleration killer. A total pause. His tempo gives me a chance.

If your hitting the driver near 300, and 50% of your fairways, your ready for the tour… right there with Phil, Tiger, and VJ.

Irons need work, chipping lots of work, and putting some too.

In your swing I see over acceleration as the main culprit, you are certainly not alone.

Your swing is a basically a good canvas to work from..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Well I don't have the time to do your modules, so wot do I do now to improve the irons? help please!

...you only get out what you put in. There is no quick fix in golf. Magic wands don’t wave and work miracles.
If you don’t have the time then you won’t get the fix.
Not trying to be a smart a**..... just stating the facts. Too many people want the golf fix without wanting to work at
It was all laid out by a few people Lag, Guru that over acceleration too early was the killer of your driver swing- that’s the starting point and lightbulb moment to understand and fix and then run it through the bag of clubs

Over acceleration leads to clubhead throw away as rhythm goes out the window. The power is sequenced wrongly and breaks the machines fluid motion.

8000 post up. Time for a glass of vino.

Il vino e’ buono!

Marion,

If you are indeed averaging 32 putts per round, that is not all that bad.
If you hit zero greens a round with 32 putts you should be about 14 over par or shooting 86. Now you say you are averaging 80.. so that tells me you are hitting about 6 greens per round.

You say you are a pretty good short iron player, so would assume with a driver swing that is blasting the ball 280 to 300 yards, you are not finding the fairway much.

I would first, take a serious look at how you are managing your game around the golf course.

Try going out onto the golf course, and thinking about things this way…
from the tee, what club do I need to hit so that with 90 percent certainty you will hit the ball in the fairway? Can you do that with a hybrid? a 4 iron? a six iron?

Go through this in you head from the tee. Just pull the club that you know will put you in the fairway.

Next, when you look at the green, notice where the pin is. If you are going to play to miss the green short, which side of the fairway will give you the easiest angle to the pin with the most green to work with?

When you start to think more along these lines, you are starting to think more like a fox than a buffalo.

Change your emphasis from driving the ball 300 and hitting your irons longer and higher than the average golfer.. to… I desire to hit it straight, and pride yourself more on fairways and greens hit.

I think then, your inner golf mind will lead you in the right direction to golfing improvement.

When you understand that acceleration trumps velocity, you'll hear the true call…

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

What a beautiful piece of advice this is! Thanks.
I have been thinking more like a buffalo ever since I took up this great game two years ago (or so) and now , thanks to my coach, I am starting to think a bit more like a fox… :) Not confident with the driver, I am using my 3i off the tee with great results as far as fairways hit and surprisingly am so confident with a club that up until 6 weeks ago I never used because I deemed too difficult to hit.
I practise the short game 80% of the time now compared to 10% before too. I can really see my handicap coming down and my goal of reaching 20 or less by the end of the year very achievable…

Stick this up in a new thread and the brains trust can tinker with ideas there. Your swing is ’Äúoff topic” in this thread.

You will get plenty of chat:)

Guru,

8,000 posts. Congratulations. Your commitment is greatly appreciated and valued.

If your hitting the driver near 300, and 50% of your fairways, your ready for the tour… right there with Phil, Tiger, and VJ.

Irons need work, chipping lots of work, and putting some too.

In your swing I see over acceleration as the main culprit, you are certainly not alone.

Your swing is a basically a good canvas to work from..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Well I don't have the time to do your modules, so wot do I do now to improve the irons? help please!

...you only get out what you put in. There is no quick fix in golf. Magic wands don't wave and work miracles.
If you don't have the time then you won't get the fix.
Not trying to be a smart a**..... just stating the facts. Too many people want the golf fix without wanting to work at
It was all laid out by a few people Lag, Guru that over acceleration too early was the killer of your driver swing- that's the starting point and lightbulb moment to understand and fix and then run it through the bag of clubs

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

thanks showme, i don’t beleive there are many quick fixes but originally when I asked for advice on my swing i was after a drill or feeling i could try to incorporate into my swing, thats all, something i could try to gradually work in to my game when i get to play comps or the warm up before hand. i didn’t think this was too much.

perhaps lag being the most accomplished player here may have seen something he might have a remedy for like ”...thing that usually works best for over-accelerating hackers like you is a) b) or c), try and work that into your game”. just something swing related that will obviously work into my game over a very long time given my limited playing time.

he did give me some great course management advice and i thank him for that, but someting swing related is wrong if i can drive 300 and them miss the green with a pitching wedge.

A lesson from a pro is a “quick fix” for me although I know there are links from one to another so over time the improvement sticks, and importantly, there is an expert right there with you to oversee the change and talk about.

So how does the average golfer like me (with time issues) take on a book like Ben Hogan’s Fundamentals of Golf (or a site like this one)? This thing is full of “quick fixes” and of course you can take the whole thing in before you start on any changes to your swing.

For example, the “quick fix” from Hogan’s book which has my game buzzing for the 1st time in ages is getting my right foot close to perpendicular to the target line. What a revelation this little gem seems to be as it has cut down the sways.

Marion,

Over-acceleration is a huge issue for amateurs and pro’s alike…....in fact I’d be so bold as to say it’s the current world’s #1 players’ biggest problem, primarily with his driver. ;)

Golf swings will always have some sort of “timing requirement”, it’s just part of the game and the mechanics of the swing. Over-acceleration makes the timing more difficult and leads to lag loss.

I don’t know of many drills that fix this issue. I’m not a teacher but I am a decent player who battles with over-acceleration. A lot of it is rooted in a thirst for speed and distance, not necessarily what I would call a mechanical swing issue. Lots of great swings get degraded by “OA”, and I think each golfer needs to deal with it however he deals with it.

As Harvey Penick (one of the straightest shooting teachers of all time) might say to someone who has a problem with over-accelerating…..... “stop doing it”!!

Robbo

Cobra, have you read any of the Golf School articles here?
They’re organized from oldest to newest, so start at the bottom and read a few.

The 4th one up from the bottom may be useful, called “Keep That Left Arm Straight”. It’s a different method than you’re using.

Also look into the grip articles on page 1, near the top of the list.
And the interview with Lynn Blake, “Sick of Hacking?” on Page 2.
And the two articles on Lag there also.

cheers guys, thanks for the advice.

over acceleration we are speaking of is swinging too fast from the top- to the point where you can’t keep the acceleration going all the way to the ball at impact because you run out of puff and the body won’t keep up and the arms/hands take over
The body more or less controls the club- not so much the arms/hands- they just bring the club along for the ride
To keep it under control feel a nice rhythm from the top- kind of like thinking of changing gears in a car
address- 1st gear/ top – 2nd gear/ downswing- changing to 3rd gear/ impact- foot to the floor
If you get the foot to the floor or into top gear too early the ball doesn’t like being hit by the club that way- and won’t often do what you are trying to tell it to do

over acceleration we are speaking of is swinging too fast from the top- to the point where you can't keep the acceleration going all the way to the ball at impact because you run out of puff and the body won't keep up and the arms/hands take over
The body more or less controls the club- not so much the arms/hands- they just bring the club along for the ride
To keep it under control feel a nice rhythm from the top- kind of like thinking of changing gears in a car
address- 1st gear/ top – 2nd gear/ downswing- changing to 3rd gear/ impact- foot to the floor
If you get the foot to the floor or into top gear too early the ball doesn't like being hit by the club that way- and won't often do what you are trying to tell it to do

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Something like Geoff Ogilvy’s swing SMTM
http://forums.iseekgolf.com...

No one knows Marion, Shome has asked to remain anonymous for the time being.

Why do people over accelerate? Because they can!

Two problems..

1. The human condition.

2. Equipment

Let me explain…

first, it is easier to generate velocity from the top of the backswing down to impact… than it is to generate velocity from impact to your finish. Gravity itself become a culprit. If you were to chop a piece of wood with an axe, it would be much easier to place the piece of wood on the ground, lift the axe up over your right shoulder, then slam down on it from there.

On the other hand.. if you were to put the piece of wood about shoulder height.. hanging from a tree or whatever, and attempt to strike the wood starting with the axe on the ground, fighting gravity on the way up toward the wood, you won’t have as much success.

This is exactly the problem with golf.. our human condition. It’s just the way it is.

The golf swing does three things in relation to gravity.. it goes up (backswing) it goes down (downswing) it goes up (finish)

We fight gravity on the backswing, we use it on the downswing to aid us.. then we fight it again into finish.

When I say we use it on the downswing I mean just that…

WE USE IT NOT ABUSE IT!!! Hogan called this “The free ride down”

The feeling we all want to learn is the feeling that the golf club is moving faster post impact, faster after it hits the golf ball. Hogan speaks loud and clear in his “Five Lessons”.

The big temptation is the allow intellect to take over.. and let the devil whisper into your ear saying:

“Hey Joe.. pssst… the ball is already gone.. don’t worry about the swing post impact.. it doesn’t matter! you don’t need to accelerate anymore.. you’ve done your good deed by just hitting the ball as hard as you can.. and if you have been a good boy this year I have an even bigger and lighter club for you if you can just pay me a couple more dollars…”

Which now leads us to problem #2

Lightweight clubs..

It is simply easier to accelerate something quickly if it is lightweight.

The proper feeling of acceleration is SLOW AND HEAVY.
Slow and heavy is much easier to feel if the CLUB FEELS HEAVY.
It’s also easier for the club to feel heavy if the CLUB IS ACTUALLY HEAVY!

The equipment manufactures have simply played into the velocity junkie paradigm, trying to offset the effects of lighter clubs and shafts encouraging more “over acceleration” with bigger and bigger clubheads.

“Psssst, if you can just reach into your wallet one last time… I’ll give you the secret…... pssssst… and by the way.. my name is …......”

Oh, by the way..

Showme is the most accomplished player on this site..

Only a fool would not listen to him carefully!
Great players do and know great things!

Lag, once again a great post, this issue has been a big one for me and it’s slowly fading with my PST work with Bio and all the stuff I’m reading here!

Over swing (too far back) and over acceleration were rife in my game. It was interesting that on my big hard full slash I wouldn’t finish properly and still be facing out to the right as I stopped accelerating before the ball!! Now when I accelerate through the ball I’m at a full finish in the blink of an eye. Of course I’m not there ALL the time but it’s coming.

Probably a stupid question Lag but why don’t we just swing shorter? If we can get tonnes of accelaration (and ultimately speed) very quickly in the swing why do we bother going so far along the arc in the backswing?

Because so many equate long swings with speed. Many go beyond “Top” where everything is perfectly loaded and continue on to “End of the backswing”, where they manage to lose too many well thought out alignments which they then attempt to re-establish in the blink of the downswing – result is a messed up shot.

Too short a swing makes a downswing rhythm impossible with any meaningful effortless power too.

Knowing when you have enough backswing and that Top is where your coach an you have to know that more is redundant motion.

You coach also has to teach you how to control the shorter swings and their power requirement and alignments to maintain good sequencing to avoid Quitting, Steering, Bobbing and Swaying – all of which are poor attempts to ‘help the club’.

I have been slowly putting out an in depth book review of George Knudson’s “The Natural Golf Swing” and how it relates to what we are doing..

Here are some quotes from George I was going over today… and have been going over with my students..

“Centrifugal force will carry the club a good distance as far as it needs to go. You don’t have to worry about reaching parallel. The loading motion is generally circular in shape. We simply rotate around our trunk”

“I want to stress the importance of evaluating your finishing form. Many Golfers pay some attention to their starting form but few have a good look at the finishing form. They think that because the ball has been struck, the swing is over.”

“It’s not what you do that counts, it’s what you attempt to do that counts.”

Like George, I am also a big believer in proper intentions, and that the golf swing is nowhere near over at impact. George talks about the purpose of the backswing as loading, and never once mentions the path on how to get there because he was experienced enough to know it is not nearly as important as most would seem to believe.

He does however, promote a huge pivot rotation with the torso, with minimum arm travel.

A Fantastic Golf Swing…
There is not one thing I would change in George’s super pure action…

I’m confused, he says a huge pivot rotation with the torso, with minimum arm travel , in that sequence his hips don’t move much at all from the first shot to impact? I guess his shoulders have? Is pivot rotation then the separation between hips and shoulders? Is arm travel in relation to how far back they are taken? Here taken back to just past parallel?

Pivot is not just the body.

That sequence shows how the arms are the power package being transported upon ‘a’ pivot motion in an effective manner.

Lag ’ÄúCentrifugal force will carry the club a good distance as far as it needs to go. You don't have to worry about reaching parallel. The loading motion is generally circular in shape. We simply rotate around our trunk”

Bio has made exactly the same point to me as being critical not just to good ballstriking but also to good back health.

Lag He does however, promote a huge pivot rotation with the torso, with minimum arm travel.

I feel that this is becoming more true for me as I continue to do the PSTs. My shoulders continue to turn quite a way but my arms are not going back nearly as far as they used to. I think they are much more connected to the torso andstay in front of the chest. Not that I am consciously trying to do any of these things but that is where the PST is leading me personally.

stinkler – I'm confused, he says a huge pivot rotation with the torso, with minimum arm travel , in that sequence his hips don't move much at all from the first shot to impact? I guess his shoulders have? Is pivot rotation then the separation between hips and shoulders? Is arm travel in relation to how far back they are taken? Here taken back to just past parallel?

I’d also add that his shoulders do not turn anywhere near 90 degrees. But there is still a very substantial turn happening here from beginning to end, so maybe that is what is being referred to. I think we have become used to the “hips 45 shoulders 90” mantra and so judge the pivot against those criteria. I think the concept of limiting arm travel is really good – stops the power package becoming disconnected from the power source – the lower body and torso.

Guru, by body do you mean torso? Just for clarification I would have thought body would include arms legs etc? Not being picky just I get confused by what people mean by pivot? What would be a huge pivot rotation as apposed to a medium one? In these shots his rotation doesn’t look huge to me, quite the opposite, it looks controlled and like there is minimum movement of parts (yet full of power)?

Did some thinking and a pivot is generally a central point on which a mechanism turns right? In the golf swing I guess it would be our spine? So basic motion is the small pivot, to top a medium pivot, and to parallel big? A huge pivot would be like Long John or that young LD guy who’s name escapes me, ie past parallel? George does not look like a huge pivot then, but does look like a powerful controllable/repeatable one!!
If the arms are the power package being transported upon ‘a' pivot motion in an effective manner are they inert in the sense they react to the movement of the pivot? If so, then what is a hands controlled pivot, how do your hands control your pivot? Or is this getting back to the perceived difference between hitting and swinging?

Hardly inert as arms will not raise or lower themselves.

If I asked you to put your hands behind your head 2 feet away from your ear, you can do so with ease. Your body will have turned to allow the hands to reach their target point. That is hand controlled pivot.

If you keep your elbow connected to your right hip and turn your body the hands move with the hip motion. Now the hip motion is controlling the hands. That is pivot controlled hands.

Zone One: Body (includes shoulders, hips knees and feet)
Zone Two: Arms
Zone 3: Hands

Borrow the book from somewhere and study it.

So is Hogan pivot controlled hands? He does those drills where the hips lead and his elbow stays tucked in?

I’m scared to get the book yet. If things are explained like you just did it seems simple enough, doubt the book is in such terms? I will get there, but not ready yet.

I’d still like to know what Knudson would mean by huge pivot too?

I’ll fish around for some other pics of Knudson, who did make a great turn..

This sequence is of him hitting a mid iron shot, maybe a 7 iron, and I’m not sure the first frame is him at the top of his swing..

We have to make sure we know what we are looking at…

What I really like about this sequence is the layoff of the shaft to set up a deep 4:30 line at P3, then his great torso rotation post impact, cutting the hands left quite deliberately by keeping is upper arms pinned upon his chest. He keeps his left shoulder rotating faster than his hands all the way to finish, never losing the fight to the flip. His feet are very rooted into the ground giving the torso a great bracing to resist against post impact. Really wonderful stuff.

Yep, great swing indeed! He looks so bloody strong when he swings, like you couldn’t knock him over.

Would you say this is hands controlled or pivot controlled?

The 4.30 P3 thing I’m starting to grasp, I certainly see the value in it!

The great thing here is the incredible distance that George’s torso has rotated compared the the little amount of hand travel. The hips haven’t moved a lot, which shows us that the torso is turning on top of the hips,
providing a solid stable base to pressure off.

You’ll be hard pressed to find a ball striker with such world class rotation happening right where it counts… through the impact arena.

There is no arm slapping going on here.. this is a pivot driven golf swing.

I don’t want to speak for Bio, but I am sure he loves this too.

In photo #1 of the sequence Knudsen looks to be really squatting with a wide stance which must limit any lateral movement and keep the whole package very tight. I can’t imagine that the top of his swing is much higher than that photo unless the squat is the “2nd plane” on the downswing.

For me, Photo #4 is the one that sorts the pros from the weekend warriors – that club head has to travel a long way in the blink of an eye! The holy grail for me.

The Ogilvy shot showing the club shaft bending in all sorts of directions is amazing. How do you control that (and that’s the point isn’t it Lag?)?

http://www.aroundhawaii.com...

Here is a link to the amazing golf swing of LD Champion Jamie Sadlowski. What is amazing to me is the very complex pivot motion he makes. In the backswing he pivots onto the right leg; then at transition he squats on the left leg then rocks back to the right leg and then the final stage of the rocket.
I heard one commentator mention that reverse motion of the hips by Mcclroy but I could not pick it up in his swing as clearly.

Lag, is a pivot driven golf swing similar to pivot controlled hands? I have my doubts that there is that much difference in the ‘hands’ control really. It seems to me the mind is the muscle that really controls the swing in the long run and it will use what it thinks it needs to do the job. I’m thinking no matter how strong and effective your pivot is, the mind will always use the hands as sensors for the motion (pressure points?) as they have the most, well, sensitivity? A runner may have fast strong legs but it’s the feet that will shape it all and put it in the right direction. I’m finding that as my pivot gets stronger my mind uses the hands as guides even more? Like putting a bigger engine in your car needs better handling/control? I really am a beginner so well I’m out of my depth, but hey, I’m here to learn so just postulating!

BTW, I’m sure Bio would love George’s swing too!

Macs – check out McIlroy’s driver swing in particular. At 19-20 seconds in this swing: http://www.youtube.com/watc... it’s pretty clear the hip stops, pops back a little and then goes again.

Search of this site will also bring up some stuff.

On Ogily, maybe someone can answer me this…..

We all know the clubface goes from very open to near squad in the latter part of the pro swing.

That means the clubface is turning rapidly.

That means the ‘lag’ (clubhead trailing hands) generated in the downswing is quickly turned into the shaft action we see at the bottom of Geoff Ogilvy’s (and Tiger’s) swings…..does this make sense!?

In work, so no time to explain any better!

Stinkler,

There seems to be a lot of debate whether the hands control the pivot or the pivot controls the hands..

I don’t like either of those thoughts really…

My opinion is that the brain controls them both, and the pivot and hands work in unison as a tight team.

Thanks Lag, been nagging me that, for what it’s worth, I like your opinion!
This may be a stray or weird thought, but I like Hogans secret in the dirt vibe and to me that reeks of feet, apart from hands the other part of our being that has many intricate bones, nerves and muscles. Is it silly of me to think feet for pivot and hands for club? Do the feet have pressure points too?

Stinkler,

Of course the feet have pressure points, so do two hundred and sixty bones connections have sensors not to mention six hundred and fifty muscles all working in a tenth of a second at a rate of six billion neuromuscular calculations per second.

Sure Lag does not like these ideas – he is past them in his development BUT you are not.

Educated hands controlling pivot are as important as a motorists eyes are to driving on the road. If he closes his eyes he will soon crash the car. If a golfer looses the sense of clubhead inertia, direction and swivel he will hit the ball short and in the wrong direction. That is because their default position is swing left with a reverse hinge, like a jet ski, you fall of and it circles. You can’t win a race going round in circles.

If you can play – no sweat – if you can’t look to your sensors (hands). The pivot drives the accumulators (Gear Box), but where and when. If your hands are alive they will tell you – if not – you are playing blind.

The hands are the eyes of your golf swing. The smarter they are the better you play.

Golfers can’t play because their hands are numb to the action. No feed back, no direction.

Good players already have that and have forgotten what they learned. They are concerned with their next challenge. I don’t know why they think it should be yours.

With you Dart, you are very correct, thanks for the wise words. I wasn’t playing down the roll of the hands, quite the opposite, I strongly believe as you say, they are the eyes of the golf swing. My hands are indeed uneducated, and that I’m working on. I actually don’t see how you would let the pivot ever control the hands, I do see that those who may FEEL differently probably have educated their hands to a point that they have forgotten how they got there.
I find the idea of learning fascinating in this way, that you practice something so much that it becomes ingrained to a point that it is no longer thought of at all. In that sense teaching becomes very interesting as the teacher may ‘forget’ the journey that they’ve taken and not relate it to the student. Sometimes it’s easy to forget how hard it was to do something in the beginning, that is now so simple.
I’m just trying to sort this stuff out in my head.
Keep setting me straight and I’ll keep learning, cheers.

Stinkler you have to make up your mind one way or the other.

Do I really? What’s my time limit? What’s my choice there Macs, can you define the list? Can’t I just discuss it and learn from those who have made up their mind and formulate an opinion myself later when I know more about it all and possibly can play better? Even play devils advocate for the sake of finding out information? I’m not here to say one way or the other, I’m here to learn.

At this point I would say why can’t you have educated hands that don’t control the pivot or are controlled by the pivot? There is the pivot, there are the hands, separate but performed together. The mind controls both in the end, but having educated hands (which really means the mind as there is no such thing as muscle memory, the hands don’t act by themselves, then they would be uneducated like mine are at the moment) gives the mind feedback to perform the task, hitting the ball. I don’t really see why even I as a hacker can’t think the brain controls them both, and the pivot and hands work in unison as a tight team. as long as I educate both my hands and my pivot?

Hey Stinkler
did not mean any offence. Just that you agreed with both Lag and Dart in one go. I have finally come to the conclusion that the pivot has to move in the right direction for an efficient golf swing (I use to curse people proposing pivot that how the hell can you use your legs for a precise movment like hitting a golf ball). The arms can hit the golf ball in many possible ways but we want them to hit from a position of maximum mechanical advantage. I found this convincingly on short chips. When I started golfing 3 years ago I naturally chipped (and even putted) with my legs; sort of keeping the arms flush with the thighs and basically rocking my thighs. And I was good at chipping. Then I went to all the nutty gritty of basic motion and for the life of me could not force a FLW despite all kinds of grips and so.
Now recently I have gone back to chipping with my pivot and the arms/hands seem to do the work just fine; it works ever single time. I do it a little differently now (never read about it just my own concoction so use at your risk). I set my knees into a post impact position i.e right knee flexed left knee straight and keep my hands just behind the left knee. All I do for the stroke is I bend my left knee and straighten it and the ball likes it.

Well I can hardly disagree with players/coaches of that stature at my level! : )

I don’t know that they were saying different things though. Lag is just saying the pivot and hands can work together under the minds control. Dart is saying Lag is very advanced so can think like that, but I need to educate my hands to the point they ‘know’ what they’re doing and they guide the pivot.
For now I’ll just take it that having very educated hands is seen here as a hands controlled pivot, but if you have very educated hands you can then call it what you like.

Problem is the hands want to do it all by themselves rather than involve the pivot.

Ha, on it goes,,,,,,

Problem is the hands want to do it all by themselves rather than involve the pivot.

New Goal (after a 78)to do the same with persimmons.
’ÄúGolf is happiness. Its intoxication without the hangover.Its stimulation without the pill. Its price is high; yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boy's pastime, yet it builds men……”

Macs,

If the hands are doing it they are still dopey. Generals don’t do physical work, soldiers do.

Bad Generals loose battles.

If you think your scores don’t reflect your golfing knowledge, the hands are not trained. What does that mean?

Show me your list of things the hands can tell the body.

My number one is how the energy is developed stored delivered and released. Sure, I can do that with a rough idea of what is going on, but if I am aware of fine differences from swing to swing I can progress at a faster rate and head off any looming tragedies.

Sure, you can extract this vital feed back non consciously but getting lost and back tracking is inevitable.

Help yourself out and rate every swing out of ten for smoothness for a whole round (a challenge in itself), you will be surprised how you improve. Can this be don’t well without increasing the sensation in the hands? They will tell you where the club is and when and what shape the shaft and face are in.

To be blank to these things is the long way to a dwindling spiral.
Educated hands can take you the other way and quickly.

Once you have made it you can do what you like any way you like.

Learning golf has a certain pattern of progressive skills – leave one out at your peril. Even doubt as to plan and programmes is corrosive.

Even doubt as to plan and programs is corrosive.

Nice line Dart, very nice indeed. I find myself by nature somewhat skeptical and wary or at least questioning, and this sometime leads to a confusion or lack of commitment to ideas unless I’m convinced totally as to their validity. Trying something to ‘see how it goes’ does not give it the best results because people give up too quickly if results aren’t immediate. I like your take that you look at the mechanics and know what works then learn to do them.

The biggest lesson I ever learned was, not, whether it works or not, but, if it makes mechanical sense, do it ‘till it does work. The day of smoke and mirrors is gone. Gimmicks are gone. Fundamentals have nothing to do with trial and error

It’s starting to formulate in my head what path I need, my journey started on an aimless charge but is finding direction now.

Some interesting comments from Tom Watson (in Golf Digest):

MY SWING might look the same as it always has, but it really isn’t. I don’t have the extension I once had. The width of my arc is not what it used to be. My left arm bends a little bit now. I learned how to swing the golf club for real in 1994. I had some success before then, but in 1994, that’s when I found the key. Like Sam Snead said, we all have our keys. If one key stops working, you go to the next key. I found the key at 3:15 during practice on a Tuesday afternoon at the Heritage Classic, 1994, Hilton Head, South Carolina. That’s when I found the secret. My attack into the ball. I didn’t win that week, but I knew I had found it. I was tired of hitting the ball with toe-deep divots out to the right. I decided to swing like Corey Pavin’s practice swing. Swing to the left through impact.

AS SOON AS I DID THAT, I hit the ball perfect. Divots were square, and I had a different feeling with my right shoulder. It wasn’t as low coming into the ball. It all had to do with shoulder plane, keeping it the same on the downswing as it was on the backswing. I had always practiced my backswing. Then, out of frustration, I found something that worked.

Think it fits in here because he talks about swinging to the left through impact, and the shoulder plane. And Corey Pavin.

That’s interesting Beeze.

Waston has always been a bit of an erratic ball striker. A pure CF swinger in his early days.. seems he found that a pivot driven hit would offer a more consistent strike upon the ball. The more you start working the club left after impact, the more you are engaging war on the outward throw of CF. By joining the fight, you start putting a lot more pressure in your hands… and the tendency from there is to move toward an angled hinge, which starts to eliminate a lot of the timing involved to hit a golf ball straight.

I know a lot of TGM instructors, not all, but many, discourage this move, but not me..

You have to get stronger in the forearms, and beef up the post impact pivot thrust… but training the muscles to DO something is easier than teaching “trust”.

If you can deliver the goods to P3, and just “let her fly” with dead hands and arms blasting off the body with the wrists quickly snapping over into a full horizontal roll post impact, by all means. If you love to grind balls and wake up feeling the same every morning, loose, limber, and flexible.. swinging is you thing.

No doubt it can be done, and many majors have been won with this type of action.

But by watching students and players of all levels over the years, I don’t think everyone can get it. It certainly takes more concentration.

Watson is definitely turning much more level and much flatter than he was years ago… and based upon his British Open ball striking recently, it makes a good argument for a more pivot driven swing than his super upright move he used for so many years… even as an aging golfer, it still holds merit. Hogan was a fine striker well into his golden years to driving the swing with a flat rotary motion.

Dart says: Golfers can't play because their hands are numb to the action. No feed back, no direction.

If this isn’t the argument for using proper equipment I don’t know what is.

If you can’t feel exactly where on the clubface you are hitting the ball, it makes getting better very difficult.

Hands don’t learn, the brain doesn’t learn, you don’t learn.

I do believe the swing can be taught with both the hands and body at the same time. If you work on a small section of swing’s dynamic movement pattern, really isolate things into a microcosm, and focus on the pressures that need to be in place in both the hands and the feet, you have a a pretty good chance of getting the body trained correctly.

Hands pressuring the club, feet pressuring the ground, in motion at full speed just like the real golf swing, things can be cross trained in unison. The link between the hands and the feet is the body pivot. Twisting the towel at both ends can squeeze out the proper cohesive body tensions.

Lags “just let here fly” para a little way up is why pure CF swinging is so hard to groove – as its pivot centred and controlled.

Way back in this thread I talked about Manipulated Hands Swinging. That is what 90% of what the best golfers use. It is not pivot controlled hands and hope and pray.

They have their hands in control of where they wish the pivot to be directed thrust wise. Their hands control the clubhead in its travel and also control the clubface. It’s what Dart and I teach in every other part of this forum.

Hands, arms, torso, hips, knees and feet all working together but know that the bosses (hands) are put in motion to have:

On Plane motion
FLW
Lag

Steady Head
Balance and all with
Rhythm

All great stuff Lag, thanks. That has helped me place things in my mind immensely. I think I’m on the right track, just need to keep doing my homework and I’ll see improvements. Like Dart says, having confidence in your direction or program is very important for improvement to occur, doubt is a killer.

I think I’ve asked this before but do your divots go left if you’re working the club left after impact like that?

Lags ’Äújust let here fly” para a little way up is why pure CF swinging is so hard to groove – as its pivot centred and controlled.

Way back in this thread I talked about Manipulated Hands Swinging. That is what 90% of what the best golfers use. It is not pivot controlled hands and hope and pray.

They have their hands in control of where they wish the pivot to be directed thrust wise. Their hands control the clubhead in its travel and also control the clubface. It's what Dart and I teach in every other part of this forum.

Hands, arms, torso, hips, knees and feet all working together but know that the bosses (hands) are put in motion to have:

On Plane motion
FLW
Lag

Steady Head
Balance and all with
Rhythm

And Rhythm, in TGM, is hinge action, along with the #3 accumulator, roll or transfer power.
Hinge action, from impact to follow-through, both arms straight, is keeping the flat left wrist perpendicular to the horizontal, vertical or the inclined plane. There is no actual wrist movement involved. Hinge action is not a swivel.

Manipulated Hands swingers can easily use any of the three hinge actions, particularly for trajectory control, closing the clubface down for angle hinge action straightaway flight.

2-G “Some players intentionally execute impact as exclusively a swivel, making clubface alignments extremely fleeting and erratic.”

When the clubhead gets above the hands into Finish, both hitters and swingers execute a counter-clockwise Finish swivel of the left forearm to maintain the flat left wrist. Lynn Blake’s “bulletproof vest for the links.” Dart’s “Preferred Method” video or his “Intro to TGM” with Peter Croker.

My Yellow book is the notorious 5th edition..

Is the protocol for manipulated hand swingers discussed more in later versions?

I don’t recall Homer going into much depth on that topic in my book.

any chapter references would be appreciated..

thanks..

My Yellow book is the notorious 5th edition..

Is the protocol for manipulated hand swingers discussed more in later versions?

I don't recall Homer going into much depth on that topic in my book.

any chapter references would be appreciated..

thanks..

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Any book insists that we all have choices.

It is up to each golfer to do a little study with the help of an instructor but the pupil must absorb and apply.

Responsibility rests on the pupil. Every person on earth has a point of view. Take yours and let others find theirs as fast as possible.

To force a position on someone is to waste their time.

Present, let them look. Applaud their conclusion. They will learn their next lesson when they are ready.

Homer was not fussed what you did, only that you knew what you were doing. Why? So you could do it again and again.

If you don’t know what you did, how can you expect to do it again?

The book is there to stop tyranny.

Guru gave a pretty good description of “manipulated hands” swinging. The hands are in control to direct the thrust, control the clubhead, clubshaft and clubface.
Hitters by definition are manipulated hands.
“The geometry is the same for both (for ‘uncompensated strokes’), and for all clubs and patterns.” (Preface)

Those studying the book for descriptions, considerations for hinge action/rhythm, regardless of type of lag loading, look into:

2-D-0 Directional Factors
2-G Hinge Motion (Rhythm)
1-L The Machine Concept
4-D-0 Release Motions
6-B-3-0 The Third Power Accumulator (hand motion)
7-10 Hinge Actions
10-10 Hinge Action component variations C, D and E
(In Dual Horizontal and Dual Vertical, note that the secondary hinge is a single pin, so the blade can be adjusted to the Inclined plane. The other holes are empty. The blade motions with respect to their namesake planes are unchanged, like opening/closing a door.
The modifier “Dual” is usually implied/omitted as “Only” variations, A and B, are of limited to no use.
In Angled it is fixed on the Inclined plane. All three holes are pinned. It is constantly held vertical to the Inclined plane, creating a “laying back” motion of the clubface. But as the plane gets flatter it exhibits more horizontal hinge action and as the plane steepens it exhibits more vertical hinge action. 2-D-0)

The Basic Stroke Patterns in 12-1-0, 12-2-0 are thought to be the least compensated combination of component variations, and/or most useful. Non-beginners can spell out their own procedures.
“It need not be precise, but the geometry (per 1-L) must be.”

“Three all-encompassing primary concepts, the hinge action of an angular motion operating on an inclined plane, on which all details can be easily attached.” 1-L

Look at that man. Haven’t you got to just love him. What an asset to the game.

Look at that man. Haven't you got to just love him. What an asset to the game.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill's, St. Michael's or Milperra Driving Range

What an asset to LIFE!

Kevin

Aw, shucks.

That’s some serious thought gone into that post. Keep the shucks coming.

It’s an interesting topic.
Certainly the hands can hit by themselves
Or the hands can be limp and passive

I can take the club back to P1 and drop it passively on the ball, just a gravity drop

or, I can fire the hands right away, there is a difference here
one is passive and one is active

Actively driving the right arm also can be done with either of those above protocols

However, actively firing the right arm has a big tendency to disengage the pivot.

This is a hackers move

Can you strike a ball doing this? yes
Is this a good way to do it? no
Not for anything resembling a normal full shot, not a specialty shot around the greens.

I can certainly manipulate the hands as a swinger on the downswing, open or shut the face, and just drag them down with the pivot, dead and heavy…. not hard to do

I can do this without firing them

manipulate, yes

firing them, no

Loren, does Homer anywhere in a later version of the book mention or go into any kind of detail regarding a protocol for manipulated hand swingers?

It’s nowhere in my 5th edition that I know of…

It would be interesting to know Homer’s direct take on it

Actively firing the right arm while maintaining the plane is key. Also if #4 PP is kept in tack as the Master Accumulator as well then you cannot have a right arm firing malfunction and have it fly off the chest in the wrong direction.

Hit Lynn’s site for a major dissertation on MHS. Loren has given you Homers pretty darn closely though. He did have a lot of audio on the subject with his Master Classes which was way before Ed 5.

MHS is about using aiming points other than where CF takes the club by itself – or aiming the CF to particular areas.
This makes the hands ‘not dead’ but ‘in control’. Aiming points are in Ed 5 but I do not have a copy of that to aim you to. Auto and non auto release too comes into play. They are more than likely in Ed 5.

Homer never wanted dead and heavy hands. He wanted them directed. Dead hands go with Pivot controlled hands and he was dead against that as a suggested means to play this game – as are you:)

Lag,

With all due respect to your enthusiasm.

It is not an interesting topic, it is a dead topic from my point of view.

There is a simple hitting procedure, not a protocol and there is a simple swinging procedure not a protocol, in my book. In my book there are myriads of ways to proceed in my own time and in my own way. We are free to learn with the information we understand.

Then there are six billion alternative procedures and you can decree you own protocols ‘till the cows come home. But I and some others on this site are sick to death of you stuffing you narrow protocols down our throats. Do what you like on yours. We are happy with Homer here – thanks.

What you don’t get is that there are many people who are entering golf at low levels and a few who are advanced. You can scoop them all up with simple principles done to higher and higher degrees of precision.

Look at the whole picture of golf instruction not just your take – if you want to help.

Trying to approach the top level of performance when we should be aiming for better is a cruel task to force on anyone.

That’s a bit harsh Dart…..
Most people need to know something because they DON’T have ONE clue what their hands or arms or fingers or toes are meant to do when they swing- they can’t hit the ball 100 yards and straight so how are they going to make up their OWN mind about what protocol will work best? People need guidance- not to just be told….here you go, read Chapter 8 , do what feels good to you, and you’ll be fine

TGM sounds great in many areas and most of it is factual as far as hitting a ball…...BUT unless you have played golf at a high level then words on a page aren’t much help. Golf is about feel and understanding and being able to feel in the body what words on a page mean. Some people have feel and understand concepts, 98% of people wouldn’t have a clue if you were half way up them-

Not my forum or topic- but TGM is not the bible- Homer WAS NOT a golfer- it’s a book of concept and of idea from 20 years of brain strain- not from 20 years of toil and work on the world circuit…that in itself is a HUGE difference.

there are grip pressures, ground pressure, mental pressures…that never rated hardly if any mention in the book and all are just as important in a golf swing and shouldn’t be overlooked…

I am glad the yellow book shows options instead of only one set rule- but you do have to be a rocket scientist to comprehend most of it- and then how on earth can you attempt to hit a ball when there are 4000 things going around in your head about position A,B and C. People can’t be given the choice- they need a good coach to explain the differences and the feels and work around what they are already doing Ok and finetuning other stuff.

It is Lag’s page on the forum- so he should be allowed to write what he wants, when he wants.
Lag is the smartest man I have ever met with regards to the golf swing- I’ll take his word and leave it at that

Not offending you Dart..but you may be a bit off base to go spearing into Lag for his beliefs because they don’t abide to a yellow book that a hacker who played golf about 5 times in his life wrote

Don’t want to see what happened to Sevam happen to Lag on this site

I don’t think you blokes have much to gain by slugging it out publicly, but my goodness its interesting…

I could feel the frustration building for a while. Reason. Talking about different things. The hitting (swinging or whatever anyone likes to call it) procedure Lag is teaching is absolutely different than what LBG;Guru; Loren and Dart are talking about. We need to agree with that first. If in doubt compare Lag’s swing with the LBG poster boy Ted Fort’s swing/hit. I like Lag’s and you like Ted’s

---

that is all.

I’ve been studying TGM for over 6 years now and I can actually maneuver through the book reasonably well. I’ve developed a real appreciation for how and why it’s written in the form it is. Despite all the complaints about how it’s structured I don’t know that there is a better way.

But….. I also have a much greater appreciation for why Homer wished that an AI could accompany each book. As shome alludes to…. way too many golfers simply are not going to figure it out on their own. They have no real idea of what their current pattern is, much less how to go about optimizing it.

For all the grief you see some of the “method teachers” get on the various forums, they are at least proposing a pattern they believe works best and they give the student direction on how to achieve it. Whether or not the student can “get it” will always be an issue, but I’m beginning to believe the alternative (i.e. the student figures out his own best pattern and how to work on it) may be worse.

Lag has a pattern (or protocol, whatever you want to call it) that he believes is best, is passionate about, and he’s developed a system that gives his on-line students a wonderful chance to “get it”. It isn’t for everyone, but it does work.

Robbo

Homer noted in 1-H ’ÄúThe extreme brevity herein is dictated by the advantages of holding such voluminous information to a one volume Handbook. Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available but separately. And probably endlessly.”

This extraordinary thread is addressing that requirement. It would be regrettable if it was debased by excessive personality issues.

Lag, for those of us who are interested, please continue.

Lag,

We are happy with Homer here – thanks.

.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill's, St. Michael's or Milperra Driving Range

I surely am not!

I read Lag’s thread with much interest and for goodness sake this is a forum open to all ideas and opinions, not a site sponsored by TGM, Homer’s descendants or who else afiiliated with TGM. Or am I wrong? Please tell me if this is the case ADMIN.

While we’re there, it’s interesting that some here consider Homer’s book the Golfing Bible and are all so quick to point to any winner on the circuit that has a coach teaching this stuff while there’s about 99% that don’t and win nonetheless.

I am much more interested in Lag’s opinions and thread than in all of TGM waffle and am sure I’m not the only one.

To you Dart, very respectfully, I say what I said to other people here regarding other topics, if you can’t stand Lag’s posts don’t read this thread.

And lets not forget that healthy debate is born out of knowledge, passion, belief, and disagreement, all of which are present in bucket loads around here. Long may it continue, I say. Even the fiercest rivals and competitors keep teeing it up against eachother week in and week out- the results of which are often glorious spectacles of sport. Likewise, we’re all benefactors of frequent rivalry and disagreement around here. Here’s hoping that the likes of Dart and Lag keep teeing their ideas up against eachother for the long haul.
Cheers, Lads, keep up the good work!

Lag,

We are happy with Homer here – thanks.

.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill's, St. Michael's or Milperra Driving Range

I surely am not!

I read Lag's thread with much interest and for goodness sake this is a forum open to all ideas and opinions, not a site sponsored by TGM, Homer's descendants or who else afiiliated with TGM. Or am I wrong? Please tell me if this is the case ADMIN.

While we're there, it's interesting that some here consider Homer's book the Golfing Bible and are all so quick to point to any winner on the circuit that has a coach teaching this stuff while there's about 99% that don't and win nonetheless.

I am much more interested in Lag's opinions and thread than in all of TGM waffle and am sure I'm not the only one.

To you Dart, very respectfully, I say what I said to other people here regarding other topics, if you can't stand Lag's posts don't read this thread.

Definitely not bragging about having won the Vision 100 page competition…

Well said Pip.

HItter

Swinger

Hello Old Friends,

Sorry it has been so long since I posted, Im sure no one missed me..Lol

I was doing a post on another forum about some of this very same talk on this thread. I started looking for post by Lagpressure becuase I knew we had some of the same ideas about Hogan and it lead me back to iseekGolf… See this is where the learning is…

Anyway, this is some of what I have posted and would love some feed back to what I am saying. Correct or Incorrect, I’m open mined to others ideas.

I was chatting with a member through PM on GolfWrx tonight about a certain player who i believe is a Hitter, and he believes is a Swinger. It got me to thinking about what I believe to be a Hitter

I hope this thread does not turn to the same old crap and gets off topic with arguments and mud slinging. All I am asking of anyone is to post your opinion on what players you consider to be hitters on the DS till @ Compression. Throw up a photo, explain why this person is or is not a Hitter, this could be very educational to all of us because I personally think some are confused between the two.

What I believe to be a Hitter..

Almost everybody on the planet is a swinger after the ball leaves the club. You can’t be a hitter and use the left hand, you can Flail at it with you left hand, bow you left wrist, flip with the left, pull with the left, but you can’t hit with the left. A Hitter pushes the palm down and extends the right arm, the right hand pushes controling the arc on the DS before impact and rotation with the pivot to control the path/release @ low point on the through swing after impact.

Talking about Feddie Couples – “Yes! One thing you will notice is @ Compression his right elbow is still bent and his shoulders are open. Swinger could throw the club forward at impact and Hitter can’t….Pure Swinger”

Ben Hogan who I have always believed used his right hand to push the golf club was a Hitter 4 Barrel, or 2-M-3… in TGM terms, in Burley terms he was a Push/Rotator… This is why Sevam1 and me always got along about Hogan being a Switter, almost everybody on the planet is a swinger after the ball leaves the club. You can’t be a hitter and use the left hand, you can Flail at it with you left hand, bow you left wrist, flip with the left, pull with the left, but you can’t hit with the left a Hitter pushes the palm down and extends the right arm..

See that’s were I think that I differ from most, I KNOW Hogan was a hitter… He used the right hand to push controling the arc on the DS before impact and rotated with the body to control the path/release @ low point on the DS after impact.

TGM Definition of:

2-M-3 MUSCLES Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives the #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything bu motion during Delivery. The Pattern of the Stroke being used designates where Thrust is to originate and that is completely the player’s option. (See 10-4 and 10-19.) Pivot Thrust alone (2-K), forfeits Right Arm Thrust (6-B-1). Power Package Thrust alone (6-0) forfeits Momentum Transfer (2-K). Only with the driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for lack of a longer Club. In which case – to Pivot Thrust add a strong Pressure Point #1 thrust, per 10-19-C, or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn, per 2-M-4. (Study 4-D-0, 6-B-2-B and 10-4-D in this connection.

“This is why to me Hogan straiten the right arm later @ compression than early like other hitters”.

From: John “Lagpressure” Erickson

2-M-3 MUSCLES Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives the #4 Accumulator through Impact….

Homer talks about this as if it is some kind of an oddity, in his suggested stroke pattern later in the book, he
praises swingers for being pivot driven, and a passive or even zeroed out right arm..
We see this with players like VJ and Couples, who will often be seen with their right hands dangling off the club
through impact, hardly Hogan’s three right hands..!

Swingers blast their arms off their bodies, at impact, sending the clubshaft into a parallel plane “sea shell” like spiral,
or a more technical term would be an “equal-angular plane”

Hogan clearly drove the #4 pressure point through impact, you don’t see him flying the arms off the body like VJ…
Hogan was a muscular force, pivot driven hitter..

Most TGM guys who seem to be forever in love with swinging, love to pull Hogan into their corner and keep him as
their own, they call him a swinger because of his great pivot.. but when you cut it like Hogan and many other greats,
you must use a hitters angle hinge, no roll orbit pull… you are not releasing the throwing the club out to right field like
pure CF swingers do.

Getting back to Homer’s suggested patterns, he talks about hitters not being pivot driven, but right arm thrust driven.
We’ll we know that Hogan was both… but he didn’t thrust the right arm until after impact.. he drove it hard left and into P4 not into the ball or out to right field.. He hit it hard with both the body and the right hand and elbow.. a true 4 barrel hitter,

The other visual thing that throws off the TGM guys is that they see this softness or what appears to be a softness in the hands at transition, but in reality, this has a lot to do with his equipment..

Observation based instruction is very limited in some ways, and I can tell you as a fairly proficient ball striker myself,
this is a perfect example. I have experimented with all kinds of different weights in setting up my clubs, and heavy clubs
as Hogan used (VERY HEAVY) will produce this look at transition… exactly what we see in his golf swing.. I see it in mine when I play my set of 1959 Dynapowers, compared to a lighter set of 1980’s off the shelf Titleist blades, where the transition looks more rigid. Just an ounce or two can really make a difference.

If you want to run the experiment yourself, video your swing with a modern set and then video yourself with one of those silly weighted clubs, (which you should never train with)... and you’ll see this big soft compression of the shaft in towards your body at transition. It will be extreme.. but you’ll get the idea..

Can I then assume that “manipulated hand swinging” is a manipulation of the book by Lynn Blake? I assume he coined the phrase?

I don’t have a problem with that, I just wanted to know the origins of the term for not only my own knowledge but the knowledge of my students as well.

Sevam has sent over a few of his TGM followers to me for instruction because he felt I was better at bridging that gap than he would be. I get a lot of questions about Hoganomics and how it relates to TGM.

Good science is just that… it SHOULD always be questioning and trying to progress forward. Homer knew that or he wouldn’t have made the comment, “let tomorrow’s garbage be superior to today’s”

Is TGM 100% correct? Mac didn’t think so. Neither did Clampett.
These two were the first poster children of TGM. I’ve talked to both of them in depth about this stuff.

Lynn Blake felt it important to introduce MHS. I agree with Lynn 100% that the hands must be actively manipulating the club to be a top golfer. Of course this must be done in the right way.

In Homer’s preface, he is clear that the book is adhering to a “textbook style of writing and that the presentation is based upon technical writing, not hilarity, opinions, reminiscing and debating”

Homer also give the marvelous quote “complexity is far more simple and workable than mystery”. “Treating a complex subject as though it were simple multiplies it’s complexity because of the difficulty in systematizing missing and unknown factors or elements” and also adds, “The golf stroke is fantastically complex”

Is it possible that because Homer was not a top caliber player that he might not have “got” everything? I think it’s possible.

Therefore, if we can assume even for a second that there could be some omissions that should have been included, we would have missing and unknown factors.

Apparently Lynn Blake feels there have been omissions from his study of the book and years of teaching. Clampett and O’Grady seem to have come to a similar conclusion… with both having moved on to writing their own books or attempts at filling in the missing pieces.

Homer did authorize Ben Doyle as his first official authorized instructor…. was that a mistake? If Ben didn’t teach Homer’s work correctly, should Homer maybe have spent more time with Ben to make sure he was teaching the gospel properly? Should he have stripped Ben of his diploma at some point?

Homer quotes in 1L:

“In every athletic activity, success seems to be unquestionably proportional to the player’s sense of BALANCE AND FORCE”

He didn’t say geometry..

f=ma

force equals mass times acceleration

acceleration

I don’t think it is a stretch to interpret this to saying:

“a player’s sense of feeling the acceleration of a given mass”

Hogan talked a lot about force… Knudson talked a lot about balance.

If TGM is correct, then it must justify the golf swings 100% of all great strikers…. not just Brian Gay.

Homer states in 2-0 and in my opinion, his greatest chapter (2)

“The mechanics of golf is the production and manipulation of the line of compression. The secret of golf is sustaining the line of compression”

These are his words… right from the get go in his epic chapter #2.

I will not ignore these words in my teaching.

Homer’s quote in chapter 14

“The longer the experience of the player, the more information the computer will have to comparisons as situations arise”

In my own experience as a ten year understudy of two TGM Master and Doctoral instructors, and 7 years on tour including a couple of wins, 15 years to incubate it, and another couple to write a book and produce many instructional videos, I feel I am in as good a position as most to look at Homer’s work objectively, but never religiously as only science would want. With open eyes, and direct and personal knowledge of the applications presented in his work, I do think Homer would be interested in what I have to say if he were alive today. Of course I could be wrong and he might rather watch “I love Lucy” re runs.

John, me and you have talked before and I agree with alot of what you have to say. Reading your last I am assuming you read my post because you mention Sevam.. I am in no way saying you are not right or TGM, I am still reading TGM and have sevral people that have offered me good advice on the subject. So saying that I want to say again from my last post “Lagpressure and I both believe in alot of the same things about Hogan.

Now, the reason I posted that is because I wanted to get your opinion and others about what I say as to Hogan being a Hitter and my thoughts on what hitters are… I myself am a hitter.

What I belive to be hitting..”BELOW”

Almost everybody on the planet is a swinger after the ball leaves the club. You can't be a hitter and use the left hand, you can Flail at it with you left hand, bow you left wrist, flip with the left, pull with the left, but you can't hit with the left. A Hitter pushes the palm down and extends the right arm, the right hand pushes controling the arc on the DS before impact and rotation with the pivot to control the path/release @ low point on the through swing after impact.

IMO
Having spent some time studying Lag’s swing on his youtube site, here are my thoughts on his swing and why, possibly, he and Dart see things differently…
Lag has a rather oddly leg/pivot/ground force(particularly through his right foot) driven action. It’s the motion of a man that has learned, through his own experience, or through the observation of others, that hands(his) cannot be trusted. His bottom line thinking, again, imo, is driven by this assumption. Dart is a man who looks at the golf swing with a little more objectivity- maybe because he hasn’t played a lot of competitive golf or maybe not- I don’t know his history(maybe he’s just always been able to trust his hands regardless of circumstance) Looking at Lag hit his 2(?) iron off his deck, it’s clear that this is the swing of a man who wants to avoid any conscious hand manipulation- it’s a purely pivot driven journey through impact.
Dart talks about empirical evidence being the worst of the worst. Lag’s understanding is based in empirical evidence and theoretical study. Shome sticks up for Lag from the perspective of a player, and rightly so. But his experience is his own, and the truths and falsehoods that he has discovered are as a result of these particular personal experience, or observations. Dart’s, as he says, are based in theory and the pursuit of it’s ideal form.
To reiterate, these are my opinions, they are subject to questioning, change, ridicule, and support- all of which I’m bound to learn from…
Cheers,
B

... and, IMO, Hogan was a purely left sided swinger until he reached impact, at which point he fired his right side. He talks with great passion about using his left arm to take the club away- it’s unlikely that he switched to a right side driven downswing motion after that. It seems possible, through observation and through reading what he says, that his right side(hand) took over through impact. I’ve said it before on this site, but I think Hogan’s thinking worked in reverse to what he thought. He was a man that feared it going left. I believe that he used CF to actually keep the face open through impact, even though he felt that trying to open the face, as he did, away from the ball, required a reciprocal closing through it. It’s the closing of the face he thought he was partaking in, that, IMO, was the CF driven toe lagging that enabled him to hit it straight.
It’s often said that Hogan eliminated the left side of the golf course.I reckon he was afraid of the left side of the course every time he stood over a ball. It was the right side of the course that he had eliminated. As a chronic hooker of the ball, a fear of going right probably never crossed his mind. He could fire his right side through impact to his heart’s content without any thought if it ever going right…...
Cheers,
B

Guys,

To me it is not a question of 100% correct, the bible or explaining all good swings. The question is, IS THERE ANYTHING BETTER for golf in general? To me – not a hope.

Short cuts are attractive but dangerous

The best swings are at the top end of complexity. Chap.10 starts at the simplest and progresses through to the most complex of each of the 24 components.

Burleys questions are just a fun exercise and not instructive. At the bottom end HITTING AND SWING are childishly simple, at the top end they an be so complex as to non discussable unless you talk to the golfer just after that particular shot.

He may have added pressure to hold a cut into the wind (hit), or left the club swing freely (swing) to take advantage of a right to left wind down a right to left slope.

I love Lag and his insights but I/we have shut our mouths form the start to give him a go and he has become more and more my way or the highway.

I like Lag being here and he has his own sight. To deride Homer is to self inflate. And as is easily demonstrable great players need add nothing to the teaching of the game. Most teaching is done at a basic level where complete coverage of skills hitting and swinging are vital so as we don’t slip into either unwittingly.

Fine differences are to be differentiated for success – mainly in the loading area.

Thats interesting and I respect your opinion about what you believe Hogan to do. I on the other hand do not agree with it, but that is my opinion of reasearching Hogan swing for many years and talking with his inner circle. Hogan did not want to hit it left but what is Ironic is that Hogan developed a shot that would never go left with draw tendency’s. I watched Hogan hit balls as a kid, and everyone I ever talked to that played against him or with him said he had a ball that moved in different direction. I rember this, and since learning of D-plane of late understand this now. Hogan took out the left by hitting a push that apeared to draw back tot he target and as it lost it’s rotation feel off the D-plane right, appearing to fade or move in two directions. What better way to take out the left side.

BurleyGolf-

I guess that’s my point- his focus was always on taking out the left side.. hitting it right never entered his mind… therefore the right side was what he really eliminated, consciously or otherwise…..

MHS was Homers not anyone else’s concept. Nothing to do with LBs, whom you seem to wish to infer is making things up. Go ask him. Far from the case, he is one of those who does teach the entire book, not just his take on it. You could ask Joe Daniels about MHS and get the same answers.
Anyone who hits a bunker shot aiming behind the ball to get the club in the sand first has learned MHS.

Experience of situations and distilling knowledge and experience is Capt 14. But Chapter 2 keeps you knowing about the black box and bringing you back to reality.

I-L is all about the geometric delivery of a power package. That is force delivered on plane. Geometry dictates almost everything including the line of compression.

Balance, force, power, rhythm that all the greats talk about within all their methods, are all in there. All directing power geometrically on a balanced rotating platform – pushing or pulling, or parts of both. That allows a lot of patterns to be catered for within this ISG Golf School.

Hey iseek,

Would’nt you find this statement to be true for alot of TGM instructor;

The Golf Machine is not a Method rather an accumilation of all pattern possiblities, a TGM instructor may chose patterns to what he believes is correct in a golf swing and then it becomes his Method of TGM. Many TGM instructors teach Methods of Instructors who sought out their own pattern and is now the Method of these teachers who are trained under these TGM Instructors.

BurleyGolf-

Showme: Homer’s shown more Rules to apply than most would have gathered by luck or judgement, or guess work.
Its contents works, be you a granny or a tour pro – and I would guess there are a fair few patterns within that range:)

How you learn to apply those Imperatives comes down to you and your instructor/s and which pattern and precision level that you can achieve.

Burley: I think we posted at the same time there. Indeed IMHO there are TGM instructors who teach patterns that they themselves do best. Ben is a perfect example – and I am not picking on him by saying that.

When you go to an ‘open’ TGM coach, you could end up with a hitter or a swingers training program, or indeed be taught both so you can feel the differences.

Dart,

Help me out here…

Can you honestly say that Homer is correct in excluding a pivot driven form 1 lever assembly as the primary lever assembly of the golf swing?

Homer ignores it completely in 6-A-2

For those who don’t have the book or don’t understand..

There are three possible levers in physics to move an object.

These levers are spelled out in TGM 2-L (Application of Force)

Form 1:

The teeter totter version. Force – fulcrum – Weight
Think of a child on one side of a long board, the fulcrum in the middle, you press down on the other end to lift the child. This is a great lever, easiest to lift the child.

Form 2:

You put the fulcrum all the way out on the end, the child sits in the middle of the board, you lift from under on the other far side of the board. This way you support the whole weight of the child plus the board. Takes a lot more force to lift the child obviously.

Form 3:

You again put the fulcrum out on the end, but this time the child sits all the way on the other side of the board, and you then lift from the middle.

Homer’s discussion on lever assemblies is loud and clear.

6 A 2

The Primary Lever Assembly a dual system of Form 3 levers with the force or power applied between the weight and the fulcrum.
Homer describes the primary lever assembly as such. “Consider the left arm and the clubshaft together as the primary lever. The left shoulder is the fulcrum, the club is the weight (which includes the secondary lever assembly of the hands) This lever assembly is typically propelled by the arms”

So, where is the lever assembly where the pivot force, presses into the left shoulder, to propel the weight of the golf club?

A form 1 level set up as Homer describes in illustrations in 2 L is MISSING! Where is it !!!!!!!

If Homer excluded this because it is not important this is a major flaw in his ideology!

MAJOR!!!

I WILL NOT LET THIS GO!!

Homer suggests that the arms typically drive this form 3 Primary Lever Assembly.

We’ll let’s see, if the right arm is driving it… then that is the right arm thrust stuff, driving extensor action into both arms straight.
Typical TGM stuff here.

The only way the left arm can drive it is with the left hand… or can attempt to disconnect from the fulcrum at the left shoulder, and then you have the arms flying off the body stuff, that sends the clubshaft spiraling off plane. That’s a questionable procedure.

It is so vital for any scientific offering of golf swing explanation to understand the use of power sources… and how they are leveraged.

Why not make use of a form 1 lever? A lever that by the very laws of physics will offer the greatest leverage capacity?

How in the golf swing can a pivot driven lever assembly force – fulcrum – weight or body power, pressure into the shoulder socket, propelling the weight of the arms and club… how can this be overlooked?

Even Homer’s description of the secondary primary lever assembly being the club as the weight, the fulcrum being the left wrist, and Homer says that this secondary form 3 lever is propelled by the hands.

It’s interesting that he chose the words “propelled by the hands”.
He certainly got that right. He also did not specify one hand over the other. He got that right also.

When Hogan said he he wished he had “Three right hands” he was not lying to us. He also said you hit just as hard with the left hand too.

Homer said the secondary lever assembly is driven by THE HANDS…. plural! Just as Hogan speaks to us to this day in his epic work 5 lessons.

Every great ball striker has accelerated their pivot, their torso, or their trunk post impact. Hitting or swinging

Hogan
Snead
Knudson
Moe
Thomson
De Vicenzo
Nicklaus
Palmer
Player
O’Grady
Tiger
Watson
Miller
Nelson

I could go on and on..

If the pivot stalls post impact, the club flips post impact, compression leakage is massive and it’s everything Homer would not want in chapter #2.

So what does TGM teach? Because there is no pivot driven lever assembly acknowledged, you get a bunch of right arm thrusting into this form 3 lever with a pivot stall.

The results? A lot of unnecessary timing involved because the clubface is going to over rotate excessively if the right arm is driving actively into impact, or even if it is being pulled straight by CF with a dead arm dead hand protocol.

Homer warn us load and clear:

1-F

“Variations in elbow bend or location during release will disturb clubface control by the right arm making it an inferior procedure”

So when we see great strikers like Hogan, Knudson, Player, De Vicenzo, Peter Senior, with their right elbow glued to their torso from P3 to P4, using a frozen right arm resisting CF’s attempt to straighten it, or resisting the temptation to fire it prematurely actively, these players relied upon post impact (form 1 lever) to drive the club through impact. Exactly what Homer ignores in his description of how power must be leveraged through the golf swing.

It’s bad science, it’s bad physics, and it’s bad to teach it.

So if some of us instructors are adding words… new descriptions and so forth it’s most certainly warranted.

I really don’t know what Lynn teaches, but if he is having to add words like manipulated hand swinger to describe a way around what he knows are some TGM oversights, then more power to him.

The big picture of golfers in general are not coming anywhere near TGM. They are not reading TGM nor are they finding this thread, nor are they finding my site. This is for the fanatics. This is for the true enlightened seekers of the game, the swing and technique.
They need a place too to go for more articulate answers. I feel it is our job as instructors to give people that desire a deeper understanding, and the best chance to really get good at this most difficult game. That’s our responsibility, and teaching a method that is not consistent with what the greats do is selling students short that rely upon us to give them top level instruction.

So, I am not TGM but I can be described through TGM to my pattern. My right arm straitens and my hips fire late, and I play maybe once a week and am scratch. Am I lucky, or talented…

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (F/O)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (DTL)

BurleyGolf-

So, where is the lever assembly where the pivot force, presses into the left shoulder, to propel the weight of the golf club?

Lag, very interesting discussion. In this type of lever if the pivot force is directed into the left shoulder then you have to move the whole assembly including the fulcrum. The force applied must create a torque to counteract the torque created by the mass of the primary lever assembly. Your scenario doesn’t achieve the same type of movement as the others.

Just a question concerning your beliefs. This isn’t meant to be adversarial, but rather thought for learning.

I think you are pretty much right though almost every golfer is a “Switter” except the few guys that are pure swingers of the golf club.

My answer was this.

” A Hitter pushes the palm down” you can’t not have a bent right wrist if you are pushing the palm down to the ball other wise the palm would be facing the target or the sky. After the ball leaves and the pivot releases allowing the inside and up path you are still push the palm now up the plane. The only way this could not happen is if you use a cross over release, or from over hinging.

To me the video of Lynn Blake trying to stick the mail box stick in the ground like a javilin is this very same action. If the palm is facing the target @ compression then the stick is way ahead of the ball, and if the palm is pointing at your face the stick is going airborn (flip)...

hacking dog,

Not sure I am totally clear on what you are saying..

Are you suggesting that a fulcrum must not be in motion? that it must be grounded and stationary? All the more reason for a pivot driven lever.. The feet are on the ground creating pressure and resistance.. that covers that argument.

Homer’s secondary lever assembly of the wrists is obviously in motion. So is Homer’s primary lever assembly of the right arm driving the left arm and shaft into the #1 pressure point. That is moving too.

Surely the pivot is supplying power to the golf swing..
For force to be applied, there must be a power source, and that power source must be pressing into something..

In TGM, the power source provided by the pivot, Homer calls this the master accumulator. Better known as the 4th accumulator. The pressure point is basically at the left arm pit. This is better known as pressure point #4.

Does this not constitute a lever assembly? A form 1 lever where the chain of action is Force – Fulcrum – Weight?

[Force (pivot) Fulcrum (left shoulder) Weight (arms, club)

A form 1 lever is always the most effective way to create leverage, as my examples above.

Why does Homer put so little emphasis on this in TGM?

Every great ball striker accelerates their pivot, in particular the torso or trunk muscles post impact.

Homer offers this up in 2-M-3, and I have referenced this many times on this thread and on my site as well.

Homer’s exact words…

“Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives the #4 accumulator through impact, it’s assignment during that interval (impact) is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during delivery.”

This is where we have a “Y” in the road.

Clearly Homer is not fond of the idea of the pivot driving or accelerating post impact. So much that he discarded it as having it’s own lever assembly. As much as Homer screams throughout the book about hitters holding shaft flex, he is clearly in favor of the right arm driving his primary lever assembly through impact, and not the pivot.

The idea that the function of the pivot, torso, #4 pressure point is only for delivery of the power package. Homer defines the power package as:

6-0

“The power package concepts isolates and defines the function of the hands and arms in propelling the club into impact. The power package consists of the arms and the club.”

Homer then goes on..

“The power package includes the four power accumulators, the four pressure points, their loading and clubhead lag”

But Homer simply does not like the idea of the pivot driving the club into and beyond impact. He prefers it to be a CF automatic release throw or dump into impact… or a driving right arm that he considers to be hitting, or using active right elbow thrusting action. The pivot just simply delivers the goods, and then stalls.

But this is not what great ball strikers do. It certainly is not what I do.
But in all fairness to TGM, a pattern such as for instance my own ( I will use myself as a reference because I can speak with direct and personal knowledge of my component variations) I am getting the feeling that this 2 M 3 idea is not found in good favor within the TGM community.

My point is simply this… as a pretty good striker of the golf ball, and a few of you on this site have played with me in person, my component catalog better be covered in a book as universal as TGM is supposed to be.

I have every reason to believe that Homer understood exactly what I am talking about. He clearly acknowledges it it 2-M-3. yet seems to want to dismiss it everywhere else in the book..

With 24 components and 124 variations, that is a lot of possible golf swings and all geometrically correct according to Homer.

Am I not covered? Really?

I have been accused of not teaching TGM here, but I can back up everything I do with TGM scripture if needed.

If Lynn Blake is patching the holes in the dike, THAT is good science. Inventing new words or procedures to fit his beliefs based upon his experience and teaching understudy, that should be the goal of GOOD science.

If the goal is to blindly ignore possible errors of oversights within TGM, it simply becomes religion, and that is not good science.

Burley
I think Lag would do best to rename his protocol some other than hitting because if you compare it to the hitting procedure you and everyone else is describing there are no similarities. I have been training (and I mean training hard) with Lag for 7 months and we are only now beginning to incorporate some of the stuff into a golf swing that you hit balls with.
And that is the problem. Despite all of Lag’s posts he can not even give you the feel of it because it requires different muscles being trained.
What he is describing works in opposits. Like you are trying to resist the pivot and it moves harder when you cant hold any more. You are trying to break the wrists at the ball but can not because right at that time the pivot is moving super fast. Its like everything in your body works against each other and the result is creation of tension that releases post impact.

Lag, thank you for taking the time and energy to respond. My question is: in a Form 1 Lever the force applied is on the other side of the fulcrum from the mass. If the fulcrum is your left shoulder, how are you applying a force that will make your assembly act as a Form 1 Lever?

Thank you for your time and energy.

Thats an AWESOME question!!! I read it like 20 times and related back to my previous post about Freddie Couple and what makes him a swinger to me..

One thing you will notice is @ Compression his right elbow is still bent and his shoulders are open. Swinger could throw the club forward at impact and Hitter can’t.
Pure Swinger

Maybe this is why Swingers create width on the down swing or some extend the right arm well past impact???

HD
I can understand your struggle. Because like you I was stuck in considering the hands and arms as the only power source. In this lever the upper torso is the force which inturn is activated by the lower torso/hips which in turn were activated by the legs and feet. Its like a power wave going from the feet up the upper torso, much like a crane (does not have a power source distal to the fulcrum).

HD
I can understand your struggle. Because like you I was stuck in considering the hands and arms as the only power source. In this lever the upper torso is the force which inturn is activated by the lower torso/hips which in turn were activated by the legs and feet. Its like a power wave going from the feet up the upper torso, much like a crane (does not have a power source distal to the fulcrum).

“

If there is no distance between the force and the fulcrum, there is no torque created and therefore cannot be a Form 1 Lever. A Form 1 Lever is very specific and your explanation does not answer my question.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and trying to help me understand Lag’s views.

edit: if there is no distance between the force and the fulcrum, it is not any type of Lever.

If the feet aren’t ever discussed in TGM then you could talk all day long about what is what- fulcrums/levers etc- .....the feet/legs are an extremely important cog that were left out of discussion- so some answers asked will never be given proper understanding or receive the right credit or focus

I don’t remember reading ONE word about footwork/weight transfer in the yellow book- which is a fairly important part of the swing- leave that out and you may as well tell someone to grind the gears without using the clutch.
that’s why this discussion is never ending. Educated hands put with uneducated feet spells disaster in my book, and so the cycle goes on…..
and that is why Lag is the smartest man I have ever met with regards to the swing. Every base covered. Every ‘i’ dotted and ‘t’ crossed…there is no room for doubt with what he talks about. He incorporates TGM ideals with his own experience and views of what all the great strikers did- and he is not wrong- and that’s from my experience and now wide open views also after receiving years of crap method teaching

HD
I can think of things but that will be speculation so I will leave it the experts. I do appreciate your way of probing though.
I am medical doctor and although no expert in biomechanics at all (thats not what they teach you any way), I do know that the shoulder joint (the connection between the the head of humerus and the glenoid fossa of the shoulder blade is indirectly attached to the spine which is the center of the torso, by the clavicle and the rest of the scapula; meaning there is distance between the two.

Thanks macs and Shome, I know that Lag understands the mechanics very well, that is why I continue with this questioning. Not at all to try and prove him wrong, but because in my mind he has made a couple of statements that I can’t reconcile as being correct and therefore I am searching for understanding from someone that has a lot of knowledge and ability and who chooses his words and descriptions wisely. Here is my concern: a Form 1 Lever is a very specific mechanism that includes a fulcrum, a mass (weight) and a force. In a Form 1 Lever, the force is on the opposite side of the fulcrum from the mass (weight). I personally don’t see how this is possible in a human shoulder. Lag answered me about pivot power and included a pressure point around the armpit from the 4th power accumulator. This does not form a Form 1 Lever because the force is on the same side as the mass (weight), from the fulcrum. Since I don’t believe that my question has been answered correctly, I continue to probe.

Thanks again for your time and effort to help me understand.

I think this Magill Forceps still is a pair of form 1 levers even if the force arm is verticle like the torso and legs and the load arm is near horizontal. All the levers work in the golf swing it is there sequence that defines the pattern.

Swingers and hitters both should have a bent right arm at impact… neither get straight until way past the ball unless you are hacking.

Foot action is in the yellow book, under Foot Action, as is Hip action – part of Zone One.

For all the Levers mentioned above, if you keep the idea as simple as it is, you either pull the butt of the club in a circle, or you drive (push) the handle of the club.

Again Lag is saying that Homer wants CF to fly the clubhead into impact. CF does unload the wrist cock as the clubhead gets outside the hands but his preference was always to use Impact Fix alignments to cater for where you want to play the ball from. Therefore you have Manipulation of where and how the CF is directed. This is NOT hitting and its what allows a swinger to use an Angled Hinge or a Vertical Hinge when required.

The swinger still gains power from pivot (#4 and the weakest individual power source), the role (#3 power accumulator), and uncocking of the wrist (#2) supported by the driving right shoulder. Most of that power is Left sided speed supported by the right.

The hitter gains power from the initial drive of the right shoulder down plane (yes that is pivot) the right arm thrust which is (#1 PA) uncocking of the right VIA the right arms active thrust and the role that goes with it. The check reign job of the left arm and Pressure Point #4 stops the right arm flying off into oblivion. Most of this is right side speed.

The hitters platform is the right shoulder. Its in motion, not not as fast as is the swingers as it is not its main role to generate the power. Over acceleration for a hitter too soon in the piece is death.

For those who accelerate their pivot and whip their right arm through the ball, well that is not a hitting action either. That is a right arm swing as the pivot motion is still a fast start down and then CF used ( with MHS Impact Fix initially aligned hands) to pull the club down.

Go get some rope and start to pull it around you left and right handed. Then from the top try just push it. Rapid fire grasping of what a hit and a swing is. I care not what kind of pivot or levers you want to talk of or use, get where the power is coming from and how its directed and then you can get what Homer was on about as the take on what is going on is not what is in the book.

Push the handle or pull it. That is a simple choice. If you wish to pull then push (floated hit) you can do that too, but its a more complex beast to control.

Right now ‘seems as if’ is confusing too many in this thread.

I don't remember reading ONE word about footwork/weight transfer in the yellow book- which is a fairly important part of the swing- leave that out and you may as well tell someone to grind the gears without using the clutch.
that's why this discussion is never ending. Educated hands put with uneducated feet spells disaster in my book, and so the cycle goes on…..

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

I don’t have the yellow book in front of me and I am no expert. But I do recall reading something about footwork and weight shift.

Per 7-17:

“The majority of the weight should be on the heel, and it is better to
turn on one’s heel than to roll excessively. Address Position loading of the
Feet is even distribution between both Feet but with enough on the heels to
allow the toes to be lifted up momentarily without altering the distribution
between the toe and heel.”

iseekgolf???
Swingers and hitters both should have a bent right arm at impact… neither get straight until way past the ball unless you are hacking.

Hacking @ it….What?

Hitters – Hogan, Tiger, Elkington (Strait Right Arm)

Swingers – Couples, Mac O’Grady (Bent Right Arm)

TGM – Brian Gay (Flipper)

BG is at BAS there. Thats past the ball.

Right forearm angle of approach looks good in all. I would suggest that those arms are still straightening (if you had a DTL look at them too) and a good example of different elbow positions for different releases.

I don't remember reading ONE word about footwork/weight transfer in the yellow book- which is a fairly important part of the swing- leave that out and you may as well tell someone to grind the gears without using the clutch.
that's why this discussion is never ending. Educated hands put with uneducated feet spells disaster in my book, and so the cycle goes on…..

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

I don't have the yellow book in front of me and I am no expert. But I do recall reading something about footwork and weight shift.

Per 7-17:

’ÄúThe majority of the weight should be on the heel, and it is better to
turn on one's heel than to roll excessively. Address Position loading of the
Feet is even distribution between both Feet but with enough on the heels to
allow the toes to be lifted up momentarily without altering the distribution
between the toe and heel.”

OK…must have missed that..7 pages with about 6 paragraphs and 4 photos talking about foot/legs rolling back and over from ankle to ankle- out of 234 pages (volume 7)...not enough compared to all the other extensive detail that was dished out

The Lever Forms:

TGM primary and secondary lever assemblies:

Straight from the yellow book

BG is at BAS there. Thats past the ball.

Right forearm angle of approach looks good in all. I would suggest that those arms are still straightening (if you had a DTL look at them too) and a good example of different elbow positions for different releases.

Your right..LoL I could not find an impact photo, but I was watching him out on the range this year and he flips with his backwards leg thrust. When he is on though…

I don’t believe I said full extended right arm that would mean lock to me and if I did I messed up. So in that mind as to what you said about the right arm being bent, I know you did not say how much bend. Looking @ Tiger, and Hogan just before compression that right arm is pretty strait on Tiger and Hogan is getting there but still a good foot away from Compression..

Bom: thanks for the pics which show bent right arms:)

All Swingers, even the Hogan pic that was pre accident…. Then He became a “SWITTER”

BurleyGolf-

A measurement without a knowledge of its uncertainty is meaningless
- Walter Lewin

Lets look @ Hogan after his big swing change…

Nobody who plays to a high level can swit consistently enough. They are either pushers or pullers, otherwise they cannot get through impact consistently enough.

If you want to a call a float procedure a swit as a name thats fine but it confuses the issue of where the power comes from.

No worries Guru…..
Burley…..These second photos are too blurry to make a claim off them. Regardless, your original claim was that Hogan was a hitter with a straight right arm at impact, now you’re saying he’s a switter. One way or another, his right arm was very much bent at impact and beyond- before and after the accident…

The other thing is that I think it’s a reach to call Tiger a hitter- imo. And also, isn’t Trevino considered a hitter by most standards?

Nobody who plays to a high level can swit consistently enough. They are either pushers or pullers, otherwise they cannot get through impact consistently enough.

If you want to a call a float procedure a swit as a name thats fine but it confuses the issue of where the power comes from.

So where is the power here coming from??

Key Words load and clear 1-F: Elbow bend, disturb clubface control, the right arm …

Bottom line to me is if the right arm is bent at impact you are swinging, you can’t hit with the left arm as a right handed golfer..IMO

Clearly Homer is using the left shoulder, armpit, #4 pressure point in his illustration of the primary lever.

The secondary lever he is saying the left wrist is acting as the fulcrum.

My argument is simply this..

Where is the pivot driven lever assembly?

If we take the entire cumulative action of the feet, knees, hips, torso, shoulders, and lump them all together and call that the pivot, there is a tremendous amount of power there, all the biggest strongest muscles in the body, and they all are set up to apply an even more leveraging Form 1 lever application.

Whether the pressures of the rotating torso are pressing into the left armpit, the right arm pit, both armpits as in a triangle (as BP has called the shoulder girdle, or two sides of the same thing) we clearly have a lever assembly here do we not? Am I crazy?

If Lynn Blake can coin the phase “manipulated hand swinger” which is nowhere in any TGM book, only extrapolated from parts of different sentences.. then I would like to have the same honor of coining a new phase here… “The Master Lever Assembly” in the same way Lynn has.. I take from Homer’s Master accumulator (the pivot) and combine it with “Lever assembly”

Now I might be able to clear up a few things that Guru has suggested I do.

A few people have brought questions to Guru and Dart,

“what is Lag talking about when he says fire the hands?
This sounds like FLW is going to collapse and break down this imperative? This can’t be right can it?”

Ok… here we go…

If THE MASTER LEVER ASSEMBLY is moving faster than the primary lever assembly, you can fire the secondary lever assembly as hard and as fast as you can. (the hands and or right arm)

This is why Hogan said he wished he had “three right hands”
Snead said the same thing. Because they had great post impact pivot acceleration.

THE MASTER LEVER ASSEMBLY can stay ahead quite easily because it has the following advantages over the other two levers.

1. It is utilizing the biggest strongest muscles in the body.
2. It is utilizing a the obvious advantages of a form 1 lever
3. It is located at the center of the swing’s rotating core therefore can easily turn faster because it is turning within a tighter smaller radius.

Now how do you do this?

You have to spend a bit of time training the body to sequence these things properly. I teach my students to do this, and their results are admirable.

This is exactly what Ben Hogan did, Palmer, Player, Knudson, all the great strikers that maintained shaft flex to impact.

Homer loved the idea of holding shaft flex to impact. Bringing a pre stressed clubshaft into impact. It’s all over Homer’s chapter #2.

Is this protocol covered in TGM? It certainly should be… it’s only what every great striker does.

If you go through 2-M-3, and ignore Homer’s word “unless” which gives the impression he didn’t like this idea, and put in the word
“YOU MUST” then you can find this pattern supported.. but you must include a MASTER LEVER ASSEMBLY.

If you deny “The Reality” that a pivot driven lever exists… you are limited to a hand and arm golf swing with a passive post impact stalling pivot.

As Ayn Rand once wrote:

“You CAN ignore reality, but you CANNOT ignore the consequences of ignoring reality”

Right arm thrust. I chopped trees down last week and had a laugh with the wife showing how to deliver the axe head either via CF or RAT. The latter is way more powerful and accurate than the former with such a heavy head. Swingers pivot action meant MHS not possible for the heavy end. Hitters pivot needed.

Now I can see the greenies complaining that golfers are out cutting down trees to try this out.

’#4 is your key.

Right arm thrust. I chopped trees down last week and had a laugh with the wife showing how to deliver the axe head either via CF or RAT. The latter is way more powerful and accurate than the former with such a heavy head. Swingers pivot action meant MHS not possible for the heavy end. Hitters pivot needed.

Now I can see the greenies complaining that golfers are out cutting down trees to try this out.

LoL…Damn tree huggers..:-)

Again LB did not invent MHS Homer did.

“If THE MASTER LEVER ASSEMBLY is moving faster than the primary lever assembly, you can fire the secondary lever assembly as hard and as fast as you can. (the hands and or right arm)”

How are you ‘firing’ push or pull? If you are spinning as fast as possible from the get go, you better be hoping to swing. Otherwise you body is going one way and now you have to drive the hands out of their orbit which is a major redirection and now its timing which is going to control fleeting clubface alignments.

A ton of lag in the hands can feel like you are hitting, yet all you are doing is catching a heavy club in the right hand which is being dragged fast. Go find a tree.

Dart,

Help me out here…

Can you honestly say that Homer is correct in excluding a pivot driven form 1 lever assembly as the primary lever assembly of the golf swing?

Homer ignores it completely in 6-A-2

For those who don't have the book or don't understand..

There are three possible levers in physics to move an object.

These levers are spelled out in TGM 2-L (Application of Force)

Form 1:

The teeter totter version. Force – fulcrum – Weight
Think of a child on one side of a long board, the fulcrum in the middle, you press down on the other end to lift the child. This is a great lever, easiest to lift the child.

Form 2:

You put the fulcrum all the way out on the end, the child sits in the middle of the board, you lift from under on the other far side of the board. This way you support the whole weight of the child plus the board. Takes a lot more force to lift the child obviously.

Form 3:

You again put the fulcrum out on the end, but this time the child sits all the way on the other side of the board, and you then lift from the middle.

Homer's discussion on lever assemblies is loud and clear.

6 A 2

The Primary Lever Assembly a dual system of Form 3 levers with the force or power applied between the weight and the fulcrum.
Homer describes the primary lever assembly as such. ’ÄúConsider the left arm and the clubshaft together as the primary lever. The left shoulder is the fulcrum, the club is the weight (which includes the secondary lever assembly of the hands) This lever assembly is typically propelled by the arms”

So, where is the lever assembly where the pivot force, presses into the left shoulder, to propel the weight of the golf club?

A form 1 level set up as Homer describes in illustrations in 2 L is MISSING! Where is it !!!!!!!

If Homer excluded this because it is not important this is a major flaw in his ideology!

MAJOR!!!

I WILL NOT LET THIS GO!!

Homer suggests that the arms typically drive this form 3 Primary Lever Assembly.

We'll let's see, if the right arm is driving it… then that is the right arm thrust stuff, driving extensor action into both arms straight.
Typical TGM stuff here.

The only way the left arm can drive it is with the left hand… or can attempt to disconnect from the fulcrum at the left shoulder, and then you have the arms flying off the body stuff, that sends the clubshaft spiraling off plane. That's a questionable procedure.

It is so vital for any scientific offering of golf swing explanation to understand the use of power sources… and how they are leveraged.

Why not make use of a form 1 lever? A lever that by the very laws of physics will offer the greatest leverage capacity?

How in the golf swing can a pivot driven lever assembly force – fulcrum – weight or body power, pressure into the shoulder socket, propelling the weight of the arms and club… how can this be overlooked?

Even Homer's description of the secondary primary lever assembly being the club as the weight, the fulcrum being the left wrist, and Homer says that this secondary form 3 lever is propelled by the hands.

It's interesting that he chose the words ’Äúpropelled by the hands”.
He certainly got that right. He also did not specify one hand over the other. He got that right also.

When Hogan said he he wished he had ’ÄúThree right hands” he was not lying to us. He also said you hit just as hard with the left hand too.

Homer said the secondary lever assembly is driven by THE HANDS…. plural! Just as Hogan speaks to us to this day in his epic work 5 lessons.

Every great ball striker has accelerated their pivot, their torso, or their trunk post impact. Hitting or swinging

Hogan
Snead
Knudson
Moe
Thomson
De Vicenzo
Nicklaus
Palmer
Player
O'Grady
Tiger
Watson
Miller
Nelson

I could go on and on..

If the pivot stalls post impact, the club flips post impact, compression leakage is massive and it's everything Homer would not want in chapter #2.

So what does TGM teach? Because there is no pivot driven lever assembly acknowledged, you get a bunch of right arm thrusting into this form 3 lever with a pivot stall.

The results? A lot of unnecessary timing involved because the clubface is going to over rotate excessively if the right arm is driving actively into impact, or even if it is being pulled straight by CF with a dead arm dead hand protocol.

Homer warn us load and clear:

1-F

’ÄúVariations in elbow bend or location during release will disturb clubface control by the right arm making it an inferior procedure”

So when we see great strikers like Hogan, Knudson, Player, De Vicenzo, Peter Senior, with their right elbow glued to their torso from P3 to P4, using a frozen right arm resisting CF's attempt to straighten it, or resisting the temptation to fire it prematurely actively, these players relied upon post impact (form 1 lever) to drive the club through impact. Exactly what Homer ignores in his description of how power must be leveraged through the golf swing.

It's bad science, it's bad physics, and it's bad to teach it.

So if some of us instructors are adding words… new descriptions and so forth it's most certainly warranted.

I really don't know what Lynn teaches, but if he is having to add words like manipulated hand swinger to describe a way around what he knows are some TGM oversights, then more power to him.

The big picture of golfers in general are not coming anywhere near TGM. They are not reading TGM nor are they finding this thread, nor are they finding my site. This is for the fanatics. This is for the true enlightened seekers of the game, the swing and technique.
They need a place too to go for more articulate answers. I feel it is our job as instructors to give people that desire a deeper understanding, and the best chance to really get good at this most difficult game. That's our responsibility, and teaching a method that is not consistent with what the greats do is selling students short that rely upon us to give them top level instruction.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

WON’T LET GO. MUST. OK but can you honestly say there is a MAJOR difference in a golfing application of Levers 1 and 3. Pedantic at best. The arm and club are moved by the body.

A simple test with a knife being held at the end with a push from from a little further down and held further down and pushed from the top.

The Golfing Machine is dedicated to Joe Duffer and Joe Pro for keeping golf alive and is intended to serve as the Golf Nuts Catalogue, the Circuits Player’s Handbook and the Instructors Textbook.

I think you a little churlish to turn on your teacher. I think you will grow out of it.

I look forward to the book. I hope it helps more than a few fanatics.

All the best.

Lagpressure is a Swinger that is mistaking loads of extensor action as right arm thrust. The same can be said for Hogan and Snead wishing they had more right hands.

Manipulated hands applies to alignments, primarily the clubface, not power.
It’s only mentioned under Hinge Action, and Grip Types regarding ball flight control.

“Hinge actions describe and control the manipulation of the hands through the impact interval, which in turn controls the clubface motions.” (ed: closing only, layback only, closing with layback)

“All these types (hinging) can also be duplicated with wrists only, arms only or body only manipulations using Minor Basic strokes (the Arm Motion category).”

2-M-3 says “The hands are strong, educated, adjustable clamps attaching the club to the arms for control of clubface alignments. By themselves, they are able to drive the ball only a relatively short distance. Even the wristcock is not properly an action of the wrist muscles. So the only absolutely essential muscular contribution of the wrists is ‘holding on’.” (ed: typo? “hands and wrists”?)

And, “The greatest hazard this component (2-M-3 Muscles) faces is the belief that ‘effort’ is ‘power’. Mechanical advantage must be utilized.”

Jimmy Ballard surmises that Hogan meant three right sides and exhorts students to “fire the right side”. But he also says that “Effort is not Power.” He is anything but mechanically precise, saying “We want to keep it simple (stupid).” (My parenthetical.)

When bio assessed Lag he found that he is definitely a hitter. Four barrel I think.

Show me some video of Lag I can tell you reall quick if he is a hitter or swinger. My eye is as good as they come…

BurleyGolf-

Available on YouTube under Lagpressure “Lag on Swingvision”.

When bio assessed Lag he found that he is definitely a hitter. Four barrel I think.

Breaking 80 is my goal
PST is my full swing weapon of choice

About four barrels. Homer frowned upon teaching four barrels until three were mastered. Even one takes some doing.

Four barrels should be left to the pupil and his coach to explore. Left arm hitting for instance

I would say that lag is as homer talked about a right arm swinger… He holds a nice angle and gets into a 4:20 postion nice on the downsing. If he looses his right hand angle to soon or to late he will be fighting it going left, because he uses the left shoulder to square the club arc and the right hand to control the face. You could call it a Switter but I don’t think he classifies as a sSwitter either, nor a Hitter. Pure right hand Swinger to me…

Hogan laid the club off with a Harley move that moved the elbow forward and got the club under the right shoulder so he could hit with his right side angle he created..

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (Homer)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (Lag)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (Gay – Hitter)

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=related (Ryo – Swinger)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (Secret Right arm Swinger)

How does one recognize when the right elbow becomes the swing center, which defines the right arm swinger, according to 1-F, 10-3-K Bat with loosened wrists at bottom of 7-19?

1-F The right hand should not control the club face. Right hand, clubhead. Left hand, clubface.

Lagpressure’s quote above from 1-F:
“Variations in elbow bend and/or location during release will disturb clubface control by the right arm making it an inferior procedure (to left hand sensing and control).”

How does one recognize when the right elbow becomes the swing center, which defines the right arm swinger, according to 1-F, 10-3-K Bat with loosened wrists at bottom of 7-19?

1-F The right hand should not control the club face. Right hand, clubhead. Left hand, clubface.

Lagpressure's quote above from 1-F:
’ÄúVariations in elbow bend and/or location during release will disturb clubface control by the right arm making it an inferior procedure (to left hand sensing and control).”

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

If you are talking Jim Hardy’s Rigaht Arm Swing 1PS then Hardy uses the left shoulder to control the face and the folding of the right arm to square the club arc.

I just see it, if you are talking to me??? Mozart looked down and saw music, were others look down and see black and white.. Who do you think would know best if the piano was out of tune or in tune?

You have talked to me before and you know I have a gift for the golf swing and learning, my problem has always been learning how to explain in hard to understand terms with others who know these words like Fulcrum, orbit..etc.. So I gave up on that because it was hurting my teaching even though I still try to educate myself on motion and uses.

Being 35 now and 31 when I started working with PGA Tour players even though it was just with short game and now getting into full swing. I would say that I might know a little about a lot..LoL

http://www.youtube.com/watc...;feature=player_embedded (Pure Swingers and Hitters)

BurleyGolf-

Thanks, Blake.
It was to the forum. A muse.
I know nothing about Jim Hardy’s method. It sounds like pivot-controlled hands, using body to control alignments.

(post amended)

I don’t mean to butt into your guys discussion, but Loren constantly backs up his opinions with concrete information. You’re argument, Burley, is that you can’t explain but you’ve got a gift for the golf swing?! Really?! Having looked at the footage you’ve presented here of your golf swing, I seriously doubt it. I don’t mean to be rude, but your ‘classic one plane swingers hitch at the top’ is a sad mess that can’t be compensated for at any point in your downswing. The result is throw away and hand flipping that, if it’s your ideal, god help your students.
I gotta say it like I see it, man. Loren has helped me and many others here with his clarity and understanding. I’ve seen nothing from you that comes close to what he’s got. I’d save the Mozart references for the more adept!

I don't mean to butt into your guys discussion, but Loren constantly backs up his opinions with concrete information. You're argument, Burley, is that you can't explain but you've got a gift for the golf swing?! Really?! Having looked at the footage you've presented here of your golf swing, I seriously doubt it. I don't mean to be rude, but your ‘classic one plane swingers hitch at the top' is a sad mess that can't be compensated for at any point in your downswing. The result is throw away and hand flipping that, if it's your ideal, god help your students.
I gotta say it like I see it, man. Loren has helped me and many others here with his clarity and understanding. I've seen nothing from you that comes close to what he's got. I'd save the Mozart references for the more adept!

A measurement without a knowledge of its uncertainty is meaningless
- Walter Lewin

I am friends with Loren

BurleyGolf-

“EDITED”

There’s a difference between an ugly swing and a bad swing. Yours is the latter. I genuinely didn’t mean to be rude, but you do have that classic Hardy Hitch. HIs method puts the club so deep in the backswing that the only way to get back at the ball is to make that throw away move.
And you really shouldn’t assume that the people around here are less experienced playing wise or teaching wise than you are.
I’m glad your friends with Loren, but your argument is still weak- I just called you on it, that’s all.
Cheers,
B
ps. the editing of posts after they’ve been posted really is a difficult thing to account for- the goal ‘posts’ shouldn’t be moved after the shots been taken :)

Guess which one is Miller Barber…

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Thanks, Blake.
It was to the forum. A muse.
I know nothing about Jim Hardy's method. It sounds like pivot-controlled hands, using body to control alignments.

(post amended)

(Systems Analyst, not an AI)

Yea, I worked with Team Hardy from 2001 till 2007 first lessons I ever took, started swinging before I could walk….. I did make a great friend out of it though with Marty Fleckman whom I still talk with. I might have some Hardy in my swing but some of what he says I believe in, the rest like, pulling the lawn mower and trunk swinging is Blah.. but that is just my opinion Hardy is a smart man, just don’t agree is all..

bg-

I don’t need to guess which one is MB… but it’s a great vid
Cheers…

I’m trying to work out why if the heading of this forum is called :
LAG’S GOLF MACHINE….......why should anyone query, question, bitch or moan….it is Lag’s machine and it’s a Rolls Royce compared to the VW Beetles that are running around teaching ‘ideas’....If anyone wants to question the ethics behind it- then start your own Machine Page and go for your life
There is little co-incidence that this Lag machine page is one of the most frequented, read, used and unfortunately abused pages on this entire forum- because it is great stuff….and Lag absolutely sums up the swings of many of the greatest ball strikers ever- hitters, swingers or switters or switch hitters- and what they do and feel to get the absolute control of the ball that they did.

BG-

Edited

BurelyGolf.
I really wasn’t trying to be an arsehole- I do admire effort and passion. I reckon i thought you were dissing Loren, and I was trying to get his back in some way.
I’ll hold my hands up and say that I was over the line with some of that posting….
B

I posted mine before reading yours… oh well… do what you gotta do…

I'm trying to work out why if the heading of this forum is called :
LAG'S GOLF MACHINE……....why should anyone query, question, bitch or moan….it is Lag's machine and it's a Rolls Royce compared to the VW Beetles that are running around teaching ‘ideas'….If anyone wants to question the ethics behind it- then start your own Machine Page and go for your life
There is little co-incidence that this Lag machine page is one of the most frequented, read, used and unfortunately abused pages on this entire forum- because it is great stuff….and Lag absolutely sums up the swings of many of the greatest ball strikers ever- hitters, swingers or switters or switch hitters- and what they do and feel to get the absolute control of the ball that they did.

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Your right Peace Out, I like Lag, he is a smart man… However Lag did not become smart by not talking, reading, and watch others to come up with his own beliefs to the Golf Swing… People want to challenge Lag and find weakness in his ideas thats human nature. As far as I am concern both sides have made valid points and in the end “THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING”!

Thanks, BomGolf.
Proud to be called a friend of Blake.
Sorry about editing, sometimes a dozen times or so, trying to get it right, and supportable. Sometimes there’s between-the-lines stuff, and consideration of the broader audience too, we hope.

Indian Jimmy made me cringe. Love Miller Barber. Ballard pointed out that he and Jack Nicklaus don’t look much different at the top. I don’t know about that.

I don’t think any of the bank managers of successful golfers care if they hit or swing – not too sure why everyone gets so obsessed with it all
plenty of supposed ‘great swings’ left the tours swiftly and others with ‘ugly’ swings are still wiping their rear ends with $20 notes

I'm trying to work out why if the heading of this forum is called :
LAG'S GOLF MACHINE……....why should anyone query, question, bitch or moan….it is Lag's machine and it's a Rolls Royce compared to the VW Beetles that are running around teaching ‘ideas'….If anyone wants to question the ethics behind it- then start your own Machine Page and go for your life
There is little co-incidence that this Lag machine page is one of the most frequented, read, used and unfortunately abused pages on this entire forum- because it is great stuff….and Lag absolutely sums up the swings of many of the greatest ball strikers ever- hitters, swingers or switters or switch hitters- and what they do and feel to get the absolute control of the ball that they did.

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

Great thread!! Difficult to say who is right/wrong. Homer was probably objective , Lag has his own view but does that mean that great players like Hogan actually do what Lag does/ or thinks they did, although he may have a very good handle on it.

Not all teachers have a VW , but I can agree many do. The old Dart was a player , not just a VW

First post Caedus? Welcome. Grab some popcorn.
No one is right or wrong. Misrepresented perhaps.
“Do what you like. Just know why you’re doing it.”

Dart,

I won’t take that I am churlish, or that I “need to grow out of it” as any kind of insult or attempt at degrading my character. I will take it as your version of respectful intellectual debate.

This shouldn’t be about being on one side of the fence or the other. I do feel my personal procedure should be able to be easily cataloged within TGM, RIGHT? Isn’t that what TGM is all about?
Options?

Justin Tang came to see me here in SF, and we played a round together. He said afterwards, that my ball striking was some of the best he had ever seen. If Helen Keller had been putting for me I would have shot 62. He posted my swing on Lynn’s site for evaluation and they shredded it apart like a bunch of vultures.
One so called expert over there went so far as to say I had no power package assembly. That swing posted, flew a golf ball 280 yards with a 43 inch 13.5 ounce persimmon.

I am in no way trying to turn my back on TGM. What I am trying to do is figure out why so many TGM followers are not mastering the art of striking a golf ball properly, either locally or out on tour.

Why do so many Hogan fanatics turn their back on TGM? Sevam is a perfect example. He contacted me to assist him on his site to help bridge the gap between what many believe Hogan did and what a lot of TGM followers believe Hogan did.

I agree with Sevam and his book is excellent.

But for this gap to be bridged there must be a form 1 pivot driven lever component, or at least be cataloged into Homer’s chapter 6.

I simply don’t see it there other than Homer giving it a passing nod in 2-M-3.

Without 2-M-3, I am faced with quicksand under my feet trying to explain Hogan and many other great strikers within the TGM context.

I refuse to be a blind sheep and follow the path laid by anyone whether it be Homer, Doyle, Lynn Blake, O’Grady or even Hogan.

The number one thing I need to see is FLUSH

So I am inclined to listen to O’Grady, and Hogan of course, even Clampett’s early 80’s version of which I was aligned.

Secondly, it needs to make sense. This can take some digging around, but by keeping an open mind, and listening carefully to the words of the great strikers, and even reading Homer’s book, Hogan, Snead, Mac, etc…

Third, I need to be able to apply the concept myself.

I will never teach a concept I cannot demonstrate myself to a student. That to me is absurd.

Both Doyle and Gregg McHatton were very good at demonstrating a very highly idealistic vision of a pure CF swinging protocol based upon dead passive hands longitudinally dumping CF down and out and using a non manipulated full roll dual horizontal hinge.

Were they able to communicate their ideals to me successfully?

YES

So much so that I became much more proficient at it than both of them. I was one of the top Collegiate players in the US in the mid 1980’s. Good enough to beat the #1 ranked amateur in the world Billy Andrade 6 and 5 in the most prestigious event in the world, the US Amateur. I also took out former US Amateur Champion Nathanial Crosby who had won it at The Olympic Club also.

My point is.. I understand a pure swingers protocol better than most, not just intellectually, but how things need to feel within the body.

Even this swinging method is very PIVOT DRIVEN.

THE ARMS AND HANDS ARE NOT MOVING THE PIVOT!!!

Doyle and McHattons protocol I respect.. even admire…but..
Can this work? YES.. Is this a good practical application to take on tour and go up against the top players in the world? NO

why?

Because as I quickly found out, there is a big difference between beating Billy Andrade and Crosby than being able to go out confidently against Greg Norman, and Peter Senior, Lyle Woosnam and so forth.

What I am talking about is tee to green stuff. If Peter Senior could putt like Tiger Woods, he might have beat Tiger all day long had they played in the same era.

I could chip and putt my way into winning amateur events, a few collegiate events, but turning pro and going right to the big leagues was a big reality check for me. I had to grow up fast if I wanted to play at that level… and so did my golf swing.

When I went home to report back to camp with Doyle and McHatton, I told them that I was swimming in a shark tank infested with world class hitters, who where compressing the ball much deeper using an entirely different protocol than I was. All the things I talk about here, holding shaft flex, a post impact accelerating pivot and so forth.

All I heard from them was.. now now Johnny… sustain the lag Johnny…. sustain the lag.

The simple fact was, neither Doyle nor McHatton had the answers
to teach me how to do what I was seeing out there.

TGM was not offered as a catalog of options as Homer intended from them. It had become blind religion. Take it on faith.

I realized it and moved on.

So I read TGM again, and worked on some of Mac’s ideas, but what I did most was shoot tape of great strikers with a 10 K camera and study what was going on.

It took 9 months to change my swing DNA from swinging to hitting.

Moving from snap loading and seeking maximum shaft flex at transition, then sustaining and delivering that pressure to release point then passively dumping that into the ball…. down and out..

to….

a passive transition building speed gradually with an entirely different power package release sequence, switching from automatic release to non automatic firing of the secondary lever assembly into impact actively with hand thrust just as Hogan talks about in 5 lessons, then using a two stage rocket firing pivot sequence to drive the primary level assembly with the pivot
which actually is driven by THE MASTER LEVER ASSEMBLY post impact, that supports both secondary levers which now holds shaft flex and moves the shaft on plane rather than into a post impact equal angular spiral that creates havoc for all the pivot disconnectors that adhere to that discipline. The pivot force is both supported and driven by ground forces.

So what happened?

I learned how to flush it. I became a top tier striker on any tour I played and feared no one tee to green. Grant Waite and I used to love to get paired together because we knew it was going to be a day of fun visual ball striking spectacle. Can’t say either of us were the best putters in the world, but we loved the sound of hearing each other compress the golf ball and there was always a vibe of “take that” as we worked our shots into tight tricky pin placements. It was all in good fun.

I’m not here to argue against TGM..

However,

With all the wonderful stuff in TGM, it’s not doing anyone any favor to overlook the fact that Homer seems to have failed to properly acknowledge a pivot driven (form 1) lever assembly in is work.

Rather than having TGM be able to properly describe and catalog one of the best ways to strike a golf ball, you end up with people leaping to one side of the fence or the other… and splitting TGM into endless ideological subcultures.

I like the idea of specialists. If you have a BMW, Jaguar, or a Holden Panel wagon, you might seek out different mechanics to work with.

If someone was dead set on a pure CF swinging protocol, I wouldn’t hesitate to send them over to McHatton.

Personally I don’t work a lot with beginners, because the very basics of this game can be taught by just about anyone. Fundamental grip, stance and posture stuff.

I don’t mind teaching beginners or high handicappers, but I don’t teach band aid concepts.

One of my tour player students who was averaging 73.5 on the European Tour before working with me, is now averaging 68.9 over his last 12 rounds.

Needless to say he is quite excited and enjoying the best golf of his life, and filling his bank account with some very spendable cash.

Caedus,

Welcome.

Ease up on the old stuff :)

As long as someone is learning anything it is OK.

Lag, a few thoughts and I will end my end of this discussion unless you deem it worthy of more.
You seem to believe that a Form 1 Lever is superior to the other forms. This is not true. The only difference in the types is the location of the fulcrum, weight and force in relation to each other. Let me repeat, no form is superior to the others in and of itself. You need to quit trying to make a Form 1 Lever fit.

My argument is simply this..

Where is the pivot driven lever assembly?

If we take the entire cumulative action of the feet, knees, hips, torso, shoulders, and lump them all together and call that the pivot, there is a tremendous amount of power there, all the biggest strongest muscles in the body, and they all are set up to apply an even more leveraging Form 1 lever application.

This simply is not a Form 1 Lever, the rest of this argument is worthy of serious consideration, but the consideration is this: If it isn’t a Form 1 Lever than what type is it. Since the weight is out towards the end of the lever arm, it can only be a form 3. The only way to have a Form 1 would be to make the fulcrum at the right hand and use the left hand to push backwards. I think we all agree this would not be a good thing.

The only way to add “leverage” into the swing” is through the left hand, right hand, and possibly a connection through the left pec and left arm.

So the question comes down to this: Is leverage the only way to add energy into the swing?

Caedus,

Welcome.

Ease up on the old stuff :)

As long as someone is learning anything it is OK.

For tuition in Sydney call Paul Hart (TheDart} 0412 070 820.

Terry Hill's, St. Michael's or Milperra Driving Range

Will do Dart

Lag , Nice post again , However the Hogan Picture is subjective, Agree?
Pigeon holing him as doing a one way deal is …... Hogan doesnt fight CF/Inertia
Sweetspot plane is what you miss, plus a few other goodies!!!!

Lag: you are not arguing vs TGM but Homer did get the pivot levers, its all there and so it misrepresents it.

How players wish to view their own swings and feel is fine but do not say that Swingers are pure pivot driven because their power packages are their arms that work ON a pivot, and the pivot is the #4 power source – the weakest. It is not WEAK but it is the weakest. 99% of swingers do not use the geometric set up routine of club and body and therefore have to use Impact Fix/MHS delivery. Therefore to say swingers are all pivot is not correct. It’s why SMcH is a rarity with the Pure CF these days. Better golfers know where their hands are going and how they are operating them on their pivot train, or allowing their hands to be operated by their pivot – with real jobs. Not just willy nilly.

You teach a MH pattern, be it hitting or swinging and by whatever loading pattern you wish to use. You just do not call it that. Is the pattern wrong? No. Of course not. Is it for beginners, no again:) Lots of barrels to master first.

Consider this uncocking thought. In a swinger, the arms are pulled (directed) down plane to the point where the clubhead gets outside the hands at which point the CF unwinds the wrist cock automatically. It’s powerful. Faster pulled the faster the uncock. In a hitter the clamps are working differently. The right arm bend substitutes for the wrist cock and its the powerful straightening of the right arm itself that uncocks the wrist. It physically pushes the wrist cock out into the long lever length that is driven not pulled through to BAS.

One works in a circle. The other a straighter line. Different (and incompatible) power actions and drag or drive geometry. This is what tree chopping can teach anyone to feel the difference. Only with educated hands can you strike what you are really aiming at with any consistency.

Uneducated hands are Dead Hands. Lags hands are no way dumb. They are driven through impact to BAS on the fastest pivot motion that he can employ – to prevent slowing down prior to impact. That may mean as a Hitter that his pivot is way faster than many other hitters out there as he has learned to do it faster than the average bear.

Lagpressure sez:

”...these players relied upon post impact (form 1 lever) to drive the club through impact.”

What am I missing? How can a post-impact lever be used to drive the club through impact? It’s post impact. Do you mean intent will actually drive a post-impact lever pre-impact? Or are we talking about 3/4” between the instance of impact (post impact) to separation, a time frame of 4 or 5 ten-thousandths of a second?

Lag, does your book’s 6-A-2 say: “This assembly is normally propelled by the arms, that is, accumulators and pressure points #1 and/or #4, as discussed under 6-B-1 and 6-B-4.”?
And 6-B-4 “It is pivot power supplying the initial acceleration of the downstroke to throw the lever assemblies toward impact by the thrust of the right shoulder turn. 6-B-4-A Maximum Power is obtained by using maximum on plane shoulder turn thrust against pressure point #4 and maximum swing radius (ed: from the feet).”?

Is that the lever you’re looking for? From the feet?

Does your book’s 6-A-3 say: “This assembly is normally driven by the hands. That is, accumulators and pressure points #2 and/or #3.”?

That is, wrist uncock and roll is the power of the hands against the secondary lever assembly. For the swinger, inertia (CF) alone uncocks the left wrist. The #3 pressure point is used for roll or transfer power of the residual velocity of the left wrist uncocking, and as such, #3 is the true clubhead overtaking accumulator.

Is your book missing the “that is” clauses in the above references?

hacking dog,

The three levers have to do with the order of their three components.

Force

Weight

Fulcrum

If we put the fulcrum at the left shouder, you have the weight on one side of the fulcrum, and the force on the other side of the fulcrum.. how is this not a form 1 lever.. please educate us.

When I say weight, I am referring to the combined weight of the arms, hands, and golf club.

The force I am referring to is the combined force of all the pivot components, feet, legs, hips, torso, all contributing forces leveraged into the fulcrum.

This is a form 1 lever.

The fulcrum is in between the force and the weight..

Study this illustration. I can’t think of a better or more direct way of describing what a pivot driven form 1 lever would look like.

I really have no idea what your argument is.. are you saying that the left shoulder or Homer’s #4 pressure point is incapable of being a fulcrum point? If so, I seriously doubt you have struck a golf ball with such a sensation.

Now I would further argue that in such a pivot driven rotation, that there are pressure points in both shoulders.. of course there are…
This is why you want to keep both upper arms pinned upon the body, and I disagree that it is impossible to be pushing and pulling something at the same time.. of course you can..

The shoulders are connected across like a hanger, or as BPS would say so eloquently, a shoulder girdle.

How can you move one shoulder significantly without moving the other? There is some independent movement possible of course, but not much. Not compared to moving them 180 degrees or more from the top of the backswing to the finish.

Why would you want both arms pinned to your body? Girls throw that way. It is not a pretty sight. Unless you are using a CF pivot powered swing that has a dead right side.

Over on LBs site, your swing was viewed and all that was discussed was what it looked like and what appeared to be in control of what – and using this thread to gain insight into how you feel the swing is produced. The terminology to describe hitting and swinging in this thread is not TGM so it was easy to see how misinterpretations come about.

If you wish to get anywhere, pushing and pulling at the same time then nowhere is going to be the destination, or whichever is the dominant force and force vector.

They can be sequenced to an end result just fine, with a lot of work.

I am an often but not totally committed reader of this topic. My own experiences have tended toward the path of confusion with TGM. I believe the message is often confused with terminology and jargon. The way the book flops around and cross-refers is frustrating to the extreme. I understand that this was Homers way but I also believe it has hindered the application of TGM to a wider audience.

Saying that,
I have just had one of those ‘light bulb’ moments the other day when I read pages 153,154 and 155. Lag’s discussion of pivot driving the hitters use of accelerating right hand/palm got me thinking. The next day at the range, the ball strike had a different sound (a twack vrs a thud) and a different flight. Both power and control were there. I felt a hit was there that I had never experienced before (and i got it to scratch twice!).

I respect Lag’s availability and commitment to this site. All posters who feel they have technical input I suggest you continue to post in TGM terms but some real world translations might also allow the many observers to prosper from this method.

Many Thanks,

Pete

Homer did get the pivot levers, its all there and so it misrepresents it.

Is this pivot lever that you say Homer “did get”, listed anywhere in the book? Is there a reason it is not included when he describes the primary and secondary lever assemblies?

Can you see that if it is hidden in small print somewhere in the book that this could be very misleading for a student studying TGM and wondering how the pivot is to be leveraged in the golf swing when there is no mention of it in clear view?

Guru, I in no way want to misrepresent. However, a pivot driven lever DOES exist as I have described. let’s forget impact and the golf ball for a second, and look at the golf swing as a complete motion from start to finish… with the goal to reach maximum velocity as Hogan described well past the bottom of the swings arc in relation to the ground.

Loren, think of the golf swing this way… with the point of maximum velocity somewhere between impact and what I call P4. Better even at P4. (P4 being where the clubshaft is parallel to the ground
after impact)

More directly put, if we can accelerate the golf club past our lowpoint, then we are holding shaft flex to and beyond impact.

To do this, all you have to do is add a pivot driven form 1 lever between impact and the finish, this being all the way to where the clubshaft would retain it’s inline impact alignment with the clubshaft pointing skyward at finish. Things release when acceleration reaches 0.

To answer your earlier question about the pivot accelerating right from the top to the finish?

Of course not.. The pivot only accelerates from the top to change the direction of the golf club, and deliver the power package down to P3. The pivot decelerates to let everything catch up. Hogan described this as “The Free Ride Down”. Other greats call it a gravity drop, or dropping it into the slot.. this is nothing new.

But once the wrists uncock and rotate into the ball, the pivot picks up speed again.. I call this a second stage rocket firing. This is no different than changing gears in a car. If you are going to pick up speed, you have to shift through a series of gears… if anyone has driven a car with a tachometer, you would see that the engine RPMs drop as you shift shift gears, otherwise you blow the engine or the tranny. No different with the golf swing. The pivot is the engine, take it back, hit the clutch at the top for transition, put it into 2nd gear, start down, hit the clutch, torso RPMs drop, the club comes into the slot, shift again, pop the clutch, and burn the pavement through impact all the way to the finish line. No different.

How players wish to view their own swings and feel is fine but do not say that Swingers are pure pivot driven because their power packages are their arms that work ON a pivot, and the pivot is the #4 power source – It is not WEAK but it is the weakest.

So you are saying that a swinger is powering the golf club with just the arms? and that the pivot is just passively following the instructions of the hands and arms in a very relaxed and un-obtrusive way?

How can you say that the rotational strength of the torso is the weakest power source? Based upon what?

I can turn 200 pounds easy at the gym on a rotary torso machine but couldn’t get anywhere near that with my wrist muscles or my right arm either doing curls or tricep extensions.

Please explain.

It is not WEAK but it is the weakest. 99% of swingers do not use the geometric set up routine of club and body and therefore have to use Impact Fix/MHS delivery. Therefore to say swingers are all pivot is not correct.

Ok.. then if Homer says that a swinger delivers passive hands into impact, if they are not actively hitting or providing independent power other than acting as a hinges to allow for the “Law of the Flail”.. which is really not a power source (the hands), because the law of the flail is simply just releasing angular momentum.

If not the pivot? Then where is the power coming from? Homer doesn’t want swingers driving their right arm into impact other than the gentle release of extensor action. According to Homer, swinging is a left side pull using the principle of the “Endless Belt Effect” This seems correct to me.. look at Couples and VJ, their right hands are dangling off the grip, obviously this is a nod toward passive right hand involvment isn’t it?

It's why SMcH is a rarity with the Pure CF these days.

SMCH?
Who would be a pure CF swinger these days?

Better golfers know where their hands are going and how they are operating them on their pivot train, or allowing their hands to be operated by their pivot – with real jobs. Not just willy nilly.

Ok, agreed there..

You teach a MH (manipulated hand pattern), be it hitting or swinging and by whatever loading pattern you wish to use. You just do not call it that. Is the pattern wrong? No. Of course not. Is it for beginners, no again:) Lots of barrels to master first.

No I am fine with being called a manipulated hand instructor, no passive hands here.. that’s for sure….

Consider this uncocking thought. In a swinger, the arms are pulled (directed) down plane to the point where the clubhead gets outside the hands at which point the CF unwinds the wrist cock automatically.

This is what Homer calls swinging, yes..automatic release.

It's powerful. Faster pulled the faster the uncock.

Yes of course…

In a hitter the clamps are working differently.

Yes they sure are…

The right arm bend substitutes for the wrist cock and its the powerful straightening of the right arm itself that uncocks the wrist. It physically pushes the wrist cock out into the long lever length that is driven not pulled through to BAS.

I completely understand this.. and it looks like this is what Lynn Blake is teaching Brian Gay.

However, you can straighten the right arm from the top quickly without uncocking the wrist, down to P3 or just before release,
then use power accumulator #3 and preserve significant wrist cock and maintain 120 degrees (aprox) just prior to impact over to P4 and this is Mac O Grady stuff. It’s another way of doing things that I don’t see other TGM instructors addressing unless they are coming out of MORAD.

One works in a circle. The other a straighter line. Different (and incompatible) power actions and drag or drive geometry. This is what tree chopping can teach anyone to feel the difference. Only with educated hands can you strike what you are really aiming at with any consistency.

Understood.

Uneducated hands are Dead Hands.

I know what you are getting at, but Doyle and McHatton would disagree, because it takes education to set them in the right position at the top, to then drag the dead hands down into the release zone and into impact. They would teach using different wrist positions at the top to create different ball flights.. I am not thrilled with that idea, but it had some merit I suppose.

Lags hands are no way dumb. They are driven through impact to BAS on the fastest pivot motion that he can employ – to prevent slowing down prior to impact. That may mean as a Hitter that his pivot is way faster than many other hitters out there as he has learned to do it faster than the average bear.

And this gets back to how do you do this? A post impact form 1 pivot driven lever..

Why would you want both arms pinned to your body? Girls throw that way. It is not a pretty sight.

I’ll be the first to admit beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I like the feeling of a Hogan type post impact pivot thrust with the arms pulling against CF rather than driving or dumping the arms out too soon. Like Hogan’s idol Bill Mehlhorn said, you can move things faster in smaller tighter circles. Spin a rock around on a string, the shorter the string the faster you can rotate it. Simple stuff, and nothing new.

Loren.. thanks for the references.. my book has all those quotes..

6-A-2, 6-B-1, 6-B-4 That’s Homer talking about the pivot moving the lever assemblies on the downswing..to the release point.. not using a form 1 lever to drive the Master Lever Assembly post impact which is what I am talking about.

Does your book's 6-A-3 say: ’ÄúThis assembly is normally driven by the hands. That is, accumulators and pressure points #2 and/or #3.”?

yes, and my students use this to the MAX to create speed and acceleration of Homer’s secondary lever assembly. Great stuff here for sure… we call this the load at the P3 4:30 line.

6-A-3 : This refers to two areas. Firstly #2 is the wrist cock which is either CF OR right arm thrust – one exclusive to the others. Second is the Role Rate of the FLW – linked to Manipulated Hand Action as per Hinge action.

This is great stuff. Push or Pull as this is totally part of this ref. via the use of #2. Cannot be both.

You are a very patient man Lag…. you write with humility and never seem to push anyone’s buttons or get upset with your way of words.

You have GIVEN AWAY FOR $0 on this site more information than Harmon, Lead and others charge tens of thousands for

People will never understand there IS a huge difference between words in a book and what is actually happening come sunday afternoon on the back nine…. I know from experience that what you say is correct- I am sick of watching you take criticism for being correct…I am going to stick to trivia here now.
You give people ALL the knowledge in the world and they still want to tear it down- these people all think you are wrong because they all couldn’t hit a cow’s ass with a banjo and don’t know what PURE actually feels and sounds like- ridiculous

I don't think any of the bank managers of successful golfers care if they hit or swing – not too sure why everyone gets so obsessed with it all
plenty of supposed ‘great swings' left the tours swiftly and others with ‘ugly' swings are still wiping their rear ends with $20 notes

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

That could well be the best post on this entire site.

Hey Lag. How does the lever work when the fulcrum is flexible like the left shoulder. I suppose it is like an elastic beam, you still get the transfer of force but you’ll also get some delay (lag!) and then whipping action. More power at certain points than a rigid beam would have?

Thanks Lag.

Once I was blind, but now I see…

Amazing Grace.

If you have spent any considerable amount of time trying to apply the TGM of the Doyle/McHatton camp to tournament play it should becomes clear to you that Lagpressure knows what he is talking about.

Those that continually defend to the reference number, a book written by a 20 handicapper at best, have obviously never played at the top level of competition with any real success.

Homer did a great job of cataloging the golf swing externally, but really didn’t have a clue what was going on from the internal point of view.

Homer said it himself, that he wrote the majority of the book while LOOKING at pictures of Hogan and Snead and ignoring what they said they did, in their swings.

Being able to quote the reference number of a passage in TGM doesn’t mean it has any validity in the real world of PURE ball striking.

Lag please keep up the battle to enlighten the Dogma Worshiping TGM followers.

No argument with your take on Doyle/McHatton.

When the subject is TGM, the book, and “What does it say. What does it mean? Is there more material in later editions? What does it not say? Why not?”, it is necessary to quote passages with reference numbers. It is readers of TGM talking with each other.

I don’t see dogma worship. I see a quest for understanding through geometry and physics starting within the framework of TGM’s descriptions. There are few other places to start with that basis. Maybe the double pendulum or trebuchet model, supposedly de-bunked by Dr. J. Kuykendall, who also says the golf swing does not follow the law of the flail, and claims Moe Norman as his alone, as does Mark Evershed.

Instructors sometimes create dogma with their favorite component variations resulting in methods, changing things for you that didn’t need changing with no understanding or communication of why.

You have GIVEN AWAY FOR $0 on this site more information than Harmon, Lead and others charge tens of thousands for

You said it, Shome, Lag is a class act. And I don’t reckon Harmon or Lead would have close to his amount of knowledge to charge for, never mind to give away for free! Maybe they know they’re getting away with murder which is why they charge so much.
I would have to add as one who learns a lot around here, that the same goes for Guru, Dart et al. This place is a gift on all sides for the passionate and inquisitive golfer. I don’t know who gets paid and who doesn’t, but none of us have to open our wallets for this info- remarkable really.
It also seems to me that there’s a hashing out of ideas as opposed to a tearing down- that’s just the way it appears to me. It seems to get tense, but what debate doesn’t? State your case then back it up. The details that disagreements produce are a benefit to us all…
Cheers…

I feel very much like SMTM for Lag. I am amazed at how difficult it is for everybody to understand Lag and feel so fortunate to be one of his early students.
I think Hacking Dog’s dilemma is that he sees levers only as staight forms (despite the froceps image I posted earlier) and then too only one working at a time. Biological machines are more complicated. All three levers work to a varying instance in any golf swing. In Lag’s Machine from P3 its the wrists then booms from impact onwards and he tries to delay the action of the Form 2 lever/right hand upto P4 firing into P5.
I respect Guru and Loren a lot as both are unpretencious teachers of the book. Keep it coming guys and if the decorum is maintained (please continue to do that) this forum has the potential of settling the dilemma of the golf swing to rest.

hacking dog, like you I too have been trying to come to grips with the form 1 lever concept as explained by Lag however if we accept that pivot force is applied at the left hip as in the photo below then it immediately conforms to the form 1 lever definition i.e. the fulcrum is located between the weight and the force.

Wikipedia tells us that the trebuchet is also a form 1 lever and a strobe image of a trebuchet in action produces very similar results to a golf swing.

Hogan may have been trying to tell us the same thing as Lag with his image of the left hip attached to a wall by an elastic strip.

’ÄúImagine that, at address, one end of an elastic strip is fastened to a wall directly behind your left hip and that the other end is fastened to your left hipbone. as the shoulders turn the hips on the backswing, the elastic is stretched with increased tension. when you start turning the hips to the left, the elastic will snap back to the left with tremendous speed. Same thing with the hips. The greater the tension, the faster you can move them. The faster the hips move, the better. They can't go too fast. ’Äú

Everything below the left shoulder is a force, one way or another. The argument seems to be if a lever must be in a straight line for it to be considered a lever- apparently not. Another one is if the fulcrum must be fixed, as clearly the left shoulder isn’t. All arguments are liquid just like the golf swing itself. Ultimately the lever system in the swing can’t be precisely equated to theoretical levers as the motion in the body removes the constants. Their logic can carry over but there is simply no black and white here. And this doesn’t even come close to measuring the coordination or athletic ability of an individual. All of these concepts are frames of reference regardless of how scientifically they’re described- the more precise the better, for sure. But as The Dart said one time, we’re all working with dirty versions of the ideal…..

I don’t see why you guys want to fire the hips so hard… Thats a Kids move! Don’t you see Tiger is trying to create power in different ways now by not firing the hips as soon in the swing and using that to create leverage on compression. Hey by all means fire them hips hard and early and see how long you play golf with out pain.

Many people don’t like the new school of golf, but some might rember when Homer came out with his first book it was not recepted well either and look at it now. Hey I have a TV with a turn dial, a TV with a remote, and now a plazma TV with a remote and TEVO.. They all do the same thing “let me watch TV” but some of the new options are easier than others,
and the instructions are harder to understand. Point is Evolution does not stop even if its not needed, we as humans are inventors and the wheel can always get better but not rounder.

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (1997)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (2000)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (2005)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (2009)

But as The Dart said one time, we're all working with dirty versions of the ideal…..

The trebuchet is probably a dirty version of the ideal also but the fundamental principle of the form 1 lever still applies… does it not?

BurleyGolf
Like all golfers Tiger has options in trying to create power in different ways but I suspect the fundamental principles of the lever systems he utilises do not change either. If so I would like to know how.

In my opinion, Tiger’s swing has not changed for the better. He’s all flash speed now, and flash squaring of the club. I reckon he and Hank have misinterpreted the idea of 3 right hands as a way to close the face as opposed to a way to power the club. His grip is so weak and he’s got such little internal rotation that the outside edge of the system is forced to play MAJOR catch up at the last second in order to direct the ball- his bad drive is more off the map these days that ever before imo. And his good one is considerable shorter. I know it’s probably not fashionable to say it, especially considering that he just won by so many at the weekend, but his golf swing, from a technical perspective, is awful. I’d take a kids interpretation of acceleration over Hank Haney’s anyday!!!

The trebuchet is probably a dirty version of the ideal also but the fundamental principle of the form 1 lever still applies… does it not?

Absolutely the principle still applies, but it’s liquid in it’s formation in terms of how the golf swing applies it. This is my point. It can’t be discounted as a framework just because it’s not executed precisely as it is in it’s original conception.

IDK!!! I like what I have been seeing over the past month in Tigers swing… I made the comment to some that my personal though of his whole issue was the right leg… I said that I would like to see him get the right leg more strait and angled at the top, let the right foot roll instead of coming up, and to get the shoulders square to a little closed @ impact. Tiger knows feel and Hank is not a Feel teacher..

To me this is perfect…

http://www.youtube.com/watc... (2009 Barclays)

Form 3 produces more velocity then form 1. 1 moves more mass than 3. 2 moves more mass than either. What do you need at this time?

Nice to see some emotion and saying what we feel.

Correct is a big word – for whom and when. Correct is different for each person for every step of the way.

Too much medicine or too little at the wrong time could stall G.O.L.Fing progress.

What is the aim anyway; self promotion or the general betterment or something else?

I do agree about getting the right leg a little straighter at the top, and more loaded in on itself. I’m not sure that I’m a huge fan of rolling in on the right foot to start down though. A huge amount of the power of the right side, if not all of it, is based in the front half of the right foot, much like jumping- if you had to jump as high as you could with the tip of your right hand, you’ll extend off front tip of the foot. I think that the first move from the top should be a loading of the front half of the right foot, and not, as is mostly said, loading into the left foot- if the power of the through swing is from the right side, then the beginning of the downswing has to be about loading that right side, not skipping past it. Even that Hogan roll onto the inside of the right foot is sort of unnatural I think. As long as you roll onto the inside front of the right foot then it’s cool I guess…
I just really don’t like how he’s swinging it now, though. Every swing he makes looks like a big late save to me, even his really good ones. There doesn’t appear to be enough momentum into the back of the ball to me, it’s a big wrap around action at the last minute with not enough solid momentum through the ball. It’s as if his line of compression is non existent, or fleeting at best…..

Just to throw this out there on the Form 1 Primary Lever discussion and apologize if it was already mentioned/could be way off base here…but concerning the Form 1 Lever, if both the weight and the force are equal, there is no motion..If we have a pushing/hitting force and an equal Master Pulling force with one Form 1 lever, then why would we have any motion/rotation?

Or are we just saying there are two Primary Form 1 Levers with the same fulcrum point ((One in the Northern Hemisphere (Pre-impact) and one in the Southern Hemisphere (Post Impact))..They work together to make the world (golf swing rotate) go around…ACC's #1,2, &3 push before impact and #4 is pulled while #1 continues to push post impact for the hitter…More like how the desired rotational motion is in the same direction as a simultaneously pushing or pulling on a fan blade..

Obviously there are Secondary Levers too which is another discussion

In my arrogant opinion: (Ed.)

IMO, what Doyle/McHatton have done wrong is failed to maintain Extensor Action in the interest of avoiding right wrist flattening, fat or thin shots, or right hand helping, steering. They forgot right arm participation.

Ben Doyle: “The club should come to an acquired stop as a by-product. Don’t you see that there’s no adding, with the hands?
I push you by walking, not with my hands, like pushing a shopping cart.”

They’ve turned hands-controlled into pivot-controlled with the hip action triggering a non-automatic snap release. (It could’ve been automatic by holding a Wrist Throw trigger, the hip action occurring earlier and not being used as the release trigger. There’s no Hip Throw release trigger in the book.)

It’s a CF “pure” swing, dead hands once the release is triggered, not the preferred TGM swing for precision control. The thrust has not continued down, out and forward to both arms straight. They have arched left wrists, too much so, clubface control is not what it should be and they’re off-plane in the through-swing. The #3 accum should never be out of line. (Clubshaft in-line relationship to the left arm, at an angle in the vertical plane of wristcock motion. The Left Arm Flying Wedge.)

They’ve failed to allow Right Arm participation and the Magic of the Right Forearm control (7-3), as per 1-F: “Whether its participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually because in either case the left arm is always swinging and the right forearm is always driving.” (excluding the Right Arm swing.)
There’s no accum #3 roll control and thus no alternative hinge action, Rhythm control. The Finish swivel is an oh-by-the-way forced action, un-prepped.

Extensor Action should never be released until the left arm folds in Finish. There is no way you could “come to an acquired stop as a byproduct.”

This leads to an incorrect impression of TGM’s swinging procedure, thinking dead hands and an off-plane through-swing.

Loren,

I am glad you said that. It helps me see them clearer.

It got updated.

Added “The #3 accum should never be out of line. (Clubshaft in-line relationship to the left arm, at an angle in the vertical plane of wristcock motion. The Left Arm Flying Wedge.)”

Thanks, Dart.

For clarification from my point of view.

It is not a pivot driven Form 1 Lever. There are a few muscles that are on top of your left shoulder that can move the shoulder as a Form 1 Lever. They are weak and small. The pivot cannot influence anything that is above your shoulder (physically above it). The pivot would have to be able to create a force above your shoulder for a Form 1 Lever. The definition of a Lever is that work is done by using a force that is some distance from the fulcrum. Lag keeps saying that the pivot can power by using a Form 1 Lever and then talks about it acting thru the shoulder. This is a contradiction of a LEVER. A lever never has a force thru the fulcrum to do work.

A Lever does not have to be straight.

The fulcrum does not have to be motionless.

I happen to agree with Lag very much and have been trying to help guide him through his thoughts. He is adamant that it must be a pivot driven Form 1 Lever. It isn’t.

Does moving the fulcrum cause motion, YES! This is where I wanted Lag to go. Motion, Acceleration, Deceleration can and will be caused by moving the fulcrum. Anytime you add energy into a system, there will be a reaction of some sort. It is the movement of the lead shoulder (fulcrum) that can add a lot of energy into a golf swing along with the other available power sources. Movement of the lead shoulder is accomplished with the pivot. I don’t know the yellow book enough to know if this is covered or not. If anyone finds this interesting, you can discuss whether or not Homer included this.

If you want to see how much energy can be added into a swing by the movement of the lead shoulder watch some clips of Jamie Sandowski(sp), the current long drive champion.

Thanks.

I’m no geometrist (?) but is it possible the system, our body/swing, contains more than one fulcrum and that the force/speed steps up as it moves through the chain? Bio (wish he could chime in here) has talked of a kinetic link that moves from the feet right through to the club head, all along the way the transfer of speed/energy is increasing, there is no “one” area of transfer, it’s a chain? I’m finding this thread fascinating BTW, in a little deep though : )

I would agree with those thoughts, Stinkler, there are more than one or even a few links in the chain. I do like the idea of simplifying it for the sake of learning though- the game can drive us crazy enough with one fulcrum, never mind if we got into the details!
This may have been covered before, but it seems that the more educated the hands become, the more the swing feels like it’s pivot controlled- in that it can feel as simple as a couple of twists or turns once the hard work of hand education has has been done. And this in turn explains why the hands have to teach the pivot to begin with, because some day it will be the leader and and has to know the right moves. Father and Son stuff. This may be TGM 101, but the thought crossed my mind..

A good mind.

Thanks, Loren!

Mm, since I’m actually in the middle of this education process I’ll post my thoughts as a learner. I started this year with no knowledge at all of what was supposed with the hands. A good friend introduced me to some basic TGM ideals with the hands, from there I got to this site and learned about hinges etc. This is all fine and dandy but I had terrible movement patterns. Wouldn’t matter if I had a FLW with any hinge as it was in a different position each time due to my random pivot anyhow! I bit the bullet and had a screening, thinking I want to know what my body must do. Now through that process I could see what I was doing and what I needed to in fact do. Working on my ‘pivot’ through the PST developed (is developing sorry) a powerful repetitive swing that when done properly RESULTS in a FLW and sustained lag to late/snap release. From there I can use my hinges (better as I educate them through basic motion) and control the flight. There is NO way I could get to there by trying to teach the pivot with my hands. Sure they end up the ‘boss’ so to speak but I believe they themselves become educated by the pivot. Of course disclaimer, I am in the process so this is how I feel now.

Great stuff, Stinkler… this is probably why there is no one answer to all of this- people learn differently. We’re starting to figure it out in the education system so why not everywhere else. I know guys from school who were considered below average intelligence because they couldn’t get their heads around equations that are now wealthy carpenters. Everyone is different I suppose. Some people have artistic tendencies while others build sky scrapers. Maybe aptitude tests have to be done on pupils before deciding how best to proceed with teaching them… fascinating stuff!

In my arrogant opinion:

What Doyle/McHatton have done wrong is failed to maintain Extensor Action in the interest of avoiding right wrist flattening, fat or thin shots, or right hand helping, steering. They forgot right arm participation.

Loren have you ever taken a lesson from McHatton?

Take a look at this video, this is all you will work on until you can perform it correctly.

http://www.theswingcode.com...

If that is a lack of extensor action, then its time for a stronger pair of lenses.

I have work with McHatton on and off for 20+ years and he is Hands Controlled Pivot with a very strong right arm participation. You need lots of extensor action to float load and retain that load as deep into impact as McHatton does, otherwise you wouldhave a broken left wrist with that amount of force.

I don't think any of the bank managers of successful golfers care if they hit or swing – not too sure why everyone gets so obsessed with it all

I have 258 type 3 levers in my body which can increase speed but not force; 1 type 1 for nodding my head and a type 2 driven by my achilles tendon.

However I have learned that if I think of an extension of my left arm going through my left shoulder dragged by a rocket sled away from the target it helps a bit. I normally call this maximum radius but why let facts get in the way of A GOOD GOLFING PICTURE.

Homers major goal was to standardise golfing nomenclature and terminology so as we could all think and talk more in depth and with more precision.

It is starting to happen.

Hi, I am new to the forum but have been reading for a few years. I feel like I know some of you on here from reading your posts for so long. I am 47 and been playing on and off for 12 years. currently a 23 handicap, and that is actually an improvement,....probably closer to 30 for most of my golfing life. Only in the last several years has breaking a hundred become the rule rather than the exception. So I was not born with a gift for golf, only a passion…..such is life. I have broken 90 only twice and that was this year. I really feel like I am on the verge of posting scores in the 80’s regularly now.

Reading TGM concepts on here started me on a long journey of learning and experimenting with my swing. I have read (not the book) but many articles on TGM theory with the pressure points and accumulators. It was this studying that led me to start to change from a swinger and/or switter to a hitter almost 2 years ago. I am just starting to see some results, but am still playing around with some parts of my swing. (I always am). The last month or so has been with trying to feel the lag, which has felt like an epiphany.

I realize that I have never tried to be concious of the pressure in my hands before…. I was always more focused on swing plane and positions.

The biggest benefit to staying focused on my hands seems to be timing….for me to feel the pressure on the base of my right index finger in the downswing properly (which I think should be a slow build up of pressure until impact, or even after). I cannot do that if I go out of sequence. it is soooo much easier to just sense that pressure than to try to time things based on where my shoulders, or hips or arms are

I am not sure if I am fully on track here, but I really feel I am onto something. I have been to the driving range 5 times with this concept in mind, and have hit more consistent than ever before.

I have had many occasions where I felt like, “hey, this is a big breakthrough”, only to find the results fade after a while.

I am wanting to hear feedback about the feeling of lagging properly, but not sure what to ask for. Perhaps some of you could share what lagging the club properly feels like for you.

Also can anyone tell me the “feeling” of float loading, versus drive loading. It seems like the only differance would be a pause at the transition?

Thanks for reading, and thanks for endless amounts of free advice that is contained on this site…...Brian

Hi, I am new to the forum but have been reading for a few years. I feel like I know some of you on here from reading your posts for so long. I am 47 and been playing on and off for 12 years. currently a 23 handicap, and that is actually an improvement,....probably closer to 30 for most of my golfing life. Only in the last several years has breaking a hundred become the rule rather than the exception. So I was not born with a gift for golf, only a passion…..such is life. I have broken 90 only twice and that was this year. I really feel like I am on the verge of posting scores in the 80's regularly now.

Reading TGM concepts on here started me on a long journey of learning and experimenting with my swing. I have read (not the book) but many articles on TGM theory with the pressure points and accumulators. It was this studying that led me to start to change from a swinger and/or switter to a hitter almost 2 years ago. I am just starting to see some results, but am still playing around with some parts of my swing. (I always am). The last month or so has been with trying to feel the lag, which has felt like an epiphany.

I realize that I have never tried to be concious of the pressure in my hands before…. I was always more focused on swing plane and positions.

The biggest benefit to staying focused on my hands seems to be timing….for me to feel the pressure on the base of my right index finger in the downswing properly (which I think should be a slow build up of pressure until impact, or even after). I cannot do that if I go out of sequence. it is soooo much easier to just sense that pressure than to try to time things based on where my shoulders, or hips or arms are

I am not sure if I am fully on track here, but I really feel I am onto something. I have been to the driving range 5 times with this concept in mind, and have hit more consistent than ever before.

I have had many occasions where I felt like, ’Äúhey, this is a big breakthrough”, only to find the results fade after a while.

I am wanting to hear feedback about the feeling of lagging properly, but not sure what to ask for. Perhaps some of you could share what lagging the club properly feels like for you.

Also can anyone tell me the ’Äúfeeling” of float loading, versus drive loading. It seems like the only differance would be a pause at the transition?

Thanks for reading, and thanks for endless amounts of free advice that is contained on this site……Brian

Brian,

What a wonderful post of your journey!

I really like the way you are discussing this, IMHO, you would improve by leaps and bounds if you started getting help from a teacher who understands the machine, it is too difficult to improve without help!

=============================================
Homer Kelley:
The program for solid progress is the acquisition of one factor at a time. Starting any place. But preferably at one end of the machine or the other – the clubface or the feet. Preferably the feet. At the Driving Range or Golf Course. Preferably at the Driving Range. With or without professional instruction. Preferable with. Advisedly with! Imploredly with!!!
=============================================

Kevin

Thanks Kevin for your reply…..In the time I started studying TGM, I have had 7 lessons, 4 with one and 3 with the next teacher, both working together at the same range. They both knew Kelly and very much enjoyed the concepts I was bringing to them. I was emailing them papers I found from links off of this board. They both helped me greatly in my understanding of the golf swing. In particular the second instructor got my lower body more stable. For the past year I have gone on my own in an effort to find exactly what would work best for me. I think working on my own has allowed me to take it to another level….I have learned to do some self diagnosis.

Now that I have reached another level of understanding, I do agree that I need someone to help me take that next step….or at least verify that what I have created on my own is not inherently flawed in some way.

My question now is to stay with the same guys or someone new in an effort to get a differing viewpoint….not really sure how to assess that

tx:if you have a good relationship with your current coach/s that is a v good thing to have. Its even better if they understand the info you are presenting them with. If you are getting mixed signals from them, maybe time to search for a more TGM savy fellow to build your game on.

It seems I am often painted as the heretic of TGM. The word heretic by definition has a religious connotation:

“A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of a religious establishment”

If TGM has tilted from Science to Religion, Homer I can assure you is spinning in his grave.

If that is the case, I will proudly wear the heretic cap, but I won’t sit quietly in the corner either.

The pathway of the development of science has been littered with heretics, from Aristotle to Galileo, Newton to Einstein.

For TGM to not fully embrace the scientific method tosses The Yellow Book right into the open mouth of Dogma.

Let’s apply the scientific method to TGM in comparing Brian Gay to Ben Hogan

Observation: Two very different golf swings that have won on tour.

Question: Are different forces at work to produce these two very different golf swings?

Hypothesis: By resisting the forces of CF, a player would have to feel great pressure in the right elbow to keep the hands close to the body. By consciously keeping the arms pinned to the body, forces would also be felt in a very strong resiting way in the armpits. Resisting the full uncocking of the wrists and keeping the right arm bent longer inhibits rapid closing of the clubface.

Experiment: Golf balls are struck by former tour player both ways and taped with a high speed camera.

Results: Expected results match actual results.

Conclusion: The hypothesis is supported. Resiting the outward pull of the club’s CF, strong pressures are experienced in the tour player’s right elbow and armpits. Flying the arms off the body in the other method closes the clubface much more quickly as predicted.
Both methods can produce quality golf shots.

Hypothesis: Is supported

Gay: Hitter – straight line path out to right field Thrust
Hogan: Swinger – arc path around the body CF

It seems I am often painted as the heretic of TGM. The word heretic by definition has a religious connotation:

’ÄúA person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of a religious establishment”

If TGM has tilted from Science to Religion, Homer I can assure you is spinning in his grave.

If that is the case, I will proudly wear the heretic cap, but I won't sit quietly in the corner either.

The pathway of the development of science has been littered with heretics, from Aristotle to Galileo, Newton to Einstein.

For TGM to not fully embrace the scientific method tosses The Yellow Book right into the open mouth of Dogma.

Let's apply the scientific method to TGM in comparing Brian Gay to Ben Hogan

Observation: Two very different golf swings that have won on tour.

Question: Are different forces at work to produce these two very different golf swings?

Hypothesis: By resisting the forces of CF, a player would have to feel great pressure in the right elbow to keep the hands close to the body. By consciously keeping the arms pinned to the body, forces would also be felt in a very strong resiting way in the armpits. Resisting the full uncocking of the wrists and keeping the right arm bent longer inhibits rapid closing of the clubface.

Experiment: Golf balls are struck by former tour player both ways and taped with a high speed camera.

Results: Expected results match actual results.

Conclusion: The hypothesis is supported. Resiting the outward pull of the club's CF, strong pressures are experienced in the tour player's right elbow and armpits. Flying the arms off the body in the other method closes the clubface much more quickly as predicted.
Both methods can produce quality golf shots.

Hypothesis: Is supported

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Have you considered that the lower plane angle of Hogan, hand path , cogs moving forward and being much more forward with his power package , than yourself. Check your head / beltline positions / hand path against Hogan, chalk and cheese
that all that Hitting business was necessary for yourself rather than Hogan…
I dont see the logic in putting a player in a certain cage . Particularly ones who have all the shots

Hinge motion was horizontal in a lot of swings, lower plane angle and other factors slow the closing rate of face down, dont mean its not pure CF swinging

CAEDUS,

I have zero idea what you just said…
Not sure you understood the above post… but that is not my golf swing, that is Brian Gay’s.

Regarding Gay’s swing,

2 – M -4

Homer says:

Inertia holds the left arm against the chest while the body turn is accelerating it, then momentum can sustain it giving the feeling of left arm power. Consider this pivot thrust as body power blasting a swingers inert left arm into orbit toward impact. Or the pivot supplies the initial acceleration of the hitters loaded power package so the clubhead can be endowed with pivot speed PLUS right triceps speed.

This is exactly what Gay is doing.

It’s quite clear that Homer is suggesting that either hitting or swinging, the arms are thrust off the body even before impact.

Homer saying the arms are blasted into orbit toward impact certainly suggests this is happening before impact and not after. “Toward” must imply before.. or it’s a typo.

Hogan is CLEARLY not blasting his arms off his chest into impact..not during nor anytime soon after.. something radically different is going on here.

Hogans right arm was also much more passive through impact than say Gay’s.

We see an angle hinge with Hogan, and we see a full roll with Gay.

Homer certainly liked the angled hinge for drive loading (hitting) so much that he quotes in 12-1-0 his basic hitting pattern that an angled hinge is the protocol of choice, and “most useful for the strongest players”

No doubt that Hogan’s action was much stronger than Gay’s.

Gay on the other hand has a fully rolled clubface at the same point that Homer sugests checking hinge action with the club about 45 degrees past impact. Looks rolled to me, just like Moe.

Gay’s swing looks a lot like Moe Norman, swinging on a turned shoulder plane. Very good physics and geometry to do so, because CF is seeking an inline position of the clubshaft and the left arm… exactly what we see here.

2-K
Homer says “Rotation induces a throw out action PULLING the centers of gravity of every movable component IN LINE and ON PLANE”.

The golf swings of Gay and Moe do this very well…not only is the left arm and shaft finding inline from a front or caddy view, they do this also from a down the line view. This is really good stuff, and I admire them both for going this route… however, Gay lacks Moe’s tremendous post impact pivot thrust that we talked about earlier by the application of a pivot driven form 1 lever.

I can buy that Gay is a hitter in Homer’s terminology, because he releases his right arm very early and actively, much different than Moe did. Even though they are both swinging on a shoulder plane, Moe’s hands released and rolled much faster do to passivity in the wrists.

Now, getting back to Hogan, I see nowhere in TGM that would suggest or otherwise promote pinning the arms upon the body, and resisting the tremendous forces that are trying so hard to pull the clubshaft into an inline position as we see with Gay and many other players.

The angle of the left arm and the clubshaft are maintained from before impact, during impact, and well beyond. CF does not want this to happen. To do this puts great pressure in the armpits, resisting the outward throw of the club, and the right elbow is resisting straightening also.. there is much resiting pressure in the right elbow.

We can see that Gay’s right arm is spent quickly after impact, there is zero resistance going on.. whether or not his elbow is actively driving, which it appears to be, or passively being pulled inline, it is completely different protocol to what we see with Hogan.

My point is really this..

How does TGM catalog Hogan’s golf swing, that is resisting CF instead of seeking full inline extension quickly post impact?

There are a lot of photos of Hogan with a slightly bent left arm even at impact.. and a lot of photos of both arms bent post impact. We don’t see the big extension of Hogan’s right arm till much later than most golfers, even touring pros.

The key is understanding the physics behind the geometry.

So if the right arm is not actively participating through impact, then what is making up for it?

The Pivot? Faster rotational speed?..A post impact accelerating pivot thrust?

1-F Homer says..

“The mystery of THE MECHANICS of golf fades away when right arm participation is understood.”

I could not agree more.

Homer certainly acknowledges that the pivot thrust does have the potential to drive the #4 pressure point THROUGH impact (2-M-3), and I am glad he used the word “THROUGH” because through and thrust suggest the correct link here. This is the link that justifies TGM having some kind of handle on a pivot driven form 1 lever that is consistent and supported by some of the games finest ball strikers..
hit or swing..

Anyway…

Just a quick note..

I am in no way suggesting that other methods or swing patterns of TGM are not valid..

Teachings of Guru, Dart, Lynn Blake, McHatton, Ben Doyle, have all produced fine students. There is no undermining here, just hopefully intelligent.. possibly thought provoking respectful discussion.

Although I do feel Homer may have missed a couple things here and there, I am still a fan of his work and support TGM the best I can… and I feel I do that here…. backing up my take on his work with direct quotes from the man himself.

The highly promoted “release” technique most TGM instructors seem to gravitate towards other than Gay, would be similar to Mickleson, Mark O’Meara, VJ, Nicklaus, Tommy Armour lll, Couples, Elkington, Baker Finch, David Graham, just quickly off the top of my head.

But TGM as written, should be comprehensive as a text or encyclopedia of options.. so I put forth things here to suggest some of these other options that Homer may or may not have offered as much clarity upon as he might have or could have.

I have seen your swings on youtube. What I am saying is that in your eyes it appears that Hogan is using an angle hinge / sure in some shots however to some other observers view him in other cases as using a full flail / with horizontal hinge / although the closing rate of the face was slower due to the factors / cog transfer left / power package location / hand path / beltline ( stand up motion / spine extending which you call the 5th accumulator )

Anyways most the stuff you write is a good read / some good info out there if you look

The pressure / arms tight to the body can often be overdone / swing on the plane Hogan did with tilted motion and no arm lifting and they are close to the body, but there is still air when no cashmere sweater is in the way

pics above shows the left arm moving more off the body

You’re talking pre impact, I am talking post impact..

opposite sides of the swing globe.

I don’t teach it nor do I keep the arms tight on the body on the downswing either. The arms need clearance to deliver the club.
Post impact, different ways of doing it.. I can do it both ways no problem..

I like Hogan’s way much better.

I don't teach it nor do I keep the arms tight on the body on the downswing either. The arms need clearance to deliver the club.
Post impact, different ways of doing it.. I can do it both ways no problem..

I like Hogan's way much better.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

left arm slows/ spine extension happens/ belt line goes up/forward as a result the left arm connects up from impact on

why would a hitter want 3 right hands?

“Why would a hitter want 3 right hands”....

Because he can…........

Arms look pinned in these photos- fighting the CF forces- and trying to gain more speed and certainly more control beyond impact

CF swingers throws their arms out and up after impact and fold into a non accelerating drop..because their power sources are spent…..not Hogan
The throwers don’t want 3 right hands because you will be looking for balls all day. Throwing the force is an easy thing to do- but it causes much head manipulation and closing of the face and that’s why consistency is hard to stay on top of.
Most of he best day in day out strikers of the ball- Hogan, Kite, Miller, Faldo, Furyk all fight or fought the force and rarely have off days with their hitting capabilities

Is it co-incidence that throwing out at the ball makes these players (even as talented as they are)...hit around 50% of fairways between them for an entire season

I don’t want any more right hands (left hand for Mickelson) swinging like this because I will be re-teeing it on every hole for a lost ball

There’s a huge difference between those and this- which brings not only power because the power source is still firing right up thru and beyond the strike- but accuracy and control

I asked Mac O’Grady to boil Hitting and Swinging down to a few words, his response was to hit two golf balls…

The first was a SWING and he said “Out to Right Field”.

The second was a HIT and he said “Around the Corner”.

He was speaking to me about the feeling he had in his HANDS and what his Pivot was doing.

This seems to fit nicely with what Lappressure says he does and what Hogan looks like he does. Almost every TGM guy I have spoken with, seems to get these backwards, but they are usually just book quoters with at best, average ball striking skills.

Mac, Lag and Shome know what they are talking about because their ball striking is at a much higher level than most. If you know you know, if you don’t you won’t, until you can.

Keep listening to Lag and maybe the accidental swing that differentiates Hitting from Swinging will appear.

Hogan is a Hitter that looks like a Swing.
Gay is a Swinger that looks like a Hit.

Comparing Hogan with Gay is comical in that you have a Cannon Hit compared to a pop gun Swing. Hogan could out drive Gay with an old 3 iron and a balata against Gay’s modern driver and ball.

The difference is seen thru Impact and Post-Impact.

Like Lag said, P3 to P4 is where the Golf Swing lives.

And what happens after P4 tells you how good you really are.

Drive the Pivot with the intention of never dumping any of that stored up Lag.

Homer did not have the Insight of being a pure ball striker and could only “Look, Look, Look”, but that only tells half the story and that is why, what Lag is doing here, is So Important.

Wabisabi, Lag and Shome,

ISG endeavours to cater to all levels of golfing ability. Mostly enthusiastic 15 H,cap players at the top of the bell curve.

All lessons are not the same even for one person going from learner to Champ.

I don’t care if the teacher is Ben Hogan or a hacker if they don’t understand what the gradient scale of learning and swing evolution is they will fail the pupil.

Golf swings evolve from sweep half body motions to possibly snap full body movements. Trying to lay Lags action (top end highly developed and high maintenance) on our average reader is golfing suicide.

Another failure is the last thing they need.

And I for one can’t abide it.

Dart,

The reason the average score of 97 in the US hasn’t change in the last 75 years is because of the very thing you speak.

Instructors are not willing to place before their students what is an “Ideal Mechanical Advantage” and allow them to fail.

Until they can at least demonstrate proper kinetic linking and a Pivot driven Golf Swing, there is no place else to go.

Anyone that is a 15 H and has played golf for at least 2 years has reached their Genetic Timing Barrier. They will never improve unless they begin to work on proper body motion and deliver the hands thru Impact and beyond with a Powerful Pivot.

Homer’s listed “Three Zones” has the Pivot as # 1 for a reason and the Hands last at # 3.

9-2. Middle of second paragraph:

“Good Golf is Power Golf—don’t be mislead by “Accuracy” problems. As you master Clubhead Control (Power) you will gain a basic Clubface Control (Accuracy)—Zone # 3 can never be any better than its Zones # 1 and # 2 support. Remove all pressures against “Power First”. Power techniques are Power Control.”

Hogan is a Hitter that looks like a Swing.
Gay is a Swinger that looks like a Hit.

Comparing Hogan with Gay is comical in that you have a Cannon Hit compared to a pop gun Swing. Hogan could out drive Gay with an old 3 iron and a balata against Gay's modern driver and ball.

The difference is seen thru Impact and Post-Impact.

Like Lag said, P3 to P4 is where the Golf Swing lives.

And what happens after P4 tells you how good you really are.

Drive the Pivot with the intention of never dumping any of that stored up Lag.

Homer did not have the Insight of being a pure ball striker and could only ’ÄúLook, Look, Look”, but that only tells half the story and that is why, what Lag is doing here, is So Important.

Lots of people compare themselves to Hogan / with secrets / these days / thats the comedy
whats p3 to p4/ you mean p7 to p9 / since you quote Mac saying stuff/ ramping up the pivot from p7 to p9 is nothing new ….its called the friggin tailbone releasing / you guys know squat about what mac teaches

Caedus- Enlighten us with your knowledge
All we have read in your 6 posts are remarks about how we all know nothing …..

Caedus- Enlighten us with your knowledge
All we have read in your 6 posts are remarks about how we all know nothing …..

’ÄúNow I know why Tigers eat their young”

When did I state you know nothing in 6 posts/ I stated in reference to what mac teaches
I’m not stating what you guys write is bad/ its just not facts of what Homer Kelley / TGM and defining hitting/swinging
Hogan a hitter/ in your mind / not in TGM definition / whatever makes you happy

Cad: Not many do know what MacO teaches unless you go to see him and seems you need to do a secret squirrel job about the info. That is not saying anything against what he teaches but it makes it impossible for others to learn anything useful.

Wabi: Learning the zones. Without doing so rhythm and co-ordination go out the window. How can anyone ever learn educated hands if they look like Gumby. That goes for swinging or hitting.

Gay vs Hogan: Whats the hang up with Gay being seen as a model swing(hit). It’s his motion. Its not classic but it works for HIM. Many have tried to mimic Hogan and died with it. Thats coz it worked for HIM.

Its the point of TGM. Finding your own pattern that uses the mechanical advantaged that you can handle without breakdown.

Dart,

As professional to professional, I do respect your ideas, and I am certain you are a wonderful instructor that has helped thousands of golfers over the years with your own and TGM concepts.

However, a claim that my action is “high maintenance” as you suggest tastes bad, and seems a bit unfounded due to the fact that I NEVER hit balls, nor do I practice, and might get out once a week for a game at best. I don’t warm up, stretch, just a few bag hits to flow a little blood into my hands. Hardly high maintenance.

I actually enjoy the challenge of stepping out of the car, walking to the first tee, pulling out a persimmon, and piping one down the middle. That in itself speaks a thousand words to me that my technique is rock solid stuff.

Let’s find peace in knowing we don’t know each others methods for instruction.

I have three students whom have gone from 14 to 16 markers down to 9, 8 and 7 within 4 months. That is unusual, but it is also reality.

I have been more than respectful to everyone here.

Now in a positive note..

I would love to hear your “gradient scale of learning and swing evolution” theories.

I tell my students that if we can change our biomechanical swing DNA 2% a month, that would be excellent. It would not be easily visible to an untrained eye, but over the course of a year, you would be looking at a 24% improvement in the golf swing from starting point A. I have found this to be realistically achievable.

CAEDUS,

I can back most everything I say up with TGM scripture and often I do. Try me out..

Mac, on the other hand, I haven’t spoke with since 1991. I know he has some new terminology, but his idea on hitting and swinging as wabisabi mentioned is what he was talking about back then.

Mac and I differ (who cares really) on what I call: Address – P1 – P2 – P3 – impact – P4 – PV5

Parallel 1 is on the backswing, Parallel two being roughly the top,
P3 being where the shaft would be parallel to the ground just before impact, P4 is the parallel after impact, PV5 is the shaft vertical before finish swivel..

Mac has 10 or 11 positions including all the vertical positions. His is more exacting… and a bit more confusing than I feel is necessary.

If I need to reference something specific, I might suggest P3.5

It’s not big deal really.. as long as we can communicate with the student, that is the main concern.

I have heard Mac has mellowed out a bit, but in the past, there was not much talking to Mac only listening. He rarely answers your questions directly… Moe was like that too..

I do have a lot of respect for Mac on many levels, especially his willingness to fight for his ideals against whatever establishment he is set on taking down. I wish more people would walk their talk. The world would be a much better place… “MacWorld”

Lagpressure

Thanks for clearing up the mac stuff/ being long ago

Can you define #3 accum and its relationship to sweetspot plane / so #2 can uncock and there is no disruption of #3 since the hinge motion and roll out #3 become the same

I am going to just guess that Dart is referring to how many barrels are being used and having to be learned all at full speed.

Lag

Please be more selective and ignore the kibitzers. Tell us what you believe is correct without allowing yourself to be diverted by the naysayers. There are those of us who very much want to hear what you have to say without chasing every red herring laid by those whose objectives appear not to assist and inform but rather to hamper and derail.

“Trying to approach the top level of performance when we should be aiming for better is a cruel task to force on anyone.”

That’s a pretty defeatist, paternalistic view of golf instruction. Why should teachers strive merely for an incremental rise in mediocrity? Maybe I’m unique, but that’s certainly not a teaching philosphy I would be interested in investing in.

“Trying to lay Lags action (top end highly developed and high maintenance) on our average reader is golfing suicide.”

I’m most definitely average, but still happily alive in the golfing sense, I assure you. I think even the most average of readers that find their way here from whatever avenue have enough intelligence to evaluate what approach is most viable given their particular circumstances. To suggest that it would be more appropriate for someone else to make that choice or that I should merely settle b/c the arc of my learning has already been pre-determined is beyond insulting. And I for one won’t abide by that.

Cheesedonkey,

When it comes to golfing intelligence, golfers overestimate themselves vastly. When they rate their potential they do the opposite. Golfers have a lot of unevaluated information that they don’t understand let alone apply in an effective way.

Prove it. Ask 10 people what their goals, purpose and plans are and exactly how they are progressing statistically. How do they know when to quit on a line of thinking or practicing and how do they know when something is right. Asking one should do it for you.

We all need help and will never stop learning.

If we did not learn things from someone else like speak and tie shoe laces, we would die stupid, or at least uneducated. It is how well you learn from someone else that makes the difference.

Alec Mercer, the great Aussie coach Elkington and David Graham, said last week “they know a lot of words but they don’t know what they mean”.

And no you are not unique, most think there is some easy way. We have to think we know everything for our egos sake. The improvement stats. tell the truth.

No one starts at the top. No one gets to excellent without going through mediocrity. Plenty fail by bitting off more than they can chew.

I hope you learned something. I did.

Lag

Please be more selective and ignore the kibitzers. Tell us what you believe is correct without allowing yourself to be diverted by the naysayers. There are those of us who very much want to hear what you have to say without chasing every red herring laid by those whose objectives appear not to assist and inform but rather to hamper and derail.

Strav,

Lag has been telling you since 7 May 2008.

Did you miss something?

Dart,

As professional to professional, I do respect your ideas, and I am certain you are a wonderful instructor that has helped thousands of golfers over the years with your own and TGM concepts.

However, a claim that my action is ’Äúhigh maintenance” as you suggest tastes bad, and seems a bit unfounded due to the fact that I NEVER hit balls, nor do I practice, and might get out once a week for a game at best. I don't warm up, stretch, just a few bag hits to flow a little blood into my hands. Hardly high maintenance.

I actually enjoy the challenge of stepping out of the car, walking to the first tee, pulling out a persimmon, and piping one down the middle. That in itself speaks a thousand words to me that my technique is rock solid stuff.

Let's find peace in knowing we don't know each others methods for instruction.

I have three students whom have gone from 14 to 16 markers down to 9, 8 and 7 within 4 months. That is unusual, but it is also reality.

I have been more than respectful to everyone here.

Now in a positive note..

I would love to hear your ’Äúgradient scale of learning and swing evolution” theories.

I tell my students that if we can change our biomechanical swing DNA 2% a month, that would be excellent. It would not be easily visible to an untrained eye, but over the course of a year, you would be looking at a 24% improvement in the golf swing from starting point A. I have found this to be realistically achievable.

Lag Pressure throwaway is the root of all golf's evils

Lag,

I love your swing and it was 30 something years in the building. Well done with those three pupils.

A gradient scale of learning is giving someone something to learn that is wanted and needed. They know what they want and you know what they need. You must both love the coming together of minds.

If the gradient is too steep they will backslide and fail; if it is too flat they will be unchallenged and quit through boredom.

If the correct gradient is struck, light speed absorption and dedicated application is certain. Happy golfer.

Kinetic link or Release Sequences sure – but one at a time. Clubhead, face and shaft control sure – but very simple easy to understand steps

Any piece left out, misunderstood, poorly made, or assembled will come back to haunt you both.

I know you do a wonderful job but Homer (the unforgivable) wanted all coaches, pro or not, to be successful not just one or two.

Where in my post did I say I thought there was a fast and easy way of skipping mediocrity? I don’t think anyone committed to Lag’s course would say it’s easy and I harbor no such illusions.

I’m done with band aids.

Band aids should be banned.

Learning through fleeting feel is doomed. Learn mechanics (which include absolutely the pivot which makes up part of those mechanics) and the feel is the result not the starting place. Life becomes repeatable, or more repeatable no matter what level of precision you start with.

To learn mechanics, start with as few moving parts as possible, not the whole shooting match. Look, Look, Look at a speed you can see what is going on.

Add more moving parts as you go up the power chain. Use whatever method you wish to generate the power as long as it can be delivered on plane, with lag and a FLW.

That is this entire forums goal – to get the points above clearly to as many people playing the game as possible.

Where in my post did I say I thought there was a fast and easy way of skipping mediocrity? I don't think anyone committed to Lag's course would say it's easy and I harbor no such illusions.

I'm done with band aids.

Donkey,

Good luck with the swing implant.

all the bickering should spell the end of this thread- thanks guys

Lags Golf Machine has made a lot out of this site and it seems there are still people who want to whack into it because they supposedly have better tools from a guy who was a hacker who wrote a book 30 years ago with no physical golf training or playing capacity.

Lag’s philosophy is all about muscle training- it is easier than pie to comprehend and work into the system. That’s why he is getting results with his students and not just telling people to flat wrist it with loads and swivels – basic training like that has had little improvement in players abilities..
You can’t just stick your hands/arms/ torso into a position… you train it physically to go where it should
I’ll take Lag’s ideas over ANY I have witnessed in all my years of competitive golf
Lag has always backed up his views with rock solid drills, ideas, visions and playing certification
he has his own great website and forum going… . that’s where I’m headed- where the real learning takes place
I just don’t get the animosity for an idea that works

Just like Gloria Gaynor, this thread will survive.

Thanks, Dart. I know you’re pulling for me.

As for where I fall on your gradient scale of learning, happy golfer.

What’s the problem then?

Capt_Chaos and Waffle_Iron
Gd’ay…I’m Gerry Hogan, I’ve actually been a member here for a while.
I would like to dispel a sad myth; for all of you TGM advocates who continue to claim that I have used TGM as my platform you need to know that I have never read Homer Kelley’s book, The Golfing Machine, nor have I ever had the slightest inclination to do so.
By saying that I mean no disrespect to Homer nor am I passing a judgment on his work/ findings in his book.
The fundamental most critical to my own work, and the aspect that I enforced on myself most severely, was that I would accept nothing, from any person or entity what-so-ever as being either valid, proven or of any use to me.
The last thing that I wanted was other opinions, theories, peer acceptances and the like, I had gone back to a clean slate, by intention.
In summary; I determined that the human mechanical system is a highly complex multi- lever assembly (the rigid bones of the skeletal system) where bones move about joints acting as levers. All bone movement is initiated by and powered by muscle contraction, in response to stimulus through the nervous systems and is controlled by the subconscious brain, were all pre-programming of motion is performed.
Homer was an engineer, by profession, and used the tools of his trade, physics, in his studies. I used the same sets of Laws and principles for the same purposes. I got nothing whatever from My Kelley. I may have moved down parallel pathways to him, from time to time but for very different purposes. The framework of my own mechanical studies was based on:
Newton’s Law of Motion
Laws of Levers and Leverage.
I went much further than that; I didn’t presume that the human brain/ body could automatically perform what my interpretations of mechanical motion may indicate (as Homer did). I studied Human Genetics to try to understand what motions are genetically inherited by humans. I studied brain function, Anatomy, Neurology to try to understand what motions we are actually capable of, and if, in fact, we are capable of executing such extraordinary sequences of motion, as found in Human Performance, in the time frames and circumstances available and in accordance with any given theory.
I didn’t need Homer Kelley and didn’t use one jot of reference to him, had I done so I would have made due mention of that in both my book and video/DVD.
I don’t ever wish to attack My Kelley or his work. Don’t force me to do that to defend myself and my own work by continually suggesting that I used him or stole from him.
I may be able to contribute, from time to time, to your own searches. However I deal only in TRUTHS and FACTS that can be proven, beyond all possible doubt. I am always happy to help where I can but I will not, under any circumstances, enter into arguments and petty squabbles, I have far better to do with my time and energies.
Thank you for the invitation to visit our forum.
Gerry

Wow, a HUGE welcome Gerry, was just checking your Manual the other night, might have to read it again :)
I hope you enjoy your visits here and your request for avoiding squabbles is respected.